:00:39. > :00:42.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.Theresa May unveils plans to build many more affordable homes
:00:46. > :00:48.in England, but with no price tag, timetable or building targets -
:00:49. > :00:55.Labour takes aim at the City with what it calls a Robin Hood Tax
:00:56. > :00:57.to fund public services, but will traders just
:00:58. > :01:01.Don't look at the polls - Jeremy Corbyn, at least,
:01:02. > :01:03.insists he can win this election - so which way will
:01:04. > :01:14.We'll hear from a focus group in Leeds.
:01:15. > :01:19.We look at the Green electoral offer and here, what the parties are
:01:20. > :01:27.saying about tackling the air pollution problem in London.
:01:28. > :01:30.And with me, our own scientifically selected focus group
:01:31. > :01:33.of political pundits - they're not so much
:01:34. > :01:35.undecided as clueless - Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:36. > :01:42.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:43. > :01:44.So, we've got two new policies this morning.
:01:45. > :01:46.Labour say they will introduce a financial transaction tax
:01:47. > :01:49.if they win the general election and what they're calling
:01:50. > :01:51."the biggest crackdown on tax avoidance in the country's history".
:01:52. > :01:53.The Conservatives say they'll work with local authorities in England
:01:54. > :01:55.to build council houses with the right to buy.
:01:56. > :01:58.Theresa May says the policy "will help thousands of people
:01:59. > :02:05.get on the first rung of the housing ladder".
:02:06. > :02:13.Steve, what do you make of them? I have been conditioned after doing
:02:14. > :02:17.tax and spend debates in pre-election periods for many
:02:18. > :02:22.decades to treat policy is not as literal but as arguments. In other
:02:23. > :02:27.words if you look back to 2015 the Tory plan to wipe out the deficit
:02:28. > :02:30.was never going to happen and yet it framed and large event. In that
:02:31. > :02:34.sense the Robin Hood tax is a sensible move for Labour to make at
:02:35. > :02:39.this point because it is part of a narrative of reconfiguring taxation
:02:40. > :02:45.to be fair. Treating it as an argument rather than something that
:02:46. > :02:48.would happen in day one of Labour government is sensible. In terms of
:02:49. > :02:52.building houses Theresa May said right from the beginning when she
:02:53. > :02:55.was in Number Ten that there is a housing deficit in this country
:02:56. > :03:00.rather than the economic deficit George Osborne was focusing on, and
:03:01. > :03:03.this is an example of trying to get house-building going. It seems
:03:04. > :03:07.entirely sensible, not sure how it works with right to buy but again as
:03:08. > :03:17.framing of a 90 minute it makes sense. I disagree with Steve on one
:03:18. > :03:22.front which is how sensible Theresa May's policy is on the housing
:03:23. > :03:24.announcement. I think more broadly these two announcements have
:03:25. > :03:30.something in common which is that over the next 24 hours both will
:03:31. > :03:34.probably unravel in different ways. Ye of little faith! The Mayor of
:03:35. > :03:39.London has already said he doesn't agree with this, and when people see
:03:40. > :03:45.the actual impact of what looks like a populist tax will very potentially
:03:46. > :03:50.affect people's pensions, it might become a lot less popular. On the
:03:51. > :03:55.Tory housing plans, I think it is difficult to imagine how they are
:03:56. > :04:00.going to implement this huge, what looks like a huge land and property
:04:01. > :04:04.grab. Through compulsory purchase orders, which are not a simple
:04:05. > :04:08.instrument. They say they will change the law but really the idea
:04:09. > :04:12.of paying people below the market value for their assets is not
:04:13. > :04:19.something I can see sitting easily with Tory backbenchers or the Tories
:04:20. > :04:24.in the House of Lords. Tom. Both would appear superficially to be
:04:25. > :04:30.appealing to traditional left and traditional right bases. What is
:04:31. > :04:37.more Tory than right to buy, then councils sell on these houses, and
:04:38. > :04:42.Labour slapping a massive tax on the city. The Tories' plan, I would say
:04:43. > :04:46.look a bit deeper and all of the Tory narrative from the last six
:04:47. > :04:50.years which hasn't worked well is talking about the private sector
:04:51. > :04:56.increasing supply in the market. Now Mrs May is talking about the role
:04:57. > :05:01.for the state after all so this is the shift creeping in. On the Labour
:05:02. > :05:08.transaction tax, one of the most interesting things I heard in days
:05:09. > :05:12.was from Paul Mason, former BBC correspondent, now a cog in Easter
:05:13. > :05:17.extreme. On Newsnight he said don't worry about whether the Labour
:05:18. > :05:21.manifesto will add up, I'm promising it will, the bigger Tory attack line
:05:22. > :05:30.should be what on earth will be the macroeconomic effect of taking so
:05:31. > :05:31.much tax out of the system. Very well, we shall see. At least we have
:05:32. > :05:34.some policies to talk about. Now, on Tuesday Labour
:05:35. > :05:36.will launch its manifesto. But we've already got a pretty good
:05:37. > :05:39.idea of what's in it - that's because most of its contents
:05:40. > :05:41.were leaked to the media Labour has a variety of spending
:05:42. > :05:50.pledges including an extra ?6 billion a year for the NHS,
:05:51. > :05:53.an additional ?8 billion for social care over the lifetime
:05:54. > :05:55.of the next parliament, as well as a ?250 billion
:05:56. > :05:57.in infrastructure over The party will support the renewal
:05:58. > :06:04.of the Trident submarine system, although any Prime Minister should
:06:05. > :06:06.be extremely cautious about its use, and the party
:06:07. > :06:09.will hold a strategic defence and security review immediately
:06:10. > :06:12.after the election. In terms of immigration,
:06:13. > :06:14.Labour will seek "reasonable management of migration",
:06:15. > :06:16.but it will not make "false Elsewhere, university tuition
:06:17. > :06:22.fees will be abolished, and the public sector pay cap,
:06:23. > :06:25.which limits pay rises for public sector workers
:06:26. > :06:29.to 1%, will be scrapped. The party also aims to renationalise
:06:30. > :06:31.the railways, the Royal Mail and the National Grid,
:06:32. > :06:39.as well as creating at least one A senior Labour backbencher
:06:40. > :06:44.described it to the Sunday Politics as a manifesto for a leadership
:06:45. > :06:47.who don't "give a toss about the wider public",
:06:48. > :06:49.and several other Labour candidates told us they thought it
:06:50. > :06:51.had been deliberately leaked by the leadership,
:06:52. > :06:54.with one suggesting the leak was intended to "bounce
:06:55. > :06:57.the National Executive" And we're joined now from Salford
:06:58. > :07:06.by the Shadow Business Secretary, Welcome to the programme. The draft
:07:07. > :07:12.manifesto proposed to renationalise the number of industry. You will
:07:13. > :07:15.wait for the franchises to run out rather than buy them out at the
:07:16. > :07:21.moment so can you confirm the railways will not be wholly
:07:22. > :07:26.nationalised until 2030, after three Labour governments, and Jeremy
:07:27. > :07:30.Corbyn will be 80? I'm not going to comment on leaks, you will just have
:07:31. > :07:37.to be patient and wait to see what is in our manifesto. But you have
:07:38. > :07:41.already announced you will nationalise the railways, so tell me
:07:42. > :07:45.about it. We have discussed taking the franchises into public ownership
:07:46. > :07:50.as they expire, however the detail will be set out in the manifesto so
:07:51. > :07:55.I'm not prepared to go into detail until that policy is formally laid
:07:56. > :08:01.out on Tuesday. That doesn't sound very hopeful but let's carry on. You
:08:02. > :08:06.will also nationalise the National Grid, it has a market capitalisation
:08:07. > :08:11.of ?40 billion, why do you want to nationalise that? Again, I'm not
:08:12. > :08:15.going to speculate on leaks, you will just have to be patient. But
:08:16. > :08:21.you said you will nationalise the National Grid so tell's Y. The leaks
:08:22. > :08:26.have suggested but you will just have to wait and see what the final
:08:27. > :08:31.manifesto states on that one. So is it a waste of time me asking you how
:08:32. > :08:36.you will pay for something that costs 40 billion? Be patient, just
:08:37. > :08:41.couple of days to go, but what I would say is there is growing
:08:42. > :08:45.pressure from the public to reform the utilities sector. The
:08:46. > :08:50.Competition and Markets Authority stated in 2015 that bill payers were
:08:51. > :08:53.paying over till debt -- ?2 billion in excess of what they should be
:08:54. > :09:00.paying so there is a clear need for reform. The bills we get are from
:09:01. > :09:03.the energy companies, you are not going to nationalise them, you are
:09:04. > :09:08.going to nationalise the distribution company and I wondered
:09:09. > :09:13.what is the case for nationalising the distribution company? As I said,
:09:14. > :09:17.our full plans will be set out on Tuesday. In relation to the big six
:09:18. > :09:24.energy companies, we know in recent years they have been overcharging
:09:25. > :09:29.customers... There's no point in answering questions I am not asking.
:09:30. > :09:33.I am asking what is the case for nationalising the National Grid?
:09:34. > :09:37.There is a case for reforming the energy sector as a whole and that
:09:38. > :09:41.looks at the activities of the big six companies and it will look at
:09:42. > :09:47.other aspects too. You will have to be patient and wait until Tuesday.
:09:48. > :09:54.What about the Royal Mail? Again, you will have to wait until Tuesday.
:09:55. > :09:58.Why can't you just be honest with the British voter? We know you are
:09:59. > :10:06.going to do this and you have a duty to explain. I'm not even arguing
:10:07. > :10:11.whether it is right or wrong. The Royal Mail was sold off and we know
:10:12. > :10:15.it was sold under value and British taxpayers have a reason to feel
:10:16. > :10:19.aggrieved about that. There is a long-term strategy that would ensure
:10:20. > :10:22.the Royal Mail was classified as a key piece of infrastructure but the
:10:23. > :10:27.details of that will be set out in our manifesto because we want to
:10:28. > :10:30.ensure businesses and households ensure the best quality of service
:10:31. > :10:37.when it comes to their postal providers. You plan to borrow an
:10:38. > :10:41.extra 25 billion per year, John McDonnell has already announced
:10:42. > :10:45.this, on public investment, on top of the around 50 billion already
:10:46. > :10:50.being planned for investment. You will borrow it all so that means, if
:10:51. > :10:59.you can confirm, that many years after the crash by 2021, Labour
:11:00. > :11:06.government would still be borrowing 75 billion a year. Is that correct?
:11:07. > :11:12.We have set out ?250 billion of capital investment, and ?250 billion
:11:13. > :11:15.for a national investment bank. Our financial and fiscal rules dictate
:11:16. > :11:19.we will leave the Government in a state of less debt than we found it
:11:20. > :11:25.at the start of the parliament so we won't increase the national debt at
:11:26. > :11:30.the end of our Parliamentary term. How can you do that if by 2021 you
:11:31. > :11:35.will still be borrowing around 75 billion a year, which is more than
:11:36. > :11:39.we borrow at the moment? The 500 billion figure is set out over a
:11:40. > :11:43.period of ten years, it's a figure that has been suggested by Peter
:11:44. > :11:48.Helm from Oxford University as a figure that is necessary to bring us
:11:49. > :11:53.in line with other industrial competitors. Similar figures have
:11:54. > :12:00.been suggested by groups such as the CBI. By the way I have not included
:12:01. > :12:04.all 500 billion, just the 250 billion on public spending, not the
:12:05. > :12:09.extra money. You talk about the fiscal rules. The draft manifesto
:12:10. > :12:13.said you will leave debt as a proportion of trend GDP law at the
:12:14. > :12:19.end of each parliament, you have just said a version of that. What is
:12:20. > :12:24.trend GDP? In clear terms we will ensure the debt we acquire will be
:12:25. > :12:27.reduced by the end of the parliament. We won't leave the
:12:28. > :12:36.Government finances in a worse state than we found them. OK, but what is
:12:37. > :12:40.trend GDP? Our rule is we will ensure public sector net debt is
:12:41. > :12:45.less than we found it when we came to power in Government on June the
:12:46. > :12:51.8th. But that is not what your draft manifesto says. I'm not going to
:12:52. > :12:55.comment on leaks, you are just going to have to wait until Tuesday to
:12:56. > :13:01.look at the fine detail and perhaps we will have another chat then. You
:13:02. > :13:04.have published your plans for corporation tax and you will
:13:05. > :13:08.increase it by a third and your predictions assumed that will get an
:13:09. > :13:14.extra 20 billion a year by the end of the parliament. But that assumes
:13:15. > :13:18.the companies don't change their behaviour, that they move money
:13:19. > :13:24.around, they leave the country or they generate smaller profits. Is
:13:25. > :13:27.that realistic? You are right to make that point and you will see
:13:28. > :13:31.when we set out our policies and costings in the manifesto that we
:13:32. > :13:36.haven't spent all of the tax take. We have allowed for different
:13:37. > :13:40.differentials and potential changes in market activity because that
:13:41. > :13:47.would be approved and direction to take. But corporation tax is allowed
:13:48. > :13:52.to be cut in France and the United States, it's only 12.5% in Dublin.
:13:53. > :13:56.Many companies based in Britain are already wondering whether they
:13:57. > :14:00.should relocate because of Brexit, if you increase this tax by a third
:14:01. > :14:06.couldn't that clinch it for a number of them? No, we will still be one of
:14:07. > :14:10.the lowest corporation tax rate in the G7. Let's look at what's
:14:11. > :14:14.important for business. Cutting corporation tax in itself doesn't
:14:15. > :14:19.improve productivity, or business investment and there's no suggestion
:14:20. > :14:24.cutting corporation tax in recent years has achieved that. Businesses
:14:25. > :14:28.need an investment in tools in things they need to thrive and
:14:29. > :14:33.prosper, they also need to reduce the burden at the lower end of the
:14:34. > :14:37.tax scale, before we get to the Prophet stage. One key example is
:14:38. > :14:45.business rates. We have made the proposal to government to in --
:14:46. > :14:46.exclude machinery so businesses can invest and grow operations in the
:14:47. > :15:01.future but the Government refused. Corporation tax has been cut since
:15:02. > :15:07.2010. When it was 28% it brought in ?43 billion a year. Now it is down
:15:08. > :15:13.to 20%, it brought in ?55 billion a year. By cutting it in the last
:15:14. > :15:19.year, it brought in 21% more, so what is the problem? It might have
:15:20. > :15:23.brought in more money, but has it increased business investment in the
:15:24. > :15:29.long term. It is not just about cutting corporation tax, but it is
:15:30. > :15:34.on the ability of businesses to thrive and prosper. Business
:15:35. > :15:39.investment in the UK is below are industrial competitors. Wages are
:15:40. > :15:45.stagnating which doesn't indicate businesses are not doing well. Let
:15:46. > :15:51.me get it right, you are arguing if we increase business tax by a third,
:15:52. > :15:59.that will increase investment? I am not saying that. You just did. Know
:16:00. > :16:04.I didn't, I said reducing business tax isn't enough, you have to invest
:16:05. > :16:08.in the things businesses need to thrive and prosper. You have also
:16:09. > :16:18.got to lessen the burden on business. You have announced a
:16:19. > :16:24.financial transaction tax. Your own labour Mayor of London said he has
:16:25. > :16:28.vowed to fight it. He said I do not want a unilateral tax on business in
:16:29. > :16:34.our city, so why are you proceeding with it? This isn't a new
:16:35. > :16:38.initiative, there is a growing global pressure to make sure we have
:16:39. > :16:41.fairness in the financial sector. Ordinary British people are paying
:16:42. > :16:48.for our banking crisis they didn't cause. Another important point,
:16:49. > :16:53.stamp duty reserve tax was brought in in the 1600 and there have been
:16:54. > :16:56.little reforms. The sector has changed and we have do provide
:16:57. > :17:02.changes to the system for that change. High-frequency trading where
:17:03. > :17:07.we have a state of affairs where a lot of shares are traded on
:17:08. > :17:12.computers within milliseconds. We need a tax system that keeps up with
:17:13. > :17:18.that. What happens if they move the computers to another country? Emily
:17:19. > :17:22.Thornaby said this morning, other countries had already introduced a
:17:23. > :17:29.financial transaction tax, what other countries have done that?
:17:30. > :17:37.There are ten countries looking at introducing a transaction tax. Which
:17:38. > :17:42.ones have done it so far? They will be later announcing a final package,
:17:43. > :17:46.going through the finer detail at the moment. But the European
:17:47. > :17:51.Commission tried to get this done in 2011 and it still hasn't happened in
:17:52. > :17:54.any of these countries. But you are going to go ahead unilaterally and
:17:55. > :18:00.risk these businesses, which generate a lot of money, moving to
:18:01. > :18:06.other jurisdictions. There is not a significant risk of that happening.
:18:07. > :18:16.The stamp duty reserve tax is levied at either where the person or
:18:17. > :18:20.company is domiciled or where the instrument is issued rather than
:18:21. > :18:24.worth the transaction takes place. This tax in itself is not enough to
:18:25. > :18:28.make people leave this country in terms of financial services because
:18:29. > :18:32.there is more to keep these businesses here in terms of the
:18:33. > :18:36.investment we are making, the economy that Labour will build, in
:18:37. > :18:39.terms of productivity improvement we will see. Thank you very much,
:18:40. > :18:43.Rebecca Long-Bailey. And listening to that was the Home
:18:44. > :18:54.Office Minister, Brandon Lewis. Over the years, you have got
:18:55. > :18:58.corporation tax by 20%, it is lower than international standards, so why
:18:59. > :19:04.are so many global companies who make money out of Great Britain,
:19:05. > :19:09.still not paying 20%? It is one of the problems with the point Labour
:19:10. > :19:13.were making and Rebecca could not answer, these companies can move
:19:14. > :19:17.around the world. One of the important things is having a low tax
:19:18. > :19:22.economy but these businesses, it encourages them to come at a rate
:19:23. > :19:29.they are prepared to pay. People may say they are right, if they were
:19:30. > :19:35.paying 19, 20% incorporation tax. But they are not. Google runs a
:19:36. > :19:42.multi-million pound corporation and did not pay anywhere near 20%. There
:19:43. > :19:45.are companies that are trading internationally and that is why we
:19:46. > :19:54.have to get this work done with our partners around the world. Has there
:19:55. > :19:58.been an improvement? It is more than they were paying before. Whether it
:19:59. > :20:03.is Google or any other company, alongside them being here, apart
:20:04. > :20:08.from the tax they pay, it is the people they employ. The deal was, if
:20:09. > :20:12.you cut the business tax, the corporation tax on profits, we would
:20:13. > :20:18.get more companies coming here and more companies paying their tax. It
:20:19. > :20:21.seems it doesn't matter how low, a number of companies just pay a
:20:22. > :20:27.derisory amount and you haven't been able to change that. As you
:20:28. > :20:34.outlined, the income taken from the changing corporation tax has gone
:20:35. > :20:37.up. That is from established British companies, not from these
:20:38. > :20:41.international companies. It is because more companies are coming
:20:42. > :20:45.here and paying tax. That is a good thing. There is always more to do
:20:46. > :20:50.and that is why we want to crack down. In the last few weeks in the
:20:51. > :20:55.Finnish Parliament, Labour refused to put to another ?8.7 billion of
:20:56. > :21:01.tax take we could have got by cracking down further. You claim to
:21:02. > :21:07.have made great progress on cracking down on people and companies to pay
:21:08. > :21:12.the tax they should. But the tax gap is the difference between what HMRC
:21:13. > :21:19.takes in and what it should take in. It has barely moved in five years,
:21:20. > :21:23.so where is the progress? He have brought in 150 billion more where we
:21:24. > :21:31.have cracked down on those tax schemes. The gap is still the same
:21:32. > :21:36.as it was five years ago. It's gone from 6.8, 26.5. It has gone down.
:21:37. > :21:40.The Prime Minister and the Chancellor said they want to
:21:41. > :21:43.continue work on to get more money on these companies while still
:21:44. > :21:52.having a competitive rate to encourage these companies. While big
:21:53. > :21:54.business and the wealthy continue to prosper, the Office for Budget
:21:55. > :21:59.Responsibility tell us those on average earnings in this country
:22:00. > :22:05.will be earning less in real terms by 2021 than they did in 2008. How
:22:06. > :22:11.can that be fair? I don't see it that way. I haven't seen the figures
:22:12. > :22:15.you have got. What I can say to you, Andrew, we have made sure the
:22:16. > :22:19.minimum wage has gone up, the actual income tax people pay has gone down.
:22:20. > :22:28.So in their pocket, real terms, people have more money. You are the
:22:29. > :22:31.self-styled party of work. We keep emphasising work. Under your
:22:32. > :22:37.government you can work for 13 years and still not earn any more at the
:22:38. > :22:43.end of it, and you did at the start. Where is the reward for effort in
:22:44. > :22:48.that? I have not seen those figures. There are 2.8 million more people,
:22:49. > :22:53.more jobs in economy than there was. 1000 jobs every day and people are
:22:54. > :22:57.working and developing through their careers. This is what I thought was
:22:58. > :23:01.odd in what Rebecca was saying, investing in people is what the
:23:02. > :23:06.apprenticeship levy is about, companies are investing their works
:23:07. > :23:10.force to take more opportunities that there. We are talking about
:23:11. > :23:13.fairness, politicians talk about hard-working people and we know the
:23:14. > :23:19.average earnings are no higher than they were in 2008. We know the pay
:23:20. > :23:23.and bonuses of senior executives have continued to grow and the
:23:24. > :23:27.Institute for Fiscal Studies has shown 3 million of the poorest
:23:28. > :23:32.households will lose an average of ?2500 a year in the next Parliament,
:23:33. > :23:39.benefits frozen, further sanctions kick in. 3 million of the poorest
:23:40. > :23:45.losing 2500. Under the Tories, one law for the rich and another for the
:23:46. > :23:49.poor. It is quite wrong. First of all, we have got to be fair to the
:23:50. > :23:53.taxpayer who is funding the welfare and benefit system. Which is why the
:23:54. > :24:03.welfare was right. Get more people in work and then it is important to
:24:04. > :24:07.get more people upscaling. As that allowance rises, people have more of
:24:08. > :24:13.the money they earn in their pocket to be able to use in the economy.
:24:14. > :24:18.People will be worse off. 2500, among the poorest already. They will
:24:19. > :24:25.have more money in their pocket as we increase the allowance before
:24:26. > :24:30.people pay tax. We have seen millions of people coming out of tax
:24:31. > :24:34.altogether. The reason I ask these questions, you and the Prime
:24:35. > :24:38.Minister go on and on about the just about managing classes. I am talking
:24:39. > :24:43.about the just about managing and below that. It is all talk, you
:24:44. > :24:46.haven't done anything for them. We have made sure they have an
:24:47. > :24:53.increasing minimum wage, it has gone up more under us than any other
:24:54. > :24:59.previous government. Their wages will be still lower in real terms.
:25:00. > :25:03.Let me come on to this plan for housing. We have announced a new
:25:04. > :25:08.plan to increase affordable housing, social housing, some council housing
:25:09. > :25:13.and social housing built by the associations. How much money is
:25:14. > :25:18.behind this? It is part of the 1.4 billion announced in the Autumn
:25:19. > :25:23.Statement. How many homes will you get for 1.4 billion? That depends on
:25:24. > :25:27.the negotiations with local authorities. It is local
:25:28. > :25:34.authorities, who know the area best. I will not put a number on that. 1.4
:25:35. > :25:39.billion, if you price the house at 100,000, which is very low,
:25:40. > :25:45.particularly for the South, back at you 14,000 new homes. That is it.
:25:46. > :25:49.What we have seen before, how the local government can leveraged to
:25:50. > :25:53.build thousands more homes. That is what we want to see across the
:25:54. > :25:56.country. It is not just about the money, for a lot of local
:25:57. > :26:02.authorities it is about the expertise and knowledge on how to do
:26:03. > :26:06.this. That is why support from the housing communities minister will
:26:07. > :26:13.help. What is the timescale, how many more affordable homes will be
:26:14. > :26:18.built? I will not put a number on it. You announced it today, so you
:26:19. > :26:22.cannot tell me how many more or what the target is? It is a matter of
:26:23. > :26:25.working with the local authorities who know what their local needs are,
:26:26. > :26:29.what land they have got available. What we saw through the local
:26:30. > :26:34.elections with the Metro mayors, they want to deliver in their areas,
:26:35. > :26:37.whether it is the West of England, the north-east, Liverpool,
:26:38. > :26:43.Manchester and we want to work with them. You have said variations of
:26:44. > :26:46.this for the past seven years and I want some credibility. When you
:26:47. > :26:52.cannot tell us how much money, what the target and timescale is, and
:26:53. > :26:57.this government, under which affordable house building has fallen
:26:58. > :27:01.to a 24 year low. 1.2 million families are on waiting lists for
:27:02. > :27:07.social housing to rent. That is your record. Why should we believe a word
:27:08. > :27:12.you say? This is different to what we have been doing over the last two
:27:13. > :27:16.years. We want to develop and have a strong and stable economy that can
:27:17. > :27:25.sustain that 1.4 billion homes. This is important. In 2010, we inherited
:27:26. > :27:30.the lowest level of house building, 75,000 new homes. That is about
:27:31. > :27:34.189,000 over the last four years. That is a big step forward after the
:27:35. > :27:45.crash, getting people back into the industry. More first-time buyers
:27:46. > :27:49.onto the market. Final question, in 2010, 2011, your first year in
:27:50. > :27:56.government, there were 60,000 affordable homes built. May not be
:27:57. > :28:02.enough, but last day it was 30 2000. So why should we trust anything you
:28:03. > :28:09.say about this? On housing, we have delivered. We have delivered more
:28:10. > :28:15.social housing. Double what Labour did in 13 years, in just five years.
:28:16. > :28:18.This is what this policy is about, working with local authorities to
:28:19. > :28:22.deliver more homes to people in their local areas. Thank you.
:28:23. > :28:25.Now, they have a deficit of between 15 and 20% in the polls,
:28:26. > :28:28.but Jeremy Corbyn and those around him insist Labour can win.
:28:29. > :28:31.If the polls are right they've got three and half weeks to change
:28:32. > :28:33.voters' minds and persuade those fabled undecided voters
:28:34. > :28:38.We enlisted the polling organisation YouGov to help us find out how
:28:39. > :28:40.the performance of party leaders will affect behaviour
:28:41. > :28:49.Leeds, a city of three quarters of a million people,
:28:50. > :28:54.eight Parliamentary seats and home to our very own focus group.
:28:55. > :28:57.Our panel was recruited from a variety of backgrounds
:28:58. > :29:01.and the majority say they haven't decided who to vote for yet.
:29:02. > :29:03.Watching behind the glass, two experts on different sides
:29:04. > :29:10.Giles Cunningham, who headed up political press at Downing Street
:29:11. > :29:17.under David Cameron and Aaron Bastani, Corbin supporter,
:29:18. > :29:19.under David Cameron and Aaron Bastani, Corbyn supporter,
:29:20. > :29:23.I think Theresa May sees herself as a pound shop Thatcher.
:29:24. > :29:43.Milliband's policies but when it came
:29:44. > :29:47.about who you want, if you wake up on maybe a 2015,
:29:48. > :29:50.We found in a couple of focus groups, people saying
:29:51. > :29:53.we'd be quite relieved, even though some of those same
:29:54. > :29:55.people have been saying we quite like the Labour policies.
:29:56. > :30:00.I think the fact that Corbyn's going so hard on his values,
:30:01. > :30:01.this is a really progressive manifesto, they live
:30:02. > :30:06.But I think that's a new challenge, that wasn't there in 2015.
:30:07. > :30:08.Is there anyone here that you don't recognise?
:30:09. > :30:10.After a little warm up, the first exercise, recognising
:30:11. > :30:17.I think it's nice to have a strong woman in politics, I do.
:30:18. > :30:19.But I've got to say, when she comes on the news,
:30:20. > :30:22.I kind of do think, here we go again.
:30:23. > :30:24.Tell me about Tim Farron, what are your impressions of Tim Farron?
:30:25. > :30:29.It isn't going to do anything, it isn't going to change anything.
:30:30. > :30:37.You'll be surprised to hear it's actually the Greens.
:30:38. > :30:50.Strong and stable leadership in the national interest.
:30:51. > :30:55.Yes, Team May, it's the British equivalent of make
:30:56. > :31:04.What do we think about this one for the many and not the few?
:31:05. > :31:07.It's not quite as bad as strong and stable,
:31:08. > :31:09.but it will probably get on our nerves after a while.
:31:10. > :31:20.We must seize that chance today and every day until June the 8th.
:31:21. > :31:27.But that's not quite my question, my question is,
:31:28. > :31:30.if you are Prime Minister, we will leave, come hell or high
:31:31. > :31:33.water, whatever is on the table at the end of the negotiations?
:31:34. > :31:36.If we win the election, we'll get a good deal with Europe.
:31:37. > :31:38.Assertive and in control and he felt comfortable
:31:39. > :31:43.But the second one, I thought he was very hesitant.
:31:44. > :31:52.I thought he was kind of, hovering around, skirting around
:31:53. > :31:55.and that's the second time I've seen a similar
:31:56. > :31:56.interview with the question being asked regarding Brexit.
:31:57. > :31:59.I don't think I'd have any confidence with him
:32:00. > :32:02.You think you are going up against some quite strong people,
:32:03. > :32:04.how are you going to stand up for us?
:32:05. > :32:09.When you are in negotiations, you need to be tough.
:32:10. > :32:11.And actually is right to be tough sometimes,
:32:12. > :32:13.particularly when you are doing something for the country.
:32:14. > :32:16.There's a reason for talking about strong and stable leadership.
:32:17. > :32:18.It's about the future of the country, it's
:32:19. > :32:22.It's just that people kind of listen to that kind of thing and think
:32:23. > :32:28.Both on The One Show and in the news.
:32:29. > :32:34.She attracts the public better than what Corbyn does.
:32:35. > :32:37.She didn't answer the question in a more articular way than Corbyn
:32:38. > :32:43.Imagine that Theresa May is an animal.
:32:44. > :32:46.So, in your minds, what animal is coming to mind
:32:47. > :33:00.I've done a Pekinese because I think she's all bark and no bite.
:33:01. > :33:06.Alpaca because she's superior looking and woolly
:33:07. > :33:22.I don't think his policies are for the modern, real world.
:33:23. > :33:25.A mouse because they are weak and they can be easily bullied,
:33:26. > :33:28.but also they can catch you by surprise if you're
:33:29. > :33:36.What do you take away from what you saw then,
:33:37. > :33:39.and what message would you send back to the Tories now?
:33:40. > :33:42.I think what came over is people see Theresa May as a strong politician,
:33:43. > :33:44.not everyone likes her, but you don't need to be
:33:45. > :33:47.liked to be elected, because ultimately it's about who do
:33:48. > :33:49.you trust with your future and your security.
:33:50. > :33:51.I think what I also take out of that focus group,
:33:52. > :33:54.was it was a group of floating voters, there was no huge appetite
:33:55. > :33:57.for the Lib Dems and there was no huge appetite for Ukip.
:33:58. > :34:00.So my messaged back to CCHQ would be stick to the plan.
:34:01. > :34:04.I thought the response to the manifesto was excellent.
:34:05. > :34:06.It's clear that people aren't particularly keen on Theresa May,
:34:07. > :34:11.There are some associations with her about strength and stability,
:34:12. > :34:14.which is exactly what the Tory party want of course, but they are not
:34:15. > :34:16.positive and nobody thinks that she has a vision
:34:17. > :34:23.So, what I'd say the Jeremy Corbyn, what I'd say to the Labour Party is,
:34:24. > :34:25.they need to really emphasise the manifesto in
:34:26. > :34:31.Jeremy Corbyn himself has to perform out of his skin and I think
:34:32. > :34:34.he has to reemphasise those characteristics which may be have
:34:35. > :34:36.come to the fore may be over the last 12 months,
:34:37. > :34:39.resilience, strength and the fact that he's come this far,
:34:40. > :34:41.why not take that final step and go into ten Downing Street?
:34:42. > :34:43.We're joined now by the American political consultant
:34:44. > :34:53.For the sake of this discussion, assume the polls at the moment are
:34:54. > :34:59.broadly right, is there any hope for Mr Corbyn in the undecided voters?
:35:00. > :35:03.Know, and this is a very serious collection with serious consequences
:35:04. > :35:07.to who wins. Nobody cares whether you can draw and what animal they
:35:08. > :35:11.represent, they want to know where they stand, and I felt that was
:35:12. > :35:17.frivolous. I come to Britain to watch elections because I learned
:35:18. > :35:20.from here. Your elections are more substantial, more serious, more
:35:21. > :35:25.policy and less about personality and that peace was only about
:35:26. > :35:29.personality. That's partly because Mrs May has decided to make this a
:35:30. > :35:44.presidential election. You can see on the posters it is all Team May. I
:35:45. > :35:48.agree with that, and in her language she says not everyone benefits from
:35:49. > :35:52.a Conservative government, I don't see how using anything Republicans
:35:53. > :35:56.have used in the past. In fact her campaign is more of a centrist
:35:57. > :36:02.Democrats but it is a smart strategy because it pushes Corbyn further to
:36:03. > :36:06.the left. Of course you said Hillary Clinton have won. On election night
:36:07. > :36:12.the polling was so bad in America, the exit polls that were done, the
:36:13. > :36:18.BBC told America she had won. No, I was anchoring the programme that
:36:19. > :36:26.night, I ignored your tweet. The BBC had the same numbers. Yes, but we
:36:27. > :36:30.did not say she had won, I can assure you of that. Because of
:36:31. > :36:37.people like you we thought she had but we didn't broadcast it. That was
:36:38. > :36:42.a smart approach. My point is other than teasing you, maybe there is
:36:43. > :36:47.hope for Jeremy Corbyn. I think you will have one of the lowest turnout
:36:48. > :36:51.in modern history and I think Labour will fall to one of the lowest
:36:52. > :36:57.percentages, not percentage of number of seats they have had, and
:36:58. > :37:01.this will be a matter of soul-searching for both political
:37:02. > :37:04.parties. What you do with a sizeable majority, and she has a
:37:05. > :37:10.responsibility to tell the British people exactly what happens as she
:37:11. > :37:15.moves forward. He and Labour will have to take a look at whether they
:37:16. > :37:20.still represent a significant slice of the British population. Do you
:37:21. > :37:24.see a realignment in British politics taking place? I see a
:37:25. > :37:28.crumbling of the left and yet there is still a significant percentage of
:37:29. > :37:38.the British population that once someone who is centre-left. And they
:37:39. > :37:40.like a lot of Mr Corbyn's policies. I'm listening to Michael foot. I
:37:41. > :37:43.went to school here in the 1980s and I feel like I'm watching the Labour
:37:44. > :37:45.Party of 35 years ago, in a population that wants to focus on
:37:46. > :37:51.the future, not the past. Thank you. It's just gone 11.35,
:37:52. > :37:53.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:37:54. > :37:56.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:37:57. > :00:58.minutes, the Week Ahead. Coming up here in 20
:00:59. > :00:59.Tories are saying. It is a very emotive subject and we have run out
:01:00. > :01:07.of time. On Thursday nominations closed
:01:08. > :01:11.in the 650 parliamentary seats across the country,
:01:12. > :01:14.so now we know exactly who's We've been analysing the parties'
:01:15. > :01:21.candidates to find out what they might tell us
:01:22. > :01:23.about the make-up of the House Well, we know Theresa May is
:01:24. > :01:28.committed to delivering Brexit and analysis of Conservative
:01:29. > :01:33.candidates has shown that in their top 100 target seats,
:01:34. > :01:35.37 candidates supported leave during last year's referendum
:01:36. > :01:43.campaign and 20 supported remain; 43
:01:44. > :01:45.have not made public In the last parliament,
:01:46. > :01:52.the vast majority of Labour MPs were hostile to Jeremy Corbyn so how
:01:53. > :01:54.supportive are Labour Well, of 50 of Labour's
:01:55. > :02:00.top 100 target seats 17 candidates have expressed
:02:01. > :02:03.support for Mr Corbyn. 20 candidates supported Owen Smith
:02:04. > :02:08.in last year's leadership contest or have expressed
:02:09. > :02:12.anti-Corbyn sentiment, and If they won those,
:02:13. > :02:18.the Labour benches would be marginally more sympathetic
:02:19. > :02:20.to Mr Corbyn than they are now. What do the figures tell us
:02:21. > :02:22.about where the other Well, the Lib Dems have decided not
:02:23. > :02:26.to stand against the Greens in Brighton Pavilion,
:02:27. > :02:28.and are fielding 629 candidates this year -
:02:29. > :02:31.that's two fewer than 2015. The number of Ukip candidates has
:02:32. > :02:34.fallen dramatically. They are standing in 247 fewer
:02:35. > :02:41.constituencies than 2015, throwing their support behind
:02:42. > :02:43.solidly pro-Brexit Tories in some areas such as Lewes
:02:44. > :02:47.and Norfolk North. The Greens are fielding
:02:48. > :02:51.103 fewer candidates than at the last election,
:02:52. > :03:02.standing down to help other progressive candidates
:03:03. > :03:15.in some places. The most liking statistic is the
:03:16. > :03:21.demise in Ukip candidates, is this their swansong? And I think so. It
:03:22. > :03:29.is remarkable how few Ukip candidates are standing. It is hard
:03:30. > :03:39.to see they will suddenly revive in the next couple of years. I think
:03:40. > :03:43.this is probably the end. Frank Luntz mentioned the fragmentation of
:03:44. > :03:46.the left was a feature of this election, but also there is the
:03:47. > :03:50.consolidation of the right, and if you take the things together that
:03:51. > :03:54.could explain why the polls are where they are. Absolutely, that's
:03:55. > :04:00.precisely what happened at the start of the 1980s, the right was
:04:01. > :04:06.incredibly united and that's when we started talking about majorities of
:04:07. > :04:12.over 100 or so. No matter what the size of Theresa May's majority, it
:04:13. > :04:18.will be the total collapse of Ukip, but not just because we are now
:04:19. > :04:22.leaving the EU and that was their only reason for being, but a whole
:04:23. > :04:30.lot of people voted for Ukip because they felt the Tories were no longer
:04:31. > :04:33.listening. Theresa May has given the impression that she is listening,
:04:34. > :04:42.and that is the biggest possible thing that could happen to the Tory
:04:43. > :04:47.vote. Fragmentation of the left, consolidation of the right? It's one
:04:48. > :04:51.of the lessons that is never learnt, it happened in the 1980s, it doesn't
:04:52. > :04:55.take much for the whole thing to fracture so now you have on the
:04:56. > :05:02.centre-left the SNP, the Labour Party, the Greens, the Liberal
:05:03. > :05:06.Democrats all competing for the same votes and when you have, fleetingly
:05:07. > :05:12.perhaps, large numbers coalescing on the right in one party, there is
:05:13. > :05:17.only going to be one outcome. It happens regularly. It doesn't mean
:05:18. > :05:22.the Tories haven't got their own fragility. Two years ago, David
:05:23. > :05:25.Cameron and George Osborne the dominant figures, neither are in
:05:26. > :05:31.Parliament now which is a symptom of the fragility this election is
:05:32. > :05:36.disguising. Mrs May's position in a way reminds me of Mrs Thatcher in
:05:37. > :05:41.the 1980s, I won't be outflanked on the right, Nicolas Sarkozy in
:05:42. > :05:44.France, I won't be outflanked on the right, so the National Front didn't
:05:45. > :05:49.get through either timed he ran to the second round on like this time,
:05:50. > :05:55.and now Mrs May on Brexit won't be outflanked Iver and as a result has
:05:56. > :05:59.seen off right flank. And also she is looking to the left as well with
:06:00. > :06:02.some of the state interventions. What was interesting about the
:06:03. > :06:06.analysis you showed a few minutes ago was the number of Tory
:06:07. > :06:10.candidates who have apparently not declared which way they voted in the
:06:11. > :06:15.referendum, and you would have thought if this election was all
:06:16. > :06:18.about Brexit, as some would claim, that would become an unsustainable
:06:19. > :06:23.position, and actually more it's about leadership. But the point that
:06:24. > :06:30.I'm now hearing from a number of Labour candidates that they are
:06:31. > :06:35.seeing Tory leaflets that don't even have the Tory candidate's name on
:06:36. > :06:40.them, it is just about Theresa May. I am glad they are keeping to the
:06:41. > :06:44.law because by law they have to put it on. It has been harder for some
:06:45. > :06:51.of the smaller parties too because of the speed of the election being
:06:52. > :06:56.called. We have the manifesto is coming out this week. I think Labour
:06:57. > :07:01.Forshaw on Tuesday, we are not yet sure when the Tories will bring
:07:02. > :07:06.bears out. I suggest one thing, it will at least for people like me
:07:07. > :07:13.bring an end to the question you will have to wait for the manifesto.
:07:14. > :07:23.And Rebecca Long baby will never have that excuse again, isn't it
:07:24. > :07:27.wonderful! She is not the only one. When you are trying to take the
:07:28. > :07:32.north and Midlands from Labour, I would go to one or the other. For
:07:33. > :07:37.me, I can barely hold back my excitement over the Tory manifesto.
:07:38. > :07:40.This will be, I think, the most important day for the British
:07:41. > :07:49.government for the next five years. That wasn't irony there? You
:07:50. > :07:53.actually meant that? I'm not even being cynical at all on Sunday
:07:54. > :08:02.Politics! This is a huge day and it's because I think we will see...
:08:03. > :08:06.I don't think Mrs May will play it safe and I don't think we will get
:08:07. > :08:10.the broadbrush stuff that she might be advised to do. I think she will
:08:11. > :08:16.lay out precisely what you want to do over the next five years and take
:08:17. > :08:19.some big risks. Then finally after a year of this guessing and
:08:20. > :08:23.theorising, we will finally work out what Mrs May is all about. She will
:08:24. > :08:27.say she doesn't want the next parliament to be all about Brexit,
:08:28. > :08:31.though she knows that's the next important thing she has to deliver
:08:32. > :08:33.in some way, so she gets a mandate for that if the polls are right but
:08:34. > :08:47.she does have very different ideas from
:08:48. > :08:49.Mr Cameron about how to run a country. She will I assume one to
:08:50. > :08:52.mandate for what these different ideas are. Otherwise there is no
:08:53. > :08:55.point in holding an early election. You will get a majority, but if you
:08:56. > :08:58.get a mandate to carry on implementing the Cameron and Osborne
:08:59. > :09:01.manifesto it would be utterly pointless. I agree, it is the
:09:02. > :09:05.pivotal event of the election and it will be interesting to see the
:09:06. > :09:10.degree to which she expands on the line which interests me about its
:09:11. > :09:16.time to look at the good that government can do. Because in a way
:09:17. > :09:20.this moves the debate on in UK politics from, from 97 the Blair
:09:21. > :09:25.Brown governments were insecure about arguing about the role of
:09:26. > :09:28.government. Cameron Osborne government similarly so, so here you
:09:29. > :09:32.have a Labour Party talking about the role of government and the
:09:33. > :09:36.state, and Tory leader apparently doing so was well. I think that will
:09:37. > :09:43.be really interesting to see whether it is fleshed out in any significant
:09:44. > :09:46.way. And it is not a natural Tory message. Harold Macmillan talked
:09:47. > :09:54.about the role of the state, Ted Heath Mark two was pretty big on the
:09:55. > :09:59.state, the industrial policy and so on, and even if it is not thought to
:10:00. > :10:04.be that Tory, does she get away with it because she deliver such a big
:10:05. > :10:10.victory if that's what she does deliver? Just inject a little note
:10:11. > :10:16.of scepticism, I wonder how much of this is authentically Theresa May. I
:10:17. > :10:21.was interested to and talk to someone who used to sit in cabinet
:10:22. > :10:25.meetings during which Theresa May never expressed an opinion on
:10:26. > :10:31.anything outside the Home Office briefs. Other ministers were roving
:10:32. > :10:38.all over their colleagues' briefs. So where are the ideas coming from?
:10:39. > :10:44.I think we can point to Nick Timothy. One of her closest advisers
:10:45. > :10:50.in Downing Street. It will be interesting to see how that evolves.
:10:51. > :11:01.On Thursday I think we will all be talking about something called
:11:02. > :11:05.Urdington Toryism. Urdington is the suburb of Birmingham where Nick
:11:06. > :11:12.Timothy comes from, who is very much Theresa May's policy brain and
:11:13. > :11:15.leading inspiration. Urdington Toryism is about connecting the
:11:16. > :11:20.party with traditional working class voters, and their belief to do that
:11:21. > :11:24.is not just taking away government out of their lives but showing them
:11:25. > :11:33.that government can actually help their lives. It can be a force for
:11:34. > :11:40.good to rebuild the trust. A lot of what Mrs May talks about is all...
:11:41. > :11:48.It is talk and then a lot of it suddenly goes by the wayside. What
:11:49. > :11:53.happened to worker directors on the boards. It is designed to appeal to
:11:54. > :11:58.that constituency and then nothing happens. She had an excuse before in
:11:59. > :12:02.the sense that it wasn't in the 2015 manifesto and she had a small
:12:03. > :12:06.majority so therefore she arguably had to water down some of the stuff
:12:07. > :12:10.for example in her Tory conference speech, which had a lot of this
:12:11. > :12:15.active government material in it. If she puts it in the manifesto, it is
:12:16. > :12:19.a sign she plans to do it and will have no excuse if she then gets
:12:20. > :12:24.nervous afterwards because it will be in there. If it wasn't for
:12:25. > :12:28.Brexit, this great overwhelming issue, I think this election will be
:12:29. > :12:33.seen as quite a significant development in terms of an argument
:12:34. > :12:37.around the role of government, much-needed. But Brexit
:12:38. > :12:42.unfortunately overshadows it all. As much as we like our arguments over
:12:43. > :12:49.the role of government we will hear strong and stable, stable and strong
:12:50. > :12:53.ad nauseam, aren't we? Absolutely, and we heard the same old lines from
:12:54. > :13:01.the Labour Party as well so they are all at it. It will be a fascinating
:13:02. > :13:03.week, stop talking it down! Thanks to our panel.
:13:04. > :13:06.The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at noon
:13:07. > :13:10.I'll be back here at the same time on BBC One next Sunday.
:13:11. > :13:45.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.
:13:46. > :13:48.When it came to my TV habits, I'd watch anything...
:13:49. > :13:52.But now I can sign in online and get more of what I love.
:13:53. > :13:55.I'm kept up to date with the shows I love
:13:56. > :13:59.and I get suggestions on subjects I'll like.