:00:38. > :00:41.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:45. > :00:48.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:49. > :00:50.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:51. > :00:56.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:57. > :00:59.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:01:00. > :01:03.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:04. > :01:07.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:08. > :01:09.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:10. > :01:16.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:17. > :01:27.We will be talking to one of his key supporters. In London, we look at
:01:28. > :01:34.what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain.
:01:35. > :01:36.To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by
:01:37. > :01:37.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.
:01:38. > :01:42.They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join
:01:43. > :01:50.So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign
:01:51. > :01:53.And some recent polls suggest the race is just
:01:54. > :02:00.We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,
:02:01. > :02:03.here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:
:02:04. > :02:08.Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.
:02:09. > :02:10.This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions
:02:11. > :02:16.While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,
:02:17. > :02:18.there will be no break in campaigning for
:02:19. > :02:24.And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall
:02:25. > :02:28.On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -
:02:29. > :02:31.the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's
:02:32. > :02:34.Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see
:02:35. > :02:38.representatives from the seven main parties debate in front
:02:39. > :02:47.On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...
:02:48. > :02:49.Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May
:02:50. > :02:52.They won't debate each other, but will take questions
:02:53. > :02:54.consecutively from members of the audience.
:02:55. > :02:57.The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians
:02:58. > :03:05.cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go
:03:06. > :03:11.We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,
:03:12. > :03:14.with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.
:03:15. > :03:17.Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion
:03:18. > :03:20.And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.
:03:21. > :03:22.There are five new opinion polls today, which have
:03:23. > :03:24.the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six
:03:25. > :03:28.points to 14 points. So, what's going on?
:03:29. > :03:30.Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn
:03:31. > :03:38.to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.
:03:39. > :03:46.Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They
:03:47. > :03:51.may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of
:03:52. > :03:54.these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying
:03:55. > :03:59.before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the
:04:00. > :04:05.Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour
:04:06. > :04:12.vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative
:04:13. > :04:16.lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are
:04:17. > :04:20.now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can
:04:21. > :04:25.no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some
:04:26. > :04:29.posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get
:04:30. > :04:39.rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major
:04:40. > :04:43.sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if
:04:44. > :04:49.they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of
:04:50. > :04:54.those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether
:04:55. > :04:57.the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing
:04:58. > :05:01.more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot
:05:02. > :05:05.box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a
:05:06. > :05:11.landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a
:05:12. > :05:14.majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground
:05:15. > :05:21.depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour
:05:22. > :05:26.Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week
:05:27. > :05:32.one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of
:05:33. > :05:35.people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I
:05:36. > :05:40.usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.
:05:41. > :05:45.They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have
:05:46. > :05:51.looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour
:05:52. > :05:53.have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional
:05:54. > :05:57.voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of
:05:58. > :06:03.those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a
:06:04. > :06:06.particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous
:06:07. > :06:10.opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the
:06:11. > :06:16.Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is
:06:17. > :06:19.one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of
:06:20. > :06:24.us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained
:06:25. > :06:29.that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in
:06:30. > :06:34.an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly
:06:35. > :06:37.among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be
:06:38. > :06:41.wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in
:06:42. > :06:50.truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are
:06:51. > :06:54.wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.
:06:55. > :07:01.The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support
:07:02. > :07:05.early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in
:07:06. > :07:09.Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has
:07:10. > :07:13.already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the
:07:14. > :07:21.possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.
:07:22. > :07:25.That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned
:07:26. > :07:31.should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what
:07:32. > :07:34.looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a
:07:35. > :07:40.massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.
:07:41. > :07:46.Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.
:07:47. > :07:52.Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy
:07:53. > :07:56.and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.
:07:57. > :08:00.The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa
:08:01. > :08:05.May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour
:08:06. > :08:10.Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't
:08:11. > :08:14.mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The
:08:15. > :08:18.more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have
:08:19. > :08:23.seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and
:08:24. > :08:26.stable leadership and then you do something like a massive
:08:27. > :08:31.unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even
:08:32. > :08:34.greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion
:08:35. > :08:39.polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the
:08:40. > :08:42.reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning
:08:43. > :08:46.because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting
:08:47. > :08:52.is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the
:08:53. > :08:57.media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question
:08:58. > :09:01.of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be
:09:02. > :09:05.broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high
:09:06. > :09:10.significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than
:09:11. > :09:15.many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the
:09:16. > :09:17.combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis
:09:18. > :09:23.said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much
:09:24. > :09:28.campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national
:09:29. > :09:31.campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls
:09:32. > :09:34.are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts
:09:35. > :09:39.about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come
:09:40. > :09:43.next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite
:09:44. > :09:49.understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to
:09:50. > :09:56.frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The
:09:57. > :10:01.electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to
:10:02. > :10:07.Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is
:10:08. > :10:13.framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both
:10:14. > :10:18.manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes
:10:19. > :10:21.down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more
:10:22. > :10:26.promises about things you care about like your electricity bill.
:10:27. > :10:30.Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit
:10:31. > :10:35.election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes
:10:36. > :10:40.down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how
:10:41. > :10:43.the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a
:10:44. > :10:47.couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who
:10:48. > :10:53.you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is
:10:54. > :10:56.already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government
:10:57. > :10:58.policies affect their lives. Thank you very much.
:10:59. > :11:00.The election campaign was, of course, put on hold
:11:01. > :11:02.following the terrorist attack in Manchester
:11:03. > :11:05.But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly
:11:06. > :11:07.surprising that security is now a primary concern.
:11:08. > :11:10.The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more
:11:11. > :11:24.Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts
:11:25. > :11:29.have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police
:11:30. > :11:32.numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It
:11:33. > :11:38.is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an
:11:39. > :11:42.imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I
:11:43. > :11:46.would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would
:11:47. > :11:47.hope they would have the resources to act as well.
:11:48. > :11:49.Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice
:11:50. > :11:58.Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and
:11:59. > :12:02.Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has
:12:03. > :12:06.already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has
:12:07. > :12:11.said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to
:12:12. > :12:15.much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the
:12:16. > :12:21.safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the
:12:22. > :12:25.Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police
:12:26. > :12:30.would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There
:12:31. > :12:38.are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut
:12:39. > :12:41.by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We
:12:42. > :12:47.are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra
:12:48. > :12:56.security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas
:12:57. > :13:01.identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is
:13:02. > :13:04.the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security
:13:05. > :13:08.services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more
:13:09. > :13:14.police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more
:13:15. > :13:19.resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are
:13:20. > :13:23.committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as
:13:24. > :13:29.well. You are not committing anything more. The government has
:13:30. > :13:35.not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is --
:13:36. > :13:40.promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security
:13:41. > :13:45.on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at
:13:46. > :13:48.the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to
:13:49. > :13:55.keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and
:13:56. > :13:59.more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen
:14:00. > :14:03.to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out
:14:04. > :14:09.for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm
:14:10. > :14:14.talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme
:14:15. > :14:19.violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary.
:14:20. > :14:24.Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving
:14:25. > :14:30.the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power.
:14:31. > :14:35.We need to listen to the intelligence community and the
:14:36. > :14:38.security service, to the army and the police, about what they think
:14:39. > :14:43.and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is
:14:44. > :14:48.clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is
:14:49. > :14:52.less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security
:14:53. > :14:58.services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn
:14:59. > :15:03.will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more
:15:04. > :15:06.powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole
:15:07. > :15:11.political career voting against measures designed to tackle
:15:12. > :15:16.home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on
:15:17. > :15:21.safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the
:15:22. > :15:25.security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against
:15:26. > :15:33.the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in
:15:34. > :15:39.2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new
:15:40. > :15:43.powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along
:15:44. > :15:48.with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against
:15:49. > :15:51.legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or
:15:52. > :15:56.actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we
:15:57. > :16:01.don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye
:16:02. > :16:05.to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for
:16:06. > :16:08.terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made
:16:09. > :16:12.clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the
:16:13. > :16:15.security services, what he said about the international situation
:16:16. > :16:21.has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and
:16:22. > :16:22.her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President
:16:23. > :16:31.Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and
:16:32. > :16:34.security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at
:16:35. > :16:40.some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in
:16:41. > :16:50.2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy
:16:51. > :16:54.Corbyn still think that is a bad idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with
:16:55. > :17:00.Theresa May, David Davis and others... I know you want to bracket
:17:01. > :17:03.it with Conservatives but I'm interested in what Jeremy Corbyn
:17:04. > :17:07.will do when he says we are going to be smarter about fighting terrorism.
:17:08. > :17:13.If he's not prepared to vote in favour of those sorts of measures,
:17:14. > :17:19.or trying to impose restrictions on suspects, I'm trying to find out
:17:20. > :17:23.what he will do. It is a complex situation. With this legislation the
:17:24. > :17:27.devil is often in the detail. If it was a simple and stopping terrorism
:17:28. > :17:32.by voting a piece of legislation through Parliament, it would have
:17:33. > :17:38.been stopped a long time ago. Sadly there are no easy answers, and that
:17:39. > :17:42.is recognised by Barack Obama, Stella Rimington, the head of the
:17:43. > :17:47.MI5, by David Davis and other Conservative MPs. What is clear, as
:17:48. > :17:50.Jeremy made clear in his speech this week, is the way things are being
:17:51. > :17:55.done currently is not working. We have got to be tough on terrorism
:17:56. > :17:59.and the unforgivable acts of murder, but also tough on the causes of
:18:00. > :18:04.terrorism as well. The sad truth is there are no easy answers. If there
:18:05. > :18:16.were, the problem would have been solved a long time ago. If you more
:18:17. > :18:19.security and terrorism officers but your leader is still uncomfortable
:18:20. > :18:21.with giving them the powers they need to do their jobs because it is
:18:22. > :18:24.complicated legislation, they will want to know how you are going to do
:18:25. > :18:39.it. At another stop the War rally in 2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder
:18:40. > :18:42.of a charity worker was jingoism. At the beginning of that speech he
:18:43. > :18:48.mentioned the importance of the one-minute silence for the memory of
:18:49. > :18:52.Alan Henning who was murdered. What he has also made clear is
:18:53. > :18:57.responsibility for acts of terrorism and murder lies with the murder, and
:18:58. > :19:04.something that's really disappointed me is that the Prime Minister said
:19:05. > :19:17.the other day that in Jeremy Corbyn's speech on this on Monday,
:19:18. > :19:22.he said... Whether she agrees with him on his politics, she knows he
:19:23. > :19:25.didn't say that in his speech, but what troubles me is you have got a
:19:26. > :19:29.Prime Minister who must have sat down with her advisers earlier that
:19:30. > :19:33.day and said, well I do know he didn't say that but if we say he did
:19:34. > :19:38.we might win some votes. I think that is shameful and it shows
:19:39. > :19:41.Theresa May cannot be trusted. These issues should transcend party
:19:42. > :19:45.politics. We need to pull together on this issue. Thank you very much.
:19:46. > :19:48.Well, the Conservatives have promised a new statutory commission
:19:49. > :19:51.The party says it will identify extremism, including
:19:52. > :19:53.the "non-violent" kind, and help communities stand up to it.
:19:54. > :19:55.Also this morning, the Security Minister, Ben Wallace,
:19:56. > :19:57.has attacked internet giants for failing to tackle terror
:19:58. > :19:59.online, and accused them of being ruthless money-makers.
:20:00. > :20:12.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Those comments you have made about
:20:13. > :20:17.social media companies failing in their responsibility to take down
:20:18. > :20:21.extremist material, what will you do to compel them? I think we will look
:20:22. > :20:26.at the range of options. The Germans have proposed a fine, we are not
:20:27. > :20:31.sure whether that will work, but there are range of pressures we can
:20:32. > :20:36.put onto some of these companies. Some have complied. In the article
:20:37. > :20:41.in the Sunday Telegraph today I did say it is not all of them. They are
:20:42. > :20:45.not immune to pressure. We can do internationally, and the Prime
:20:46. > :20:49.Minister urged at the G7 and international response. I think
:20:50. > :20:55.there are a range of issues. We could change the law. You mentioned
:20:56. > :21:00.the G7, and rhetoric and warm words are fine to an extent but it is
:21:01. > :21:03.action people want. If you have made these impassioned remarks in the
:21:04. > :21:10.newspapers about them failing to do the job, people want to know what
:21:11. > :21:14.powers do you have now to say to social media companies take down
:21:15. > :21:17.this material? We have an act that was recently passed. In this area we
:21:18. > :21:24.have just finished consulting on one of the areas we could use but we
:21:25. > :21:30.cannot pre-empt the consultation. We have right now officials from my
:21:31. > :21:35.department over in the United States with American officials working with
:21:36. > :21:41.CSPs because what we see is that they do respond to pressure. The
:21:42. > :21:45.best example is we think they have the technology and the capability to
:21:46. > :21:51.change the algorithms they use that maximise profit over safety. But you
:21:52. > :21:54.are relying on these companies devoting more resources to this line
:21:55. > :22:01.of work that you would like to see them do. Have you got any evidence
:22:02. > :22:04.they will do that? They said, only a few weeks ago before the election
:22:05. > :22:08.was called the Home Secretary hosted a Round Table with them. We have
:22:09. > :22:14.evidence they are trying to improve it. A few are refusing to or being
:22:15. > :22:17.difficult, and that's why the Prime Minister was right to step up not
:22:18. > :22:22.only the language she was using but to say we are not going to allow
:22:23. > :22:25.this to progress any more. People will be worried about who will make
:22:26. > :22:31.the judgment about what is unacceptable and what should be
:22:32. > :22:36.taken down. Let me show you this, which was shared widely across
:22:37. > :22:41.social media. If you read that quote you could argue it is at the same
:22:42. > :22:45.end if you like. The man in the picture is a terrorist hate
:22:46. > :22:50.preacher, the jihadist who was killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is
:22:51. > :22:55.this the sort of thing you would be demanding social media companies
:22:56. > :23:01.take down? You have to look at the context it was deployed in. I could
:23:02. > :23:05.show you some of the 270,000 pieces we have had removed since 2010 from
:23:06. > :23:10.internet sites that have been extreme. The big issue is not often
:23:11. > :23:14.the individual image, it is the way these companies set up the
:23:15. > :23:19.algorithms to link you. If you were watching that on Facebook delivered
:23:20. > :23:26.to you, perhaps you would like to look at this, because that's how
:23:27. > :23:35.they set it up. If you go onto YouTube, you can get let down the
:23:36. > :23:38.path from looking at Manchester... I understand your example, but from a
:23:39. > :23:46.practical level are you expecting media companies to take down that
:23:47. > :23:50.sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... You are? Who will make the decisions
:23:51. > :23:56.about what will radicalise young people that could lead someone down
:23:57. > :24:01.the path to let off a bomb? If I invite your viewers to look at the
:24:02. > :24:05.work the Guardian have done on Facebook guidance, to say for
:24:06. > :24:09.example it is OK to produce videos or broadcast videos of
:24:10. > :24:13.seven-year-olds being bullied as long as it wasn't accompanied by
:24:14. > :24:18.captions, I don't think you need to be an expert to say that is not
:24:19. > :24:23.acceptable. Something more worrying for you as a journalist and me as a
:24:24. > :24:28.politician, another set of guidance that says... I think this is quite
:24:29. > :24:34.menacing... That certain people don't deserve our protection. That
:24:35. > :24:37.includes journalists and politicians and people who are controversial. So
:24:38. > :24:43.I think there is more work to be done but at the end of the day it is
:24:44. > :24:46.the pathway this stuff leads to. It is more about examining how much
:24:47. > :24:50.progress you can make. The Government says there are up to
:24:51. > :24:57.23,000 potential terrorist attackers in this country, 3000 of those
:24:58. > :25:08.posing a serious threat being monitored. That is pretty
:25:09. > :25:12.disturbing, these are big numbers. Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester
:25:13. > :25:15.shows this is not about failure, it is about the scale of the challenge
:25:16. > :25:22.we face and that is why it is important that alongside people is
:25:23. > :25:26.powers. Should you double the size of MI5 for example? We have
:25:27. > :25:32.increased year-on-year in real terms not only the money but the numbers
:25:33. > :25:38.of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we have committed to increased to...
:25:39. > :25:43.Before the attack. Before our manifesto we had recruited, we have
:25:44. > :25:50.increased the whole of government spending on counterterrorism from
:25:51. > :25:58.?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 billion. Would you expand the number
:25:59. > :26:04.of people in MI5? I have asked them on a regular basis if they have the
:26:05. > :26:09.resource if they are happy with it, and the answer comes back time and
:26:10. > :26:13.time again, yes we are. You have quite extensive powers at your
:26:14. > :26:19.disposal, the question is if you are using them. Measures were introduced
:26:20. > :26:24.in 2012 to replace control orders, but they have rarely been used. Only
:26:25. > :26:34.seven are currently in operation. Why? Because there are a whole... It
:26:35. > :26:37.is just one tool in the tool box. Other powers we use, we take away
:26:38. > :26:46.people's passports if we think they are about to travel. How many? I
:26:47. > :26:50.cannot comment, it is a sensitive issue. Plenty of people are finding
:26:51. > :26:53.their passport has been removed and at the same time we strip people of
:26:54. > :27:02.citizenship to make sure they don't come back. On top of that, because
:27:03. > :27:05.of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 and counterterrorism, we have more
:27:06. > :27:14.powers and more ability to monitor them. But are you using them enough?
:27:15. > :27:19.Only seven TPIMs are in operation. You won't give me any of the other
:27:20. > :27:23.measures at your disposal, but if they are only in single figures,
:27:24. > :27:29.that doesn't seem to compare with the numbers who are being monitored.
:27:30. > :27:34.Also, we have to strike a balance between... We have to satisfy the
:27:35. > :27:40.court so we have to make sure there is enough evidence to restrict
:27:41. > :27:45.people's freedoms. TPIMs do all sorts of good things to keep people
:27:46. > :27:53.safe. It sends people away from where they live, it tags them... I
:27:54. > :27:56.tell you why they are better. The control orders were on track to be
:27:57. > :28:01.struck down by the courts because one of the things we have to satisfy
:28:02. > :28:04.is the courts but we also have to satisfy, we have to make sure we get
:28:05. > :28:09.the balance between the community is right and the measures we take. If
:28:10. > :28:14.we alienate our communities, we won't get the intelligence that
:28:15. > :28:17.allows us to catch it. There is no point in having more police and
:28:18. > :28:24.intelligence services if you don't give them the powers to do the job.
:28:25. > :28:34.Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James Bond to do precisely nothing. And --
:28:35. > :28:36.thank you. The revelation that the Manchester
:28:37. > :28:44.suicide bomber, 22-year-old Salman Abedi, was born in this
:28:45. > :28:47.country has raised fresh concerns about the effectiveness of the UK's
:28:48. > :28:49.counter-extremism policy. In a moment we'll be talking to two
:28:50. > :28:52.people who've spent their careers investigating
:28:53. > :28:53.radicalisation in the UK. Douglas Murray,
:28:54. > :28:55.of the Henry Jackson Society, and Sara Khan, author of The Battle
:28:56. > :28:58.for British Islam and CEO of the counter-extremism
:28:59. > :28:59.organisation Inspire. We asked both for a personal take
:29:00. > :29:02.on how to confront the problem of Islamist extremism.
:29:03. > :29:05.First up, here's Douglas Murray. Even after all these dead,
:29:06. > :29:10.all this mourning and defiance, We remain stuck in the John Lennon
:29:11. > :29:28.response to terrorism - Our politicians still refuse
:29:29. > :29:32.to accurately identify the sources of the problem,
:29:33. > :29:33.and polite society This country gave asylum to
:29:34. > :29:40.the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. Their son repaid that generosity
:29:41. > :29:44.by killing 22 British people, one for each year of life this
:29:45. > :29:51.country had given him. We need to think far more
:29:52. > :29:55.deeply about all this. Eastern Europe doesn't
:29:56. > :29:58.have an Islamic terrorism problem France has the worst problem
:29:59. > :30:06.because it has the most Islam. Are we ever going to draw
:30:07. > :30:10.any lessons from this? For the time being, the game
:30:11. > :30:18.is to be as inoffensive as possible. The rot isn't just within
:30:19. > :30:22.the Muslim communities. Consider all those retired British
:30:23. > :30:25.officials and others who shill, and are in the pay of the Saudis
:30:26. > :30:30.and other foreign states, even while they pump the extreme
:30:31. > :30:35.versions of Islam into our country. It is high time we
:30:36. > :30:45.became serious too. Islamist extremism is
:30:46. > :30:53.flourishing in our country. We're failing to defeat it,
:30:54. > :31:00.so what can we do about it? Whenever I say we must counter those
:31:01. > :31:03.Muslim organisations who are promoting hatred,
:31:04. > :31:08.discrimination, and sometimes even violence, I'm often either ignored
:31:09. > :31:12.by some politicians out of a misplaced fear of cultural
:31:13. > :31:15.sensitivity, or I find myself experiencing abuse by some
:31:16. > :31:19.of my fellow Muslims. These groups and their sympathisers
:31:20. > :31:27.tour Muslim communities, hold events, and have hundreds
:31:28. > :31:30.of thousands of followers Yet there is little counter
:31:31. > :31:35.challenge to their toxic anti-Western narrative,
:31:36. > :31:40.which includes opposition I've seen politicians
:31:41. > :31:45.and charities partner with and support some of these
:31:46. > :31:50.voices and groups. Many anti-racist groups
:31:51. > :31:56.will challenge those on the far right but not Muslim hate preachers,
:31:57. > :31:59.in the erroneous belief that to do But it's Islamophobic not
:32:00. > :32:06.to challenge them because it implies Following the attack on Monday,
:32:07. > :32:16.it cannot be business as usual. We must counter those
:32:17. > :32:30.who seek to divide us. Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray
:32:31. > :32:34.join me know. You wrote a book, strange death of Europe. What did
:32:35. > :32:40.you mean in your film when you said, let's get serious? Several things.
:32:41. > :32:44.Let me give you one example. The young man who carried out this
:32:45. > :32:48.atrocious attack was a student at Salford University for two years. He
:32:49. > :32:54.was on a campus which is, from its leadership to its student
:32:55. > :32:59.leadership, opposes all aspects of the government's only counter
:33:00. > :33:05.extremism programme. They boast they are boycotting it. They always did
:33:06. > :33:10.this. The university he was at was against the only counter extremism
:33:11. > :33:15.policy this state has. This is just one example of a much bigger
:33:16. > :33:21.problem. What are you suggesting? Shut down the University? Force them
:33:22. > :33:29.to change their policies? I think in the case of Salford, which
:33:30. > :33:36.discourages students from reporting Islamic extremism... When you
:33:37. > :33:40.discover you have produced a suicide bomber in Manchester, you should be
:33:41. > :33:46.held responsible. What do you say to that? I think it is quite clear from
:33:47. > :33:49.I am experienced there have been politicians who have undermined
:33:50. > :33:53.Prevent, community organisations, Islamist groups who have been at the
:33:54. > :34:02.forefront of undermining and countering Prevent, but also wider
:34:03. > :34:04.counter extremism measures. Islamist -- Islamist extremes and has
:34:05. > :34:09.flourished in this country. If Summer Rae had given us a crystal
:34:10. > :34:14.ball ten years ago and said, look forward and you will see hundreds of
:34:15. > :34:17.people leave this country to join Isis, we will have hundreds of
:34:18. > :34:20.people convicted of Islamist offences, I think we would have been
:34:21. > :34:24.quite shocked that things have got worse as opposed to getting better.
:34:25. > :34:28.Douglas Murray, the essence of your argument when you made the
:34:29. > :34:32.comparison between the numbers of Muslims in other countries is that
:34:33. > :34:36.we have too much Islam in Britain? The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood
:34:37. > :34:42.give is that the answer to absolutely everything is Islam. Less
:34:43. > :34:46.Islam is a good thing. Let me finish. The Islamic world is in the
:34:47. > :34:51.middle of a very serious problem. It has been going on since the
:34:52. > :34:53.beginning. I think it is not worth continuing to risk our own security
:34:54. > :34:59.simply in order to be politically correct. I would disagree with
:35:00. > :35:04.Douglas on that. Nobody is going to deny that since the end of the 20th
:35:05. > :35:09.century there has been a rise in Islamist extreme terror
:35:10. > :35:12.organisations. Yes, there is a crisis within contemporary Islam,
:35:13. > :35:16.but there is a class. There are competing claims about what the
:35:17. > :35:19.faith stands for. While we are seeing Islamist terror
:35:20. > :35:26.organisations, leading theologians are saying that the concept of a
:35:27. > :35:32.caliphate is outdated. Muslims should be adopting a human rights
:35:33. > :35:36.culture. I entirely agree with that. There are obviously people trying to
:35:37. > :35:40.counter that. I would urge us to take the long view. In the history
:35:41. > :35:44.of Islam there have been many reformers. Most of the time they
:35:45. > :35:48.have ended a up being the ones on the brunt of the violence. I deeply
:35:49. > :35:54.resent what you and others do in this country. I want you to win. But
:35:55. > :35:58.they are a Billy good minority. A poll last year found that two thirds
:35:59. > :36:02.of British Muslims found they would not report a family member they
:36:03. > :36:12.found to be involved in extremism to the police. You are proposing more
:36:13. > :36:17.Draconian measures. I wish they could win. We should do everything
:36:18. > :36:21.we can to support people like that. What we should recognise the scale
:36:22. > :36:25.of the problem is beyond our current understanding. You counter
:36:26. > :36:29.radicalisation on a university campus or online? Discussion we had
:36:30. > :36:36.with Ben Wallace about the material that is out there. If we pursue in a
:36:37. > :36:41.hard-line way perhaps the sort of thing Douglas Murray is suggesting,
:36:42. > :36:47.gone is freedom of speech, gone is freedom of debate and discussion?
:36:48. > :36:52.The best way to counter extremism is through the prism of human rights.
:36:53. > :36:57.We cannot abandon our human rights to fight extremism. Where I think we
:36:58. > :37:04.are going wrong, where there is a gap, is the lack of counter work to
:37:05. > :37:10.challenge Islamist ideals. How many people are going to say we need to
:37:11. > :37:14.counter that strict narrative? That is where we are not doing enough
:37:15. > :37:20.work. What about the human rights point, that you cannot take away
:37:21. > :37:26.people's human rights? I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting we
:37:27. > :37:32.do things that ensure that 22 people don't get blown up on an average
:37:33. > :37:38.Monday again, OK? Dissent to be opposed to people want to blow up
:37:39. > :37:42.our daughters is not opposing human rights. If you're taking government
:37:43. > :37:45.money and you are an institution like Salford University you should
:37:46. > :37:50.be held responsible for not cooperating with standard security
:37:51. > :37:56.measures. You can challenge extremism without abandoning human
:37:57. > :37:59.rights. We have got to actually counter the Islamist narrative.
:38:00. > :38:04.We're not doing enough. This is not about closing down free speech. This
:38:05. > :38:08.is encouraging it. This is the most effective way of countering the
:38:09. > :38:16.Islamist narrative. Why isn't it doing better? A number of reasons.
:38:17. > :38:21.One is there is a denial taking place. A lot of apologetics. Part of
:38:22. > :38:24.it is the way we talk about Muslims in this country. We use the term
:38:25. > :38:30.Muslim community as if they are homogenous. There is a positive
:38:31. > :38:34.trend but there is a negative trend among British Muslims. We need to
:38:35. > :38:39.counter those promoting the idea that Muslims are part of a
:38:40. > :38:42.collective identity. I agree. It is also the case there is massive push
:38:43. > :38:46.back because a lot of Muslims are defending the faith in this country.
:38:47. > :38:50.We think we can push them down a better path but they are defending
:38:51. > :38:51.absolutely everything. We need to get real about that. Thank you very
:38:52. > :38:53.much. It's just gone 11.35,
:38:54. > :38:55.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:56. > :38:58.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:38:59. > :02:04.minutes, the Week Ahead. Coming up here in 20
:02:05. > :02:05.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:06. > :02:20.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:21. > :02:27.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:28. > :02:31.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:32. > :02:37.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:38. > :02:41.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:42. > :02:45.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:46. > :02:52.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:53. > :02:58.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:59. > :03:01.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:02. > :03:07.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:08. > :03:11.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:12. > :03:16.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:17. > :03:25.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:26. > :03:28.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:29. > :03:34.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:35. > :03:42.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:43. > :03:48.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:49. > :03:52.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:53. > :03:56.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:57. > :04:02.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:03. > :04:07.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:08. > :04:15.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:16. > :04:19.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:20. > :04:23.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:24. > :04:30.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:31. > :04:35.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:36. > :04:42.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:43. > :04:49.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:50. > :04:55.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:56. > :05:02.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:03. > :05:07.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:08. > :05:14.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:15. > :05:19.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:20. > :05:24.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:25. > :05:27.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:28. > :05:34.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:35. > :05:41.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:42. > :05:44.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:45. > :05:50.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:51. > :05:55.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:56. > :05:59.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:06:00. > :06:03.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:04. > :06:07.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:08. > :06:16.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:17. > :06:21.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:22. > :06:26.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:27. > :06:31.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:32. > :06:35.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:36. > :06:41.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:42. > :06:47.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:48. > :06:51.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:52. > :06:55.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:56. > :06:59.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:07:00. > :07:03.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:04. > :07:08.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:09. > :07:11.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:12. > :07:18.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:19. > :07:23.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:24. > :07:27.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:28. > :07:31.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:32. > :07:35.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:36. > :07:40.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:41. > :07:44.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:45. > :07:48.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:49. > :07:52.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:53. > :07:59.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:08:00. > :08:09.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:10. > :08:13.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:14. > :08:21.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:22. > :08:25.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:26. > :08:30.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:31. > :08:37.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:38. > :08:41.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:42. > :08:46.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:47. > :08:52.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:53. > :08:57.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:58. > :09:03.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:04. > :09:06.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:07. > :09:11.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:12. > :09:15.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:16. > :09:22.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:23. > :09:27.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:28. > :09:31.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:32. > :09:36.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:37. > :09:41.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:42. > :09:44.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:45. > :09:49.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:50. > :09:54.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:55. > :09:56.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:57. > :10:02.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:03. > :10:07.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:08. > :10:12.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:13. > :10:14.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:15. > :10:21.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:22. > :10:25.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:26. > :10:31.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:32. > :10:36.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:37. > :10:44.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:45. > :10:47.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:48. > :10:53.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:54. > :10:57.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:58. > :11:02.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:03. > :11:08.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:09. > :11:12.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:13. > :11:17.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:18. > :11:23.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:24. > :11:28.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:29. > :11:34.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:35. > :11:45.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I
:11:46. > :11:50.did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.
:11:51. > :12:03.That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it
:12:04. > :12:08.seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault
:12:09. > :12:12.of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which
:12:13. > :12:15.the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would
:12:16. > :12:20.imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my
:12:21. > :12:24.judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would
:12:25. > :12:31.be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and
:12:32. > :12:38.performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the
:12:39. > :12:45.economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I
:12:46. > :12:49.don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd
:12:50. > :12:54.is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be
:12:55. > :12:58.debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the
:12:59. > :13:02.electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like
:13:03. > :13:06.to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking
:13:07. > :13:12.forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the
:13:13. > :13:19.week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our
:13:20. > :13:24.guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil
:13:25. > :13:30.will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.
:13:31. > :13:34.That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a
:13:35. > :14:09.very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.
:14:10. > :14:13.As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them
:14:14. > :14:18.the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.