:00:00. > :00:16.Welcome to Berlin. I am at Tanya Beckett. During the course of 2015,
:00:17. > :00:19.Germany was the favoured destination for people fleeing conflict in Syria
:00:20. > :00:25.and leaving other troubled countries. In total, around 1
:00:26. > :00:30.million migrants made their way across its borders. The Chancellor,
:00:31. > :00:35.Angela Merkel, said the country was strong and could cope. But how is
:00:36. > :00:37.the economy absorbing this mass migration of people? That is what we
:00:38. > :01:09.are here in Berlin to find out. Welcome to the programme. The
:01:10. > :01:15.refugee crisis in Europe dominated the headlines throughout 2015. One
:01:16. > :01:20.country was more in the spotlight than any other. Germany is thought
:01:21. > :01:24.to have taken in about 1 million migrants. What is it doing to
:01:25. > :01:32.integrate them? I went to Hamburg to find out. Hamburg is the second
:01:33. > :01:38.largest city in Germany and the biggest port in the country. For if
:01:39. > :01:41.you hundreds years it was part of a prosperous group of trading partners
:01:42. > :01:47.in northern Europe called the Hanseatic league. The newest
:01:48. > :01:49.arrivals in the city are coming in their tens of thousands from further
:01:50. > :02:00.afield and they are getting here overland.
:02:01. > :02:09.One of the first hurdles for Syrian refugees in Hamburg is mastering the
:02:10. > :02:16.German language. Hopes for the future extend way beyond the walls
:02:17. > :02:20.of this classroom. We have lived in war for four or five years, we
:02:21. > :02:28.studied in the war, so we can make it in the end. When you go to a
:02:29. > :02:34.different society or culture, you should be open minded. For me it is
:02:35. > :02:43.OK. I didn't feel that it is bad just because it is different.
:02:44. > :02:47.Germany needs an influx of skills. The country has the lowest birth
:02:48. > :02:59.rate in the world, perhaps this is its chance to nurture a workforce
:03:00. > :03:04.the future. I am from Syria. Life in Germany is very nice. We go to
:03:05. > :03:10.school and come home by train with my friends. Everything is good. The
:03:11. > :03:15.food is nice and Germany is great. And so it is fallen to hamburg
:03:16. > :03:20.employment bureau chief to match the needs of local firms to these new
:03:21. > :03:26.applicants, a task that is proving far from simple. We are really glad
:03:27. > :03:31.that the companies are giving so many chances to sign a contract with
:03:32. > :03:37.migrants. Our challenge really is that we have two know much more
:03:38. > :03:44.about their qualifications, about their profiles. We would like to do
:03:45. > :03:50.that and we have two realise that the majority do not speak German,
:03:51. > :03:57.English, Arabic, pharmacy and every other language. We need to translate
:03:58. > :04:03.the documents and translate what they are telling us. Here at a
:04:04. > :04:07.restaurant in the city, such problems have long been digested. I
:04:08. > :04:18.ring refugees is a way of giving back. It is a small help what we are
:04:19. > :04:24.doing for them. Hamburg is now home to tens of thousands of refugees
:04:25. > :04:31.living in camps around the city. But for migrants to Germany, the future
:04:32. > :04:37.is about more than just survival. I must also work hard and we will see
:04:38. > :04:43.what happens. My own business, my own restaurant. I tried to study and
:04:44. > :04:48.to do something. Joining me to discuss the effect migration is
:04:49. > :04:51.having on the German economy is Alexander Wilhelm from the
:04:52. > :05:00.Confederation of employers here in Germany. We are also joined by a
:05:01. > :05:05.federation whose role is to strengthen society and integrate
:05:06. > :05:11.migrants and the president of the Institute for economic research. Let
:05:12. > :05:16.me come to you first and say, how do you see the current situation? We
:05:17. > :05:20.have a huge challenge in Germany. About a million refugees came into
:05:21. > :05:25.the country last year and we have got to integrate them. They came for
:05:26. > :05:31.humanitarian reasons, but we clearly have to ask her questions, can we
:05:32. > :05:34.integrate them into our society, into the Labour market? Those are
:05:35. > :05:40.the challenges we have to deal with now. There is enormous appetite for
:05:41. > :05:45.refugees because there is a gap in the Labour market. The economic
:05:46. > :05:49.appetite is there within Germany. There is a push and a proven reason
:05:50. > :05:54.for Germany is to come. The German economy is doing well tempered to
:05:55. > :05:59.other European countries. We have about 1 million open jobs. German
:06:00. > :06:04.companies are looking to hire. Economic growth is sound and the
:06:05. > :06:09.social benefits are quite good. Refugees are taken care of quite
:06:10. > :06:14.well in Germany. Of course, it is a major challenge. The reason many
:06:15. > :06:16.refugees come to Germany and not other European countries is that it
:06:17. > :06:22.looks particularly attractive to come here. Alexander Wilhelm,
:06:23. > :06:26.getting people jobs is, kitted business, it is not a question of
:06:27. > :06:32.saying there are jobs and we will take people, why is it so hard? The
:06:33. > :06:35.most difficult thing for companies is to get an idea of the skills and
:06:36. > :06:42.competences that people have already. It is one thing to have a
:06:43. > :06:48.piece of paper from Iran or Afghanistan saying this is my
:06:49. > :06:53.profession and it is another thing to see, in practice, what they can
:06:54. > :06:59.do. What we know for refugees, which is a problem for refugees is that
:07:00. > :07:07.they do not have papers proving their qualifications. The ability of
:07:08. > :07:11.refugees to work is put at the centre of the integration. These are
:07:12. > :07:15.people suffering from trauma and don't necessarily expect German, in
:07:16. > :07:19.fact probably don't and I speak from experience when I say it is not an
:07:20. > :07:24.easy language to learn. This is a long and complicated process. It
:07:25. > :07:28.will be a long and complicated process but we have experience from
:07:29. > :07:34.the 50s and 60s of the guest worker programme, we had people coming from
:07:35. > :07:43.the Balkans, later from Russia. What are the lessons learned? Language
:07:44. > :07:48.and work and education. Those three criteria make a good places for a
:07:49. > :07:53.successful integration. We didn't have enough integration programmes.
:07:54. > :07:57.We thought a guest worker was a guest to woodwork and leave, but
:07:58. > :08:01.humans came and humans stayed and those who stayed not properly
:08:02. > :08:08.integrated, at least many of them so we have become better in the school
:08:09. > :08:11.system, in universities, of really offering transition into the
:08:12. > :08:16.education system and into the Labour market. Humans came and humans
:08:17. > :08:23.stayed, what was the economic impact of that period? They guest workers
:08:24. > :08:28.in the 1960s and 70s were a big game for Germany. Companies were looking
:08:29. > :08:33.for workers and the field of those positions. We had full employment at
:08:34. > :08:38.that time. It is not too dissimilar to today. Germany is in a strong
:08:39. > :08:42.economic position today. The Labour market is close to full employment.
:08:43. > :08:48.A lot of companies are looking for workers. It is possible that it
:08:49. > :08:54.works out. If you are looking within Germany over the last six decades,
:08:55. > :08:58.which are the regions most successfully economic league, they
:08:59. > :09:02.have the highest share of migrants. That shows migration has been
:09:03. > :09:06.successful, people have been integrated successfully. There is no
:09:07. > :09:11.good reason why it shouldn't work. Most are below the age of 25, so
:09:12. > :09:19.that is a positive feature and shows they are going to be here, possibly,
:09:20. > :09:22.for 40 or 50 years. The opportunities are there and I think
:09:23. > :09:28.what Germans need to realise, it is up to migrants to make that step to
:09:29. > :09:35.integration, but it is up to our society whether integration is a
:09:36. > :09:39.success or a failure. Is it going to be a success this time round? Is it
:09:40. > :09:45.being managed in an organised way, such that the opportunity for
:09:46. > :09:49.failure is largely eroded? We clearly have trouble managing
:09:50. > :09:54.migration at the moment. We are overrun. We don't know how many
:09:55. > :09:59.people entered the country. I am also very confident that we will be
:10:00. > :10:06.able to manage this process properly and that we will be able to give
:10:07. > :10:12.chances and, as we just heard, for the migrants in the past we also ran
:10:13. > :10:17.studies showing we have a net benefit in taxes and social security
:10:18. > :10:21.from people coming to our country and I think the general population
:10:22. > :10:27.of our society have understood that we need migration and that
:10:28. > :10:32.migration, or migrants, have a positive impact on society. In the
:10:33. > :10:40.personal environment, as well as for economic reasons. The society is
:10:41. > :10:45.generally very open. As we have seen, people are welcoming refugees
:10:46. > :10:49.and helping them. Alexander, there are pictures of Germans with
:10:50. > :10:53.balloons and so on welcoming refugees, but if you talk to many
:10:54. > :11:00.Germans, they do have concerns about the longer term, but about public
:11:01. > :11:00.services and the burden being put on those and also, cultural
:11:01. > :11:16.differences. How do you bridge that? pure number. It is a very big influx
:11:17. > :11:20.of refugees we have at the moment and this is something that scares
:11:21. > :11:27.people in a way, or at least many people. Once you make clear and the
:11:28. > :11:31.government makes clear that we will only accept these people to stay
:11:32. > :11:38.here and integrate these people who fulfil these criteria and the other
:11:39. > :11:42.ones will probably need to go back, then you raise the acceptance in
:11:43. > :11:47.society as a whole and this is one thing that it is important we speed
:11:48. > :11:54.up procedures in the asylum process and we need better burden sharing
:11:55. > :12:02.within the European Union. We need to improve our cooperation with the
:12:03. > :12:05.transit countries, 34 example. We need support for the countries
:12:06. > :12:11.neighbouring Syria who already carry a high burden and have already
:12:12. > :12:13.posted a huge number of refugees. We need to give these people a
:12:14. > :12:20.perspective they are to bring figure is down. Thank you to you
:12:21. > :12:25.all. Later we will be talking about the longer term impact of migration
:12:26. > :12:38.on the German economy. First, let's hear from our
:12:39. > :12:38.This week 's talking point. Migration, what does it mean
:12:39. > :12:47.occurred to you, it had a wave of immigration, a flood of
:12:48. > :12:50.humanitarian, as if they were an involuntary organism acting without
:12:51. > :12:54.thought. They are not. They are individual human beings with
:12:55. > :12:59.individual stories. The talking point this week is about the human
:13:00. > :13:07.side of migration. This is one of my favourite museums in Dublin. It is
:13:08. > :13:10.the oldest parish church. It is 900 years old. Being on this ancient
:13:11. > :13:16.site helps me get a perspective on the other types of migration into
:13:17. > :13:22.Ireland. You have heard one side of it. Emigration. For hundreds of
:13:23. > :13:22.problems of their leaders by leaving. What about migration
:13:23. > :13:41.Ireland. The country has been a destination for
:13:42. > :13:55.on. We had an increase in non-EU migrants, up to a peak of
:13:56. > :14:01.central Europe. Then we saw a huge spike in migration. It got into
:14:02. > :14:01.hundreds of thousands. Beginning a new life in a new country can be a
:14:02. > :14:12.profoundly entrepreneurial venture. Ireland I am here for 14 years now.
:14:13. > :14:16.I am in the coffee business and I like what I am doing. We have a
:14:17. > :14:26.little chain called the Art of coffee. We have 24 staff. My first
:14:27. > :14:27.job in Ireland was a kitchen porter. I was washing the dishes. Then a big
:14:28. > :14:36.coffee company offered me barista training. I had the choice to make
:14:37. > :14:42.so I decided to work for myself. They might have been concern around
:14:43. > :14:43.the turn of the millennium because huge numbers were coming in. But
:14:44. > :14:49.dissipated quickly. It was seen as being part of the economic boom. The
:14:50. > :14:53.Irish case is interesting converted to other European countries is that
:14:54. > :14:57.15% of professional and associate professional jobs in Ireland are
:14:58. > :15:06.occupied by people born outside of Ireland. The fact I left my own
:15:07. > :15:11.country was not easy. I had to have long days, but I believe if you work
:15:12. > :15:16.hard, if you want to achieve something, you will eventually have
:15:17. > :15:21.results. There you have it, there are many reasons for migrating. You
:15:22. > :15:25.can flee persecution or more, seeking opportunities, either way it
:15:26. > :15:35.is clear the migration story is also a business story. Remember, you can
:15:36. > :15:46.see more of those short films on our website. Before, on Talking
:15:47. > :15:51.Business, we talked about some of the difficulties of integrating
:15:52. > :15:56.refugees and migrants to German society and the workplace. Where
:15:57. > :16:01.does Germany fit in terms of its integration policy within the EU?
:16:02. > :16:08.What fracturing might occur within the EU as a result of the German
:16:09. > :16:13.approach? The German approach has been criticised in the sense that it
:16:14. > :16:16.seems a little bit isolated, there doesn't seem to be consultation with
:16:17. > :16:23.other EU countries and that is important given the freedom of
:16:24. > :16:28.movement within the EU. Clearly, it is an european issue. It has to be
:16:29. > :16:33.dealt with on an european level and there as to be more torque and
:16:34. > :16:41.agreement among the European states and also with countries like Turkey
:16:42. > :16:47.and that hasn't happened yet. It means migration is an unmanaged,
:16:48. > :16:51.uncontrolled process. It is dangerous for the refugees and there
:16:52. > :16:56.is a certain danger that countries like Germany lose the very high
:16:57. > :17:02.acceptance of refugees if the process remains to be uncontrolled,
:17:03. > :17:06.as it is at the moment. Do you see it as being uncontrolled? Of course
:17:07. > :17:11.it is uncontrolled, that happens with refugees, you cannot control
:17:12. > :17:16.water. In Germany there is a sense of disappointment with the European
:17:17. > :17:19.neighbours. Clearly, 3 million refugees coming to the European
:17:20. > :17:26.Union is a big number, but if they are shared equally, within the EU,
:17:27. > :17:30.it is not such a big number for 500 million inhabitants. If more than 1
:17:31. > :17:35.million come to a country with 80 million, it is a much bigger burden
:17:36. > :17:40.for that country. It is an european solution that is needed and my worry
:17:41. > :17:45.is that the refugee crisis really drives Europe apart and we shouldn't
:17:46. > :17:49.let that happen. Do you see it that way, that the refugee crisis has the
:17:50. > :17:55.potential to push Europe further apart? There surely is a danger at
:17:56. > :18:01.the moment and we didn't really expect that the other European
:18:02. > :18:07.member states would not take their part of the burden as well. This is
:18:08. > :18:14.what we see right now, that we need to make clear that we want to show
:18:15. > :18:17.European values, all of us, as the European Union and European
:18:18. > :18:24.countries, but also solidarity between the countries. It is right,
:18:25. > :18:28.of course, that as a strong economic nation in Germany that we take and
:18:29. > :18:36.carry a bigger burden than, let's say, some of the smaller eastern
:18:37. > :18:39.European countries within the European Union, but it doesn't
:18:40. > :18:47.necessarily mean that we can carry 80% of the burden and it is not what
:18:48. > :18:52.we expected. It is central to the EU that workers can move freely within
:18:53. > :18:55.the EU and we have seen that that is problematic if you have enormous
:18:56. > :19:00.disparities of economic performance, then everyone wants to go to the
:19:01. > :19:04.country where the economy is booming. It is coming into question
:19:05. > :19:12.now, isn't it? Is there a middle ground? I don't think it has been
:19:13. > :19:15.problematic, to be honest. Before the refugee crisis came, there was
:19:16. > :19:23.large net migration to Germany from within Europe. The German Labour
:19:24. > :19:27.market absorbed it. People were migrating back after a while. People
:19:28. > :19:31.were sending money back to their families. Instead of sending money
:19:32. > :19:37.around the EU by governments in order to support more needy
:19:38. > :19:43.economies, that people move freely. This was borne of Asian monetary and
:19:44. > :19:48.desire and there is a need to make it work economically and the two are
:19:49. > :19:54.not necessarily well matched, or are they? There shouldn't be a
:19:55. > :19:59.contradiction. Human beings, the matter whether they have high skills
:20:00. > :20:04.or low skills, as long as defined in job, make a contribution to
:20:05. > :20:10.society... You are of the view that low skilled workers make a valuable
:20:11. > :20:13.contribution? It is an illusion that only the high skilled, high earning
:20:14. > :20:19.migrants are good migrants in the sense that they make a contribution
:20:20. > :20:24.and that is wrong. Look at health care in Germany. The health care
:20:25. > :20:26.sector, almost half of the people working there have a migrant
:20:27. > :20:32.background and often times, nurses and other people have low income.
:20:33. > :20:40.They are not the people who pay high taxes. In the past, Germany did not
:20:41. > :20:44.allow refugees. For years on end they were allowed to enter the job
:20:45. > :20:47.market. We have changed refugees and we allow them into the job market
:20:48. > :20:53.because we know for integration it is language, it is education, it is
:20:54. > :20:57.Labour. If we give them the opportunity to work they will more
:20:58. > :20:59.easily integrate into our society and more easily give something back
:21:00. > :21:05.to society as a contribution financially. We see that where we
:21:06. > :21:13.are, the biggest need for a work is for skilled work and we know that,
:21:14. > :21:15.of course, it is a huge challenge to integrate people without formal
:21:16. > :21:20.qualifications into skilled work. This is what we need to see, that it
:21:21. > :21:26.would be difficult but we have such a high share of people with low
:21:27. > :21:29.qualifications right now. We need to invest a large, first of all, to
:21:30. > :21:35.give them a school degree that enables them to pass a vocational
:21:36. > :21:40.training system ought to go to university. What you're saying is
:21:41. > :21:47.unskilled in one country may not be on skilled in another? People from
:21:48. > :21:51.Syria or about five years behind in school compared to Germany. If he
:21:52. > :21:58.has somebody trained as a car mechanic in Syria, it is a
:21:59. > :22:03.mechanical task. In Germany it is a digital, electronic job description.
:22:04. > :22:11.Different qualifications, even for the same jobs. Where do you see the
:22:12. > :22:16.situation in ten years? After five years, about have had a job, half
:22:17. > :22:23.were unemployed. After ten years, we have seen it is still only 80% have
:22:24. > :22:30.a job, 20% are unemployed. Integration is a long-term issue. It
:22:31. > :22:34.very much depends on us as a society. How do we integrate them?
:22:35. > :22:40.We have young people who are motivated, who want to do something,
:22:41. > :22:46.so it is up to our society, politicians, to give these people an
:22:47. > :22:53.opportunity. Thank you very much. I want to thank U all. That is all
:22:54. > :22:55.from Talking Business in Berlin. Do join us again when we will be back
:22:56. > :23:09.in London. What a day. We have had everything
:23:10. > :23:13.thrown at us today. It was a cold start in Scotland. We have seen
:23:14. > :23:18.showers, some of them heavy, some widespread with bands of persistent
:23:19. > :23:19.rain pushing steadily north and some storms with hail and