:00:09. > :00:13.The British finance minister has declared Britain is open for
:00:14. > :00:17.business but as the shock waves of the referendum decision to exit the
:00:18. > :00:21.European Union rippled through the markets, what will Brexit really
:00:22. > :00:26.mean for the economy and companies doing business here and abroad, and
:00:27. > :00:52.what will it mean for Europe? That is what we are discussing this week.
:00:53. > :00:59.Welcome to talking business from London. It has been a bumpy marriage
:01:00. > :01:06.but the stage is set for a potentially long and messy divorce.
:01:07. > :01:10.43 years after joining the European Community, Britain's fought to leave
:01:11. > :01:15.has cast a cloud of uncertainty over the political and economic
:01:16. > :01:19.landscape. The Brexit decision and initially hit shearers and the
:01:20. > :01:27.pound, following 331 year low the dollar. The UK has also been
:01:28. > :01:36.stripped of its triple-A credit rating by Standard Poor's and
:01:37. > :01:39.further reading could follow. The European Commission president warned
:01:40. > :01:54.against delay, saying... The German Chancellor Angela Merkel
:01:55. > :02:02.said the EU was strong enough to survive.
:02:03. > :02:11.Meanwhile, British finance minister George Osborne insisted only the UK
:02:12. > :02:18.could trigger the exit process, and...
:02:19. > :02:25.So what type of relationship should the UK now be establishing? To
:02:26. > :02:30.discuss Britain and Europe's future in the short and long-term, I am
:02:31. > :02:39.joined by a Lord Digby Jones who has held some of the highest positions
:02:40. > :02:49.in British business, and the UK Trade Investment Minister from
:02:50. > :02:51.2007-8. He is described as a reluctant Brexiteer.
:02:52. > :02:59.O'Grady, an active trade union and O'Grady, an active trade union and
:03:00. > :03:05.all her life. The first woman to hold the post. She was firmly in the
:03:06. > :03:09.Remain camp. And the director of the Frankfurt stock exchange who
:03:10. > :03:13.top German companies a household top German companies a household
:03:14. > :03:19.name. He is dividing his time between London and Berlin. He would
:03:20. > :03:27.have liked the UK to remain in the EU. Digby Jones, let me start with
:03:28. > :03:32.you, a reluctant Brexiteer. You're very much somebody acquainted with
:03:33. > :03:39.UK business. What was that about what the EU represented to the UK
:03:40. > :03:46.that you are uncomfortable with? This is a's century. It is about a
:03:47. > :03:51.globalised world than the EU was marching valiantly towards 1970. It
:03:52. > :03:56.was looking in words, an amalgam of unelected people in Brussels with
:03:57. > :03:59.vested interests of big business and trade unions. I have been on the
:04:00. > :04:06.inside and sat in these meetings and I would have loved to vote to stay
:04:07. > :04:10.known I had no confidence that the known I had no confidence that the
:04:11. > :04:16.European Union will deform sufficiently to give the 520 million
:04:17. > :04:20.people living in peace the pensions and health care and welfare they
:04:21. > :04:25.will need in 50 years' time. The only way to look after our
:04:26. > :04:29.grandchildren in that world is to generate sufficient wealth to do so
:04:30. > :04:33.and I have to say, the way to setup and conducts its business there
:04:34. > :04:40.wasn't a career it would ever reform and that is why. Francis, during the
:04:41. > :04:46.time Britain has been a member of the EU, it has the power to impose
:04:47. > :04:51.regulations on British workers. Have they been broadly beneficial? We
:04:52. > :04:55.very often hear them described as red tape but of course the EU has
:04:56. > :05:09.provided a guarantee for rights that are crucial to working people,
:05:10. > :05:14.either new or stronger rights. The EU is also critical for working
:05:15. > :05:17.people in terms of jobs. It is about cheap trade and being the
:05:18. > :05:21.destination for nearly half of our exports and that means jobs, and a
:05:22. > :05:29.lot of people are very worried today about what the future holds. Germany
:05:30. > :05:34.sees the UK is a very crucial trading partner, and counterbalance
:05:35. > :05:37.within the UK, because it finds commonality in terms of economic
:05:38. > :05:44.policy with the EU more than with France. Through, and it was a sad
:05:45. > :05:49.day for us in Germany to see that Great Britain is going to leave us,
:05:50. > :05:54.and sad not just from an economy point of view but also Great Britain
:05:55. > :05:58.made the lot of important contributions and it will be
:05:59. > :06:02.difficult to go ahead without that. Looking at the argument we heard
:06:03. > :06:06.early, I think it is also noticeable, and I just listened to
:06:07. > :06:10.you, that it was quite a self-centred statement, because we
:06:11. > :06:15.know that Great Britain is very good, but we also have to take year
:06:16. > :06:20.in Europe of the weak countries, but are not where we are, and the reason
:06:21. > :06:24.is very selfish again, because we want to avoid going back to 1930
:06:25. > :06:29.whatever. We want to make sure we work together and not against each
:06:30. > :06:33.other. But is this what you were saying, that you want the UK
:06:34. > :06:38.unshackled from Europe and its peculiarities? Not in the slightest
:06:39. > :06:45.and frankly if you will start bringing people up that they believe
:06:46. > :06:50.in an economy that makes Germany Richard and them poorer, that is not
:06:51. > :06:56.egotistical. For Britain, maybe for Germany, but not for Britain. One of
:06:57. > :07:01.my formative moments on this issue was when I was Trade Minister and I
:07:02. > :07:04.can remember sitting in Brussels and saying, why are we putting no
:07:05. > :07:10.tariffs on agricultural produce coming in from abroad yet we add
:07:11. > :07:15.tariffs if we give them the value added to the fine sugar in Africa
:07:16. > :07:19.and bring it in as a refined, so the value-added stays in the developing
:07:20. > :07:24.nation. Why do you tariffs that? To protect markets and make money. If
:07:25. > :07:30.you want to Read to be a beneficial thing in the world, the rich nations
:07:31. > :07:34.such as us and Germany and very much France who are very protectionist,
:07:35. > :07:37.you should stop using Brussels to protect markets and condemning
:07:38. > :07:41.Africa for taking your development check and buying raw materials.
:07:42. > :07:46.Let's educate them and get them skills and allow them to develop
:07:47. > :07:53.wealth. All I got in return was I am not having farmers demonstrating.
:07:54. > :08:00.This is an egotistical unselfish argument from the forming members of
:08:01. > :08:04.the EU, not from Britain. Do you see the EU as having become too
:08:05. > :08:11.introspective? Trade unions across Europe don't believe the union is
:08:12. > :08:14.perfect. In what way was it not? At its heart there are some important
:08:15. > :08:18.values and we have to learn in this world that we all depend on each
:08:19. > :08:23.other. That if one country is doing well and another poorly, that is a
:08:24. > :08:27.problem for all of us and we shared an interest in making sure that the
:08:28. > :08:35.wealth we all create is sure severely. My concern is that we are
:08:36. > :08:44.going to see workers losing out in terms of the wages, rights and jobs.
:08:45. > :08:47.Our top priority, the decisions taken, the top priority is that
:08:48. > :08:54.working people mustn't pay the price. And I completely agree with
:08:55. > :08:59.engaging fully with our friends in engaging fully with our friends in
:09:00. > :09:07.Europe any commonality of creating wealth and look at the automobile
:09:08. > :09:09.industry in Britain. It is still a unionised and very successful
:09:10. > :09:18.because the unions and the manufacturers work in harmony and
:09:19. > :09:26.partnership. Do you accept that Europe has become... Perhaps has
:09:27. > :09:29.gone down a protectionist path or all of Germany being a dominant
:09:30. > :09:35.economy and every other economy having a dependence on that. Germany
:09:36. > :09:38.is the biggest member state and we cannot change that and we need to
:09:39. > :09:45.stand up to that responsibility. What do you mean you can't change
:09:46. > :09:55.that? We are successful in our business and we are big country. We
:09:56. > :09:58.work very well with unions. We now need to deal with that
:09:59. > :10:05.responsibility. I think Germany should be part of the EU and not
:10:06. > :10:08.isolated. That is why I am sad that with Great Britain starting this
:10:09. > :10:12.process the is certainly the danger and others will look at this again
:10:13. > :10:15.will be very hard because we need to will be very hard because we need to
:10:16. > :10:18.make sure that nobody gets an appetite. No punishment,
:10:19. > :10:25.protection. But this sounds like protection. But this sounds like
:10:26. > :10:31.playing into the concern you had that it had its own momentum, the
:10:32. > :10:34.EU, it was a political project, and it had ceased to add value to the
:10:35. > :10:41.people what was supposed to serve? Absolutely right. So why was it not
:10:42. > :10:47.possible to reform from within? Because the vested interests were
:10:48. > :10:53.not willing to deform. 75% of the taxation and spending Europe goes on
:10:54. > :10:58.agriculture. Take a 21-year-old in Greece or Spain today, probably
:10:59. > :11:02.unemployed, taking a big bong from Brussels to work in a subsidised
:11:03. > :11:07.industry called agriculture. Why don't we keep the money in southern
:11:08. > :11:11.Europe to give these people skills so they are attracted to northern
:11:12. > :11:15.Europe because of skills, the attractive to the rest of the world
:11:16. > :11:19.and Asia, or even better they stay at home and attract inward
:11:20. > :11:29.investment. But you are discussing the wrong level. The level you
:11:30. > :11:32.should discuss is how come the British politicians and diplomats
:11:33. > :11:38.didn't manage to get allies and get their point across? That is a
:11:39. > :11:42.problem, because the UK has not sent their best people and to the EU.
:11:43. > :11:49.They have not tried to change the EU hard enough. We would welcome more
:11:50. > :11:53.support than many of your points. I want to come to France's sci-fi may.
:11:54. > :11:58.Is it true that we are effect subsidising industries and not
:11:59. > :12:09.promoting our best interests? Bit of Europe. I think it depends on the
:12:10. > :12:14.industry. There is a great record of success and investing in apprentices
:12:15. > :12:18.and adults too. We know there is a long and dirty tale of small
:12:19. > :12:22.businesses who are not investing for the future and the trade union
:12:23. > :12:29.movement across Europe has always argued that skills are legal
:12:30. > :12:33.priority. It is clear that young people in Britain voted to the
:12:34. > :12:36.maiden, the decision is clear and it is no going back, but we ought to
:12:37. > :12:42.young people who are deeply worried about their future and rights, not
:12:43. > :12:46.just people coming to Britain but people going from Britain to other
:12:47. > :12:51.countries, the hopes in the future of ever getting a home or a decent
:12:52. > :12:57.job let alone a good wage. We bought to them to make the priority now is
:12:58. > :13:01.across Europe that this generation who are disaffected and fuel they
:13:02. > :13:04.don't have future, we start looking at any quality in Europe. It can't
:13:05. > :13:11.go on. You are watching Talking go on. You are watching Talking
:13:12. > :13:16.Business. We are discussing life after Brexit. What will Britain's
:13:17. > :13:19.decision to leave the European Union mean for economy and business and
:13:20. > :13:27.what sort of relationship will we now have with Europe in the future?
:13:28. > :13:32.Lets start on this issue of EU funding and the UK has been a net
:13:33. > :13:36.contributor, but there are some industries that are funded, such as
:13:37. > :13:41.science. How great a loss that you think that is? We are hearing from
:13:42. > :13:46.businesses and local authorities that they want guarantees from the
:13:47. > :13:49.British government that that money, far everything from science parks to
:13:50. > :13:54.railway stations, won't be lost. You work in the finance industry. How
:13:55. > :14:00.does it change the dynamics if London is outside the EU? It is a
:14:01. > :14:08.big question. The short answer is dramatically. We have providers from
:14:09. > :14:13.the US situated in London and they trade on our platform across to
:14:14. > :14:20.customers in France and Belgium. That can only happen because of the
:14:21. > :14:24.European passport. We are present in all those countries without any
:14:25. > :14:28.extra red tape with no extra red tape and we can sell everywhere.
:14:29. > :14:36.That. And that will mean on the one hand that providers will have to
:14:37. > :14:43.move into Europe, or they will have to take extra efforts and then they
:14:44. > :14:51.will be regulated by a European regulator. I would actually say you
:14:52. > :14:55.are wrong because I cannot see why the European passport cannot
:14:56. > :15:01.continue. And I can't see why those elements of the free trade market
:15:02. > :15:06.can't continue, because it is inevitably's interests. There has to
:15:07. > :15:10.be a model that says we trade for the benefit of everyone and there is
:15:11. > :15:16.a limit on the free movement of people. That has never been done but
:15:17. > :15:22.what is wrong with that? I think we need to, all of us, work together at
:15:23. > :15:26.a national level, business, unions and government. We need to roll up
:15:27. > :15:34.our sleeves but what is clear that there wasn't a plan. What would your
:15:35. > :15:41.vision be? Let's be clear that as soon as article 50 is triggered,
:15:42. > :15:51.then the UK's powered brains by each month that negotiation goes on.
:15:52. > :15:59.There is a. We have all pointed out the democratic decision. The TUC's
:16:00. > :16:04.preference if we are stuck with this decision as we go for the normally
:16:05. > :16:10.model, but as we said throughout the campaign, you cannot have your cake
:16:11. > :16:13.and eat it. If you want access to the single market you have to have
:16:14. > :16:22.free movement and you have to have rights for working people. I am
:16:23. > :16:25.going to ask that question, why is it so central to the idea of free
:16:26. > :16:33.trade that you must also have free movement of workers? We have to make
:16:34. > :16:38.sure in the EU that we are competing on a level playing field. And the
:16:39. > :16:43.level playing field that Hermans for example that there cannot be for
:16:44. > :16:48.example child labour in the UK or certain working hours would be in a
:16:49. > :16:51.framework. Creating those kind of agreement actually makes it possible
:16:52. > :16:59.to compete without any extra barriers. Let me finish. Free
:17:00. > :17:04.movement is so important for the EU because we have countries which do
:17:05. > :17:08.not have the kind of industry where their population can work. We need
:17:09. > :17:15.to provide them with them, and make sure sophisticated countries like
:17:16. > :17:18.the UK get skilled workforces. The world has changed and the business
:17:19. > :17:23.plan of Europe has not changed with it. I would like to ask you about
:17:24. > :17:27.going for award what sort of trade relationships you might set up
:17:28. > :17:30.outside the EU. We have special relationship with the US and you
:17:31. > :17:36.have hinted that fast growth in the US and China. What I would like to
:17:37. > :17:40.do, and I will make an appeal right now, I don't want the civil service
:17:41. > :17:46.doing all of this. I would like some overseas help. New Zealand were left
:17:47. > :17:52.in the lurch by us and they have offered help, take it! I would like
:17:53. > :17:54.the unions and business and skilled negotiators from professional
:17:55. > :17:58.services and people like me who have done them before to be brought ten
:17:59. > :18:05.and this is our country and we should pull together and have
:18:06. > :18:09.working parties to do one with America and China and India and
:18:10. > :18:12.obviously the EU. Try to use the power of trade to get a good working
:18:13. > :18:16.relationship with developing countries to actually help them. Do
:18:17. > :18:23.you think this is an opportunity to offer a more level playing field? I
:18:24. > :18:28.really hope so, I hope that as a wake-up call at a practical level.
:18:29. > :18:34.If we take that approach to getting new trade deals vendor has to be
:18:35. > :18:39.something at the heart of it that is for working people, it has to be
:18:40. > :18:44.about good jobs, skills and workers' rights. If we can do that, I think
:18:45. > :18:55.we will avoid some of the problems we have over the TTIP deal. We need
:18:56. > :19:01.to be very clear from the start that if we build that kind of consensus
:19:02. > :19:06.we can avoid some of the mistakes. Do you see from outside the UK that
:19:07. > :19:10.actually this is a concern about globalisation, or do you see it as a
:19:11. > :19:15.more specific UK concern about its position within the EU? Excellent
:19:16. > :19:23.point to make because what we are experiencing here, the symptoms are
:19:24. > :19:27.not new, the globalisation symptoms. We have unique situation where the
:19:28. > :19:32.work that can be done doesn't need to be done by the people in the same
:19:33. > :19:37.place, it can be done anywhere. We have another challenge coming up,
:19:38. > :19:41.optimisation. The challenges are huge and I believe in the EU we can
:19:42. > :19:46.work better together instead of fighting each other. You want to get
:19:47. > :19:50.the best deal for yourself. I don't the best deal for yourself. I don't
:19:51. > :19:56.want to negotiate with somebody who just wants to get the best deal, I
:19:57. > :20:00.want a compromise for both sides. I want to see enlightened
:20:01. > :20:04.self-interest which is the best deal for a hard-working person in North
:20:05. > :20:08.England, and if that lifts the living standards for someone in the
:20:09. > :20:12.south of Greece I am thrilled, but I don't see either of those things
:20:13. > :20:19.being satisfied at the moment by Brussels. Do we have time because in
:20:20. > :20:27.the interim there is uncertainty. How quickly can thread agreements be
:20:28. > :20:31.pulled off a new experience? It depends on what both parties want
:20:32. > :20:36.out of it. We have never been here before, any of us. If they a will
:20:37. > :20:40.from others and if we got it together, these countries would want
:20:41. > :20:46.to do the deal, because we so engaged. A brief thought? You could
:20:47. > :20:49.prepared to sell your granny but prepared to sell your granny but
:20:50. > :20:58.that is not the deal we want. You don't know my granny! We can
:20:59. > :21:01.imagine. We need good deals but we need to be honest. The economy is
:21:02. > :21:07.already potentially facing damage as already potentially facing damage as
:21:08. > :21:14.the result of the delay. It would be an absolute mistake now to cut jobs
:21:15. > :21:19.and services in the public sphere, the priority must be public
:21:20. > :21:22.investment in infrastructure and house-building to keep that demand
:21:23. > :21:25.going through this very difficult period. Do you think Germany will
:21:26. > :21:36.come round to seeing the bigger picture? The bigger picture for
:21:37. > :21:40.Germany will be that we need the EU even if Great Britain is not part of
:21:41. > :21:44.it. We will do everything to protect the EU and make sure this does not
:21:45. > :21:48.damage internal relationships and in order to do that there will be a
:21:49. > :21:55.price that someone has to pay and that has nothing to do with being
:21:56. > :21:59.nasty. No punishment at all. We want to make sure that Europe as we build
:22:00. > :22:06.it together will continue to exist and for that reason it will be very
:22:07. > :22:11.difficult to find. You have other opportunities, China and India and
:22:12. > :22:15.there might be things you can do what you couldn't before. We will be
:22:16. > :22:22.watching and observing and learning and let's see how the situation
:22:23. > :22:29.develops. Thank you, to all of you. That is out from Talking Business
:22:30. > :22:34.but join us again next week when we will be in New York examining the
:22:35. > :22:35.state of the American economy as the country prepares to elect its next
:22:36. > :22:39.president. Goodbye.