:00:00. > :00:00.largely based on trust. Because without it, I'm just getting into a
:00:00. > :00:32.stranger's car. I'm Tanya Becket in London. This
:00:33. > :00:37.week, we will be talking about the gig economy. Its champions say it
:00:38. > :00:40.provides flexible hours and alternatives incomes and gives
:00:41. > :00:47.people access to goods and services they could not otherwise afford. Its
:00:48. > :00:52.detractors say that we are creating an army of low-paid people in
:00:53. > :00:58.precarious work or are undercutting firms by circumventing tax and
:00:59. > :01:07.regulation. So who is right? OK, we will go round once. Musicians like
:01:08. > :01:11.Simon Glenister have been digging for generations. It's precarious
:01:12. > :01:18.work playing any band and teaching helps give him a stable income. Like
:01:19. > :01:22.most musicians, I'm a portfolio worker, I have several things I'm
:01:23. > :01:30.doing. I'm playing with bands, I'm an educator, and doing this digital
:01:31. > :01:34.stuff as well. So lots of different bits and pieces. But this particular
:01:35. > :01:39.part, how much does it add in terms of how valuable it is to you in
:01:40. > :01:45.terms of income? It is not the main thing that I do, but it provides a
:01:46. > :01:51.reasonable income. I think last year, the gross turnover was ?4500.
:01:52. > :01:55.It is all front loaded in terms of the stuff that you do, setting the
:01:56. > :02:03.course is up. It has been fairly minimal upkeep. But most of the
:02:04. > :02:07.students will never meet Simon in person. Instead, they will learn
:02:08. > :02:15.Simon's technique by watching his online tutorials. Technology has
:02:16. > :02:18.transformed gig working into a multi-billion dollar falls in the
:02:19. > :02:24.economy. It means you can find a much bigger market for your skills
:02:25. > :02:32.in anything from coding to cleaning. And you can also find an market for
:02:33. > :02:36.your assets. It reduces the cost because I get some money that I
:02:37. > :02:44.wouldn't get if I was doing it on my own. This is a long-distance car
:02:45. > :02:49.share. Marie Poster itinerary on the site and passengers looking for a
:02:50. > :02:58.ride to London get in touch. They get a cheap car journey in return
:02:59. > :03:03.for a contribution to her costs. The co-founder of the company sees the
:03:04. > :03:07.market for empty car seat, homes or even ski equipment, as a way of
:03:08. > :03:14.getting value from the spare in the economy. Car use is low. A car is
:03:15. > :03:20.typically used to percent of the time and when it is use it is empty
:03:21. > :03:26.because you have 1.6 or 1.7 people in the car and a car is typically
:03:27. > :03:35.decide for five or six people. It is absurd. But with increased
:03:36. > :03:42.efficiency can come greater risk. Many of these are platforms not
:03:43. > :03:46.employers, they put people in touch and there are few safeguards for
:03:47. > :03:52.customers all providers. It is all based on trust. I am joined by a
:03:53. > :03:59.panel of guests who represent workers, employers and industry.
:04:00. > :04:05.This is the Chief Executive of love home swap and founding chair of the
:04:06. > :04:10.industry body sharing economy UK. Dr Elizabeth Cotton is a senior
:04:11. > :04:19.lecturer at Middlesex business cool and a director of a consultancy. And
:04:20. > :04:25.joining us from Sydney, Rachel side from the business cool.
:04:26. > :04:28.If I may start with you, Debbie, intuitively I can imagine that we
:04:29. > :04:33.all think of sharing things that have little value but when it comes
:04:34. > :04:40.to our personal safety or even our home, and your business does exactly
:04:41. > :04:44.that, it's very sensitive? Post-2008, which really date the
:04:45. > :04:48.development of the modern and digital sharing economy, we have had
:04:49. > :04:52.to think carefully about how we spend our money. It's no surprise
:04:53. > :05:00.that the development of the sharing economy was the global economy. What
:05:01. > :05:05.people have got their heads around is how I think about these assets as
:05:06. > :05:12.something I can trade. And when you think about something like my day
:05:13. > :05:15.job, which is my home swap website, people are saving thousands of
:05:16. > :05:21.pounds on a holiday by swapping their homes rather than staying in a
:05:22. > :05:25.hotel. What has developed around that has been this becoming much
:05:26. > :05:30.more mainstream. When I first pitched to raise finance six years
:05:31. > :05:34.ago, I was told by a number of venture capitalists that nobody
:05:35. > :05:39.would ever stay in a stranger's home. Fast forward to the summer
:05:40. > :05:43.when my mother stayed in a stranger's home! We have seen this
:05:44. > :05:48.becoming more normalised, people feeling will save and secure.
:05:49. > :05:53.Rachel, you would agree that the impetus for the birth of the sharing
:05:54. > :05:58.economy is the global recession but this is you of having reputational
:05:59. > :06:04.capital, or some way of measuring trust or reliability is very
:06:05. > :06:10.important? Absolutely. The recession was the catalyst that technology is
:06:11. > :06:14.the game changer. In particular, Mobile, the ability to book things
:06:15. > :06:20.instantly, removing the friction from exchanges. The real change has
:06:21. > :06:26.been in trust. How do you measure that? Is there an algorithm, do you
:06:27. > :06:34.require intellectuals to somehow put some kind of equation across eight?
:06:35. > :06:39.Trust is a really difficult thing to measure. The way we do this is
:06:40. > :06:46.through reputation. You see platforms with reviews and ratings.
:06:47. > :06:51.The most Labour -- basic level is stars. There is an issue with those
:06:52. > :06:56.because you get a lot of positive buyers. So the platforms get more
:06:57. > :07:00.sophisticated. What is the behaviour that really matters on that
:07:01. > :07:06.platform? On Debbie's platform or any other it will be how clean you
:07:07. > :07:15.are as a guest, have reliable you are, wherever that really won't
:07:16. > :07:19.matter on people sharing your car. It's not whether someone is clean,
:07:20. > :07:24.is whether they are a good driver. I think we will look back in a few
:07:25. > :07:28.years' time and look at the star ratings and realise they were too
:07:29. > :07:31.basic and we are moving into a future where we are tracking
:07:32. > :07:36.different behaviours and characteristics that matter to that
:07:37. > :07:40.marketplace. Debbie, so it is about being explicit about what the
:07:41. > :07:46.parameters are, what type of trusts people need to have? I think that is
:07:47. > :07:50.right. One of the thorniest problems has been, can there be an
:07:51. > :07:54.independently verifiable standards of trust that sits adjacent to all
:07:55. > :08:00.these platforms. Whereby, regardless of what you are dealing with, homes,
:08:01. > :08:06.boats, pets, any of the areas where people are sharing, what could trust
:08:07. > :08:13.mean? For that reason, we have launched the world's first economy
:08:14. > :08:16.trust seal which we have been promoting with
:08:17. > :08:20.PricewaterhouseCoopers as an independent assessor. To try and put
:08:21. > :08:25.in place a kitemark in bit like a fair trademark that platforms can
:08:26. > :08:27.display to show that they have been independently audited and in order
:08:28. > :08:33.that they can be trusted as platforms. Elizabeth, let's come
:08:34. > :08:38.over to the idea of how this might work in terms of being an employee.
:08:39. > :08:45.When we are an employee normally, we built up capital within a
:08:46. > :08:50.profession. Is it possible to regarded in this way, that you could
:08:51. > :08:55.build up trust capital and without Abbey adequate your perspective? No,
:08:56. > :09:01.I'm afraid not. It's important to distinguish between two things, the
:09:02. > :09:07.virtual exchange and the model of virtual employer. Despite their
:09:08. > :09:12.protestations and the legal cases and strike action within delivery
:09:13. > :09:17.workers that have been going on, these are employers. In a way, there
:09:18. > :09:21.is nothing new happening through this technology. Most of the people
:09:22. > :09:27.working for these companies are self-employed and it is a much
:09:28. > :09:31.misunderstood category of work. It is precarious work. This is an
:09:32. > :09:35.important principle which will come up again and again. Because
:09:36. > :09:45.companies like they were having putting huge amounts of money --
:09:46. > :09:56.companies like Uber have been putting huge amount of money into
:09:57. > :09:59.blocking lawsuits by workers. There never is an argument that these
:10:00. > :10:06.platforms cannot wait all these benefits by taking a percentage of
:10:07. > :10:09.the total fees and not taking this possibility. It's great when
:10:10. > :10:14.everything is going well but when there is a debt or a problem you
:10:15. > :10:17.cannot transfer any liability to the provider without providing
:10:18. > :10:21.protections. But where it gets tricky, I have spoken to hundreds of
:10:22. > :10:27.these providers and many of these people do not want to be employed.
:10:28. > :10:31.Especially in the States... They may not want to be employed, but they
:10:32. > :10:37.may want to be treated fairly. I agree but the debate is getting lost
:10:38. > :10:39.as to whether these people are employees or independent
:10:40. > :10:46.contractors, because the categorisation is important to
:10:47. > :10:49.people. They care whether they have sick leave, whether insurance isn't
:10:50. > :10:56.appropriate. So we need to talk about how to create a whole new
:10:57. > :11:00.social safety net. This is where employment is heading. We can't
:11:01. > :11:05.return to where we were. Our future is where more and more work is
:11:06. > :11:11.delivered through platforms. Thank you. Later in the programme,
:11:12. > :11:17.we will be looking at government and trade bodies. But first, let's hear
:11:18. > :11:20.some words from our comedian. Here is the talking point.
:11:21. > :11:26.I thought it meant how many gigs are there for me?
:11:27. > :11:29.If there are lots of comedy gigs, the economy must be good.
:11:30. > :11:32.If there are not so many, the economy must be bad.
:11:33. > :11:34.Turns out, the gig economy is way bigger than that.
:11:35. > :11:39.It's not just at a comedy club, like the one behind me.
:11:40. > :11:41.Turns out, the whole world is a stage
:11:42. > :11:46.Players who are on demand, often from an app, at the touch
:11:47. > :11:52.Speaking of which, got to go to my next gig!
:11:53. > :11:56.Anyway, a funny thing happened to me on the way
:11:57. > :12:10.You see, the gig economy is a way of describing small-scale
:12:11. > :12:13.entrepreneurship where people work gigs, or small jobs
:12:14. > :12:17.instead of, or as well as, a full-time salaried job.
:12:18. > :12:19.It's supposed to give you lots of flexibility,
:12:20. > :12:26.And it's supposed to make you more productive.
:12:27. > :12:30.It allows consumers to browse their favourite products and brands,
:12:31. > :12:32.connect with a personal shopper and have those goods delivered
:12:33. > :12:38.For our customers, we demonstrate the app and they can browse whatever
:12:39. > :12:42.store as they are looking to shop from.
:12:43. > :12:44.They will choose their products, for their basket and they
:12:45. > :12:48.When that order is placed, is going through our fulfilment
:12:49. > :12:52.area, where we analysed a number of variables on which we will assign
:12:53. > :12:54.it to the best place personal picker who can fulfil that job
:12:55. > :12:58.within the time frame of the person who is buying it.
:12:59. > :13:00.Our personal shoppers are predominantly looking
:13:01. > :13:03.for flexible work so some of them have full-time jobs.
:13:04. > :13:06.They work evenings and weekends with us to get extra
:13:07. > :13:09.revenue and for them, it's an opportunity to do
:13:10. > :13:17.So what's in this gig for the personal shoppers?
:13:18. > :13:20.Is it something I could do in my spare time between gigs,
:13:21. > :13:23.not that I have spare time, because my gig economy is booming.
:13:24. > :13:27.It's not just personal shoppers' spare time that can be
:13:28. > :13:29.used to earn money, anything that is unused
:13:30. > :13:40.Andrea Lenahan is commercial director at Grid Finance.
:13:41. > :13:48.What we are trying to do is create a vehicle where by people can make
:13:49. > :13:52.straightforward decisions because the investment product is simple.
:13:53. > :13:58.But it doesn't take a lot of time. What attracted a lot of people to
:13:59. > :14:03.working in the gig economy is the uncertainty, the flexibility that
:14:04. > :14:08.they have to work from their own pace. The downside of that is the
:14:09. > :14:12.effect it has on planning for their future, planning for their
:14:13. > :14:16.retirement. So it turns out comedians are not the only ones in
:14:17. > :14:26.the gig economy. Speaking of which, I've just landed a new one, as a
:14:27. > :14:32.personal shopper. For my wife. Our in-house gig worker, column. You can
:14:33. > :14:40.see more of his short films on our website.
:14:41. > :14:46.Debbie and Elizabeth are still with us. We are discussing the gig
:14:47. > :14:53.economy. And if reversal from the standard business Gould joins us in
:14:54. > :14:57.our studio in New York. -- and a professor. Welcome. We were
:14:58. > :15:03.discussing workers' rights. Is it possible that the sharing economy is
:15:04. > :15:07.really only suitable for certain people in terms of those who offer
:15:08. > :15:12.their services, those who offer their labour? Well, I think what we
:15:13. > :15:18.have to think about the sharing economy as is the future of work.
:15:19. > :15:23.More and more of the jobs that we think about today as being full-time
:15:24. > :15:32.and salaries are going to shift over the next two decades to being more
:15:33. > :15:36.freelance, to shifting the role of the individual from a provider of
:15:37. > :15:41.labour for money towards the more independent and entrepreneurial.
:15:42. > :15:47.Once you unpack the structure of work itself, from the social
:15:48. > :15:55.contract that is wrapped around it you start to realise that the shift
:15:56. > :16:00.away from provider of labour and towards Ono of sorts, entrepreneur
:16:01. > :16:07.of sorts, is going to be a good shift in the long run. Elizabeth, I
:16:08. > :16:12.have a good idea you might disagree! Well, I think it depends whether you
:16:13. > :16:17.have any assets. Most of all just have our labour so just not earning
:16:18. > :16:21.money is not an option. Increasingly, you will see more and
:16:22. > :16:30.more resistance to this flexible as a nation of work. The delivery
:16:31. > :16:36.workers, had a strike, unheard of for such a campaign. They are
:16:37. > :16:40.probably scared of standing up for their rights because the phone
:16:41. > :16:44.stopped ringing. We will see more and more people the wine precarious
:16:45. > :16:48.conditions unable to continue in these conditions, they will join
:16:49. > :16:53.unions and they will organise and there will be more strikes. Does the
:16:54. > :16:58.sharing economy only really work if workers are not protected in the
:16:59. > :17:03.traditional way? I think there are a couple of different issues going on
:17:04. > :17:08.here. The first is, platforms working out how their business
:17:09. > :17:12.models work. And what we have seen with the delivery businesses in the
:17:13. > :17:18.last months is that if you look from a business does -- perspective in
:17:19. > :17:22.the demand economy, I know those margins are very small. If you are
:17:23. > :17:29.thinking about how you can get paid to people getting takeaway is
:17:30. > :17:34.delivered, you are dealing with single pounds. In order for that to
:17:35. > :17:38.work, the economic see the stack up. On the other side of the fence it is
:17:39. > :17:42.the case that people need to be paid the living wage. That is a piece of
:17:43. > :17:47.regulation that you cannot argue with. So those two things are
:17:48. > :17:51.clashing with each other. I am obviously in agreement with the
:17:52. > :17:54.professor that what we are inevitably finding, what we need to
:17:55. > :18:03.remember, is that there is vast majority of people who want to work
:18:04. > :18:06.more flexibly, and we should not ignore the fact that they are one of
:18:07. > :18:09.the key drivers of the changing of the nature of work. I think that is
:18:10. > :18:12.true but identity problem with the economy is the people that are
:18:13. > :18:17.working within it. As soon as you get rid of labour protections, they
:18:18. > :18:22.are gone. The rest of us who would prefer stable employment, don't have
:18:23. > :18:27.that protection any more. Professor, is that true, this flexible way of
:18:28. > :18:29.working, what people are calling a move towards a micro
:18:30. > :18:33.entrepreneurship, means that those of us who want a stable job means we
:18:34. > :18:39.will have our position is undermined? It is clear that the
:18:40. > :18:44.structure of full-time employment by itself is not the desirable thing
:18:45. > :18:49.here. It is all of the benefits and protections and stability that have
:18:50. > :18:52.been built around it. And we are at the early stages of building the
:18:53. > :18:58.same stalls of stability, protection around this new model of work but
:18:59. > :19:03.with the difference that instead of you being someone who is providing
:19:04. > :19:08.labour in exchange for a salary, you are becoming part of the production
:19:09. > :19:16.system. You are becoming to some small extent and owner of capital.
:19:17. > :19:20.If you are a home host you are an owner of the system which is
:19:21. > :19:24.producing the short-term accommodation. Or you are a
:19:25. > :19:28.retailer. You go away from being someone who is simply giving your
:19:29. > :19:32.labour in exchange for money and towards someone who is actually
:19:33. > :19:40.owner of the capital. And I think that is what the empowering shift
:19:41. > :19:46.is. At this point, things look more precarious for the freelance worker,
:19:47. > :19:50.the independent worker, but we are comparing work after 100 years of
:19:51. > :19:55.progress with a new form of platform based work. Debbie, what is the role
:19:56. > :20:02.of government in all of this? Government has a very important role
:20:03. > :20:06.to play. We often but up against regulation which is outdated and
:20:07. > :20:14.wishes not fit for purpose in a digital age. And -- and which is
:20:15. > :20:19.not. So if you look at the Greater London Powers act, which made you
:20:20. > :20:24.couldn't use Eddy Greater London, it was from the 1950s, which meant that
:20:25. > :20:28.you could not turn a council housing to a hotel. The challenge for
:20:29. > :20:33.government is the pace of change. Two years ago, all anybody wanted to
:20:34. > :20:44.talk about around the sharing economy was Eddie n.b., and a level
:20:45. > :20:53.playing field. -- air B Now it will be something else in two years'
:20:54. > :20:56.time. Professor, is it unlikely that governments have not picked up on
:20:57. > :21:01.the change or maybe they have dismissed it as something quirky? I
:21:02. > :21:04.think what they are having a tough time wrapping their heads around is
:21:05. > :21:09.that the lines between personal and professional are blurring in the
:21:10. > :21:14.provision of commercial services. I think short-term accommodation is a
:21:15. > :21:19.great example. Someone is hosting in their homes instead of working in a
:21:20. > :21:22.hotel. This is the future of work in some industries but the protections
:21:23. > :21:27.that we have right now are designed with the expectation that we will
:21:28. > :21:30.see full-time employment and full-time professionals. So I am
:21:31. > :21:34.cautiously optimistic that government in the UK and the United
:21:35. > :21:41.States is starting to see that there are big challenges ahead but there
:21:42. > :21:46.is certainly movement. There we must leave it. Thank you very much to all
:21:47. > :21:53.of it. Professor, Dr Cotton, and Debbie Roscoe -- was go.
:21:54. > :21:58.That's it. Join us next week when our reporter will be in Hanoi
:21:59. > :22:01.looking at the indications of an ageing population for Asia.