:00:00. > :00:00.Now on BBC News it's talking business.
:00:00. > :00:09.In a world teeming with products and messages, how do
:00:10. > :00:17.In this week's Talking Business, how big names survive in this
:00:18. > :00:45.Welcome to the programme, I'm Tanya Beckett.
:00:46. > :00:48.The explosion of media from Snapchat to Breitbart has fragmented
:00:49. > :00:53.The days when half a country's population would watch or listen
:00:54. > :00:57.to a programme or an event live at the same time, are gone.
:00:58. > :01:01.So, how do big brands reach disparate consumers on such
:01:02. > :01:05.And how do they remain relevant and inspire
:01:06. > :01:11.Here to discuss it are three industry experts.
:01:12. > :01:14.Johannes Smith is co-founder of the agency Hugo Cat,
:01:15. > :01:18.which specialises in digital strategies for big-name brands.
:01:19. > :01:22.Rita Clifton, CBE, is chairman of the consultancy BrandCap.
:01:23. > :01:27.And, Dominique Delport is global managing director of marketing
:01:28. > :01:33.and communications giant Havas media group.
:01:34. > :01:41.Dominique, what happened of course in the last few years,
:01:42. > :01:43.very obviously in your world is the rise of social
:01:44. > :01:47.How has that changed the way people perceive brands
:01:48. > :01:50.I think for the first time in history you've got that scale.
:01:51. > :01:52.1 billion people connected to the same platform,
:01:53. > :01:59.I think for the first time it reversed the mechanism,
:02:00. > :02:05.Everyone is able to push comments, positive or negative,
:02:06. > :02:12.So brands are not managing the conversation any more.
:02:13. > :02:16.They need to look at what people say, because when they say it loud
:02:17. > :02:19.it can destroy a reputation in a few days.
:02:20. > :02:24.So you've got that complete inversion of that
:02:25. > :02:30.I think brands understand that if they don't go
:02:31. > :02:32.intimately to this platform, Snapchat is very
:02:33. > :02:38.If you apply the same strategy, you fail.
:02:39. > :02:41.So you need really to go in-depth into every platform and I'm not
:02:42. > :02:46.talking about the Chinese platform or the Korean or Japanese,
:02:47. > :02:49.so every country have developed its own way to integrate
:02:50. > :02:53.services, brands, commerce, it's a brand New World.
:02:54. > :02:58.So, Rita, if one were to summarise what Dominique is saying there,
:02:59. > :03:00.first of all your brand can be very easily destroyed in social media
:03:01. > :03:02.because what we call the democratisation of media,
:03:03. > :03:05.meaning everybody is contributing to the media content and each
:03:06. > :03:08.type of social media, each platform has its own way
:03:09. > :03:12.of operating and it needs to be understood?
:03:13. > :03:15.In the digital age, if people talk about sexy YouTube videos,
:03:16. > :03:19.social media stance and everything else, but actually the killer
:03:20. > :03:22.insight about that is you've got to be a really great business
:03:23. > :03:27.So absolutely, we need to get into conversations.
:03:28. > :03:29.Brands need to get into conversations.
:03:30. > :03:32.But of course, you need to do something to get into those
:03:33. > :03:35.conversations properly and also to earn trust.
:03:36. > :03:37.Because in the digital age everything is visible,
:03:38. > :03:42.What that means is that there's no big brands spending lots of money
:03:43. > :03:45.on marketing communication, however smart, however beautiful
:03:46. > :03:49.If they are not as good on the inside as they are
:03:50. > :03:53.on the outside, people are going to find out and they're
:03:54. > :03:56.going to find out really, really quickly with a scale
:03:57. > :03:58.and a speed that will take your breath away.
:03:59. > :04:01.Johannes, it suggests a little bit the type of brand you build and how
:04:02. > :04:04.you build it is very affected by social media?
:04:05. > :04:08.Absolutely and I think you can't script it any more,
:04:09. > :04:13.you've got to listen to the audience and understand what people actually
:04:14. > :04:16.want and what the emotional triggers are, what people respond to and then
:04:17. > :04:17.build the brand around those emotional triggers.
:04:18. > :04:20.That's how you build a great brand these days,
:04:21. > :04:22.by really understanding the audience and really listening and building
:04:23. > :04:27.But it has to be true, as Rita says, it has to actually resonate
:04:28. > :04:39.So it's not really a case of going into a boardroom or sitting
:04:40. > :04:42.in an ivory tower and drawing out a plan and that's it.
:04:43. > :04:45.And it has to be a very responsive process,
:04:46. > :04:46.is that what we are saying, Dominique?
:04:47. > :04:49.Yes, and there is a big lack of trust now.
:04:50. > :04:53.If we look at some surveys, 74% of brands could disappear overnight.
:04:54. > :04:55.What do you mean, they could disappear?
:04:56. > :04:59.People don't care, they could skip, there is such an oversupply
:05:00. > :05:02.of brands, that people have a choice and they are very mature consumers.
:05:03. > :05:04.They can go online, they can disrupt traditional retail,
:05:05. > :05:08.so that really is a new empowered consumer that really
:05:09. > :05:12.wants to understand, what is a trade-off?
:05:13. > :05:15.That is a pivotal moment in brand marketing.
:05:16. > :05:19.Advertising is good, it boosts the economic machine,
:05:20. > :05:22.it creates jobs, there is a lot of positivity around that,
:05:23. > :05:25.but on the other hand, you need transparency.
:05:26. > :05:28.With the other thing that's very noticeable
:05:29. > :05:31.is that if you have bought, for example, a pair of shoes,
:05:32. > :05:34.or whatever it is that you've bought you notice you are on your computer
:05:35. > :05:41.Johannes, or maybe Rita, does anybody know how an algorithm works?
:05:42. > :05:45.I think that's a good question for Dominique, absolutely.
:05:46. > :05:48.It's like cooking, you've got ingredients but you need a recipe
:05:49. > :06:00.That's a very nice way of describing them.
:06:01. > :06:03.We have got a scientist, mathematician expert who writes
:06:04. > :06:06.algorithm like they can write poetry in a way.
:06:07. > :06:08.You have to understand these big platforms, Google, Facebook,
:06:09. > :06:15.Google page ranks all the websites, Facebook is edge ranked
:06:16. > :06:18.with everyone on the same platform, but every profile and news feed
:06:19. > :06:22.is different due to your choice, behaviours and taste.
:06:23. > :06:27.So these mathematical environments enabled them automation.
:06:28. > :06:30.What we have seen with the financial markets a few years ago is coming
:06:31. > :06:36.So, instead of calling the BBC, calling the Mail or the Times to buy
:06:37. > :06:38.some advertising space, now everything is
:06:39. > :06:48.But when it gets it right it's great, but when it gets it wrong?
:06:49. > :06:57.A pair of shoes have been following me around
:06:58. > :06:59.for a very long time, I can assure you.
:07:00. > :07:04.But I think what's really interesting and maybe an irony
:07:05. > :07:07.about the loss of trust is that in this explosion of channels,
:07:08. > :07:09.conversations and every thing else, it's never been more important
:07:10. > :07:12.to find brands to be able to navigate to people you can trust.
:07:13. > :07:15.Because actually, human beings aren't going to be able to stay
:07:16. > :07:17.awake for long enough to read all the rubbish people
:07:18. > :07:19.put on mobile sites, websites and everything else.
:07:20. > :07:25.You need to be able to go to brands you trust and if you trust those
:07:26. > :07:28.brands, you want to spend time with them and you will buy more
:07:29. > :07:31.Every now and again, particularly when we have such
:07:32. > :07:33.an extraordinary change in the digital world
:07:34. > :07:36.where there is a consumer downturn, maybe, you read articles about,
:07:37. > :07:47.is this twilight of the brands, is this death of the brands
:07:48. > :07:50.because products and prices are now laid bare in the digital age.
:07:51. > :07:53.The thing is, you've got to be able to find places you trust
:07:54. > :07:56.That's why brands are really, really important.
:07:57. > :07:58.What's really interesting there is, as you said, Dominique,
:07:59. > :08:01.It is optimised dynamically as you go, but I think increasingly
:08:02. > :08:04.what we are seeing is the whole experience is becoming
:08:05. > :08:07.All interaction you have with the brand, not just advertising
:08:08. > :08:10.but all the little experiences we have with the brands
:08:11. > :08:12.are being optimised on-the-fly by looking at the data,
:08:13. > :08:14.looking at what kind of customer you are,
:08:15. > :08:17.looking at what you've done before and trying to give you the best
:08:18. > :08:20.What's interesting is that people don't tend to
:08:21. > :08:24.They said that they don't trust adverts, but they do want a valuable
:08:25. > :08:26.exchange with the brand, they want relevant promotions
:08:27. > :08:30.So they are willing to give up a little bit of data in return
:08:31. > :08:33.for something and I think brands increasingly have to think about
:08:34. > :08:38.So if they are going to harvest data and be clever about it,
:08:39. > :08:40.they have to give something back and people are open to that.
:08:41. > :08:44.They can give relevant promotions, they can understand what you've been
:08:45. > :08:46.buying before and say, if you buy certain things,
:08:47. > :08:50.we might be able to give you a little bit of a discount,
:08:51. > :08:52.we might be able to optimise the experience for you,
:08:53. > :08:59.Imagine you have kids with a food allergy,
:09:00. > :09:02.you will really seek advice and tips for brands that understand
:09:03. > :09:04.these kinds of allergies and can indicate what are good products
:09:05. > :09:07.for the allergy and the right product for you.
:09:08. > :09:10.So you need absolutely to have that kind of knowledge
:09:11. > :09:16.I think brands need to provide more services, not just a product.
:09:17. > :09:21.It is what we are studying and TV still is a phenomenal medium.
:09:22. > :09:25.Something with Heathrow Airport, they did a TV advert with the two
:09:26. > :09:29.bears and it has been incredibly successful because people want
:09:30. > :09:34.emotion and the big TV screen is also, despite the digital
:09:35. > :09:39.success, a phenomenal way to convey emotion
:09:40. > :09:44.I think that's a really important point here.
:09:45. > :09:47.It is so exciting what one can do these days in terms of automation
:09:48. > :09:59.and terms of chromatic marketing and so on, it's very truly exciting.
:10:00. > :10:01.and terms of programme marketing and so on,
:10:02. > :10:08.But in the end sometimes some core principles still apply, don't they,
:10:09. > :10:11.to building a brand in whatever age, you have to be clear
:10:12. > :10:17.You have to be coherent about how that shows up
:10:18. > :10:19.through everything you do, the whole experience.
:10:20. > :10:22.You've got to make sure you keep on innovating and keep
:10:23. > :10:26.You just happen to have lots of channels to do that and frankly,
:10:27. > :10:29.if you are not doing it properly, there are endless ways
:10:30. > :10:32.And what it is as well, it is an opportunity for brands
:10:33. > :10:35.to innovate all this data, they can try things so much faster
:10:36. > :10:39.They can launch new products, launch new services and if it
:10:40. > :10:44.So, later in the programme we'll examine how brands
:10:45. > :10:45.are creating challenges, education campaigns and media
:10:46. > :10:48.content in the hope of converting us from fickle customers
:10:49. > :10:56.But first our comedy consultant and man brand Colm O'Regan takes
:10:57. > :11:00.In today's era of globalised business, countries just
:11:01. > :11:06.like products and services, our brands themselves.
:11:07. > :11:13.There was a time when images of Ireland were lazy,
:11:14. > :11:15.stereotypes consisting mainly of drinking, fighting
:11:16. > :11:26.Today Ireland is a far more contemporary image
:11:27. > :11:30.What are the elements that go to make up our brand
:11:31. > :11:33.as a country and I wonder, can I think of a snappy
:11:34. > :11:39.The Irish and Brand Ireland is a huge entity and there's
:11:40. > :11:45.Our focus is making sure the corporate world understands why
:11:46. > :11:47.Ireland is a great place to do business.
:11:48. > :11:50.It is a competition to win investment worldwide.
:11:51. > :11:54.Often times, when our executives are walking into boardrooms to pitch
:11:55. > :11:56.for certain bits of business, they are meeting their competitors
:11:57. > :11:58.from other countries that they will make next week
:11:59. > :12:01.in Paris, that they will meet next week in Singapore,
:12:02. > :12:04.so Ireland as a brand, is being represented through the IDA
:12:05. > :12:07.in all of those boardrooms and we are pitching hard
:12:08. > :12:17.About 70% of the foreign investment that comes
:12:18. > :12:21.Ireland now is some ominous with countries like Google,
:12:22. > :12:23.Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, having their European
:12:24. > :12:30.They are very powerful reference sells for us across the world.
:12:31. > :12:32.When one company sees their competitor going
:12:33. > :12:33.to the jurisdiction, they begin to ask questions,
:12:34. > :12:40.But how do you create a strong national brand in a global context?
:12:41. > :12:42.One industry that does that is the airline industry.
:12:43. > :12:44.Aer Lingus is Ireland's national airline, having
:12:45. > :12:50.Its mission then, to connect Ireland to the world.
:12:51. > :13:00.Everybody knows us for warmth and friendliness.
:13:01. > :13:02.However, when we go globally, that's extremely important and it's
:13:03. > :13:05.But we need to do other things as well.
:13:06. > :13:08.Ireland is marketed as a global business destination,
:13:09. > :13:11.obviously a lot of big businesses are based here so we have to make
:13:12. > :13:14.sure that for the business traveller we have a very good
:13:15. > :13:19.We need to be very professional, most passengers like for us to be
:13:20. > :13:22.on time, they like a punctual airline with the Aer Lingus unique
:13:23. > :13:30.So that's it, Ireland, the small country but the global brand.
:13:31. > :13:34.Now, to try and sum it up with a snappy description.
:13:35. > :13:37.Maybe I could adapt an existing advertising slogan?
:13:38. > :13:47.Clowns to the left of us, jokers to the right.
:13:48. > :13:51.I still haven't found what I'm looking for.
:13:52. > :13:57.Colm O'Regan, with his take on brand Ireland.
:13:58. > :13:59.Colm O'Regan, with his take on Brand Ireland.
:14:00. > :14:06.Remember, you can see more of his short films on our website.
:14:07. > :14:10.Our guests are Dominique, Rita and Johannes and they are still
:14:11. > :14:25.Rita, perhaps you could start us off with that, what does it mean
:14:26. > :14:28.to be what we describe as a meaningful brand?
:14:29. > :14:31.I think there are a number of different ways of describing it.
:14:32. > :14:33.They are brands that are particularly relevant
:14:34. > :14:37.I know that sounds completely obvious, but to be truly successful
:14:38. > :14:39.you need to elevate it beyond relevance to people
:14:40. > :14:41.rationally loving and promoting your brand too.
:14:42. > :14:43.Apple is a classic example, it must be be overused
:14:44. > :14:46.case study in the world, but people queue around the corner
:14:47. > :14:52.If you think of those brands that have become almost
:14:53. > :15:01.These are brands like Amazon, brands like John Lewis Partnership
:15:02. > :15:04.in the UK, more broadly maybe brands like Facebook and Google.
:15:05. > :15:10.These are brands that wrap themselves around
:15:11. > :15:13.you and your lives, they can understand a lot about you.
:15:14. > :15:15.You trust them to sort out some of your problems.
:15:16. > :15:19.Yes, to go and find products for you, actually to be a gateway
:15:20. > :15:21.into conversations with friends and family and so on.
:15:22. > :15:24.And they simplify your life and navigate a lot of the stuff that
:15:25. > :15:28.Dominique, your company has done a study of what I meaningful brand
:15:29. > :15:31.Dominique, your company has done a study of what a meaningful brand
:15:32. > :15:34.is and what is noticeable, is the words that come
:15:35. > :15:36.at the top have a lot to do with organising your life,
:15:37. > :15:40.As Rita said, we studied 350,000 consumers in 33 countries,
:15:41. > :15:42.asking them what is a meaningful brand for you?
:15:43. > :15:45.As I said, it is a personal feeling, perception, I want that brand
:15:46. > :15:48.to make my life easier, I want great value for money,
:15:49. > :15:51.I want innovation, but also I want an impact for my community.
:15:52. > :15:52.My family, my neighbourhood, great employer, sustainability
:15:53. > :15:55.practices, transparency, ethics, all of these components
:15:56. > :16:03.And when we look at that, yes, Amazon, WhatsApp or PayPal,
:16:04. > :16:06.when you look at Apple, Apple is not perceived
:16:07. > :16:08.as a meaningful because it's too expensive.
:16:09. > :16:11.So if you look in 33 countries, it still foreign elite,
:16:12. > :16:16.For those people, it's a passion brand.
:16:17. > :16:24.If you have the money for buying these products, of course,
:16:25. > :16:29.And when we look at how these brands have performed
:16:30. > :16:34.in the stock market, plus 206%, it is massive.
:16:35. > :16:36.If you are relevant for your audience, then
:16:37. > :16:39.Close to the heart, close to the wallets.
:16:40. > :16:41.They are going to overspend with your brands...
:16:42. > :16:43.Close to the heart, close to the wallet,
:16:44. > :16:50.It is interesting, as I said, that these are lifestyle brands,
:16:51. > :16:53.things that organise your life for you, but that might be just
:16:54. > :16:55.a function of the fact that information technology has developed
:16:56. > :17:00.I think it is to a larger extent and I think now that people interact
:17:01. > :17:03.with brands in so many different ways, brands have to be much more
:17:04. > :17:07.mindful about the entire experience they create with brands,
:17:08. > :17:09.from the initial awareness where people interact and they search,
:17:10. > :17:11.how people find brands, whether it is through
:17:12. > :17:16.Right the way through to the interactions on the mobile app,
:17:17. > :17:19.on the website, in the stores, the user interface, all of it
:17:20. > :17:24.One little weakness in that chain ruins brand perception
:17:25. > :17:26.because people expect these brands to just be extremely good
:17:27. > :17:32.There is so much competition, it's so easy to change from one
:17:33. > :17:34.brand to another now, you can just download
:17:35. > :17:36.another app and move from one brand to another,
:17:37. > :17:41.If you were to go onto site for socks, for socks, for example,
:17:42. > :17:53.We are talking about something like 84, 85% of customers
:17:54. > :17:59.are influenced in their purchases by the recommendations of friends.
:18:00. > :18:02.People would tend to believe any of the consumers rather
:18:03. > :18:03.than the corporation who's trying to sell.
:18:04. > :18:06.So, at every stage of the research, the recommendation, the buying,
:18:07. > :18:08.the review process, you can be hijacked.
:18:09. > :18:10.You might be in pole position in people's minds,
:18:11. > :18:13.but if they go online and they find out someone hates you
:18:14. > :18:20.This is why the only remedy in this brand New World,
:18:21. > :18:24.is you've got to be really, really good at what you do and your
:18:25. > :18:27.staff and your people have got to believe in what you are doing,
:18:28. > :18:29.they've got to build a consistent idea together they're prepared
:18:30. > :18:32.to tell other people about and they need to make
:18:33. > :18:34.people love you so much, they will go and tell other
:18:35. > :18:37.That is the cheapest way to do marketing.
:18:38. > :18:40.Dominique, I want to come back to what you said at the beginning.
:18:41. > :18:43.There needs to be this lifestyle aspect to it.
:18:44. > :18:45.In a way in needs to represent something more
:18:46. > :18:47.to you than just the products itself, something about...
:18:48. > :18:49.How do you transcend just being a brand?
:18:50. > :18:52.More and more people expect from brands, they will produce more
:18:53. > :18:55.content about the process, the components of the brand,
:18:56. > :19:03.For instance, 71% of consumers expect brands to produce content
:19:04. > :19:11.They want to know better, what's behind the stage.
:19:12. > :19:14.This is one of the big areas for brands now,
:19:15. > :19:37.Look at a platform like net flicks, there isn't one single advert. If
:19:38. > :19:42.they blocked, brands have to think of another way. Companies often
:19:43. > :19:49.advertise describing inexperience rather than the product itself?
:19:50. > :19:53.Brands have to describe experience. It is very transparent and they
:19:54. > :19:59.cannot create this image that is untrue. If we look at trust. It is
:20:00. > :20:02.tapping into emotions and understanding customers and how to
:20:03. > :20:13.respond to those emotions, whether it is creating entertainment. For an
:20:14. > :20:21.example? Inside Out all these different emotions, it is joy, it
:20:22. > :20:26.could be fear. Understanding where people might have moments of fear,
:20:27. > :20:30.worried about identity theft and brands can respond to that and
:20:31. > :20:35.reassure and build trust. One of the reasons I think Amazon was so
:20:36. > :20:39.successful, it is an incredibly successful retailer that doesn't
:20:40. > :20:45.have any shops, you don't talk to anybody. But it has content? It
:20:46. > :20:49.absolutely has content. It understood people would be anxious
:20:50. > :20:52.about logistics, getting their deliveries on time and securing
:20:53. > :20:57.payment. They totally understood that and they were reliable for
:20:58. > :21:01.delivering it. And that is how they started building of trust, because
:21:02. > :21:06.they delivered. You have noticed that where you do have high street
:21:07. > :21:11.shops, they have become a lifestyle experience. You go in and it is all
:21:12. > :21:18.going on, plenty of show and tell, it is not just rails and shelves? A
:21:19. > :21:22.lot of stores are not there to make money within the shop, they are
:21:23. > :21:26.there to build brand perception and build experience and showcase what
:21:27. > :21:32.the brand is about and showcased the connection with the story. You have
:21:33. > :21:36.brands who have done very well through the recession from 2008
:21:37. > :21:43.because they had a truthful story. The founder is passionate about the
:21:44. > :21:50.product. Passionate about sport. That authenticity shines through.
:21:51. > :22:00.But also the flow from online, it has to be able to sustain those.
:22:01. > :22:04.Extraordinary brands manage the combination of stores, online. Using
:22:05. > :22:16.catwalk shows to tweets to the world. Label was dying brand, now it
:22:17. > :22:20.is a movie boosts sales. It is a store where experience is
:22:21. > :22:28.everything. The seamless is important. Thank you very much to
:22:29. > :22:38.all of you, Rita, Johannes and Dominique. Join us again next week
:22:39. > :22:38.when we will be in Singapore discussing China's rising
:22:39. > :22:56.imperialism. Goodbye. Good evening. The mild theme to the
:22:57. > :23:01.weather continues. We saw temperatures as high as 15 degrees
:23:02. > :23:03.across parts of Wales earlier. Not everywhere saw the sunshine. This
:23:04. > :23:04.was