0:00:01 > 0:00:04Good evening and welcome to Taro 9.
0:00:04 > 0:00:07One of Wales's treasures is about to be sold...
0:00:07 > 0:00:11..to a company that provides water for Liverpool.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14But the local community and Wales's politicians say...
0:00:14 > 0:00:18..they've been ignored and are concerned about the future.
0:00:18 > 0:00:23I don't want these places only to provide water to England.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27888
0:00:29 > 0:00:32For the last century, providing water to England's cities...
0:00:32 > 0:00:36..has been a controversial part of Wales's history.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40The Vyrnwy Estate is the latest to be in the headlines.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43It follows 12 months of uncertainty...
0:00:43 > 0:00:47..after the estate was put up for sale last year.
0:00:47 > 0:00:51As the British Government prepare plans for future water usage...
0:00:51 > 0:00:56..some are asking is providing water to England taking priority...
0:00:56 > 0:00:58..over the lives of Welsh people?
0:01:14 > 0:01:19I made it clear, in no uncertain terms, how fed up we were...
0:01:20 > 0:01:23..with the appalling conditions on the estate...
0:01:23 > 0:01:27..and the lack of interest by Severn Trent.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31They've failed in not even coming to talk to us.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35We want to go down to Severn Trent offices...
0:01:35 > 0:01:41..they're sitting on their behinds, and give them a hard time of it.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45I'm 70-years-old but I'm willing to go down there.
0:01:46 > 0:01:47The faces speak volumes.
0:01:48 > 0:01:53This is the ninth meeting in a year for the people of Llanwddyn.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57It's the ninth time the estate owners have failed to turn up.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01They're not listening.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01We haven't got a voice.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04Nobody's listening to what we say.
0:02:04 > 0:02:09They're accusing Severn Trent of allowing the estate to deteriorate..
0:02:09 > 0:02:12..and of having only one interest.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17Water has brought destruction and prosperity here for 100 years.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22The old Llanwddyn can only be seen in photographs.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25It was destroyed by Liverpool in the 19th Century...
0:02:25 > 0:02:30..to provide water for its people and industries.
0:02:30 > 0:02:34Another village and dam were built that changed the landscape.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37It was Europe's largest artificial lake.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41They say you can see it from Space.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46It was one of the most pioneering engineering projects of its day.
0:02:46 > 0:02:51Liverpool saw it is as almost a foreign ownership.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56They saw the community as their responsibility.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59You can see this in the city's records.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02They felt they had a paternal responsibility...
0:03:02 > 0:03:05..over the people who lived there.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09People like Brian Ellis. He's a tenant farmer on the estate.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13He's been dependant on the estate throughout his life.
0:03:13 > 0:03:17I've walked every inch of it while rounding up sheep here.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20I left school and saw the Land Agent...
0:03:20 > 0:03:24..who gave me a job as a painter and decorator.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26I worked for the water gang.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30Shortly after, I went to work on the farm.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35There came a turning point after the industry was reorganised in '74.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40Responsibility for the supply went to North West Water Authority...
0:03:42 > 0:03:43..who supplied Liverpool.
0:03:43 > 0:03:47Severn Trent took over the estate and the reservoir.
0:03:47 > 0:03:50They were responsible for the local area.
0:03:50 > 0:03:55Severn Trent took it over and I remember a meeting in the village.
0:03:55 > 0:04:00In that meeting they said, "Nothing will change.
0:04:00 > 0:04:06"The only change you'll see is a different name on a pay packet."
0:04:06 > 0:04:10There used to be 90 people working on the estate back then.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13There's nobody here now.
0:04:13 > 0:04:19This is an environmental treasure and as the owners' role changed...
0:04:19 > 0:04:23..the RSPB came in to protect the area.
0:04:23 > 0:04:28Their vision is to protect wildlife and ensure people can enjoy it.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32The charity controls half the estate including the largest farm.
0:04:32 > 0:04:38Cyril Roberts worked as a shepherd for the RSPB and Severn Trent.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42He's concerned the village built to replace the drowned one...
0:04:42 > 0:04:45..is also dying.
0:04:45 > 0:04:51At one time, everyone who lived in these houses worked for the estate?
0:04:51 > 0:04:57Oh, yes. When I came here many years ago in 1974...
0:04:57 > 0:05:00..there were more than 80 working for the estate.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02The school was full of children.
0:05:03 > 0:05:07There were 60 pupils here when my children attended the school.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10Things have gone down since then.
0:05:10 > 0:05:16It went downhill and the school has been closed for two years.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19At least 18 months.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19But there isn't any work here.
0:05:20 > 0:05:25There are some jobs in the hotel and a few on the farm.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30None of the local men work here now.
0:05:30 > 0:05:36Some blame the lack of maintenance work done by Severn Trent.
0:05:36 > 0:05:41It's been a private company since the 80s and has its HQ in Coventry.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45Tourists now create work in the area.
0:05:45 > 0:05:49There are concerns the deterioration could affect the tourist industry.
0:05:49 > 0:05:54The owner of a local B&B says it's been getting worse for years.
0:05:55 > 0:05:56Look at this.
0:05:57 > 0:06:01There are about 20, even more, right down this road.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03They are dangerous.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07If a bike's front wheel gets caught, someone will get hurt.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10Another thing, if you come over here.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14This fence is rusty.
0:06:14 > 0:06:19If a child runs his hand on this he'll get hurt.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22They should clean them up and paint them.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26It would look so much better for people who stay here...
0:06:26 > 0:06:29..if it was nice and white.
0:06:29 > 0:06:34The lack of investment can be seen clearer around the lake.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39A number of farms that used to be homes are now empty.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42Family life here is just a memory.
0:06:44 > 0:06:49This is the perfect place for a home with the lake behind you.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51A beautiful spot to raise children.
0:06:51 > 0:06:56But this house, Llechwedd Ddu, is empty and crumbling.
0:06:57 > 0:07:02Just like many other houses on the estate, it's nearly a ruin.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07Despite concerns about the company's disinterest in the estate...
0:07:07 > 0:07:12..residents were given a shock last summer.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15I always asked the agent questions.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18"Give it time, everything will be alright."
0:07:19 > 0:07:24One Sunday I received a letter saying the place was up for sale.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26I wasn't told anything before that.
0:07:26 > 0:07:30Surveys were done. "What's it for?" "Oh, just routine."
0:07:31 > 0:07:35The surveys were done for perspective buyers.
0:07:35 > 0:07:41The estate's lease for the next 125 years was on the market.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45£11 million for 20,000 acres of a beautiful area...
0:07:45 > 0:07:48..that had been split into four parts.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51Included were agricultural land, the RSPB farm...
0:07:51 > 0:07:55..5,000 acres of forestry and more than 30 buildings...
0:07:55 > 0:07:58..which are homes, businesses and farms.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03Local people wanted to know more and public meetings were held.
0:08:03 > 0:08:08There was no sign of Severn Trent to answer their concerns.
0:08:08 > 0:08:14The RSPB wanted to make an offer for part of the lease.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17We've made an offer for lots one and two...
0:08:18 > 0:08:20..which include the farm we manage.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25We've done a lot of conservation work there as well.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30Those are the lots where are our interests lie...
0:08:30 > 0:08:34..and where we do most of the work.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38Rhys Jones, originally from Bala, also wanted the lease.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42He's a millionaire who has his business in Europe.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44He wanted to create jobs.
0:08:44 > 0:08:49We want to invest in it and build things like stone walls...
0:08:49 > 0:08:53..things that won't give us any return.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57We want to attract biking and canoeing and use the lake.
0:08:58 > 0:09:00He had local support.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03Rhys Jones.
0:09:02 > 0:09:03Why's that?
0:09:03 > 0:09:09He's Welsh and so is nearer to my heart as he's from Bala.
0:09:09 > 0:09:13He will look after the local people and the area.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15I like him.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18An opinion poll was conducted by the community council...
0:09:19 > 0:09:22..to find out what local people favoured.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Top of the list was investment and job creation.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28Many were unhappy with Severn Trent.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31Some wanted the lease given to Rhys Jones.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Others criticized the RSPB's work, which was unfair and unfounded..
0:09:35 > 0:09:37..according to the charity.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42Severn Trent refused an interview but said they were aware...
0:09:42 > 0:09:45..of local criticism and had organized consultation days...
0:09:46 > 0:09:47..to answer questions.
0:09:48 > 0:09:52It's been a slow process to ensure the right decision is made...
0:09:52 > 0:09:57..to benefit the community, environment and the estate.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01Two months ago, the announcement came as a shock.
0:10:01 > 0:10:06The first choice was another private water company, United Utilities...
0:10:06 > 0:10:09..working in conjunction with RSPB Cymru.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13The company gets its water from Lake Vyrnwy.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15It did not attend any public meetings.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19They are now afraid, with United Utilities...
0:10:19 > 0:10:24..that it will be the same as Severn Trent. It's a water company.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26Whether it will be better.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29The estate is likely to be separated.
0:10:30 > 0:10:35United Utilities and the RSPB are first choice for swathes of land.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39Investment company FIM is likely to own the trees.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42There has been no mention of the buildings.
0:10:42 > 0:10:48The sellers have requested that all parties sign a privacy agreement.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52A year after the sale was agreed, many are left in the dark.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56Farmers like Brian Ellis expect several landlords instead of one.
0:10:57 > 0:11:01We've got right of way, but you never know...
0:11:01 > 0:11:05..maybe they'll want something we can't offer.
0:11:05 > 0:11:10You know when you say, "RSPB owns this, you own that."
0:11:10 > 0:11:12Does it make life difficult?
0:11:12 > 0:11:15I'd say that it will do before long.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19You never know who you'll be dealing with.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23We've heard nothing apart from the letter I was sent.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26Nobody's said anything.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26Nobody's arranged a meeting?
0:11:27 > 0:11:30Nothing at all.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Have you received a phone call?
0:11:30 > 0:11:32Nothing at all.
0:11:32 > 0:11:37Most homes here are now owned by older people.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41If rent is increased, they won't be able to pay.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45Things might even be better under the new system.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48It won't necessarily be worse.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52The situation doesn't have to worsen. Things could even improve.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55It's just that nobody knows.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59That is what is worrying people.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03What is in store for this piece of land?
0:12:03 > 0:12:06The Countryside Council is holding a three-month consultation.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10They will present their findings to Westminster, not the Assembly.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14The RSPB hopes to secure a sustainable future for the estate...
0:12:14 > 0:12:16..through establishing visitor facilities.
0:12:16 > 0:12:21They hope to gain permission to reveal other plans soon.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25Secrecy is causing disquiet. Why sell to a competitor?
0:12:26 > 0:12:28What is being discussed behind closed doors?
0:12:41 > 0:12:45If Wales has one natural resource in plentiful supply...
0:12:45 > 0:12:48..it's clear to see what that would be.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51# Oh Mrs Rain. #
0:12:52 > 0:12:55Climate change and an increasing population mean water...
0:12:55 > 0:12:57..will be scarce in future.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01Because of the turbulent history over flooding Tryweryn...
0:13:01 > 0:13:06..there are concerns when two English companies bid for Welsh land.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10Severn Trent owns the water in this reservoir.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14When that water reaches the tower behind me...
0:13:14 > 0:13:19..and is piped to Liverpool, it is owned by United Utilities.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23That arrangement will not change under the new agreement...
0:13:23 > 0:13:28..but what will change is that United Utilities will own the land...
0:13:28 > 0:13:30..surrounding this reservoir.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32Local people have been asking me today...
0:13:33 > 0:13:35..why United Utilities requires the land...
0:13:35 > 0:13:38..if it owns the water anyhow.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43For a man who knows the place, the same resource...
0:13:43 > 0:13:46..has attracted people there for more than a century.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50The CCW look after everything on the mountains.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52They want to dig the trenches.
0:13:52 > 0:13:56United Utilities have been talking about the water.
0:13:56 > 0:14:01I wonder whether they will take water out to put in the lake.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04That's all I can think of.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08Dealing with drought is a problem for water companies.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Last summer, United Utilities restricted the water use...
0:14:11 > 0:14:14..of their customers in the North West...
0:14:14 > 0:14:21..for the first time in 14 years due to the low levels in reservoirs.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25United Utilities have discussed ways of getting more water...
0:14:25 > 0:14:29..from Lake Vyrnwy with Severn Trent but decided it wasn't an option.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32Both companies want to make it easier...
0:14:33 > 0:14:36..for companies to sell water to each other.
0:14:36 > 0:14:41Water companies hope the business will become unregulated.
0:14:41 > 0:14:46That would allow them to to sell water from one area to another.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48In London, for example...
0:14:48 > 0:14:51..almost every summer we receive letters...
0:14:51 > 0:14:54..telling us not to use water in the garden...
0:14:55 > 0:14:57..because there isn't enough water.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01In Wales and Scotland there's plenty of water.
0:15:01 > 0:15:06I think United Utilities want to get their hands on more water...
0:15:07 > 0:15:11..in order to sell it to people like Southern Water...
0:15:11 > 0:15:12..or Thames Water.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16But without more rainfall...
0:15:16 > 0:15:19..and because there's already a dam in the valley...
0:15:19 > 0:15:23..is getting more water from the area an option?
0:15:23 > 0:15:27You can see why people think we need more water...
0:15:27 > 0:15:32..because water shortages are going to be a problem...
0:15:33 > 0:15:36..in some areas in the future.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40In terms of Lake Vyrnwy itself...
0:15:40 > 0:15:45..I can't see a practical way...
0:15:45 > 0:15:49..of getting more water out of that area...
0:15:49 > 0:15:54..because all the water goes to the reservoir anyway.
0:15:54 > 0:15:59I don't think increasing the volume of water they get...
0:15:59 > 0:16:01..is a realistic intention.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05United Utilities didn't want to be interviewed about Vyrnwy...
0:16:05 > 0:16:07..for confidentiality reasons.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10They just said they would stick to the company's ethos.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20In the Forest of Bowland in the Pennines...
0:16:20 > 0:16:24..there's a clue to what could happen to Lake Vyrnwy.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26United Utilities owns this catchment area.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31The company started a SCaMP scheme to improve the water quality...
0:16:31 > 0:16:35..by protecting the land around the reservoir with the RSPB.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38They are encouraging farmers to make changes...
0:16:39 > 0:16:42..like fencing to keep animals out of rivers...
0:16:42 > 0:16:44..less livestock to encourage vegetation growth...
0:16:44 > 0:16:49..and helping to find grants to pay for the work.
0:16:49 > 0:16:54We've taken about 500 sheep off, cut the cattle back well over 100.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58There's for and against.
0:16:58 > 0:17:03He was more keen on the project than what I was.
0:17:03 > 0:17:08It was a change to me. I thought I was getting too old for change.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10But I think it's working.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12It seems to be working well.
0:17:12 > 0:17:17There's just two fells maybe need a few more sheep on...
0:17:17 > 0:17:20..because it's getting a lot of over-grazing.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25It's getting a bit too thick for all the sheep to graze.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28It may need burning or cutting or something...
0:17:28 > 0:17:32..but United Utilities will advise on that.
0:17:32 > 0:17:37United Utilities are trying to push the project in other areas.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41But there have been discussions on introducing the project...
0:17:42 > 0:17:45..on land they don't own, including Lake Vyrnwy.
0:17:45 > 0:17:50In the Forest of Bowland the company says it's had a positive effect...
0:17:50 > 0:17:54..on the land and the community because of the jobs it's created.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57We've got a team of seven.
0:17:57 > 0:18:01If someone applies for those jobs we give them due consideration.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05A lot of employment comes in from the work we do in the area.
0:18:05 > 0:18:10A huge estate like this needs a lot of repair and maintenance.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13The first phase was over £10 million...
0:18:13 > 0:18:16..so that's a lot of employment.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19But there's no doubt what the company's incentive is.
0:18:19 > 0:18:23There's a benefit to our customers.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27If we can get cleaner water into the treatment works...
0:18:27 > 0:18:30..we can take out levels of colour.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33We don't have to use as many chemicals.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36There's a host of reasons related to water treatment.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40It's an investment, but the money to buy the lease at Vyrnwy...
0:18:41 > 0:18:46..is nothing to such a big company.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46The company is worth £4 billion.
0:18:46 > 0:18:52This isn't enough money to give five minutes' thought to.
0:18:52 > 0:18:58They're involved in transaction worth hundreds of millions...
0:18:58 > 0:19:03..so it's not big business to them but it's important...
0:19:03 > 0:19:07..to local people because their future's at stake.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14But questions that have been raised for decades...
0:19:15 > 0:19:18..have resurfaced in the case of Lake Vyrnwy.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22Local people are concerned about secrecy, a lack of democracy...
0:19:22 > 0:19:26..and the fact water is taking precedent over the community.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30This is who local people support.
0:19:30 > 0:19:33A businessman who promised to invest.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36Because of an agreement he signed with Severn Trent...
0:19:36 > 0:19:40..he can't discuss the details of his offer for six years...
0:19:41 > 0:19:43..but he can express an opinion.
0:19:44 > 0:19:49I suspect it's easier for them to deal with a FTSE-100 company.
0:19:49 > 0:19:53A similar company to theirs.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56There are many conspiracy theories out there...
0:19:56 > 0:20:01..but I'm sure one water company deals with another.
0:20:02 > 0:20:07I don't really know what their motives were.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10They held us on for 12 months.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13We couldn't hold money back to invest.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16We didn't lend any money from the bank.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20It was all equity and that was for 12 months.
0:20:20 > 0:20:26I'm a bit peeved that they gave it to United Utilities in the end.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33But he's more concerned about what it means to a country...
0:20:33 > 0:20:38..with many reservoirs and a climate that makes it ideal...
0:20:38 > 0:20:40..for collecting such an important resource.
0:20:41 > 0:20:47The lake could become a reservoir to provide water for England.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52The water companies don't pay tax on the water they get from Wales.
0:20:52 > 0:20:57It's the only resource we have. We don't have oil or gas.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00We need to be cleverer in what we're doing.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04I think the water boards have a duty...
0:21:04 > 0:21:07..to give something back to the communities...
0:21:07 > 0:21:11..not just turning it into a nature reserve.
0:21:11 > 0:21:16You're a businessman and you know that businesses have to make money.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19They must look after shareholders...
0:21:19 > 0:21:23..so the company has a duty to do that.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27You talk about the community, but business is business.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29I don't blame them.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32Severn Trent and United Utilities need to make a profit.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36But are we in Wales going to let that happen?
0:21:39 > 0:21:42It's an emotional argument that has caused tension in the past...
0:21:42 > 0:21:46..most famously when Cwm Celyn was flooded in the '60s.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Securing a stronger voice for Wales will be discussed again...
0:21:50 > 0:21:54..when the British Government publishes a White Paper...
0:21:54 > 0:21:56..on water as a future resource.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01An Assembly committee wants to investigate the sale of the lease...
0:22:01 > 0:22:07..because they don't have a say - the power lies in London.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11The chairman was among the protestors...
0:22:11 > 0:22:15..on the opening day of the Cwm Celyn dam in 1965.
0:22:16 > 0:22:20There's an important history here and we mustn't forget it...
0:22:20 > 0:22:24..but we have to deal with it in the 21st Century...
0:22:24 > 0:22:31..when the demand for and the value of water is globally acknowledged.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33We need to make it sustainable.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37We have to look at it as a national resource...
0:22:37 > 0:22:42..which we can share at a fair price.
0:22:42 > 0:22:47Following the committee report and the White Paper...
0:22:47 > 0:22:51..I hope we can have a public debate on this issue...
0:22:52 > 0:22:56..to see what we can do with the powers we have...
0:22:56 > 0:22:58..and what further powers we might need.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01But the people of Vyrnwy are cautious.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04History has left its mark.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07That's it for another week.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Taro 9 will be back at the same time next week.
0:23:12 > 0:23:13Good night.