0:00:00 > 0:00:00Subtitles
0:00:00 > 0:00:04A hosepipe ban is in force in the south and south-east of England...
0:00:04 > 0:00:09..because of fears brought on by the worst drought in decades.
0:00:09 > 0:00:13We can't do anything about it. All we can do is hope for rain.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16As reservoirs in Wales are relatively full...
0:00:16 > 0:00:20..some are calling for plans to transfer water to drought areas...
0:00:21 > 0:00:22..over the border.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25But these plans face opposition.
0:00:25 > 0:00:30With Tryweryn as a backdrop, some question whether to charge for water.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33It's Welsh water. Pay for it.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35This business of England and Wales...
0:00:35 > 0:00:40..people need to remember that we're part of England since 1536.
0:00:40 > 0:00:45Tonight on Taro 9, we look at transfer of Welsh water to England.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Is there a price to pay?
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Subtitles
0:01:18 > 0:01:21Berkshire in south-east England.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24A county which, like many neighboringregions...
0:01:24 > 0:01:28..has been experiencing drought since February.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32The last two years have been unusually dry...
0:01:32 > 0:01:37..and groundwater is approaching its lowest ever levels.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44One man feeling the affects is Derek Davies.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48Born in Pembrokeshire, he's been farming near Reading for 20 years.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53With over 300 dairy cows, water is essential to his business.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57If I didn't have enough water...
0:01:57 > 0:02:00..I wouldn't be able to keep the place clean...
0:02:00 > 0:02:04..and as a result I'd probably lose my milk contract.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07If I lost that, the cows would have to go.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11It just wouldn't be worth it. That's the business.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14He was so concerned about supplying the farm with water...
0:02:15 > 0:02:18..that he constructed a borehole several years ago.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22He also grows wheat and maize.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25The affects of the drought are clear to see.
0:02:26 > 0:02:31You can see that we've got a lot of gaps between the plants.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36This should almost look like pasture land for grazing.
0:02:36 > 0:02:41As you can see, it's so dry that the ground isn't full of plants.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46We are desperate for rain. Lots of farmers are worried about it.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49With a brother farming in Crymych...
0:02:49 > 0:02:52..the difference between the two areas is apparent.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58I was walking my brother's land. I couldn't believe the difference.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01All we've got here is dust to work with...
0:03:02 > 0:03:05..whereas my brother couldn't see the soil for plants.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09Two and a half hours down the road makes all the difference.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12The next few months will be challenging for the farm.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17I don't know how much I'm going to grow.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20Will I grow enough to feed the cows?
0:03:20 > 0:03:23So I'll have buy feed and that's a concern...
0:03:24 > 0:03:27..because I don't know how much to buy or spend.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33The worry isn't confined to Berkshire.
0:03:33 > 0:03:38Gwyn Jones has farmed in Sussex for 30 years.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41He is accustomed to water saving measures...
0:03:41 > 0:03:46..and has constructed a lagoon to store any rainwater that falls.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49That's about half because as you see...
0:03:49 > 0:03:52..it gets a lot bigger as it fills up.
0:03:52 > 0:03:53This is about half full...
0:03:54 > 0:03:58..and it would normally cover the island by now.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02As you can see, the soil in Sussex is extremely dry.
0:04:02 > 0:04:03It's another sunny day...
0:04:04 > 0:04:08..with no sign that the situation is about to improve.
0:04:08 > 0:04:14Last year saw just 40% of the average rainfall for the region.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17The Met office says the year ending last October...
0:04:17 > 0:04:23..was one of the driest since the extreme drought back in 1976.
0:04:23 > 0:04:28This is all causing serious problems for farmers like Gwyn Jones.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31He has just planted 500 acres of maize.
0:04:31 > 0:04:36If the crop fails, the business faces losses of at least £150,000.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41Even if it does grow to the extent that we get half...
0:04:42 > 0:04:46..the tonnage we'd expect, that would instantly double its price...
0:04:46 > 0:04:52..for the cattle and that wouldn't work out well.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56And if it was drier than that, the crop would fail.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58That would be very serious.
0:04:59 > 0:05:01One of the major local concerns...
0:05:02 > 0:05:04..is the impact drought has...
0:05:04 > 0:05:06..on growing vegetables for supermarkets...
0:05:06 > 0:05:09..and the conditions that apply.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11If they've got a supermarket contract...
0:05:12 > 0:05:14..if they fail to grow the crop...
0:05:14 > 0:05:18..they frequently have to pay to send crop in its place.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21They then have to shoulder those losses...
0:05:21 > 0:05:23..and the costs mount up quickly.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27On Thursday, a hosepipe ban came into force...
0:05:27 > 0:05:31..across large parts of south and south-east England...
0:05:32 > 0:05:34..and affecting 20 million people.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38It means an end to hosepipe use for gardening and leisure.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43The drought is a consequence of two dry winters.
0:05:43 > 0:05:45Its impact on reservoirs is evident.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48The water here at Ardingly reservoir in Sussex...
0:05:49 > 0:05:53..is at half its average level for this time of year.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56This is the scene you'd expect to see around July.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58It's a different story in Wales.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Reservoirs there are practically full.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Mayor of London Boris Johnson has suggested...
0:06:03 > 0:06:06..that water be transferred from Wales to England...
0:06:06 > 0:06:09..to help prevent situations like this.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Many others agree with him.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19John Elfed Jones was a prominent figure in the water industry.
0:06:19 > 0:06:24He was chair and chief executive of Welsh Water for over 10 years.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27He says transferring water should be seriously considered...
0:06:27 > 0:06:31..as other options such as the desalination of seawater cost more.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33It isn't easy with water...
0:06:34 > 0:06:38..but water should be directed to the areas that need it.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Yes, there is a cost.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43But who is...
0:06:44 > 0:06:50Is our weather going to change so much in the next 50 years...
0:06:50 > 0:06:53..that residents will turn round and say...
0:06:53 > 0:06:57"Why on earth didn't they spend the money back then...
0:06:57 > 0:06:59"..to set up the arrangement?"
0:07:00 > 0:07:03I think it's about time we considered doing so.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06A lack of urgency and a lack of vision...
0:07:06 > 0:07:09..is all-too-often what has led to these difficulties.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14But he adds that under any new arrangement...
0:07:14 > 0:07:19..Wales must be paid for the water so there is potential for profit.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22What is fairness in this situation?
0:07:22 > 0:07:25Is it fair that Wales doesn't profit a penny...
0:07:25 > 0:07:30..from water it exports to England?
0:07:30 > 0:07:33That isn't fair at all.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37There are four water companies that operate in Wales.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41Welsh Water is the largest, supplying 1.2 million homes.
0:07:41 > 0:07:47Severn Trent has over 27, 000 customers here.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49They are also responsible for the Midlands...
0:07:49 > 0:07:52..with water from the Elan Valley supplying Birmingham.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55Dee Valley Water supplies the north-east...
0:07:55 > 0:07:59..in areas such as Wrexham and Chester.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03And even though United Utilities doesn't supply customers in Wales...
0:08:03 > 0:08:06..Laky Vyrnwy and the river Dee supply their customers...
0:08:06 > 0:08:08..in Liverpool and Manchester.
0:08:12 > 0:08:16Wales is not paid for the water used by United Utilities...
0:08:17 > 0:08:21..apart from a fee that's paid to the Environment Agency...
0:08:21 > 0:08:22..for removal of water.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27Welsh Water owns the reservoirs that supply Birmingham.
0:08:27 > 0:08:32Severn Trent simply cover the cost of transporting the water.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36The terms date back to the '80s, before the industry was privatized.
0:08:36 > 0:08:41John Elfed Jones thinks it's about time we made a profit from water.
0:08:41 > 0:08:46It should go to a water company so that people living in Wales...
0:08:46 > 0:08:48..and industries that operate in Wales...
0:08:49 > 0:08:54..can profit from a reduction in their costs.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58That in turn, of course...
0:08:58 > 0:09:03..would mean that Wales could attract more industries...
0:09:03 > 0:09:08..that depend on water to come and set up in Wales.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16One event casts a shadow...
0:09:16 > 0:09:19..over mention of supplying Welsh water to England.
0:09:19 > 0:09:24In 1965, the village of Capel Celyn in Tryweryn...
0:09:24 > 0:09:28..was drowned to make a reservoir to supply Liverpool...
0:09:28 > 0:09:31..despite opposition from local people and most Welsh MPs.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36In 2005, the city of Liverpool issued an apology.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40More than anything I remember the discussions back at home...
0:09:40 > 0:09:45..between my mother and father and the local people.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48They couldn't believe such a thing was happening.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53I don't think my father's generation ever recovered from it.
0:09:53 > 0:09:56As the old soldiers say, "They couldn't forget."
0:09:56 > 0:09:58It stayed with them.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01Rhodri Gwynlliw Jones lived in Capel Celyn...
0:10:01 > 0:10:05..and was an eight-year-old pupil when the drowning occurred.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09He believed the reason was to allow Liverpool to sell the water...
0:10:10 > 0:10:12..without having to pay Wales a penny.
0:10:13 > 0:10:17It was all to do with profit.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20That's why they built the dam.
0:10:20 > 0:10:25It had nothing to do with the people of Liverpool needing water.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29It was solely driven by profit.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32Eurgain Prysor was another resident of Capel Celyn.
0:10:32 > 0:10:37She was the youngest protester to go to Liverpool against the decision.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40I was three years old at the time.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43It was a real adventure for a three-year-old child.
0:10:43 > 0:10:47Rotten tomatoes were thrown at us when we reached Liverpool.
0:10:48 > 0:10:54Even though years have gone by, the area is still hurting.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00Families were scattered. The community disappeared.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02Capel Celyn had no community after that.
0:11:03 > 0:11:07Celyn residents paid a high price for it in the first place.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12I think they made profit from us, and continue to do so.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15Llyn Celyn supplies the river Dee.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19Water is released to the river when necessary.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23Eurgain Prysor feels as though being paid for the water...
0:11:23 > 0:11:28..would be an acknowledgement of the injury done to the area.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30If we were paid...
0:11:30 > 0:11:33..in the economic situation we're in now...
0:11:33 > 0:11:36..it would reduce domestic bills here in Wales.
0:11:36 > 0:11:42Rhodri Jones doesn't want to see other areas drowned under new plans.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47It is very unlikely another such event would happen nowadays.
0:11:47 > 0:11:51He says in future Wales should make a profit from selling water.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53That's what we got in Celyn.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57We want the water, we're taking your homes.
0:11:57 > 0:12:03We don't care what you say, we're sending you away like refugees.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07No. Tough. Tough.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12It's Welsh water. Tough. If they want it, they should pay.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16But according to some, there's a different price to pay.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19In 2006, an Environment Agency report concluded...
0:12:19 > 0:12:22..that it was too expensive, environmentally and financially...
0:12:22 > 0:12:24..to move the water.
0:12:25 > 0:12:30Water is heavy, so it takes a lot of energy to move this water.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33We have to think about carbon dioxide emissions...
0:12:33 > 0:12:36..which could affect climate change.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38During the last two years...
0:12:38 > 0:12:42..some areas of Wales have come close to experiencing a drought.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47The water rises quickly, and it can drop quickly.
0:12:47 > 0:12:50That's why we have these reservoirs around Wales...
0:12:50 > 0:12:54..so that we can use that water when it's dry.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58There's this idea that we have plenty of water in Wales.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01In the future, when climate change hits us...
0:13:01 > 0:13:03..we'll have less water.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06We'll have to consider how much water we use...
0:13:07 > 0:13:10..before thinking about moving it to other areas.
0:13:10 > 0:13:14The School of Engineering at Cardiff University.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18Professor Roger Falconer is a lecturer here.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21He recently chaired an international conference in Spain...
0:13:21 > 0:13:23..on water management.
0:13:23 > 0:13:27He says a scheme to move water from Wales to North East England...
0:13:28 > 0:13:29..should be seriously considered.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32Climate change is having a massive impact.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35These projects take a long time to implement...
0:13:36 > 0:13:40..and we need to be careful that we don't keep putting off...
0:13:40 > 0:13:46..decisions that need to be made now with a 10 year lead time.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48Two main engineering schemes are possible...
0:13:49 > 0:13:52..to secure a significant supply of water.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55One would be to build a new reservoir near Tewkesbury.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58The water would be released into the Severn...
0:13:58 > 0:14:02..and pumped into the Thames through new pipes...
0:14:02 > 0:14:05..or by reopening old canals.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09The other option would be to double the size...
0:14:09 > 0:14:11..of the Craig Goch reservoir.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15The water would be moved, according to demand, into the Severn...
0:14:15 > 0:14:18..and then transferred to the Thames.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23The raising of Craig Goch Dam, which is a dam of about 70 metres.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27It's not a large dam by international standards...
0:14:27 > 0:14:31..so it would not be a major civil engineering project.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35After the break, we'll hear from the civil engineer...
0:14:35 > 0:14:38..who has spent years developing the plans.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42We'll also travel to another area which is facing a drought.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56London. Home to almost eight million people.
0:14:56 > 0:15:01A city, like many other areas in the south of England...
0:15:01 > 0:15:03..facing a drought.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06The population is expected to grow quickly...
0:15:06 > 0:15:09..as is the demand for water.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12Some have suggested moving water from Wales here...
0:15:12 > 0:15:16..and there are calls to charge people for it.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18But not everyone agrees.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21Dr Carol Bell is a gas and oil expert.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25Don't forget how much money flows from here in Westminster...
0:15:26 > 0:15:28..down to Wales in the other direction.
0:15:28 > 0:15:33The important thing for us is to have a share of the jobs...
0:15:33 > 0:15:37..that would be created through the building of these resources.
0:15:37 > 0:15:42That is the way to receive help during these difficult times.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45And the water companies, like Welsh Water...
0:15:45 > 0:15:50..will naturally make a fair profit from this process.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55She doesn't think water should be considered in the same way as oil.
0:15:56 > 0:16:01I think we have a system that works pretty well already.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05This business of being between Wales and England...
0:16:05 > 0:16:07..people have to remember their history.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10We've been a part of England since 1536.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14It's unreasonable to talk like this about water...
0:16:14 > 0:16:16..which is a human right, unlike oil...
0:16:17 > 0:16:20..which is something people can do without.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24But what do the people of London think?
0:16:24 > 0:16:29Do they think Wales should be paid for the water?
0:16:29 > 0:16:32Definitely. Yes. I've got a flat in Wales!
0:16:34 > 0:16:35I don't think so.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39We're a United Kingdom, and all water should be shared.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41If there's a drought...
0:16:41 > 0:16:45..and we can move it to areas where there's less, then great.
0:16:45 > 0:16:49To an extent. As long as it's not excessive.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52Even if it means higher water bills for you?
0:16:52 > 0:16:55I guess it's either that or nothing.
0:16:55 > 0:17:00We'd probably charge Wales if it was the other way round.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02It's probably fair.
0:17:02 > 0:17:07The MP for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy, Elfyn Llwyd, wants to see...
0:17:07 > 0:17:11..a fair price for the water, and says the Welsh Government...
0:17:12 > 0:17:15..should receive the money, not the water companies.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19If new sources of water were created, the Welsh Government...
0:17:20 > 0:17:25..should pay, along with the recipient of the water...
0:17:25 > 0:17:30..to build the infrastructure to create that resource...
0:17:30 > 0:17:36..and should be paid back for the work..
0:17:36 > 0:17:41..and for the water that crosses the border.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44The industry is regulated.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48In Wales and England, Ofwat ensures that prices are fair...
0:17:48 > 0:17:51..and that the profit is controlled.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54The Government also has a role.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57Every five years, water companies in Wales and England...
0:17:58 > 0:18:01..have to produce a water resources management plan.
0:18:01 > 0:18:05It reveals how they would respond to the demand for water...
0:18:05 > 0:18:07..in the next 25 years.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10They also have to produce a drought plan.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13In England, the UK Government approves that plan.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17In Wales, it's the Government in Cardiff Bay.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21The Westminster Government approves the plans of Severn Trent...
0:18:21 > 0:18:25..and United Utilities.
0:18:25 > 0:18:30It's not clear whether Cardiff or London would have the final say...
0:18:30 > 0:18:33..about water that crosses the border.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38The Government of Wales Act states that the Secretary of State...
0:18:38 > 0:18:41..can intervene if English water supplies are seriously affected.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45I raised it in 2005 or 2006 because it was suspicious...
0:18:46 > 0:18:48..and was told it was academic.
0:18:48 > 0:18:50But I think in this case...
0:18:50 > 0:18:53..the Welsh Government should make the final decision.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56It's an invaluable resource for us in Wales...
0:18:56 > 0:19:00..and we should be able to develop it sensibly and sustainably...
0:19:00 > 0:19:02..for the people of Wales.
0:19:02 > 0:19:07The Welsh Government says there has to be evidence...
0:19:07 > 0:19:11..that supplies are being affected before Westminster can intervene.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15The starting point of a discussion about charging for Welsh water...
0:19:15 > 0:19:18..is to secure a value for the resource...
0:19:18 > 0:19:21..and to protect the environment.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23But which plan is the most likely?
0:19:23 > 0:19:28John Lawson is the former chair of the Civil Engineers Water Panel.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30For years, he's investigated the possibility...
0:19:31 > 0:19:34..of increasing the size of the Craig Goch reservoir.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38He says that scheme remains the front-runner.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41From the work I've done in the past...
0:19:42 > 0:19:45..the studies always lead back to the raising of Craig Goch...
0:19:46 > 0:19:50..if you need to have a big resource for southern England.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53Although there need to be additional studies...
0:19:54 > 0:19:56..until further evidence is produced to demonstrate...
0:19:56 > 0:20:01..that actually is not possible, I think that would be the best way.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03But the studies need to be done.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05Companies like Thames Water...
0:20:05 > 0:20:10..have considered and rejected the plan in the past.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13It's more appealing for companies to build reservoirs...
0:20:13 > 0:20:17..within their own borders, according to John Lawson.
0:20:17 > 0:20:22Water companies like to own their own capital assets.
0:20:22 > 0:20:26The amount of profit they're allowed to make by the regulator..
0:20:26 > 0:20:30..is dependent on the value of the assets they own.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33So they prefer to do it themselves...
0:20:33 > 0:20:36..but that isn't necessarily the best thing.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39Welsh Water owns the Craig Goch reservoir.
0:20:39 > 0:20:44It says increasing the size of the reservoir isn't a solution...
0:20:44 > 0:20:47..based on a report in 2006.
0:20:47 > 0:20:51At the time, that cost was five times the cost of desalination...
0:20:52 > 0:20:55..taking salt out of sea water to make it drinkable.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58But now, energy costs have increased so much...
0:20:58 > 0:21:01..and that cost would probably...
0:21:01 > 0:21:04..be between five and ten times as much.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07It might be possible technically...
0:21:07 > 0:21:12..but it's not practical financially or environmentally.
0:21:13 > 0:21:20The company isn't in favour of moving the water either.
0:21:20 > 0:21:24The most important thing to us is to secure a water supply...
0:21:24 > 0:21:27..for our customers here in Wales.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31At the moment, it's not possible to move water from Wales...
0:21:31 > 0:21:37..to the south east because the resources aren't available.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39It would be too expensive...
0:21:39 > 0:21:41..and it wouldn't be practical environmentally.
0:21:41 > 0:21:46If it was possible financially and environmentally...
0:21:46 > 0:21:50..we would look at it, but at the moment, it's not.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52Severn Trent disagrees.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55The company says water companies can work together...
0:21:56 > 0:21:58..that customers can also benefit...
0:21:58 > 0:22:01..and that there are several options.
0:22:01 > 0:22:06There are a range of ideas around raising the dams in Wales...
0:22:06 > 0:22:08..in Elan and Craig Goch.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12Dwr Cymru are also looking at some of those ideas.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14Nothing is ruled out, and we're identifying options.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17In principle, there's no reason why Dwr Cymru...
0:22:18 > 0:22:21..couldn't raise those dams, and sell that water.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25Last year, Severn Trent paid over £6 million to Welsh Water...
0:22:26 > 0:22:28..for water from the Elan Valley.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30It didn't want to comment...
0:22:30 > 0:22:35..on any change in the arrangement of paying for the water.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38There's an arrangement between Severn Trent and Dwr Cymru.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42We take water from Elan into Birmingham and we pay for that...
0:22:42 > 0:22:47..but we can't comment on how they might wish to change that.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51We contacted English water companies and asked them...
0:22:51 > 0:22:56..for their opinion on paying to move water from Wales to England.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59Most of them refused to answer directly...
0:22:59 > 0:23:01..but they did offer other options.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05They agreed it would be costly environmentally and financially...
0:23:05 > 0:23:09..to move water from Wales to the south of England.
0:23:09 > 0:23:13There's no sign of things improving in the near future.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16Farmers remain concerned.
0:23:16 > 0:23:21You can carry losses for a while but if the worst happens...
0:23:21 > 0:23:25..and we have another dry year next year, it would be bad.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28So far, there have been no discussions...
0:23:29 > 0:23:33..between the Westminster and Welsh governments about any new plan.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37But some say those discussions need to begin.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42I think the Welsh Government should sit down with people...
0:23:42 > 0:23:48..in Westminster to find the money to build these resources.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51There are ways of raising the money...
0:23:51 > 0:23:54..and they should start talking as soon as possible.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57There's a price to pay for it...
0:23:58 > 0:24:00..there's a structure to be developed...
0:24:00 > 0:24:05..and there's a price on water, so let it happen.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29S4C subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:24:29 > 0:24:29.