:00:39. > :00:43.Good morning, and welcome, well, Good morning, and welcome, well,
:00:43. > :00:49.here it is, the very last edition of the News of the World, which has
:00:49. > :00:52.closed after 168 years. Its editor had told its journalists, "It's not
:00:52. > :00:56.where we want to be and it's not where we deserve to be",
:00:56. > :01:01.end of the day, where journalists always deserve to be, down the pub.
:01:01. > :01:04.They may have gone, but tabloid journalism certainly hasn't. By the
:01:04. > :01:10.way, the News of the World isn't any longer Britain's best selling
:01:10. > :01:15.newspaper, that's now The Sun, still very much in business, so gleeful,
:01:15. > :01:18.please note. Joining me today, two journalists who know the inner
:01:18. > :01:22.workings of the newspaper world pretty well, Fraser Nelson is or
:01:22. > :01:26.a columnist for the News of the World, he also edits the Spectator,
:01:26. > :01:30.and Amanda Platell, former Fleet Street executive and now columnist
:01:30. > :01:34.for the Daily Mail. A heck of a week for politics, journalism and
:01:34. > :01:40.police and it's a lot bigger than just the death of the News of the
:01:40. > :01:45.World, which had titivated so many Sunday more thankings. We're going
:01:45. > :01:50.to see a new many of press regulation, and perhaps arrests and
:01:50. > :01:54.then the question of the Murdoch takeover of BSkyB. One man who has
:01:54. > :01:59.led the attack on this, is the Labour leader Ed Miliband, ending
:01:59. > :02:02.years of Labour attempts to cosy up to the Murdoch empire. Big mistake
:02:02. > :02:06.say quite a few columnists this morning. Does he realise the
:02:06. > :02:10.he is taking? He's with me morning so we will find out and
:02:10. > :02:15.about his initiative in the Commons this week to delay the takeover.
:02:15. > :02:19.the Lib Dems, there is an element of "we told you so", what do they
:02:19. > :02:23.about the Prime Minister's judgment of hiring Andy Coulson as his
:02:23. > :02:26.communications chief? We'll find out from Chris Huhne. We're not
:02:26. > :02:31.going to talk about the media however, as Energy Secretary, what
:02:31. > :02:35.is Mr Huhne going to do about bills going up by 18%, pushing more
:02:35. > :02:38.households into fuel poverty? this morning, the journalist Rageh
:02:38. > :02:44.Omaar, who became a household name reporting for the BBC during
:02:44. > :02:49.Iraq war, is presenting a series about Islam and the Prophet
:02:49. > :02:52.Mohammed, he's here to discuss that and the controversy it has already
:02:53. > :02:56.caused, and he will also talk about the terrible drought and hunger
:02:56. > :03:02.East Africa. First the news. Good morning, the last edition
:03:02. > :03:06.the News of the World has rolled the presses, ending 168 years of
:03:06. > :03:08.publication. There are emotional scenes as staff left their offices
:03:08. > :03:11.after putting the paper together for the last time. In other
:03:11. > :03:16.developments, the family of Milly Dowler will meet the Prime Minister
:03:16. > :03:20.tomorrow, and the senior police officer who carried out a review of
:03:21. > :03:27.the phone hacking case in 2009, and said there was no new evidence, has
:03:27. > :03:31.apologised. Andy Moore's report contains flash photography. Led by
:03:31. > :03:35.their editor, the staff of the World walked out of work for
:03:35. > :03:39.the last time, they put together special farewell edition of the
:03:39. > :03:47.paper, one they said they could be proud of. This is not
:03:47. > :03:52.wanted to be, and it's not where we deserve to be. The final tribute to
:03:52. > :03:59.seven and a half million readers. This is for you. And for the staff.
:03:59. > :04:03.Thank you. The print run was doubled to 5 million, all the proceeds
:04:03. > :04:07.go to charity. But even as the paper was rolling off the presses,
:04:07. > :04:11.were new developments in the story. Tomorrow, Milly Dowler's family and
:04:11. > :04:16.other hacking victims will meet David Cameron and Deputy Prime
:04:16. > :04:18.Minister Nick Clegg, they will also meet the Labour leader, Ed Miliband.
:04:18. > :04:23.The police officer who carried out a review of the phone hacking
:04:23. > :04:27.years ago, and said there was no new evidence, has apologised.
:04:27. > :04:36.to the targeting of Milly Dowler's phone, Assistant Commissioner John
:04:36. > :04:39.Yates told the Sunday Telegraph: Rupert Murdoch is flying into
:04:39. > :04:43.Britain today, on what's said to a scheduled visit. Before leaving
:04:43. > :04:48.the States, he was asked Rebekah Brooks, the woman who
:04:48. > :04:56.his operation in the UK. So I was wondering if Ms Brooks still has
:04:56. > :05:02.your full support? Total. It's Fleet Street tradition for a long
:05:02. > :05:08.serving retiring worker to be banged out by his colleagues. In this case,
:05:08. > :05:13.the News of the World editor did the honours for all of his staff. At
:05:13. > :05:16.least six police officers have been injured in rioting in County Antrim,
:05:16. > :05:21.Loyalists attacked the police in several towns near Belfast, it's
:05:22. > :05:26.thought the trouble started because of a dispute about flags. This is
:05:26. > :05:30.not a town which is used to trouble. But last night, the rioting in
:05:30. > :05:36.Ballyclare was sustained and serious. For several hours, a crowd
:05:36. > :05:40.of up to 100 Loyalists threw petrol bombs and other missiles at police,
:05:40. > :05:44.it's believed six officers were hurt, five of them were injured when
:05:44. > :05:47.rioters crashed a hijacked bus into a police Land Rover, they used water
:05:47. > :05:52.cannon to try to stop the trouble. Tension had been building in the
:05:52. > :05:58.town yesterday. Loyalists staged sit down protest and blocked a road,
:05:58. > :06:05.claiming police had removed union flags. Unionist politicians say
:06:05. > :06:09.local people had agreed police could take down paramilitary flags, but it
:06:09. > :06:12.not expect other flags to be taken down too. People will be worried
:06:12. > :06:16.about this flesh outbreak of violence. Campaigners are calling on
:06:16. > :06:24.the Ministry of Defence to clear two pilots of any blame for the crash
:06:24. > :06:27.which killed all 29 people on board a RAF Chinook helicopter in 1994.
:06:27. > :06:30.The pilots were accused of gross negligence, but an independent
:06:30. > :06:34.report, due to be published in the next few days, is expected to say
:06:34. > :06:40.the men shouldn't have been blamed for causing the accident, which
:06:40. > :06:45.happened in bad weather, on the Mull of Kintyre. British aid agencies
:06:45. > :06:48.the public is responding with overwhelming generosity to a
:06:48. > :06:54.fundraising appeal launched to millions of people affected by
:06:54. > :06:57.drought in East Africa. have been donated so far, but the
:06:57. > :07:01.Disasters Emergency Committee warns that without international
:07:01. > :07:03.intervention, the situation in East Africa could turn into a
:07:03. > :07:07.catastrophe. The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are continuing their
:07:07. > :07:11.to California, they spent the evening at a black tie reception in
:07:11. > :07:17.Los Angeles, to promote up and coming British actors and directors.
:07:17. > :07:22.The event was organised by BAFTA, and was attended by Hollywood stars
:07:22. > :07:27.including Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise. Guests paid
:07:27. > :07:31.to be there. That's all from me for now. I'll be back just before
:07:31. > :07:36.with the headlines. Thanks Louise. To the front pages,
:07:36. > :07:39.you have seen one of them already, here are some more. The Sunday Times
:07:39. > :07:45.says 12 people face jail over hacking and a picture of the Duchess
:07:45. > :07:49.of Cambridge, Kate Middleton, as was, there. One of two women
:07:49. > :07:55.dominating the front pages, the other being Rebekah Brooks. The
:07:55. > :07:59.Observer: Paddy Ashdown, the latest of the people coming forward saying
:07:59. > :08:03.he warned David Cameron about that. The Independent on Sunday, war of
:08:03. > :08:07.the world, about the future of News International, the other woman
:08:07. > :08:13.dominating the front pages, Rebekah Brooks, there. And the Mail on
:08:13. > :08:18.Sunday, "Blair bid to silence MP who exposed Murdoch". I should say
:08:18. > :08:22.Blair says that's not true. Kate Middleton again. And then Murdoch's
:08:22. > :08:25.troubles only get worse, Scotland on Sunday, a rather odd story, it
:08:25. > :08:32.the Church of England is the Church of England is threatening
:08:32. > :08:37.to pull millions from News Corp the scandal. Many didn't
:08:37. > :08:39.relationships that! Welcome to you both. Fraser, you have been a
:08:39. > :08:44.columnist for a long time on News of the World, so
:08:44. > :08:47.with you, and that final historic edition. I've got the very first
:08:47. > :08:51.issue of the News of the World on my wall at home, it's funny to be
:08:51. > :08:54.holding the very last one here. think they have done it brilliantly,
:08:54. > :08:57.just shown all these incredible front pages which have punctuated
:08:57. > :09:04.British history actually. When you walk into the News of the World,
:09:04. > :09:08.they have got them them all up the wall, and it reminds �you what
:09:08. > :09:12.successful newspaper this is, at its peak it sold 8 million, no one
:09:12. > :09:15.ever done that. When newspapers die, normally they run out of readers or
:09:15. > :09:20.money, this is really quite something else. This has never
:09:20. > :09:24.happened before, that a proprietor has closed a successful newspaper.
:09:24. > :09:28.No, because there is always the view that you can basically cleanse,
:09:28. > :09:32.change editor or ownership, bring them back again. It shows how
:09:32. > :09:37.seriously Rupert Murdoch takes this. He sees it as a threat to
:09:37. > :09:41.empire and he wants to send a message to everybody in Beijing, if
:09:41. > :09:46.you screw up like this, you will the price, but nobody can quite
:09:46. > :09:50.believe the commercial audacity, - He is not a sentimental fellow,
:09:50. > :09:53.is he? Clearly not. But the funny thing is, it's difficult certainly
:09:53. > :09:57.for journalists not to be sentimental about this incredible
:09:57. > :10:01.newspaper and all the good it has done, which is something nobody will
:10:01. > :10:03.listen to at the moment, such are the scale of the sins of the private
:10:03. > :10:07.investigators, and for those journalists who were involved in the
:10:07. > :10:12.paper, this is the great irony, all these bad things were done by the
:10:12. > :10:16.men in raincoats, the PIs of the phone, who would do all sorts
:10:16. > :10:21.of methods. But authorised by people at the top, many of whom are
:10:21. > :10:26.still there, unlike the journalists. That is a huge mistake, for which
:10:26. > :10:29.the newspaper has paid with life. If it's true that there is
:10:29. > :10:32.�100,000 that was going to private investigators every year, as
:10:32. > :10:36.a former newspaper editor and executive, �100 has to go through
:10:36. > :10:39.the books. It has to be seen by executives at some level. Who they
:10:39. > :10:44.are, who knows. But it is incredible, just looking at the
:10:44. > :10:51.front pages, it was quite Colin Myler, the editor who I worked
:10:51. > :10:55.with for 20 years, a fine and honest man, we couldn't find him on the
:10:55. > :11:00.newspaper, he would usually be down at the local Catholic church saying
:11:00. > :11:05.mass, he is so clean, but he has written this lovely obituary for the
:11:05. > :11:10.paper, I guess that's what you call it, he says the advertisement for
:11:10. > :11:14.our first ever edition announced: as the novelty of nations and the
:11:14. > :11:19.wonder of the wormed. That is incredibly - of the world. That is
:11:19. > :11:25.the thing about the paper, so many people who were very influential
:11:25. > :11:30.read it, *. They have reprinted the first page here inside, and it gives
:11:30. > :11:35.the mission statement, which was exactly the same as it is today, a
:11:35. > :11:38.paper which will have enough intellectual calibre to engage the
:11:38. > :11:42.rich because they want to know, by the sheer number it sells
:11:42. > :11:46.the poor, this is the kind of paper they want to be read in Buckingham
:11:46. > :11:52.Palace and down the pub. And it actually was. What I was struck by,
:11:52. > :11:56.going through it, was that - there's not a great deal of cont rigs about
:11:56. > :11:59.the recent events - contrition about the recent events, of course
:11:59. > :12:03.written for their readers, but it seemed in a sense it was
:12:03. > :12:08.Rupert Murdoch, saying look we've achieved, look what
:12:08. > :12:12.killing off, remember us. will be. Just think how high the
:12:12. > :12:15.emission * motions were - emotions were running. These were journalists
:12:15. > :12:18.with nothing to do with the that were committed. They spent the
:12:18. > :12:21.last five years making sure everything was right and they pay
:12:21. > :12:27.the price. You can imagine the emotions as they were putting the
:12:27. > :12:31.paper together. Lots of interesting coverage elsewhere. You have to
:12:31. > :12:34.give the star columnist, normally you only get to write about the
:12:34. > :12:38.death of a father or mother in a column, this is the first time I
:12:38. > :12:46.have read about the death of a newspaper. She puts it well, and
:12:46. > :12:51.says: this red top Monday Lord Goldsmith has been a - monolith has,
:12:51. > :12:56.no corporation has ever been able to ignore it. That's true. That's why
:12:56. > :13:01.despite the the terrible things happened and the ghastly hacking, it
:13:01. > :13:06.is a sad day for - I said, you that journalists are sentimental
:13:06. > :13:11.so journalists are, but also it's a ruthless trade and you can pick that
:13:11. > :13:15.up from some other front pages. This is incredible. Because
:13:15. > :13:19.suddenly, there are 7 million readers out there who some of them
:13:19. > :13:26.will want another Sunday what does the Daily Star do? Wills
:13:26. > :13:31.to be Beckham's godfather! and Kate, we want three children,
:13:31. > :13:36.private interview. All of them, Cheryl Cole on the front. Sunday
:13:36. > :13:41.Mirror, big Harry Potter promotion, they're doing the classic red top,
:13:41. > :13:46.celebrity, bit of offer to get the readers in.
:13:46. > :13:50.million readers up tore grabs, where will they go? In America, when
:13:50. > :13:53.shut newspapers, the readers have gone. Our industry is in
:13:53. > :13:58.contraction, it could be this is simply accelerating this one way
:13:58. > :14:02.reversal. You have chosen Andrew Gilligan in the Sunday Telegraph.
:14:02. > :14:07.Yes, the News of the World, for its faults, was the premier
:14:07. > :14:11.investigative newspaper in Britain. What comes after, is this an
:14:11. > :14:15.opportunity for the politicians to make a power grab, to try to muzzle
:14:15. > :14:20.the British press in a way they always wanted to do? The papers have
:14:20. > :14:23.never been more vulnerable. Gilligan makes the point, he is a great
:14:23. > :14:26.investigative journalist, he is saying that this scandal could,
:14:26. > :14:30.terms of simply by empowering the regulatory forces, stop journalists
:14:30. > :14:34.asking awkward questions. A lot of people are worried about that across
:14:34. > :14:39.the trade. Let's turn to the politics of all of this. Amanda, The
:14:39. > :14:44.Observer has an interesting story, Paddy Ashdown. It has indeed.
:14:44. > :14:48.Ashdown among other people has said he actually warned Cameron about the
:14:48. > :14:50.dangers of hiring Andy Coulson, and he rather arrogantly dismissed this,
:14:50. > :14:55.Nick Clegg was also warned and raised it with the Prime Minister
:14:55. > :14:58.and he was just seen off. Cameron was just determined to bring him on
:14:58. > :15:02.board. But you also have this crazy situation at the moment where you
:15:02. > :15:06.have Ed Miliband on later in the show, and of course his own head of
:15:06. > :15:11.communications, Tom Baldwin, there are some very serious allegations
:15:11. > :15:16.about him hacking into a bank account that have to be addressed.
:15:16. > :15:20.This is Michael Ashcroft, the Conservative Party then treasurer?
:15:20. > :15:24.Yes, I was then William Hague's spin doctor so I'm very abreast of this
:15:24. > :15:30.story, and there are serious allegations to answer. So you have
:15:30. > :15:33.Cameron having hired someone also shown to be in charge of something
:15:33. > :15:36.breaking the law, and certainly has questions to answer.
:15:36. > :15:40.This raises the question of whether politicians have become far too
:15:40. > :15:44.close to this one newspaper group. There is no doubt that they
:15:44. > :15:48.slavishly courted, all political parties did, the only reason the Lib
:15:48. > :15:51.Dems didn't is because Murdoch wouldn't be bothered to see them,
:15:51. > :15:56.because they weren't important enough. The other element is the
:15:56. > :15:59.police. The Sunday Telegraph? Yes, they have an interview - an
:15:59. > :16:05.astonishing interview. Yes, John Yates, who investigated
:16:05. > :16:08.first time around. Or didn't investigate! He basically has a
:16:08. > :16:12.mea mea culpa, he says there was a
:16:12. > :16:15.cover-up at News International in 2005/6, he basically blames the
:16:15. > :16:19.media organisation as well as himself, and this gives us a taste
:16:19. > :16:22.of what we're going to be in for in the coming weeks, months or perhaps
:16:22. > :16:26.even years, as there's going to be trials, inquiries, this story
:16:26. > :16:31.going to go away, it will be with us for a hell of a long time,
:16:31. > :16:35.will claim the careers of many more people. Yates here, he basically
:16:35. > :16:40.heed - he did the cash for honours inquiry, he did that pretty well,
:16:40. > :16:44.but this he did appallingly badly. He is admitting that. How could all
:16:44. > :16:48.these huge amounts of hacked e-mails pass his attention?
:16:48. > :16:52.questions for the police. Let's do some other stories, because there
:16:53. > :16:56.a lot else going on in the world. As you were talking about earlier,
:16:56. > :17:02.this terrible drought, it's incredible that we have now the
:17:02. > :17:06.famine and the drought, we have now raised all that money. �6
:17:06. > :17:10.It is absolutely terrible, the pictures here in the Sunday Mirror,
:17:10. > :17:14.you see that picture and you reach for your cheque book. You have a
:17:15. > :17:18.story about another guest coming on later on. Yes, the Mail on Sunday
:17:19. > :17:21.has revealed, they say the police confiscated his son's mobile phone,
:17:21. > :17:26.that's what you do when you investigate, you take the mobile
:17:26. > :17:31.the blackberry, and they found text to him from Chris Huhne
:17:31. > :17:38.basically - his son said, "Please dad come clean", and according
:17:38. > :17:42.the Mail on Sunday, Chris said, "You wouldn't want your mum to end up in
:17:42. > :17:47.prison", the point being if she did take the points, she was as guilty
:17:47. > :17:50.as he was, so that shows pressure piling on. There is a bit
:17:50. > :17:54.of good news at the end of that story, the divorce is in the courts
:17:54. > :17:58.and he is now free to marry again. Who knows. And everyone
:17:58. > :18:02.talking about Harry Potter all week, and mourning the last of the movies,
:18:02. > :18:07.but it is not over, it's just beginning. According to the Sunday
:18:07. > :18:10.Telegraph, that brand alone is now worth �9 billion, just the brand,
:18:10. > :18:17.and they want to turn it into the next Mickey Mouse and have
:18:17. > :18:23.over the world, even on jelly beans. I can hardly wait. And the royals,
:18:23. > :18:28.an incredibly successful tour of Canada, and the pictures here, this
:18:28. > :18:32.is a great example of what great value we get from the monarchy,
:18:32. > :18:36.being a brilliant representative for Britain, Canada is going crazy. It
:18:36. > :18:42.seems that Kate Middleton is becoming a fashion icon, a style
:18:42. > :18:46.icon, every much as bit as Lady Diana, and it's kind of funny, we
:18:46. > :18:51.didn't really expect her to take on that trajectory, but she is.
:18:51. > :18:54.has been incredible, but also William has had a fantastic tour,
:18:54. > :18:58.has been able to get out and play polo and land helicopters and things
:18:58. > :19:01.like that, but even in his walkabouts, there is something of
:19:01. > :19:05.Diana about him. He was talking yesterday with some children
:19:05. > :19:11.lost their mother, about how every day of his life, he mourns his
:19:11. > :19:15.mother and misses her. He has got humanity about him and that Charles
:19:15. > :19:19.was never able to display, really working very well. A final
:19:19. > :19:25.story, very good news, a good news story for Andrew Marr. Yes, we had
:19:25. > :19:30.to get you a nice one. This is this plea to get Botox on the NHS, it's
:19:30. > :19:34.not for cosmetic reasons, but to get rid of worry lines, with the
:19:34. > :19:39.of the world on your shoulders or your brow. I think we have
:19:39. > :19:43.certainly run out of time, thank you both very much indeed. The weather
:19:43. > :19:49.forecast as well seems to be getting stick in the press, people are
:19:49. > :19:53.complaining about gratuitous ad libs, so here is Liam, who will not
:19:53. > :19:57.mention sun cream, barbecues, umbrellas or any sporting events.
:19:57. > :20:01.Can it be done? Good morning to you. The weather
:20:01. > :20:05.will quieten down across the UK over the next couple of days, as high
:20:05. > :20:09.pressure starts to build in, but for now, fairly mixed for the
:20:09. > :20:12.the day, some sunshine but also some showers, some of which could be
:20:12. > :20:16.pretty heavy. So for Wales and Northern Ireland, there
:20:16. > :20:20.will be showers around, could be thundery, particularly into the
:20:20. > :20:24.afternoon, for Scotland the rain turning prolonged for the northern
:20:24. > :20:28.half of the country and localised flooding. Sunshine between the
:20:28. > :20:31.showers, it will feel pleasantly warm, temperatures peaking at 22-23.
:20:31. > :20:35.Through this evening and overnight tonight, for most of us, the
:20:35. > :20:40.will tend to fade away, but some prolonged rain affecting
:20:40. > :20:44.and eastern parts of Scotland, a bit misty elsewhere in sheltered spots,
:20:44. > :20:48.but mild temperatures staying in double figures. For Monday, a fine
:20:48. > :20:52.start, with pleasant spells of sunshine, again some heavy showers
:20:52. > :20:57.developing across most of Scotland on Monday, for the rest of us, apart
:20:57. > :21:01.from the odd shower, staying mainly dry and a bit warmer with lighter
:21:01. > :21:04.winds, temperatures up to 24-5. And for Tuesday into Wednesday, many
:21:04. > :21:10.places dry with good spells of sunshine, just the odd shower
:21:10. > :21:15.and there. Not too bad for the next couple of days. Back to you, Andrew.
:21:15. > :21:20.As you cannot fail to be aware, energy bills are going up by as much
:21:20. > :21:24.as 18% in the latest increase announced by British Gas last week,
:21:24. > :21:28.energy companies say that rising wholesale prices are to blame, but
:21:28. > :21:32.it has also claimed hidden green charges are helping to push up the
:21:32. > :21:36.cost. I am joined by Chris Huhne has been in the papers for all sorts
:21:36. > :21:39.of reasons. Let's start, one of the things that you were involved in in
:21:39. > :21:43.your last job as it were, when you were the home affairs spokesman, was
:21:43. > :21:49.the Andy Coulson business, and you said some extremely robust things
:21:49. > :21:52.about the danger of bringing Coulson into the No 10
:21:52. > :21:54.Can I ask, once you had joined the coalition, whether you raised any of
:21:54. > :21:58.that with the Prime yourself? I certainly raised
:21:58. > :22:01.with Nick, and Nick raised it with the Prime Minister, and it was
:22:01. > :22:04.very clear to us that this was personal appointment of the Prime
:22:04. > :22:08.Minister, it wasn't a government appointment, and therefore we didn't
:22:08. > :22:14.have any standing to object to it, but it was very clear from what
:22:14. > :22:18.had said previously that I think, you know, big reputational risks
:22:18. > :22:21.were being run. So given what you were saying and what Lord Ashdown
:22:21. > :22:24.was saying, and The Guardian, what does it say about the Prime
:22:24. > :22:27.Minister's judgment, do you think? The Prime Minister had said that
:22:27. > :22:32.wanted to give Andy Coulson a second chance, and that's a very
:22:32. > :22:36.commendable thing to do in life, the reality is that there were very
:22:36. > :22:41.serious risks being run there, we knew, with Andy Coulson, anybody in
:22:41. > :22:45.charge of a newspaper needs to know what's going on, and at the very
:22:45. > :22:49.least either Andy Coulson was complicit in criminal acts or
:22:49. > :22:52.alternatively he was a very incompetent editor, by the standards
:22:53. > :22:56.of Fleet Street. Given that, it was a very strange thing presumably,
:22:56. > :23:00.your view, for the Prime Minister to give him that second chance.
:23:00. > :23:06.think the truth is that both Labour and the Conservatives over many
:23:06. > :23:11.years have had an extremely cosy relationship with the Murdoch press,
:23:11. > :23:14.and hiring call son in the first place was seen as a way into getting
:23:14. > :23:18.a relationship with the Murdoch press, and after all, the Murdoch
:23:18. > :23:23.press did back the Conservatives very vigorously during the general
:23:23. > :23:27.election campaign. Did you think there was something seemy, I
:23:27. > :23:32.going to say corrupt, but that's too strong, something sticky and
:23:32. > :23:36.unpleasant about that relationship? I certainly don't think that it is
:23:36. > :23:44.healthy when one particular newspaper propose prior, who happens
:23:44. > :23:47.to be the biggest proprietor in the country, and has a very substantial
:23:48. > :23:52.share of a media organisation, the form of BSkyB, I don't think
:23:53. > :23:57.it's healthy when politicians take that sort of attitude towards him.
:23:57. > :24:00.We had him from Tony Blair, who flew across the world to pay court
:24:00. > :24:04.Rupert Murdoch, and we had it again from David Cameron, and I think that
:24:04. > :24:08.we need to try and move to a healthier relationship between the
:24:08. > :24:14.media and the political class. There is a vote coming up in the
:24:14. > :24:18.House of Commons this week, suggesting that the BSkyB takeover
:24:18. > :24:22.should be delayed, until after the criminal investigation is over,
:24:22. > :24:27.because it involves the fit and proper person part of the takeover
:24:27. > :24:31.law for broadcasting. Do you agree that should happen, there should
:24:31. > :24:35.a delay? We'll obviously have look at the details of the motion
:24:35. > :24:41.before deciding what should be in terms of the voting but there are
:24:41. > :24:44.two separate processes here. One is that Ofcom can at any time
:24:44. > :24:48.investigate whether the people running one of our broadcast
:24:48. > :24:53.organisations are fit and proper people, and that's not associated
:24:53. > :24:57.with the question of clearing the merger. In your view, should that
:24:57. > :25:02.be done? My colleague, Simon Hughes, has already asked Ofcom
:25:02. > :25:05.look at that and has had preliminary replies, and I think clearly it is
:25:05. > :25:09.relevant to that issue, need to know, and I believe we
:25:09. > :25:14.should have a personal assurance from Rupert Murdoch, for example,
:25:14. > :25:18.that these practices, these illegal practices didn't merely take place,
:25:18. > :25:22.you know, were confined of the World. You think other
:25:22. > :25:27.newspapers were involved as well? There are rumours at the moment
:25:27. > :25:30.there are civil actions against The Sun, there have been rumours even
:25:30. > :25:34.that the Sunday Times may be involved in this, and I think
:25:34. > :25:38.should have a clear assurance from Rupert Murdoch that he believes that
:25:38. > :25:42.none of his other titles have been involved in these activities,
:25:42. > :25:47.because clearly, if this is very widespread through News Corp, then
:25:47. > :25:50.that is very relevant to the issue of a fit and proper person running a
:25:50. > :25:54.broadcasting organisation. So putting the vote in the Commons to
:25:55. > :25:58.one side, do you think it would be right and proper to go ahead with
:25:58. > :26:02.the takeover in the next few while all of this is still up in the
:26:02. > :26:06.air? My understanding is there been such an enormous response to
:26:07. > :26:12.the consultation that Jeremy Hunt has put out there that I
:26:12. > :26:16.will take a considerable time to understand exactly what all
:26:16. > :26:20.people who responded to that consultation are saying, but the key
:26:20. > :26:24.test for Jeremy Hunt, and the that that procedure is run, is about
:26:24. > :26:28.media plurality, in other about the extent to which the media
:26:28. > :26:32.are diverse, and there is a very important issue there, because
:26:32. > :26:36.think it is crucial that the press in particular, the press and
:26:36. > :26:41.broadcast, are diverse, that we are genuinely a liberal democracy,
:26:41. > :26:45.a lot of different voices. It will be a very interesting test
:26:45. > :26:49.Liberal Democrat MPs which way they go. We mentioned it earlier on,
:26:49. > :26:53.have had some trouble yourself in the press. Is the Mail on Sunday
:26:53. > :26:58.story broadly true? They have taken things completely out of context. I
:26:58. > :27:01.welcome the fact there is a police inquiry, because it will stop
:27:01. > :27:04.rubbish stories appearing in Tory newspapers, and get to the bottom of
:27:04. > :27:08.this and draw a line under it, and that's what I intend to wait and see
:27:08. > :27:12.the results of. Can I just ask the obvious and direct question, did you
:27:12. > :27:17.ask anybody else to take points? I have repeatedly denied
:27:17. > :27:22.these allegations and I stick to that. Let's turn to your
:27:22. > :27:28.day job, if I can put it that way, which is becoming more and more
:27:28. > :27:32.embroiled in a very, very difficult question of shooting up energy
:27:32. > :27:35.prices, not just rising, accelerating enormously. 18%,
:27:35. > :27:39.British Gas. We already have a lot of people in this country,
:27:39. > :27:44.particularly pensioners, who are having real difficulties in heating
:27:44. > :27:48.their houses, and paying their electricity bills, is there nothing
:27:48. > :27:52.direct that you can do about this? Well, we are doing quite a lot,
:27:52. > :27:55.the most vulnerable households, like pensioners, for example, we're
:27:55. > :28:01.putting the current discount schemes, which are voluntary for the
:28:01. > :28:06.big six, on a statutory basis, and that means pensioners will be able
:28:06. > :28:09.to get �120 discount, for 800,000 pensioners substantially more as
:28:09. > :28:15.well. Essentially, we're raising the amount of public money going to help
:28:15. > :28:19.the most vulnerable people in fuel poverty by two thirds, 67% increase,
:28:19. > :28:23.on what has happened before, but the key point here, this is just
:28:23. > :28:26.sticking plaster. Time and again, we have had Energy Secretaries saying,
:28:27. > :28:30."We are going to help the fuel poor", but we have to get to
:28:30. > :28:34.roots of the problem, and that means tackling the inefficient wasteful
:28:34. > :28:37.homes we have. That's what we're doing, starting next year with
:28:38. > :28:41.green deal, we're going to have a Bigginslation programme which will
:28:41. > :28:47.massively save, not just pensioners, but across the country. The real
:28:47. > :28:50.root of the problems are these rocketing prices. 18%? There is one
:28:50. > :28:55.thing that a British Energy Secretary cannot do, and that is
:28:55. > :28:59.control events in the Middle East. If we want to get out from under the
:28:59. > :29:04.volatility of these world markets, the best way we can do it is to save
:29:04. > :29:09.energy, make our bills much less sensitive to world market prices,
:29:09. > :29:13.and get on in the long-term, which is a long-term job, get on to clean
:29:13. > :29:20.secure green energy sources which don't bounce around with world oil
:29:20. > :29:24.and gas prices. But to do that, are putting a huge subsidy into wind
:29:24. > :29:28.farms, which are, you know, they're not even built here, all the
:29:28. > :29:34.technology coming over is German. This is nonsense. There is stuff
:29:34. > :29:38.the papers today and over the last couple of days which is just
:29:38. > :29:42.arithmetically wrong. I mean, the claims of very large amounts on
:29:42. > :29:47.people's bills are absolute nonsense. The reality is Ofgem, not
:29:47. > :29:52.the department, this is an independent organisation, estimates
:29:52. > :29:55.about 10% as a result of environmental levies, designed, for
:29:56. > :30:00.example, to encourage energy saving. Now what it doesn't do is
:30:00. > :30:04.account of the impact of that energy saving. That's the effect on gas and
:30:04. > :30:10.electricity prices, but once you take the effect on bills, you
:30:10. > :30:15.actually find that we're getting overall bills down in the long run,
:30:15. > :30:19.and that's crucial. But you have put a huge amount of focus on
:30:19. > :30:24.need for greener energy, and to get that, you have had to put in what is
:30:24. > :30:28.in effect a green tax, it's a carbon floor, but in effect a green tax,
:30:28. > :30:33.and at the same time in effect you are going to be subsidising nuclear
:30:33. > :30:38.energy, which you always used to say - No, we're not. There will be no
:30:38. > :30:43.help for nuclear energy in terms of its price? The reality is, we have
:30:43. > :30:47.the EU's emissions trading scheme, and we have a carbon price floor
:30:47. > :30:51.support, because we don't think the emissions trading scheme is
:30:51. > :30:56.adequate. That helps any low carbon generation against carbon
:30:56. > :30:59.generation. Why do we have the highest prices in Europe? That's
:30:59. > :31:04.absolute nonsense, we have some of the lowest prices in Europe, and
:31:04. > :31:09.we had - that is absolute nonsense that story. There are some
:31:09. > :31:13.senior analysts who are taking it very seriously who say we have
:31:13. > :31:17.of the highest prices in Europe. This is an extraordinary rubbish
:31:17. > :31:21.calculation, I am happy to sit them down with our chief economist and
:31:21. > :31:24.show them why they have that wrong. The reality is we have some of the
:31:24. > :31:27.lowest energy prices in Europe, we could get them lower. The country
:31:27. > :31:31.with the lowest energy prices moment happens to be France,
:31:31. > :31:36.it doesn't rely from oil and gas from a very volatile part of the
:31:37. > :31:40.world, over 80% of it comes from renewables and nuclear, and so
:31:40. > :31:45.have electricity bills which are lower than ours, and the recent
:31:45. > :31:51.increase in electricity in France is just 3%, compared with the 18% which
:31:51. > :31:54.we're getting from British Gas. So if we want to get off the
:31:54. > :31:59.vulnerability which we've got to these world markets, we have to move
:31:59. > :32:03.to low carbon sources. We're not saying one type of low carbon or
:32:03. > :32:08.another, but we've got to get off that oil and gas fuel hook. What
:32:08. > :32:13.your direct message to all of people anguished and outraged when
:32:13. > :32:17.they see they're going to have to be paying 18% more for their gas?
:32:17. > :32:21.the short run - because about the long run. We're going to
:32:21. > :32:25.encourage new entrants into the market, more competition, and it is
:32:25. > :32:30.actually true, go on some of the switch websites and see how much you
:32:30. > :32:34.can save. Ofgem calculated that if you simply switched to the cheapest
:32:34. > :32:37.rate at the beginning of last year, people could save up to �200 on
:32:37. > :32:40.their energy bills. Switching really effective means of the
:32:40. > :32:45.consumer taking some power, and have also introduced, since the
:32:45. > :32:50.government came in, a new assurance that people have to be given 30
:32:50. > :32:54.days' notice before the companies put up their prices. In the old
:32:54. > :32:58.days, they were able to put up their prices and tell you afterwards.
:32:58. > :33:01.want to see them take proper control over the price level. Briefly,
:33:01. > :33:04.Germany has put a complete hold on its nuclear programme after the
:33:04. > :33:10.Japanese disaster. You have no second thoughts about pressing ahead
:33:10. > :33:15.so vigorously with nuclear power in this country? We asked the chief
:33:15. > :33:18.nuclear inspector, a distinguished figure in the field, to look at the
:33:18. > :33:22.lessons from Fukushima, and he concluded in an interim report
:33:22. > :33:26.there were no consequences, given that the earthquake in Japan was
:33:26. > :33:30.65,000 times stronger than the biggest earthquake we've ever
:33:30. > :33:34.suffered in the UK area. You used to call this failed technology.
:33:34. > :33:38.you changed your mind? The key point here is subsidy. If we are
:33:38. > :33:42.going to provide subsidy to nuclear, if investors want to go ahead and do
:33:42. > :33:45.that, then I believe it part of our energy mix, and that's
:33:45. > :33:51.the key thing. Investors are telling us that they're prepared to do that,
:33:51. > :33:55.if it's renewables, if it's nuclear or if it's fossil fuels, coal and
:33:55. > :33:59.gas with carbon capture and storage, any of those, plus energy saving,
:33:59. > :34:02.are the right way to ensure we low cost affordable electricity
:34:02. > :34:10.the future. Thank you very much indeed. More than a billion
:34:10. > :34:14.add here to the Islamic faith, it's the world's fastest growing religion
:34:14. > :34:19.and could soon be the biggest, follow the Koran and the Prophet
:34:19. > :34:23.Mohammed. But who was he and did he teach? In a new series for
:34:23. > :34:29.BBC2, Rageh Omaar will follow in the footsteps of Mohammed, to examine
:34:29. > :34:36.his early life, visions. The programme makers were mindful of
:34:36. > :34:38.tradition, so there is no attempt to make it visual, but it is already
:34:38. > :34:42.controversial, the Iranian government has threatened action.
:34:42. > :34:48.will be talking to him in a moment, but here is a clip from programme
:34:48. > :34:54.one. According to Muslim tradition, Mohammed was meditating as usual,
:34:54. > :34:58.and he fell asleep, but then suddenly he awoke in abject terror,
:34:58. > :35:03.his body shaking uncontrollably. He later described the experience as if
:35:03. > :35:11.an angel had him in such a tight suffocating embrace that he felt
:35:11. > :35:15.that his life was being squeezed out of him. Rageh Omaar, welcome. They
:35:15. > :35:19.haven't seen the programme, but the Iranian authorities are already
:35:19. > :35:24.making menacing noises and suggesting they're going to take
:35:24. > :35:28.some kind of serious action. Does your blood run cold? No, it
:35:28. > :35:31.doesn't, because in many ways, this was a programme that one expected
:35:31. > :35:34.was going to be prejudged from certain quarters before it was
:35:34. > :35:39.broadcast, quite interestingly, think the Iranian government is
:35:39. > :35:46.making its own series on Mohammed, so whether it was spiking our guns
:35:46. > :35:49.to save their own or not, but no, all of us made the programme
:35:49. > :35:54.expecting there to be people who would prejudge it, but wait
:35:54. > :35:59.the programme goes out, because it challenges a lot of assumptions and
:35:59. > :36:03.goes into difficult areas to explain this man, his life and legacy for
:36:03. > :36:07.Muslims and non-Muslims. able to go and film in Mecca which
:36:07. > :36:14.most people can't do. Are you a Muslim? I was brought up as Muslim.
:36:14. > :36:15.Are you Muslim now? I am a Muslim yes. So you were taking presumably
:36:16. > :36:22.a Muslim point of view in this programme? Because I
:36:22. > :36:29.the things the Iranians are about is that there might be a Sunni
:36:29. > :36:32.version of Mohammed, rather than a Shi'ite one. The thing we were
:36:32. > :36:35.categorical about in making this programme, this has not been done on
:36:36. > :36:40.British television or anywhere else, filming in all the locations,
:36:40. > :36:45.just Mecca, but all the key areas of his life, virtually in
:36:45. > :36:50.his footsteps, this was going to be seen not just from one tradition or
:36:50. > :36:54.another, we had huge amounts of experts and historians who tell the
:36:54. > :36:58.story from many different viewpoints, whether sectarian or
:36:58. > :37:03.non-Muslim viewpoint. What we have produced is a series that captures
:37:03. > :37:06.Mohammed and kiss life in the whole, - and his life in the whole, and
:37:06. > :37:10.it's important that was done, because we want the programme to be
:37:10. > :37:14.explanatory. He is a figure, not just historically and for Muslims,
:37:14. > :37:17.but in the modern world as well. Very difficult to do three hours of
:37:17. > :37:20.television about somebody where you can't see the person. How did you
:37:20. > :37:24.get round that? There are other historical programmes that have been
:37:24. > :37:28.made, not just purely biographies, that don't show or spend a lot of
:37:28. > :37:32.time doing reconstructions, that was something we weren't going to do,
:37:32. > :37:37.but you know it's part of Muslim tradition that he is not depicted.
:37:37. > :37:41.But he has been described verbally. That's fine. There are some small
:37:41. > :37:44.Persian miniatures which of course don't show his face, which is
:37:44. > :37:48.veiled. As a programme maker, I thought at first it was going to
:37:48. > :37:52.one of the most challenging parts of it, but it wasn't. I don't think it
:37:52. > :37:56.inhibited or stopped us telling story in detail. Can I just
:37:57. > :38:01.the famine in the Horn of Africa as well? You have got strong family
:38:01. > :38:08.connections, your brother is a minister in the government. A lot of
:38:08. > :38:12.people are saying that had this been 20 years ago, in Michael Burke
:38:12. > :38:15.territory as it were, there would have been huge global upset about
:38:15. > :38:19.it, massive campaigns being run around the world, actually in this
:38:19. > :38:24.country people are passing large amounts of money, but
:38:24. > :38:32.think there is a sort of, we gone through a period of coarsening
:38:32. > :38:34.as it were we have become too - aid fatigue? To a certain extent. This
:38:34. > :38:37.country is remarkable. When at the figures from
:38:37. > :38:41.Emergency Committee, I relationship and work with the
:38:41. > :38:46.The Children, who have been working in Somalia for as long as I have
:38:46. > :38:51.been alive, there is an element that, but it doesn't show in
:38:51. > :38:56.amount people give. There is a problem journalistcally, all the at
:38:56. > :39:00.the end of a particular emergency that cameras go, this was two years
:39:00. > :39:05.in the making at least, but one thing I would say is this isn't just
:39:05. > :39:09.a thing of drought, it has worsened it, but it's war and politics.
:39:09. > :39:13.of the accounts of the refugees have travelled into Kenya, speaking
:39:13. > :39:17.about militant groups holding up their journey, which means that the
:39:17. > :39:21.youngest children are weakened, I believe those groups are being
:39:21. > :39:25.shamed into allowing aid agencies work there again, but this is
:39:25. > :39:28.story which has begun too late, but I think will continue and should
:39:28. > :39:31.continue, because the world is finally taking awareness that it can
:39:31. > :39:35.make a difference. Rageh Omaar, thank you very much indeed, good
:39:35. > :39:39.luck with the programme. The Labour leader has taken up the phone
:39:39. > :39:42.hacking story with gusto, for the resignation of the News
:39:42. > :39:46.International chief Rebekah Brooks. Insisting on the
:39:46. > :39:50.judicial inquiry to get going right away. And now demanding that Rupert
:39:50. > :39:53.Murdoch's ambitions to take over BSkyB should be stalled. He's
:39:53. > :39:58.to be meeting the Prime face to face this week, so what
:39:58. > :40:01.needs to happen? Ed Miliband is with me now. Welcome. Hello. What will
:40:01. > :40:05.you be asking the Prime do that he hasn't done so far
:40:05. > :40:09.you have that meeting? There are a range of things that he needs to do.
:40:09. > :40:15.I think the first and most pressing is that he needs to make clear that
:40:15. > :40:20.the BSkyB bid, the bid to take over BSkyB, 100% ownership, can't go
:40:20. > :40:24.ahead until after the criminal investigation is complete. And I'll
:40:24. > :40:27.perhaps explain why that is in a moment. He also needs to explain the
:40:28. > :40:31.nature of the judge-led inquiry, and show that it's going to cover
:40:31. > :40:36.the major issues, because I'm starting to get concerned that it
:40:36. > :40:40.won't do that. And I also think he's got to answer some questions about
:40:40. > :40:44.his own relationships with Andy Coulson, the error of judgment he
:40:44. > :40:49.made in hiring Andy Coulson, and also what he knew about Mr
:40:49. > :40:53.also what he knew about Mr Coulson's activities, because I think, Andrew,
:40:53. > :40:55.we've seen a massive change 24 week. The public won't accept
:40:55. > :40:58.less than the leadership that is necessary from the Prime Minister
:40:58. > :41:02.and the response to the real sense of outrage the public have
:41:02. > :41:06.about the revelations around Dowler and all of those issues.
:41:06. > :41:10.Let's go through these in order then. First of all, the business of,
:41:10. > :41:16.you've got a motion down in the House of Commons next week to delay
:41:16. > :41:19.any takeover of the BSkyB - will depend upon you being able to
:41:19. > :41:22.win over Liberal Democrat and perhaps Conservative MPs
:41:22. > :41:27.point of view. Is this a motion you're putting down just for
:41:27. > :41:32.political effect, or is this a motion you could win? I hope we can
:41:32. > :41:34.win, and let me explain why. We've always thought that the BSkyB
:41:34. > :41:38.should be referred to Competition Commission,
:41:38. > :41:41.regulatory authority. The government chose a different course, a course
:41:41. > :41:47.which relies upon assurances from news corporation about what they
:41:47. > :41:50.will do and the behaviour in the future. I have to say, after this
:41:50. > :41:54.week, I don't believe it's right and I don't believe the public will
:41:54. > :41:58.accept the position whereby this bid is waved through over the coming
:41:58. > :42:03.months, even if it is in on the basis of assurances from news
:42:03. > :42:07.corporation, that's why we're this bid cannot be completed, the
:42:07. > :42:11.process cannot be completed by Jeremy Hunt until after this
:42:11. > :42:14.criminal investigation is complete. Is that because of the fit and
:42:14. > :42:17.proper person clause? Two reasons. First of all - after all, we have
:42:17. > :42:21.seen the head of Complaints Commission this week say
:42:21. > :42:26.she was lied to by News Corporation, and we're expected to believe
:42:26. > :42:30.Jeremy Hunt that he can go with this process, this takeover of
:42:30. > :42:35.BSkyB, on the basis of assurances from News Corporation. Now
:42:35. > :42:38.think that's acceptable, and I also believe that Ofcom must have a
:42:38. > :42:42.chance, when this criminal investigation is complete, to
:42:42. > :42:46.consider the fit and proper person test. And I hope - I say this
:42:46. > :42:50.Prime Minister candidly, over the next 72 hours, I hope he changes
:42:50. > :42:53.position on this, because I want to have to force this to
:42:53. > :42:59.in the House of Commons, but he has to understand that when the public
:42:59. > :43:03.have seen the disgusting revelations that we've seen this week, the idea,
:43:03. > :43:08.this organisation, which engaged in these terrible practices, should be
:43:08. > :43:11.allowed to take over BSkyB, to get that 100% stake, without the
:43:11. > :43:14.criminal investigation having been completed, and on the basis of
:43:14. > :43:17.assurances from that self-same organisation, frankly that
:43:17. > :43:21.won't wash with the public. Chris Huhne mentioned other newspapers as
:43:21. > :43:24.well, is that a concern of yours, you think this may have spread
:43:24. > :43:28.beyond one newspaper? I think that the judge-led inquiry needs to
:43:28. > :43:30.at the culture and practices throughout the industry. That's
:43:30. > :43:35.what you were saying. You think there should be other
:43:35. > :43:39.groups and newspapers? In the announcement the Prime Minister made
:43:39. > :43:43.on Friday, he said the issue of the culture and practice of the industry
:43:43. > :43:46.would be looked at separately, not in a judge-led inquiry. I think it's
:43:46. > :43:49.very important that inquiry is judge-led, that it looks at all of
:43:49. > :43:52.those issues and begins immediately, and also an important point, it
:43:52. > :43:56.looks at the relationship between the police and newspapers, because
:43:56. > :44:00.that is another important factor on this, but I do say, just to finish
:44:00. > :44:04.on BSkyB, I do honestly say to the Prime Minister that I don't
:44:04. > :44:07.can carry on with business in the way that he has been doing, I
:44:07. > :44:11.do think he's got to where the public is, and I think
:44:11. > :44:15.it's right, if he doesn't do so, that the House of Commons gets to
:44:15. > :44:18.express its view. Quite a lot of the newspaper commentators today
:44:19. > :44:22.suggest that in taking on Rupert Murdoch and ending what has been
:44:22. > :44:26.long Labour tradition of trying to get alongside Rupert Murdoch
:44:26. > :44:32.News International, your former boss Gordon Brown, former
:44:32. > :44:38.Tony Blair, absolutely at it, have taken on something you don't
:44:38. > :44:42.quite understand, that you are to be pursued for the rest of your
:44:42. > :44:45.time as Labour leader by this newspaper group. And that you've
:44:45. > :44:50.already been warned in fact, warned off doing this. I've tried to do
:44:50. > :44:53.the right thing. Have you been warned off doing it by colleagues?
:44:53. > :44:57.I don't think that people at News International were very happy about
:44:57. > :45:01.what I've been saying this week, but what I've tried to do - Can I ask
:45:01. > :45:04.you, have they actually warned you not to do it? We obviously speak to
:45:04. > :45:08.them, I think they were not very keen for me to say what I said
:45:08. > :45:12.Rebekah Brooks and other things, but that's not so much the issue. What
:45:12. > :45:15.I'm trying to do this week, and all of us must try and do is
:45:15. > :45:20.recognise the way the world has changed, because the world has
:45:20. > :45:23.changed this week, and this sense of - I just want to pause on this
:45:23. > :45:26.about the public, because the boss in this, and the
:45:27. > :45:30.have - I think the public have been ahead of the politicians on this
:45:30. > :45:35.point, and I think this week has crystallised what the
:45:35. > :45:37.been feeling, this sense of what has happened to morality in parts of our
:45:38. > :45:41.newspaper industry, what has happened to the sense of right and
:45:42. > :45:46.wrong among people who could hack the phones of the families of
:45:46. > :45:50.soldiers who fell in Iraq or Afghanistan, and you know -
:45:50. > :45:55.therefore we have to, in this moment, understand where the public
:45:55. > :45:59.is, and we have to respond in a calm and level headed way, but
:46:00. > :46:03.that speaks to the gravity of moment. Well, in this moment,
:46:03. > :46:08.you able to say that the relationship between Tony Blair and
:46:08. > :46:12.Gordon Brown and News International and other newspaper proprietors was
:46:12. > :46:16.unhealthily close? It was too close. It was too close, it was
:46:16. > :46:19.wrong? And it was too close in the following respect that we didn't
:46:19. > :46:23.speak out enough on some of the major issues which people are
:46:23. > :46:27.talking about, like the issue of press regulation, for example. I'm
:46:27. > :46:31.in favour of self-regulation, so the press not being told what to do and
:46:31. > :46:35.told how to regulate by politicians, but the current system doesn't work.
:46:35. > :46:38.We should have spoken out earlier about those questions. And do you
:46:38. > :46:42.know, you have got to understand the context of this. Politicians
:46:42. > :46:45.win elections, they want to support them. If I may say so,
:46:45. > :46:51.you yourself went to the Rupert Murdoch party, you didn't raise any
:46:51. > :46:56.of this with him. Yes, and I should have done. Let me explain why I
:46:56. > :47:00.didn't. We all understand why, because he's so powerful. But
:47:00. > :47:04.you're making a judgment about how you win support, and also about what
:47:04. > :47:09.you can and can't do, but I that has changed. I did speak out in
:47:09. > :47:12.favour of the inquiry into these practices a couple of months back,
:47:13. > :47:17.but I accept my responsibility, should have spoken out earlier. I
:47:18. > :47:22.think the question now is how do we make sure that we, as I say, speak
:47:22. > :47:26.to this moment, and the feelings the public about this, because I've
:47:26. > :47:29.been struck, as I've talked to people over the last few days, the
:47:29. > :47:33.sense of revulsion that the public felt, and actually the fact
:47:33. > :47:36.they have felt this for some time. You would be prepared to say that
:47:36. > :47:41.the way that previous Labour leaders courted News International was wrong
:47:41. > :47:47.and unhealthy? I'm not blaming them for it, because in 1992000 as people
:47:47. > :47:51.may remember, we lost an election when one of our leaders, Neil
:47:51. > :47:54.Kinnock, was dealt with very badly by those organisations, so it's
:47:54. > :47:58.understandable, but Tony Blair himself said in his last speech
:47:58. > :48:03.Prime Minister on the issue of the press that the relationship was too
:48:03. > :48:07.close, and he was right to say that, and - but let me just make one
:48:07. > :48:12.point. I'm not saying that contacts between myself and journalists,
:48:12. > :48:15.propose pricers, are going to stop, that would be naive - proprietors.
:48:15. > :48:20.Politicians are going to continue to make those contacts. But just like
:48:20. > :48:24.we mustn't have a press that doesn't speak out against politicians, so we
:48:24. > :48:29.mustn't have politicians that aren't willing to speak out against
:48:29. > :48:34.sections of the press when they do wrong by the public. Let me come to
:48:34. > :48:37.press regulation. A lot of very fine journalists on good newspapers are
:48:37. > :48:40.extremely worried that what's going to happen on the back of this
:48:40. > :48:45.is the political class is going to get together and put in a new system
:48:45. > :48:50.of rules and regulations effectively intending to muzzle the press, you
:48:50. > :48:54.know, to remove some of the uncomfortable things the press does,
:48:54. > :48:57.I know all about that, but that we pay for as the price of a free
:48:57. > :49:01.society and a free press. don't think that's going to happen
:49:01. > :49:05.I'm not seeking for that to happen. That's why we need a level headed
:49:05. > :49:09.response to this. What is the nature of the new body that you want
:49:09. > :49:13.to see? You currently have the Press Complaints Commission, most of
:49:13. > :49:18.the people on it are editors, so current editors. It doesn't have
:49:18. > :49:21.powers to investigate really, so that's why it says it was lied to
:49:21. > :49:25.and couldn't do anything about by News International. It doesn't
:49:25. > :49:29.have the power to demand corrections in a prominent position, so
:49:29. > :49:33.example if someone says something that's wrong on page 1, the
:49:33. > :49:39.correction gets buried on page 23. Would it therefore be acceptable
:49:39. > :49:42.the PCC to be reformed and improved and given new teeth and allowed to
:49:42. > :49:46.carry on? I don't think the PCC can do that, I don't think it commands
:49:46. > :49:51.public confidence, so it needs to a new body. But standing well aside
:49:51. > :49:55.from the political class? Yes, my instincts are for self-regulation,
:49:55. > :49:59.because we prize a free this country, and we look to other
:49:59. > :50:02.countries - so a new self-regulatory body with tougher
:50:02. > :50:05.powers? That would be my preference. You have been very
:50:05. > :50:08.critical of the Prime Minister in hiring Andy Coulson, and it's
:50:08. > :50:13.that was to produce a conduit News International. Can you remind
:50:13. > :50:18.us where your own press secretary used to work? I have two people
:50:18. > :50:21.working for me - one who used to work for the Daily Mirror, and one
:50:22. > :50:26.who used to work for The Times newspaper, and I have other people -
:50:26. > :50:31.So your director of communications also used to work for Rupert
:50:31. > :50:35.Murdoch. A lot of people are saying it's same old same old. Let me go
:50:35. > :50:38.straight to this point, people trying to make a comparison
:50:38. > :50:44.Andy Coulson, who resigned News of the World over phone
:50:44. > :50:50.News of the World over phone of the royal, as it - of the Royal
:50:50. > :50:52.Family, and Tom Baldwin, who works for me. He was engaged on The Times
:50:52. > :50:57.newspaper including the investigation of Michael Ashcroft
:50:57. > :51:03.about whom there was massive public interest. But he used somebody
:51:03. > :51:06.go into Michael Ashcroft's bank account. That is untrue. Because
:51:07. > :51:13.Lord Ashcroft is very clear that his bank account, he has
:51:13. > :51:19.the details of it, was blacked into. Lord Ashcroft is saying that Tom
:51:19. > :51:23.Baldwin hired a private investigator to perform illegal activities.
:51:23. > :51:27.Baldwin absolutely denies this. you have asked all the right
:51:27. > :51:31.questions, as David Cameron didn't? Yes, I have. And I have to say
:51:31. > :51:34.this is pretty desperate stuff, because the Prime Minister must
:51:34. > :51:38.answer the real questions at the heart of this affair, about his
:51:38. > :51:42.error of judgment in hiring Andy Coulson, and also the mounting
:51:42. > :51:46.evidence there now is about the warnings that were given to him
:51:46. > :51:48.before he brought Andy Coulson into the heart of the Downing Street
:51:48. > :51:53.machine, warnings from The Guardian newspaper, with evidence that there
:51:53. > :51:57.was a convicted criminal that had been hired by Andy Coulson,
:51:57. > :52:01.who had paid the police on behalf of newspapers, warnings from Lord
:52:01. > :52:04.Ashdown, warnings, I felt, Chris Huhne and Nick Clegg, and it's
:52:04. > :52:07.Prime Minister has got to come clean on this affair if he's going to lead
:52:07. > :52:13.the change we need in relation to our press. You have declared
:52:13. > :52:19.Rupert Murdoch, haven't you? No, I haven't, this is not about a war
:52:19. > :52:23.with one proprietor, this is saying that the free press is incredibly
:52:23. > :52:27.important, and a fatherless press, but when they - fearless press, but
:52:27. > :52:31.when they do wrong by the British people, politicians need to say
:52:31. > :52:34.that. It's not about one particular proprietor. I asked you earlier on
:52:34. > :52:38.what you wanted from the Prime Minister, when Rupert Murdoch
:52:38. > :52:45.off his plane, relatively shortly, what should he do? The first thing
:52:45. > :52:48.he should do is drop the bid for BSkyB, because he should recognise
:52:48. > :52:53.that with the cloud hanging over his organisation, it's not possible,
:52:53. > :52:56.don't think, for this bid to go ahead at the current time, and the
:52:56. > :52:59.second thing he should do is show some responsibility in relation to
:52:59. > :53:04.his organisation, because I think it beggars belief. What does
:53:04. > :53:07.mean? It beggars belief Rebekah Brooks is still in her post.
:53:07. > :53:10.She was the editor at the time Milly Dowler's phone was hacked.
:53:11. > :53:14.That was a terrible thing that happened, deletion of messages,
:53:14. > :53:18.causing further grief to her parents, giving them false hope
:53:18. > :53:23.she was alive, and the least he should do is say that Rebekah Brooks
:53:23. > :53:28.cannot continue. The idea that she's still in post, as I say,
:53:28. > :53:31.think the public can understand that can possibly be the case. This
:53:31. > :53:35.huge story has blown away a lot of other stories. One of the
:53:35. > :53:41.it's blown away has been what looks like an almost co-ordinated series
:53:41. > :53:45.of criticisms of you by Tony Blair, and Peter Mandelson, both saying,
:53:45. > :53:52.you strip aside all the jargon, basically that you're too far to the
:53:52. > :53:56.left. I hadn't noticed that. Look, I - Oh, come on. He told the
:53:56. > :54:02.progress rally that new labour effectively died when Gordon Brown
:54:02. > :54:08.took over, and that you can only win elections absolutely plumb centre,
:54:08. > :54:11.and then suggested that you were - Tony Blair is entitled to his view,
:54:11. > :54:16.I have had good conversations private with Tony Blair, but let me
:54:16. > :54:20.just say this, it all depends when you think the centre ground is. I
:54:20. > :54:24.absolutely believe in placing my party in the centre ground, but
:54:24. > :54:26.there is a new centre ground, that means you speak out on these issues
:54:26. > :54:29.of press responsibility, a new centre ground that says
:54:29. > :54:32.responsibility in the banking system, which we didn't talk about
:54:33. > :54:36.enough when we were in government, is relevant. A new centre
:54:36. > :54:40.that says people are worried about concentrations of private power in
:54:40. > :54:42.this country when it leads to abuses, and that's the new centre
:54:42. > :54:46.ground. So there was a centre ground that Tony Blair was occupying
:54:46. > :54:51.he was the leader of the Labour Party, but one of the things you've
:54:51. > :54:55.got to do in politics is you have to run from the centre - I'm
:54:55. > :54:58.that I'm leading the Labour Party, speaking to the concerns of the
:54:58. > :55:00.country, and that is what matters, that's what I'm going to carry on
:55:00. > :55:05.doing. You've got quite an important rule change
:55:05. > :55:09.Labour Party to give you more power to decide who's in your Shadow
:55:09. > :55:14.Cabinet. Are you going to use that power fairly briskly, are you going
:55:14. > :55:18.to reshape your Shadow Cabinet? not going to imminently
:55:18. > :55:21.Shadow Cabinet, but let me say this, the reason I did that was I believe
:55:21. > :55:25.it's very important that our party speaks outwards to the country and
:55:25. > :55:29.doesn't look inwards, and this has been obviously clear this week, but
:55:29. > :55:33.it's got to be true every week of our time in Opposition. We're
:55:33. > :55:38.to do something very difficult to a one term Opposition, we've got no
:55:38. > :55:42.time for self-indulgence or looking inwards, and I came to the view
:55:42. > :55:46.Shadow Cabinet elections, all that jockeying for position, was the
:55:46. > :55:50.wrong thing for our party and a distraction. By the time of the
:55:50. > :55:55.conference, will you have a new team and a new focus? I'm not going
:55:55. > :55:59.get into that. That would allow you to bring your brother back. He is a
:55:59. > :56:03.talented person, but he has made position clear. I'm not saying
:56:03. > :56:08.you'll be the first to know, but we'll see what happens. The general
:56:08. > :56:13.criticism however, that your leadership needs a bit of dynamism,
:56:13. > :56:16.tougher direction, is one you would accept? No, I have been very clear
:56:16. > :56:19.about the direction I am taking, am speaking to the concerns of the
:56:19. > :56:22.country in a way I think that other politicians aren't speaking at the
:56:22. > :56:26.moment, other parties, the squeeze on people's living standards, which
:56:26. > :56:28.is a massive issue, and remains massive issue,
:56:28. > :56:31.massive issue, people's worry about the next generation in Britain and
:56:31. > :56:34.what's happening to them, and need for responsibility,
:56:34. > :56:37.responsibility yes in the benefits system, but responsibility yes also
:56:37. > :56:40.in our boardrooms as well. A week ahead. Thank you very much
:56:40. > :56:44.indeed, Ed Miliband. Over to Louise for the news headlines.
:56:44. > :56:49.Thanks, Andrew. The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, has called on
:56:49. > :56:53.Murdoch to drop his bid to take over BSkyB television. Mr Miliband told
:56:53. > :56:58.this programme that the idea of the deal going ahead before the police
:56:58. > :57:02.investigation into phone hacking at the News of the World is completed
:57:02. > :57:06.simply wouldn't wash with the public. Meanwhile, cabinet minister
:57:06. > :57:09.Chris Huhne said Mr Murdoch needed to give a clear assurance that none
:57:10. > :57:13.of his other newspaper titles been involved in phone hacking.
:57:13. > :57:17.There were emotional scenes last night as News of the World staff
:57:17. > :57:20.left their offices after producing the final edition of the paper.
:57:20. > :57:25.Rupert Murdoch is due to arrive in London later to deal with the
:57:25. > :57:29.crisis, which forced the closure of the newspaper. At least six police
:57:29. > :57:35.officers have been injured in rioting in County Antrim, Loyalists
:57:35. > :57:38.attacked the police in several towns near Belfast, in one incident, a
:57:38. > :57:42.hijacked bus crashed into a police vehicle. It is thought the trouble
:57:42. > :57:48.started because of a dispute about flags. That's all from me for now,
:57:48. > :57:52.the next news on BBC 1 is at 11, back to Andrew in a moment, first
:57:52. > :58:00.look at what's coming up after the show. Today on Sunday morning live,
:58:00. > :58:05.is the phone hacking scandal our own fault? Peter hitchens says we get
:58:05. > :58:12.the press we deserve. Should you fake faith to get your child
:58:12. > :58:16.the school you want? Go to our website to join in.
:58:16. > :58:20.Interesting stuff. That's it from us for today. Just time for next week's
:58:20. > :58:23.show, with exactly a year to before the 2012 Olympics,
:58:23. > :58:28.going to be broadcasting the programme live from the new stadium
:58:28. > :58:34.in East London and I will be talking to the Mayor of London Boris Johnson