:00:43. > :00:49.He Good morning. It is great to be back. I gather nothing happened in
:00:49. > :00:54.August, locally. This morning, the bad news is of my guests include
:00:54. > :01:00.the man twice voted, he reminds us, Britain's most boring politician.
:01:00. > :01:03.The good news is, after what he has written about life in Gordon
:01:03. > :01:07.Brown's Government, Alastair Darling won't be winning that title
:01:07. > :01:11.this year. The newspapers are bubbling about the coalition
:01:11. > :01:18.Government, about Libya and connections with Colonel Gaddafi.
:01:18. > :01:21.To review them I am joined by the Times Defence Editor Deborah Haynes
:01:21. > :01:27.and the Daily Telegraph novelist Alison Pearson. Another award
:01:27. > :01:31.received by Alastair Darling was a survivor of the year. His account
:01:31. > :01:36.of the last years of the Labour Government is one of exasperation
:01:36. > :01:41.and private fury about the behaviour of Gordon Brown. But also
:01:41. > :01:45.of future decisions taken as Britain struggled to cope with the
:01:45. > :01:49.breakdown in the banks and the recession. We will hear about his
:01:49. > :01:54.book and what he thinks about the economy now on the Bank of
:01:54. > :01:57.England's future. We will hear from senior representative of Lydia's
:01:57. > :02:03.transitional council to make sure the country does not descend into
:02:03. > :02:07.the kind of chaos that engulfed Iraq after the fall of that regime.
:02:07. > :02:13.And about Colonel Gaddafi's fate if and when he is caught. Some
:02:13. > :02:18.children it will be heading for the very first 24, free schools amid
:02:18. > :02:24.stories of the coalition arguments about them. Michael Gove, the
:02:24. > :02:33.Education Secretary is here to talk about free schools, academies and
:02:33. > :02:36.disciplined. Finally, music. # We are listening and we are not
:02:36. > :02:41.blind. Born in Dundee and followed around
:02:41. > :02:46.the world, Snow Patrol are here with their latest album.
:02:46. > :02:50.Before that, the news. The former Chancellor of the
:02:50. > :02:54.Exchequer, Alastair Darling has said there was a permanent air of
:02:54. > :02:59.chaos and crisis when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister. In extracts
:02:59. > :03:03.from his memoirs published in the Sunday Times, he accuses Mr Brown
:03:03. > :03:07.of sometimes appalling behaviour during the banking crisis.
:03:07. > :03:10.It was a relationship strained beyond breaking point, that has
:03:10. > :03:14.left the former Chancellor scarred. That is according to Alastair
:03:14. > :03:17.Darling, who describes how difficult his dealings were with
:03:17. > :03:21.Gordon Brown in a new memoir, serialised in the Sunday Times.
:03:21. > :03:25.Alastair Darling does not hold back in his denunciation of the former
:03:25. > :03:29.Prime Minister. He accuses Gordon Brown of sometimes appalling
:03:29. > :03:34.behaviour during the three years they grappled with the banking
:03:34. > :03:37.crisis. Mr Darling says at first Gordon Brown believed the economy
:03:38. > :03:44.would recover within six months and did not trust his Chancellor's
:03:44. > :03:50.advice. He describes the dysfunctional Downing Street and
:03:50. > :03:54.calls it a brutal regime. In 2009 Gordon Brown tried to replace him
:03:54. > :03:58.with Ed Balls which resulted in angry exchanges with Mr Dorrell
:03:58. > :04:01.refused to be reshuffled within the Cabinet. Alastair Darling
:04:01. > :04:06.criticises the banks for their ingratitude an air of disdain after
:04:06. > :04:10.they were bailed out by the Government. For Labour's new
:04:10. > :04:16.leadership, this the memoir is an awkward reminder of the recent
:04:16. > :04:20.poisonous past. Gordon Brown could not be reached for comment.
:04:20. > :04:25.The front-runner for the leadership of the Scottish Conservative says
:04:25. > :04:29.he will disband the party in Scotland if he wins the contest. Mr
:04:29. > :04:33.Fraser says the Conservatives carry too much baggage and wants to set
:04:33. > :04:37.up a new centre-right party to attract more voters.
:04:37. > :04:41.Libyan fighters loyal to the National Transitional Council are
:04:42. > :04:45.preparing to advance on a desert town other Bani Walid, one of the
:04:45. > :04:49.last strongholds of pro Gaddafi forces. They have issued an
:04:50. > :04:54.ultimatum for them to surrender or face an attack. Thousands of
:04:54. > :04:58.fighters are said to be moving in from three sides and its is thought
:04:58. > :05:03.many of the family may have fled through Bani Walid.
:05:03. > :05:07.As many as 400,000 people have joined demonstrations across his
:05:07. > :05:12.round in protest at the high cost of living. The largest protest is
:05:12. > :05:16.in Tel Aviv. The protesters have been demanding cheaper housing, tax
:05:16. > :05:21.cuts and improved access to free education.
:05:21. > :05:24.Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the former head of the International Monetary
:05:24. > :05:27.Fund has a right back in France. He was once seen as a possible
:05:27. > :05:31.contender for the French presidency, and has been in the United States
:05:31. > :05:36.since May, when he was accused of attempting to rape a hotel
:05:36. > :05:41.chambermaid. The charges were dropped but he faces a sexual
:05:41. > :05:43.assault charge in France. That all from me for now and I'll
:05:43. > :05:51.be back just before 10 am with the headlines.
:05:51. > :05:55.The front pages as expected. The The front pages as expected. The
:05:55. > :06:00.Mail on Sunday, secret files, Labour lied over Gaddafi. Lots of
:06:00. > :06:05.files turning up in Tripoli at the moment. People poring over them.
:06:05. > :06:08.The Sunday Times has the Alastair Darling, Gordon Brown's story.
:06:08. > :06:14.Browns of the world's worst financial crisis would last only
:06:14. > :06:21.six months. Another Libyan related stories saying MI5 espied on Libyan
:06:21. > :06:25.torture victims and dissidence against Gaddafi. Speaking of
:06:25. > :06:30.Scotland, the Sunday Telegraph, interesting story. Tory set to
:06:30. > :06:33.disband in Scotland. They are going to get rid of the name, or one of
:06:34. > :06:38.the potential leader said they should. They will call themselves
:06:38. > :06:43.the Jacobites, maybe it is just rebranding?
:06:43. > :06:46.New coalition splits over schools, banks and health, as well. A lot
:06:46. > :06:53.about coalition problems in the papers this morning, including in
:06:53. > :06:57.the observed there. Baroness Williams plunges NHS reforms into
:06:57. > :07:02.fierce turmoil. As promised, Deborah Haynes is here
:07:02. > :07:08.and Alison Pearson is here. A lot to talk about and I think we will
:07:08. > :07:13.start with a bit of Tripoli, Libya? The two papers that are leading the
:07:13. > :07:19.way this morning on the latest from Libya, are the Sunday Times and the
:07:19. > :07:22.Daily Mail. -- Sunday Mail. They have managed to find a bunch of
:07:22. > :07:26.documents that show the cosy relationship the British Government
:07:26. > :07:33.had it with the previous regime, which will prove embarrassing
:07:33. > :07:36.reading, given what has happened. Let's talk about this. One of the
:07:36. > :07:39.allegations is Abdelbaset Ali al- Megrahi, the Lockerbie bomber was
:07:39. > :07:43.got out of jail by the Labour Government because they were
:07:43. > :07:47.worried about what Colonel Gaddafi was going to do if they didn't.
:07:47. > :07:51.From what I have read there is lots of worrying e-mails and letters
:07:51. > :07:55.from British diplomats and others to the Government saying we are
:07:55. > :07:59.worried about Gaddafi in this issue. But there is nothing hard coming
:07:59. > :08:05.back from the British Government at that time saying, OK let him out
:08:05. > :08:12.then? That is the smoking gun and nobody has found by yet. I imagine
:08:12. > :08:18.it is what people are looking for right now. I am sure the Government
:08:18. > :08:25.will have sent somebody in encase if it does exist, it does not get
:08:25. > :08:30.fan. Bill looks like there was lots of cosy help for the regime? To a
:08:30. > :08:34.civilian it is deeply compromising and sordid. We have got the SAS who
:08:34. > :08:40.had been training the people in Libya, is that right? Now going
:08:40. > :08:46.back to train the other people. They were our friends, now they are
:08:46. > :08:51.our enemies, they were our enemies, now they are friends. That was her
:08:51. > :08:56.HND's policy at the time. What is interesting is the revelations in
:08:56. > :08:59.the UK, the secret intelligence services, MI5 passed on names of
:08:59. > :09:04.dissidents in the UK who are now the ones leading this revolution
:09:04. > :09:09.and will be leading the country. It does smack a bit of hypocrisy, but
:09:09. > :09:14.it is just politics. Pity grim. We passed on names of dissidents who
:09:14. > :09:17.now we will be supporting RS the new leaders. They will count the
:09:17. > :09:24.fact we supported them over the fact we snitched on them, I don't
:09:24. > :09:28.know? Meanwhile the hunt for Gaddafi goes on? There is not much
:09:28. > :09:32.about where he is in the papers this week. People saying he has
:09:32. > :09:42.managed to get out of her Bani Walid, if he was there, and is
:09:42. > :09:50.still on the loose. And also there is this naff about Tony Blair's
:09:50. > :09:55.helping Saif Al-Islam with his P.H. D! The single worst fact, the now
:09:55. > :09:59.infamous photocall of Gaddafi and Tony Blair, apparently Number Ten
:09:59. > :10:05.requested the tent because they thought it would look more
:10:05. > :10:10.authentic. Odia! Speaking of the old days, you have also picked the
:10:10. > :10:14.other Alastair Darling story? a bad day for the Government, the
:10:14. > :10:17.previous Government because there is stuff all over the place and
:10:17. > :10:22.Alastair Darling has written a shocking but very interesting
:10:22. > :10:26.memoir. Alastair Darling, I know he is in the studio, but perhaps the
:10:26. > :10:31.only man to emerge with any real credit and his reputation enhanced
:10:31. > :10:38.on the last Government. And because you said he was the most boring man,
:10:38. > :10:44.this is quietly devastating stuff. And the description of the Gordon
:10:44. > :10:48.Brown Cabral was a brutal regime and many of us fell foul of it. It
:10:48. > :10:54.makes Colonel Gaddafi's family look like the Waltons. The have picked
:10:55. > :11:01.out a story out of the Independent on Sunday? Yes, it is a picture
:11:01. > :11:08.being built up about Gordon Brown, about Mangalsen, and now Alastair
:11:08. > :11:14.Darling. We have now built up a picture of Gordon Brown, a man
:11:14. > :11:20.unfit to hold the highest office. If he put together these pieces are,
:11:20. > :11:25.terrible temper, the Budget that was deceitful and he is saying all
:11:25. > :11:30.of these men making money out of their memoirs now, why didn't they
:11:30. > :11:34.say so at the time. Not all the trouble in the papers is trouble
:11:34. > :11:39.for the last Government. The Conservatives having trouble?
:11:39. > :11:45.has been an interesting story that has been going this week and it is
:11:45. > :11:49.all over the papers today, with various different names coming in.
:11:49. > :11:53.You have the head of the National Trust who is dealing in this
:11:53. > :11:58.campaign to get some changes. got a lot of stick, they went for
:11:58. > :12:03.her? She gives a really good defence of her position in the
:12:03. > :12:06.Sunday Telegraph when she talks about how it is a debate, the paper
:12:06. > :12:11.has opened it for consultation and it is not about who is right or
:12:11. > :12:18.wrong, it is about compromising on something that has clearly upset a
:12:18. > :12:23.lot of people. You have this ludicrous position of where the
:12:23. > :12:27.Telegraph is now running a campaign on the countryside to prevents too
:12:27. > :12:32.much building. This is the party that is meant to be supporting the
:12:32. > :12:38.Conservative Party, so we have a flip where the Tories have turned
:12:38. > :12:43.against their natural constituents, and Labour has become a party of
:12:43. > :12:50.the shires. I will show you this, among us into the radio, farming
:12:50. > :12:55.Today has been replaced by builders world. Brilliant cartoon.
:12:55. > :13:01.9/11 is coming up next week. Already lots in the papers and no
:13:01. > :13:06.doubt plenty more in the week to come about the aftermath of 9/11. A
:13:06. > :13:10.lot of focus on the victims. Independent has a nice feature
:13:10. > :13:16.today about the children that were left behind. It says there were
:13:16. > :13:23.more than 3,000 children under the age of 18 who were left orphaned by
:13:23. > :13:29.minor -- 9/11. The average age was 9th. It is a moving idea of it and
:13:29. > :13:34.they have this interesting poll that was taken which says about
:13:34. > :13:40.35,000 people in 66 different countries have been convicted of
:13:40. > :13:44.terrorist charges since 9/11. And 119,000 people were arrested.
:13:44. > :13:49.Turkey been the country that convicted the most. It is an
:13:49. > :13:53.interesting aftermath on the war on terror. I am flying to New York at
:13:53. > :13:57.the weekend and you can easily get a flight this weekend because
:13:57. > :14:01.nobody wants to fly on the anniversary. We will come on to why
:14:01. > :14:08.you are flying to New York. We have cleverly found a story which
:14:08. > :14:12.connects to the reason. Not just shameless plugging, there is a link.
:14:12. > :14:17.The papers again, quite a few stories about this new book which
:14:17. > :14:22.claims testosterone was to blame for the banking crash. George
:14:22. > :14:27.Osborne is hosting a reception at Number 11 for the Matthew Hancock
:14:27. > :14:32.who have written a book, Masters at nothing and how the crash will
:14:32. > :14:37.happen again unless we understand human nature. They say the
:14:37. > :14:41.dominance of men in the financial sector led to too much risk-taking
:14:41. > :14:46.and drove the world economy over a cliff. And I think Christine
:14:46. > :14:50.Lagarde said, if it had been a lean and sisters and knock the brothers,
:14:50. > :14:55.it would never have happened. Next week, coming up the film of my book,
:14:55. > :15:00.which is about a woman hedge fund manager in the city. Tonight don't
:15:00. > :15:05.know how she does it. In the film Piers Brosnan turns to Sarah
:15:05. > :15:09.Jessica Parker and he says, women just make better Investment
:15:09. > :15:12.Managers. So 10 years after the book was written, the issues of
:15:12. > :15:19.women in the city, George Osborne now lending his name to a campaign
:15:19. > :15:29.to get 30% of board directors to be women. It is timely. And Sarah
:15:29. > :15:31.
:15:31. > :15:37.This is also a film topic really. The papers are covered with
:15:37. > :15:42.pictures of the beautiful Gwyneth Paltrow, who is promoting her
:15:42. > :15:47.latest film, a medical thriller. which everybody knows, a
:15:47. > :15:53.catastrophe film about a global virus. Yes, she plays patient zero
:15:53. > :15:57.or something and she ends up with hatch of her head being cut off for
:15:57. > :16:02.an autopsy. She said she quite likes the gory aspect. Apparently
:16:02. > :16:09.all the critics were coming out of the screening and nobody wanted to
:16:09. > :16:16.touch their hands. On a more homely or local note you have a story
:16:16. > :16:22.about a maternity unit. This is in the Sunday Mirror, who are running
:16:22. > :16:26.a campaign for a fair deal for midwives. Babies are dying because
:16:26. > :16:33.we have a grave shortage of midwives. This journalist spent 24
:16:33. > :16:37.hours in a maternity unit in which five babies died. Midwives are
:16:37. > :16:40.horrendously overstretched. If we take as a barometer of our society
:16:40. > :16:47.how much care we take of the most vulnerable, babies who are coming
:16:47. > :16:51.into the world, mothers are not given enough attention to give
:16:51. > :16:55.birth properly, a huge rise in the number of C-sections and anticipate
:16:55. > :17:01.duerls are going wrong. It's a really strong piece. The Government
:17:01. > :17:10.came to power promising 4,500 more midwives of whom we have I think
:17:10. > :17:17.none. It is more unusual to have a friend who has an uncomplicated
:17:17. > :17:21.birth than one who doesn't. I had an epidural and think couldn't put
:17:21. > :17:28.nit properly. At first they put nit properly and I thought, "Thank
:17:28. > :17:33.goodness" and I was in agony. Nobody noticed for five hours.
:17:33. > :17:38.preparation for your time in Tripoli I would have thought.
:17:38. > :17:48.Exactly. Because we only cover serious stories we have to finish
:17:48. > :17:55.with Pippa's bottom, is that right? This is in Bedfordshire, it was the
:17:55. > :18:01.Queen's Head, but then it became Pippa's Posterior. But local people
:18:01. > :18:11.were upset about it. A quote from a local resident, "We don't want
:18:11. > :18:12.
:18:12. > :18:21.disgraceful pictures of ladies's posterior s on our signs." And this
:18:21. > :18:25.Friday is apparently Pippa Middleton's Bottom Appreciation Day.
:18:25. > :18:32.This is the show on which you get the news which really matters.
:18:32. > :18:36.Thank you both. Now on to the weather. Unfortunately in Britain
:18:36. > :18:40.summery means it will be raining frogs, icebergs offshore and
:18:41. > :18:44.plagues of boils. Liam Dutton is in the weather studio with further
:18:44. > :18:49.details. Thank you Andrew. Good morning. We
:18:49. > :18:54.can forget summer for the week ahead. Very autumnal, bringing
:18:54. > :19:00.outbreaks of rain, and the winds picking up. For most it is a cloudy
:19:00. > :19:08.start. Some places turning brighter. Others holding on to rain. Central
:19:08. > :19:13.and eastern England, outbreaks of rain. Brighter for a time in the
:19:13. > :19:16.west. Rain returns to south-west England and Wales and the wind
:19:16. > :19:20.picking up. Feeling cool. Temperatures firmly fixed in the
:19:20. > :19:24.teens. Overnight tonight there'll be another band of rain running
:19:24. > :19:28.north and east across the UK, locally heavy. Showers for Wales
:19:28. > :19:32.and south-western England but not a particularly cold night for many of
:19:32. > :19:35.us. Temperatures staying in double figures. Monday, a breezy if not
:19:35. > :19:40.windy day for England and Wales. There'll be sunshine and showers
:19:40. > :19:43.around too. Those could be heavy, particularly for northern England.
:19:43. > :19:48.But for Scotland and Northern Ireland largalities of cloud, the
:19:48. > :19:54.odd shower there. Largely dry. Temperatures around 17-18.
:19:54. > :20:04.Tuesday, an autumnal day. Wet and windy for all parts of the UK.
:20:04. > :20:05.
:20:05. > :20:07.Heavy rain spilling eastwards. The Education Secretary, Michael
:20:07. > :20:10.Gove, once promised a "superb new school in every community". Not
:20:10. > :20:13.something which can be delivered overnight, of course. But the first
:20:13. > :20:16.wave of the new free schools are opening this week. Whether they
:20:16. > :20:19.measure up to Mr Gove's ambitions will take time to judge. Centrally
:20:19. > :20:22.funded, outside local authority control, the schools have a lot of
:20:22. > :20:24.freedom over what they teach and how they teach it. But their
:20:24. > :20:31.critics say free schools are an ideological distraction. Michael
:20:31. > :20:35.Gove is with me now. Lots to talk about on free schools but I know
:20:35. > :20:38.that you silt for ar English seat but you are Scottish and you are a
:20:38. > :20:44.Conservative and therefore I must ask you about this interesting
:20:44. > :20:48.Sunday Telegraph story. Tories set to disband in Scotland, saying that
:20:48. > :20:53.the name Conservative may go in Scotland. Is this something that
:20:53. > :21:00.you recognise or would welcome? Well, it is a while actually since
:21:00. > :21:03.we've had in the same sentence the words exciting intellectual debate
:21:03. > :21:09.and Scottish Conservatives. The Scottish Conservative Party is
:21:09. > :21:13.where the action is now in terms of opposition to the SNP. Why are they
:21:13. > :21:17.abolishing themselves then? Well, inevitably when you've got a
:21:17. > :21:21.newspaper as el gently composed as the Sunday Telegraph they will put
:21:21. > :21:26.a bit of hype into the headline. We are not talking about the
:21:26. > :21:32.disillusion of the Conservatives north of the border. Only one of
:21:32. > :21:38.the leadership candidates, a bright guy, Murdo Fraser, look at the fact
:21:38. > :21:41.that there are more folk that have Conservative values who vote for
:21:41. > :21:44.the Conservative Party. One of the things I've learnt as a politician
:21:44. > :21:47.from Scotland but representing an English constituency is that the
:21:47. > :21:51.reality of devolution means that you should allow the party in
:21:51. > :21:55.Scotland to determine its own destiny. Critically we do need to
:21:55. > :21:59.have an effective force north of the border challenging the danger
:22:00. > :22:03.of separatism that we get from the SNP, and making sure you have a
:22:03. > :22:06.party that's championing high education standards, lower taxes
:22:06. > :22:11.and the broad set of values that the majority of mainstream Scotland
:22:11. > :22:15.would like to see championed in opposition to a high-taxed social
:22:15. > :22:18.assist SNP. So you could see a different party, not the
:22:18. > :22:23.Conservative Party, not the Scottish Conservatives but
:22:23. > :22:27.something called something entirely different in Scotland, with no
:22:27. > :22:32.doubt lots of Scottish Conservatives inside it? It is a
:22:32. > :22:36.decision for the Scottish Conservative Party. What shoot the
:22:36. > :22:41.name be? By definition given it is their decision it would be wrong
:22:41. > :22:45.for me to say, "I'm your fairy godfather and this is the name I'm
:22:45. > :22:50.bestowing on you." On the right of the spectrum of Scotland we are
:22:50. > :22:53.seeing a revival intellectually and individually led by Murdo Fraser
:22:53. > :22:58.and other impressive politicians. I think we should welcome the fact
:22:58. > :23:02.that it's the Conservative Party north of the border as it is the
:23:02. > :23:07.Conservative Party in England where the action is. Is this just
:23:07. > :23:12.rebranding? No, what you are seeing in Scotland is an examination of
:23:12. > :23:18.the policies, we have a majority SNP Government potentially
:23:18. > :23:21.threatening the union, we need action. How does it help to break
:23:21. > :23:26.up the Conservative and Unionist Party then? If you look at what
:23:26. > :23:29.Murdo Fraser is saying, he wants to put the argument for the United
:23:29. > :23:33.Kingdom in the context of the changes that the SNP are attempting
:23:33. > :23:39.to make and in the context of a devolutionary settlement. You've
:23:39. > :23:42.got to ask tough questions about what we can do to better put the
:23:42. > :23:46.message for the majority of people in Scotland who are, as we know,
:23:46. > :23:50.having grown up there, keen to be part of the United Kingdom, keen to
:23:50. > :23:54.make devolution work, but keen, above all, to make sure that
:23:54. > :24:00.economic growth returns and we get the educational reforms in Scotland
:24:00. > :24:04.that we are enjoying in England. You said you weren't the fairy
:24:04. > :24:10.godmother of the Conservatives but you are the godfather of the
:24:10. > :24:16.schools in England. 24 free schools are starting up, a tiny number to
:24:16. > :24:21.start with. Is it the case that these schools are going to be
:24:21. > :24:25.obliged to mirror the social make- up or pattern of children in their
:24:25. > :24:28.area? There will they have to have the same proportion of children on
:24:28. > :24:34.free school meals as other schools around them? No, they are going to
:24:34. > :24:38.do better in most cases. What we've seen so far with free schools is
:24:38. > :24:42.they've been overwhelmingly located in the most disadvantaged areas and
:24:42. > :24:48.in many cases they've exceeded, even though they've only been set
:24:48. > :24:53.up in the last year, the number of children from kiss advantaged homes.
:24:53. > :24:58.Take Toby Young's West London Free School, it has more people eligible
:24:58. > :25:02.for free school meals than the rest of the borough. Nearly two thirds
:25:02. > :25:06.are in Labour areas. More than half are in the poorest parts. Are you
:25:06. > :25:11.going to put rules and limits on them from the centre or are they
:25:11. > :25:15.free to do that? They are free. the freedom aspect of it, they are
:25:15. > :25:21.free to teach broadly speaking what they want, in terms of a wide
:25:21. > :25:28.curriculum and the rest of it. They don't have to have teachers who are
:25:28. > :25:33.actually trained as teachers. What about schools that perhaps go down
:25:33. > :25:38.idealogical routes? What about schools that decide that Darwinism
:25:38. > :25:42.is all nonsense and they are going to teach Cretanism? What about
:25:42. > :25:48.schools that are Islamic and while staying just about within the law
:25:48. > :25:53.preach very hard core Islamist values to union children, are they
:25:53. > :26:00.going be allow? I've been crystal clear we should not have schools
:26:00. > :26:04.set up by extremists, whether Christian or Islamic
:26:04. > :26:08.fundamentalists or outrageous organisations. We've said up to
:26:08. > :26:13.monitor anyone who comes forward with a proposal for extremism. It
:26:13. > :26:17.is more rigorous than any previous Government department has been. In
:26:18. > :26:24.the last Government we had money going to extremist groups, as we
:26:24. > :26:29.now know from a review of the money allocated which was supposed to
:26:29. > :26:32.fight terrorism. Using MI5 I read? Correct. We've been working with
:26:32. > :26:35.people who've been in the intelligence services in order to
:26:35. > :26:39.ensure that there is no-one from the wrong sort of background
:26:39. > :26:42.involved in education. And, shy add, not just with the free schools.
:26:42. > :26:46.There have been one or two disturbing cases with existing
:26:46. > :26:49.state schools where people have been trying to subvert them. I'm
:26:49. > :26:53.passionate about science and I'm determined to make sure our country
:26:53. > :26:56.becomes more cohesive. As a result, I've said that we will not sign any
:26:56. > :26:58.funding agreements with these organisations. More than that, we
:26:58. > :27:08.are reviewing the science curriculum, the National Curriculum
:27:08. > :27:11.overall, to make sure there is no space for the teaching of
:27:11. > :27:17.whackoidal theories and I want money spent on people who are
:27:17. > :27:23.seeking to help the poorest. We've got a school open ing in Bradford,
:27:23. > :27:28.an amazing guy who whose dad was a bus conductor. Children from Muslim
:27:28. > :27:32.and other backgrounds will now have the chance to go to great nuefrts
:27:32. > :27:36.an area deprived of great schooling for far too long. Sounds like a
:27:36. > :27:39.great story but to really change the system you need hundreds of
:27:39. > :27:49.these schools. It is going to be very hard for you to do that if
:27:49. > :27:49.
:27:49. > :27:55.people are not able to make profits out of running schools. Are you ide
:27:55. > :28:01.yo logically opposed to people coming into this market to do the
:28:01. > :28:06.same here? If so, why? I'm a practising ma tist not an ideolog.
:28:06. > :28:09.I don't have op opposition to involving any organisation that is
:28:09. > :28:14.going to improve our education. However, we don't need profit-
:28:14. > :28:20.making organisations involved at the moment as we have organisations
:28:20. > :28:24.that are philanthropic. Are there enough people coming into the
:28:24. > :28:28.market fast enough to make change without making a profit? There are
:28:28. > :28:33.24 schools opening after only a year and a bit of our coalition
:28:33. > :28:37.Government. It took Blair, great man though he was, five years to
:28:37. > :28:43.get the same number of academies. Margaret Thatcher and John Major
:28:43. > :28:47.didn't have that number of city technology colleges after 9 years.
:28:47. > :28:51.You've elegantly moved off the question of academies, which are
:28:51. > :28:57.different. It is said that the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Nicholas
:28:57. > :29:02.Clegg, has said he will not accept free schools if there is any kind
:29:02. > :29:08.of profit motive involved and that you have had to back down and allow
:29:08. > :29:11.him that concession. Nick Clegg and I are agreed on this. The
:29:11. > :29:14.Conservative manifesto said we didn't need to have profit at the
:29:14. > :29:18.moment. Nick doesn't believe we need to have profit at the moment
:29:18. > :29:23.and we don't. And in the future? Well, we are in a coalition now and
:29:23. > :29:28.we are working to ensure we get more free schools. We've had more
:29:28. > :29:34.than 280 applications for the next round. I'm expecting we'll have
:29:34. > :29:38.significant numbers of free schools. The real barrier is not profit
:29:38. > :29:41.making. It is planning laws that we have at the moment which restrict
:29:42. > :29:45.the necessary growth, both of the education sector and also of the
:29:46. > :29:50.new homes that we need. That's why the planning reforms that Eric
:29:50. > :29:56.Pickles is putting forward are so important. It is why it is so
:29:56. > :30:06.regrettable that some people can't see the wood for the trees. Shire
:30:06. > :30:07.
:30:07. > :30:12.Normally when you have planning issues you have Tories and Lib Dems
:30:12. > :30:17.seeking advantage. Saying we will stand up for this part of the shire.
:30:17. > :30:20.A coalition is a golden opportunity to create the sort of planning
:30:20. > :30:25.reform that means not only can we have more environmentally sensitive
:30:25. > :30:29.planning, we can have more homes and more schools. I must ask you
:30:29. > :30:33.about one of the other things which is discipline in schools. He had
:30:34. > :30:38.said the regime has changed, the world has changed and the notion
:30:38. > :30:43.teachers can exert no physical involvement with children has gone?
:30:43. > :30:48.Totally. But does this mean? For instance a teacher sees two
:30:48. > :30:53.children fighting, now the teacher can go and physically separate the
:30:53. > :30:57.children, I presume? What if one of the children is fighting back, is
:30:58. > :31:02.the teacher allowed to take the child and pushing up against a wall
:31:02. > :31:07.to restrain him? Decides on that kind of thing? The critical
:31:07. > :31:11.question is, I presume you can restrain them at the moment. In all
:31:11. > :31:15.too many cases people don't. saying under the new racing, the
:31:15. > :31:21.teacher will be able to push the children decide? They certainly
:31:21. > :31:25.will. What I'm asking is the exact amount of physical restraint used
:31:25. > :31:30.by the teacher is going to be something argued about. It may end
:31:30. > :31:34.up in court. How will that be resolved? At the moment the problem
:31:34. > :31:39.is that there are far too many occasions teachers believe they
:31:39. > :31:44.should exercise physical restraint and they are not able to. And the
:31:44. > :31:48.natural common sense restraint we would use as an adult, isn't
:31:48. > :31:52.capable of being deployed. The last Government was going to bring in
:31:52. > :32:00.provisions which meant any time there was physical restraint, the
:32:00. > :32:05.hat to be bureaucratic records. Now of course, you cannot engage in a
:32:05. > :32:09.physical abuse which will be criminal in any context. Use common
:32:09. > :32:13.sense is what you're saying? restoration of commonsense. Thanks
:32:13. > :32:18.for joining us this morning. Now to Libya were the new
:32:18. > :32:22.leadership has said they were laid siege to those areas still under
:32:22. > :32:27.control of pro Gaddafi forces and they have given those forces until
:32:27. > :32:37.Saturday to surrender peacefully. Colonel Gaddafi himself remains a
:32:37. > :32:38.
:32:38. > :32:42.fugitive and there have been conflicting reports on where he is.
:32:43. > :32:48.We strongly believe Gaddafi and his sons, apart from the two who have
:32:48. > :32:52.already moved to Algeria, all the other sons are still in Libya. And
:32:52. > :32:57.they are in that region between Sirte and sat there in the south.
:32:57. > :33:01.What happens if and when he is caught? Will it be the Libyans
:33:01. > :33:06.putting him on trial in Libya or will the international criminal
:33:06. > :33:10.court be involved possibly in Libya as well? Our understanding is the
:33:10. > :33:15.ICC will only put Colonel Gaddafi on trial for crimes committed over
:33:15. > :33:22.the last six months. As we know, he is responsible for horrific
:33:22. > :33:26.catalogue of crimes committed over the last 42 years, which he stood -
:33:26. > :33:32.- should stand for an answer for. He can only answer for those in a
:33:32. > :33:37.proper trial in Libya itself. Colonel Gaddafi and his sums
:33:37. > :33:42.offered to give up now, how would the transitional council react? If
:33:42. > :33:46.he wanted safe passage to another country for instance, is that kind
:33:46. > :33:51.of deal still available or has the time passed? I think the time has
:33:51. > :33:56.passed for that. This was offered to him months ago. Three or four
:33:56. > :34:00.months ago, and he did not take it up. Also it is going to be
:34:00. > :34:06.difficult for him and his sons to find a safe haven or a country who
:34:06. > :34:10.will take them. Neighbouring countries like Algeria, Chad, have
:34:10. > :34:14.made it clear they won't allow Gaddafi or his sons or any of his
:34:14. > :34:23.top aides to come into their countries. And if they do they will
:34:23. > :34:30.probably hand them over. The ICC has issued two warrant arrests for
:34:30. > :34:34.his son, Saif Al-Islam, Colonel Gaddafi and one of his top aides.
:34:34. > :34:39.If they are apprehended they will be arrested and treated humanely.
:34:39. > :34:44.They will be kept safe and they will have to face a trial an answer
:34:44. > :34:47.for all of the crimes they have been responsible for. How would a
:34:47. > :34:52.Libyan court do with Colonel Gaddafi, would he be jailed or
:34:52. > :34:57.would he be executed if he was found guilty? That would be up to a
:34:57. > :35:01.court in due time, but I can us your youth the court will be just
:35:01. > :35:05.and will meet all international standards from human rights
:35:05. > :35:09.organisations and other organisations and the UN will be
:35:09. > :35:13.allowed to monitor things. It will be a fair trial, something Colonel
:35:13. > :35:18.Gaddafi has never offered any Libyans who criticised him over the
:35:18. > :35:21.last 42 years. There are many problems for the newly Libyan
:35:21. > :35:27.authorities, not least getting money back into people's hands,
:35:27. > :35:33.getting money back into the banks. How is it going? It is going quite
:35:33. > :35:38.well, the crucial decisions have been made and requested the need to
:35:38. > :35:44.on freeze assets and pay money back so they can start spending it on
:35:44. > :35:51.salaries, food, fuel, health care, medicine, humanitarian aid. Britain
:35:51. > :35:54.have been very helpful. Britain started releasing a total sum of
:35:54. > :35:59.1.86 billion of Libyan currency which it held back six months ago
:35:59. > :36:03.and did not send to Colonel Gaddafi, wisely. Now Britain has already
:36:03. > :36:09.started sending this to Libyan currency and this is going to be
:36:09. > :36:13.very, very handy. It is already in circulation in the Libyan central
:36:13. > :36:17.bank and it will be used to pay salaries straight away. There has
:36:17. > :36:21.been a bit of confusion about whether countries which have helped
:36:21. > :36:24.overthrow Gaddafi like France and Britain will get special
:36:24. > :36:31.preferential deals when it comes to oil, or whether it will be an open
:36:31. > :36:35.and transparent process. Can you clear up that confusion? Andrew,
:36:35. > :36:40.the new Libya is going to be a Democratic Libya. It is going to be
:36:40. > :36:47.all about transparency, accountability and fur practice and
:36:47. > :36:50.competitiveness. In that sense, any contracts will be awarded based on
:36:51. > :36:54.transparent processes and mechanisms. That means any
:36:54. > :37:00.contracts it shall be awarded based on merit and competitiveness and
:37:00. > :37:04.not on any political favouritism. Finally, you have set out a clear
:37:04. > :37:09.timetable for the move to Democratic elections, but Libya has
:37:09. > :37:13.only had one election in its history. It does not have a history
:37:13. > :37:18.of Democratic structures and political parties. How will you be
:37:18. > :37:24.able to create those parties and those structures? Obviously, people
:37:24. > :37:27.will have to be educated and educate themselves very quickly. We
:37:28. > :37:33.need a Democratic culture to start taking shape and take root. But his
:37:33. > :37:37.true, for the last 42 years we never had political parties. Libya
:37:37. > :37:43.has never experienced voting, they don't know what a ballot-box looks
:37:43. > :37:47.like. We have a transition period of 20 months and we think it is
:37:47. > :37:53.sufficient to allow people to understand how they can set up
:37:53. > :37:58.political parties and debate and resolve things peacefully. I think
:37:58. > :38:02.people are looking forward to practise this right. Political
:38:02. > :38:06.participation has been denied to Libyans for a long time. Everybody
:38:06. > :38:11.is keen and eager to participate in the political process through
:38:11. > :38:16.peaceful means and that is through elections and voting and so on.
:38:16. > :38:21.have a very busy and exciting time ahead, thanks for joining us.
:38:21. > :38:25.The latest piece in the jigsaw of Labour memoirs arrives with the
:38:25. > :38:30.publication in the Sunday Times of the first official extract of
:38:30. > :38:35.Alastair Darling's time as it Chancellor of the Exchequer. But
:38:35. > :38:39.his 1000 days as Chancellor were to prove unimaginably testing as he
:38:39. > :38:45.bought the fires of the banking crisis and the recession. And then
:38:45. > :38:51.there was Gordon Brown as well, which the relationship became so
:38:51. > :38:55.fraught which led to dysfunction in the Government at the top. Alastair
:38:55. > :38:59.Darling joins me now. Before we talk about the book directly, the
:38:59. > :39:03.other Libyan related story in the papers are allegations the Labour
:39:03. > :39:07.Government, which you are part of at the time, was doing some secret
:39:07. > :39:11.deal with Colonel Gaddafi to free the Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset
:39:11. > :39:18.Ali al-Megrahi. That has caused an enormous international storm, as
:39:18. > :39:23.you know. It is shown the Government must have been worried
:39:23. > :39:26.about Colonel Gaddafi's reaction if he wasn't freed. Although we
:39:26. > :39:32.haven't got any clear evidence anything particular happened
:39:32. > :39:36.afterwards. What is your view of this? There is no doubt, from the
:39:36. > :39:40.British Government's point of view, we wanted to bring Gaddafi in from
:39:40. > :39:46.the cold. At that time it was thought it was going to be possible.
:39:46. > :39:49.There was no doubt Gaddafi wanted Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi out. But
:39:49. > :39:54.this hangs on the willingness of the British Labour Government doing
:39:54. > :39:57.a deal with a Scottish Nationalist Government and anyone who knows
:39:57. > :40:02.anything about Scottish politics will know there is such a visceral
:40:02. > :40:08.dislike between the two. The idea there was some collaboration is
:40:08. > :40:14.nonsense. It is true to say the British Government wanted
:40:14. > :40:17.Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi at. It is true to say Alex Salmond fancied AA
:40:17. > :40:21.wander onto the international stage. The whole thing ended in tears,
:40:21. > :40:25.Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi is still with us and was and at death's door.
:40:25. > :40:30.There is no doubt at the time, I can understand there was no other
:40:30. > :40:35.way to try to bring Gaddafi under control. They were trying to bring
:40:36. > :40:38.him in from the cold. It did not work, and it now looks finished.
:40:38. > :40:44.Talking about warm relationships between the Scottish politicians
:40:44. > :40:48.takes us on to your own books. The picture you portrayed over the
:40:48. > :40:52.relationship between yourself and Gordon Brown, you had known him for
:40:52. > :40:58.a very long time but it started in a chilly way and got worse very
:40:58. > :41:02.fast, to the point where I think in your 2009 Budget, days before you
:41:02. > :41:06.were due to stand up and House of Commons, you did not have a budget?
:41:06. > :41:13.First of all this book is essentially about the banking
:41:13. > :41:17.crisis which led to an economic crisis and I wanted to describe how
:41:17. > :41:21.we handle that. But there is a political overlay, because the
:41:21. > :41:26.relationship between myself and Gordon got progressively worse. In
:41:26. > :41:30.2009 we had this argument about what you do about the deficit. But
:41:30. > :41:34.I could not tell the story without having to explain. The object
:41:34. > :41:38.lesson here is, for any Government to operate effectively, there has
:41:38. > :41:43.to be complete unity at the top, especially between the Chancellor
:41:43. > :41:46.and the Prime Minister. It isn't the first relationship that went
:41:46. > :41:52.wrong, Margaret Thatcher and Nigel Lawson. These things have happened
:41:52. > :41:59.before. This is crucial because you and he had a fundamental
:41:59. > :42:03.disagreement about the seriousness of the situation? He was livid
:42:03. > :42:06.about use saying it was the worst recession in 60 years. It wasn't
:42:06. > :42:11.just a disagreement, it was going to affect everything in terms of
:42:11. > :42:18.your future planning on tax, spending on the rest of it?
:42:18. > :42:22.frustration is, we could have got through this, we could have charted
:42:22. > :42:25.a political way through it. Actually, we did get some kudos
:42:25. > :42:30.from the fact we managed to stop the banking system from collapsing.
:42:30. > :42:34.We could have dealt with the recession. BM point is, you have
:42:34. > :42:38.done all this, you have to get it your borrowing down. Ignoring the
:42:38. > :42:42.problem is as bad as the present Government's policy which seems to
:42:42. > :42:48.be squeezing the life out of the economy. We could have come through
:42:48. > :42:53.this, we didn't. Why not? Because there was a disagreement at the
:42:53. > :42:57.very top. I was at one with Gordon on this, we have to stop the
:42:57. > :43:04.banking system collapsing we had to put money into the economy. The
:43:04. > :43:08.results of course, like any other economy like -- that has high
:43:08. > :43:13.levels of borrowing, the disagreement was how to get it back
:43:13. > :43:19.down. I thought we could halve it over a four year period. We have to
:43:19. > :43:22.say to people this is what we will be doing less, and he disagreed.
:43:22. > :43:28.only such what you call the forces of hell on you? That was after my
:43:28. > :43:34.interview with the Guardian three years ago. Making it clear that
:43:34. > :43:38.there was this disagreement, how unpleasant was that? I relish
:43:38. > :43:42.attacking Tories, and then attacking me, it is politics. But
:43:42. > :43:46.when you're a lot are doing it to you, it is not new in politics but
:43:46. > :43:50.it left a mark on me you cannot erase. Gordon Brown wouldn't
:43:50. > :43:57.actually have the argument with you face-to-face? We had lots of
:43:57. > :44:02.arguments, very healthy arguments. That's fine, what I do mind it is
:44:02. > :44:06.when you have got people briefing all over the place that you have
:44:06. > :44:09.made a fool of yourself, your days are numbered and you have the
:44:09. > :44:13.judgment wrong. Describe the decision-making system, or the lack
:44:14. > :44:20.of a system when you were trying to get agreement on what you both
:44:20. > :44:25.thought about the economy and way you're going? As I said, throughout
:44:25. > :44:29.2008 argues parted. Everything eyesore into 1008. It too was
:44:29. > :44:33.heading for a meltdown. The banking system was freezing up. If that
:44:33. > :44:37.happens, it is only a matter of time before the economy goes as
:44:37. > :44:42.well. It was happening all over the world. He took the view I was being
:44:42. > :44:46.too cautious. I am naturally cautious. Every Treasury in the
:44:46. > :44:50.world is cautious. He thought the recession would be over in six
:44:50. > :44:58.months? He took the view I had been misled by the advice I had received
:44:58. > :45:04.and I was exaggerating it. The Guardian was one of three, ice at
:45:04. > :45:08.the same thing. There was a disagreement then. We were pretty
:45:08. > :45:12.much at one on the banking crisis. What happened? In practical terms
:45:12. > :45:15.what happened? He would expect if there was a disagreement between
:45:15. > :45:19.the Chancellor and the Prime Minister, the Cabinet would sit
:45:19. > :45:28.down, thrash through these things I knew would come as a collective
:45:28. > :45:32.Government to a decision? It wasn't There is history here, in that when
:45:32. > :45:38.Tony Blair became the leader in the 1990s, and the Labour had been out
:45:38. > :45:42.of power for a long, long time, we badly needed some strong Government,
:45:42. > :45:44.almost dictatorship, and that's what we got. Gordon and Tony
:45:44. > :45:50.together reformed the Labour Party, but unfortunately as the Government
:45:50. > :45:55.went on, that decision-making process changed. As I say in the
:45:56. > :45:59.book, there are a number of issues, whether it was on tuition fees,
:45:59. > :46:09.conflicts and so on, where a Cabinet discussion would have
:46:09. > :46:15.benefited it. This book is full of mea culpas. One big one is I should
:46:15. > :46:22.have forced this issue on to the Cabinet table. This was all done by
:46:22. > :46:28.early morning or late-evening ad hoc meetings which ended quickly.
:46:28. > :46:33.Indeed. I'm not interested in the sort of kiss and tell political
:46:33. > :46:36.story. It is incidental to my story. The far bigger picture, and the one
:46:36. > :46:41.where I think any political party needs to draw a lesson, you need to
:46:41. > :46:45.be united at the top but you also need a credible economic policy. If
:46:45. > :46:50.you don't have a credible economic policy you were simply not at the
:46:50. > :46:55.races. Our problem was it was so blindingly obvious to the outside
:46:55. > :47:01.world that the two of us, Gordon and I, were at odds, that it
:47:01. > :47:06.hampered things. I have to say that, collectively, you weren't fit to
:47:06. > :47:16.govern. I think we could have done a being job than we did. Can I pick
:47:16. > :47:20.up on the "we" there. Everybody is talking about Gordon and yet the
:47:20. > :47:26.rest of you were grown up, adult, powerful political players why. Did
:47:26. > :47:30.you not go in, not necessarily and get rid of him but say, "You've got
:47:30. > :47:35.to change, you can't carry on like this?" Was he fright something
:47:35. > :47:42.There were lots of discussions like that. With limb? You have a
:47:42. > :47:46.discussion with somebody with a tempestous relationship and they
:47:46. > :47:50.say they'll change but two days later you are back where you were.
:47:50. > :47:55.If you want the criticise us correct collectively, perhaps we
:47:55. > :47:59.should have done something. As I say in the book, why did I do it?
:47:59. > :48:06.I'm afraid for me, despite everything, and if Gordon is
:48:06. > :48:11.listening to this, he may find this difficult to believe, but I had a
:48:11. > :48:17.loyalty to him, and we go back a long, long way. This is very
:48:17. > :48:21.unpleasant. Frankly for the wider audience, and I hope people when
:48:21. > :48:26.they read the book will think of the bigger issues still with us
:48:26. > :48:31.today. I want to talk about the Governor of the Bank of England,
:48:31. > :48:35.Mervyn King. You considered at one point not reappointing him as
:48:35. > :48:40.Governor and you felt that his understanding of what was going on
:48:40. > :48:44.in some of the big banks was poor? Back in 2007 when Northern Rock hit
:48:44. > :48:48.us, there were two problems with the Bank of England. One, I don't
:48:48. > :48:54.think the bank had anywhere near an adequate understanding of what was
:48:54. > :49:02.going on in the banking system, despite the fact it had
:49:02. > :49:06.responsibility and had done since 1997. All energy went on the
:49:06. > :49:10.monetary policy side. I disagreed with what I thought needed to be
:49:10. > :49:16.done. I felt it essential to get money into the system to stop it
:49:16. > :49:21.freezing. He was more concernedant solvency of the banks, which of
:49:21. > :49:26.course the two are related. We did not deal with this as effectively
:49:26. > :49:30.as we should. Had there been a better candidate you would have
:49:30. > :49:35.dealt with it wouldn't you? Later on clearly you had disagreements
:49:35. > :49:39.about a macro policy and you felt he had come pretty close to
:49:39. > :49:44.crossing the line and coming out on the Conservative side of the
:49:44. > :49:47.argument over tax and spend. bigger complaint was more about
:49:47. > :49:51.what he was saying about the regulation of the banks, which was
:49:51. > :49:55.the Conservative policy not the Government's policy. I do think
:49:56. > :50:01.governors of the bank need to be terrible before they openly cross
:50:01. > :50:09.the Government of the day. He could see we were going and he felt
:50:09. > :50:13.emboldened, I think, to say what he wanted. This is a live topic at the
:50:13. > :50:17.moment. There seems to be a big argument inside the coalition about
:50:17. > :50:22.whether or not to enforce the break-up of the banks into retail
:50:22. > :50:27.banks and investment banks. What do you think should be happening now?
:50:27. > :50:31.Well, the whole basis on which this argument is being conducted is
:50:31. > :50:36.false. The idea that you could let an investment bank collapse and
:50:36. > :50:41.walk away from it in times of crisis is nonsense. That's what the
:50:42. > :50:48.American Government did with Lehman Brothers and that presip at a timed
:50:48. > :50:54.the worst crisis ever -- precipitated the worst crisis ever
:50:54. > :50:58.seen. Sit wrong for Vince Cable to be pressing for the break-up of
:50:58. > :51:02.banks? If it is about banking activities that's a useful tool. It
:51:02. > :51:07.is not going to stop it happening again. If you are going to make
:51:07. > :51:14.those changes in ring-fences, frankly you should get on with it
:51:14. > :51:20.and not leave it until 019. If you impose it now on banks, then you
:51:20. > :51:27.will so hit bank profits that you endanger what stultering economic
:51:27. > :51:31.recovery you've got. This isn't going to stop the problem, it will
:51:31. > :51:34.be a useful tool. Secondly, anything you do in rorging banks at
:51:34. > :51:38.the same time as it will require them to hold more capital and so on,
:51:38. > :51:43.lit mean there is less money to lend. You need to be aware of that.
:51:43. > :51:49.The third thing, again I mentioned this in my book, we are the world's
:51:49. > :51:52.largest financial centre. That brings huge risks but huge
:51:52. > :51:56.opportunities. We need to be careful about doing something which
:51:56. > :52:00.doesn't solve the problems that we face, and then the double whammy is
:52:00. > :52:03.you start losing banks because they won't go tomorrow morning or
:52:03. > :52:07.anything like that but they start moving away. And the Bank of
:52:08. > :52:12.England, you say, is an old- fashioned autocratic institution
:52:12. > :52:14.which badly needs radical reform? Yes, the present Government wants
:52:14. > :52:19.to make the Bank of England not just responsible for interest rates
:52:19. > :52:23.but for the supervision of banks. Where its track record is mixed.
:52:23. > :52:29.And also it has got this overall responsibility for trying to iron
:52:29. > :52:34.out if peaks and troughs of the economic cycle. That's a lot of
:52:34. > :52:37.things to invest in one person. I think the governance of the Bank of
:52:37. > :52:42.England needs to change. Legislation needs be reconstruct
:52:42. > :52:51.sod the Governor has to be the first among equals. You need a
:52:51. > :52:55.board of directors. Not an advisory economy. Not a court. It is an
:52:55. > :53:00.adornment in every sense. If you are going to do this reform, for
:53:00. > :53:04.goodness sake do it properly. do you think about the current
:53:05. > :53:09.economic outlook? Bad news from America at the moment. I'm very
:53:09. > :53:12.pessimistic now. Our economy was growing for several months after we
:53:12. > :53:16.left office. I think the present Government's policy of almost
:53:16. > :53:20.squeezing the life out of the economy is going to be very bad for
:53:20. > :53:25.us, especially when you look at what's happening in Europe, where
:53:25. > :53:33.you have the same austerity approach imposed on Europe. The
:53:33. > :53:41.picture in America, as you say, is very missed. We have to rediscover
:53:41. > :53:48.the spirit of 2009, where countries have the meet urgently, yes to get
:53:48. > :53:51.your deficits down, but for goodness seek we need growth.
:53:51. > :53:54.you still speak to Gordon Brown very much? Of course, and I hope
:53:54. > :53:59.we'll continue to speak to each other. I'm not interested in living
:53:59. > :54:03.in the past. Indeed. Alistair Darling, thank you for joining us.
:54:03. > :54:06.And now over to Naga for the news headlines. Alistair Darling has
:54:06. > :54:11.said there was a permanent air of chaos and crisis when Gordon Brown
:54:11. > :54:15.was Prime Minister. Speaking on this programme he referred to a
:54:15. > :54:18.deeply unpleasant atmosphere in Government and said perhaps he and
:54:18. > :54:22.other Cabinet members should have done something about Mr Brown's
:54:22. > :54:32.leadership. The next news on BBC One is at
:54:32. > :54:32.
:54:32. > :54:35.midday. MPs say independent counselling
:54:35. > :54:43.would cut the number of women having terminations. Should we make
:54:43. > :54:53.it harder to get an abortion. Stand-off at Dale Farm. Is evicting
:54:53. > :54:57.
:54:57. > :55:00.Now, Snow Patrol are one of the most successful British rock bands
:55:00. > :55:04.of the past decade. Their albums sell millions of copies here and
:55:04. > :55:06.all over the world, and their music has featured on the soundtracks of
:55:06. > :55:10.several popular American TV series. Not bad, considering they once
:55:10. > :55:12.played a gig to just 18 people. We're going to hear the first live
:55:12. > :55:15.TV performance of the new single from their sixth album, Fallen
:55:15. > :55:21.Empires, in a moment. But first, a quick word with their frontman,
:55:21. > :55:25.Gary Lightbody. You started off at a time when you could still get
:55:25. > :55:27.money from the big record companies and you could sell albums. It's a
:55:28. > :55:32.difficulty world now. What about the young bands trying to make it,
:55:32. > :55:37.as you did? We started off at a time when yes it was possible to
:55:37. > :55:43.make money from music, but we didn't for a decade. So we were
:55:43. > :55:51.struggling. Right now, we had two chances. We had a first career of
:55:51. > :55:55.ten years of playing to 18 people. In some very shady places. And we
:55:55. > :56:02.had a second career when we released Final Straw and it took
:56:02. > :56:06.off for us. Not too many people get two bites of the cherry. This is a
:56:06. > :56:15.slightly more retro feel to the album, is that right? Not so much.
:56:15. > :56:21.We've got, we've let our electronic side out and the songs are bigger
:56:21. > :56:24.and bolder. This is called Calling Out In The Dark? It is a tribute to
:56:24. > :56:27.Alistair Darling, which we'll be hearing in a second.
:56:27. > :56:30.That's almost it for this morning. Thanks to all my guests. Do join me
:56:30. > :56:34.again at the same time next week, when it's the 10th anniversary of
:56:34. > :56:37.9/11. We'll be reflecting on that event, and all that flowed from it.
:56:37. > :56:46.But we leave you now with Snow Patrol and their new single,
:56:46. > :56:49."Calling Out in the Dark". Goodbye. # It's like we just can't help
:56:49. > :56:59.ourselves. # 'Cause we don't know how to back
:56:59. > :56:59.
:56:59. > :57:07.down. # We were called out to the streets.
:57:07. > :57:17.# We were called out into the towns. # And how the heavens, they opened
:57:17. > :57:39.
:57:39. > :57:41.# Like arms of dazzling gold. # With our rain-washed histories.
:57:41. > :57:43.# This is your life, this is your time.
:57:43. > :57:53.# We are listening and we're not blind.
:57:53. > :58:09.
:58:09. > :58:13.# This is your life, this is your # I was called out in the dark.
:58:13. > :58:15.# By a choir of beautiful cheats. # And as the kids took back the
:58:15. > :58:25.parks. # You and I were left with the
:58:25. > :58:36.
:58:36. > :58:39.streets. # Show me now, show me the arms
:58:39. > :58:43.aloft. # Every eye trained on a different
:58:43. > :58:51.star. # This magic, this drunken
:58:51. > :58:53.semaphore. # And I-I-I-I.
:58:53. > :58:56.# We are listening, and we're not blind.