:00:08. > :00:11.Good morning. The party conference Good morning. The party conference
:00:11. > :00:14.season, as reliable as the falling leaves, over the
:00:14. > :00:19.will be talking to the Labour and to the Prime Minister but
:00:19. > :00:23.we are here in Birmingham for the Liberal Democrats. A city, of
:00:23. > :00:27.course, with a great political tradition. Nick Clegg, the Lib Dem
:00:27. > :00:34.leader, told his party that it was here that Lloyd George, the great
:00:34. > :00:37.Liberal leader of the past, was nearly killed by a rioting,
:00:37. > :00:47.murderous mob. He only escaped by being dressed up by a policeman.
:00:47. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:16.Nothing like that will happen to Clegg this week, we think.
:01:16. > :01:19.But these are tough times, with hard But these are tough times, with hard
:01:19. > :01:22.decisions for anyone in government. The economy is in trouble,
:01:22. > :01:27.unemployment's very high and Europe is fighting hard to keep its
:01:27. > :01:29.currency. Plans to kick-start the economy are to be announced
:01:29. > :01:33.Liberal Democrat ministers today I am going to be talking
:01:33. > :01:36.about all of that, about in politics and about his relations
:01:36. > :01:42.with the Conservatives. He has already told the Lib Dems here that
:01:43. > :01:46.his job is to be awkward, not make life easy for David Cameron.
:01:46. > :01:50.But this morning we also have a remarkable interview with one of the
:01:50. > :01:56.men who created and shaped Labour. The political strategist,
:01:56. > :01:59.Philip Gould, who says himself he is in the final phase of his long
:01:59. > :02:03.battle with cancer. He talks with extraordinary candour about the
:02:03. > :02:06.illness and about how it has caused him to re-examine every aspect
:02:06. > :02:08.his professional and his personal life.
:02:08. > :02:12.We hear also from the great We hear also from the great
:02:12. > :02:15.cricketing hero, Imran Khan, who is hoping that his Movement for Justice
:02:15. > :02:23.party will break through in Pakistan's next election,
:02:23. > :02:25.will have music from the soul singer Beverley Knight.
:02:25. > :02:29.Beverley is a local woman and she is Beverley is a local woman and she is
:02:29. > :02:33.a flag carrier for British of that, plus our usual paper
:02:33. > :02:37.this morning with the Lib Dem President, Tim Farron, and The Times
:02:37. > :02:43.sketch writer, Anne Treneman. But first the news from Riz Lateef in
:02:43. > :02:45.London. the Treasury Danny Alexander will
:02:45. > :02:49.today announce measure to say kick-start the economy. They will
:02:49. > :02:53.include a �500 million fund to deliver key infrastructure projects
:02:53. > :02:56.and create jobs. In a speech to Liberal Democrat conference in
:02:56. > :03:00.Birmingham, Danny Alexander will also announce the creation of more
:03:00. > :03:04.than 2,000 jobs at the Inland Revenue. The roles are designed to
:03:04. > :03:08.help staff clamp down on tax avoidance and evasion by the rich.
:03:08. > :03:11.Barack Obama is to propose a new minimum tax rate for anyone
:03:11. > :03:15.in the US who earns more than million dollars in a year. The White
:03:15. > :03:19.House says it will be part of a series of measures to be announced
:03:19. > :03:20.tomorrow, aimed at reducing America's budget deficit. Rugby
:03:20. > :03:24.America's budget deficit. America's budget deficit.
:03:24. > :03:28.Republicans have said they will Republicans have said they will
:03:28. > :03:32.oppose any plans to raise taxes. Pakistan's Prime Minister
:03:32. > :03:37.promised more help for flood victims in Sindh. Monsoon rains have
:03:37. > :03:42.submerged buildings, make of thousands of people homeless.
:03:42. > :03:46.Hundreds have been killed. Here, prayers will be said
:03:46. > :03:50.South Wales today in memory of the four men who died in the
:03:50. > :03:53.Gleision Colliery. An appeal fund set up yesterday to help
:03:53. > :03:56.bereaved families has already �20,000.
:03:56. > :04:00.The number of people kill indeed yesterday's crash at an air race in
:04:01. > :04:04.the United States has risen to nine. Eight of the dead were spectators
:04:04. > :04:08.who were struck when fighter plane crashed into their
:04:08. > :04:18.grandstand at the event in Reno, Nevada. A number of
:04:18. > :04:19.That's it, now back to Andrew in Now, front pages as usual. Here is
:04:19. > :04:19.Now, front pages as usual. Here is Now, front pages as usual. Here is
:04:19. > :04:24.That's it, now the Sunday Times, like a lot
:04:24. > :04:28.papers leading with the Liberal Democrats: Cable clamps down on top
:04:28. > :04:32.pay. That's lots of new inspectors, and so on, for people trying
:04:32. > :04:34.avoid the top rate of tax. The Sunday Telegraph, however, has
:04:34. > :04:39.story about Blair and Gaddafi's secret meetings, suggesting
:04:39. > :04:44.there was a lot more to the release of the Lockerbie bomber than we
:04:44. > :04:47.thought. It also says that Cameron aims to put the "great"
:04:47. > :04:51.Britain. The Independent on Sunday also has
:04:51. > :04:54.that that crackdown. 2,200 new tax
:04:54. > :04:58.inspectors to target the says. Here is the Observer: we will
:04:58. > :05:07.fight ruthless Tory extremists, the Lib Dems. Getting very excited
:05:07. > :05:12.Sunday Express. Thieves strip the UK Sunday Express. Thieves strip the UK
:05:12. > :05:18.bare. That's just power lines, a of theft of going on around the
:05:18. > :05:22.country. And finally let's have the Mail on Sunday: two days' pay to
:05:22. > :05:27.party on your tax. That's not a newspaper offer, that's a story
:05:27. > :05:34.about civil servants taking extra paid holidays to attend an
:05:34. > :05:39.alcohol-fuelled sports event. Farron and Anne Treneman but
:05:39. > :05:43.for coming in to review the papers. Where will you start? Utterly
:05:43. > :05:48.staggered, Andrew, that picked out the Lib Dem conference.
:05:48. > :05:52.This is an interesting story I think it kind of puts a slight
:05:52. > :05:56.opinion about our problems, like. The Liberal Democrats have cut
:05:56. > :06:00.tax for the lowest paid and anybody on a lower and middle-income will
:06:00. > :06:04.get - already getting a tax cut. That tax will get bigger as the
:06:04. > :06:07.Parliament goes on and yet the headline here in the Observer
:06:07. > :06:13.that our tax plan will benefit the rich and not help the poor. This is
:06:13. > :06:16.a think-tank, isn't it? Yes, PPR. And that's what they think?
:06:16. > :06:20.Allegedly it is what they think I am sure they do think it.
:06:20. > :06:24.kind of true in a way. Well, it does, obviously if you are
:06:24. > :06:28.earning money then you pay tax. you are earning above a certain
:06:28. > :06:31.amount. If there is a tax cut at the bottom of course it works its way
:06:31. > :06:35.up. What the Lib Dems made sure of all the same is that you don't get
:06:35. > :06:39.that tax cut if you are on the 40 50% rate. So yes, it does help
:06:39. > :06:43.people on middle-incomes and we are not ashamed of that but obviously it
:06:43. > :06:46.helps people on low incomes as well. The point that is fair and it
:06:46. > :06:52.need to be tackled, that is made here, is that if you are not earning
:06:52. > :06:56.the minimum wage and if you are not working at all, or if indeed you are
:06:56. > :06:59.on part-time work and therefore earning perhaps less than 10,000 a
:06:59. > :07:03.year then this doesn't help you. OK. Having said all that,
:07:03. > :07:06.majority of people in that position are pensioners, they've got the
:07:06. > :07:10.biggest rise in 30 years, not that it feels like it at the moment.
:07:10. > :07:16.have chosen a related story here? Yes, I love this story because
:07:16. > :07:26.Lib Dems, you do love to hate the rich, don't you, and so now there's
:07:26. > :07:26.
:07:26. > :07:31.a new team being announced here called a Affluence Team. I love this
:07:31. > :07:35.idea that they will drive round in Bentleys looking for other people in
:07:35. > :07:39.Bentleys to - I just love the idea of this team. I never know if this
:07:39. > :07:44.stuff ever, ever happens. You read about it and think - It needs to.
:07:44. > :07:49.The point is, very quickly, title is laughable, I agree.
:07:49. > :07:53.do you mean "very quickly"? Well, yes, but the point is this. A lot of
:07:53. > :07:57.newspapers get wound up about people claiming benefits that they
:07:57. > :08:02.shouldn't be doing but there is much more money lost every year from
:08:02. > :08:05.wealthy people who find clever and not necessarily legal ways of
:08:06. > :08:10.avoiding tax. We were told this at the last Liberal
:08:10. > :08:13.conference, it was announced then and reannounced now. It's a funny
:08:13. > :08:16.atmosphere because talking to people last night, this is a
:08:16. > :08:20.for years and years has loved hate the Tories and now suddenly
:08:20. > :08:26.wake up in bed with them and you are not quite sure whether to have a go
:08:26. > :08:30.at them, mock them publicly. Clegg had a good joke about you
:08:30. > :08:34.having five Cabinet ministers or if you include Ken Clarke. Indeed.
:08:35. > :08:40.You are not quite sure how to deal with these people
:08:40. > :08:43.you? All of us have a difficulty getting used to coalition. It's not
:08:43. > :08:47.normal, not in England anyway. The Lib Dems probably have least trouble
:08:47. > :08:50.with it of all the parties but it's still difficult because here we are,
:08:50. > :08:54.most normal grown-up compromise and get on with people
:08:54. > :08:59.they don't agree with. Yes. And politicians don't. It's a new thing.
:08:59. > :09:03.So yes, there are psychological difficulties, shall we say. Are you
:09:03. > :09:09.saying politicians aren't grown up? Mostly not, no. Most don't behave
:09:09. > :09:12.like it. Your colleague Matthew Paris, Anne, had a good
:09:12. > :09:15.week where he said this conference season the public aren't
:09:15. > :09:20.going to want to see political points scoring in the old way.
:09:20. > :09:27.Things are too serious actually for that. Yes, well, dream on is all I
:09:27. > :09:31.can say. We have to tax the rich. Whatever. Yes. You know, attack
:09:31. > :09:34.makes news, obviously. Yes, consensus isn't interesting and it's
:09:34. > :09:39.a shame because it is actually we need. Above all, if you got one
:09:39. > :09:41.thing out of Nick Clegg this week, what would you want to hear, Tim?
:09:41. > :09:44.Again I think distinctiveness the Liberal Democrats but we can't
:09:45. > :09:49.be so distinctive that we undermine the coalition because
:09:49. > :09:56.line is, even if we don't get credit for it, it's important the country
:09:56. > :10:00.is stably governed. So distinction about tax and also human rights?
:10:00. > :10:05.Distinctive but not too distinctive. Distinctive and not destructive, if
:10:05. > :10:10.that's the right way of putting it. We want to be spiky and ourselves,
:10:10. > :10:15.we don't want people to think we've become something we are not.
:10:15. > :10:18.Human Rights Act? It's totemic. It's not about rescuing us from the
:10:18. > :10:21.mess we are in financially but it about defending the kind of
:10:21. > :10:24.we are. The background to this is that a lot of people, including a
:10:24. > :10:28.lot of Conservative ministers, think that the Human Rights Act is getting
:10:28. > :10:32.in the way of dealing with the aftermath of the riots, dealing with
:10:32. > :10:35.criminal people, dealing with problem families, and so on, and
:10:35. > :10:39.there's a review of it to see bits testify could be stripped out -
:10:39. > :10:43.bits of it could be stripped out? There is. There is a lot of rot for
:10:43. > :10:47.one thing. If we have to join anything for those problems it is an
:10:47. > :10:51.US litigation-style culture which would happen with or
:10:51. > :10:54.Human Rights Act but the Act is not there to protect nefarious
:10:54. > :10:58.characters, it's there to put black and white traditional British
:10:58. > :11:02.liberties. If we are to go around rightly I think supporting those,
:11:02. > :11:06.for example, involved in the Arab spring and trying to uphold
:11:06. > :11:09.desire for justice and human rights, how ludicrous for us to be
:11:09. > :11:15.undermining our own at home. So that's a red line? I would say so,
:11:15. > :11:19.yes. Absolutely. Yes. I have a line of my own. This is a survey
:11:19. > :11:23.reported in the Sunday Times. I think that Lord Ashcroft actually
:11:23. > :11:28.has something to do with it so the results aren't perhaps that
:11:28. > :11:32.surprising but hilarious surprising but hilarious asking what
:11:32. > :11:38.people thought of various party leaders. David Cameron has a picture
:11:38. > :11:46.of lion here, the only person who has come out with anything
:11:46. > :11:48.resembling leadership. The picture of him is a bull in a china shop.
:11:49. > :11:54.Poor Nick Clegg, he has a puppet here and then a little kitten.
:11:54. > :11:58.is the picture that they think Nick Clegg. Yes. They asked people
:11:58. > :12:02.phrases that they associated Nick Clegg and one of them was
:12:02. > :12:08."drowning man". That's not very nice. It's very bad. Speaking
:12:08. > :12:14.not very nice, there's a piece about you, Tim: Lib Dem leadership
:12:14. > :12:18.plotter. Yes. It's a gay smear story. I'm trying to find the
:12:18. > :12:21.accuracy in there because I am not leadership plotter and the gay smear
:12:21. > :12:26.thing is very - this is an old story about a story that wasn't a story.
:12:26. > :12:32.It's the kind of thing that you guys have to put up with the whole time?
:12:32. > :12:36.It is. In January of this year paperback home printed a
:12:36. > :12:40.a person put away for two years for blackmailing an anonymous person
:12:40. > :12:44.over their secret gay life. Some very pleasant person put it
:12:44. > :12:47.the lobby that that person was That is not the case. This two-day
:12:47. > :12:52.flurry in January/February and then they found out unpleasantly who
:12:52. > :12:55.person was so they went quiet and for some reason the Mail decided to
:12:55. > :12:59.unearth it now. It's distressing it's life. Over to something
:12:59. > :13:02.more scary, however, Anne. been worried all morning about
:13:02. > :13:07.particular story which is in Observer? Well, this is about
:13:07. > :13:13.spiders. I don't know, I just there are spiders everywhere,
:13:13. > :13:18.literally. There are. Coming of the woodwork. It is. There are
:13:18. > :13:22.spiders under the woodwork. There was a damp spring, some more pollen,
:13:22. > :13:29.so more insects, so more baby spiders lived and now we have all
:13:29. > :13:39.these incredibly fat female pregnant spiders in the woodwork apparently.
:13:39. > :13:43.People are ringing up the British Tarantula Society, about these
:13:43. > :13:48.pregnant British spiders, there are just so many of them. I found that
:13:48. > :13:53.fascinating. That will produce more birds which will eat more spiders,
:13:53. > :14:01.and by evolution, that will produce more ornithologists. Darwin
:14:01. > :14:05.have approved of that. It's all good. The next story? The headline
:14:06. > :14:15.is in the Sunday Times: the stuff. It's basically a literary
:14:16. > :14:20.
:14:20. > :14:23.story predicated on an interview with Robert Llewellyn, about the
:14:23. > :14:26.Arctic Monkeys who went over the head of the record companies and
:14:27. > :14:31.appealed straight to the this is the same thing where you
:14:31. > :14:37.have a set-up in Notting Hill you can pitch your work, your book,
:14:37. > :14:41.to the public directly. I think it seemed superbly democratic without
:14:41. > :14:44.going through the kind of prejudices of editorial process. And the
:14:44. > :14:48.boring stuff of people writing cheques to you either.
:14:48. > :14:52.possibly what you will miss out as well. OK, speaking of cheques
:14:52. > :14:56.and bouncing cheques, bouncing Greeks, the other huge story, of
:14:56. > :15:06.course, is the European economic crisis, fiscal crisis. Yes, I
:15:06. > :15:10.absolutely love this picture, which is spartans. We think so. There's
:15:10. > :15:14.a great quote, and this basically is quite depressing reading so
:15:14. > :15:19.don't want to be - it's just everything is sort of going down the
:15:19. > :15:23.pan basically. But there's a man here who is appropriately called Dr
:15:23. > :15:26.Doom, an economist - Is he really called Dr Doom? That's his
:15:26. > :15:30.nickname. He has another name. That's a shame. I wish he was
:15:30. > :15:33.Dr Doom. He is basically saying they have to do something. They
:15:33. > :15:37.finally have to do something. So Arsenal fans will also be
:15:37. > :15:44.this morning when they read some obscure team - I can't remember
:15:44. > :15:49.their name. I am a Blackburn Rovers name and we have quadrupled the
:15:49. > :15:52.number of our points this season by winning a game yesterday. Allegedly
:15:52. > :15:59.we had three shots and scored four goals. My point is this, about the
:15:59. > :16:02.media, even when we win, we are not interesting. It's "Arsenal lose
:16:02. > :16:07.again", nothing about our team who beat them. Thank you very
:16:07. > :16:10.indeed. Pretty fresh and parky morning as I came on that
:16:10. > :16:14.studio. Not heavy rain here in Birmingham, let's find out what's
:16:14. > :16:18.Thank you very much. For some of us Thank you very much. For some of us
:16:18. > :16:21.it was chilly but sunny morning. Others have already seen
:16:21. > :16:25.showers. Like yesterday it will be story of sunshine and
:16:25. > :16:30.through the day. Although Andrew said the rain not heavy at times,
:16:30. > :16:34.those showers are going to be pretty torrential. We could even see the
:16:35. > :16:38.odd rumble of thunder. A few changes this afternoon with showers slowly
:16:38. > :16:41.fading towards the west. Temperatures all in all a bit
:16:41. > :16:47.disappointing, even with a bit of sunshine many highs of around
:16:47. > :16:51.18C. Clearer skies overnight. Another chilly night tonight but we
:16:51. > :16:55.will see thicker cloud and rain arriving in Northern Ireland by
:16:55. > :16:59.dawn. Tomorrow in the west, and rain then moving
:16:59. > :17:02.Western Scotland, northwest and Wales and the southwestern
:17:02. > :17:05.corner. The best of the sunshine by the afternoon holding on to East
:17:05. > :17:08.Anglia and the southeast, so as a result here 20C but where we
:17:08. > :17:14.more cloud and the rain, temperatures more like 16 to 17C.
:17:14. > :17:16.More details on the weather for the week ahead by going online.
:17:16. > :17:17.Many thanks. Pakistan is a deeply Many thanks. Pakistan is a deeply
:17:17. > :17:19.troubled country, currently troubled country, currently
:17:19. > :17:23.Many thanks. Pakistan is a suffering again from terrible
:17:23. > :17:28.flooding. It's also known for a great deal of political
:17:28. > :17:32.and violence. It was once a partner of the West on
:17:32. > :17:36.so-called war on terror but now distrusted by the Americans
:17:36. > :17:43.Osama Bin Laden was discovered there. Imran Khan has just published
:17:43. > :17:47.A Personal History of his country in which he is scathing about policy in
:17:47. > :17:52.Welcome. This is a book which says Welcome. This is a book which says
:17:52. > :17:55.in essence that Pakistan has pretty much the most corrupt
:17:56. > :18:02.political system in the world. That's a pretty high claim?
:18:02. > :18:11.this was going to happen, Andrew, because in the 2008 elections an
:18:11. > :18:14.amnesty was given to 8,000 of the biggest criminals in the country and
:18:14. > :18:17.not only were they given amnesty, they were allowed to contest
:18:17. > :18:19.elections and most are in right now. So when you
:18:19. > :18:29.criminals running a corruption goes through the roof,
:18:29. > :18:30.
:18:30. > :18:33.and it's not even corruption, it's plunder right now. You famously
:18:33. > :18:36.created a free cancer hospital, have done a lot of that kind of
:18:36. > :18:41.philanthropic work and you hope that your political party's time
:18:41. > :18:44.have come but you are starting from a very small base, if I can put it
:18:44. > :18:50.politely, and you are up against people with huge amounts of money
:18:50. > :18:53.and an old system of barons passing out seats? The last election we
:18:53. > :18:56.contested was nine years back. Since nine years the other parties have
:18:56. > :19:02.gone down in Pakistan, because of corruption. All the parties are in
:19:02. > :19:06.power in different provinces. As corruption rises, as discontent
:19:06. > :19:11.rises, there's insurgency throughout our western borders, there's target
:19:11. > :19:16.killing in Karachi, there are floods, so there's a total
:19:17. > :19:21.disillusion. Of the people from these old political parties, and so
:19:21. > :19:24.according to all the polls my is now the number one party in
:19:24. > :19:30.Pakistan and I'm confident that this will be the biggest upset
:19:30. > :19:34.Pakistan because the young people all want a change. We are sitting
:19:34. > :19:37.in Birmingham, a lot of people in Britain, particularly in
:19:38. > :19:41.the Midlands and so on, is it important for a politician like you
:19:41. > :19:46.to come over to Britain and talk to Pakistanis here as well, as part of
:19:46. > :19:52.the campaign? Yes, it is, there are 6 million overseas
:19:52. > :19:57.Pakistanis. Their GDP is equal to 180 million Pakistanis, and they
:19:57. > :20:00.find not only us political parties but, whenever you want, when you
:20:00. > :20:04.the system there, the governance system, the biggest investment will
:20:04. > :20:11.come from overseas Pakistanis just like in China and in India. It
:20:11. > :20:15.the expatriate community, the overseas Chinese and Indians who
:20:15. > :20:18.helped in their development. So hope lies in the overseas Pakistanis
:20:18. > :20:22.who when you fight corruption, fix the system, that's where the real
:20:22. > :20:28.money is going to come. Let's about the aftermath of the death
:20:28. > :20:32.Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. When we talked in the programme to President
:20:32. > :20:35.Obama he was pretty withering and angry about the
:20:36. > :20:40.government's involvement in all of this or his suspicions about that.
:20:40. > :20:44.What's the feeling now in Pakistan, because it was a very bruising
:20:44. > :20:47.moment for both countries. Humiliating for Pakistanis.
:20:47. > :20:52.Humiliating that a country has lost 35,000 people dead, a country
:20:52. > :20:59.had nothing to do with 9/11, there were no Pakistanis
:20:59. > :21:03.Al-Qaeda was in Afghanistan. Then the economy has lost $70 billion.
:21:03. > :21:06.Total US aid is about $20 billion Total US aid is about $20 billion
:21:06. > :21:10.and 3.5 million refugees, internally displaced people. So a country that
:21:10. > :21:17.has given such sacrifices. In the end, for us Pakistanis, whatever the
:21:17. > :21:27.government role we don't know, to be called by the CIA chief either
:21:27. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:31.Pakistan was incompetent, or they were complicit, I think that was the
:21:31. > :21:38.most humiliating thing for Pakistanis. And David Cameron here
:21:38. > :21:44.said Pakistan was facing both ways. Exactly. That's why people
:21:44. > :21:50.it is a wrong war, we should not have gone into it. As western
:21:50. > :21:54.forces pull back in Afghanistan, doesn't that simply push the fight
:21:54. > :21:56.against the remaining part of Al-Qaeda into
:21:56. > :21:59.You have these drone attacks, and so on, at the moment? We have drone
:22:00. > :22:05.attacks but they are totally counterproductive. All they do
:22:05. > :22:09.they kill suspected militants, their family, but these are quickly
:22:09. > :22:13.replaced by more people. Every year the violence has grown. These have
:22:13. > :22:16.failed to - these are failed policies. They failed in
:22:16. > :22:20.Afghanistan, they are failing in Pakistan. The answer lies in a
:22:20. > :22:26.political settlement. There is no military settlement. Yes. Your
:22:26. > :22:30.critics say that you come across very well and all the rest of it but
:22:30. > :22:36.you have become quite a tough Islamist yourself. Anyone who just
:22:36. > :22:41.does not go along with the US is either with us or against us.
:22:41. > :22:46.You've got to become either a right wing or a hardliner. I objected to
:22:46. > :22:51.this insane war on terror. You don't fight a war on terror with bombs and
:22:51. > :22:55.F16s and helicopter gunships in villages where innocent people are
:22:55. > :23:02.getting killed many it's just exacerbating the situation. So
:23:02. > :23:06.anyone who pulls this policy becomes an Islamist. This is a ridiculous
:23:06. > :23:10.thing. The issue will never settled militarily. Any expert now
:23:10. > :23:15.knows, anyone, your exambassador says exactly the same thing. All
:23:15. > :23:18.right, Imran Khan, thank you very much indeed for joining us today.
:23:18. > :23:22.Now, from the general election Now, from the general election
:23:23. > :23:25.adulation of "I agree with Nick", to having dog dirt shoved through his
:23:25. > :23:29.letterbox, it has been to say the least a rollercoaster
:23:29. > :23:32.Deputy Prime Minister. This week one newspaper claimed he had promised
:23:32. > :23:37.his wife he would only serve one term. Whether that's true or not,
:23:37. > :23:42.has got some huge decisions ahead of him as the coalition struggles with
:23:42. > :23:47.hard times. Nick Clegg joins Good morning. Morning. Let's talk
:23:47. > :23:53.to start with about hard times. We have the euro crisis. Yes. All
:23:53. > :23:57.around us. The latest figures suggest that we may either have a
:23:57. > :24:02.completely flat period in the economy, or things might actually
:24:02. > :24:06.return to recession. So talk us through just how bad you think, how
:24:06. > :24:10.worried you are about the economy first of all. I think the
:24:11. > :24:14.is very serious. We are a very open economy, we are hugely dependent
:24:14. > :24:18.what happens around us, on the eurozone. 40% of
:24:18. > :24:21.and more go into the eurozone, so if things are spluttering there,
:24:21. > :24:25.they are very seriously, then of course that affects us massively,
:24:25. > :24:29.which is why it's hugely in our national interest to make sure that
:24:29. > :24:32.the eurozone is strong. But that doesn't mean there aren't things we
:24:32. > :24:36.can do at home. Of course we balancing the books, everyone knows
:24:36. > :24:40.that, we are reducing the burden on businesses, less red tape, less tax,
:24:40. > :24:44.but I think there are more things we can do to create jobs today
:24:44. > :24:48.build for tomorrow. That's why last week I made a speech about how we
:24:48. > :24:51.are giving priority to infrastructure projects. San sand
:24:51. > :24:55.today has talk - Danny Alexander today has talked about
:24:55. > :24:58.being set aside for local infrastructure projects. What does
:24:58. > :25:01.infrastructure mean? Broadband, housing, road, rails. And
:25:01. > :25:04.Cable has been also talking about the need to do that, to really make
:25:04. > :25:08.sure that we foster confidence we can, even though, you are right,
:25:08. > :25:12.the wider context is really tough. I want to come back to the wider
:25:12. > :25:17.context in a minute but there's simple question which is: you are
:25:17. > :25:22.cutting expenditure, taxes high in order to balance the books,
:25:22. > :25:24.so where possibly is the money going to come from for the kind of
:25:24. > :25:28.substantial infrastructure projects that would actually get unemployment
:25:28. > :25:35.down? Let me first - a little of perspective. We as a government
:25:35. > :25:38.are still spending �700 billion a year, that is - hang on - Nobody
:25:39. > :25:42.understands what that means, the trouble. No, the thing is
:25:42. > :25:45.is this ludicrous caricature that because we are balancing the books
:25:45. > :25:50.government can't do anything, that somehow we are turning the clock
:25:51. > :25:53.back to the 1980s or 30s. As proportion of wealth this
:25:53. > :25:56.will be spending more in public spending after all these
:25:56. > :26:00.end of this Parliament than Blair and Gordon Brown were when
:26:00. > :26:03.they came into power so there's a lot that government can still do,
:26:03. > :26:06.not only through direct spending on broadband, on housing, on road, on
:26:06. > :26:09.rail, but some of the We are setting up the first
:26:09. > :26:13.Investment Bank, which is investment bank which takes public
:26:13. > :26:17.money, taxpayers' money, and then gets private investors' money
:26:17. > :26:20.for instance, renewable energy. That makes a big difference in actually
:26:20. > :26:24.creating jobs today but, as I say, building for the future as well.
:26:24. > :26:28.where does the money come from, for these big projects, and how much
:26:28. > :26:31.money will there be? There will be literally billions of pounds of
:26:31. > :26:36.investment, which we had already planned, but what we are
:26:36. > :26:40.is that the ones which stimulate growth most effectively now and
:26:40. > :26:44.help, for instance, employ young people who at the moment can't
:26:44. > :26:47.a job, that they are given priority. Give me some examples.
:26:47. > :26:50.We've already said that we are going to invest hundreds of millions of
:26:50. > :26:54.pounds into superfast broadband. That's a good thing for
:26:54. > :26:59.in the future, but you need to employ people to dig up the roads
:26:59. > :27:03.and actually put in the new cabling and the fibre-optic cables. This is
:27:03. > :27:06.not new money, this is have announced already? Let's be
:27:06. > :27:09.clear. Quite a lot of it is that was already in the system but
:27:09. > :27:13.crucially we will crucially we will actually by
:27:13. > :27:17.2014/15 be spending a little more on what they call capital spending,
:27:17. > :27:25.these big projects, than any previous government. So no
:27:25. > :27:31.money yet? If I can finish, through these new investments, we calculate
:27:31. > :27:35.about �18 billion of new money will go into building, for instance,
:27:35. > :27:38.renewable energy infrastructure during this Parliament. That is not
:27:38. > :27:42.to be sniffed at. Only �3 billion of that is taxpayers' money and what we
:27:42. > :27:45.use, we use that money to then make sure that the private sector brings
:27:45. > :27:48.in other money. Let me give you one other example. There's a regional
:27:48. > :27:52.growth fund, something I sort of preside over in government, which is
:27:52. > :27:57.there to allocate money to businesses who kind of might be
:27:57. > :28:00.thinking of investing in a new bit of kit in the factory floor or
:28:00. > :28:06.opening a new factory unit but a bit of a top-up to do that. We are
:28:06. > :28:10.using this �1.5 billion to do that; that's matching public taxpayers'
:28:10. > :28:13.money with private money common good. Yet you know that out
:28:13. > :28:16.there there are no signs of growth. The private sector is not racing to
:28:16. > :28:19.the rescue as you might hope indeed everyone is looking at
:28:19. > :28:25.global picture and shivering and retrenching, rather than
:28:25. > :28:29.more. Sure. So what else can you do? What about looking again at the
:28:29. > :28:33.tax system for small businesses? What about tearing up some of the
:28:33. > :28:36.old planning rules to make it easier for house builders and other
:28:36. > :28:40.to invest money? As you know, it's very controversial, but we
:28:40. > :28:45.actually saying that we do need to look at these very antiquated
:28:45. > :28:49.planning rules - And you are 100% against the sort of green England -
:28:49. > :28:52.Look, I think some frankly rather misleading claims are being made
:28:52. > :28:55.that we are going to destroy the greenbelt and so on, that
:28:55. > :28:58.people won't have their say. In respects local people will have more
:28:58. > :29:02.of a say. What we is that you can't have a situation,
:29:02. > :29:05.and we are pretty unique in this the developed world, where, if
:29:05. > :29:09.people want to get on with the development, it takes them years
:29:09. > :29:15.years and years and years to get permission. We haven't got years.
:29:15. > :29:18.We've got to get moving as a country because - Sure. Economists
:29:18. > :29:22.about numbers and percentages billions here and there. At the
:29:22. > :29:25.of the day this is about something much more elusive and delicate
:29:25. > :29:29.is just confidence. It's to get people to start building that
:29:29. > :29:32.first house, confidence that the business uses money they've got to
:29:32. > :29:36.create a new job, confidence to households to go out and spend a
:29:36. > :29:39.of money in the high street. OK. That's a delicate thing, it's
:29:39. > :29:43.affected by international circumstances over which we only
:29:43. > :29:46.have limited control, influence but not control, but we
:29:46. > :29:50.can also do things in the way that I've described to boost confidence
:29:50. > :29:55.at home. Let's talk about all to do with confidence
:29:55. > :30:00.rest of it, which is income tax. The Chancellor is looking at whether or
:30:00. > :30:03.not the 50p band of tax not the 50p band of tax actually
:30:03. > :30:07.raises any money at all. If he concludes that this is actually not
:30:07. > :30:13.bringing money into the Exchequer, and presumably putting some
:30:13. > :30:18.off at the top end, is it acceptable for that to go? If we discover that
:30:18. > :30:22.the 50p rate just hasn't raised money from the very wealthiest
:30:22. > :30:26.it was supposed to, clearly to look at other ways - And you
:30:26. > :30:29.not going to stop it going? Let me finish, then I of course think we
:30:30. > :30:32.should look at other ways the wealthiest would pay the amount
:30:32. > :30:35.expected through the 50p rate. This is a debate which isn't just
:30:35. > :30:38.happening in Westminster and political parties in Britain. Look
:30:38. > :30:43.at what President Obama has said. Sure. Overnight. Look at the
:30:43. > :30:47.in Germany, in Italy, in France, across the developed world, everyone
:30:47. > :30:50.accepts as I passionately believe, that when a lot of people on
:30:51. > :30:55.ordinary incomes are really finding it difficult to do the weekly shop,
:30:55. > :30:58.to pay these hugely inflated heating bills this winter, it simply would
:30:58. > :31:01.be incomprehensible to them, whatever the rate rises, to suddenly
:31:01. > :31:05.lower the tax burden on the very wealthiest. I understand that
:31:05. > :31:11.absolutely. What I'm trying to find out is what might then happen. You
:31:11. > :31:15.mentioned last night again the mansion tax. So, if the 50p rate
:31:15. > :31:18.to be dropped, are you would have to be a quid pro quo,
:31:19. > :31:23.something like the mansion tax to replace it? It's unfair on George
:31:23. > :31:28.Osborne for me to try and seek to write budgets now in a television
:31:28. > :31:31.studio. Sure, but the principles of different taxes? The principles are
:31:31. > :31:34.agreed across government and if you look at the budget statement George
:31:34. > :31:36.Osborne himself said going to look at the amount that the
:31:37. > :31:42.50p raises, but at the same are going to look at the way in
:31:42. > :31:46.which the very wealthiest and those in very high value properties pay
:31:46. > :31:49.their fair share so that was agreed across government and clearly these
:31:49. > :31:54.things are linked. Sorry, I just want to be absolutely
:31:54. > :31:59.this before we move on, that you will block, you would stop, any
:31:59. > :32:01.abolition of the 50p rate there was something else which
:32:01. > :32:07.raised money from the top earners? raised money from the top
:32:07. > :32:11.I have two pre-occupations. Firstly, I don't think it is morally or even
:32:12. > :32:15.economically right to unilaterally lower the tax burden on the very
:32:15. > :32:19.wealthiest when we haven't made more progress as I want us
:32:19. > :32:23.lowering taxes for the millions on ordinary incomes. That remains my
:32:23. > :32:26.principal concern. That's the I got written into the coalition
:32:26. > :32:30.agreement that our overriding tax priority was lowering
:32:30. > :32:35.on millions of people on low ordinary incomes. Secondly, and
:32:35. > :32:37.secondly, which is your point, which is that if the 50p does not raise
:32:37. > :32:42.money as we had hoped from the very, very wealthiest, remember
:32:42. > :32:47.the top 1%, not the middle classes, it's the top 1%, then of course
:32:47. > :32:50.need to look, and as the himself has said, we've got to look
:32:50. > :32:55.at other ways to ensure they pay their fair share. So it stays
:32:55. > :33:00.unless there is an alternative; yes or no? It stays unless we can first
:33:00. > :33:03.make more progress tax burden on people on lower and
:33:03. > :33:10.middle-incomes and secondly sure as the Chancellor himself has
:33:10. > :33:12.said, we can find other ways that the wealthiest pay their fair share.
:33:12. > :33:15.Just on tax generally, I think tax Just on tax generally, I think tax
:33:15. > :33:20.and benefits generally, you have one debate which is about the sort of
:33:20. > :33:22.cheats on the benefit system moment bottom and a lot of noise
:33:22. > :33:25.quite rightly quite rightly about how people get
:33:25. > :33:28.out of paying their fair the top. We have to remember that
:33:28. > :33:32.the real pre-occupation should what happens to those millions of
:33:32. > :33:35.people on ordinary incomes, and middle-incomes. They often get
:33:35. > :33:38.overlooked in this debate about what happens, the benefits system at the
:33:38. > :33:41.bottom, the wealthiest at the top. The Liberal Democrats are there
:33:41. > :33:46.really support and be on the side of millions of people who play by the
:33:46. > :33:50.rules, work hard, pay their taxes and are feeling unenormous
:33:50. > :33:55.right now. A lot of Conservatives feel that those very same people,
:33:55. > :34:01.who are often the victims of the riots over the summer, are also
:34:01. > :34:04.furious about the way that criminals get off, about the fact that we
:34:04. > :34:07.can't send people out of the when they've come in here
:34:07. > :34:12.they've committed crimes, are looking more and more at
:34:12. > :34:16.Human Rights Act as something getting in the way. Again, there is
:34:16. > :34:18.a government research being done on the effect of the Human Rights Act
:34:18. > :34:23.to see if parts of that can be removed or watered down
:34:23. > :34:27.with in some other way for what they would say are common sense reasons
:34:27. > :34:31.that most people approve of. Look, anyone, any rational person looking
:34:31. > :34:35.at the people who have gone through the court system after the riots
:34:35. > :34:39.would say that the big problem not the Human Rights Act, it has
:34:39. > :34:43.nothing to do with the Human Rights Act; the big problem is that we have
:34:43. > :34:48.been far too soft on repeat crime this country for far, far too long.
:34:48. > :34:51.Lots and lots of these people actually it now turns out had a
:34:51. > :34:54.long, long criminal record. As as your arm. What has gone wrong is
:34:54. > :34:58.that, despite all the tough talk from Labour, pouring more and more
:34:58. > :35:02.people into the prison system, that has happened is they've come
:35:02. > :35:05.out again, our prisons have become colleges of crime and young
:35:05. > :35:10.offenders of today become hardened criminals of tomorrow. That's why
:35:10. > :35:14.I'm very supportive and excited about Ken Clarke's revolution - You
:35:14. > :35:19.called him a Liberal Democrat minister last night. I think he has
:35:19. > :35:22.got it absolutely right justice. Stop discussions about the
:35:22. > :35:26.Human Rights Act which has to do with the sentences passed. I
:35:26. > :35:29.think you just finished his career off as far as his party is
:35:29. > :35:33.concerned. Probably the kiss death. Let's keep talking about
:35:33. > :35:37.Europe, however. What's the message to those Conservative Eurosceptics
:35:37. > :35:41.who got together in a new organisation, they are talking to
:35:41. > :35:44.Labour Eurosceptics as well and we need to loosen our relationship
:35:44. > :35:47.now with Europe, we need to repatriate powers and they
:35:47. > :35:50.looking forward to a referendum before too long and we get another
:35:50. > :35:56.European Treaty. Sure, what is the strategic national interest for
:35:56. > :36:01.United Kingdom in the European Union? In my view unambiguous,
:36:01. > :36:06.probably the greatest achievement in recent years was ironically enough
:36:06. > :36:09.British achievement. It was British Commissioner, a guy who
:36:09. > :36:11.created the world's largest borderless single market.
:36:11. > :36:15.Margaret Thatcher's government, Conservative government that
:36:15. > :36:19.introduced the single European act that allowed British businesses here
:36:19. > :36:21.in Birmingham, in the Midlands, to invent things, manufacture things
:36:21. > :36:26.and then export them completely freely into the largest consumer
:36:26. > :36:30.market in the world. I personally think that our absolute overriding
:36:30. > :36:37.priority, if you want to protect jobs, communities, families, is to
:36:37. > :36:41.actually deepen and widen that liberal, open, free market right
:36:41. > :36:44.our doorstep. If instead what you do is you indulge in I think a complete
:36:44. > :36:48.distraction, which is sort of creating a top ten hit list of the
:36:48. > :36:51.specific directives you don't particularly like - by the way,
:36:51. > :36:54.there are directives that I don't technically like - you just miss the
:36:54. > :36:57.big picture which is that if eurozone, as I hope they will,
:36:57. > :37:00.stabilise things by basically getting their act together and
:37:00. > :37:04.integrating a bit further in certain ways to really make sure
:37:04. > :37:09.eurozone is a success, the last thing we should do is say: in
:37:09. > :37:14.case we wash our hands will enterprise and we will get out
:37:14. > :37:16.- the whole enterprise. That will destroy jobs and prosperity in this
:37:16. > :37:19.country. I think we should say in run for this we want
:37:19. > :37:22.into the single market which is still not complete. And you still
:37:22. > :37:25.want to join the euro? there is absolutely no question of
:37:25. > :37:28.this country joining the euro, certainly not during this
:37:28. > :37:31.government. To call that impossibility is to put it mildly.
:37:31. > :37:36.Absolutely, but in principle you still in favour of this currency,
:37:36. > :37:40.which is unravelling? No, I will tell you what I am in principle in
:37:40. > :37:45.favour of, people simply recognising geographical reality. We are in the
:37:45. > :37:49.Europe. We are not in Alaska. We are not on the other side of
:37:49. > :37:53.Atlantic. We are not nestled geographically next to China. Europe
:37:53. > :37:57.influences us. Whether you like EU or not it has a massive effect
:37:57. > :38:01.our everyday life and I want us, if you like, to have the kind of
:38:01. > :38:04.bulldog confidence of the British spirit to say, instead of constantly
:38:05. > :38:07.looking for excuses to get out of the game, get in there, shape it,
:38:07. > :38:12.influence it and do so in national interest. What is our
:38:12. > :38:16.plan? How are we going to react if Greece and possibly other countries
:38:16. > :38:20.are forced out of the are facing a dramatically worsening
:38:20. > :38:23.situation there? Look, I really, really hope it won't come to that
:38:23. > :38:29.because that's not only bad for the eurozone, as you rightly imply that
:38:29. > :38:32.has knock-on effects on the banking system across - But if it does?
:38:32. > :38:36.The world as a whole would need it take dramatic measures. It's one of
:38:36. > :38:40.the reasons both in the EU the G8 and G20, we are playing a
:38:40. > :38:44.very active role in saying the has to react in a co-ordinated
:38:44. > :38:47.fashion. We can't simply sit back and say that somehow what's going
:38:47. > :38:53.over there has nothing to do with us. It's all to do with us as well.
:38:53. > :38:58.OK. Your wife, we read, has a from you, that you are going to only
:38:58. > :39:01.serve one term. Is that true? Can I put this mildly? I really wouldn't
:39:01. > :39:05.believe a world you on Sunday. This is the paper that
:39:05. > :39:10.called me a Nazi. They have a bee in their bonnet about the
:39:10. > :39:13.the Liberal Democrats and they come up with drivel every single day. I'm
:39:13. > :39:18.in this because I believe it's the right thing to do. Miriam supports
:39:18. > :39:22.me fully in this and I want to us succeed in the coalition
:39:22. > :39:25.government and beyond. Let me explain why - Before we get there,
:39:25. > :39:28.asked you a very, very clear question. Are you in this for
:39:28. > :39:32.term only or do you intend Liberal Democrat
:39:32. > :39:36.intend to see it through term? Absolutely, I intend to see
:39:36. > :39:40.it well beyond one term, all right? There you go, Daily Mail, wrong.
:39:40. > :39:46.There's a surprise. That's very clear. In the same account, however,
:39:46. > :39:50.we also heard that your party done quite a lot of work on a new
:39:50. > :39:53.coalition agreement that you are going to discuss and negotiate with
:39:53. > :39:56.the Conservatives for the second half of this Parliament. Is that
:39:56. > :40:01.right? Again, that account - I haven't read it but I have been told
:40:01. > :40:04.says two diametrically opposite things. One that we are plotting to
:40:04. > :40:07.negotiate a new coalition and the next, we are plotting to get
:40:07. > :40:10.out of the coalition. Let me tell you what we are actually planning to
:40:10. > :40:13.do and let me be open about this. There's in secret about it. I
:40:13. > :40:17.if you look at what the country has been through over the last few
:40:17. > :40:21.years, the really kind of difficult circumstances we have been through,
:40:21. > :40:26.there are millions of people who want a political party that
:40:26. > :40:30.you can create a strong economy and a fair society, and don't like
:40:30. > :40:34.told that you have to choose between one or the other. That's what
:40:34. > :40:38.Liberal Democrats are about. We are a party of the head and the heart.
:40:38. > :40:41.For a long, long time the left - this is really important, can I
:40:41. > :40:46.finish - the left have said you can look after ordinary families but
:40:46. > :40:50.then you end up bankrupting the economy. The right says you can sort
:40:50. > :40:54.out the economy but let ordinary families. Evening we've got
:40:54. > :40:58.to do both - I think we've got to both. That's political aspiration,
:40:58. > :41:01.what I'm asking about is whether, for instance, your aide, Polly
:41:01. > :41:04.Mackenzie I think her name is, has actually drawn up a list of new
:41:04. > :41:07.things that you want to negotiate with the Conservatives during
:41:07. > :41:12.Parliament for its second half. that true or not true? I haven't
:41:12. > :41:16.seen that list, so I can't tell whether that's true. That's not
:41:16. > :41:21.quite saying it's not true. I no idea, Andrew. It's the Liberal
:41:21. > :41:25.Democrats, come on. I don't control what people do on their desktops
:41:25. > :41:28.every single day. Let me tell you, the government's priority is to
:41:28. > :41:32.deliver the coalition agreement most importantly to rescue
:41:32. > :41:39.repair the economy. Can I just jump in there because you have actually
:41:39. > :41:43.achieved some of the things that you wanted to do - A great deal.
:41:43. > :41:46.your first agreement. Therefore people say it is time to do a second
:41:46. > :41:49.agreement, move to the next and talk about things as parties
:41:49. > :41:54.that you are going to agree. I agree with you and - in a sense
:41:54. > :41:59.the means by which you do this, whether by a list or or there is
:41:59. > :42:03.irrelevant. What do I think is necessary for this government to see
:42:03. > :42:06.through to 2015, of course we are a coalition, we are parties
:42:06. > :42:10.Dorchester identities, that's - different identities and at
:42:10. > :42:13.conference time those identities become even more accentuated but to
:42:13. > :42:16.be a successful government you to be a government with a common
:42:16. > :42:19.purpose and that common purpose is firstly to sort out the economy and
:42:19. > :42:23.secondly, this is certainly my great passion, to make sure
:42:23. > :42:30.same time we give greater opportunity for people to get ahead.
:42:30. > :42:34.What is called in the jargon social mobility. I think that kind of -
:42:34. > :42:37.repair the economy but also a fairer society. The two go together. Is
:42:37. > :42:42.there any part of you, looking the terrible economic circumstances
:42:42. > :42:47.that may be ahead, that thinks actually we do need to go a little
:42:47. > :42:53.slower and cut a little hastily? I think people who
:42:53. > :42:58.advocate that need to think this through. So the answer is no? Does
:42:58. > :43:01.anyone think you will create growth by next Tuesday by ripping up the
:43:01. > :43:06.plan? You would create more unemployment and market panic.
:43:06. > :43:10.The pollster, Philip Gould, was one The pollster, Philip Gould, was one
:43:10. > :43:14.of the key architects of He was recruited in the
:43:14. > :43:19.Peter Mandelson and brought in new ideas, most notably focus groups,
:43:19. > :43:26.asking the public detailed questions about politics to broaden
:43:26. > :43:32.appeal. He was crucial to Tony Blair's election victories. He has
:43:32. > :43:35.just published an analysis of Labour which has long been required
:43:35. > :43:38.reading for politicians of all parties but the past few years have
:43:38. > :43:42.been dominated by a very different battle, against cancer of the
:43:42. > :43:45.oesophagus. Despite gruelling treatment, that cancer has now
:43:46. > :43:49.recurred and he now not recover. I met Philip Gould at
:43:49. > :43:52.his home. I hope you will agree that what follows is a remarkable and
:43:52. > :43:56.rather unusual interview for political programme like this. But
:43:56. > :43:59.first, I asked him about Tony Blair's leadership style. He says it
:43:59. > :44:03.was like "driving down the centre of the road very fast, pushing
:44:03. > :44:13.everything else to one side", but where, I asked, did they really know
:44:13. > :44:18.Tony did believe that values and an Tony did believe that values and an
:44:18. > :44:24.explicit sense of purpose should be kept for the most part quiet. He
:44:24. > :44:28.really did have a Church and State thing on this. He really thought his
:44:28. > :44:37.private spiritual life was over and his public, pragmatic life was
:44:37. > :44:42.over there. So that meant that much of his rhetoric, much of argument,
:44:42. > :44:46.narrative, was focused on the pragmatic rather than the - What's
:44:46. > :44:52.it all for? What's it all for, yes. Now, it is one of the big
:44:52. > :44:56.my book, I think, that this failure. I do think that leadership
:44:56. > :45:01.depends on purpose. I think that individuals depend on purpose,
:45:01. > :45:04.think that politics depend on purpose. I think that in this world
:45:04. > :45:12.that is so chaotic and so disordered, without purpose you
:45:12. > :45:17.lost. It's an essential part of leadership now and I don't think he
:45:17. > :45:21.did that absolutely perfectly. In your diaries, there's the accounts
:45:21. > :45:28.of the arguments, the now famous endless arguments between Gordon
:45:28. > :45:34.Brown and Tony Blair. Yes. Go and on and on, and were clearly so
:45:34. > :45:37.destructive of energy and purpose, and so on? Yes. Was that just an
:45:37. > :45:42.inevitable clash of two very, very different personalities,
:45:42. > :45:45.different world views that was never going to be harmoniously reconciled?
:45:45. > :45:53.I think what happened there was this, that Gordon did believe that
:45:53. > :45:57.he would come to be leader Labour Party and that the supporters
:45:57. > :46:03.around him I suppose believed that even more. They were so close, so
:46:03. > :46:11.close working together. You would go into their office, and you would be
:46:11. > :46:16.met by a kind of a wall of energy. Yes. Piling towards you, and
:46:16. > :46:20.would both be on their computers, there would be papers everywhere,
:46:20. > :46:27.bits of sock, bits of this everywhere, it was a completely
:46:27. > :46:33.chaotic sense, but a sense of huge, huge energy. Tony and Gordon were
:46:33. > :46:43.just remarkable in those days. It was incredible. And they were close
:46:43. > :46:45.
:46:45. > :46:52.too. Increasingly close, I think. So they were almost one person.
:46:52. > :46:57.Certainly felt like brothers to me. And yet there would be only one
:46:57. > :47:04.person and as it went on increasingly it was going to be
:47:04. > :47:09.Tony. I knew it would be Tony. Others knew it would be Tony. But
:47:09. > :47:12.it's hard to tell Gordon because he is on the one hand a very tough
:47:12. > :47:17.individual but a very individual too and it just was too
:47:17. > :47:21.much for him and it grew from there. Can we turn to talk about your
:47:21. > :47:27.cancer. Yes. And how that in many ways meshes with the politics
:47:27. > :47:33.you have been describing. Because you've had three major recurrences
:47:34. > :47:37.but right at the beginning you chose to go private in America. I think
:47:37. > :47:43.later on you came to think that actually the NHS might have been
:47:43. > :47:50.better choice? Yes. That's so. I talk to a lot of people in the
:47:51. > :47:57.and they said: look, if the best place to go is at Sloane-Kettering.
:47:57. > :48:02.In New York? Yes, and the level of quality was good, but then about
:48:02. > :48:09.year or two years later it clearly had returned. So you go up to
:48:09. > :48:14.Newcastle and you are confronted or you meet this excellent surgeon.
:48:14. > :48:18.Yes. Who as it happened had been at school with Tony Blair. Yes.
:48:18. > :48:24.was vehemently pro-NHS, not very keen on southerners, you said, not
:48:24. > :48:28.very keen on private health? No, his position was basically:
:48:28. > :48:31.anti-Southerner, anti-private, anti-New Labour. But the quality of
:48:31. > :48:36.nursing there, the quality of care, the quality of the surgery was
:48:36. > :48:41.outstanding. So in the end the NHS had the best place, not the
:48:41. > :48:45.States? No, the NHS had the place here, for sure. So where are
:48:45. > :48:50.you now in terms of the cancer? Where we are now is this, that we
:48:50. > :48:55.went on holiday with Gail, and this was such an important moment
:48:55. > :49:02.She was packing her stuff weeks in She was packing her stuff weeks in
:49:02. > :49:07.advance. It was so important that we went on holiday for once. And
:49:08. > :49:12.we would go to sort of have and Gail would be saying "Eat more,
:49:12. > :49:17.eat more, eat more", because she knew I was thinning and I was eating
:49:18. > :49:22.it but I saw my weight going down. If your weight goes down, your
:49:22. > :49:28.eating is problematic. I had one or two other symptoms too. So I came
:49:28. > :49:34.back, called the Marsden up, went in for a blood test and they phoned up
:49:34. > :49:37.and said your blood tumour mark has gone up from 5% two or three weeks
:49:37. > :49:42.ago to 58%, and at that point that's it. I knew that was it. I
:49:42. > :49:46.Gail up and she said "That's it", and so we knew. They called us in
:49:46. > :49:50.and they said: look, lymph nodes here, it's in the lymph
:49:50. > :49:55.nodes there, it's going to tin nodes there, it's going
:49:55. > :50:02.nodes there, it's going to continue and you will never get clear of this
:50:03. > :50:08.now. I said: how long to live? Professor Cunningham said "Three
:50:09. > :50:13.months." Then Gail months." Then Gail - the worst case
:50:13. > :50:21.was three months. Gail the best case? And he said "Three
:50:21. > :50:28.months". This time, it was clear. I was in a different place, a death
:50:28. > :50:32.zone, where there was such an intensity, such a power, and
:50:32. > :50:37.apparently this is normal. So even though obviously I would rather
:50:37. > :50:40.be in this position, it is the extraordinary time of my life,
:50:40. > :50:44.certainly the most important time my life. You said an extraordinary
:50:44. > :50:48.thing before about this, which is being in the death zone you would
:50:48. > :50:52.not have chosen this, but you wouldn't want to walk away from it.
:50:52. > :50:55.No, no. And you wouldn't have wanted to die as the person that you
:50:55. > :50:59.were before the recurrence of cancer. No, that was certainly true
:50:59. > :51:05.in the early - it's certainly true that after the first recurrence,
:51:05. > :51:09.had not wish to have died the I was. But when you get to the final
:51:09. > :51:13.stage, the death zone, you are dealing with something which is so
:51:13. > :51:21.intense. I mean, I look out of the window and I feel the intensity. The
:51:21. > :51:28.intensity of my wife, the intensity of my family; that is it the natural
:51:28. > :51:37.place to be. To leave this now, to leave this extraordinary place now,
:51:37. > :51:39.I would not want to do that. This is the final place.
:51:40. > :51:43.And the right place for me at this And the right place for me at this
:51:43. > :51:47.time is to be in the final place. Can I ask you one other
:51:47. > :51:53.about that? Yes. Which is something that your wife Gail
:51:53. > :51:57.to you, that politics, being involved in politics, was somehow
:51:57. > :52:01.connected to your cancer, that the nastiness of politics and the
:52:01. > :52:05.aggression of politics had somehow contributed to your cancer.
:52:05. > :52:10.think that's true. What would have been better for me would have been
:52:10. > :52:15.to have said: I'll do what I can do, which I do quite well, and then just
:52:16. > :52:21.push it back a little bit. Of course, the other side of it is that
:52:21. > :52:29.it's only because I am obsessive and a nut case when it comes to politics
:52:30. > :52:32.that I've done what I've done. What would you say, as, as it were, a
:52:32. > :52:41.testamental thought to Ed and the Labour Party as it is now?
:52:41. > :52:48.I think at one and the same time he has to have a strategy that deals
:52:48. > :52:52.with the hard end of it. I mean, really does have to nail down the
:52:53. > :53:02.economy, and I am sure he will. And make sure we are the party of the
:53:03. > :53:03.
:53:03. > :53:10.economy. He has to nail down responsibility and make us the party
:53:10. > :53:13.of the responsible electorate, and I think he has to.
:53:13. > :53:17.think he has to be tough in the way that he deals with some of these
:53:17. > :53:21.issues. I think that is the combination that wins the election.
:53:21. > :53:24.And it would be a good thing for Labour if thinks brother was able to
:53:24. > :53:31.be alongside him in this journey? Well, I would very much like that
:53:31. > :53:37.and I think what better epitaph for the whole book really, as a book
:53:37. > :53:44.that starts with the angularity and the difficulty with the relationship
:53:44. > :53:52.between two almost brothers, ending in I hope friendship between
:53:52. > :53:57.I think that may well happen. I - I think that may well happen. I -
:53:57. > :54:01.look, I lived under - I was born under a Labour government. And I am
:54:01. > :54:07.determined to die under a Labour government. Obviously will have
:54:07. > :54:15.get a move on, but that is what I want to happen. But I
:54:16. > :54:18.message is: have faith. And try change the world.
:54:18. > :54:21.Philip Gould, whose journey with Philip Gould, whose journey with
:54:21. > :54:24.cancer has changed him in good ways as well as bad. You can see a
:54:24. > :54:30.version of that interview on website. Now back to London with
:54:30. > :54:35.Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg has
:54:35. > :54:41.said he doesn't think it's morally or economically right to get rid of
:54:41. > :54:45.the 50p rate of tax at the moment. He said he would block its abolition
:54:45. > :54:48.until it's replaced with another form of tax on wealthy people such
:54:48. > :54:53.as a property tax. Prayers will be said across South
:54:53. > :54:56.Wales today in memory of the four men who died in the flooded Gleision
:54:56. > :55:02.Colliery. An appeal fund set yesterday to help the bereaved
:55:02. > :55:06.families has already raised �20,000. That's all from me, now back to
:55:06. > :55:09.Andrew in Birmingham. Many thanks. Well, she was born just
:55:09. > :55:12.up the road from here Wolverhampton and got her
:55:13. > :55:17.introduction to gospel music in Church there. Beverley Knight, you
:55:17. > :55:21.are a great standard-bearer for British soul. Thank you.
:55:22. > :55:28.to us why British soul is different from American soul. Well, in terms
:55:28. > :55:32.of what you hear, it's massively influenced by the black diaspora,
:55:32. > :55:38.people coming from Africa with their rhythms and then people like
:55:38. > :55:42.parents coming from the West Indies with the reggae and syncopated
:55:42. > :55:45.rhythms driven heavily by bass so that pretty much weighs up the
:55:46. > :55:49.difference between that and the American sound which doesn't have
:55:49. > :55:52.that back ground. You are going give us something by a British song
:55:52. > :55:54.writer? Absolutely, George Michael. One of the best. We will enjoy that
:55:54. > :55:58.in just a much indeed for now. It is time
:55:58. > :56:02.me to exit, I am afraid. Join us again next week when we are back
:56:02. > :56:05.the usual time of 9.00 when we will be in Liverpool for the Labour
:56:05. > :56:08.conference, talking to the Opposition, Ed Miliband. Until
:56:08. > :56:18.then we leave you with Beverley Knight and George Michael's song,
:56:18. > :56:27.
:56:27. > :56:33.# I've had enough of danger # I've had enough of danger
:56:33. > :56:38.# And people on the streets # I'm looking out for angels
:56:39. > :56:48.# Yeah # Just trying to find some peace
:56:49. > :56:52.
:56:52. > :56:58.# Now I think it's time # You'll let me know
:56:58. > :57:02.# So when you say that you love me # You'll never, never leave me
:57:02. > :57:08.# I know you're wrong # You're not that strong
:57:08. > :57:15.# Just let me go # Teacher
:57:15. > :57:25.# There are things that I still have to learn
:57:25. > :57:26.
:57:26. > :57:34.# And this last thing I have # Is my pride
:57:34. > :57:43.# I don't want to learn to # Hold you, touch you
:57:43. > :57:53.# Think that you're mine # 'Cos it ain't no joy
:57:53. > :57:57.