:00:05. > :00:11.This is BBC News, the headlines. Syria condemns the Arab League for
:00:11. > :00:16.so suspending its monitoring mission. Damascus says the move is
:00:16. > :00:21.designed to hasten foreign intervention. Five men are released
:00:21. > :00:26.on bail after being questioned over allegations of illegal payments to
:00:26. > :00:32.the police. Athens rejects a German proposal to appoint a European
:00:32. > :00:34.Commissioner with the power to veto Greek budgets. And I'm at the
:00:34. > :00:37.Let's start today with that friend of all things British, Nicolas
:00:37. > :00:38.bottom of a canal lock, by rights I Sarkozy. Ahead of the French
:00:38. > :00:40.should be under 20 feet of water election, the president says that
:00:40. > :00:43.but they have drained it today to if he is beaten, I will completely
:00:43. > :00:46.make maintenance repairs to the change my life. You will never hear
:00:46. > :00:48.steepest of canal staircase in Britain. And live in Melbourne as
:00:48. > :00:57.of me again. In any case, I am at Novak Djokovic and Rafael Nadal
:00:57. > :00:59.the end and I am not afraid. Magnifique! Some will say the best
:00:59. > :01:02.political promise of the year so far!
:01:02. > :01:04.And joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers, the
:01:04. > :01:07.lawyer and Labour peer Helena Kennedy, and consumer champion
:01:07. > :01:10.Richard Lloyd, director of the Which? Organisation.
:01:10. > :01:13.One way and another, fairness has been a theme of the week. From
:01:13. > :01:16.Stephen Hester's bonus to Nick Clegg's call for a mansion tax, and
:01:16. > :01:19.indeed to the government's welfare reforms, key parts of which were
:01:19. > :01:22.rejected by the House of Lords. The architect of the changes, Iain
:01:22. > :01:29.Duncan Smith, says it is the current system which is unfair on
:01:29. > :01:31.the hard-working taxpayers who pay for it. Was he moved by the peers?
:01:31. > :01:34.The Work and Pensions Secretary is with us.
:01:34. > :01:37.And if we think austerity is biting hard here, then consider Greece,
:01:37. > :01:40.where the situation is far worse but where the latest German idea
:01:40. > :01:43.for an EU bureaucrat to take complete control of the Greek
:01:43. > :01:53.economy, goodbye, democracy, has been condemned as the product of a
:01:53. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :01:57.sick imagination. The Greek government spokesman Pantelis
:01:57. > :02:00.Kapsis joins us from Athens. Also this morning, do you agree
:02:00. > :02:06.that Scotland should be an independent country? Simple enough,
:02:06. > :02:10.or is that question already loaded in favour of the nationalists? I
:02:10. > :02:14.will be asking the First Minister and SNP leader, Alex Salmond, as he
:02:14. > :02:16.lays out his terms for a referendum on Scotland's future. And I will be
:02:16. > :02:19.talking to one of our most versatile actors of stage and
:02:19. > :02:28.screen, David Haig, currently playing the mad monarch George III
:02:28. > :02:36.to huge acclaim in London's West End. All that is coming up. But
:02:36. > :02:38.first the news, with Susanna Reid. Good morning. The Syrian government
:02:38. > :02:41.has condemned the Arab League for suspending its observer mission
:02:41. > :02:46.because of the continuing violence in the country. Syria believes the
:02:46. > :02:49.move is an attempt to encourage foreign intervention. An Arab
:02:49. > :02:52.League delegation is preparing to travel to New York to try to
:02:52. > :02:54.persuade the UN Security Council to endorse its peace plan, which would
:02:54. > :03:03.see President Assad step aside. Our Middle East correspondent, Jon
:03:03. > :03:08.Leyne, reports from Cairo. This was the scene in the Syrian
:03:08. > :03:18.city of Homs. It has been a major centre of the uprising against the
:03:18. > :03:19.
:03:19. > :03:26.President. But the opposition say it came under attack from
:03:26. > :03:34.government forces. All part of a major upsurge in violence that has
:03:34. > :03:37.put the very future of the Arab League monitoring mission in doubt.
:03:37. > :03:41.In more if they teach you can see the Syrian security forces out on
:03:41. > :03:48.the streets. The opposition say the Government has been trying to
:03:48. > :03:53.regain control of major opposition strongholds like Homs. On the
:03:53. > :03:59.opposition side, the self-styled free Serie A are may have become
:03:59. > :04:05.more open and active. They are operating regularly even in suburbs
:04:05. > :04:09.of the capital, Damascus. Some were in the middle is the Arab League
:04:09. > :04:14.monitoring mission. They have been heavily criticised ever since they
:04:15. > :04:19.moved into Syria in December. They were supposed to be part of a peace
:04:19. > :04:24.plan but that was dead almost from the date was signed. The mission
:04:24. > :04:29.was renewed for one month a week ago but soon after, six of the
:04:29. > :04:34.country's pulled out. An Arab League delegation is heading to he
:04:34. > :04:38.UN headquarters in New York to build pressure for the UN Security
:04:38. > :04:41.Council to step into this process. There is continuing pressure on the
:04:41. > :04:46.RBS Chief Executive, Stephen Hester, to turn down his �1 million share
:04:46. > :04:49.bonus. The bank's chairman, Sir Philip Hampton, has handed back his
:04:49. > :04:52.bonus of more than a million pounds in shares. David Cameron is
:04:52. > :04:57.insisting it's up to Mr Hester to decide whether to reject the pay
:04:57. > :05:04.out. A poll released today says most people favour a cap on bosses'
:05:04. > :05:07.pay. Greece has rejected proposals for a
:05:07. > :05:13.senior European Union official to take control of its budget as a
:05:13. > :05:16.condition for receiving another international bailout. The idea was
:05:16. > :05:20.put forward by Germany as a way of ensuring the Greek government makes
:05:20. > :05:22.it a priority to pay off its debts. There's concern that Greece is
:05:22. > :05:24.failing to meet its targets, through reform and austerity
:05:24. > :05:27.measures. Five men arrested yesterday as part
:05:27. > :05:30.of an investigation into illegal payments to police have been
:05:30. > :05:34.released on bail. Four of them are current or former Sun journalists.
:05:34. > :05:37.The fifth is a serving Metropolitan police officer. Searches have been
:05:37. > :05:42.carried out at the homes of those arrested and at the offices of News
:05:42. > :05:48.International in East London. Today marks 70 years since Desert
:05:48. > :05:51.Island Discs was first broadcast on BBC Radio. The comedian Vic Oliver
:05:52. > :05:54.was the first castaway to choose his eight discs. Margaret Thatcher,
:05:54. > :06:01.George Michael, Yoko Ono and even Princess Margaret have featured on
:06:01. > :06:04.the iconic programme. Later this morning Sir David Attenborough will
:06:04. > :06:09.be sharing some of his favourite pieces of music. It's his fourth
:06:09. > :06:13.time as a castaway. That's all from me for now. I'll be
:06:13. > :06:17.back just before 10 o'clock with the headlines. Andrew.
:06:17. > :06:22.Thanks. Tomorrow's EU summit will be a nail-biter and key to the
:06:22. > :06:25.whole enterprise is the situation in Greece. The government there is
:06:25. > :06:28.desperately trying to reschedule its debts, but as we heard in the
:06:28. > :06:31.news, Greece has rejected German demands to hand over future Budget
:06:31. > :06:38.decisions to EU officials. Pantelis Kapsis is the spokesman for the
:06:38. > :06:43.Greek government, and he joins me now from Athens. Good morning.
:06:43. > :06:46.Cannot ask first of all about the Government's general attitude to
:06:46. > :06:53.this notion that there should be an EU commissioner who will
:06:54. > :07:01.effectively take control? A budget commissioner? There is no need for
:07:01. > :07:05.that. A decision was taken in October. We decided how the
:07:05. > :07:10.execution of the Budget would take place and we will move on that
:07:10. > :07:14.decision. The is no need for further measures. This is a
:07:14. > :07:20.concrete proposal which will be discussed at the summit, that there
:07:20. > :07:26.should be an EU Commissioner. not know if it will be discussed in
:07:26. > :07:32.the summit, maybe in the Eurozone working group. If that was proposed,
:07:32. > :07:37.seriously, what would the Greek government's reaction to it be?
:07:37. > :07:42.There is no need for it. The execution of the Budget is the
:07:42. > :07:45.responsibility of the Greek government. That would be one stage
:07:45. > :07:53.too far in restraining or suppressing Greek democracy in
:07:53. > :07:58.Europe you? It is a matter of national sovereignty, yes. It is
:07:58. > :08:04.that simple and it is no need for such a measure. We have gone a long
:08:04. > :08:08.way in reducing the deficit. Between the 4th year of recession,
:08:08. > :08:16.the fall of the deficit has been quite big, so I think we're moving
:08:16. > :08:19.in the right track. Would it be fair to say that pushing further
:08:19. > :08:26.against Greek national sovereignty and its way would dangerously
:08:26. > :08:30.inflame feelings in Greece? I know feelings are already running high.
:08:30. > :08:36.Obviously there would be repercussions there, yes. One
:08:36. > :08:43.should take that into account as well. I do not think there is a
:08:43. > :08:48.need for such a measure. It is an idea that was floated. Can ask
:08:48. > :08:53.about the other side of the discussions, which is that the
:08:53. > :08:58.directors, including the private banks, have to write-off 50 % of
:08:58. > :09:02.their debt, to get things moving again? Will that be agreed
:09:02. > :09:12.tomorrow? The discussions have gone quite well and we're very close to
:09:12. > :09:15.
:09:15. > :09:20.an agreement. Nobody can predict the future, but what is your sense
:09:20. > :09:25.about it? What is the likelihood that Greece will be able to remain
:09:25. > :09:29.within the EU know not slide towards the fault? We are doing our
:09:29. > :09:34.best. We will have difficult discussions with the European Union
:09:34. > :09:41.in the next couple of days. But at the end I hope we will find an
:09:41. > :09:45.agreement which will safeguard the position of Greece in the Eurozone.
:09:45. > :09:50.We will move in that direction. There is no other option for us and
:09:50. > :09:58.we are determined to do whatever is needed. How confident are you that
:09:58. > :10:06.you will get the 130 billion euros that you need. This government was
:10:06. > :10:12.formed exactly in order to reach agreement. We are going to do our
:10:12. > :10:17.as to safeguard this agreement. I may say so, you sound worried.
:10:17. > :10:23.You sound unsure rather than massively optimistic at the moment.
:10:23. > :10:27.I am not worried or insurer, but I do not want to make it sound that
:10:27. > :10:34.it is uneasy agreement or that we do not have difficult issues ahead.
:10:34. > :10:39.We are determined to do our as to solve them. Greek democracy is the
:10:39. > :10:43.bottom line, more important than anything else in the end?
:10:43. > :10:49.welfare of the Greek people and Greek democracy are obviously our
:10:49. > :10:56.guideline, but this is in the context of the European Union and
:10:56. > :11:00.European solidarity. These are not opposing ideas for. And finally, a
:11:00. > :11:07.message for Germany? We will do whatever is needed to reach
:11:07. > :11:10.agreement. Thank you for joining us. Now to our review of the papers.
:11:10. > :11:14.And with me to review the papers are Helena Kennedy and Richard
:11:14. > :11:19.Lloyd. He is the Sunday Telegraph, a
:11:19. > :11:24.health warning over hip implants. It is about two bits of metal
:11:24. > :11:30.grinding inside you which can poison your blood. The Mail on
:11:30. > :11:36.Sunday has a Labour MP which says that smacking ban led to the riots.
:11:37. > :11:40.The Independent On Sunday, 35.5 million and counting, a pleased
:11:40. > :11:46.looking Stephen Hester. The pressure on him in the newspapers
:11:46. > :11:50.is pretty heavy this morning. And the Observer, I despair of the lost
:11:50. > :11:57.generation sparks EU leaders to action, a reference to the massive
:11:57. > :12:03.numbers of young people have to do not have jobs.
:12:03. > :12:08.Good morning. Were going to start with the bonus story. I think it is
:12:08. > :12:12.the big story across the papers. This business of Stephen Hester
:12:12. > :12:17.getting all this money. He was brought in when we had at
:12:17. > :12:24.incredible annual loss, the biggest in British corporate history.
:12:24. > :12:28.Instead of coming to the service of his nation, he comes in and was
:12:28. > :12:34.given a 35.5 million pound package, according to the Independent On
:12:34. > :12:39.Sunday. Now he's getting his million-pound bonus. In sales they
:12:39. > :12:44.always say that a sweater is being sold for �9.99 pence rather than
:12:44. > :12:49.�10. Dropping below the million pound markets meant to make us
:12:49. > :12:54.think that he is not getting a large bonus. The Government is
:12:54. > :12:59.talking about moral capitalism. David Cameron comes out as being
:12:59. > :13:05.very feeble when it comes to the rich. It is the poor who are taking
:13:05. > :13:13.the hit. This goes to the heart of the approach of government. What
:13:13. > :13:19.has he delivered? Likud the results. There is a �26 million loss. Last
:13:19. > :13:26.year it was announced that they have probably sold �850 million of
:13:26. > :13:31.payment protection insurance. The bank is not doing much for us as
:13:31. > :13:37.shareholders. We should also say that Philip Hampton, the RBS
:13:37. > :13:42.chairman, has turned down a 1.4 million-pound bonus. He saw the
:13:42. > :13:47.whirlwind coming towards him. George Osborne manages the part of
:13:47. > :13:54.the Treasury that takes care of our shareholding. Surely they can get
:13:54. > :14:01.more restrained. Let's turn to your first story, Richard. EU leaders
:14:01. > :14:06.are going to try and save the lost generation. More than half of
:14:06. > :14:12.Spain's young people are unemployed, around a quarter in the UK. It is
:14:12. > :14:17.extraordinary. Leaders are saying that despite the austerity we are
:14:17. > :14:26.going to find 25 billion euros to put into getting young people work
:14:26. > :14:33.as soon as they have left College. A bit late in the day, I would say.
:14:33. > :14:37.Looked at the double speech bread. -- Aluko at the double page spread.
:14:37. > :14:44.We're hearing about young people speaking about the Experiences and
:14:44. > :14:50.it is awful reading. A generation are going to feel very
:14:50. > :14:54.disenfranchised and very angry. The next story, in the sun, it rumbles
:14:54. > :15:00.on forever but it is a very important story about the state of
:15:00. > :15:05.our nation. It is about journalism and corruption. It is about
:15:05. > :15:11.corruption in our police force. A detective has been arrested over
:15:11. > :15:21.accepting payments from newspapers. The four Sun journalists have been
:15:21. > :15:22.
:15:22. > :15:26.You have yourself been around the law courts from time to time. Are
:15:26. > :15:32.you surprised by this story? have always known that people got
:15:32. > :15:42.paid, we always accepted that this kind of thing went on. We were not
:15:42. > :15:46.
:15:46. > :15:51.happy about it. We always knew that there had been tip-offs. There were
:15:51. > :15:56.ways in which payments were made. But this reaches right to the heart
:15:56. > :16:02.of policing and Trust in policing. We have known it has gone on but
:16:02. > :16:07.they have not cleaned up their act. And even at a senior level, that
:16:07. > :16:13.business of people leaving the police, the revolving door, going
:16:13. > :16:19.straight into well-paid jobs. Someone pointed out earlier that we
:16:19. > :16:29.know the names of the newspaper journalists, but not the policeman.
:16:29. > :16:30.
:16:30. > :16:36.Extraordinary. More and more it is going to emerge and it chips away
:16:36. > :16:41.at people's Trust. Next quite a serious story on the front page of
:16:41. > :16:47.the Sunday Telegraph. Another medical implants story. Thousands
:16:47. > :16:53.of people have had these HIP in plants that could be leaking poison
:16:53. > :16:57.into their bodies. The so-called metal on metal implants, it grinds
:16:57. > :17:02.away and tiny bits of metal can come into your bloodstream. This
:17:02. > :17:12.will be concerning people who have that other types of in plants as
:17:12. > :17:13.
:17:13. > :17:18.well. There is now going to be a general thing about how safe the
:17:18. > :17:24.medical devices are that we're getting put into our bodies. In a
:17:24. > :17:32.very routine way, we now just consider it another operation.
:17:32. > :17:40.is interesting, the story mentions a particular patient at risk, small
:17:40. > :17:47.women! They are the most at risk. It does to a new why you have to
:17:47. > :17:55.have good regulation around health. And if you try to cut away at that,
:17:55. > :18:00.you end up getting defective things. Now a big foreign story. One of
:18:00. > :18:05.that favourite places I have ever been to his Mexico City. This is a
:18:05. > :18:15.shocker. It's this isn't the Sunday Telegraph and it is a shocking
:18:15. > :18:16.
:18:16. > :18:22.photograph of people, basically, a summary justice. The drugs war in
:18:22. > :18:27.Mexico now is an huge thing. should be said that some of the
:18:27. > :18:32.drugs cartels have been murdering a policeman as well. The business of
:18:32. > :18:37.drugs and the whole of Latin America and this corruption of
:18:37. > :18:43.democracy and the effect on the rest of the world, we have not yet
:18:43. > :18:48.got to grips with the issue of drugs. It is an interesting story.
:18:48. > :18:58.But I don't think that this is a global problem. Young people
:18:58. > :18:58.
:18:58. > :19:03.apparently been paid $85 by the Mafia took murder. In other ways,
:19:03. > :19:08.these countries could become rich and highly successful nations but
:19:08. > :19:14.there corrupted to their core by this business. Another domestic
:19:14. > :19:21.story, and something which angers a lot of people. This is a campaign
:19:21. > :19:26.by the Mail on Sunday. If you have a minor accident, suddenly you're
:19:26. > :19:31.bombarded by claims management companies who say, we will take on
:19:31. > :19:37.your case. In particular someone driving who is bumped gently by
:19:38. > :19:42.another car, instantly claims whiplash. This puts up the cost of
:19:42. > :19:50.insurance. I keep getting text messages from people saying that
:19:50. > :19:55.they will get as many. They get so old your details by Europe
:19:55. > :20:03.insurance company and that is the scandal there. This also feeds into
:20:03. > :20:08.something bigger. What they feed into is the business off what
:20:08. > :20:15.people describe as the compensation culture. The idea that everyone is
:20:15. > :20:21.out there to get their bit, it is all about money. Of course it is
:20:21. > :20:27.not free money because the rest of us pay higher. Almost every story
:20:27. > :20:33.in the press is how hybrid capitalism has somehow made our
:20:33. > :20:37.lives all about money. It has led to the most incredible ethical
:20:37. > :20:44.problems for society over how we conduct ourselves, how the police
:20:44. > :20:50.conduct themselves, journalists. One of the stories is about how
:20:50. > :20:56.1000 top British which collects in the last two years, �135 billion
:20:56. > :21:01.has been added to their wealth and they paid very little tax. Yet
:21:01. > :21:08.everyone is very concerned about scroungers. We will talk about that
:21:08. > :21:16.later on. Some of the stories I mentioned right at the beginning,
:21:16. > :21:25.and the story about smacking. MP is saying it is a lack of
:21:25. > :21:29.discipline at home that led to the situation of the riots. He said if
:21:29. > :21:36.there was more of that there would be fewer young people on the
:21:36. > :21:41.streets. I do hope he's being misquoted and that some small thing
:21:41. > :21:48.he said in an interview has been made a lot off. Because the idea
:21:48. > :21:58.that smacking led to that violence, cannot be further from the truth.
:21:58. > :22:06.Almost out of time. You have a story here about Michelle Mone.
:22:06. > :22:11.has a successful business and if Scotland becomes independent, she
:22:11. > :22:16.will move across the border. I suggest she should wait and see.
:22:16. > :22:21.I'm not so sure that the Scots will go for independence. But all these
:22:21. > :22:26.people who say, I am going to leave like Andrew Lloyd Webber did if
:22:26. > :22:31.Labour won the election, and they never do. I suspect that if Alex
:22:31. > :22:41.Salmond won, he would lower corporation tax and she would find
:22:41. > :22:44.
:22:44. > :22:48.it conducive to remain in Scotland. Thank you both very much indeed.
:22:48. > :22:52.The union between England has Scotland has lasted for more than
:22:52. > :22:57.300 years but in the next couple of years there will be a referendum
:22:57. > :23:00.and the question will be, did you agree that Scotland should be an
:23:00. > :23:05.independent country? But already the question itself is being hotly
:23:05. > :23:13.debated. I'm joined from Aberdeen Show by the First Minister, Alex
:23:13. > :23:19.Salmond. You are familiar with the slightly
:23:19. > :23:25.cold weather here! The testing climate, indeed! Can I ask first of
:23:25. > :23:35.all if you are concerned by a people like Michelle Mone who said
:23:35. > :23:36.
:23:36. > :23:41.she would leave if Scotland becomes independent? I think it was Helena
:23:41. > :23:45.Kennedy could put it very well. Michelle's concerns seems to be
:23:45. > :23:50.predicated on the idea that we would put business tax up but in
:23:50. > :23:55.fact our strategy is to lower at that. I think that will be helpful
:23:55. > :24:01.to attract a lot of other business to Scotland. Michelle and she said
:24:01. > :24:08.this the week before the elections in two dozen than seven in Scotland
:24:08. > :24:11.which the SNP actually won. In terms of the future, in terms of
:24:11. > :24:17.attracting new businesses to Scotland, it is important that we
:24:17. > :24:20.have a competitive rate of corporation tax. That is our policy
:24:20. > :24:26.and I'm sure when we explain that to Michelle Mone, she will be
:24:26. > :24:31.encouraged. Let's turn to the question itself that you announced.
:24:31. > :24:36.People who study referendums and polling say if you ask a question
:24:36. > :24:41.like this, do you want Scotland to be independent, that tilts the
:24:41. > :24:45.answers slightly towards yes. And many of your critics have said that
:24:45. > :24:50.this is also about the break-up of the UK and that should be mentioned
:24:50. > :24:53.in the question so the question would be something more like, do
:24:53. > :24:59.you want Scotland to lead the United Kingdom. Do you think that
:24:59. > :25:05.would be an equally fair question? Met me just to deal with this. One
:25:05. > :25:11.of the greatest referendum experts in the world, from Cranfield
:25:11. > :25:16.University, he said that the question is clear and
:25:16. > :25:21.straightforward. The leader of the Scottish Conservatives has said
:25:21. > :25:29.that for her the question is there and decisive. One expert from
:25:29. > :25:35.Arizona I heard on the Today programme, a completely independent
:25:35. > :25:39.person, but it turns out according to the press that he has been
:25:39. > :25:43.advising the Conservative Party Central Office. But the questing,
:25:43. > :25:51.do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country, yes or
:25:51. > :25:57.no, I think to most of the viewers watching this programme, they would
:25:57. > :26:03.agree that it seems to be a pretty fair and decisive question. Let me
:26:03. > :26:09.come on to the other potential question, which is Scotland
:26:09. > :26:14.remaining inside the UK but with fiscal autonomy. Would you on
:26:14. > :26:21.balance the affair that question to be on the ballot paper or not?
:26:21. > :26:24.will come to that in the second. You asked an interesting question,
:26:24. > :26:30.the question of the United Kingdom. One of the things that I would
:26:30. > :26:38.argue is of course the United Kingdom to an extent, it was formed
:26:38. > :26:45.in 1600 and three. It is SNP policy to have the Queen as our head of
:26:45. > :26:49.state. So that union, if you like, would be maintained. I think that
:26:49. > :26:58.is a stumbling block about pushing for the question of the United
:26:58. > :27:04.Kingdom when it is our policy to have the Queen as head of state.
:27:04. > :27:10.So if the SNP won a referendum on independence, you would regard
:27:10. > :27:16.Scotland as still being part of the United Kingdom? I'm just saying
:27:16. > :27:24.that when you have a monarchical Union, the Queen would still be our
:27:25. > :27:29.head of state. She would be Queen of Scotland, Queen of England. So
:27:29. > :27:34.that is why I'm saying it is not a good idea to confuse the issue by
:27:34. > :27:40.talking about the United Kingdom when what we are talking about his
:27:40. > :27:45.political independence. In 200 countries around the world, they
:27:45. > :27:50.have that in practice. Let me come to the question of fiscal
:27:50. > :27:57.independence. David Cameron has made it clear that as prime
:27:57. > :28:00.minister of the United Kingdom, he will insist on it being either
:28:00. > :28:08.independence or of the status quo, not a middle option on the ballot
:28:08. > :28:13.paper. I think that is strange, I read that in the newspapers today.
:28:13. > :28:17.If you look at UK government's consultation paper, they asked
:28:17. > :28:22.people in Scotland about the question or questions that they
:28:22. > :28:26.would like to seek asked. It seems extraordinary that two weeks into a
:28:26. > :28:30.consultation, the Prime Minister seems to have made up his mind
:28:30. > :28:36.already. I would advise him to do what I'm going to do, to listen to
:28:36. > :28:39.the voices that come forward, to see if there is a real demand for
:28:39. > :28:45.having the question on fiscal autonomy and financial powers on
:28:45. > :28:51.the ballot paper. If that demand is there I think it would only be
:28:51. > :28:55.democratic to allow that forced to be heard. And honestly come and we
:28:55. > :29:00.have the first poll in Scotland today, showing a majority for
:29:00. > :29:04.independence for some time. I think some of that increase in support
:29:04. > :29:08.for independence is a reaction against the kind of dictatorial
:29:08. > :29:12.line we have been getting from Downing Street. I think the Prime
:29:12. > :29:17.Minister would do well to listen to the voice of people and try to
:29:17. > :29:20.conduct this debate with a bit more positivity. I think that would be
:29:20. > :29:25.an approach which would go down well both north and south of the
:29:25. > :29:30.border. I their full independence or fiscal autonomy, it would not
:29:30. > :29:36.simply be a matter of Scotland succeeding, it would be added force,
:29:36. > :29:39.of a kind. And that means both sides having a say. Would not be
:29:39. > :29:45.reasonable in both cases for English voters to be able to vote
:29:45. > :29:51.on this matter? I think there is agreement on the question of
:29:51. > :29:57.independence. Across the world, if a nation intends to be independent,
:29:57. > :30:01.that is something for that country itself. That is almost universally
:30:01. > :30:06.accepted as a principle. Of course the House of Commons has a say in
:30:06. > :30:11.the matter. But I think every UK prime minister since Harold Wilson
:30:11. > :30:16.has accepted the principle that independence is a matter for the
:30:16. > :30:22.Scots to determine. In terms of a question of physical autonomy,
:30:22. > :30:27.Scotland has the right, of course that ringing declaration was
:30:27. > :30:33.deserted by the Scottish parliament, the idea that the Scottish people
:30:33. > :30:36.have that right. And then have so - - if Scotland pronounces that
:30:36. > :30:40.opinion than the House of Commons has the right to represent the
:30:40. > :30:48.people of England to take a view on that. But in terms of the debate
:30:48. > :30:54.and how it is conducted, I think that most people in England take
:30:54. > :30:58.two views on Scotland. One, that it could once to the Independent then
:30:58. > :31:03.that is fair enough as long as it is standing on its own two feet.
:31:03. > :31:09.And secondly, if they want to see the best possible relationship
:31:09. > :31:19.between Scotland and England after independence, as the best of
:31:19. > :31:26.
:31:26. > :31:31.The point I was making it is that the view of England is expressed
:31:31. > :31:39.through the House of Commons. That is where the proposition made by
:31:39. > :31:43.Scotland was expressed. In Scotland, there has been a tradition of the
:31:43. > :31:48.sovereignty of the people, something I, and I suspect you,
:31:48. > :31:53.have great respect for. I always respect the sovereignty of the
:31:53. > :31:57.people. Can I ask about the people's sovereignty over their
:31:57. > :32:01.currency? You would like to keep the pound and an independent
:32:01. > :32:06.Scotland. Does that not mean that in effect monetary and fiscal
:32:06. > :32:11.policy would be run from London? You would not have an independent
:32:11. > :32:15.central bank? You would have the same subservient relationship to
:32:15. > :32:22.fiscal power that for example, the Greeks arguing about when it comes
:32:22. > :32:27.to the euro? There are 70 countries across the planet to her either in
:32:27. > :32:32.formal or informal monetary unions. They are still independent
:32:32. > :32:37.countries. I proposed a monetary union between Scotland and England
:32:37. > :32:41.after independence because I think that would be sensible. UK
:32:41. > :32:47.politicians gave up setting interest rates in 1977 when the
:32:47. > :32:52.Bank of England became independent. But from an English point of view,
:32:52. > :32:57.even though Scotland has the revenues from our share of North
:32:57. > :33:02.Sea or oil and gas, it would provide some protection for the UK
:33:02. > :33:08.balance of payments, which very few UK chancellors would want to turn
:33:08. > :33:15.down. I have not even mentioned the �4 billion of exports from Scotch
:33:15. > :33:21.whisky. For we will move briskly on. One final story which is all over
:33:21. > :33:28.the papers today is Stephen Hester's bonus at RBS. Just short
:33:28. > :33:38.of �1 million. What is your view on it? My view is when an organisation
:33:38. > :33:44.is in the public sector and there has to be the discipline that
:33:44. > :33:50.ordinary workers in the public sector are being asked to accept.
:33:50. > :33:55.It is a real threat to economic recovery. Clearly the integrity of
:33:55. > :33:59.public services depend on pay restraint in the public sector. It
:33:59. > :34:04.is difficult to see how that can be maintained if we have this sort of
:34:04. > :34:10.debates we have had over the last couple of days. I believe the
:34:10. > :34:14.Westminster parties are culpable. Labour made this arrangement in the
:34:14. > :34:18.first place and the Conservatives, after calling on the shareholders
:34:18. > :34:28.of private companies to do something, are reluctant to do
:34:28. > :34:33.something themselves. I think this question of inequality has to be
:34:33. > :34:36.tackled if we are to protect economic recovery. Alex Salmond,
:34:36. > :34:42.before the storm behind you actually arrives, I will say thank
:34:42. > :34:49.you. If you want to know where that storm is coming from there are dark
:34:49. > :34:53.rumours of a cold blast all the way from Russia. As it happens, this is
:34:53. > :35:02.from Russia. As it happens, this is not good news. Let's take a look at
:35:02. > :35:07.the weather. Good morning. It is cold. It is
:35:07. > :35:13.becoming colder as we head through the week, but not as cold as it was
:35:13. > :35:18.in Russia. It is a frosty start for many, but the complication in our
:35:18. > :35:22.forecast comes with this weather front. It is now into Wales and
:35:22. > :35:30.south-west England and when it reaches the cold air, it will turn
:35:30. > :35:36.to snow. There is a weather warning for this. The weather front will
:35:36. > :35:42.turn to snow as it advances East. For Northern Ireland, milder bear.
:35:42. > :35:46.It will stay cloudy with rain all day long. For Scotland and the
:35:46. > :35:52.north-west of England, cloud gatherers bringing scattered
:35:52. > :36:01.showers. For the East of England, it is misty and foggy at the moment.
:36:01. > :36:06.Those conditions slowed to improve, and a chilly day for many. For the
:36:06. > :36:14.rush-hour across the south-west, we will have seven centimetres of snow
:36:14. > :36:18.over the hills. Even some at lower levels. Ms Sting conditions slow to
:36:18. > :36:21.clear. But it is chilly tomorrow clear. But it is chilly tomorrow
:36:21. > :36:25.and it will get even colder as we head into the coming weeks.
:36:25. > :36:30.It is more than 20 years since Alan Bennett's brilliant play The
:36:30. > :36:34.Madness Of George III opened at the National Theatre. It was such a
:36:34. > :36:42.success it became an Oscar-winning movie starring Nigel Hawthorne. Big
:36:42. > :36:48.shoes to fill but one of our most versatile actors, David Tait, is
:36:48. > :36:53.currently in the West End in that role. As a meditation on power and
:36:53. > :37:01.politicking, David heed's monarch may be mad, but he is also wise.
:37:01. > :37:05.Welcome. What can I say? This is one of
:37:05. > :37:09.these iconic roles that people see through Nigel Hawthorne's
:37:09. > :37:16.performance because of the movie. When you were first offered it,
:37:16. > :37:20.were you nervous about it? I was not, not because I believed I with
:37:20. > :37:24.Japan's Nigel Hawthorne. But if you are offered a Shakespearean role
:37:24. > :37:30.that has been played in the previous five years by other
:37:30. > :37:36.factors, why not take it? This is Shakespeare, because it is about
:37:36. > :37:40.the extremes of human consciousness? Yes, and it is truly
:37:40. > :37:48.tragic in that it is about a man of massive statists who falls to a
:37:48. > :37:51.very low place in the middle of the play, and incontinent Reg. But one
:37:51. > :37:59.of the great attributes of the play is that Alan Bennett allows the
:37:59. > :38:05.audience to celebrate his recovery, which was historically accurate.
:38:05. > :38:09.The audience love seeing him recover. It has very strong
:38:10. > :38:17.political themes as well. There are various political factions
:38:17. > :38:21.jockeying for power? Yes, and William Pitt's great cry off give
:38:21. > :38:29.me five more years. That must resonate with some of your audience
:38:29. > :38:34.and gets. Every politician just once one more chance. Yes, so a
:38:34. > :38:38.politician is in power and just longs to be there for longer.
:38:38. > :38:43.Blair said that it was only towards the end of his time in power that
:38:43. > :38:48.he really understood how to make things work. Nicolas Sarkozy is
:38:48. > :38:53.probably feeling the same way. The other a great role you have done is
:38:53. > :39:01.Jim Hacker in Yes, Prime Minister. Before we speak about that, let's
:39:01. > :39:06.see a little video clip. Do we have to deal with that tonight as well
:39:06. > :39:12.as the collapsing conference, the BBC, my treacherous cabinet, you're
:39:12. > :39:19.leaks, my disloyal party, the run on the pound, is there anything
:39:19. > :39:27.else? Is there anything else you can pile on the tonight, yes,
:39:27. > :39:32.global warming. Thank you very much. It is interesting that that piece
:39:32. > :39:37.of drama doesn't make you feel for politicians as well, doesn't it?
:39:37. > :39:42.There has been a lot of her -- a lot of satire and hostility towards
:39:42. > :39:48.the political class, but that gives you a sense of the impossible task
:39:48. > :39:57.their wrestling with? An impossible amount of pressure, ideally
:39:57. > :40:05.cumulation of problems, just as one thing is solved, another arises.
:40:05. > :40:11.What do you think about the Olympics? I hope it will not affect
:40:11. > :40:16.the West End. My suspicion is that people will rest in the evening.
:40:16. > :40:22.Within the recession, the West End is thriving, and I think it is the
:40:22. > :40:27.old thing of a release from difficult times. I hope during the
:40:27. > :40:32.Olympics that people will come in the evenings as well. For one if
:40:32. > :40:37.you're other great roles was playing more warm's husband. A
:40:37. > :40:42.lovely man, but it must have been strange playing someone in a movie
:40:42. > :40:47.who at that point was still alive. Always when you play someone based
:40:47. > :40:54.on a real person, you have to it here to the script, and be loyal to
:40:54. > :40:59.the script. I thought that was a very fine screenplay. I played the
:40:59. > :41:08.character that was written, who was extremely ambitious and loyal for
:41:08. > :41:14.more Mowlam. He also had an extremely warm, immediate
:41:14. > :41:20.personality. Your Own script of Kipling and his son was also a
:41:20. > :41:24.great high point. As very moving father-and-son relationship. He
:41:24. > :41:30.also got Daniel Radcliffe at the height of Harry Potter mania to
:41:30. > :41:38.play that part. Was that difficult to get him to do it? He is a very
:41:38. > :41:45.shrewd, intelligent man, who is fascinated by that area of British
:41:45. > :41:50.history. I was doing a play in the West End and Daniel came to see it.
:41:50. > :41:56.When the script was sent to him, he was excited by the idea of
:41:56. > :42:02.investigating that period filly. is a poignant story. I am delighted
:42:02. > :42:07.he did. You must be bored with people calling you Bernard. I need
:42:07. > :42:13.to ask you about Four Weddings. When you were making the film, did
:42:13. > :42:18.you have the sense that it was going to be really good? I thought
:42:18. > :42:25.people believed it was going to be good and funny, but a local success.
:42:25. > :42:29.No one had any idea of its global achievement. That was encapsulated
:42:29. > :42:33.when I went to the Hungarian distribution party and everyone was
:42:33. > :42:38.clapping and cheering. They were watching the British upper-middle
:42:38. > :42:45.classes celebrating weddings and funerals. I will let you get back
:42:45. > :42:49.to being mad and Wise with George III. Thank you for having me.
:42:49. > :42:55.production of Yes, Prime Minister, which David takes Guardian recently,
:42:55. > :42:59.is going on a national tour soon with a brand new cast. The
:42:59. > :43:03.Government's welfare reforms came in for a mauling during the week.
:43:03. > :43:07.The House of Lords voted for significant changes to the
:43:07. > :43:12.proposals which included a cap on benefits. MPs will have their say
:43:12. > :43:17.on Wednesday and I am joined now by the Work and Pensions Secretary,
:43:17. > :43:22.Iain Duncan Smith. Good morning. There is a series of reverses which
:43:22. > :43:26.she suffered in the House of Lords. First of all the proposal to make
:43:26. > :43:31.people pay up front to get help from the Child Support Agency in
:43:31. > :43:37.chasing fathers or sometimes mothers. A lot of people feel that
:43:37. > :43:42.this is unfair and did well put people off an essential service?
:43:42. > :43:46.The system we have at the moment is completely dysfunctional. We have
:43:46. > :43:56.two major IT systems that do not work and a bag load of people we
:43:56. > :43:59.cannot get hold of. It costs about �40,000 for a case to be settled.
:44:00. > :44:06.We need to make an administration charge. It is very expensive and
:44:06. > :44:10.does not work. This helps to divide parents from each other. When they
:44:10. > :44:14.go to the agency, they become very hard and each other because they
:44:14. > :44:18.are almost forced to be at each other's throats. Is this charge
:44:18. > :44:25.designed to stop people using the agency and make them do something
:44:25. > :44:30.else? We have been looking at behavioural economics. It shows
:44:30. > :44:34.that if there is a small charge, people will think more. 50 % of
:44:34. > :44:41.people who are going into the system have said to us that if they
:44:41. > :44:47.had thought Again, then they would have done it had side. The parents
:44:47. > :44:56.complain about being able -- about not being able to see the children,
:44:56. > :45:00.and the other patient complains about the money. Lord Mackay,
:45:00. > :45:05.hardly a liberal, pointed out that their allotted pretty desperate
:45:05. > :45:10.people who want to use the system, and making them pay up front with
:45:10. > :45:17.money they do not have seems unfair. -- of there are a lot of pretty
:45:17. > :45:21.desperate people. That is not the issue. What is wrong with his
:45:21. > :45:28.amendment is that he is not against charging. He wants all the charge
:45:28. > :45:31.to be on the parent without care. This means that even there is us --
:45:31. > :45:36.even if there is a slight difficulty, it will go straight
:45:36. > :45:42.into the system, you will punish the individual twice. We want to
:45:42. > :45:45.make sure that this is balanced. We are only asking for about 9% of the
:45:45. > :45:55.money they receive. We will still pick up the lion's share of the
:45:55. > :46:01.
:46:01. > :46:08.cost. But there also will be Are you going to reverse the
:46:08. > :46:14.changes on the welfare benefits cat? The principle of that Cappagh
:46:14. > :46:19.is straight forward. Even amongst Labour and Liberal voters it is
:46:19. > :46:26.popular. Because it simply says why should someone on benefits be
:46:26. > :46:28.earning more than the average wage? We want to avoid that ridiculous
:46:28. > :46:35.position where they are living in expensive houses with lots of
:46:35. > :46:40.children. We want to be fair to taxpayers who are on low and
:46:40. > :46:46.marginal incomes. The that is the principle of fairness. But as was
:46:46. > :46:50.pointed out by bishops and indeed Conservative Peers, there are
:46:50. > :46:57.families with a fair number of children who are going to be
:46:57. > :47:07.severely hit by this. We use as suggestion that you should exclude
:47:07. > :47:14.child benefit from the cap. Because that goes to the children. So why
:47:14. > :47:19.punish them? Well the principle behind all of our reforms, there's
:47:19. > :47:23.one principle which is to get people who have fallen into
:47:24. > :47:26.benefits to get a sense of responsibility about what they do
:47:26. > :47:31.and to recognise that they should always be striving to change their
:47:31. > :47:35.lives so that they actually contribute rather than take. The
:47:35. > :47:40.reason why I would not remove child benefit from the cab is that the
:47:40. > :47:48.level of the cap would rise which would be ludicrous. And also, you
:47:48. > :47:53.cannot go on detaching children from their parents. We keep talking
:47:53. > :47:57.as if children are somehow there, and what their parents do has no
:47:57. > :48:05.bearing. We want people to make positive choices so their children
:48:05. > :48:10.have a positive outcome. What about the same argument against having a
:48:10. > :48:14.regional variation? Because house prices in London are so much higher
:48:14. > :48:20.and housing benefit is a large part of this. You would be forcing a lot
:48:21. > :48:28.of families to move house. Well the overall level is critical because
:48:28. > :48:31.we have people living in London, in some cases in flats costing over
:48:31. > :48:37.�100,000 per year to rent. That is the kind of nonsense we got
:48:37. > :48:43.ourselves into. It is important to settle the London issue. So no
:48:43. > :48:48.regional Cappagh? I am not going for a regional cap. If the Labour
:48:48. > :48:54.Party really want a regional cap then that must mean that they want
:48:54. > :49:00.benefits to be regionalised as well. You cannot detach one and just say,
:49:00. > :49:06.we would like a bit of this but not the other. You said that you have
:49:06. > :49:11.public support for this. And the polls show that. There's other
:49:11. > :49:15.overwhelming support for higher taxation on the risk. The sense
:49:15. > :49:21.that this government is cracking down on people at the bottom end of
:49:21. > :49:26.the scale but not nearly enough on those at the top end. People like
:49:26. > :49:30.the idea of a mansion tax and higher taxes on higher earners. Yet
:49:30. > :49:36.you government goes against both of those things. Actually, the
:49:36. > :49:46.government has done a lot already. We have that 50% tax which is a big
:49:46. > :49:46.
:49:47. > :49:51.increase. That was a Labour move. The. Also is that we have had the
:49:52. > :49:57.bankers led the, an annual levy on bonuses which raises more every
:49:57. > :50:01.year than the Labour government's one-off races. We also have gone
:50:01. > :50:06.for massive transparency in what people are being paid, Executive
:50:06. > :50:08.pay. We are doing a lot about trying to get people to understand
:50:08. > :50:15.that there is a relationship between the higher and lower
:50:15. > :50:20.earners. In the last government income inequality was at its worst.
:50:20. > :50:27.Just before we leave the welfare issue, you mentioned the idea of
:50:27. > :50:33.transitional payments, some kind of grace period before these new
:50:33. > :50:39.changes kick in. Can you tell us more? Well this has always been
:50:39. > :50:42.clear from when I made the speech at third reading. We will take
:50:42. > :50:52.Discretionary measures and where there are issues, we will look at
:50:52. > :50:52.
:50:53. > :50:56.that. Most people are back in work within six to nine months. The
:50:56. > :51:01.Prime Minister and myself have always said this, this has always
:51:01. > :51:10.been clear, that we are looking at discretionary measures but the key
:51:10. > :51:13.to the cap is that it comes in at 26,000. And Stephen Hester, that
:51:13. > :51:21.close to �1 million bonus, causing intense anger. The government could
:51:21. > :51:25.have done something about that. government has. The government made
:51:25. > :51:30.it clear to the board that they should take into consideration the
:51:30. > :51:40.nature of the consent among the wider public. The government - did
:51:40. > :51:46.the board set this bowlers at half the level it was. -- this bonus. It
:51:46. > :51:52.is paid in shares, not exercisable until 2014. And they can be clawed
:51:52. > :51:58.back if he does not achieve what he wants. The second thing, and the
:51:58. > :52:02.reality is that the contract we inherited, it is very clear that
:52:02. > :52:07.the board takes the decision on this. We cannot interfere and tell
:52:07. > :52:13.them what to do. The other option would be to get rid of the board
:52:13. > :52:21.but if you do that, imagine what would happen in the banking sector
:52:21. > :52:27.and in RBS. Just think of the chaos. RBS's balance sheet is slightly
:52:27. > :52:32.larger than the GDP of the UK. What would that do to ordinary people?
:52:32. > :52:41.We need to get this bank to a stage where we can sell it back. Would
:52:41. > :52:45.you like Stephen Hester not to take his bonus? I have always said that
:52:45. > :52:55.people need to think carefully about being -- being detached from
:52:55. > :52:56.
:52:56. > :53:00.the rest of the British public. In the end it is up to him. It now
:53:00. > :53:03.seems that the euro group of countries is going to use the
:53:03. > :53:10.European Commission, European courts and that whole structure of
:53:10. > :53:16.officials, to put four much deeper fiscal union. Are you happy with
:53:16. > :53:21.that? Will the Prime Minister made it here in the last summit that the
:53:21. > :53:26.UK was not going to play a part, it would not be involved with that. We
:53:26. > :53:32.did not wanted to damage the single market are up our own banking
:53:32. > :53:38.market. And did not want a European Union structures to be part of it.
:53:39. > :53:42.The fact is the prime minister needed then using the institutions.
:53:42. > :53:46.That the deal was because we have no guarantees that what was being
:53:46. > :53:51.proposed would not damage the single market or cause problems in
:53:51. > :54:01.the financial sector. This still not have -- have not completed
:54:01. > :54:06.their treaty. Best to wait until we get there. If the structures of the
:54:06. > :54:11.European Union I used for that end, to drive much deeper fiscal union,
:54:11. > :54:15.what would be your attitude to that? The Prime Minister has
:54:15. > :54:22.already made it clear because he'd be did any such possibility of that
:54:22. > :54:26.happening. I Trust him on this because I know where he stands. He
:54:26. > :54:32.wants to take the single market, protect it. We want them to get
:54:32. > :54:38.their economies sorted out but we do not want them thrashing around
:54:38. > :54:43.damaging the very thing we set up, which is accessed to the
:54:43. > :54:48.marketplace and a free financial sector. To go out and actually veto
:54:48. > :54:52.the treaty says a lot about his leadership. When you look at the
:54:52. > :54:55.proposal of a European Union official basically to take over the
:54:55. > :55:01.entire tax and spending of a sovereign country like Greece, what
:55:01. > :55:05.you feel about the way that is going? I think there is a lesson
:55:05. > :55:09.for all of them and they think it is one the Prime Minister will have
:55:09. > :55:14.enunciated to them. If you fiddle around with democracy because you
:55:14. > :55:19.do not quite like what it does then the Open the door to those who say,
:55:19. > :55:26.why have democracy at all? So you need to be careful about how you
:55:26. > :55:30.deal with sovereign states and how they govern themselves. We should
:55:30. > :55:34.always stand up for democratic freedoms all over Europe. Lack of
:55:34. > :55:43.democratic freedoms is what caused the second world war after all.
:55:43. > :55:46.Now over to Susanna for the news headlines.
:55:46. > :55:47.The Syrian government has condemned the Arab League for suspending its
:55:48. > :55:50.observer mission because of the continuing violence. It believes
:55:50. > :55:52.the move is an attempt to encourage foreign intervention. An Arab
:55:52. > :55:55.League delegation is preparing to travel to New York to try to
:55:55. > :56:00.persuade the UN Security Council to endorse its peace plan, which would
:56:00. > :56:03.see President Assad step aside. There's continuing pressure on the
:56:03. > :56:06.RBS Chief Executive, Stephen Hester, to turn down his one million pound
:56:06. > :56:13.share bonus. The bank's chairman, Sir Philip Hampton has handed back
:56:13. > :56:22.his bonus, of more than a million pounds in shares. A poll released
:56:22. > :56:25.today says most people favour a cap on bosses' pay.
:56:25. > :56:29.That's all from me for now. The next news on BBC1 is at midday.
:56:29. > :56:37.Back to Andrew and guests in a moment. But first a look at what's
:56:37. > :56:47.coming up after this show. Join us in Ben Brown where we will be
:56:47. > :56:50.
:56:50. > :56:53.asking if the UK will miss Scotland. -- in Edinburgh. Then the other
:56:54. > :56:57.matter - should gay couples have the right to marry? See you at 10
:56:57. > :57:04.o'clock. Well, Iain Duncan Smith is still
:57:04. > :57:09.with me, and we've been joined again by Helena Kennedy. There is a
:57:09. > :57:14.suggestion that Lib-Dem MPs will do what some of their peers did and
:57:14. > :57:21.split off. Are you concerned about that? Well we got the bill through
:57:21. > :57:26.without that. Things like the cat, we can always look at discretionary
:57:26. > :57:36.measures to make sure that people are not punished but are able to
:57:36. > :57:37.
:57:37. > :57:42.sort out their lines. There is a suggestion in front Nick Clegg that
:57:42. > :57:47.the House of Lords needs to be taking seriously in these matters.
:57:48. > :57:52.You have to ask what is the House of Lords for, it is an unelected
:57:52. > :57:57.Chamber. But it was a thought for debate and the bishops played an
:57:57. > :58:05.important role in it. And a leading Conservatives of high principle
:58:05. > :58:10.spoke about the justice of the some of this, expecting mothers bringing
:58:10. > :58:13.up children actually having to pay a price. We always say that we
:58:13. > :58:21.listen to what the House of Lords say and hold them in high regard
:58:21. > :58:24.but at the end of the day we need to make sure that this does not
:58:24. > :58:29.punish people for temporarily caught in situations not of their
:58:29. > :58:33.making. I have always been clear about that. I think in the public
:58:33. > :58:37.it is a sense that whilst we want something done about too much
:58:37. > :58:42.benefit being paid, it is the other men that people feel is not being
:58:42. > :58:46.dealt with. There was a big difference between the rhetoric...