:00:39. > :00:42.Good morning, welcome, in particular, perhaps, to Britain's
:00:43. > :00:47.parliamentarians. They have a last relatively calm Sunday morning
:00:47. > :00:52.before Parliament returns tomorrow. Will Labour keep its conference
:00:52. > :00:55.season bleed? Will the coalition resolve its differences? Will
:00:55. > :01:00.ministers confront Brussels? Will Thrasher Mitchell stay as chief
:01:00. > :01:05.whip? The battle is back on. There is lots about the awful Jimmy
:01:05. > :01:10.Savile story, which has caused deep tensions here at the BBC. We are
:01:10. > :01:13.going to be talking about that and much more with our reviewers,
:01:13. > :01:17.broadcaster and best-selling author Clare Balding and that Sage
:01:17. > :01:22.Observer from The Times newspaper, David Aaronovitch. You get the
:01:22. > :01:26.impression from the papers that the biggest headaches are for the
:01:26. > :01:29.Ministry of Defence. The Mail on Sunday says that there will be
:01:29. > :01:33.marchers on parliament in protests against Army cuts, the first time
:01:33. > :01:43.that has happened since the days of all the Cromwell. As well as
:01:43. > :01:43.
:01:43. > :01:48.generals allegedly acting on your contracts. The defence secretary,
:01:48. > :01:54.Philip Hammond joins us to discuss that and more, including the exit
:01:54. > :01:58.from Afghanistan and the future of BAE, Britain's largest manufacturer.
:01:58. > :02:05.Also, David Cameron goes to Edinburgh to sign a deal with Alex
:02:05. > :02:08.Salmond on referendum for Scotland. It includes giving 16 and 17-year-
:02:08. > :02:12.olds are the vote and has been denounced already as a walkover by
:02:12. > :02:16.one leading Tory. Michael Moore has been at the heart of negotiations
:02:16. > :02:25.in Scotland. I have also been speaking to one of the legendary
:02:25. > :02:30.Pete Townshend, in his only television interview, to coincide
:02:30. > :02:35.with his autobiography, gives his account with the wild years with
:02:35. > :02:39.The Who, smashing guitars and breaking personal boundaries. He
:02:39. > :02:45.also talks about his arrest after a police investigation into child
:02:45. > :02:47.pornography on the internet. Good morning. The Ministry of
:02:47. > :02:50.Defence is to investigate allegations that former military
:02:50. > :02:53.chiefs offered to use their influence in Whitehall to help
:02:54. > :02:58.private firms win government contracts. Undercover reporters
:02:58. > :03:02.from the Sunday Times, posing as weapons manufacturers, claimed that
:03:02. > :03:12.retired senior officers offered to lobby ministers on their behalf.
:03:12. > :03:12.
:03:12. > :03:17.The MoD says it will be looking to Equipping our troops for battle in
:03:17. > :03:19.Afghanistan and elsewhere is expensive. It is a lucrative
:03:19. > :03:22.business for defence manufacturers. Former military personnel are
:03:22. > :03:28.allowed to work for defence companies in the private sector
:03:28. > :03:32.after retirement, but only after two years. The undercover reporters
:03:32. > :03:36.spoke to Admiral Trevor Soar, former commander of the Royal Navy,
:03:36. > :03:41.who retired earlier this year. have to be slightly careful about
:03:41. > :03:48.ministers. There is no reason I cannot see them, but there is some
:03:48. > :03:53.criteria on that. OK, how do you get around that? You basically
:03:53. > :03:58.ignore it. When confronted with the recording, he told the Sunday Times
:03:58. > :04:02.that he had not broken any rules. There is no suggestion any of the
:04:02. > :04:05.retired officers accepted any money from the fate lobbyists. In a
:04:05. > :04:10.statement, the Ministry of Defence said that former military officers
:04:10. > :04:14.have no influence over what MoD contracts are awarded. There will
:04:14. > :04:20.be an investigation to see if any rules were broken and a rigorous
:04:20. > :04:23.process is used for the approval of all equipment projects. This latest
:04:23. > :04:31.newspaper investigation will once again pose questions about the
:04:31. > :04:34.rules surrounding lobbyists at A former BBC executive has revealed
:04:34. > :04:39.that he questioned Jimmy Savile about allegations over his private
:04:39. > :04:43.life more than 20 years ago. It is the first evidence that the DJ was
:04:43. > :04:52.challenged about the rumours at a senior level in the BBC. Police now
:04:52. > :04:55.say that his abuse could have Welcome to January 1st, 1964...
:04:55. > :05:01.the time he presented the first edition of Top Of the Pops, police
:05:01. > :05:06.believe that Jimmy Savile may have been abusing stop they say that
:05:06. > :05:09.allegations date back to 1959, when he was in his early 30s and a
:05:09. > :05:14.dancehall manager in Leeds. The abuse is believed to have continued
:05:14. > :05:20.until 2006, when he was nearly 80. The number of likely victims now
:05:20. > :05:25.stands at 60. Derek Cherry was controller of Radio One in the 70s
:05:25. > :05:30.and 80s. He says he confronted the DJ over stories about him. What are
:05:30. > :05:34.all of these rumours we hear about you? He said, this is all nonsense.
:05:34. > :05:39.It is easy now to say, how could you just believe him like that? But
:05:39. > :05:45.there was no reason to disbelieve him. He was the sort of man that
:05:45. > :05:48.attracted rumours, after all. describes Savile as an eccentric,
:05:48. > :05:53.colourful character who never talked about his private life and
:05:53. > :06:02.did not socialise with other DJs. He said he was shocked and sickened
:06:02. > :06:05.Two NATO and four Afghan security personnel had been killed in a
:06:06. > :06:10.suicide bomb attack in Afghanistan. It happened in Kandahar province.
:06:10. > :06:14.NATO says one of those who died was a soldier, the other a civilian
:06:14. > :06:19.with coalition forces. Their nationality is not known. The
:06:19. > :06:21.Taliban have claimed responsibility. Here, the Ministry of Defence has
:06:21. > :06:24.announced that five Royal Marines have been charged with murder in
:06:24. > :06:28.connection with an incident alleged to have taken place in Afghanistan
:06:28. > :06:32.last year. A total of nine marines have been arrested as part of the
:06:32. > :06:37.inquiry. Four have since been released without charge.
:06:37. > :06:40.More than 30 animal disease experts have signed a letter urging the
:06:40. > :06:44.Government to reconsider controversial plans for a Banja
:06:44. > :06:51.cull to tackle TB in cattle. Badgers are thought to spread the
:06:51. > :06:55.disease. -- badger. The Government has given permission for pilot
:06:55. > :06:58.culls in Gloucester. The report says it could increase the risk of
:06:58. > :07:03.cattle getting TB. If you don't want to know what
:07:03. > :07:06.happened in the Korean Grand Prix, press your mute button now.
:07:06. > :07:11.Sebastian Vettel became the first driver to win three consecutive
:07:11. > :07:16.races this year as he took the chequered flag. Red Bull team-mate
:07:16. > :07:20.Mark Webber finished second. Fernando Alonso was third.
:07:20. > :07:27.Sebastian Vettel now leads the championships. I will be back with
:07:27. > :07:31.the headlines just before 10 The front pages, as usual. The
:07:31. > :07:34.Sunday Express has a story about a children's hospital in Bristol as
:07:34. > :07:40.its lead. Probably the most significant political story that
:07:40. > :07:44.you have not heard in the news is Michael Gove, off the record,
:07:44. > :07:48.admittedly, saying in the Mail on Sunday that he wants and in or out
:07:48. > :07:52.referendum on Europe and he would vote to leave Europe. Interesting
:07:52. > :07:56.repercussions inside the Government, I'm sure, on that. The Independent
:07:56. > :07:59.on Sunday is leading on the return of land mines. We have heard about
:07:59. > :08:05.the Sunday Times story already. There is the Sunday Telegraph,
:08:05. > :08:09.again, leading on the Savile story. A huge amount about Savile in the
:08:09. > :08:14.newspapers, talking about police blunders. The Observer, an
:08:14. > :08:24.interesting story, an interview with Judi Dench. And talking about
:08:24. > :08:26.
:08:26. > :08:29.scientists attacking Banja cull. -- I think we should start with the
:08:30. > :08:35.Savile story, in every single newspaper and making for unpleasant
:08:35. > :08:37.reading? The Sunday Telegraph has it as its lead. Not all the
:08:38. > :08:41.newspapers do. But all of the Sunday newspapers have a
:08:41. > :08:46.significant section on it of some kind or another. What it is
:08:46. > :08:51.reflecting his... How would you describe this, an avalanche of
:08:51. > :08:59.material coming out, a huge number of accusations. We heard the figure
:08:59. > :09:04.of 60 today, it is not going to stay at 60. If somebody has been
:09:04. > :09:08.active over four decades, it is going to be a large number. It is
:09:08. > :09:11.interesting how many different, big organisations are fearful that the
:09:11. > :09:18.finger will be pointed at them. In many ways, everybody has been
:09:18. > :09:22.complicit in this, for falling for him. The BBC has been particularly
:09:22. > :09:25.in the firing line, for obvious reasons. Take us through some of
:09:25. > :09:31.those stories. The latest development is the Independent on
:09:31. > :09:35.Sunday, the row within the BBC between... Well, investigation
:09:35. > :09:39.between what happened, why was the Newsnight story dropped, what were
:09:39. > :09:43.the circumstances? A piece in the Independent on Sunday talking about
:09:43. > :09:47.what George Entwistle asked. Basic the saying that he did not ask
:09:47. > :09:52.anything about content. He said, that is great, fantastic, get on
:09:52. > :09:55.with it. Thanks for letting me know, actually. People right at the top
:09:55. > :09:59.of the BBC are struggling and are being challenged by people inside
:09:59. > :10:05.the BBC and by newspapers, many of whom have no reason to love the
:10:05. > :10:10.BBC? That is true. For a while, I was executive at the BBC in the
:10:10. > :10:14.news division. I have to say, I do not by the notion that somehow or
:10:14. > :10:20.other there was an internal decision to try to suppress this.
:10:20. > :10:26.That is not the way the place works. To give you a very small example, I
:10:26. > :10:30.happen to know that the Today Programme was leaned upon, or
:10:30. > :10:33.attempted to be leaned upon, during the Russell Brand crisis by
:10:33. > :10:37.somebody in the director general office, when he was away, saying,
:10:37. > :10:41.can't you stop doing this, we've had enough of this? The Today
:10:41. > :10:48.Programme did what I think Newsnight would do, told them to
:10:48. > :10:53.take a running jump. We are not great to have this. When the
:10:53. > :10:58.director general came back, he corrected that. It's not really the
:10:58. > :11:01.issue of what Newsnight did or did not do, it is the 40 years that
:11:01. > :11:05.precedes it. All of the institutions, including the BBC,
:11:05. > :11:12.are owed a duty of care. It feels like a version of the Catholic
:11:12. > :11:16.Church. It was probably after Esther Rantzen and trialled line
:11:16. > :11:25.that the national mood, as David has written, changed so
:11:26. > :11:29.dramatically? -- ChildLine. He was the great entertainer and great
:11:29. > :11:36.fundraiser. Lance Armstrong has not been accused of any sexual
:11:36. > :11:40.shenanigans, but it is not entirely dissimilar in terms of the fallen
:11:40. > :11:46.idol. The great cyclist who has been found to be doping throughout
:11:46. > :11:50.his career? Two massive pieces. The Sunday Times has been consistent,
:11:50. > :11:54.there have been superb on stories. People were frightened of Lance
:11:54. > :11:58.Armstrong. He was very intimidating. He threatened all the time to take
:11:58. > :12:02.out injunctions to see people. Jimmy Savile did the same thing. He
:12:02. > :12:06.was very physically intimidating and people are scared of him. These
:12:06. > :12:11.are two people that were almost... They were toughing it out so much,
:12:11. > :12:15.they would almost hint as if they might be guilty and then say, but I
:12:15. > :12:19.am untouchable. It's a strange state of knowing an unknown. A
:12:19. > :12:22.large number of people, somewhere, knows something is going on, as
:12:22. > :12:27.with Lance Armstrong. They know what they are saying about his
:12:27. > :12:34.character, publicly, is undermined by what they know about him
:12:34. > :12:37.privately. But the rest of people, who do not know that, they have to
:12:38. > :12:42.buy the winning or the charity raising at face value. They have to
:12:42. > :12:47.have this guy as a complete hero. It's a bizarre situation. It is
:12:47. > :12:54.terrifying, because it says are not about the nature of celebrity. -- a
:12:54. > :12:58.lot about the nature of celebrity. You become slightly untouchable.
:12:58. > :13:01.made the point about being brazen. If you are not brazen about it, if
:13:01. > :13:07.you show self-doubt, you don't get away with it. People are not ready
:13:07. > :13:11.for the brazen person. If you are going to tell a lie, tell a big one,
:13:11. > :13:16.it always used to be said. We mentioned the Sunday Times story
:13:16. > :13:19.about the generals. This is a fascinating one. It is a classic,
:13:19. > :13:26.old fashioned sting operation, undercover reporters pretending, in
:13:26. > :13:28.this case, to the South Korean drone manufacturers? Yes, I am sure
:13:28. > :13:34.that South Korean drone manufacturers are very well known
:13:34. > :13:38.to generals. This is a Sunday Times scoop, as you say, a classic sting.
:13:38. > :13:41.You send somebody, you phone the number of people up, see if they
:13:41. > :13:45.are interested, represent yourself as somebody with some money to
:13:45. > :13:49.offer. What I find interesting about this, what they have done is
:13:49. > :13:55.wrong and it is clearly... Some of it is actually against regulations
:13:55. > :13:58.and so on. It's also a bit tacky, using a memorial service,
:13:58. > :14:02.Remembrance get-togethers and so want to put pressure on? Hugely.
:14:02. > :14:07.But it reminds me of the scene in the Bible when Jesus is tempted by
:14:07. > :14:10.Satan, look over all of this. People come up and say, we will
:14:10. > :14:14.give you vast amounts of money for essentially doing nothing. Having a
:14:14. > :14:18.word with somebody. We will give you �100,000 if you have a word
:14:18. > :14:24.with somebody on Remembrance Sunday. These generals did themselves up by
:14:24. > :14:29.saying, yes, I can get you in touch with them. Knowing full well that
:14:29. > :14:33.nobody is going to buy a South Korean drone because an ex-general
:14:33. > :14:37.had a word on Remembrance Sunday. But they think the people they are
:14:37. > :14:41.dealing with are fools, when they are themselves the fools. People
:14:41. > :14:45.think this is not really good journalism, but I wonder how many
:14:45. > :14:48.people have decided, people that have been in the public eye,
:14:48. > :14:52.decided they are not going to engage in activities like this just
:14:52. > :14:55.in case the person who called them up is the Sunday Times? I think now
:14:55. > :15:05.you have to assume if somebody comes up with a large amount of
:15:05. > :15:11.
:15:11. > :15:17.money, almost certainly they are The joy of Sunday papers has to be
:15:17. > :15:22.the supplements, and the Observer has a very rare interview with Judi
:15:22. > :15:28.Dench. She doesn't often give interviews to newspaper or
:15:28. > :15:34.television. It is such a thrill to read about her at length. Great
:15:34. > :15:40.comic timing, greater awareness of the ridiculousness of this world,
:15:40. > :15:45.and she works at such a rate. She only stopped twice, once for the
:15:45. > :15:50.birth of her daughter and once when her husband was ill. She basically
:15:50. > :15:56.says she thinks it is our business to do as much as we can. She wants
:15:56. > :16:01.to try different things, take risks. The amazing thing about her career
:16:01. > :16:06.is how long people talk to see that she can be a star on screen as well
:16:06. > :16:13.as theatre. She said she went to a screen test and they basically said
:16:13. > :16:20.everything is wrong with your face. She says I think it is always
:16:20. > :16:26.appalling to see yourself on film. As I can't help but think, people
:16:26. > :16:33.said to me when they knew I was coming on with you today, when is
:16:33. > :16:37.she going to takeover the football commentary? It is like a national
:16:37. > :16:42.treasure on national treasure. thought you were going to choose
:16:42. > :16:50.the bestseller lists. I haven't looked actually. I don't think you
:16:51. > :16:54.need to look. You haven't pushed Andrew to number two, have you?
:16:54. > :17:03.Where can all agree that people want a really good history book for
:17:03. > :17:08.Christmas. I actually, on my father, rather frighteningly, a lot of the
:17:08. > :17:12.book has my father in it and I am quite harsh on how he was when we
:17:12. > :17:16.were children so I knew he was going to do an interview with a
:17:16. > :17:20.journalist I have known virtually since I started working, and I
:17:20. > :17:27.looked with horror. It is a full- page interview in the Sunday
:17:27. > :17:33.Telegraph with a nice interview of my father's dog, he will be
:17:33. > :17:38.thrilled with that. It looks absolutely gorgeous. At least she
:17:38. > :17:46.says he is the undoubted star that leaps from every page with the tact
:17:46. > :17:49.of an untrained gorilla. I rang him that day of the Olympics and he had
:17:50. > :17:53.watched the women's boxing and the dressage, and completely changed
:17:53. > :17:59.his view on women being able to box and thought the dressage was
:17:59. > :18:09.fantastic. Clay its move to the Michael Gove
:18:09. > :18:10.
:18:10. > :18:16.story, talking about women's boxing. There was never going to be a good
:18:16. > :18:21.segue! When friends of Michael Gove have direct quote, it means he has
:18:21. > :18:28.said it at some party. It is him talking and it says that he said he
:18:28. > :18:34.is ready to quit Brussels. What he means by that as I gather, we want
:18:34. > :18:38.to renegotiate and the whip hand we hold over you is that you don't
:18:38. > :18:43.give us our way then we are prepared to go. I have to say, I
:18:43. > :18:47.don't read Europeans as responding to that very much but obviously he
:18:47. > :18:53.thinks it does. The political significance is that David Cameron
:18:53. > :18:58.has been trying to put off the idea of a referendum. He wants to
:18:58. > :19:05.renegotiate certain areas and bring that relationship back some time
:19:05. > :19:12.and then have a referendum. Michael Gove is saying it must be an in or
:19:12. > :19:22.out referendum. He has an elaborate plan, goes through the election and
:19:22. > :19:29.
:19:29. > :19:36.starts with the re-evaluation of what Russell -- Brussels does. I
:19:36. > :19:41.can't read this as helpful book to Montgomerie has already sent a
:19:41. > :19:46.tweet that he believes eight other Cabinet members share Michael
:19:46. > :19:50.Gove's position. We have run out of time sadly, we were going to do
:19:50. > :19:54.mitt Romney but he will have to wait on to learn of the week. I was
:19:54. > :19:59.in Norfolk in Cambridgeshire yesterday and it was fantastic.
:19:59. > :20:09.Wonderful autumn light and that Chris good to be alive sunshine.
:20:09. > :20:14.
:20:14. > :20:18.What is the out look for the rest More of that sunshine on offer for
:20:19. > :20:26.some time today. Still chilly, but it should be right for many later
:20:26. > :20:31.today. We have got a little bit of rain, with showers piling in across
:20:31. > :20:35.eastern parts of Scotland whereas in the West it is generally dry and
:20:35. > :20:39.bright. Sunny spells, some light showers, a scattering of light
:20:39. > :20:45.showers across northern England with many places avoiding them, but
:20:45. > :20:52.more persistent rain across parts of Norfolk for instance. The
:20:52. > :20:57.Midlands look fine and bride, if somewhat chilly. We could see some
:20:57. > :21:03.more persistent rain heading in here to the south-east by this
:21:03. > :21:07.evening. We have dry clear conditions for many places so fog
:21:07. > :21:12.overnight could be a problem. In the countryside, temperatures will
:21:13. > :21:17.be hovering a degree either side of freezing overnight. It is all
:21:17. > :21:21.change for the week ahead - we will see rain at times, it will be
:21:21. > :21:31.turning windy and milder. Enjoy the autumnal sunshine for the next
:21:31. > :21:32.
:21:32. > :21:34.Barring any last-minute hitch, David Cameron and Scotland's First
:21:34. > :21:39.Minister Alex Salmond will sign an agreement tomorrow for a referendum
:21:39. > :21:44.on Scottish independence. The Prime Minister has four his argument they
:21:44. > :21:50.should be a single question, but Alex Salmond has won over the
:21:50. > :21:55.timing in 2014 and how the question will be phrased and who get to vote.
:21:55. > :21:59.The Secretary of State for Scotland Michael Moore is here. You were at
:21:59. > :22:05.the centre of these negotiations in Scotland. Firstly, are we right
:22:05. > :22:09.that this agreement will be unveiled and signed tomorrow?
:22:09. > :22:12.have reached agreement with the Deputy First Minister Nicola
:22:12. > :22:16.Sturgeon which has gone to the Prime Minister and the First
:22:16. > :22:21.Minister and he will sign that tomorrow in Edinburgh. The context
:22:21. > :22:25.is very important because we are setting up to allow people in
:22:25. > :22:31.Scotland to make the most important political decision in 300 years,
:22:31. > :22:35.the choice as to whether we stay in the United Kingdom or go our own
:22:35. > :22:40.separate way. The challenge that has been placed to both governments
:22:40. > :22:44.in the last few months is to make sure we get a referendum which is
:22:44. > :22:48.legal, it is fair and decisive and did his made in Scotland. When
:22:48. > :22:53.people see the detail of what will announce tomorrow, they will see we
:22:53. > :22:58.have achieved that. And it is going to be a straightforward question,
:22:58. > :23:03.there will not be a further devolution Max question. That is
:23:03. > :23:06.something that was important to David Cameron. Alex Salmond wants
:23:06. > :23:12.it in 2014 because it is the anniversary of the Battle of
:23:12. > :23:22.Bannockburn and he wants to be able to phrase the question, and he
:23:22. > :23:25.
:23:25. > :23:30.wants 16th and 17 year-olds to vote. It is premature for anybody to
:23:30. > :23:35.reach any views on whether it has been a walkover. I think people can
:23:35. > :23:42.have confidence that when they see the agreement it will ensure that
:23:42. > :23:47.both governments' set of objectives have been achieved. You don't think
:23:47. > :23:52.Alex Salmond has run rings around do? No, because we were looking to
:23:52. > :23:59.make sure we had a referendum that was legal. 18 months ago when he
:23:59. > :24:03.won his historic victory in the Scottish parliament, won a majority
:24:03. > :24:09.there, there was this pledge to honour and we are helping him to do
:24:09. > :24:13.that. Let's make it legal and fair, and that goes to the heart of the
:24:13. > :24:18.rules of engagement. Let's make sure it is decisive because we need
:24:19. > :24:24.to make sure that once it has been decided it will be resolved. Why is
:24:24. > :24:28.it happening in 24 team? David Cameron said again and again he
:24:28. > :24:33.wanted it more quickly. There is a good argument for saying it should
:24:33. > :24:43.be sooner rather than later, but we are agreeing the details of this
:24:43. > :24:50.progress should be made in Scotland. This will allow us 2, having sorted
:24:51. > :24:55.out the process, to move on to the big issues. It puts up in lights
:24:55. > :25:00.the key issues at stake which have been buried away. David Cameron did
:25:00. > :25:03.not want to wait 18 months, and it gives Alex Salmond more time to
:25:03. > :25:08.build up the case for independence so he will be pleased with that.
:25:08. > :25:12.am happy to take whatever length of time it takes to investigate the
:25:12. > :25:17.different issues. If you look at the key issues about the economy
:25:17. > :25:24.and our place in the world, there is a strong positive case for
:25:24. > :25:30.Scotland continuing to be part of the United Kingdom. Explained to us
:25:30. > :25:34.how you are going to explain to 16 and 17 year-olds, who will get the
:25:34. > :25:39.vote for the Scottish referendum, a massive question for the future of
:25:39. > :25:43.their country and Britain, but then will not be able to vote in the
:25:43. > :25:48.next general election? That is a bizarre decision, isn't it?
:25:48. > :25:54.will have to wait for the detail tomorrow about how this will be
:25:54. > :26:00.sorted out. As a Liberal-Democrat I am comfortable with the idea of 16
:26:00. > :26:04.and 17 year-olds participating in elections. What I recognised is
:26:04. > :26:09.There is not a consensus about that at Westminster. What the debate
:26:09. > :26:15.will enable in future it is work out how that debate plays through.
:26:15. > :26:20.It is the Government's position moving towards them getting the
:26:20. > :26:26.vote generally? There is no consensus on this at Westminster.
:26:26. > :26:31.As a Liberal Democrats I am perfectly comfortable that 16 and
:26:31. > :26:37.17 year-olds should get the vote. We are not creating any precedent
:26:37. > :26:43.here. In Scotland, when they have had referenda in the past on health
:26:43. > :26:47.boards and the like, they have set the franchise themselves and
:26:47. > :26:53.included that age group. It if it is going to happen in Scotland for
:26:53. > :26:56.this, this is an issue which will become much more hard to push away
:26:56. > :27:01.for other elections including Westminster elections. This is back
:27:01. > :27:05.on the table as a pretty big change for Westminster as well, surely?
:27:06. > :27:10.The will be a lively debate about a lot of the detail about this
:27:10. > :27:14.process, but I am delighted we are to historic moment where we will
:27:14. > :27:18.have agreements between the UK and Scottish government which allows us
:27:19. > :27:25.to get on with this referendum. The big issues about what is special
:27:25. > :27:30.about the UK, none of that has been terribly well examined. Unionists
:27:30. > :27:34.have been guilty in the past for taking a lot of that for granted.
:27:34. > :27:39.What about the question of some sort of fresh hold or margin there
:27:39. > :27:42.has to be reached before independence is triggered. Plenty
:27:42. > :27:48.of people argue we should not be a straight forward numerical victory
:27:48. > :27:52.of those voting. I have never at any stage in this process had
:27:52. > :27:59.anyone suggest there should be hurdles. New in the past have
:27:59. > :28:04.studied Scottish politics closely, you saw what a hurdle did in 1979.
:28:04. > :28:10.This has to be a straightforward process, a framework of rules
:28:10. > :28:20.accepted by each side to focus on the big issue of the economy, about
:28:20. > :28:22.
:28:22. > :28:26.Scotland's place in the world and house secure we are. In your water
:28:26. > :28:31.has come will Scotland vote for independence? That Paul has a 25%
:28:31. > :28:37.lead for those who want to stay part of the UK. When people examine
:28:37. > :28:44.our opportunities, how much more secure we are, they return to
:28:44. > :28:49.saying we should stay part of the Thank you. I will be interviewing
:28:49. > :28:53.Alex Salmond next Sunday. Now, along with the Beatles and Rolling
:28:54. > :28:59.Stones, The Who have been hailed as one of the great Trinity of British
:28:59. > :29:04.rock bands from the 1960s. They were notorious for their outrageous
:29:04. > :29:08.stage performances and indulged in rock'n'roll excesses but The Who
:29:09. > :29:12.also pushed boundaries musically, driven by the guitarist and
:29:12. > :29:18.songwriter Pete Townshend who went on to have a successful career
:29:18. > :29:20.himself. A few years ago he was arrested and later accepted a
:29:20. > :29:24.police caution during an investigation into child
:29:24. > :29:29.pornography on the internet. Pete Townshend has just published his
:29:29. > :29:33.autobiography telling his side of the story. When we met recently, we
:29:33. > :29:43.began by talking about his childhood in a musical family in
:29:43. > :29:46.
:29:46. > :29:52.My earliest memory was being on the band bus, pretending to drive, with
:29:52. > :29:58.all of these drunken Scottish band members on the bus. My father was
:29:58. > :30:04.an incredibly handsome man, a beautiful musician. He never really
:30:04. > :30:09.took me seriously as a musician. Then, suddenly, yes, our music,
:30:09. > :30:15.this silly scare for all that came out of the Graeme Rivett band
:30:15. > :30:19.started to infect, in a sense, particularly television. For me, it
:30:19. > :30:29.wasn't just about overthrowing my dad, it was that I could see this
:30:29. > :30:36.
:30:37. > :30:43.schism, the function of pop music One of the themes in the book is
:30:44. > :30:49.that, far from being simply a way of letting off steam, even the
:30:49. > :30:53.sound of rock music, as it develops, and you are one of the people
:30:53. > :30:59.building that sounded the feedback, he is a response to the horrors of
:30:59. > :31:05.the war and also rising fear about being blown to pieces in a coming
:31:05. > :31:10.nuclear war? I think that is right. I think our sense of inability to
:31:10. > :31:14.articulate it, or have a right to do so, we had not fought, a lot of
:31:14. > :31:19.us had not even been called up. We felt this was off-limits. But, none
:31:19. > :31:24.the less, we felt very affected by the war years, the way that our
:31:24. > :31:29.parents and grandparents had been damaged by it. Like a lot of bands
:31:29. > :31:33.of the time, there is a division between the art-school guy is to
:31:33. > :31:42.have, perhaps, a grander vision of what music might be and, well, in
:31:42. > :31:48.the case of The Who, the sheet- metal worker's. That seems to be a
:31:48. > :31:52.tension that lasts all of the way through The Who? I would flip it. I
:31:52. > :31:57.have never been interested in the Diana, I have never been interested
:31:58. > :32:03.in the kudos or the money. -- the glamour. I just wanted to be an
:32:03. > :32:07.artist and took serve my it audience. What is wonderful for me
:32:07. > :32:12.is that... I will not swear, but this is what they normally do, they
:32:12. > :32:17.say, I was brought up, I was a young kid, quad Ruthenia came along
:32:17. > :32:27.and it changed my... Life. That is what I wanted. And that is what
:32:27. > :32:27.
:32:28. > :32:36.happened. I think what Roger wanted was to escape. Being like Elvis,
:32:36. > :32:41.you know. In his last year at school, he used to have is a --
:32:41. > :32:47.zip-up trousers. This was before skinny jeans. He was a teddy boy,
:32:47. > :32:57.you know? He still says to this day, that was the look. The Teddy Boy
:32:57. > :32:57.
:32:57. > :33:05.luck. Let's talk about a few of the songs. My Generation. That was
:33:05. > :33:12.extraordinary? And The Stutter? Stutter, I wanted it to be about
:33:12. > :33:17.the in articulacy of the audience. I wanted to make the singer sound
:33:17. > :33:22.like he couldn't explain himself will stop I came up with that
:33:22. > :33:29.stutter. But that was actually something that came from two R&B
:33:29. > :33:39.artists, John Lee Hooker. Stuttering blows? That's right,
:33:39. > :33:45.
:33:45. > :33:53.From early on, you had ambitions to write rock opera, on a bigger scale.
:33:53. > :33:57.And Tommy is the most famous example. What you say about Pinball
:33:57. > :34:02.Wizard, that comes a very late in the process? It was actually
:34:02. > :34:07.started off as not so much wanting to write a rock opera, but to write
:34:07. > :34:14.a story of a spiritual journey of a young man. If you think about when
:34:14. > :34:19.I started to write in 1967 and 1968, it was what was going on at the
:34:19. > :34:23.time. It was almost finished and we brought in this young journalist,
:34:23. > :34:29.Nick Higham, who have was writing for The Guardian at the time, I
:34:29. > :34:35.think, OBE Observer. He came in and listened and I said, what do you
:34:36. > :34:43.think? He said, it's OK. We said, just OK? He said, it's a bit cheesy,
:34:43. > :34:49.or whatever the word was at the time. It's about a guru? And I said,
:34:49. > :34:56.yes, but he's deaf and blind, and he hears music. He said, that is
:34:56. > :35:00.making it worse! I knew he was a pinball fan, cos we used to play
:35:00. > :35:05.together. I said, what about instead of being a spiritual guru,
:35:05. > :35:11.he was a pinball champion? He said, I like it. I said, would you give
:35:11. > :35:21.it a good review? He said, if it was about a pinball champion, I'll
:35:21. > :35:27.give it five stars and an extra # From Soho down to Brighton, I
:35:27. > :35:36.must have played them all. # Up but I've never seen anything
:35:36. > :35:42.like him, in any amusement hall... In terms of global reputation,
:35:42. > :35:47.Woodstock is important for you? Definitive. The smashing of the
:35:47. > :35:53.guitars, you have to talk about the smashed guitar on the wall. You
:35:53. > :35:57.must tell us how that started. was trying to get new sounds out of
:35:57. > :36:03.the guitar. That is what I was doing on stage. I used to going to
:36:03. > :36:07.Jim Morrison's music shop and say, give me bigger weapons. From that
:36:07. > :36:17.came at the antics with the guitar, putting it in front of the speaker.
:36:17. > :36:26.
:36:26. > :36:29.It was an art movement, or the destruction? The art school
:36:29. > :36:39.connection was one where the guitar breaks and suddenly I think, what
:36:39. > :36:40.
:36:40. > :36:46.do why do with it? And I decided to finish it off. Roger was saying,
:36:46. > :36:51.don't do any more, he thought he could repair it. I had another one,
:36:51. > :36:59.a lesser one, and I continued like I meant to do it. The word got
:36:59. > :37:02.around. I realised that what I had done was crazy. I also realised it
:37:02. > :37:08.would be seen as something of a gimmick. But I also knew that I
:37:08. > :37:14.felt that I had destroyed the tools of production. There was a finality
:37:14. > :37:18.to it. Then I went on and did us a couple of million more times.
:37:18. > :37:21.of the interesting things, you never really completely signed up
:37:21. > :37:27.for the rock and roll lifestyle. There is the drink, the women and
:37:27. > :37:33.the rest of it. But you were quite interested in staying faithful, you
:37:33. > :37:38.are not going completely... I'm trying to find the right words, not
:37:38. > :37:45.completely bonkers? I tried, partly because my marriage was such a good
:37:45. > :37:49.one. My wife was fantastic, art school, we were very close. The
:37:49. > :37:53.Keith Moon years, they were difficult to resist because he was
:37:53. > :38:01.so funny. He was so funny and so entertaining. The road was
:38:01. > :38:07.miserable. It was just miserable. He made it bearable. One got drawn
:38:07. > :38:12.into it. Let me ask you about the terrible tsunami of publicity that
:38:12. > :38:16.affect a delay to Ron, on the child pornography issue. -- affected you
:38:16. > :38:21.later on. It's pretty obvious, looking at your book, you were
:38:21. > :38:25.badly abused, probably, as a small boy. You had this very strange
:38:25. > :38:32.grandmother. Once you start to look through the songs, it is there, a
:38:32. > :38:37.lot of the time. There is pain and protest all of the way through the
:38:37. > :38:42.story of The Who? I think there is. That is sad for me. When I was
:38:42. > :38:48.writing those songs, I don't think I was aware of that. In the way
:38:48. > :38:53.that I am now. What actually happened, for me, is that when I
:38:53. > :38:59.was working to do so be quite simple, to help provide funds for a
:38:59. > :39:04.helpline. I opened a newspaper, there I am, on the front page. From
:39:04. > :39:09.that moment on, I have had to pull everything to my bosom and go,
:39:09. > :39:14.listen, I cannot deal with this in public. For those people watching,
:39:14. > :39:18.the absolutely clear, you did not ever download child pornography?
:39:18. > :39:22.Absolutely not, not only did I not download it, I did not look at it
:39:22. > :39:27.and I had no intention to look at it. The police came in a swamp,
:39:27. > :39:31.they took every computer, every videotape, every desk, 11 computers
:39:31. > :39:37.and found absolutely nothing. This was driven, I'm afraid, by the
:39:37. > :39:40.press. It was driven by the hysteria of the time. The other
:39:40. > :39:46.thing that people find difficult to understand is why, since you had
:39:46. > :39:49.not downloaded anything wrong or sordid, all of the rest of it, you
:39:50. > :39:54.accepted a police caution and, as it were, held your hands up rather
:39:54. > :39:59.than going to clear your name. Which you could have done? I don't
:39:59. > :40:03.think I could have done. I think by the time I got out of the other end
:40:03. > :40:07.of the court case, what the Crown Prosecution Service told me was
:40:07. > :40:11.that my case was so high-profile that they could not let it go. I
:40:11. > :40:20.knew that I would go to court and I was worried that I would be in the
:40:20. > :40:25.witness box and a clever JP would get under my skin and I would
:40:25. > :40:30.explode at him. That is what I am afraid of, this sense that the
:40:30. > :40:36.person that you put in the witness box is a four and a half year-old
:40:36. > :40:40.boy. And I cannot go there. I don't think I thought of the significance
:40:40. > :40:44.of the consequences of being labelled as a sex offender. Part of
:40:44. > :40:50.the business of writing the book is to try to clear that whole episode
:40:50. > :40:58.and go back to being the great musician that you are. Let me ask
:40:58. > :41:08.you about what is going on musically, at the moment. I am
:41:08. > :41:08.
:41:08. > :41:15.working on what I call a piece about a young man who abandons
:41:15. > :41:19.music in order to address sounds that he is hearing in the air,
:41:19. > :41:25.which are sort of musical. So I had a chance to try to create that
:41:25. > :41:28.music. I have a chance to write the music that he wrote when he was a
:41:28. > :41:33.young man. That is what I am working on. It is adventurous and
:41:33. > :41:42.audacious. You have been very generous with your time. A final
:41:42. > :41:45.question, I must ask you about the relationship with Roger Daltrey. It
:41:45. > :41:49.seems like a very intense, difficult marriage where you cannot
:41:49. > :41:56.live together and you cannot live without each other I do? I think it
:41:56. > :42:01.is probably as good as it is going to get. He spoke for me when I
:42:01. > :42:04.could not. He spoke to me when I had been instructed to keep quiet.
:42:04. > :42:11.It was great that he did so, because he knows me better than
:42:11. > :42:15.anybody. We are perceived to be at war, but we are not really at war.
:42:15. > :42:19.What we are trying to do, and we are much more aware of it as we
:42:19. > :42:29.approach old age, what we are trying to do is we are trying to
:42:29. > :42:32.
:42:32. > :42:42.find union. We are realising that # People try to put us down, just
:42:42. > :42:43.
:42:43. > :42:49.When we played at the Olympics, it was quite strange. There we were,
:42:49. > :42:55.on this massive stage, they put the fire out, bad timing, while we were
:42:55. > :43:02.on stage. This sense that this should be a defining, enclosing
:43:02. > :43:12.moment, and it wasn't. The story goes on. Philip Townsend, thank you
:43:12. > :43:13.
:43:13. > :43:16.very much for talking to us. -- Pete Townshend. We are going to be
:43:16. > :43:20.putting out a longer version of that interview, including some
:43:20. > :43:23.guitar-playing, on the website. It's exactly a year since Philip
:43:23. > :43:27.Hammond was appointed Defence Secretary. Any hopes of celebrating
:43:27. > :43:31.a quiet anniversary had been blown away. There are multiple headaches
:43:31. > :43:34.facing him, notably the Sunday Times's allegations that retired
:43:34. > :43:40.top military brass are willing to lobby on behalf of defence
:43:40. > :43:44.contractors. Philip Hammond is with me now. This is a classic sting
:43:44. > :43:48.operation, of course. None the less, a series of extremely eminent
:43:48. > :43:53.people who appear to be prepared to use events like Remembrance
:43:53. > :43:58.celebrations, commemorations, private dinners and so on, to push
:43:58. > :44:02.the interests of defence companies. What is your view of this? First of
:44:02. > :44:06.all, I think the revelations are deeply damaging to the individuals
:44:06. > :44:10.concerned and their reputations. I would like to be clear that there
:44:10. > :44:14.is no way that retired officers influence the way that military
:44:14. > :44:19.equipment is procured. I am satisfied that the system that we
:44:19. > :44:24.have is completely robust. But there is an issue, firstly about
:44:25. > :44:29.whether any rules have been broken. Clearly, at least one, possibly
:44:29. > :44:33.more of the individuals named in the Sunday Times piece were still
:44:33. > :44:38.under the terms of the two year restriction that applies after they
:44:38. > :44:43.have left the service. Secondly, I think we have to look at the level
:44:43. > :44:47.of access that we give retired officers to the MoD and to serving
:44:48. > :44:52.officers. There are many, many reasons why it is sensible for the
:44:52. > :44:55.MoD to maintain contact with retired officers. They often asked
:44:55. > :44:58.by people like yourselves to comment on things that are going on
:44:59. > :45:05.in the defence area. But if they are refusing that access for
:45:05. > :45:14.commercial purposes, we will have to tighten it up or shut it down. -
:45:14. > :45:18.- abusing that accessible stopped Hardy you feel about somebody
:45:18. > :45:22.sitting next your secretary at dinner, with part of the purpose
:45:22. > :45:25.being to tap him on the shoulder about something? Knowing my
:45:25. > :45:29.permanent secretary, I arm relaxed about it. He will be totally immune
:45:29. > :45:37.to that kind of approach. What we have seen on these operations
:45:37. > :45:42.before his people bigging up there qualities and what they can do.
:45:42. > :45:45.I here a lot of bravado. People who are talking about things they have
:45:45. > :45:55.said or done at events. I don't remember any of those things
:45:55. > :46:05.
:46:05. > :46:11.This source says I have to be careful lobbying ministers. How do
:46:11. > :46:21.you get around that? You basically they ignore it, he said, which
:46:21. > :46:26.suggests the rules don't matter. The air is a two-year rule during
:46:26. > :46:31.which they are required to abide by the advice they committee gives. If
:46:32. > :46:36.we find people are not taking that advice and not abiding by the
:46:36. > :46:42.advice they are given, we will need to look at whether there are steps
:46:42. > :46:47.we can take to shut down their access to ministers and officials.
:46:47. > :46:52.So you are going to look again at the rules? It is looking at how
:46:52. > :46:58.they are up and forced. Military officers don't have contract in the
:46:58. > :47:02.way civil servants do. They are appointed by the Sovereign, but the
:47:02. > :47:08.company's these people would be offering services to rely on the
:47:08. > :47:12.MoD as their principal customer, and if we were to make it clear to
:47:12. > :47:18.companies that the kind of lobbying that is being talked about here
:47:18. > :47:22.will damage them, that will be quite effective. I am putting to
:47:22. > :47:25.you newspaper stories, but it is a day to do that. There is an
:47:26. > :47:31.interesting story about the second Battalion of the Royal Regiment of
:47:31. > :47:37.Fusiliers. Are we going to have a debate about that? It is a debate
:47:38. > :47:44.about Arnie cuts, and in this March there will be serving officers
:47:44. > :47:48.taking place. It hasn't happened since the days of Oliver Cromwell,
:47:48. > :47:53.serving soldiers marching in protest. They will presumably be
:47:53. > :47:57.breaking their contract? It hasn't happened and I don't expect it will
:47:57. > :48:01.happen. The what would you do if it did? That is an issue for the
:48:01. > :48:06.military chain of command, and one of the things that is very
:48:06. > :48:14.important in my job that I understand what my responsibilities
:48:14. > :48:18.are, and I don't meddle in what are the military's responsibilities.
:48:18. > :48:22.Convey be court-martialled if they did? If they turned up in uniform
:48:22. > :48:26.and tried to march towards Parliament, that would be very
:48:26. > :48:34.serious. We try to take a common sense approach to these things but
:48:34. > :48:38.I hadn't heard before I read this story to date of anything like this.
:48:38. > :48:43.I think what will actually happen is a few ex officers from this
:48:43. > :48:49.particular the Italian will turn up, sit in the public gallery and
:48:49. > :48:54.watched the debate, and they are welcome to do so. We know there has
:48:54. > :49:00.been a black hole, as you describe it, in the defence budget and we
:49:00. > :49:04.know the regular army will be cut by about 20,000 people. You are now
:49:04. > :49:11.proposing to increase what is still known as the Territorial Army,
:49:11. > :49:16.part-time unpaid volunteers, by about 15,000. The not unpaid.
:49:16. > :49:21.paid at the same rate as full-time soldiers. Yes, when they are called
:49:21. > :49:27.up and they are serving, they get the same rates as serving soldiers.
:49:27. > :49:31.Yes, but for a strictly limited time, so they are cheaper and the
:49:32. > :49:37.question will be, is this an attempt to get an army on the
:49:37. > :49:41.cheap? The size of the regular army is being reduced to 82,000. That
:49:41. > :49:46.was one of the steps we had to take to rebalance the defence budget
:49:46. > :49:51.after dealing with the black hole Labour had created over many years.
:49:51. > :50:01.The senior army commanders are very confident that they can maintain
:50:01. > :50:13.
:50:13. > :50:18.the military out puts. We will need more reserves because we have
:50:18. > :50:23.restructured the army with a focused on the front end. We are
:50:23. > :50:29.taking out a larger percent of things like logistics, for which we
:50:29. > :50:32.have a limited need in peace time. When we mobilise or carry out an
:50:33. > :50:38.end during Operation like Afghanistan, then we have a much
:50:38. > :50:42.greater dependence on logistics. That is an ideal area for
:50:42. > :50:45.reservists to be involved in, people we can call up when we have
:50:45. > :50:50.an operation on going, but when we don't need the same volume of
:50:50. > :50:54.people during peacetime activities. They are called the Territorial
:50:54. > :50:58.Army because they defend the territory, but you are describing a
:50:58. > :51:04.force that will be regularly going overseas. Have you got a different
:51:04. > :51:08.name for them yet in your head? my head they are the army reserve
:51:08. > :51:18.and they will be an integral part of the regular Army. They will
:51:18. > :51:22.train with the regular army, do overseas training this year. I
:51:22. > :51:27.would like to see them renamed. It will take legislation, but when the
:51:27. > :51:32.opportunity for legislation comes along, we will change the name.
:51:32. > :51:38.will see the army reserve and it will look and feel different?
:51:38. > :51:47.we have already started issuing different army uniforms, they will
:51:47. > :51:53.have Army radios, regular army- style vehicles, so we are bringing
:51:53. > :51:56.their kit in line with the regular Army. Under the new construct, each
:51:56. > :52:02.territorial battalion will be paired with the regular Army
:52:02. > :52:07.battalion so that's there will be a permanent twinning arrangement.
:52:07. > :52:12.Presumably the soldiers who are being made redundant will be in the
:52:12. > :52:17.Army Reserve, or so you would hope? We are trying to make it more
:52:17. > :52:22.attractive for them to do a period in the army reserve. It helps with
:52:22. > :52:28.numbers, but it also helped to change the ethos of the army
:52:28. > :52:34.reserve if we have a significant cohort of them in there. I know you
:52:34. > :52:40.won't want to comment in detail on the five soldiers who have been
:52:40. > :52:45.charged for allegedly improperly killing somebody. Are you
:52:45. > :52:50.absolutely clear that the rules of engagement are known to everybody?
:52:50. > :52:54.Yes, absolutely clear. Everybody serving knows the rules of
:52:54. > :52:59.engagement. They carry cards in their uniforms with the rules on
:52:59. > :53:04.them in case they should need to remind themselves. I can't comment
:53:04. > :53:08.on the specifics of this case. Either way, they are not out there.
:53:08. > :53:13.This is something that happened last year, these people were back
:53:13. > :53:18.in the UK and they are not in Afghanistan at the moment. We are
:53:18. > :53:23.determined rules of engagement will be followed, abuse will be dealt
:53:23. > :53:28.with, and that is what is happening now. The army has paid a terrible
:53:28. > :53:34.price in terms of people mutilated and killed in Afghanistan, and in
:53:34. > :53:39.particular there has been a rise of the green on blue killings, the
:53:39. > :53:44.Afghans who we are supposed to be training, and helping to prepare
:53:44. > :53:48.their country, turning and killing our people. Does that not show that
:53:48. > :53:54.the strategy which you defended in the House of Commons not so long
:53:54. > :54:00.ago actually isn't working? No, I don't think that is right. We are
:54:00. > :54:05.very clear that we are going to end our combat mission at the end of 24
:54:05. > :54:12.team. George Osborne apparently wants to come back earlier. Let me
:54:12. > :54:17.come back to that in a moment. We will be out of the combat role in
:54:17. > :54:21.2014, in the meantime we are training and Afghan army and Afghan
:54:22. > :54:31.armed police. Do you really think they will be able to hold on
:54:31. > :54:37.against the teller banned after we are gone? -- against the Taliban.
:54:37. > :54:41.Transition is well-advanced. Our forces are mainly in the main
:54:41. > :54:47.operating bases, going out occasionally to support them, but
:54:47. > :54:53.by and large the Afghans, already, two years ahead, they are in
:54:53. > :55:01.control of security. And yet the Taliban can mount major attacks on
:55:01. > :55:06.Kabul itself. It doesn't feel like a secure situation. The attacks in
:55:06. > :55:10.Kabul, actually Kabul is remarkably quiet for a city at the heart of
:55:10. > :55:16.the country facing a major insurgency. There have been a small
:55:16. > :55:21.number of significant attacks. George Osborne said at a government
:55:21. > :55:28.security meeting that it might be a good idea to bring the troops back
:55:28. > :55:33.now, was that the silly thing for him to say? Anyone who knows the
:55:33. > :55:37.Chancellor's style will recognise this as a rhetorical posing of the
:55:37. > :55:42.counterfactual to the received wisdom. His style is quite properly
:55:42. > :55:47.to challenge received wisdom. Everybody is talking about the plan.
:55:47. > :55:52.So you don't think he meant it seriously? He was asking us to
:55:52. > :55:57.justify the current plan, by putting it to us that we could
:55:57. > :56:02.simply come out now. Do you think there was any chance of bringing
:56:02. > :56:06.the bulk of people home next year? Following my last visit to
:56:06. > :56:11.Afghanistan, I detect a change in mood among the senior commanders
:56:11. > :56:15.that it will now be possible to have a significant reduction in
:56:16. > :56:20.force numbers by the end of next year, after the next fighting
:56:20. > :56:24.season. That is because of the evidence this year that as the US
:56:24. > :56:30.has withdrawn its search, the Afghans have stepped up to the
:56:30. > :56:36.plate. Can you give any sense of numbers? If I would expect it to be
:56:36. > :56:42.significant. That means thousands, not hundreds, but I would not
:56:42. > :56:48.expected to be the majority. We are talking about 4000, it sounds like
:56:48. > :56:55.to me. A by the beginning of 23rd team we will have 9000 troops over
:56:55. > :57:00.there, and by the end of 24 team we will have virtually none. We were
:57:00. > :57:06.talking about the mood, let me ask you about the mood on something
:57:06. > :57:13.else. Michael Gove has been quoted talking off the record that a
:57:13. > :57:17.referendum on Europe will happen. If he was pressed, he would vote to
:57:17. > :57:23.leave the EU. Do you agree with that? There will not be a
:57:23. > :57:27.referendum now. That point Michael is reflecting is that we are not
:57:27. > :57:34.satisfied with the current relationship between the EU and the
:57:34. > :57:40.UK. The balance of competence is not right and the mood has changed.
:57:40. > :57:47.That is because, for the first time in a decade, those of us who are
:57:47. > :57:53.uncomfortable with the way the relationship has developed see an
:57:53. > :57:57.opportunity for the relationship to be renegotiated. There will come up
:57:57. > :58:02.point when the eurozone need to renegotiate its arrangements, and
:58:02. > :58:08.its relationship with those of us not in the eurozone. Would we
:58:08. > :58:13.survive happily and satisfactorily outside the EU? Nearly 50% of our
:58:13. > :58:18.trade is with the European Union. That has declined slightly, it used
:58:18. > :58:22.to be more. It is still a big proportion of our trade so it makes
:58:22. > :58:25.sense for Britain to be in the single market but to reset the
:58:25. > :58:31.relationship so we have a balance of competences between Europe and
:58:31. > :58:37.Britain which works for Britain and the British people. Thank you.