:00:37. > :00:42.Good morning and welcome. Not a good week for Number Ten,
:00:42. > :00:45.omnishambles is the word cropping up in the newspapers, the Mitchell
:00:45. > :00:50.resignation, policies thrown out in all directions, and some
:00:50. > :00:56.spectacular insults, this dog of a government, says Lord Tebbit this
:00:56. > :01:01.morning. Let's salute one minister struggling to explain the new
:01:01. > :01:06.energy policy in the Commons, a Labour MP demanded whether he
:01:06. > :01:10.understood it, and he replied, a yes or no answer would be
:01:10. > :01:15.insufficient to deal with the question, indeed it would be almost
:01:15. > :01:19.an insult to him to reduce my answer to that level. Now that his
:01:19. > :01:25.style! We are going to be talking about politics and more in our
:01:25. > :01:32.review of the newspapers with Shami Chakrabarti and historian Dan Snow.
:01:32. > :01:34.Our bunch of incompetent Lord Snootys was how Alex Salmond
:01:34. > :01:39.described David Cameron's government to his conference
:01:39. > :01:42.yesterday, not terribly polite, given that he has just signed a
:01:42. > :01:45.deal on Scotland's independence referendum with David Cameron. Alex
:01:45. > :01:49.Salmond has two years to convince the Scots to vote for independence.
:01:49. > :01:54.What would it mean for money, defence and passports? And should
:01:54. > :01:57.everyone in Britain have a say? I will be talking to him in a few
:01:57. > :02:01.minutes. As the crisis at the BBC over the Jimmy Savile case
:02:01. > :02:05.continues, the papers are full of it again this morning, and we ask
:02:05. > :02:09.whether the people at the top can have been unaware of the
:02:09. > :02:12.allegations over 30 years. Former BBC director-general Greg Dyke and
:02:12. > :02:18.ChildLine found and long-standing BBC presenter Esther Rantzen are
:02:18. > :02:21.here. With the public service unions are the march, how would a
:02:21. > :02:24.Labour government work with the teaching unions to drive up
:02:24. > :02:28.standards in schools when cuts, according to the Labour leader
:02:28. > :02:32.himself, are inevitable? We will hear from Stephen Twigg of labour.
:02:32. > :02:37.As the stage version of War Horse enters its sixth year, we speak to
:02:37. > :02:42.Michael Morpurgo about a film of another of his First World War
:02:42. > :02:46.books, his personal favourite. First, over to Naga Munchetty for
:02:46. > :02:50.the news. Good morning. What is billed as a
:02:50. > :02:54.new approach to law and order will be the focus of David Cameron's
:02:54. > :02:56.attempt to regain control of the political agenda this week. The
:02:56. > :03:01.Prime Minister is expected to say that Britain needs a tough but
:03:01. > :03:04.intelligent approach, including harsher sentences and
:03:04. > :03:09.rehabilitation. It follows a difficult few days for Mr Cameron,
:03:09. > :03:12.who has just seen his chief whip, Andrew Mitchell, resign. The former
:03:12. > :03:21.Cabinet minister Lord Tebbit is the latest prominent figure to question
:03:21. > :03:23.the Government's competence. Huge crowds are expected in Lebanon
:03:23. > :03:27.for the funeral of the head of intelligence killed in a bomb
:03:27. > :03:34.attack which many blame on Syria. He is thought to have been targeted
:03:34. > :03:39.because he uncovered a Damascus led plot for bombings inside 11 on.
:03:39. > :03:44.We want weapons, they chanted, Martin has the Prime Minister's
:03:44. > :03:47.office in Beirut. Waving the flags of the country's the opposition
:03:47. > :03:53.parties, they called on him to resign and declared their readiness
:03:53. > :03:58.to fight. The demonstrators support the 14th March coalition, named
:03:58. > :04:05.after the date of huge anti-Syrian protests seven years ago.
:04:05. > :04:11.reason why we are all here in front of the government palace, the
:04:11. > :04:15.Ministry, to tell the Ministry that we do not want them to rule any
:04:15. > :04:18.more, we want a change. protesters went on to set up tents
:04:18. > :04:24.and Martyrs' Square in the heart of the city centre. The square will be
:04:24. > :04:30.the focus of expected mass protests during the funeral of the country's
:04:30. > :04:33.intelligence chief. TRANSLATION: We came here today to repeat that we
:04:33. > :04:37.are not leaving until the Syrian ambassador and his accomplices are
:04:37. > :04:41.kicked back to Syria, we are here for the whole Lebanese nation.
:04:41. > :04:45.place where the intelligence chief was killed on Friday is still
:04:45. > :04:50.cordoned off by security forces. On Saturday, the Prime Minister
:04:50. > :04:55.appeared to link the attack with an alleged Syrian plot which she
:04:55. > :04:58.uncovered two months ago. The Prime Minister has been uncovered --
:04:58. > :05:04.criticised for failing to respond to the attack. Many ministers in
:05:04. > :05:08.his government have links to Syria. Over the past 40 years, and ends in
:05:08. > :05:13.Syria often had bloody echoes in London on as militias fought proxy
:05:13. > :05:18.wars on its streets. -- leader none. As the country becomes more
:05:18. > :05:22.polarised, it once again stands on the brink.
:05:22. > :05:26.The SNP deputy leader, Nicola Sturgeon, will close the party's
:05:26. > :05:30.conference in Perth later. In a speech, she will urge George
:05:30. > :05:35.Osborne to pump more cash into projects such as roads, schools and
:05:35. > :05:37.hospitals. Critics say the Scottish government must share some
:05:37. > :05:42.responsibility for the performance of the economy there.
:05:43. > :05:46.The brother of a woman hit by a hit and run driver in Cardiff as a
:05:46. > :05:50.tribute to her bravery. Karina Menzies was one of 14 people struck
:05:50. > :05:58.by a ban on Friday afternoon. 831 year-old man is being questioned on
:05:58. > :06:04.suspicion of murder. -- a 31-year- old man.
:06:04. > :06:09.A speeding white van used in a way of violence. CCTV images show the
:06:09. > :06:15.driver making his way through the streets of Cardiff. A 31-year-old
:06:15. > :06:21.man is still being questioned by police on suspicion of murder.
:06:21. > :06:25.Flowers have been arriving all weekend in memory of Karina Menzies,
:06:25. > :06:31.the 32-year-old mother who was killed after being hit by the full
:06:31. > :06:35.force of the van. Basically, he went through the traffic, aimed for
:06:35. > :06:42.them, and just hit them head on, and then he reversed over there, I
:06:42. > :06:47.cannot believe it. Was she trying to shelter the children? Well, yeah,
:06:47. > :06:52.she just screamed and threw them out of the way as much as she could,
:06:52. > :06:57.you know, so he's still clipped them, but she took it head on. She
:06:57. > :07:01.saved their lives, basically, she did, she saved their lives. Later
:07:01. > :07:04.today, a special church service will take place here not far from
:07:04. > :07:09.one of the crime scenes, giving members of this community an
:07:09. > :07:13.opportunity to reflect on events that many have found bewildering.
:07:13. > :07:17.think particularly those are witnesses that have seen children
:07:17. > :07:21.lying on the ground, being attended to, they have been really
:07:21. > :07:26.traumatised by that, just the sight of it, you know, and the fact that
:07:26. > :07:30.somebody seems to have deliberately targeted women and children, it is
:07:30. > :07:36.just incomprehensible, really. Detectives have asked the community
:07:36. > :07:46.to work with them to piece together what led to these crimes. A team of
:07:46. > :07:49.over 70 officers are now working on Nearly 500 Roman Catholic pilgrims
:07:49. > :07:53.have been rescued from the town of Lourdes in France after a river
:07:53. > :07:58.burst its banks. The grotto is said to be the site where the Virgin
:07:58. > :08:02.Mary appeared to a 14-year-old girl in the year 1858. Officials say the
:08:02. > :08:06.blooding is the worst they had seen for 25 years and has left large
:08:06. > :08:10.parts of the shrine and surrounding town completely inaccessible.
:08:10. > :08:15.Well, that is all from me for now, I'll be back with the headlines
:08:15. > :08:20.just before 10 o'clock, so back to Andrew.
:08:21. > :08:27.Thank you very much. The Sunday Telegraph, the MPs travelling first
:08:27. > :08:30.class on expenses, 180 of them have been claiming first-class expenses,
:08:30. > :08:34.although when you read the story, it turns out that is where the
:08:34. > :08:40.tickets are cheaper than standard class for there would have been.
:08:40. > :08:45.Our lot about the BBC, the Sunday Mirror, BBC star rape attack,
:08:45. > :08:50.another anonymous BBC star alleged to have tried to rape a dancer. A
:08:50. > :08:56.lot of that kind of stuff in the papers today. The Sunday Times here,
:08:56. > :08:59.a general story, Tory alarm over Number Ten meltdown, complaints
:08:59. > :09:03.over people they described as teenagers in Downing Street, not
:09:03. > :09:09.able to get a grip. The Independent on Sunday, the great British Energy
:09:09. > :09:14.Report, that is about monopolies up and down the country. -- rip-off.
:09:14. > :09:18.The observer has Norman Tebbit, a Tory grandee, it says, in assault
:09:18. > :09:25.on his dog of a government. I do not know that is really a grandee,
:09:25. > :09:30.he is a lord, but a grandee is a different thing. The Mail on Sunday,
:09:30. > :09:35.the new-style coming out from the Prime Minister, they say. Dan Snow,
:09:35. > :09:39.Shami Chakrabarti, welcome to. have got to talk about Savile,
:09:39. > :09:45.because these gamble becomes more bizarre, it has more and more
:09:45. > :09:47.assets to it, and it is all over the papers today. -- the scandal.
:09:47. > :09:52.The new twist I am particularly horrified by is the suggestion that
:09:52. > :09:57.Jimmy Savile was somehow put in charge of a task force overseeing
:09:57. > :10:01.Broadmoor Hospital in the 1980s. Now, of course, that has some very
:10:01. > :10:07.dangerous people in it, but also some incredibly vulnerable people
:10:07. > :10:11.in it, and interestingly this was at a time when Ken Clarke was the
:10:11. > :10:15.Health Secretary and Edina Currie was a health minister, we are told,
:10:15. > :10:21.but Ken Clarke is currently taking a bill through Parliament that
:10:21. > :10:24.would allow ministers to close down the court proceedings that would be
:10:24. > :10:31.looking at just this kind of scandal, so I am a little bit
:10:31. > :10:34.troubled by that. This comes back to the question of what his
:10:35. > :10:39.knowledge. A lot of people did not hear the rumours, were they have
:10:39. > :10:43.got to ministers? Did they know what kind of a man Jimmy Savile
:10:43. > :10:47.might have been? I do not know, and clearly this has to be investigated,
:10:47. > :10:50.but we have to think about the checks and balances that may or may
:10:50. > :10:55.not have been mayor. He was a celebrity who raised a lot of money
:10:55. > :11:00.for charity, but does that make him an appropriate person to have a
:11:00. > :11:05.free run over these hospitals and vulnerable people? Speaking of
:11:05. > :11:09.appropriate people, the Daily Mail has an eviscerating attack on the
:11:09. > :11:14.BBC over its Savile staff. It is talking about the report are doing
:11:14. > :11:19.the Panorama looking into some of the Savile staff, saying that he
:11:19. > :11:23.has personal links, linked to one of the schools which Savile
:11:23. > :11:28.allegedly behaved in appropriately at, so the Daily Mail getting a few
:11:28. > :11:32.blows in. It feels to me that this has to be seen in the context of
:11:33. > :11:37.Leveson on the horizon, and some parts of the press are taking the
:11:37. > :11:42.opportunity to really pile into the BBC. And there is a loss to pile
:11:42. > :11:46.into about, and indeed the BBC is, in a sense, Panorama versus
:11:46. > :11:49.Newsnight is going to be very interesting tomorrow. With all
:11:49. > :11:53.great institutions, and we need great institutions in a democracy,
:11:54. > :11:58.they rest on trust, and the BBC is one of the most trusted brands in
:11:58. > :12:07.the country, like the NHS and the military and so on. Ace Campbell
:12:07. > :12:11.like this does have to be tested and probe. -- a scandal. You have
:12:11. > :12:17.chosen one of the many Conservative... Tory troubles again
:12:17. > :12:21.are everywhere this weekend, and I have picked out the Lord Tebbit
:12:21. > :12:27.piece that you mentioned, whether he is a grandee or not, he has gone
:12:27. > :12:31.in very, very hard. Interestingly, he says the problem is not that the
:12:31. > :12:36.government is full of tops. He says that nobody would mind them being
:12:36. > :12:42.toxic they just went to the hard Right Hon immigration, law and
:12:42. > :12:46.order, and so on. That is his advice. -- the hard right on the
:12:46. > :12:51.immigration. Of course, it is a coalition government, as he himself
:12:51. > :12:54.acknowledges. More on that, I find myself slightly confused by these
:12:54. > :12:58.stories, but the more you read into it, the more fascinating they
:12:58. > :13:03.become. George Osborne has tried this trick before, the Sunday
:13:03. > :13:07.Mirror has found that, sitting in first class. I do not understand it,
:13:07. > :13:11.it appears that he paid for the upgrade, which is OK. This is a bit
:13:11. > :13:15.more dodgy, because he repaid -- refused to pay for the upgrade and
:13:15. > :13:18.was moved to Standard Class, which is an altogether different story,
:13:18. > :13:23.and there is a picture of the inspector who treats everybody the
:13:23. > :13:27.same, a great British democratic story. Yes, wonderful. This is
:13:27. > :13:33.almost in response to Lord Tebbit, as if the Government read his mind,
:13:33. > :13:37.I suppose, because we have got the Daily Mail, Cameron, it is time to
:13:37. > :13:43.my gay hoodie. Remember tough on crime, tough on the causes of
:13:43. > :13:46.crime? We are told that the new slogan, a new tougher, law and
:13:46. > :13:51.order strategy will be tough but intelligent. The problem with this,
:13:51. > :13:54.under Tony Blair as well, a new policy has brought out, and that
:13:54. > :13:59.the same time the spin is that it is in a response to a political
:13:59. > :14:03.problem, so nobody will concentrate on the policy if it is therefore a
:14:03. > :14:06.practical purpose, so you undermine it by announcing it. One of the
:14:06. > :14:11.things that looks particularly mad which is murdered on the front page
:14:11. > :14:15.of the Daily Mail is possibly axing the custom of prisoners �46 in cash
:14:16. > :14:20.when they are freed from jail. -- mooted. What is the alternative,
:14:20. > :14:24.give them nothing and send them straight out? It is absolutely
:14:24. > :14:29.deranged, the policy and the timing. The idea that you can lurch to the
:14:29. > :14:32.right to try to cover up tactical mistakes, but that is how we are
:14:32. > :14:37.running criminal justice in our society, that is completely
:14:37. > :14:41.deranged. Foreign policy, foreign news, a lot of coverage and really
:14:41. > :14:46.good coverage and good writing about the American election, which
:14:46. > :14:50.could not be closer all stop it could not be closer. If you are a
:14:50. > :14:55.massive American election he, like I am, this will be very exciting,
:14:55. > :15:00.47% each, incredibly polarised country, reflected right across
:15:00. > :15:06.both houses of Congress and the presidency itself. It looks like it
:15:06. > :15:10.could be as close at the famous election in 2000, which George Bush
:15:10. > :15:15.won even though he got the will votes than Al Gore. Romney has got
:15:15. > :15:19.momentum, that is what people are saying, but Obama is fighting back
:15:19. > :15:24.and is just ahead in some of the key states. The money that is being
:15:24. > :15:28.spelt, something like $3 billion across the different races. And a
:15:28. > :15:33.lot will hang on that last debate, the commentators saying that Romney
:15:33. > :15:43.has got what they call a glass jaw, he gets very easily riled, and
:15:43. > :15:52.
:15:52. > :15:58.He is now backtracking on abortion, trying to win the key demographic
:15:58. > :16:04.of the women's vote, very tactical. Also trying to win women's votes.
:16:04. > :16:09.You have chosen a story we haven't mentioned so far about phones.
:16:09. > :16:14.would, because we learn there is a police practice of arresting people
:16:14. > :16:18.on suspicion of whatever and taking their phones and downloading the
:16:18. > :16:23.information on those phones before perhaps not charging the person and
:16:23. > :16:28.sending them on their way. This is really troubling and I can't see
:16:28. > :16:32.any obvious legal basis for this practice. It ties in with another
:16:32. > :16:38.toff authoritarian policy, which is that the coalition government is
:16:38. > :16:42.currently looking at legislation that would allow the authorities to
:16:42. > :16:47.scoop what our e-mails, where activity, frankly whether we have
:16:47. > :16:53.been arrested on not, and keep it just in case we turn out to be a
:16:53. > :16:57.suspicious person later on. The technology moves apace, and I think
:16:57. > :17:02.sometimes the ethical thinking does not keep up. We were told before
:17:02. > :17:07.the last election the Conservative Party would be the party of Liberty,
:17:07. > :17:15.and they would think sensibly about criminal justice, locking up fewer
:17:15. > :17:22.people, and interestingly both of those key policies have been
:17:22. > :17:27.eradicated. How the Lib Dems feel about this, I don't know. It is an
:17:27. > :17:33.opportunity for Ed Miliband to take that ground bark for Labour.
:17:33. > :17:39.have been to Lebanon and indeed Syria, that was for your book and
:17:39. > :17:43.your series on castles and so on. An enormous part of history has
:17:44. > :17:50.just been blown to smithereens apart from the horror of massacres
:17:50. > :17:58.going on. Referring to the fact there was a born in Beirut
:17:58. > :18:03.yesterday, absolutely tragic. This country has on the verge of being
:18:03. > :18:09.torn apart by another sectarian war. People are being killed day to day
:18:09. > :18:15.and it is terrible. I was in London and looking at things like Beaufort
:18:15. > :18:24.Castle which were terribly badly damaged by war in 2006. Aleppo, one
:18:24. > :18:29.of the finest sites anywhere in the world, has been damaged. The castle
:18:29. > :18:35.is being used as a base by armed rebels and it is just a tragic on a
:18:35. > :18:38.human level of the day with the killing, but also so important the
:18:38. > :18:45.value of this heritage that is being lost in this part of the
:18:45. > :18:50.world. Let's come back home, and a national treasure? Perhaps you are
:18:50. > :18:58.referring to this rather attractive picture of Clare Balding in the
:18:58. > :19:04.Mail on Sunday. Underneath it, there this the Battle of the talent
:19:04. > :19:10.shows because this time of the year it is of course the Broadcasting
:19:10. > :19:15.battle. X-factor versus Strictly Come Dancing, and good news for the
:19:15. > :19:22.BBC - they are winning this particular battle. Do you watch
:19:22. > :19:29.these things, genuinely? I am a great fan of X-factor, it is
:19:29. > :19:33.wonderful escapism in the winter. You know a little bit about
:19:33. > :19:39.scheduling and you're up against Downton Abbey at the moment. People
:19:39. > :19:49.will have to make their choice. That is enough looking for me.
:19:49. > :19:56.story is about corporate tax avoidance, �15 million of unpaid
:19:56. > :19:59.tax, that is involving either way. I think corporate tax avoidance,
:19:59. > :20:02.individual tax avoidance is very serious book corporate tax
:20:03. > :20:08.avoidance really threatens to undermine the social contract.
:20:08. > :20:12.These big companies get a lot of support from the state, stuff they
:20:12. > :20:21.need in order to make this money, and really the whole argument for
:20:21. > :20:25.capitalism comes to the idea that pumping money back into the state,
:20:25. > :20:31.and these stories are incredibly damaging. Were have covered a great
:20:31. > :20:38.deal. That was very comprehensive, thank you.
:20:38. > :20:48.We have had biblical deluges and sunshine in the last few days. What
:20:48. > :20:51.
:20:51. > :20:55.It is dense fog across large areas this morning but it will clear and
:20:55. > :20:59.many people will see sunshine. We also have this stripped of cloud
:20:59. > :21:04.that has been bringing rain to the south-eastern corner and will
:21:04. > :21:09.continue to do so into the afternoon. The fog will clear
:21:09. > :21:14.eventually, many of the north- western parts enjoying sunshine in
:21:14. > :21:23.the afternoon. Temperatures up to 12, 13 degrees with light wind so
:21:23. > :21:29.it is quite pleasant. It stays pretty damp for East Anglia and the
:21:29. > :21:32.south-east of England, the cloud extending across much of the
:21:32. > :21:37.Midlands and South Eastern Counties. That breaks up as you get towards
:21:37. > :21:43.the coast of Devon and Cornwall so a little bit of sunshine here. The
:21:43. > :21:48.best weather in Wales out towards Cardigan Bay, a pleasant afternoon
:21:48. > :21:58.here, and in Northern Ireland it is broken cloud and sunny spells, not
:21:58. > :22:05.
:22:05. > :22:08.If Labour win the next election and the shadow education secretary
:22:08. > :22:13.Stephen Twigg become Secretary of State, he will inherit an education
:22:14. > :22:18.system that has been remodelled by Michael Gove. GCSEs will be
:22:18. > :22:22.reformed, hundreds more academies will have arrived, more free
:22:22. > :22:27.schools and the pace is rapid so would Labour try to overturn these
:22:27. > :22:32.changes give they came into power? Stephen Twigg is with me now -
:22:32. > :22:41.welcome. Let's start with the structure of schools, large numbers
:22:41. > :22:47.of academies now, and free schools as well. Will these schools be
:22:47. > :22:50.welcome? Would you like to see more of them? The previous Labour
:22:50. > :22:55.governments started the Academy's programme but Arab bird was
:22:55. > :22:59.completely different, it was about improving schools that were
:22:59. > :23:05.underperforming, particularly in areas of economic need. The only
:23:05. > :23:09.good things that are happening in education are in academies and free
:23:09. > :23:12.schools and there are plenty of other schools that are great. I
:23:12. > :23:17.would take a different approach that would be less focused on the
:23:17. > :23:21.name on the gate and more focused on celebrating excellence in our
:23:21. > :23:25.schools. Given that it has been such an important thing, you
:23:25. > :23:30.initially said you were relaxed about more academies and free
:23:30. > :23:36.schools. You seem less relaxed now. Are you saying that under Labour
:23:36. > :23:40.the government would not be rolling forward more of this? I want good
:23:40. > :23:43.schools in every neighbourhood and you get good schools that are
:23:44. > :23:50.academies and good schools that are not. The reason I said I was
:23:50. > :23:57.relaxed his because what matters most is the quality of the teaching.
:23:57. > :24:02.Academies do that, but so do schools which are not academies.
:24:02. > :24:06.What about the future for schools which have freedom to move a little
:24:06. > :24:11.bit away from the national curriculum, have freedom to
:24:11. > :24:16.organise themselves different, without local authority involvement.
:24:16. > :24:21.Do you welcome that? I am still confused. I spoke about this at the
:24:21. > :24:26.Labour Party conference because I think there are freedoms that
:24:26. > :24:31.should be extended to all schools. Some academies have adopted a
:24:31. > :24:35.longer school day and I don't see any reason why other schools should
:24:35. > :24:40.not be able to do that if they want to. Low call authorities who want
:24:40. > :24:47.to take back control of academies, of free schools, under Labour would
:24:47. > :24:51.they be able to? If no one is arguing law -- local authority
:24:51. > :25:01.should control schools. You know what I am talking about, that the
:25:01. > :25:05.local education authority control, will that be extended under Labour?
:25:05. > :25:09.It is not about extending local authority controls, it is about
:25:09. > :25:15.schools working together to local level including working with their
:25:15. > :25:18.local authority. Today 90% of schools are not academies and yet
:25:18. > :25:23.we have a government with nothing to say about the excellent work
:25:23. > :25:29.happening in those schools. I am still confused as to whether you
:25:29. > :25:34.will be extending academies, or reducing them. I think it is the
:25:34. > :25:39.wrong question and the number of interviews... I think this is the
:25:39. > :25:44.wrong question. None the less it is the question I must go in. I am
:25:44. > :25:48.going to allow local authorities to have more of the say and parents to
:25:48. > :25:58.have more of the say it about schools in their area. It might be
:25:58. > :26:00.
:26:00. > :26:05.about academies, but it might or of -- might also be about new schools
:26:05. > :26:11.coming through. We are having many new free schools being established
:26:11. > :26:14.which are half-empty. So some of the powers that academies currently
:26:14. > :26:20.have will be taken back in some cases and go back to local
:26:20. > :26:25.authorities? It is not about taking powers away from schools. There are
:26:25. > :26:29.certain freedoms which should apply to all schools, but there are also
:26:29. > :26:34.certain entitlement parents should be able to expect whatever the type
:26:34. > :26:37.of school so I would say requirements on school fruit which
:26:37. > :26:41.currently don't apply to academies and free schools, those
:26:41. > :26:50.requirements should extend. Nobody wants to go back to local
:26:50. > :26:54.authorities run in schools, it is about schools working well together.
:26:54. > :26:59.Examinations, and the reform of the A-level may well be in place by the
:26:59. > :27:04.time of the next general election. Are those reforms welcome and
:27:04. > :27:10.secure under Labour? The not told them and we had a fiasco this year
:27:10. > :27:14.in terms of the GCSE English grading. I have been in Southampton,
:27:14. > :27:18.Leeds and Anfield where there has been a big issue. We need to get
:27:18. > :27:21.trust in the exam system now before we talk about reform. Having won
:27:21. > :27:27.national board in charge of everything as Michael Gove suggests
:27:27. > :27:31.would be one way of getting round that plan. That makes sense, but
:27:31. > :27:41.what doesn't make sense is moving back to purely linear exams that
:27:41. > :27:47.
:27:47. > :27:53.take no account of course work a student doors. -- does. I do not
:27:53. > :27:57.concerned course work and modules have resulted in a softer system?
:27:57. > :28:04.The attempt is to produce something more rigorous, that is what Michael
:28:04. > :28:14.Gove at once. I want rigour, but I want rigour of the future and not
:28:14. > :28:16.
:28:16. > :28:20.of the past. I -- for example, speaking and listening skills are
:28:20. > :28:26.vital in this country. If you move back to linear exams, you don't
:28:26. > :28:32.assess them. The ability to work consistently is really important so
:28:32. > :28:36.yes let's have a rigorous exams but also rigorous course work. On the
:28:36. > :28:41.march in London yesterday, Ed Miliband talked about cuts being
:28:41. > :28:47.necessary and he was roundly booed for that. Was it an important
:28:47. > :28:52.moment in his leadership that he is able to say we are going to cut
:28:52. > :28:57.budgets to large number of trade unions, a Tony Blair moment? It was
:28:57. > :29:05.a very brave speech. I was on the march with nurses and teachers and
:29:05. > :29:09.others and it was only a small section of the crowd that booed him.
:29:09. > :29:14.What about your message to the National Union of Teachers? What
:29:14. > :29:18.would you say to them that they might not like to hear? Teacher
:29:18. > :29:22.morale is at an all-time low with Michael Gove and I want to work
:29:22. > :29:26.with them but I won responsibilities as well as rights.
:29:26. > :29:30.If the teacher is not up to the job, they should not be in the classroom.
:29:30. > :29:34.That is a tough message and the unions should be supporting me in
:29:34. > :29:38.saying that because it is about the best teaching in our schools.
:29:38. > :29:43.The BBC faces its greatest challenge since the hot an inquiry
:29:43. > :29:46.over the Jimmy Savile offer. Tomorrow Panorama will be
:29:46. > :29:53.broadcasting its investigation into how the story has been handled and
:29:53. > :29:58.on Tuesday the BBC director general will be questioned by MPs.
:29:58. > :30:01.Allegations that it has allowed child abuse on its promises are
:30:01. > :30:06.just about the most serious that can be made against any
:30:06. > :30:16.organisation. This is now wide ranging criminal investigation. I
:30:16. > :30:20.
:30:20. > :30:27.am joined by Greg Dyke and Esther Greg Dyke, you have been through a
:30:27. > :30:30.huge BBC crisis. What is your advice now? I have some sympathy
:30:30. > :30:34.with George, who turns up in the job and this happens three weeks
:30:34. > :30:42.later. He has not had that background and experience. My
:30:42. > :30:47.advice is, keep your nerve, try to be consistent, discuss with your
:30:47. > :30:51.colleagues, keep them on site, and try to go through it. It is like
:30:51. > :30:56.all stories, in the end this will fade away for a while, because all
:30:56. > :31:00.stories do. What you do not want to be seen to do is keep changing your
:31:00. > :31:05.position all the way through. Esther Rantzen. Or covering up,
:31:05. > :31:11.always the problem is caused by a cover-up. It sort of out does the
:31:11. > :31:17.original crime in the anger it produces, so stay transparent.
:31:17. > :31:21.is a pretty odd thing, some might say, to have one BBC programme,
:31:21. > :31:26.Panorama, unleashed to go after another BBC programme, Newsnight.
:31:26. > :31:30.Well, it is important, actually. What it means is, when you say and
:31:30. > :31:34.leashed, you think it has been unleashed from the top, but that is
:31:34. > :31:37.not the way the BBC works. The editorial power, who makes the
:31:37. > :31:41.decisions about these programmes is a long way down the organisation,
:31:42. > :31:46.and it normally stays with the editor, which he should do, because
:31:46. > :31:50.if someone at the top says, we can do that and not that, it would be
:31:50. > :31:55.vastly too powerful, and that is not what happens. The editor of
:31:55. > :31:58.Panorama will have decided to do this show tomorrow night, and as a
:31:59. > :32:05.result it will be his decision, and a lot of people in the organisation
:32:05. > :32:09.will not like it, but it is the decision that he made. What I would
:32:09. > :32:12.say to you, since leaving the BBC, one of the hardest things is to
:32:12. > :32:17.stop the people in Newsnight and Panorama trying to kill each other.
:32:17. > :32:22.And now they have a perfect opportunity, it is a fraternal
:32:22. > :32:26.organisation, isn't it, with his atmosphere?! It always has been,
:32:26. > :32:30.but the focus is drifting away from where it should be, and that is how
:32:30. > :32:34.difficult it is for children and adults to talk about what has
:32:34. > :32:40.happened to them and be listened to and believed. I think what has
:32:40. > :32:43.happened with Newsnight happened to me when we investigated a school
:32:43. > :32:48.which was found by a multi- millionaire paedophile. The law is
:32:48. > :32:51.said to us, you must have enough evidence. Now, we had to have five
:32:51. > :32:55.separate statement from boys as well as witness statements before
:32:55. > :32:59.we could transmit, and I should be fascinated to know, and I do not
:32:59. > :33:02.know whether Panorama will tell us this, just how much evidence in
:33:02. > :33:07.Newsnight have, because if they had enough, they should have gone with
:33:07. > :33:11.it. But in the end, as I understand it, the decision was taken by the
:33:11. > :33:16.editor of Newsnight because he felt he did not have another. And you
:33:16. > :33:21.are dead right, you need a lot of evidence before you do it. I mean,
:33:21. > :33:24.it was strange that Newsnight was doing this sort of story, actually,
:33:24. > :33:29.because new knight is a daily programme without the resources to
:33:29. > :33:34.do big in-depth investigations. -- Newsnight. They have a look that
:33:34. > :33:37.child abuse before very effectively, and I would be very sorry... I took
:33:37. > :33:42.part in the ITV documentary, and they certainly had enough evidence,
:33:42. > :33:45.and I would be sorry to think that Newsnight had less. And I do worry
:33:45. > :33:50.about why the BBC decided not to transmit that documentary, although
:33:50. > :33:54.you would say it was not the BBC, it was Newsnight. I would be very
:33:54. > :33:58.surprised if it was anyone other than the editor of Newsnight, and
:33:58. > :34:03.the conspiracy theory is that somehow someone at the top said, do
:34:03. > :34:07.not do that. Well, I can tell you, if someone says that, they do it
:34:07. > :34:11.and if they do not do it, it gets leaked to everybody in the world.
:34:11. > :34:16.Which is what has happened. wear editor in chief, the number
:34:16. > :34:22.one potato at the top, so did you never, on occasion, sent down the
:34:22. > :34:27.directives to do something or not do something? You sometimes say,
:34:27. > :34:32.this is an interesting story to look at. I cannot ever remember
:34:33. > :34:35.saying, you should not do that. Unless your lawyers for your
:34:35. > :34:40.editorial policy people are saying, I do not think this stands up.
:34:40. > :34:44.would be horrified if anyone in the organisational hierarchy set lay-
:34:44. > :34:49.off, this is embarrassing, do not pursue this. You cannot imagine the
:34:49. > :34:53.circumstances, but if it happened... Have if it happened, I do not think
:34:53. > :34:59.that person will survive, but I do not believe it happened, it is not
:34:59. > :35:04.the culture of the organisation. Partly because of ChildLine, and
:35:04. > :35:08.the atmosphere has changed quite a lot, and people are much more
:35:08. > :35:13.sensitised to this, but you think it has really changed, because at
:35:13. > :35:17.some level we seem to be obsessed with the death earlier in this
:35:17. > :35:22.country -- with paedophilia in this country, but perhaps quite rightly
:35:22. > :35:26.because vast numbers of institutions seem touched. Well,
:35:26. > :35:32.Savile was a predatory paedophile. When we launched ChildLine in 1986,
:35:32. > :35:35.I was told that a paedophile commits 1,000 offences against one
:35:36. > :35:40.child, if it is in his family, or against 1,000 different children,
:35:40. > :35:44.so I am not a bit surprised at the numbers that have come forward.
:35:44. > :35:50.you have any indication at all during the ChildLine years of what
:35:50. > :35:54.a monster Savile was? No, and that is my biggest regret, because if a
:35:54. > :35:58.child had disclosed, people could have acted, and if they did not act,
:35:58. > :36:02.it is entirely reprehensible. There were rumours but no disclosure from
:36:02. > :36:07.a child or an adult survivor that I know about until after his death,
:36:07. > :36:14.and that is a big regret. It underscores for me how difficult it
:36:14. > :36:21.is. Greg Dyke, do think it is conceivable... It is odd that over
:36:21. > :36:27.20 or more years so many BBC managers were involved with Savile,
:36:27. > :36:31.all the way up and down, and nobody knew? It is pretty odd. I am not in
:36:31. > :36:37.a position to know that. I was not at the BBC in those years, but I
:36:37. > :36:43.did know... Bill Cotton was head of entertainment for many years, a
:36:43. > :36:46.revered figure, and I cannot believe that Bill Cotton knew.
:36:47. > :36:51.there were rumours, and there were rumours at my junior level, and we
:36:51. > :36:55.know that at one stage the boss of Radio 1 actually called Savile in
:36:55. > :36:59.to confront him with the rumours. What you do without a child's
:36:59. > :37:04.disclosure or a witness statement, when a man just denies it and goes
:37:04. > :37:10.on his merry way, and becomes a national figure of such importance,
:37:10. > :37:16.way beyond the BBC, do you know, 88 This Is Your Life on him at Thames,
:37:16. > :37:19.I wonder what they are net. -- that they did. There were allegations,
:37:19. > :37:24.and he said it would cost Stoke Mandeville �2 million, which is
:37:24. > :37:30.what I will raise this year of. of the things the BBC does with a
:37:30. > :37:33.big crisis is panic, turn in on itself, go through spasms and
:37:33. > :37:39.mayhem of the height of the Hatton inquiry, we both remember very well.
:37:39. > :37:43.Is the same thing in danger of happening now. --? The the BBC made
:37:43. > :37:46.two early mistakes. The first statements about this were not
:37:46. > :37:50.strong enough and were not saying, this is a really serious issue
:37:50. > :37:55.which needs to be examined. It is not enough to say, we looked in our
:37:55. > :38:00.files, so that was a mistake. The second one was, when they started
:38:00. > :38:05.saying that the Newsnight programme was not run for editorial reasons,
:38:05. > :38:09.editorial reasons, you needed to explain exactly what that was. Why
:38:09. > :38:12.did the editor of Newsnight decide this was not a strong enough
:38:12. > :38:16.programme to be broadcast? Now, I suspect he did not think the
:38:16. > :38:21.evidence was strong enough, but someone needed to say that, and
:38:21. > :38:24.nobody did. A thank you both very much indeed.
:38:24. > :38:29.Michael Morpurgo was one of our most prolific and popular
:38:29. > :38:35.children's writers, a former children's Laureus no less. His
:38:35. > :38:39.book walls, adapted for the stage, captivated audiences and inspired
:38:39. > :38:42.Steven Spielberg's screen version of earlier this year. Set amid the
:38:42. > :38:46.horrors of World War I, the play is now celebrating its 5th birthday
:38:46. > :38:50.this month at the New London Theatre. It has transferred to
:38:50. > :38:55.Broadway and won several prestigious awards. Michael
:38:55. > :38:59.Morpurgo joins me now. One of the funny things about warhorse is, you
:38:59. > :39:05.know, you published it, it sold a modest number of copies, and life
:39:05. > :39:09.went on. Very modest! It was really the stage version that turned it
:39:09. > :39:14.into this huge hit. Yes, a man called Tom Morris picked up the
:39:14. > :39:18.idea that this could be a wonderful vehicle for extraordinary
:39:18. > :39:21.puppeteers, with whom he had worked at the Battersea Arts Centre. I
:39:21. > :39:26.think he wanted their work to be centre-stage at the National
:39:26. > :39:29.Theatre. And so he rang me up and said, we want to make a plate with
:39:29. > :39:37.puppets, and I said to him, I did not think it was a very good idea,
:39:37. > :39:42.because our birds for me were pantomime for this -- because
:39:42. > :39:49.puppets for me were pantomime horses. But he sent me a DVD of a
:39:49. > :39:52.giraffe, walking across a studio floor, and these three people work
:39:52. > :39:57.giraffe, making giraffe, and they brought tears to your eyes. I have
:39:57. > :40:01.no idea why, this magic, this is what they brought to the horse, and
:40:01. > :40:06.that is what he brought to the story. You are a very prolific
:40:06. > :40:09.author, and in a lot of your books two things are going on,
:40:09. > :40:13.confronting children with heart things. You have written about the
:40:13. > :40:16.Palestinian issue, are not about the war, the First World War. But
:40:16. > :40:22.there also seems to be a sense, we have talked a lot about indecency
:40:22. > :40:26.this morning, but there is a sense of English decency or nostalgia for
:40:26. > :40:30.a rural decency that comes through in your books a lot. I'm not sure
:40:30. > :40:35.it is nostalgia. I was brought up in a gentler age, and that seems
:40:35. > :40:38.ridiculous to say after the dreadful times of the Second World
:40:38. > :40:42.War, but certainly it was clear then what was right and what was
:40:42. > :40:46.wrong. I think children have a yearning for that. I think they do
:40:46. > :40:50.have a sense of fair play, what is fair and right, and they can see
:40:50. > :40:55.sadness. The trouble is, it comes into their sitting rooms dull time.
:40:55. > :40:59.It never did when we were young, we played out, we did not see pictures
:40:59. > :41:08.of coffins coming home from Afghanistan and Iraq. They see that
:41:08. > :41:11.and ask questions. They are easily wounded, I think, easily touched.
:41:11. > :41:15.You have got a film just about to come out of a book which I think
:41:15. > :41:24.you have said is one of your favourites, Bond On Bond, which is
:41:24. > :41:29.another tough story, -- private Peaceful. It is about someone being
:41:29. > :41:34.shot for alleged cowardice. It is my fictional story of 300 men who
:41:34. > :41:38.were shot, some of whom just fell asleep on duty. I read a letter to
:41:38. > :41:43.one of the mothers of these unfortunate soldiers, and I was so
:41:43. > :41:48.touched by it, angered by the injustice of that I thought I would
:41:48. > :41:55.write about one of them. We can have a look at the film. What the
:41:55. > :42:02.hell is the matter with you lot?! You send us out, watch the machine
:42:02. > :42:10.guns cut us down! Are you disobey my orders?! Are you disobeying my
:42:10. > :42:16.order! He cannot walk, he is wounded! I want all your men are on
:42:16. > :42:21.your feet now all it is a court martial, do you hear me?! We have
:42:21. > :42:24.got the anniversary, the centenary of the First World War coming up in
:42:24. > :42:28.a couple of years' time, and it seems that this has become the
:42:28. > :42:34.defining experience of the modern British, it is the thing we tend to
:42:34. > :42:38.again and again and again, more so than the Second World War, more so
:42:38. > :42:42.than 1940 and the Spitfires. Why do you think that is? I think it is
:42:42. > :42:46.because the people who grew up after the Second World War are
:42:46. > :42:50.interpreting it that way. I grew up with those great poets in my head,
:42:50. > :42:57.and so that was the war that seems to represent all wars to me growing
:42:57. > :43:01.up. And then they lost an ankle in the Second World War, which
:43:01. > :43:05.reinforced the sense of the continuing grieving. -- and then I
:43:05. > :43:09.lost an uncle. But what we cannot get away from is that it goes on
:43:09. > :43:14.today. There was an almost when we almost put wall behind us during
:43:14. > :43:19.the Cold War, saying, that is all over, but we do now see the coffins
:43:19. > :43:23.coming home, so this First World War, when 10 million soldiers died,
:43:23. > :43:28.nearly one million from this country, the play of all wars and
:43:28. > :43:33.the book, when the horse gets caught in the wire, and it rears up
:43:33. > :43:37.and screens, it is a primal scream of all this against the injustice,
:43:37. > :43:42.what's Ted Hughes called the huge senselessness of war. You have got
:43:42. > :43:49.a new book out about the First World War, a very unusual story of
:43:49. > :43:55.a black British officer. Yes, I discovered this extraordinary man,
:43:55. > :43:58.Lieutenant Walter Tull, and it is inspired by his life. He was the
:43:58. > :44:02.first British black officer, he should not have been an officer, it
:44:02. > :44:07.was a mistake, because he was not allowed to be an officer and black
:44:07. > :44:10.in the First World War. You have to be of European descent.
:44:10. > :44:14.fascinating story, thank you very much for joining us.
:44:15. > :44:18.It has been a big week in Scotland, and perhaps for the entire UK, with
:44:18. > :44:22.the agreement on the terms of an independence referendum. There will
:44:22. > :44:26.be a straightforward yes or no question, but exactly what
:44:26. > :44:30.independence would mean is rather more complicated. Details about the
:44:30. > :44:34.currency, how the economy would be run, membership of the EU have all
:44:34. > :44:38.got to be worked out. First Minister Alex Salmond has two years
:44:38. > :44:48.to make his case, and he joins me now from the SNP conference in
:44:48. > :44:57.
:44:57. > :45:04.Good morning. I am actually been the Royal Geographical Centre in
:45:04. > :45:13.Perth. Let's talk about your job over the next few years because the
:45:13. > :45:22.polls show a substantial majority to maintain the Union - how will
:45:22. > :45:26.you shift that? We were told we were 25% behind, but this morning
:45:26. > :45:33.that gap has been reduced to 8%. Indeed it becomes for cent if
:45:33. > :45:37.people think there will be a Labour government at the next election.
:45:37. > :45:44.11% if people think there will be another Tory government at the next
:45:44. > :45:49.election. It means it is all to play for, Game On, but lower sums
:45:49. > :45:54.substantial indication that the momentum lies with our campaign.
:45:54. > :46:01.Let's talk about some of the specifics, starting with defence.
:46:01. > :46:05.Your party conference has voted to stay in NATO in an independent
:46:05. > :46:10.Scotland, and some people would say on the other hand you are against
:46:10. > :46:14.nuclear weapons and would make that a constitutional requirement, and
:46:14. > :46:23.therefore there is something rather hypocritical on using the NATO
:46:23. > :46:33.Shield but not been part of it. out of the 28 member states and
:46:33. > :46:35.
:46:35. > :46:41.non-nuclear countries so if that is hypocritical so are many others.
:46:41. > :46:44.Nobody seriously believes Scotland is a country of 5 1/4 million
:46:44. > :46:48.people that would want to be in possession of nuclear weapons. That
:46:48. > :46:55.would be a bad thing for Scotland and for nuclear proliferation
:46:55. > :46:59.across the world. Our position is unconditional. What we do say
:46:59. > :47:06.however, because we have substantial indications that our
:47:06. > :47:11.friends and allies want co- operation that we would be happy to
:47:11. > :47:21.be a friend of NATO. I wasn't suggesting Scotland have its own
:47:21. > :47:21.
:47:21. > :47:31.nuclear submarine, but the reason I am interested in this... What are
:47:31. > :47:35.
:47:35. > :47:40.you suggesting? The nuclear base is very important to the current
:47:40. > :47:44.Trident, and the cost of moving Trident would be prohibitively
:47:44. > :47:52.expensive so either they can have some kind of agreement with you to
:47:52. > :47:58.keep the Trident base in Scotland open in at Guantanamo Bay style
:47:58. > :48:02.least back arrangement or that his curtains for Trident. That would be
:48:02. > :48:08.far better to be curtains for Trident. They could either
:48:08. > :48:15.relocated to another facility or alternatively they could use the
:48:15. > :48:19.nuclear facilities in America or France. Trident is effectively an
:48:19. > :48:23.American weapon. Alternatively of course they could decide on a much
:48:23. > :48:27.better policy which would be to decommission the weapons system but
:48:27. > :48:33.that would be a matter for the London government. That doesn't
:48:34. > :48:40.mean we are going to be amenable to lease out part of Scottish
:48:40. > :48:44.territory in what you describe as a Cyprus situation. You're quite
:48:44. > :48:47.right that the SNP proposal would be to write that into the
:48:47. > :48:51.constitution of the state so that would make the possession of
:48:51. > :48:56.nuclear weapons illegal in Scotland, but that is a perfectly reasonable
:48:56. > :49:00.choice for any country to make and the idea there there are no choices
:49:00. > :49:10.for the government is ridiculous. What is the problem with stationing
:49:10. > :49:10.
:49:10. > :49:14.the Trident system elsewhere? way or another, if Scotland becomes
:49:14. > :49:19.independent, the system of basing Trident submarines in Scottish
:49:19. > :49:29.waters is over, will never come back, and that is clear and can't
:49:29. > :49:30.
:49:30. > :49:35.be revised? That is clear from an SNP point of view. That would be
:49:35. > :49:39.the policy of the SNP. We do say it in the motion that the removal of
:49:39. > :49:47.Trident would be as soon as can safely be arranged because we will
:49:47. > :49:52.not compromise anybody's safety in that matter. Let's move on to the
:49:52. > :49:57.question of EU membership. A problematic one. You would expect
:49:57. > :50:03.there to be presumably quite difficult negotiation with the rest
:50:03. > :50:08.of the EU about the terms on which Scotland became an independent
:50:08. > :50:13.member of the EU. Do you think there are circumstances in which
:50:13. > :50:18.Scotland might not be a member of the EU? We are part of the European
:50:18. > :50:24.Union and have been for 40 years. We would be negotiating our
:50:24. > :50:29.opposition from within the context of the Union. There is a huge
:50:29. > :50:36.amount of goodwill towards Scotland in the rest of the European Union.
:50:36. > :50:40.If you asked people in the EU which part of these islands seems to be
:50:40. > :50:45.hankering towards leaving the European Union, it is the southern
:50:45. > :50:50.part of these islands. Every country which applies to join, and
:50:50. > :51:00.this would be a new country there for applying to join, is obliged
:51:00. > :51:00.
:51:00. > :51:04.also to be part of the euro and yet you don't want to be - why is that?
:51:04. > :51:08.Let me dispute that Clemence of your question. There was a
:51:08. > :51:12.difference between a country becoming a member state from inside
:51:12. > :51:19.the European Union. You would be negotiating your position from
:51:19. > :51:25.inside. It is not always the case that countries that have joined
:51:25. > :51:29.have joined the euro, Sweden does not fulfil the requirements for the
:51:29. > :51:36.euro of the in the exchange rate mechanism and the two things don't
:51:36. > :51:41.follow. In terms of membership itself, when the facts change, you
:51:41. > :51:45.change your mind. The Tories and certainly the Liberals were of in
:51:46. > :51:50.favour of European membership, but the problems caused by the DoH
:51:50. > :51:55.Virgin productivity between the southern tip of Greece and other
:51:55. > :52:00.areas would mean it does not seem a sensible economic option, which is
:52:00. > :52:04.why we have put forward the policy that we would retain membership of
:52:04. > :52:09.the sterling area. Do you accept that would require some kind of
:52:09. > :52:14.pact between an independent Scotland and the Bank of England, a
:52:14. > :52:19.fiscal stability pact of some kind, an agreement on maximum amount of
:52:19. > :52:27.borrowing, exactly the same kind of agreement that has caused tensions
:52:27. > :52:32.in the eurozone? There was a lot of evidence that Scotland and England
:52:32. > :52:39.would be an optimal currency area because the productivity in
:52:39. > :52:43.Scotland and England is almost identical. Some of the tensions
:52:43. > :52:47.that have existed in the eurozone would not exist in a Stirling's own,
:52:48. > :52:52.but it is perfectly reasonable proposition. I don't accept this
:52:52. > :52:59.idea that it will bind Scotland hand and foot. If you look at the
:52:59. > :53:04.figures available for last year, it will still give you the flexibility
:53:05. > :53:14.of the 2.7 billion relative surplus, the strongest position Scotland had
:53:15. > :53:15.
:53:15. > :53:19.compared to England in 2010/2011. We could invest more, borrow less,
:53:19. > :53:24.or combination of those. There is a very detailed argument about the
:53:25. > :53:33.possible nature of the divorce when it comes to the money, when it
:53:33. > :53:38.comes to the size of the debt and so on. There is a view among some
:53:38. > :53:43.ministers in London, if Scotland votes to become independent, the
:53:43. > :53:49.agreement must then be put to referendum of the whole of the UK.
:53:49. > :53:55.How do you respond to that? Clause 30 in the Edinburgh agreement,
:53:55. > :54:03.which was signed this week, and I accept in good faith from the
:54:03. > :54:07.London government, that says the referendum will be decisive. The
:54:07. > :54:14.result will be accepted and both governments will work in the best
:54:14. > :54:20.interest of the people of Scotland and the UK. You regard a referendum
:54:20. > :54:30.in England as a breach of good faith? I'm not sure which
:54:30. > :54:35.referendum you are talking about but what the are -- what the
:54:35. > :54:39.Edinburgh agreement... I think both countries have agreed the process,
:54:39. > :54:44.agreed to accept the result and work in the best interests of the
:54:44. > :54:49.people of Scotland and the UK. I will abide by the letter and the
:54:49. > :54:59.spirit of that agreement. There is a big debate going on about
:54:59. > :55:06.
:55:06. > :55:11.immigration and moment and the problems, so passport control the -
:55:12. > :55:15.- between Scotland and England could not be ruled out, could it?
:55:15. > :55:19.If I remember correctly, you are regular visitor to the Irish
:55:19. > :55:22.Republic. I am quite certain you didn't take your passport the last
:55:22. > :55:28.time you visited because you don't need it because we have been part
:55:28. > :55:34.of a common travel area between Scotland, England and the Irish
:55:34. > :55:41.Republic since before the Second World War. That common travel area
:55:41. > :55:45.would continue if Scotland became independent. Of course the treaties
:55:45. > :55:50.that established that and the Acts of Parliament would be inherited by
:55:50. > :55:54.the Scottish government. David Cameron got his yes or no question,
:55:54. > :56:02.you won in terms of the timing of the referendum and the process by
:56:02. > :56:08.which that process will be agreed - did you put one over on him? It is
:56:08. > :56:12.a very good agreement, I think. That is good the governments were
:56:12. > :56:16.able to agree. I would prefer the Scottish Parliament to decide the
:56:16. > :56:21.issue of whether there would be a second question, on the other hand
:56:21. > :56:26.this is a referendum made and built in Scotland in terms of the process,
:56:26. > :56:31.the timing, the franchise - or that will be decided in the Scottish
:56:31. > :56:36.Parliament, as it should be. want to keep the Queen as the Queen
:56:36. > :56:46.of Scotland. Do you think that will be the same when we get to King
:56:46. > :56:49.
:56:49. > :56:54.Charles the third, or whatever he calls himself? Yes, I do. I am
:56:54. > :56:59.certain that would be the case. Incidentally, I keep hearing the
:56:59. > :57:05.SNP have changed our policy in the monarchy. We adopted a policy in
:57:05. > :57:09.favour of the monarchy in 1934, before even I was in politics and
:57:09. > :57:13.before you were commenting on it. Do you think the Queen would want
:57:14. > :57:18.to stay as Queen of Scotland? think the BBC got in trouble
:57:18. > :57:25.recently for trying to put words in the mouth of the majesty her queen.
:57:25. > :57:29.I think she would be proud, as her ancestors were. As you are well
:57:29. > :57:34.aware, it was James the sixth, King of Scots, who became the King of
:57:34. > :57:41.England and it was 100 years in which Scotland and England had the
:57:41. > :57:46.same monarch. I am sure her Majesty the Queen, and I certainly wouldn't
:57:46. > :57:51.put words in her mouth - I am as well aware of history as you are.
:57:51. > :57:53.Now the news headlines. The SNP leader has told this
:57:54. > :57:59.programme a referendum on Scottish independence will be decisive and
:57:59. > :58:02.the rest of the UK will not have the chance to vote. He said nuclear
:58:02. > :58:08.submarines will be removed from Scottish waters if they win the
:58:08. > :58:12.referendum. He claimed Scotland would not necessarily have the euro.
:58:12. > :58:17.It former BBC director general has told this programme that if the BBC
:58:17. > :58:23.manager had told Newsnight not to pursue the Jimmy Savile
:58:23. > :58:27.investigation, it is hard to see how they could survive. He said the
:58:27. > :58:30.organisation should hold its nerve against the scandal. We will get
:58:30. > :58:35.back to Andrew in a moment, but firstly here is a look at what is
:58:35. > :58:40.coming up after the programme. A major report this week says
:58:40. > :58:45.cannabis should be decriminalised - should it? Should doctors ration