:00:42. > :00:46.David Cameron has rejected the European Court of Human Rights'
:00:46. > :00:56.demand to allow Cilic -- allow prisoners the right to vote. Should
:00:56. > :01:12.
:01:12. > :01:14.criminals lose this right as well Good morning. Welcome to Sunday
:01:14. > :01:17.Morning Live. The Prime Minister has set himself on a collision
:01:17. > :01:21.course with the European Court of Human Rights by defying the ruling
:01:21. > :01:26.that prisoners should be given the right to vote. His denial of that
:01:26. > :01:29.right an important part of justice or a hindrance to rehabilitation?
:01:30. > :01:34.It might not be a popular thing to say but I believe prisoners should
:01:34. > :01:38.have the right to vote like the rest of us. Denying them a fault
:01:38. > :01:44.alienates them and is a violation of their human rights. Britain is
:01:44. > :01:48.to operate on -- are aunt drones -- aren't drones from the shores. Is
:01:48. > :01:52.it a valid tool for warfare or an immoral step leading to innocent
:01:52. > :01:58.casualties? And as we approach the ancient
:01:58. > :02:02.pagan festival behind Hallowe'en, should we fear of the afterlife?
:02:02. > :02:08.Should it determine how we live our lives on earth?
:02:08. > :02:11.David Blunkett is a former Home Secretary, was also Secretary of
:02:11. > :02:14.State for education and for Work and Pensions. He is donating his
:02:14. > :02:19.brain to science before Alzheimer's research.
:02:19. > :02:22.Mehdi Hasan is political director of the Huffington Post UK and is an
:02:22. > :02:27.obsessive Twitter. Alison Ruoff is a former magistrate and a lay
:02:27. > :02:35.member of the Church of England Synod. She once found herself on
:02:35. > :02:39.page three of the times. Hurtling towards the Yorks are not. -- York
:02:39. > :02:49.say not. Call us now to challenge our guests. Phone calls cost up to
:02:49. > :02:55.
:02:55. > :02:59.This week, David Cameron pledged that prisoners would not be given
:02:59. > :03:03.the right to vote, in defiance of the European Court of Human Rights
:03:03. > :03:08.ruling that a blanket ban on voting for any one sent to jail is illegal.
:03:08. > :03:12.The Government has until the end of November to decide how to react.
:03:12. > :03:16.Does an offender stop being a citizen at the door of the prison
:03:16. > :03:24.or is giving them a float a human right too far? Mehdi Hasan thinks
:03:24. > :03:28.there is no right for giving prisoners -- refusing prisoners the
:03:28. > :03:32.vote. Denying prisoners a vote only alienate them and is a violation of
:03:32. > :03:36.their human rights. The right to vote is a fundamental right. For a
:03:36. > :03:39.state to take that right away, to disenfranchise one of its own
:03:39. > :03:43.citizens, it surely requires that citizen to have committed a grave
:03:43. > :03:48.crime. Shoplifting or not paying for a TV licence, or a motoring
:03:48. > :03:51.offence? Any of those could land you behind bars, but are any of
:03:51. > :03:56.them serious or brave enough to justify denying you the right to
:03:56. > :04:01.vote? I am not saying you give murderers, rapists or other violent
:04:01. > :04:05.criminals the right to vote. There are limits, but how easy to have a
:04:05. > :04:09.blanket ban. Prisoners are supposed to be places where we try to
:04:09. > :04:12.rehabilitate people as well as punish them. We expected -- we
:04:12. > :04:17.expect convicted criminals to see a jail sentence as an opportunity to
:04:17. > :04:21.change their lives and undergo personal transformation. Like the
:04:21. > :04:27.rest of us, they deserve it say in the kind of society that they will
:04:27. > :04:31.be released into. We need ex- convicts to behave as active,
:04:31. > :04:38.responsible, law-abiding citizens, and allowing them to vote in prison
:04:38. > :04:41.is a useful first step in helping them to do so. If we want to live
:04:41. > :04:44.in a cohesive society, we need to give us many of its members as
:04:44. > :04:49.possible a say in how it is governed and run. That includes
:04:49. > :04:55.those who might be behind bars or her will one day be released. It is
:04:55. > :05:02.not just hour legal obligation, it is also the right thing to do.
:05:02. > :05:06.right thing to do? For once, I agree with the Prime Minister.
:05:06. > :05:09.People who are in prison should not have the vote. It is something that
:05:10. > :05:14.I think you sacrifice if you end up in prison. I feel strongly about
:05:14. > :05:20.that. That is the question for the vote today. Should prisoners be
:05:20. > :05:20.given the right to vote? If you given the right to vote? If you
:05:20. > :05:30.given the right to vote? If you think they should, takes us. The
:05:30. > :05:36.
:05:36. > :05:40.Full terms and conditions on our website. David Blunkett, you know
:05:40. > :05:42.that this was a big issue when you that this was a big issue when you
:05:42. > :05:47.were in government. Personally and morally, now that you are no longer
:05:47. > :05:51.Home Secretary, what is the right thing to do? My default position is
:05:51. > :05:55.that prisoners should not have the vote because they have lost that
:05:55. > :05:59.part of their citizenship when they were convicted. Obviously, people
:05:59. > :06:07.who are on remand should retain the right to vote. They have not been
:06:07. > :06:10.found guilty. The difficulty with this, and we had a debate about
:06:10. > :06:14.this, which is where David Cameron is coming from, because he got the
:06:14. > :06:20.message that the Commons are in favour of banning the right to vote,
:06:20. > :06:24.the problem is that it has become irrational. We do not propose to
:06:24. > :06:31.stop people having the right to vote who are on community service,
:06:31. > :06:35.it is only if you are actually in jail. We had such a dysfunctional
:06:35. > :06:39.system of magistracy and district judges in terms of where you live
:06:39. > :06:43.in the country and what you will be convicted of and what sentence will
:06:44. > :06:48.receive, that it does at the margins make a nonsense of this. If
:06:48. > :06:53.we were having a rational debate we would probably say that if the
:06:54. > :06:57.sentence normally warranted a community punishment, that you were
:06:57. > :07:04.sent to prison in your locality, but you would still have the right
:07:05. > :07:10.to vote. Your straw poll will be overwhelmingly negative. Let us see
:07:10. > :07:13.how the debate comes out. Maybe will convince them otherwise. Mehdi
:07:13. > :07:17.Hasan, the reason so many people are opposed to the idea is that
:07:17. > :07:21.these prisoners have broken the covenant with society and it is
:07:21. > :07:26.that not part of the punishment? couple of things, or one, you talk
:07:26. > :07:30.about people being convicted of a crime, it is not about breaking the
:07:30. > :07:34.law. You can be convicted of a crime and not be behind bars. It is
:07:34. > :07:38.so arbitrary. If we are linking it to breaking the law, why not deny
:07:39. > :07:42.the right to anyone who breaks the law? Why this arbitrary connection?
:07:42. > :07:48.If you're in prison, you have lost your liberty. I do nothing to lose
:07:48. > :07:53.your citizenship. I do not think you are suddenly a semi citizen.
:07:53. > :08:00.Punishment, civil liberties as well as your physical liberties? Why?
:08:00. > :08:04.You write a boat is fundamental. You're talking about your peers.
:08:04. > :08:08.Weird things. You talk about citizenship, and losing part of
:08:08. > :08:13.society, when you are in prison you still pay taxes on your savings and
:08:13. > :08:18.income. You still pay capital-gains tax, income tax. The famous
:08:18. > :08:23.American Revolution said there is no taxation without representation.
:08:23. > :08:26.We are paying �40,000 and there are a lot of people who should not be
:08:26. > :08:33.in prison in the first place, petty offenders. A murderer or a rapist,
:08:33. > :08:36.fine. It is very rare in the Magistrates' Court that you go to
:08:36. > :08:41.prison first time unless it is a serious offence. We have doubled
:08:41. > :08:44.the prison population in the last 20 years. I saw in the prison
:08:44. > :08:49.statistics that the number of people in prison for a violent
:08:49. > :08:53.offence has doubled in the last 15 years. Is that something a, and
:08:53. > :08:58.obviously you were a magistrate, but do you think more people are in
:08:59. > :09:03.prison for serious, violent crimes? I do not actually know the figures
:09:04. > :09:09.but I think it is something that if you land up in prison, you ought to
:09:09. > :09:13.forfeit this right to vote. I think it is part of being punished, and I
:09:13. > :09:22.think it is important. I think that members of the general public feel
:09:22. > :09:28.the same. They agree that if you are in prison, that is it. You have
:09:28. > :09:36.forfeited that. Juliet lion is director of the Prisoners Trust. We
:09:36. > :09:41.know that the public are opposed to the polling -- to the idea of
:09:41. > :09:44.giving prisoners the vote. With the idea of compensation, it aggravates
:09:44. > :09:48.people all the more, they're trying to see what they can milk out of
:09:48. > :09:56.the system. What is the right way to see it? Many people have said
:09:56. > :10:00.that. The punishment is loss of liberty, that is what you lose. It
:10:00. > :10:06.is not your identity, not your citizenship. If you want the
:10:06. > :10:10.punishment to fit the crime, why not strip people who have committed
:10:10. > :10:13.electoral fraud of their voting rights? I think they are, and there
:10:13. > :10:18.are conditions to do with fraud where you are stripped of your
:10:18. > :10:21.voting rights. That could be the appropriate punishment. What we
:10:21. > :10:25.have is present -- prison governors and inspectors, the people who are
:10:25. > :10:28.running the system, the vast majority think that prisoners
:10:28. > :10:33.Boateng ought to be an ordinary part of prisoners taking
:10:33. > :10:36.responsibility, an ordinary part of resettlement and rehabilitation. It
:10:36. > :10:40.is strange that politicians seem prepared to flout international
:10:40. > :10:47.lock, to break the law so that people cannot act responsibly. It
:10:47. > :10:57.is very strange. David Blunkett? is good to talk you. Juliet is
:10:57. > :11:03.doing a first-rate job. The contradictions of, where does the
:11:03. > :11:08.prisoner, with severe crimes, they should have their voting rights
:11:08. > :11:13.withdrawn, but when you're in jail for her any period of time, you
:11:13. > :11:17.lose contact with the area we live, would you vote? I do not think the
:11:17. > :11:20.people in Durham would be pleased to know that the swing vote of the
:11:20. > :11:24.prison population in their area would make a difference to who was
:11:24. > :11:28.their MP. And neither would die. The I wonder about costing. To
:11:28. > :11:32.enable prisoners in different parts of the country to be voting and get
:11:32. > :11:36.their boats transported, is that what people are aggravated about?
:11:36. > :11:40.We are acting like this is a madcap movement. We are in the minority.
:11:40. > :11:44.The majority of countries either have no restrictions, Switzerland,
:11:44. > :11:47.Scandinavian countries, or like France and Germany they say, if
:11:47. > :11:50.you're in for a minor crime, the judge will not put a penalty on you
:11:50. > :11:57.and if you are, as an additional punishment, you will lose the right
:11:57. > :12:00.to vote. It is us, Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia, the well-known
:12:00. > :12:06.bastions of liberal democracy(!), who were saying that we're going to
:12:06. > :12:10.do this blanket ban, because we want to look tough? It does not
:12:10. > :12:13.matter what other countries do, we have to do what is right for us.
:12:13. > :12:20.You do not think it suggests something about being reasonable,
:12:20. > :12:24.but there is a compromise, not a blanket ban? I do not think so.
:12:24. > :12:28.There is not a compromise. If you are in prison, that is it, you lose
:12:28. > :12:33.that right to vote. After all, it is something very precious to be
:12:33. > :12:43.able to vote. And it is part of our democracy. If you end up inside,
:12:43. > :12:44.
:12:44. > :12:50.that is it. He it is much easier to keep it simple. -- it is much
:12:50. > :12:52.easier. Professor Tony Kelly is a Professor of human rights at the
:12:52. > :12:59.University of Strathclyde. I was struck that so many people in this
:12:59. > :13:02.country do not vote at all. More than half of people aged 18 to 24.
:13:02. > :13:10.If prisoners got the vote, could it be regarded as a cool thing to do,
:13:10. > :13:18.an edgy thing? I think what happened in Ireland, very quickly
:13:18. > :13:23.and discreetly they moved the issue forward. Research over their showed
:13:23. > :13:27.that people who are good citizens in relation to the right to vote,
:13:27. > :13:31.they continued to do that whilst inside, and those who did not come
:13:31. > :13:36.from a culture of boating come up with that did not happen, that did
:13:36. > :13:40.not continue. -- culture of voting. Given so many people do not use
:13:40. > :13:44.their right to vote, do you think this could be part of a positive
:13:44. > :13:48.exercise to get people to take this seriously? I do nothing prisoners
:13:48. > :13:52.are fighting for it. We do not have people fighting for the right to
:13:52. > :13:57.vote in the UK as a whole, and we need to encourage that through
:13:57. > :14:02.citizenship classes in school, through better citizenship and
:14:02. > :14:06.adult education, through encouraging people to put aside
:14:06. > :14:09.cynicism and I do not think giving prisoners the right to vote will
:14:09. > :14:13.make a difference to them. It will make a difference to them. Prisons
:14:13. > :14:16.are supposed to be places where you want people to come out better than
:14:16. > :14:20.they went in. That does not happen right balance we have horrible
:14:20. > :14:23.reoffending rates. It is about encouraging citizenship and a
:14:23. > :14:28.proactive response. There is no reason why we could not encourage
:14:28. > :14:31.them to be more responsible by encouraging those of them you're
:14:31. > :14:35.not serious criminals, and saying, look, this is something that
:14:35. > :14:40.encourages you to get back into society. Right now we have 80%
:14:40. > :14:44.reoffending rates. The first thing to do is to understand a crime.
:14:44. > :14:48.Voting is way down the line. Some of us regard voting as a
:14:48. > :14:55.fundamental part of our Britishness. I understand that. Even a woman who
:14:55. > :14:58.steals a pair of jeans? A 10 pound pair of jeans? She is never going
:14:58. > :15:02.to go in side, for shoplifting. will be very interesting to see
:15:02. > :15:06.what the Attorney General comes up with. He and the Prime Minister do
:15:06. > :15:10.not see eye-to-eye on this. We have already revealed some of the
:15:10. > :15:13.contradictions this morning. If you get sent to jail for the short term,
:15:13. > :15:21.you might not actually be affected at all because he will not hit an
:15:21. > :15:26.election. So what is arbitrary, we all agree. We all agree it is
:15:26. > :15:30.arbitrary. We will see what happens in November when these fines come
:15:30. > :15:34.into force. The Government insists it will not lift the ban. Some
:15:34. > :15:38.comments from people at home. Reece says: "If you had been sent to
:15:38. > :15:43.prison, you have been removed from society so you should not have a
:15:43. > :15:49.say on how it is run." Jo says: "I think prisoners should be given the
:15:49. > :15:53.vote as part of a rehabilitation reward system." that is our
:15:53. > :16:03.question today. Thank you for contributing. Should prisoners be
:16:03. > :16:07.
:16:07. > :16:10.Our text number is: Texts will be charged at your
:16:10. > :16:20.standard message rate or you can vote online by going to our
:16:20. > :16:22.
:16:22. > :16:26.Well, it is time for the moral moment and we are going to devote
:16:27. > :16:30.all of it to one topic, a very important topic, the scale of abuse
:16:30. > :16:34.being uncovered around Jimmy Savile has got the nation talking about
:16:34. > :16:37.how we deal with protecting our children. Is what emerging day by
:16:37. > :16:42.day as hundreds of victims have been coming forward evidence of how
:16:42. > :16:47.much attitudes have changed or only weeks after the Rochdale sexual
:16:47. > :16:51.abuse rev revelations do we need to re-think how we deal with
:16:51. > :16:56.exploitation? What should we be telling our children and when
:16:56. > :17:04.should we be calling in the authorities if we have suspicions
:17:04. > :17:11.or no proof? A colleague of mine said, "We look on the 1970s as a
:17:11. > :17:17.result of this, the decade we feel morally superior to." Are we
:17:17. > :17:23.opening and closing a chapter on a period or actually is it ongoing.
:17:23. > :17:29.Mehdi? I was born at the end of the 70s. One of the problems we have
:17:29. > :17:33.now, one of the problems with this this crime, it is hard to measure,
:17:33. > :17:38.with the Jimmy Savile abuse, we have seen hundreds of victims come
:17:38. > :17:41.forward. It is hard to measure. So many young women in particular, you
:17:41. > :17:45.know, just covered it up themselves and didn't want to talk about it
:17:45. > :17:49.that you can't have a barometer of how good and bad it was. In the
:17:49. > :17:52.media, in the BBC for example, I don't think a modern day Jimmy
:17:53. > :17:58.Savile would get away with what a Jimmy Savile got away with in the
:17:58. > :18:01.60s and 70s. In parts of the country, in deprived communities
:18:01. > :18:08.for example, in Rochdale, it is the most obvious example, you have
:18:08. > :18:11.paedophile rings. You have social workers and local authorities
:18:11. > :18:15.letting young women and children down. It is a difficult balance to
:18:15. > :18:18.strike to say whether we have moved forward or back.
:18:18. > :18:22.David, what do you think of that idea that we are looking back a
:18:22. > :18:28.long distance in the past? I am glad we are debating the children
:18:28. > :18:31.rather than the BBC because it has become an obsession.
:18:31. > :18:34.People are concerned about child safety? I am concerned in looking
:18:34. > :18:38.back with all the people who were involved in not hearing the
:18:38. > :18:41.youngsters and it is a really difficult thing to say because none
:18:41. > :18:44.of us would ever want to be in that position and it is hard to put
:18:44. > :18:48.yourself in that position, but where were the people around the
:18:48. > :18:52.children? You see, ChildLine was set-up because children didn't have
:18:52. > :18:57.a voice, because children weren't being heard. I think therefore, as
:18:57. > :19:01.a society and from family outwards, we should ask ourselves rather than
:19:01. > :19:05.turning on the next person and saying, "Where were you? Did you
:19:05. > :19:09.hear? Did you know." When this was going around around us, it was with
:19:09. > :19:18.the transfer of kids to Australia. I was was Australia when Kevin Rudd
:19:18. > :19:24.did the apology. We have had it it with the churches. We have had a
:19:24. > :19:28.virus running through our care homes.
:19:28. > :19:34.They came into the profession because they cared and it is a
:19:34. > :19:37.massive challenge and if we face up to listening and of course, the
:19:37. > :19:42.standards have changed. I mean, they have. We have to learn from
:19:42. > :19:47.the past even though we can't live in it and we are at the moment
:19:47. > :19:51.understandably in all sorts of areas of our life looking back and
:19:51. > :19:55.saying, "Why didn't we apply those standards then?" The answer is
:19:55. > :19:59.because thank goodness we moved on. We are Moran Graal. We are trying
:19:59. > :20:02.to get to the truth and we are trying to secure the wellbeing of
:20:02. > :20:06.youngsters. You will be aware of what emerged
:20:07. > :20:11.about Hillsborough, David, it is in your constituency, but the scale of
:20:11. > :20:14.cover-up emerging about that, it is a different case. It suggests there
:20:14. > :20:18.was a problem with the authorities and their attitudes to certain
:20:18. > :20:23.people? Yes, there was. The one thing the families achieved is to
:20:23. > :20:26.get to the fact that there was that cover-up. There was a major problem
:20:27. > :20:30.in trying to set something aside and we have got a similar,
:20:30. > :20:35.different, but a similar issue in terms of the way people behaved and
:20:35. > :20:40.reacted then. Alison, what's your view looking
:20:40. > :20:43.back on that period? There is concern that it is turning to a
:20:43. > :20:47.witch-hunt and people look to go criticise people's lifestyles.
:20:47. > :20:51.Perhaps there was different standards then? I don't see the 70s
:20:51. > :20:55.as being worse than the 50s or anything like that really. I think
:20:55. > :20:58.a lot of it has come to light because of much, much better
:20:58. > :21:01.communication so that we are very much aware of what is going on. I
:21:01. > :21:07.also think that it is really very good that people are now talking
:21:07. > :21:11.about it in a way that they perhaps weren't and it was swept under the
:21:11. > :21:14.carpet. As someone who is a magistrate. I
:21:14. > :21:18.am struck by the fact that people couldn't tell an adult people and
:21:18. > :21:22.the few who did, got disbelieved. Do you think that has changed for
:21:22. > :21:28.the better despite places like Rochdale? I am not sure that it has.
:21:28. > :21:31.There is a huge fear of coming out with something and you won't be
:21:31. > :21:38.believed or people don't want to believe you because it is so
:21:38. > :21:42.horrible and I remember one of my first cases on incest when I was a
:21:42. > :21:48.McStraight and it is years ago, I remember being astonished that this
:21:48. > :21:52.was actually happening. Now, I wasn't naive, but to come to court
:21:52. > :21:56.gave me a great surprise and how dreadful it was. There is more
:21:56. > :22:00.going on that we have ever imagined for a long time, I think, but it
:22:00. > :22:03.has always been there. But I'm really, really glad that this has
:22:03. > :22:06.come out into the open in the way that it has.
:22:06. > :22:10.Finish. I think it is good that we can
:22:10. > :22:13.start to think positively, but whether we will still want to not
:22:13. > :22:19.believe what children say is another matter.
:22:19. > :22:23.Yes, Mehdi. One of the things that came out
:22:23. > :22:27.Keir Starmer admitted that the Criminal Justice System failed
:22:27. > :22:29.because of stereotypes. Even in 2012 that the young girls in
:22:29. > :22:33.Rochdale, they are prostitutes, they are asking for it, not treated
:22:33. > :22:37.as children, but treated as something different. It is
:22:37. > :22:41.outrageous and now the CPS is setting up new prosecutors to deal
:22:41. > :22:51.with it. It is too late for many victims. Let's hope for future
:22:51. > :23:00.victims it will work. Where were they before? Why this disbelief?
:23:00. > :23:04.are criticising the 70s, but Rochdale was rinelt. Was recent.
:23:04. > :23:09.And even Newsnight. The girls weren't that young. Those attitudes
:23:09. > :23:14.are disturbing. I am wondering are parents thinking,
:23:14. > :23:18."When should I be calling in the police?" When I was a teenager, we
:23:18. > :23:22.had incidents with creepy old men and we told each other to steer
:23:22. > :23:28.clear of them. I am assuming if children are telling their parents,
:23:28. > :23:31.when do the parents call in the police police? If you you didn't
:23:31. > :23:35.witness something would you really call in the police on the basis of
:23:35. > :23:39.creepy remarks? I have cases where people approached the police and
:23:39. > :23:43.where the police have done a partially descent job and the Crown
:23:43. > :23:47.Prosecution Service said, "Sorry, we can't prosecute. We haven't got
:23:47. > :23:53.sufficient evidence." That lead to real disillusionment and the
:23:53. > :23:58.message does get out. You don't need Twitter and blogs to Mehdi. In
:23:58. > :24:01.my constituency the message gets out by word of mouth. You don't get
:24:02. > :24:06.treated seriously. Nothing will happen so why report it? Let's live
:24:06. > :24:14.with it. We have got to get over that. We have with domestic
:24:14. > :24:17.violence. It is better now in terms of the way the justice system
:24:17. > :24:22.treats that. Alison.
:24:22. > :24:25.There is a break down with parents and teenagers, they don't talk to
:24:25. > :24:30.one another. I don't know how we get over that. It is because of the
:24:30. > :24:35.way children have their lives today, sitting in front of television,
:24:35. > :24:38.blogging, you know, computers, phones. The art of conversation is
:24:38. > :24:43.disappearing and I think that's very, very important that we should
:24:43. > :24:48.be able to discuss more freely and it it doesn't happen.
:24:48. > :24:55.When do you call in the authorities? This might make me
:24:55. > :25:00.unpopular. Sooner rather than later. I am not an alarmist, I think we
:25:00. > :25:08.fear monger too much, but when it comes to children's protection,
:25:08. > :25:12.would like to be on the side of the fear mongerer. My instincts are
:25:12. > :25:19.with you. The next contradiction I have in my head is we don't let
:25:19. > :25:25.children play out. We don't let them do things they used to do. It
:25:25. > :25:29.is a contradiction, you see. It is not a contradiction in that I
:25:29. > :25:33.would be much tougher with my children if they are playing out.
:25:33. > :25:36.Freedom is fine, but if there is a risk to your child, you have every
:25:36. > :25:39.right as a parent... A lot of the times, the risk is not there. We
:25:39. > :25:44.are making it up because it is so in our faces and the communications
:25:44. > :25:47.are so good that children are forbidden to go and forbidden to
:25:47. > :25:52.play because everybody is worrying about it.
:25:52. > :26:00.As a parent, my instinct is be be over protective.
:26:00. > :26:05.I know this is a story, we will be talking about for weeks.
:26:05. > :26:12.Thank you for for talk being it. You can join the conversation on
:26:12. > :26:16.Twitter, phone, text or e-mail. The RAF announced a new squadron of
:26:16. > :26:21.unmanned drones would for the first time be operating from UK soil.
:26:21. > :26:24.Armed with 500lb bombs, the ten drones will support coalition
:26:24. > :26:28.forces in Afghanistan. The Ministry of Defence said they would be used
:26:28. > :26:32.for surveillance and recon reconnaissance.
:26:32. > :26:36.The use of drones itself is nothing new. The RAF has been flying
:26:36. > :26:42.intelligence gathering drones over Afghanistan from a base in the US
:26:42. > :26:47.since 2008. But the Ministry of Defence's own report in 2011 warn
:26:47. > :26:52.of a terminator reality and urged Britain to come up with a policy
:26:52. > :26:55.promoting what they deem acceptable machine behaviour. Some critics are
:26:55. > :27:02.uncomfortable with them. Drones maybe a leap forward, but are they
:27:02. > :27:08.a moral way to wage war? Opponents of drones say killing with
:27:08. > :27:13.joysticks gives war a PlayStation mentality. They believe it is a
:27:13. > :27:19.cheap and easy way to kill and risks too many innocent sismians
:27:19. > :27:23.and by -- civilians, and by increasing our use of them, are we
:27:23. > :27:28.encouraging the rest of the world to follow suit. Those who use them,
:27:28. > :27:32.say they increase the accuracy of armed drones minimising unnecessary
:27:32. > :27:38.bloodshed. Missions can be under stean without risk to pilots and
:27:38. > :27:41.help reduce the cost of human and financial collateral. If the UK is
:27:41. > :27:47.to maintain its position as a leading military nation, can it
:27:47. > :27:54.ignore this cost effective technology? Or should we resist the
:27:54. > :28:01.urge for robot wars? You can join the kfrs the
:28:01. > :28:06.conversation on Twitter, phone or text. We are joined by rabbi
:28:06. > :28:11.Jonathan Romain. Jonathan is a passionate Reading football
:28:11. > :28:15.supporter and can't understand why god hasn't answered his his prayers
:28:15. > :28:21.for a win. Unlike the Taliban who are the main enemy, there is a
:28:21. > :28:25.sense that drones are an attempt to target, to discriminate and be
:28:25. > :28:30.accurate? Can I applaud the BBC for debating this subject. In my view
:28:30. > :28:34.the drones as used where they are used most for example in Pakistan
:28:34. > :28:37.which the CIA are immoral. I think they are illegal and they are
:28:37. > :28:42.counter productive. They create more terrorists than they kill and
:28:42. > :28:48.as you said in that intro, there is an allegation of a PlayStation
:28:48. > :28:55.mentality. It makes killing seductive. You are more likely to
:28:55. > :28:59.kill than capture. The facts are these, since 2004, between 500 and
:28:59. > :29:03.900 civilians have been killed in Pakistan by CIA drones. The CIA's
:29:03. > :29:06.own former in house lawyer called it a form of murder last year. The
:29:06. > :29:09.UN is investigating to see if it is a war crime. We have to really
:29:09. > :29:12.discuss this. There is no transparency, there is no
:29:12. > :29:16.accountability. No one really talks about it Obama and the
:29:16. > :29:20.administration doesn't want to talk about it, but it happens and in
:29:20. > :29:23.Pakistan 70% of the public regard the United States and the West as
:29:23. > :29:27.an an me because a lot of people in that country are living under
:29:27. > :29:31.terror. Jonathan? I disagree. War is
:29:32. > :29:36.terrible and if we can do anything to avoid it, let's try the the
:29:36. > :29:39.peaceful way. If you are going to go to war, then you want to do it
:29:39. > :29:43.as effectively as possible. That means not only locking out the
:29:43. > :29:48.enemy, but protecting your troops. The advantage of a drone, it means
:29:48. > :29:58.the British pilot is not in it. If it means one less British soldier
:29:58. > :30:01.coming home in a coffin or going to Wootton Bassett. It is moral
:30:01. > :30:05.scweechishness to say there is any difference between a drone attack
:30:05. > :30:11.and someone dropping a bomb from a high altitude bomber or missile
:30:11. > :30:15.launch. Unless you are going to go back to the days of war when you
:30:15. > :30:23.kill a person with a gun. Unless you are going to go back to those
:30:23. > :30:33.days where it is one-to-one combat. War is dirt why and you should --
:30:33. > :30:35.
:30:35. > :30:40.dirty and you should make drones as pro circumstances accurate. -- --
:30:40. > :30:46.precision accurate. The Pakistan Government says we
:30:47. > :30:52.don't give you permission to this? Can Russia send drones into
:30:52. > :31:02.Georgia? Would you allow another country? We are not at war with
:31:02. > :31:04.
:31:04. > :31:08.A good thing we are accepting that if we are formally at war, a drone
:31:08. > :31:11.is no more unacceptable than using mustard gas in the First World War
:31:11. > :31:17.or the nuclear bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. If we are not at war,
:31:17. > :31:20.or when is it morally justifiable? I do not believe that the attitude
:31:20. > :31:28.to the Pakistanis is driven by the drones, I think it is more complex
:31:28. > :31:35.than that. On that border country, where nobody controls anything, is
:31:35. > :31:40.a drone justifiable in terms of taking out the Taliban? Is it?
:31:40. > :31:45.it the Taliban? We do not know who we are killing, David. What about
:31:45. > :31:49.the shooting of that schoolgirl, the Pakistani Taliban claimed
:31:49. > :31:56.responsibility for that. Is that not the kind of group that people
:31:56. > :32:00.want to see a dealt with? People were outraged when the Taliban shot
:32:00. > :32:04.that schoolgirl, but American drones have killed hundreds of
:32:05. > :32:08.schoolgirls. Let me tell you why it is morally unacceptable. Two very
:32:08. > :32:12.important reasons. One, the American government does not just
:32:12. > :32:15.attack the Taliban. They have revealed that any adult male in the
:32:15. > :32:19.strikes on is considered a militant. If you are standing half-a-mile
:32:20. > :32:25.away from a terrorist and you get blown up, you are a terrorist. That
:32:25. > :32:31.is their policy. The second point is this, it is not just personality
:32:31. > :32:34.strikes, a high-value leader, they kill signature strikes, which is a
:32:34. > :32:40.target of a bunch of people who look suspicious, therefore we are
:32:40. > :32:44.taking them out. In Yemen, everyone carries a gun. You are debating
:32:44. > :32:48.whether the intelligent is sophisticated -- the intelligence
:32:48. > :32:52.is sophisticated enough to do this. I think what you describe as having
:32:52. > :32:58.been revealed in May is unacceptable, morally. I think
:32:58. > :33:02.targeting specific individuals or groups who are threatening your
:33:02. > :33:09.troops and the well-being of the world... But how do we know that?
:33:09. > :33:12.How do we not? After the Iraq war, intelligence has been discredited.
:33:12. > :33:17.That does not mean we cannot use it because otherwise we would sit on
:33:17. > :33:22.our hands and wait for them to hit us. Nobody is defending attacking
:33:22. > :33:29.civilians. You sounded like you were earlier, you said moral
:33:29. > :33:34.squeamishness. To be honest, I feel very strongly about this. I think
:33:35. > :33:41.it is wrong to focus on America because at least 12 or 13 nations
:33:41. > :33:45.use drones. The first drones were used in the Iraq war against Iran.
:33:45. > :33:49.This is an internal debate. Ever since weapons have been invented,
:33:49. > :33:52.right back to the crossbow, where you could target people 200 yards
:33:52. > :33:58.away. I do not see any difference provided you can make sure that
:33:58. > :34:03.your intelligence is good. The CIA uses it to take out terror suspect.
:34:03. > :34:07.Yes, and I am very glad that they do. I would like to put them on
:34:07. > :34:13.trial and prosecute them. Some of us would like a rule of law. Some
:34:13. > :34:16.of us would like due process and trials. President Obama kills US
:34:16. > :34:23.citizens. Are you feel strongly about this and you should, and it
:34:23. > :34:26.is an important debate, but did you feel the same about Scud missiles?
:34:26. > :34:30.As he said earlier, there is a separate debate about warfare is
:34:30. > :34:34.and what weapons are legitimate, but I'm talking about the use of
:34:34. > :34:39.targeted drawn strikes against people who the Government say are
:34:39. > :34:45.terrorists. Can I bring in someone you might want to hear from? James
:34:45. > :34:50.Geoffrey is a former captain and the British Army. I understand you
:34:50. > :34:56.certain Afghanistan and you oversaw their support. Did you ever used a
:34:56. > :35:03.tactical drone? Thank you for having me. I worked with drones for
:35:03. > :35:05.seven months in Afghanistan. Part of my role was to obtain trolls --
:35:05. > :35:10.obtain drones and hand him over to the troops on the ground, providing
:35:10. > :35:15.an element of oversight as the drones were used. I sometimes use
:35:15. > :35:19.them myself. I think there are two aspects, and I had been listening
:35:19. > :35:25.to the panelists making relevant points. I think there are two
:35:25. > :35:30.points I would like to make that are relevant. I think it is
:35:30. > :35:36.worthwhile to take the trajectory of my career in the army as an
:35:36. > :35:41.example of a shift in how we are increasingly using an viewing our
:35:41. > :35:47.military. -- using and viewing. have limited time, focus on your
:35:47. > :35:53.experience. When I joined the military, it was on the back end of
:35:53. > :35:58.the Balkans. That was inspiring, to see how the soldiers were used. I
:35:58. > :36:05.joined the military for that kind of soldiering. By 2004, I was in
:36:05. > :36:09.Iraq as a tank commander. We were engaging men in the streets of Iraq.
:36:09. > :36:14.Into this and the nine, I was stood by a police -- computer screen,
:36:14. > :36:21.watching people get obliterated. Did you make a decision? Tell us
:36:21. > :36:28.about your targeting decisions? point is... Were you sure it was a
:36:28. > :36:35.child or a militant? The point is, I was overseeing these strikes. I
:36:35. > :36:39.was watching it remotely. The point I'm trying to make is that there
:36:39. > :36:44.are two types of Control for these drones. There is tight won control,
:36:44. > :36:48.were you have a soldier on the ground, eyeballing a target, and
:36:48. > :36:53.there is tied two control where it is done remotely. That is how I was
:36:53. > :36:56.trained. It is all done on a computer screen. Did you find that
:36:56. > :37:04.morally repugnant? Did you feel that there were mistakes being
:37:04. > :37:08.made? Is that you unease? -- you're unease. Miami's is the shift
:37:08. > :37:15.towards remote warfare. -- my unease. I think it is going to
:37:15. > :37:18.increase. There was a famous case involving James Geoffrey where he
:37:18. > :37:22.was targeting a person and then he realised that the person was a
:37:23. > :37:26.child and with that precision technology, they were able to call
:37:26. > :37:30.off the operation. People will look at it the other way round which is
:37:30. > :37:35.that he could have called it. that applies to everything,
:37:35. > :37:37.including a high altitude bomber or a Scud missile attack. I want to
:37:37. > :37:41.bring in Elizabeth from the Royal United Services Institute. We have
:37:42. > :37:46.been discussing the idea that with these decisions, innocent civilians
:37:46. > :37:53.can be mistaken for legitimate targets. Can you claim that Tron
:37:53. > :37:57.technology is that accurate? drone technology. I think we need
:37:57. > :38:05.to understand that there are a variety of different drones. With
:38:05. > :38:08.larger drones, there can be more discrepancies. The smaller ones are
:38:09. > :38:12.for looking over hills. Do you think people are able to use them
:38:12. > :38:20.as accurately as we would like to think or are the mistakes being
:38:20. > :38:25.made? There are a couple of cases in the media, one were a Reaper
:38:25. > :38:29.drone operator noticed that a group of people they were about to target,
:38:29. > :38:39.one was not walking correctly. It turns out that he was special
:38:39. > :38:46.forces. He was in the skies. They managed to identify and because
:38:46. > :38:56.they had intelligence alongside them. -- in disguise. By one to
:38:56. > :39:00.bring in another contributor. Hever joins us, and she is a researcher
:39:00. > :39:05.from Human Rights Watch. One can argue that the technology is moving
:39:05. > :39:09.forward and in a way, are we not having the luxury of a debate about
:39:09. > :39:13.this, where war used to be far more brittle and less discriminatory. --
:39:13. > :39:16.discriminatory. The technology has moved on but the way to ensure that
:39:16. > :39:20.it is accountable and complies with international law has to evolve
:39:20. > :39:24.with the technology. There seems to be a gap in that regard. If you
:39:24. > :39:27.look at what the UK is doing, the information they had shared, they
:39:27. > :39:31.have said that there have been four civilian casualties caused by
:39:31. > :39:34.drones but they have no idea how many insurgents have been killed.
:39:34. > :39:39.Their method for counting the number of civilian casualties
:39:40. > :39:43.depends entirely on families coming and complaining, which is a
:39:43. > :39:50.completely ineffectual way of trying to gather that information.
:39:50. > :39:54.It looks like there is a decision to not look for bad news, which is
:39:54. > :39:58.not a fair and accountable way of using this technology. Jonathan,
:39:58. > :40:02.and so that briefly. Absolutely right, we need to improve the
:40:02. > :40:07.technology and the precision. But the morality of having drones is
:40:07. > :40:11.just as good as the morality of having a machine gun, or having a
:40:11. > :40:15.tank going over soldiers. It is just the next advance in war but we
:40:15. > :40:19.need to make sure it is as accountable as possible. In a sense,
:40:19. > :40:23.I agree, it is not about the technology, it is about the
:40:23. > :40:26.morality of what you do with them. Drones have been used to target not
:40:26. > :40:31.just terrorists, but people at the funerals of those terrorists,
:40:31. > :40:37.rescuers who have come to the site. 23 people have died in the
:40:37. > :40:43.aftermath, in secondary strikes. That is what suicide bombers do.
:40:43. > :40:47.And although that has happened with more traditional weapons, it is
:40:47. > :40:51.important that we have had this debate. It has made me think and I
:40:51. > :40:53.think it is really important. couple of comments from viewers.
:40:53. > :40:59.couple of comments from viewers. couple of comments from viewers.
:40:59. > :41:05.Lee says: "They are the weapons of cowards. Gary says,"White use
:41:05. > :41:09.soldiers when drones can identify targets?"Allen says that drones are
:41:09. > :41:11.a logical extension of the need to a logical extension of the need to
:41:11. > :41:14.kill rather than be killed. Thank you all for your contributions.
:41:14. > :41:17.you all for your contributions. Coming up, should the way we live
:41:17. > :41:24.our lives be shaped by a fear of the afterlife? Make your views
:41:24. > :41:26.known by phone, e-mail or online. And you be voting in our poll on
:41:26. > :41:28.whether prisoners should be given the right to vote. Please do not
:41:28. > :41:32.the right to vote. Please do not text us because you vote will not
:41:32. > :41:38.count but you may still be charged. The online voters now closed. We
:41:38. > :41:44.will bring you the result at the end of the show. -- vote is now
:41:44. > :41:48.closed. Wednesday is Hallowe'en, popular for trick or treating and
:41:48. > :41:53.dressing up as witches. Hallowe'en is based more traditionally on an
:41:53. > :41:57.ancient pagan festival. But it also heralds the arrival of All Souls
:41:57. > :42:01.Day, where many Christians remember the dead and pray for departing
:42:01. > :42:05.souls lingering in purgatory. The question of what happens to us
:42:05. > :42:09.after we die is something better monetary has doubled -- humanity
:42:09. > :42:12.has puzzled over for centuries. The concept of an afterlife holds the
:42:12. > :42:17.promise of eternal reward and the threat of everlasting punishment
:42:17. > :42:20.for those of faith. Is this fear of hell in reasonable method of
:42:20. > :42:24.influencing our behaviour? Some people of faith claim that our
:42:24. > :42:27.moral compasses directed by the long term compasses -- consequences
:42:27. > :42:31.of our actions and some religious leaders have tried to instil fear
:42:31. > :42:34.of damnation into their congregations over the centuries.
:42:34. > :42:38.But the signs and secularism of today's world undermines the
:42:38. > :42:44.concept of an afterlife with many arguing that when we die we turn to
:42:44. > :42:47.dust. For them, a fear of hell is unhealthy and limited. Is feeling
:42:47. > :42:52.the afterlife a healthy incentive for us all to be good and moral
:42:52. > :42:56.citizens, or is it an outdated theoretical concept which we should
:42:56. > :43:00.ignore and trust our own sense of what is right and wrong? Alison
:43:00. > :43:03.Ruoff joins us for this discussion. Some people have mixed feelings
:43:03. > :43:07.about Hallowe'en, whether it is too commercialised and whether it
:43:07. > :43:11.represents something dark. I want to ask you, Alison, someone of
:43:11. > :43:16.Christian faith, did you bring up your children to fear or hell as
:43:16. > :43:21.part of their moral upbringing? -- fear hell. I do not think that
:43:21. > :43:25.brought them up to fear hell, but we have always talked about it.
:43:25. > :43:28.Certainly in the Christian Church today, you were here that God is
:43:28. > :43:31.the god of love, and you do not hear about the other side of his
:43:31. > :43:36.character which is not reached about, that he is a God of justice
:43:36. > :43:44.and judgment. You come to Easter and you think, why did Jesus Christ
:43:44. > :43:50.come to die if hell does not really matter? So you do think it is right
:43:50. > :43:53.to fear it, that it is part of how you live? It is very important.
:43:53. > :43:58.People go about their lives to their detriment without even
:43:58. > :44:01.thinking about it. I was at the funeral not long ago and everybody
:44:01. > :44:04.was going to heaven, it did not matter whether you had been to
:44:04. > :44:08.church are you had any Christian faith, you were all going to heaven
:44:08. > :44:11.and Jesus Christ did not even come into it. It was outrageous. This
:44:11. > :44:16.was a Christian vicar and you're thinking, where is he coming from?
:44:16. > :44:20.But we need to be very much aware of it and it is very important.
:44:20. > :44:24.is interesting. Richard Dawkins has talked about the Old Testament God,
:44:24. > :44:28.which they think of as the God of Judaism, and is a very judgmental
:44:28. > :44:31.one. How should we view it? Is Halle an important concept? Do not
:44:31. > :44:36.believe anyone who tells you what happens in the afterlife because we
:44:36. > :44:40.do not know. No one has ever sent a postcard back. The Jewish point of
:44:41. > :44:46.view is that what counts is this world. Judaism is very vague about
:44:46. > :44:48.the afterlife and, frankly, I'm not sure if there is an afterlife, and
:44:48. > :44:53.whether we have an individual existence. I think it might be like
:44:53. > :44:57.a raindrop which comes from the sky and hit a tree. As it trickles down,
:44:57. > :45:01.that is our individual existence, and then it falls into a puddle.
:45:01. > :45:05.The drop of rain is still there but it has lost its individuality.
:45:06. > :45:10.sounds like Hinduism to me! point is, to say you're going to
:45:10. > :45:13.hell or heaven or purgatory, that is nonsense. If I do not believe in
:45:13. > :45:19.purgatory for at all. I would prefer to talk about this world and
:45:19. > :45:24.what happens in this life. I know it means we lose the carrot-and-
:45:24. > :45:28.stick of Heaven and Hell but there is an inner carrot-and-stick, and
:45:28. > :45:31.on the negative side, I think you should fear doing wrong because of
:45:31. > :45:35.being caught or social disapproval, but on the positive side, you have
:45:36. > :45:39.to live with yourself. To a want to behave in this way? Also, when you
:45:39. > :45:42.look in the mirror at night, are you going to be ashamed of what you
:45:42. > :45:46.see or not? Maybe some people think they can get away with it in this
:45:46. > :45:50.life. I know that I was brought up with a fear of hell and a lot of
:45:50. > :45:56.Muslims are. Most Muslim kids are. I'm leaning towards Jonathan on
:45:56. > :46:00.this discussion, even though Islam tens towards both. You're talking
:46:00. > :46:04.about the God of love and the Court of Justice. It is part of his
:46:04. > :46:08.character. I cannot speak for all Muslims but a lot of my friends, we
:46:08. > :46:13.have heard too much of the Court of Justice and fire and brimstone and
:46:13. > :46:18.not enough of the god of love. Got in all religions is the god of love.
:46:18. > :46:21.There is a famous profit to one said that he worshipped God, not
:46:21. > :46:25.because he feared hell, because he is not a slave, or because he
:46:25. > :46:30.wanted to go to heaven, which is the worship of a businessman, but
:46:30. > :46:35.because he loves him, and he deserved to be worshipped. Is there
:46:35. > :46:39.a judgmental aspect? Is it not relevant, if someone has been
:46:39. > :46:49.murdered, for example, and you do not find justice in this world,
:46:49. > :46:54.does it not matter, the idea that Yes, Jimmy Savile will get some
:46:54. > :46:58.serious justice. On the point about how you use it with your kids.
:46:58. > :47:02.There is this sense a lot of people who scare people into doing things
:47:02. > :47:07.rather than persuade them for the right right reasons. I wouldn't
:47:07. > :47:15.want my child to do the right thing only because she doesn't want to
:47:15. > :47:21.burn in hell. Alison. The New Testament talks
:47:21. > :47:28.about history. And today and forever. So he has not changed.
:47:28. > :47:32.That is his character. But we just don't sort of, we only major on god
:47:32. > :47:37.is god of love and we forget why he allowed his son to come to this
:47:37. > :47:43.world to die for us. Go into a discussion about the
:47:43. > :47:53.notion of after life. This this idea that Hallowe'en can represent
:47:53. > :47:57.
:47:57. > :48:01.something to do with evil and and exorcism exists in the Catholic
:48:01. > :48:07.Church. There is interest in the paranormal and the supernatural and
:48:07. > :48:11.fear about evil. Is that good for Christians like you who believe in
:48:11. > :48:15.an after life? Thank you very much for asking the question. I think
:48:15. > :48:20.what I will say is that there is an after life. I don't think we need
:48:20. > :48:24.to be scared of it. That's the heart of where the Christian
:48:24. > :48:29.message is coming from. I am concerned about the rise in
:48:29. > :48:32.popularity about Hallowe'en because people think there is no need to
:48:32. > :48:37.worry because there is nothing to worry. That leaves the question of
:48:38. > :48:44.what might be true or not and is there a spiritual realm and if
:48:44. > :48:47.there is a spiritual realm, what is it? In Hallowe'en I wonder what we
:48:47. > :48:50.are celebrating. You were talking about Jimmy Savile and the morality
:48:51. > :48:55.of drone strikes and in this section, we have asked the question
:48:55. > :48:59.should we distrust our own sense and do what feels right to us? If
:48:59. > :49:04.we end up celebrating something which is evil because it is
:49:04. > :49:08.pleasurable or we want to do it, what are we doing in our culture
:49:08. > :49:14.culture? There is a bigger question to do with right and wrong and what
:49:14. > :49:20.are we messing with here? There is a big question - why has
:49:20. > :49:24.Hallowe'en become more popular than it was 30 or 40 years ago? The
:49:24. > :49:28.traditional religions are losing their power and Hallowe'en
:49:28. > :49:33.represents ritual and represents people coming together and it means,
:49:33. > :49:38.I think it is a deeper thing, it is a matter of people confronting
:49:38. > :49:41.another type of darkness either their own inner darkness or the
:49:41. > :49:44.outer darkness. Tas rough world and it is a -- it is a rough world and
:49:44. > :49:50.it is a horrible world and Hallowe'en expresses that for those
:49:50. > :49:58.people who don't find it in the Christian, Muslim, Jewish faith.
:49:58. > :50:02.It does go back to pagan origins, cultures like Mexico have a day of
:50:02. > :50:08.the dead. It is about death, isn't it? There is an elm of truth in
:50:08. > :50:16.that, but from a church prospective whether you are Catholic, orthodox,
:50:16. > :50:22.it is not so so much about the dead, but celebrating those who may have
:50:22. > :50:27.been able to to conquer and to pull those things together. When we talk
:50:27. > :50:31.about going to the after life, we get there because god forgives
:50:31. > :50:37.everybody and everybody gets there including Jimmy Savile and that
:50:37. > :50:42.seems unfair. Some people don't go and what we we see happening at the
:50:42. > :50:47.cross is justice is upheld and evil is punished and that's why Jesus
:50:47. > :50:57.Christ comes into this world and instead of god ignoring the
:50:57. > :51:00.
:51:00. > :51:10.requirements of justice, evil is punished and wrongdoing is punished
:51:10. > :51:10.
:51:11. > :51:13.and through cross - if there is no hope of redemption you would keep
:51:13. > :51:23.living in the wrong direction all your life.
:51:23. > :51:27.Michael. Dr Susan is a psychologist who once investigated the
:51:27. > :51:33.paranormal. Jonathan was saying no one ever sends a postcard back from
:51:33. > :51:36.the after life. I wonder if that's your view? What effect does it have
:51:36. > :51:39.if you believe in the after life and there is something after we
:51:39. > :51:44.die? I don't think there is anything after we die for two
:51:45. > :51:48.reasons. Scientificically, the more we learn about the brain, the less
:51:48. > :51:51.conceivable there is that there is anybody in there. The brain does
:51:51. > :51:55.the demaking, action, learning, memory, it is all there in the
:51:55. > :51:59.brain and the body. When that goes, what is left? But also if you have,
:51:59. > :52:05.I have had many experiences, I have been meditating for 30 years and it
:52:05. > :52:09.is common in such experiences to delve into who am I and find you
:52:09. > :52:15.don't know? There isn't somebody in there. It doesn't make the sense of
:52:15. > :52:22.the after life at all to me. I disagree with Alison's view because
:52:22. > :52:27.people who are threatened by hell, promised heaven, are more anxious,
:52:27. > :52:33.for frightened, they are ladened with guilt. And they are man
:52:33. > :52:35.ippable by whatever religious says you should do this. I am sorry,
:52:35. > :52:40.Alison, I am not wrong because there is evidence and there is
:52:40. > :52:47.evidence of people becoming more anxious. There is evidence also
:52:47. > :52:51.that non-believers and atheists believe as well and in many cases
:52:51. > :52:54.better, than Christian believers. This is in terms of how much they
:52:54. > :52:58.volunteer for community work, how much money they give to charity and
:52:58. > :53:03.those things. It doesn't work threatening people. We need to
:53:03. > :53:08.believe our own inner self. I have no desire to threaten anybody,
:53:08. > :53:15.Susan. It is nothing to with that. Lots of people can live a good life,
:53:15. > :53:19.but that won't get you to heaven, it is about believing in Jesus
:53:19. > :53:22.Christ because god sees him for what I have I have done in terms of
:53:23. > :53:28.my sinful life and I go on doing that, but I know I am forgiven
:53:28. > :53:38.through Jesus. One thing the guest said that
:53:38. > :53:42.
:53:42. > :53:47.struck me is the manipuable line. It has been used as a threat?
:53:47. > :53:52.think it is misused by certain people. Especially extremists to
:53:52. > :53:55.enforce certain rules and rulings on the threat of, if you don't do
:53:55. > :53:59.this, you will burn. You hear that too often in some parts of the
:53:59. > :54:05.world. But that is not in the Christian
:54:05. > :54:08.faith. Judaism talks a lot about heaven.
:54:08. > :54:12.How do you get to heaven and there is a market place and two people
:54:12. > :54:17.are told they are going to heaven. Who are they? They are told they
:54:17. > :54:21.are merry makers. Our job is to bring happiness to people who are
:54:21. > :54:25.sad and it is about the here and now and how we operate and interact
:54:25. > :54:32.with each other. One of our guests talked about the
:54:32. > :54:38.pagan routes of Hallowe'en being something wrong. We are joined by a
:54:38. > :54:41.druid from from Stonehenge. You know people are cynical. Some
:54:41. > :54:46.people might think it is funny. Other people regard you as threat.
:54:46. > :54:52.What would you say about the after life and how you view it?
:54:52. > :54:56.OK, well, I mean, we are here at Stonehenge campaigning for the
:54:56. > :55:02.return of ancient human remains because Hallowe'en for us is a time
:55:02. > :55:06.for honouring the ancestors, those who went for, the giant on who we
:55:06. > :55:10.sit. Death is not to be feared. It is part of the natural cycle of
:55:10. > :55:13.life and that's what people are missing. It is a road we take as
:55:13. > :55:17.pagans and druids, we don't practise what you refer to as a
:55:17. > :55:25.cult or the supernatural, we believe in the natural cycle of
:55:25. > :55:29.life and death. There is a divine spark within all things. We have
:55:29. > :55:35.been here since the beginning of time and we will endure after death.
:55:35. > :55:38.Death for us, isn't something to be feared. In spirit -- it is a spirit
:55:38. > :55:43.we will always endure. . Jonathan? The greatest fear that
:55:43. > :55:47.you can have you come to the end of your life and look back and feel it
:55:47. > :55:52.is wasted. That's the heaven and hell when you reach the end and say,
:55:52. > :55:57."Why didn't I do my life better?". The facing up to death which Arthur
:55:57. > :56:03.was talking about there? Whether there is an after life or not is a
:56:03. > :56:08.separate debate. I disagree with the previous guest. A lot of
:56:08. > :56:12.studies show religious people are happy and content and it does give
:56:12. > :56:16.you hope. It is an important quality in this Worle -- world. It
:56:16. > :56:21.is why people turn up at churches after a tragedy happens
:56:21. > :56:25.It is about hope and it is about peace. I think I would love to go
:56:25. > :56:30.to - well maybe not today, but tomorrow. I am looking forward to
:56:30. > :56:36.heaven. I think it would be wonderful. If it wasn't for the
:56:36. > :56:44.Lord Jesus, I wouldn't be there. The worst song with the best tune
:56:44. > :56:50.is I'm Going To Do It My Way. It is wrong because we should be doing it
:56:50. > :56:55.God's way. Dominic "we should focus on
:56:55. > :57:00.morality.". Another viewer says, "If you live your life trying to be
:57:00. > :57:05.a better person there is nothing to fear in an after life if it
:57:05. > :57:15.exists.". I hope you enjoy Hallowe'en if you celebrate.
:57:15. > :57:16.
:57:16. > :57:22.Your text and online votes are in. Mehdi, you said you didn't expect
:57:22. > :57:25.to to be... Shock horror, I am surprised by this.
:57:25. > :57:31.Jonathan, your view on the people that people are opposed to the idea
:57:31. > :57:34.of giving the votes to prisoners? think it is a mistaken view in the
:57:34. > :57:39.sense that prison is there to punish and they are punished enough
:57:39. > :57:42.by losing a liberty, but it should be there to reintegrate and
:57:43. > :57:49.rehabilitate and get people to take an interest in what is going to
:57:49. > :57:53.happen in society when they enter into it.
:57:53. > :58:00.Alison Alison? It is right that prisoners should not have the vote
:58:00. > :58:05.and I don't want it to be changed. If you forfeit your freedom by
:58:05. > :58:12.going inside, the vote going until you are out again.
:58:12. > :58:18.What about the idea that it should be made cool to vote? It is gross.
:58:18. > :58:23.Didn't it come from the US prison system because your belts were
:58:23. > :58:30.taken away and your trousers hung down? I would love young people to
:58:30. > :58:33.take voting seriously. Voting is crucial. It has been hard won in
:58:33. > :58:39.the past and we need to look after it.. Thank you to everyone who has
:58:39. > :58:44.taken part, to Mehdi Hasan, Alison Ruoff and David Blunkett who was
:58:44. > :58:47.with us earlier. Don't text or call the phonelines anymore as they are