:00:43. > :00:46.Good morning and welcome. It strikes me, not for the first time,
:00:46. > :00:51.that we are an inconsistent country. Everyone says they despise
:00:51. > :00:54.politicians and they would like to do horrible things to them. Then
:00:55. > :00:57.one politician, the Tory MP Nadine Dorries, goes off to Australia to
:00:57. > :00:59.get herself covered in maggots and cockroaches, eats disgusting bits
:01:00. > :01:04.of floppy animals and generally makes an embarrassing spectacle of
:01:04. > :01:10.herself, and everyone pretends to be outraged. Come on! What more
:01:10. > :01:12.could any politician do to publicly humiliate themselves? Well, apart,
:01:12. > :01:22.I suppose, from standing as a police commissioner. And that's
:01:22. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:29.enough Nadine. Unless she features in the paper review. That's up to
:01:29. > :01:31.our trio of wise owls this morning - the former head of the Army, Sir
:01:31. > :01:34.Mike Jackson, the Times sketch writer, Anne Treneman, and the
:01:34. > :01:36.music promoter and entrepreneur, Harvey Goldsmith. MPs return to
:01:36. > :01:40.Westminster tomorrow to a great bank of storm clouds, building up
:01:40. > :01:43.at home and abroad. Here, the number claiming benefits is up.
:01:43. > :01:46.Inflation's over target and the growth forecasts have again been
:01:46. > :01:51.downgraded with grim warnings of a possible triple dip recession. The
:01:51. > :01:54.Business Secretary, Vince Cable, is here. His ally, Lord Oakeshott says
:01:54. > :01:59.Liberal Democrat ratings are flat on the floor. So, what will lift
:01:59. > :02:03.them - the mansion tax? Finding a way to make Starbucks, Google and
:02:03. > :02:06.Amazon pay their fair whack of tax? We'll find out. Abroad, there's
:02:06. > :02:11.another Euro summit this week, as a poll today shows most British
:02:11. > :02:14.people would now vote to leave the EU. The Tory rebel, David Davis, is
:02:14. > :02:20.here with some advice for David Cameron, as he struggles to freeze
:02:20. > :02:23.the EU budget and cope with rising euroscepticism. Labour also got a
:02:23. > :02:25.new tone on Europe, though I'll be asking the Shadow Foreign Secretary,
:02:25. > :02:35.Douglas Alexander, too for his take on the latest murderous exchanges
:02:35. > :02:42.between Israel and Hamas, as the whole region again seems to shake.
:02:42. > :02:45.That is plenty of storm clouds for one morning, I reckon. And we do
:02:45. > :02:49.have a quite extraordinary and much happier tale from the London jazz
:02:49. > :02:52.festival of a man in his 70s, who has arrived to play a string of
:02:52. > :02:58.major sold out concerts - having spent almost all the past 40 years
:02:58. > :03:08.in total obscurity. All will be explained when I talk to Sixto
:03:08. > :03:13.
:03:13. > :03:23.Rodriguez, and we hear a little of Lots to chew through, lots to
:03:23. > :03:24.
:03:24. > :03:26.listen to, but first the news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. The
:03:26. > :03:28.World Health Organisation says hospitals in Gaza are now
:03:28. > :03:31.overwhelmed with casualties and running short of medical supplies,
:03:31. > :03:33.as Israel's bombardment of Gaza continues into a fifth day. There
:03:33. > :03:35.have been repeated air strikes and shelling from Israeli warships,
:03:35. > :03:38.producing multiple explosions across Gaza City. Health officials
:03:38. > :03:48.say 48 Palestinians and three Israelis have been killed since
:03:48. > :03:49.
:03:49. > :03:56.Wednesday. It may be dark and seemingly quiet in Gaza but then
:03:56. > :04:02.comes this. Another night after another day in a crisis which is
:04:02. > :04:06.taking its toll. What we adhering from our staff on the ground at the
:04:06. > :04:11.moment is that their own children are suffering extreme levels of
:04:11. > :04:17.stress and distress. It is only a tiny percentage of what children in
:04:17. > :04:22.the entire region of going through at the moment. Yesterday, the
:04:22. > :04:27.Israeli military released a video on the strike at the headquarters
:04:27. > :04:33.of the Hamas minister in Gaza. One of 200 attacks as Palestinian
:04:33. > :04:43.fighters sent at least 100 rockets in the opposite direction. One
:04:43. > :04:46.reached Tel-Aviv but was intercepted. Before the overnight
:04:46. > :04:50.shelling, the Egyptian President said intensive efforts were being
:04:50. > :04:58.made with both sides and there were signs of a possible ceasefire soon.
:04:58. > :05:02.He added there were no guarantees. Close to the border with Gaza,
:05:02. > :05:07.Israeli troops and armoured vehicles are a massing. They were
:05:07. > :05:11.not be drawn on the suggestion of a ground invasion. For now, the
:05:11. > :05:18.assault is by air and by sea. Our correspondent joins us now live
:05:18. > :05:23.from Gaza. What more can you tell us about what is happening now?
:05:23. > :05:28.has been an eventful morning. There were not many Palestinian rockets
:05:28. > :05:36.going out last night. Several militants have been firing rockets
:05:36. > :05:42.towards Israel this morning. It was a busy and noisy night overnight. A
:05:42. > :05:47.lot of firing by gunboats at targets in Gaza City and around the
:05:47. > :05:51.Palestinians strip. They say all these were legitimate targets.
:05:51. > :05:58.Whether or not that his justification for hitting the two
:05:58. > :06:04.media buildings is not yet clear. Two media buildings including
:06:04. > :06:08.several Western based organisations were hit. There has been a protest
:06:08. > :06:13.by the Foreign Press Association against the targeting of what are
:06:13. > :06:20.clearly media buildings. It has been an eventful night and a fairly
:06:20. > :06:24.busy morning. There is still talk of a ceasefire. Also talk from the
:06:24. > :06:32.Egyptian leadership and also talk of a ground offensive. What cherry
:06:32. > :06:37.Heering? We do not know. -- what are you hearing? Lots of damage has
:06:37. > :06:40.been done to the infrastructure of Hamas and other organisations.
:06:41. > :06:46.Everyone is asking whether the attempts to reach a ceasefire in
:06:46. > :06:55.Cairo frail, will the Israelis go on to phase two and launch a ground
:06:55. > :07:00.invasion? -- frail. Three Israelis have also been killed. The big fear
:07:00. > :07:06.is, if there were to be a land invasion - the ground operation -
:07:06. > :07:08.and there would be more civilian casualties. Thank you very much.
:07:08. > :07:11.Distraught families and angry demonstrators have prevented
:07:11. > :07:15.members of the Egyptian government from visiting the site where 50
:07:15. > :07:18.children were killed in an accident on a railway line yesterday. The
:07:18. > :07:22.children died when their nursery school bus was hit by a train at a
:07:23. > :07:25.level-crossing near Manfaloot, south of Cairo. The man in charge
:07:26. > :07:33.of the barriers has been arrested following reports he left them open
:07:33. > :07:36.and was asleep. The Transport Minister has also resigned. Here,
:07:36. > :07:39.MPs are to get another chance to decide whether prisoners should be
:07:39. > :07:42.allowed to vote. They will discuss the issue on Thursday - a day
:07:42. > :07:45.before the Government has to decide whether to comply with a ruling
:07:45. > :07:49.from the European Court of Human Rights, which says the current
:07:49. > :07:52.blanket ban is unlawful. The British car maker, Jaguar Land
:07:52. > :07:56.Rover, has been given the go-ahead to open its first manufacturing
:07:56. > :08:01.site in China. The project, which is based north of Shanghai, will be
:08:01. > :08:03.in partnership with Chinese car maker Chery Automobile. The two
:08:03. > :08:09.companies will assemble models tailored specifically for the
:08:09. > :08:19.Chinese market. That's all from me for now. I'll be back with the
:08:19. > :08:20.
:08:20. > :08:25.headlines just before 10am. Back to you. Thank you, Naga. I wonder what
:08:25. > :08:35.a specifically Chinese land Rover looks like. Now for the paper
:08:35. > :08:41.
:08:41. > :08:48.The Prime Minister has a new fixer. He did the job for Boris Johnson.
:08:48. > :08:56.The Observer has Sarah Teather, the diminutive but outspoken former
:08:56. > :09:01.Liberal Democrat minister, saying the benefit cap is immoral and
:09:01. > :09:06.divisive. In the Sunday Telegraph, it says public schools are being
:09:06. > :09:12.demonised and has an interview with Ed Miliband, who says Euro-sceptics
:09:12. > :09:15.are right sometimes. A bit of change of tone. An interesting
:09:15. > :09:20.story from Scotland on Sunday which says that Scottish universities
:09:20. > :09:24.will change the rules. If you come from a poor background, you do not
:09:24. > :09:30.necessarily have to get the grades you have been asked for to get a
:09:30. > :09:40.place at university. Like many papers, the Independent on Sunday
:09:40. > :09:41.
:09:41. > :09:47.is talking about Gaza. And with me to review the papers are Mike
:09:47. > :09:51.Jackson, plus Anne Treneman and Harvey Goldsmith. A big week for
:09:51. > :10:01.Europe in Britain. They raise the poll same 56% of Britons would vote
:10:01. > :10:07.to quit the EU. -- there is a pull. I think if there were a referendum,
:10:07. > :10:15.BPCC has also been in the news, if you had a vote, the turnout would
:10:15. > :10:19.be over 90%. If you give people something to vote on they're
:10:19. > :10:26.interested in and have a feeling about... One thing I find
:10:26. > :10:30.interesting about this is, something like 40% of Lib Dems -
:10:30. > :10:35.the most pro-European party - even they would vote to go out. This
:10:35. > :10:41.issue seems to be all over the place. There seems to be a real gap
:10:41. > :10:46.opening up between the political elite and the rest of the country.
:10:46. > :10:52.I think so. I also think one of the big issues we have got is that
:10:52. > :10:57.explanation is not given to most people. There is too much confusion
:10:57. > :11:01.about. If you do not really understand the truth about the
:11:01. > :11:05.European Community and, particularly, about the PCC,
:11:05. > :11:11.exactly what the rollers and what they are there to do and who you
:11:11. > :11:18.are voting for, you are going to expect a low turnout. Another huge
:11:18. > :11:27.story today. It is the appalling 4th day of the exchange of rocket
:11:27. > :11:33.fire and bombs and so on between Gaza and Israel. Yes. I was struck
:11:33. > :11:38.by the cartoon in the Independent, whereby we have an Israeli soldier,
:11:38. > :11:45.a Palestinian guerrilla, if I am using the right terminology. He
:11:45. > :11:51.started it, no he did not, you started it. A sad woman and a child
:11:51. > :11:55.saying, I do not think they will ever stop. Rather depressing but I
:11:55. > :12:02.think a rather accurate pictorial representation of what I hope is
:12:02. > :12:06.not yet another major brand of hostility. From the military
:12:06. > :12:12.perspective, what people have to remember, is how small is where
:12:12. > :12:18.this and how open to rocket attacks on all sides, I guess. Indeed. What
:12:18. > :12:24.has happened in recent years is that the ability of the
:12:24. > :12:31.Palestinians to reach deeper into Israel with it longer-range
:12:31. > :12:36.missiles, some appear to be supplied by Iran, has grown.
:12:36. > :12:43.Israeli vulnerability is clearly heightened their bite. I always
:12:43. > :12:50.remember an Israeli saying to me, we can only afford to lose once.
:12:50. > :12:55.Yes. But it looks like it will go on and arm. I fear. There were
:12:55. > :13:00.encouraging comments on the news that there was an Egyptian
:13:00. > :13:08.initiative to a tent some sort of ceasefire. There are continuing
:13:09. > :13:14.talks that they want all the time between the two sides. -- that go
:13:14. > :13:20.on. Then rocket start to fall. Something like 5000 rockets shot
:13:20. > :13:29.into Israel since January. If they were fired into England from France
:13:30. > :13:36.you would get fed up with it after a while. There are continuing talks
:13:36. > :13:41.that go on. Like everything, the vast majority of the population on
:13:41. > :13:48.both sides do not want this - they want peace. A group of people do
:13:48. > :13:55.not want to end it. Part of the problem will be Syria. First, let's
:13:55. > :14:01.go back to another British story. You have chosen the BBC. Lot of
:14:01. > :14:07.coverage over the position of the chairman. I think the Sunday Times
:14:07. > :14:12.has been having a field day about getting its own back on the BBC.
:14:12. > :14:17.Today there is a large spread about saying that Lord Patten has paid
:14:17. > :14:24.off the executive that have been let go, fired or was signed, with
:14:24. > :14:29.too much money. Reading the story, the underlying issue is there seems
:14:29. > :14:38.to be a blurred role about the difference between what is the role
:14:38. > :14:42.of the trust and what is the role of the executive board. The Times
:14:42. > :14:49.on the one hand is blaming the Trust for not taking control of it.
:14:49. > :14:52.One would be seen that is the role of the executive board. In terms of
:14:52. > :14:58.what the power of the trustees and who is on it, which is something
:14:59. > :15:03.that always bothers me, to some extent, with all of these large
:15:03. > :15:08.boards, somehow government always hires and the good, the great and
:15:08. > :15:14.the useless. They do not find the experts who know anything about the
:15:14. > :15:19.job in hand. We have that in politics are actually. Experts are
:15:20. > :15:25.too busy getting on with what they are expert at and earning money.
:15:25. > :15:31.is saying that Lord Patten is paying off the various executives
:15:32. > :15:37.with too much money. That does not seem to be right. It is basically
:15:37. > :15:45.saying that trust has overall responsibility. I am not sure how
:15:45. > :15:55.that works. Let's go on to the issue of, should prisoners be
:15:55. > :15:57.
:15:57. > :16:04.allowed to vote in elections? It Yes, basically we are heading for a
:16:04. > :16:08.cataclysmic head with the European Court of Human Rights on this.
:16:08. > :16:17.David Cameron said it makes him sick, the idea of a prisoner of
:16:17. > :16:24.voting. They have so there must be some sort of human right on this
:16:24. > :16:30.level. Apparently there is a deadline. To me, the words deadline
:16:31. > :16:34.and European Court of Human Rights, they keep moving those deadlines,
:16:34. > :16:39.anyway that will be another big issue. And you have a solution to
:16:39. > :16:44.this conundrum? I think they should only be allowed to vote in Police
:16:44. > :16:53.Commissioner elections. There by getting the vote sport in that and
:16:53. > :16:57.having expertise! They know what they are voting on. That is my
:16:57. > :17:02.solution to the whole problem. talk about what is in the papers,
:17:02. > :17:07.but what is not in the papers is also quite interesting sometimes.
:17:07. > :17:13.Remarkably little coverage of Syria. It shows how we can handle one
:17:13. > :17:18.crisis at a time, but not so real. Yes, in the car this morning I was
:17:19. > :17:23.looking for something on Syria and is not really there. There are some
:17:23. > :17:31.interesting commentary pieces as to how the so-called Arab Spring is
:17:31. > :17:36.playing into this new Middle East kaleidoscope and the pattern of
:17:36. > :17:42.what will emerge. Syria is in a much was place that Libya was when
:17:42. > :17:47.the decision was taken last year so that in itself says something. We
:17:47. > :17:55.now have an increasing number of refugees in increasingly wretched
:17:55. > :17:59.circumstances. A you saw perhaps your successors comments about the
:18:00. > :18:08.possibility of us becoming involved in policing the border, creating
:18:08. > :18:11.safe havens - what do you make of that? For it is the job of the
:18:11. > :18:15.chief of defence staff to implement whatever direction he is given by
:18:15. > :18:20.the duly elected government. One would be surprised if he hadn't
:18:20. > :18:24.been thinking along those lines. The decision rests properly with
:18:25. > :18:32.the government, and not just this government, it would have to be
:18:32. > :18:40.many others. I'm afraid I predict a worsening of the humanitarian
:18:40. > :18:43.situation, let alone the violence in Syria. We may get to the
:18:43. > :18:49.something must be done point. the West armed the rebels, what is
:18:49. > :18:55.the effect of that? It is clearly taking sides, but we have done that
:18:55. > :19:02.before. Largely them is a parallel with Libya, when we assisted the
:19:02. > :19:09.so-called rebels. There are choices, arming and training is one for
:19:09. > :19:14.example. Imposing a no-fly zone is another possibility, rather at all
:19:14. > :19:17.order. It would be much more difficult than Libya, but these
:19:17. > :19:22.would be military choices which will be put in front of the
:19:22. > :19:26.political decision-makers. probably some time over this winter,
:19:26. > :19:31.if you are right about the humanitarian situation. If I would
:19:31. > :19:37.love to be proved wrong. People think of it as a hot and Sunday
:19:37. > :19:42.place, in the winter it is no on the high ground, pretty miserable.
:19:42. > :19:47.Isn't it the case that the UN and the other nations that can help
:19:47. > :19:52.still don't know which of the rebel groups to help with. Although
:19:52. > :19:57.nothing is ever talked about in Libya, my understanding is that in
:19:57. > :20:02.Libya it is just as bad now as it was during the war, where the rebel
:20:02. > :20:06.factions themselves are fighting each other. That is the concern in
:20:06. > :20:14.Syria - there are so many different factions, collectively called the
:20:14. > :20:20.rebels. The question of what if we hadn't, or what would have happened
:20:20. > :20:25.had we not is impossible to answer. For it is the same with Iraq.
:20:25. > :20:30.is clear in the now several interventions we have been involved
:20:30. > :20:37.with since the end of the Cold War is that the military side is
:20:37. > :20:43.relatively quick. Then you have a vacuum, a political vacuum, and we
:20:43. > :20:48.all know our physics, forces fill the vacuum and it is messy. It will
:20:49. > :20:58.never be anything else, certainly for a while. Let's turn to another
:20:59. > :20:59.
:20:59. > :21:03.domestic story, simply called gulp in the Independent on Sunday.
:21:04. > :21:13.basically about the effect of Twitter, saying that you should
:21:14. > :21:23.
:21:23. > :21:30.think before you tweet. It says about Sally Bercow, who has a habit
:21:30. > :21:35.of making the headlines every time she wakes up. But also Twitter
:21:35. > :21:42.could be liable to be sued as the publisher of some comments. It says
:21:42. > :21:46.in the body of the story - has it fundamentally changed the law of
:21:46. > :21:56.libel for users and mainstream media? It says the bureau of
:21:56. > :22:00.
:22:00. > :22:07.investigative journalism, if they hadn't tweeted, Lord McAlpine would
:22:07. > :22:12.not have come out. This is going to completely change the atmosphere on
:22:12. > :22:17.Twitter, isn't it? It will have a massive potential effect. I like
:22:17. > :22:23.Twitter but I do Haverstock Gatt mechanism, and I think that is one
:22:23. > :22:28.of the problems with Twitter, that the passing bandwagon is very hard
:22:28. > :22:35.not to jump on to for some people. Basically it is about self-control,
:22:35. > :22:40.and knowing facts before you accuse people. That is an important
:22:40. > :22:46.political story. It might be said for most important political story
:22:46. > :22:53.at the moment is getting the big companies to pay tax. Starbucks,
:22:53. > :22:56.Google, Amazon, and more companies being named today by different
:22:56. > :23:06.newspapers. A long list of companies not paying their fair
:23:06. > :23:07.
:23:07. > :23:14.share. The Sunday Mirror headline is these key board members of
:23:14. > :23:20.Starbucks taking away fortunes, and in the UK declaring �31 million
:23:20. > :23:28.losses. I have caught up my loyalty card. I went every day, and I
:23:28. > :23:33.watched that guy, Troy, before the committee and it was gobbledegook.
:23:33. > :23:41.They really made it - I will pay everything in Switzerland, I don't
:23:41. > :23:47.know. It is an elaborate way, but it isn't just Starbucks and it
:23:47. > :23:52.seems like Google and Amazon and Facebook and so on have become very
:23:52. > :23:56.adept in their structure that they don't want to pay tax anywhere, and
:23:56. > :24:01.equally they don't seem to have much of the social responsibility
:24:01. > :24:06.programme, and they may say we give so much of this and the other. It
:24:06. > :24:12.is an issue. Very briefly, Afghanistan, it is always in the
:24:12. > :24:17.papers. We had Paddy Ashdown saying a couple of days ago it is time to
:24:17. > :24:22.come out. It is not working, it is not worth another life. I am not
:24:22. > :24:30.entirely with him. I read his article very carefully and we know
:24:30. > :24:37.each other quite well. There is an article over the concerns of so-
:24:37. > :24:44.called green on blue, that is killings of coalition soldiers die
:24:44. > :24:48.either Afghan soldiers or mainly policeman, which is great concern
:24:48. > :24:54.also when you think about it it is quite a clever tactic by they
:24:54. > :25:00.position. It puts the wind up people. Yes, but that is not a
:25:01. > :25:06.reason to pursue, to clearly laid down a timetable on strategy. Going
:25:06. > :25:11.now is not going to help anybody. Thank you very much for that. To
:25:11. > :25:17.the weather forecast. It has been dismal in the south, but still
:25:17. > :25:21.quite mild. What is the prospect for the rest of the UK?
:25:21. > :25:26.The weather is in no mood to change once again. The sunshine is back
:25:26. > :25:28.but it is cold. There was a widespread frost to start the day,
:25:28. > :25:33.widespread frost to start the day, but there is a lot of sunshine
:25:33. > :25:37.around. It will not do much for the temperature today. We are going
:25:37. > :25:42.between weather systems, just one glance to the Atlantic shows a lot
:25:42. > :25:48.of cloud coming our way and that will turn things wetter tonight and
:25:48. > :25:53.into tomorrow. It is still wintry over the hills and Scotland and the
:25:53. > :25:56.cloud increases over western areas in the afternoon. The sum turning
:25:56. > :26:02.hazy across Wales and western England, still bright blue skies
:26:02. > :26:09.across the eastern England. The temperatures are no big change from
:26:09. > :26:15.yesterday, when we got as high as 15 degrees in the south-east. Still
:26:15. > :26:20.some showers in north-west Scotland, but it does turn very wet through
:26:20. > :26:25.tonight and into tomorrow morning. Tomorrow a very different day -
:26:25. > :26:29.more cloud around and stronger wind, setting us thought for a very wet
:26:29. > :26:34.week to come. We will see very windy weather as well, but it will
:26:34. > :26:38.be mild if you can cope with the wind and rain.
:26:38. > :26:42.David Cameron goes to Rainey Brussels this week, where he will
:26:42. > :26:46.be fighting against a move to increase Britain's annual
:26:47. > :26:51.contribution to the EU. He once the budget frozen or reduced but this
:26:51. > :26:57.will put him on a collision course with his fellow European leaders.
:26:57. > :27:03.Here the mood seems ever more Euro- sceptic. David Cameron's at one
:27:03. > :27:08.time rival David Davis will this week suggest the way forward for
:27:08. > :27:13.the party and he is with me now. Good morning. Let's start with the
:27:13. > :27:18.events of the coming week. David Cameron has been sent to negotiate
:27:18. > :27:23.with a pretty firm message from the House of Commons that he has to
:27:23. > :27:28.come back with a freeze preferably come back with a freeze preferably
:27:28. > :27:33.in real terms. There is very little chance of this, isn't there? Yes,
:27:33. > :27:38.it is pretty tough. His final recourse is a pretty weak veto, and
:27:38. > :27:42.if that doesn't work then you are negotiating leverage is cut to
:27:42. > :27:50.smithereens. He has got pretty much the whole institutional structure
:27:50. > :27:54.against him. They all want to have at least an inflation level budget.
:27:55. > :28:04.That is ridiculous - when you look at Greece and Portugal, for them to
:28:04. > :28:08.be protected really smacks of an international gravy train. Another
:28:08. > :28:12.disappointment, bad headlines here, a lot of muttering about having a
:28:12. > :28:18.referendum some time which almost nobody will believe because it is
:28:18. > :28:23.said so often. Nobody will believe it. Every single party has not
:28:23. > :28:26.delivered on a referendum. They may have their reasons, but the public
:28:26. > :28:32.will feel like two and will not believe any more promises on a
:28:32. > :28:38.referendum. What is your recommendation, doctor? One more
:28:38. > :28:46.piece of analysis - David and the rest of the Tories have quite
:28:46. > :28:51.understandably viewed this as very dangerous so they balked at it and
:28:51. > :28:57.the truth is they no longer can. With the eurozone crisis, the
:28:57. > :29:02.answer to that - more federalism - they can't walk away any more. That
:29:02. > :29:07.is the first point, that you can't avoid this problem. There is going
:29:07. > :29:12.to be a referendum, whoever is in power over the next five years,
:29:12. > :29:15.because the public will demand that. How can we turn this to our
:29:15. > :29:24.advantage? We have got to some have dramatically changed our
:29:24. > :29:28.relationship with Europe. So you need a discussion, an agreement,
:29:28. > :29:33.presumably by the government, on the list of powers that need to be
:29:33. > :29:37.repatriated. A shopping list. yes, you need that pretty much in
:29:37. > :29:42.the next 12 months so we know what we're doing. There was a
:29:42. > :29:47.negotiating window here now because they want things as well. You want
:29:47. > :29:53.David Cameron to initiate that, say this is our national menu, and then
:29:53. > :30:01.what? Then I want him to put that to the British people, to say here
:30:01. > :30:06.is a mandate referendum. Do you approve of it? I suspect we would
:30:06. > :30:12.get 70% support for the sorts of things most people want. We don't
:30:12. > :30:18.want Europe deciding our laws. you would like this dumb when? M
:30:18. > :30:22.very soon, in the next year, before the next European election.
:30:23. > :30:28.recent is twofold. Firstly it is important for the election, but
:30:28. > :30:33.secondly it gives the government a big negotiating lever. The only
:30:33. > :30:39.time in the last 20 years when the European Union has conceded to the
:30:39. > :30:45.nation's stance, giving back powers or conceding components of treaties,
:30:45. > :30:49.is when it has been a referendum. The French have done it with
:30:49. > :30:54.neutrality, forcing the change in the treaty effectively. The people
:30:54. > :31:00.say again and again, the troubled is it is not practical politics. We
:31:00. > :31:04.go looking for that radical shift, effectively back to the old Common
:31:04. > :31:14.Market sort of relationship. It is just not practical, we will be
:31:14. > :31:19.
:31:19. > :31:25.I am not the only person to be saying something like this. Others
:31:25. > :31:33.argue the same sorts of thing. We know what the negotiation is like.
:31:33. > :31:38.It is tough. After the negotiation, you have this referendum. You put
:31:38. > :31:43.to people two perfectly decent options. You say this is what
:31:43. > :31:49.you're going to have for the next decade or so and this is the other
:31:49. > :31:54.option - to leave. That is not frightening. To scupper UKIP, but
:31:54. > :31:59.Prime Minister must commit to a specific date to do this in a
:31:59. > :32:05.Mashable time and not just talk about it. He needs to put it in law
:32:05. > :32:13.and says -- and say, when we put it in law we will have the outcome for
:32:13. > :32:18.the people. Is there a groundswell behind this idea? There by
:32:18. > :32:24.youngsters who have begun to pick up on a mandate referendum and the
:32:24. > :32:29.double referendum idea. It is beginning to get purchase. Now is
:32:29. > :32:34.the time. It is an historic opportunity and we should take it.
:32:34. > :32:38.Now, here is a story. It's the start of the 70s and a young singer
:32:38. > :32:41.from Detroit is being hailed as the new Bob Dylan. He records two LPs -
:32:41. > :32:49.great reviews but don't really sell - so the record label drops him. He
:32:49. > :32:52.goes back to life as a jobbing builder and demolition worker.
:32:52. > :32:55.However, completely unknown to him, on the other side of the world, in
:32:55. > :32:58.South Africa, his music has become fantastically popular. He is up
:32:58. > :33:02.there with the Beatles. His South African fans think he's dead. But,
:33:02. > :33:05.25 years on, thanks to the new magic of the internet, one of them
:33:05. > :33:11.tracks him down. Still quietly working on broken down houses in
:33:11. > :33:14.Detroit. Rodriguez, who has never played to more than a handful of
:33:14. > :33:24.people in his life, goes to Cape Town, is given a hero's welcome and
:33:24. > :33:36.
:33:36. > :33:40.Finally, the story is made into a film - Searching for Sugar Man. The
:33:40. > :33:47.movie wins a string of awards and Rodriguez is not just feted in
:33:48. > :33:54.South Africa. Music buffs worldwide learn of this amazing tale. Welcome.
:33:54. > :33:59.I am happy to be here. You did these wonderful albums and they are
:33:59. > :34:06.fantastic. It does not work for the obscure reasons of the music
:34:06. > :34:10.industry and you go back to being a labourer. I go back to demolition,
:34:10. > :34:14.construction and renovation of homes and buildings. Do you ever
:34:14. > :34:22.have songs going through your head, thinking, if my life had gone
:34:22. > :34:30.another way, I might have been making albums? Music is always in
:34:30. > :34:40.my head. You worked away and had no idea that, in South Africa, you
:34:40. > :34:41.
:34:41. > :34:47.were a rock god. I learned about it in 1996 when it was explained to me
:34:47. > :34:55.there was this fan-base of Afrikaans. In 1998, I toured and it
:34:55. > :35:01.was true. We were playing to 5000 cities. From nothing to 5000 cities
:35:01. > :35:08.it is quite a jump. You're playing small clubs originate. You're
:35:08. > :35:15.working as a labourer but you're interested in politics as well. --
:35:15. > :35:21.small clubs originally. Detroit has more than halved in population
:35:21. > :35:29.since the great days of the car industry. There are lots of
:35:29. > :35:35.challenges in an urban setting. I have seen the Forties to the now. I
:35:35. > :35:42.remember that City when they had 2.5 million people and out that are
:35:42. > :35:49.about 100,000. It is quite a difference. -- and now there are
:35:49. > :35:54.about 100,000. You get on a plane and suddenly you are playing in
:35:54. > :36:03.front of huge stadiums. Way you can send you would not be able to do
:36:03. > :36:11.it? My stuff is Major's and miners and easy lyrics. I would not have
:36:11. > :36:18.trouble with that. I do it at times. It must be strange seeing this vast
:36:18. > :36:21.crowd. It was epic. South Africa is a beautiful country - gorgeous
:36:21. > :36:27.people. Giving you have been selling huge numbers of records are
:36:27. > :36:34.known for this time, are you wealthy? Did you never quite get
:36:34. > :36:39.your hands on the money? I am a musician and we create revenue that
:36:39. > :36:46.night. We have awards and long-term things as well. I move on. The best
:36:46. > :36:51.way to go it is forward. To talking about going forward, you arrived in
:36:51. > :36:55.London to play a concert which instantly sold out. Another one was
:36:55. > :37:04.announced and instantly sold out. Four concert you are doing now and
:37:04. > :37:09.all sold out. -- concerts. London is a cultural centre. They come out
:37:09. > :37:17.and see what is happening. people who do not know your music,
:37:17. > :37:25.how would you describe it? It is singer-songwriter and has late
:37:25. > :37:28.60s/early 70s tone to it, doesn't it? Today's music is a lot of vocal
:37:28. > :37:36.distortion and instrument distortion. I own vocal against
:37:36. > :37:43.guitar and that is my style. I used musicians. We recorded hit in 1971
:37:43. > :37:48.in Lansdowne Road. -- a week recorded here. We will hear some of
:37:48. > :37:52.the music towards the end of the programme. Thank you for the
:37:52. > :37:57.opportunity for the interview. out of Israel overnight remains
:37:57. > :37:59.grim. More shelling and rocket attacks on Gaza have produced
:37:59. > :38:03.further civilian casualties, who is retaliating against whom recedes as
:38:03. > :38:06.the violence escalates. And over another border in Syria, Britain
:38:06. > :38:16.edges nearer to the French position of recognising the opposition there
:38:16. > :38:20.
:38:21. > :38:26.as the legitimate government - a I am joined by Douglas Alexander.
:38:26. > :38:32.In a sense, this is Groundhog Day. More rockets and mortar attacks and
:38:32. > :38:38.more counter-attacks and so on. Is this particular around significant?
:38:38. > :38:43.Is it worth than others? The scale of human suffering is significant.
:38:43. > :38:48.The Middle East is more fragile and febrile than at any point in the
:38:48. > :38:52.last 50 years. We have been clear there needs to be a sensation to
:38:52. > :38:59.violence. We have urged the Secretary to the United Nations to
:38:59. > :39:04.travel to the region. We have seen this so many times in the past.
:39:04. > :39:10.Tony Blair was the special envoy for a long time and seemed to be
:39:10. > :39:13.banging his head on a series of walls. There is no military
:39:13. > :39:19.solution. There needs to be a willingness for the violence to end
:39:19. > :39:23.and the talking to begin. In that sense, Tony has done important work
:39:23. > :39:31.in recent years. Over the last 40 years, of the real breakthroughs
:39:31. > :39:37.have come when the parties and sows went to see a two state solution. -
:39:37. > :39:42.- at the parties themselves. The talk about a piece process. There
:39:42. > :39:49.has not been one of those in years of. That is why the latest round of
:39:49. > :39:54.violence does not offer a way forward. You add into this Syria
:39:54. > :39:59.and the hugely and stable position. We seem to be edging towards
:39:59. > :40:05.recognising the opposition as the formal government of Syria. Is
:40:05. > :40:11.there a danger that, inside the opposition, there are extreme
:40:11. > :40:16.elements and we maybe legitimising them and arming them as well?
:40:16. > :40:21.of the difficulties in Syria is that over 19 months we have not
:40:21. > :40:26.seen the emergence of legitimate leadership. We have not seen it in
:40:26. > :40:30.Syria. It is right the British government recognises the Syrian
:40:30. > :40:39.national coalition as the legitimate voice of the people. It
:40:39. > :40:47.is the right response to are the people -- their needs to be a
:40:47. > :40:53.credible plan. We should support unity. Including lots of Christians.
:40:53. > :40:58.That is why the need unity among the opposition but not arming the
:40:58. > :41:03.opposition. -- we need. We need to see the emergence of an inclusive
:41:03. > :41:08.and credible plan for transition. Recognition is an important step in
:41:09. > :41:16.the right direction. What happens if Israel does go for a land
:41:16. > :41:21.invasion of Gaza? I have caught for an end to the violence. A ground
:41:21. > :41:28.invasion would give Hamas of what it is wanting. We will see more
:41:28. > :41:35.loss of lies. I was the first British minister into Gaza. -- loss
:41:35. > :41:39.of lives. 100 Palestinians were being killed for every Israeli
:41:39. > :41:44.killed. It simply does not make sense were there to be an
:41:44. > :41:51.escalation of the violence were we need it to end and be talking to
:41:51. > :41:55.begin. -- for bed to be. A change in tone from Ed Miliband in the
:41:55. > :41:59.Sunday Telegraph. He says the Euro- sceptics were right about a few
:41:59. > :42:03.things. I wonder if this is the moment for people like yourself in
:42:03. > :42:09.the Labour Party to formally apologise for all those years in
:42:09. > :42:16.which she portrayed the Euro- sceptics as kind of dandruff slept
:42:16. > :42:23.unit -- lunatics. The truth is we are proud of Britain's role in
:42:23. > :42:29.Europe over recent decades. The Continent was divided by World War
:42:29. > :42:38.twice been the 20th century. Change is coming to Europe. We will remain
:42:38. > :42:43.a pro-European, pro-reform party. We see the future for Britain as
:42:43. > :42:48.being reforming in Europe and not exiting from Europe. A growing
:42:48. > :42:53.number of Conservatives believe the latter is the way forward.
:42:53. > :42:55.argument by David Davis was that you are never going to get any
:42:55. > :43:00.movement on the fundamentals unless you really have the wind up
:43:00. > :43:07.Brussels because you have had a referendum or whatever. That is a
:43:07. > :43:12.fair point. I like him but he was talking nonsense. Nobody believes
:43:12. > :43:16.and narrow agenda of repatriation, rather than a broad process of
:43:17. > :43:20.reform, is going to be the way forward. The gap between what
:43:20. > :43:25.Conservative backbenchers were judged acceptable and what could be
:43:25. > :43:31.negotiated is unbridgeable. That is why David Cameron is in the bizarre
:43:31. > :43:37.position of arguing for an in-in referendum. He cannot say what
:43:38. > :43:42.happens when you shred allowances to Brussels and they say, no thanks.
:43:42. > :43:47.If you do not do something dramatic and radical like that, you are
:43:47. > :43:51.drawn again and again, as you have been in the past, to the Franco-
:43:51. > :43:55.German agenda and it is quite clear that because of the crisis, deeper
:43:55. > :43:59.integration, more money for the central budget is now seen as
:43:59. > :44:05.absolutely essential. If the alternative is not that kind of
:44:05. > :44:10.referendum, what is it? We voted two weeks ago for reform of the
:44:10. > :44:15.European budget. It is a losing argument and not a winning one. The
:44:15. > :44:20.measure of our commitment to Europe is ever larger budgets for Europe.
:44:20. > :44:26.Bobby should be arguing for add the European summit is fundamental
:44:26. > :44:33.reform within the European budget. -- what we should be arguing for
:44:33. > :44:42.within the European summit. There is a big agenda for reform and the
:44:42. > :44:44.Prime Minister does not seem to be making that case. Now, another
:44:44. > :44:47.politician watching European politics like a hawk is the
:44:47. > :44:50.Business Secretary. But Vince Cable has issues even closer to home -
:44:50. > :44:53.that rather grim warning from the Bank of England governor about the
:44:53. > :44:56.long and winding road to recovery - and more austerity, which helps
:44:56. > :45:01.explain why the coalition isn't hugely popular and his own party.
:45:01. > :45:11.The Liberal Democrats came third in this week's Corby by-election. --
:45:11. > :45:12.
:45:12. > :45:22.fourth. Mr Cable is talking tomorrow to the CBI about growth
:45:22. > :45:29.
:45:29. > :45:35.Know, I think is right the Prime Minister takes a hard line on the
:45:35. > :45:39.Budget. That is unacceptable to those in the government having to
:45:39. > :45:44.make the cuts that the European Union is not been properly
:45:44. > :45:48.controlled. It is right. I am going to Brussels tomorrow as it happens
:45:48. > :45:53.to argue the case for further advances in the single market,
:45:53. > :45:57.which produces jobs for many British people. We have to keep
:45:57. > :46:02.pushing for reform, it needs to reform, but we can do it from
:46:02. > :46:06.inside the system. You will be talking about the importance of
:46:06. > :46:10.science and engineering, supporting industry, and I want to come on to
:46:10. > :46:16.that, but first we have the small matter of the Autumn Statement and
:46:16. > :46:20.more austerity going to be required. The Conservatives are very clear
:46:20. > :46:25.that they want to freeze more of the welfare budget, but you have
:46:25. > :46:31.been - your party - have been trying on the other side to make
:46:31. > :46:36.sure the rich will be paying more as a kind of quid pro quo. How have
:46:36. > :46:40.you got on? They that is a good summary of where the negotiations
:46:40. > :46:50.are. There needs to be a sense of fairness and the better-off people
:46:50. > :46:55.
:46:55. > :47:00.in society have got to contribute The principle has ride at those
:47:00. > :47:05.people have got to pay more, and that includes companies. We have
:47:05. > :47:09.had this appalling story of abuse of company taxation, but on your
:47:09. > :47:13.general proposition there is no need to pull additional austerity
:47:13. > :47:18.on top of the programme we have already got. We have got to deficit
:47:19. > :47:24.reduction programme, we will stick to it. It has got to be supported,
:47:24. > :47:29.where their governor of the Bank of England comes in, and I will be
:47:29. > :47:35.talking about investing heavily in science and technology, having an
:47:35. > :47:41.Industrial Strategy, getting banks' lending. That is why we also have
:47:41. > :47:45.the new business bank. When it comes to taxation, there has been a
:47:45. > :47:49.serious row inside the coalition about what kind of tax it should be.
:47:49. > :47:55.George Osborne has ruled out mansion tucked publicly, which
:47:55. > :48:01.leaves the possibility of higher stamp duty or possibly higher
:48:01. > :48:06.council tax bands. Is that the area you would expect to see changed?
:48:06. > :48:11.know it is under discussion, and the devil is in the detail, but it
:48:11. > :48:17.is right that we do not tax the wealthy. It is the obvious place to
:48:17. > :48:24.go. Yes, added his further because property can't run-off to
:48:24. > :48:30.Liechtenstein. Speaking of running off to other tax jurisdictions,
:48:30. > :48:34.let's ask about this story this week - Starbucks, Google, Amazon -
:48:34. > :48:40.they have all been in the frame for not paying their fair share of tax.
:48:40. > :48:44.This is a fundamental issue of the rights of government versus
:48:44. > :48:48.international companies. Is there any way of forming some new
:48:48. > :48:53.international agreement whereby you can make these companies pay their
:48:53. > :48:57.fair share? It is certainly difficult because we need companies
:48:57. > :49:02.for coming from all over the world and we need investment. While they
:49:02. > :49:07.are here, if they make profits, they should pay tax. There is
:49:07. > :49:12.nothing more galling to medium sized companies when we find these
:49:12. > :49:16.people dodging it. Our own tax authorities have got to be tough on
:49:16. > :49:21.things like royalty payments, where a lot of the subterfuge takes place,
:49:21. > :49:24.but the big question is whether you can get wider global agreement. The
:49:24. > :49:30.Chancellor has been talking to the Germans about getting a common
:49:30. > :49:35.approach to tax havens. When you have those conversations, is are
:49:35. > :49:40.there any sense of urgency because it seems that a lot of people are
:49:40. > :49:45.making sacrifices, paying higher tax, a lot of small businesses,
:49:45. > :49:50.many of whom are on the edge of being put out of business by these
:49:50. > :49:56.large companies, and it seems grotesque. Yes, and it is
:49:56. > :50:00.unacceptable. It is also quite difficult to drill down to what the
:50:00. > :50:06.problems are. Starbucks claimed they are actually making losses in
:50:06. > :50:11.the UK. You would need some pretty intensive investigation by the
:50:11. > :50:16.Inland Revenue to find out exactly what is going on. What is going to
:50:16. > :50:21.happen? As I say, you have got to have a combination of action at an
:50:21. > :50:25.international level, which the Chancellor is pursuing with other
:50:25. > :50:30.countries, and we have got to be for our own capacity to crackdown
:50:30. > :50:35.on tax abuse here. You can understand the fury in Parliament
:50:35. > :50:39.about this? Absolutely. Many businesses are struggling and they
:50:39. > :50:44.are angry. Talking of both the economy more generally, it has been
:50:44. > :50:47.suggested there are a lot of British businesses which are so
:50:47. > :50:51.called zombie companies, in other words they are still there but they
:50:51. > :50:57.are not making any money and only holding on by the skin of their
:50:57. > :51:03.teeth because of very low interest rates. The minute the interest
:51:03. > :51:08.rates go up, they will start to collapse - is that a serious worry?
:51:08. > :51:13.Yes, some companies can't get access to credit. I think when we
:51:13. > :51:18.get a serious recovery going, once you get demand expanding in the
:51:18. > :51:22.economy, then companies will sell more, make more money, their
:51:22. > :51:28.businesses become viable, but I think the point you're making,
:51:28. > :51:34.which is when we get sustained recovery, and we are beginning to
:51:34. > :51:41.get some encouraging signs. many. The there are, notably on the
:51:41. > :51:45.employment front, and we can move towards normality. Let's address
:51:45. > :51:49.the economy in a straightforward way. We have what has been called
:51:50. > :51:56.the Long And winding Road, the possibility of a triple dip
:51:56. > :52:01.recession. Everything has changed, has it not? We will not get the old
:52:01. > :52:06.pattern, the old rhythm of a bit of austerity, everything gets better
:52:06. > :52:12.again, you have the election and you're thanked by the voters - that
:52:12. > :52:19.is not going to happen, is it? it isn't. This is not a temporary
:52:19. > :52:25.attack of flu. We have heard the economic equivalent of a heart
:52:25. > :52:29.attack, caused by the financial collapse of the system. It will be
:52:29. > :52:32.very difficult getting out of it but we have got to be solid and
:52:32. > :52:36.consistent in the way we deal with it, we have got to get the public
:52:36. > :52:44.finances under control, but we have also got to support expansion of
:52:44. > :52:49.the economy, short-term measures of maintaining demand, long-term
:52:49. > :52:54.things like apprenticeships. Your party, no party can honestly go to
:52:54. > :53:00.the electorate at the next election and save vote for us and everything
:53:00. > :53:03.will be fine, the pain is over. Absalom not under think everybody
:53:03. > :53:09.acknowledges that the need for restraint in public spending in
:53:09. > :53:13.terms of public sector pay, taxation, these will continue to be
:53:13. > :53:17.difficult for many years to come. I think the public will accept that
:53:17. > :53:23.if they can see we are pursuing a strategy to get out of this, and if
:53:23. > :53:29.they can see it is fair. The your former colleagues said in today's
:53:29. > :53:34.paper for instance that the cap on welfare payments is harsh and
:53:34. > :53:40.brutal and unfair. The what is immoral is demonising poor people.
:53:40. > :53:45.The reason why there is a cap on benefits is mainly because of the
:53:45. > :53:50.housing component. Housing benefit is escalating out of control,
:53:50. > :53:54.effectively a subsidy to landlords. What can you do? You could
:53:54. > :53:59.introduce rent control but that reduces supply creating more
:53:59. > :54:03.problems so we have got to cap the housing benefit while at the same
:54:03. > :54:08.time increasing the supply of affordable housing. Without that
:54:08. > :54:16.you will have very serious consequences, which Sarah has
:54:16. > :54:20.warned about. Your party has taken a very serious battering in Corby
:54:20. > :54:27.and other places. Lord Oakeshott said you have lost two fifths of
:54:27. > :54:31.the support you had at the general election. Is there any way of
:54:31. > :54:38.starting to turn that round, in terms of the party? People talk
:54:38. > :54:42.about the change of leader, from instance. People talk about you.
:54:42. > :54:49.Let's not go there. If you look at what happened on Thursday, we
:54:49. > :54:53.didn't do badly in the Corby by- election, we did much better in
:54:53. > :54:59.Manchester and we won a whole series of by-elections from Labour
:54:59. > :55:04.and from the Conservatives. The morale in the party is strong,
:55:04. > :55:07.resilient. We have been through difficult periods before. I am
:55:07. > :55:12.optimistic that it will stick with our agenda of economic reform,
:55:12. > :55:20.combined with making ourselves different from the Tories on
:55:20. > :55:24.taxation, this will come right. sticking with Nick? Indeed.
:55:24. > :55:28.heard the earlier conversation about the EU, is there any part of
:55:28. > :55:31.you that thinks, given the dramatic nature of the heart attack we have
:55:31. > :55:38.suffered economically and the changes we have to make to get our
:55:38. > :55:43.economy in a different direction, there might be a case of having a
:55:43. > :55:49.much looser direction of Europe. Perhaps this is the time for a
:55:49. > :55:53.rethink? We do need to focus a retention on markets outside the
:55:53. > :55:58.European Union and the priority on trade, which is part of my
:55:58. > :56:04.responsibility, is looking at the big emerging market. I don't think
:56:04. > :56:11.there is an argument for suggesting we're open in a fundamental way our
:56:11. > :56:15.relationship with the EU. Being part of the single market is
:56:15. > :56:20.critical. Now over to the news headlines.
:56:20. > :56:23.A World Health Organisation says hospitals in Gaza and now
:56:23. > :56:28.overwhelmed with casualties and running short of medical supplies
:56:28. > :56:34.after a fortnight of explosions. Israeli warships joined the
:56:34. > :56:41.bombardment overnight, this damage to a tower block housing foreign
:56:41. > :56:44.broadcasters. The shadow foreign secretary
:56:44. > :56:47.Douglas Alexander said the UN secretary-general should travel to
:56:47. > :56:52.the region. He said there was no military solution to the conflict
:56:52. > :56:56.between Israel and the Palestinians and called on both sides to end the
:56:56. > :56:59.violence. The business secretary Vince Cable has acknowledged public
:56:59. > :57:02.outrage over multinational companies that pay minimal tax in
:57:02. > :57:05.the UK. He said there would further
:57:05. > :57:11.investigation into their tax affairs to make sure they are
:57:11. > :57:15.paying the appropriate level of tax. The next news on BBC One is at
:57:15. > :57:19.midday. We will get back to Andrew in a moment, but first let's look
:57:19. > :57:24.at what is coming up after the programme.
:57:24. > :57:31.Is Israel's military campaign a justifiable response to attacks?
:57:31. > :57:38.Tax avoidance is killing British business - it may be legal, is it
:57:38. > :57:45.moral? That is all we have got time for
:57:45. > :57:49.this morning so thanks to my guest. Next week old be speaking to David
:57:49. > :57:54.Miliband among many others. Please join me if you can. We leave you
:57:54. > :58:04.this morning with Sixto Rodriguez, filmed exclusively for this show
:58:04. > :58:19.
:58:19. > :58:29.during rehearsals yesterday. His # I wonder how many times you've
:58:29. > :58:30.
:58:30. > :58:40.been had # And I wonder how many plans have gone bad # I wonder how
:58:40. > :58:42.
:58:42. > :58:52.many times you had sex # I wonder do you know who'll be next # I
:58:52. > :58:54.
:58:54. > :58:57.wonder l wonder wonder I do # I wonder about the love you can't
:58:57. > :59:00.find # And I wonder about the loneliness