:00:38. > :00:41.Good morning, on what is of course Stir Up Sunday. The newspapers
:00:41. > :00:44.stirred up about press regulation, politicians stirred up about Europe,
:00:44. > :00:54.but Stir Up Sunday is in fact the traditional day, the Sunday before
:00:54. > :00:56.
:00:56. > :00:59.Advent, when you're meant to stir and prepare your Christmas pudding.
:00:59. > :01:02.But if you didn't know that, you are in crowded company - 85% of us
:01:02. > :01:12.have apparently forgotten this old ritual and according to the
:01:12. > :01:15.Observer are adopting Scandinavian Christmas customs. And as we'll
:01:15. > :01:18.discuss in our paper review, the Observer is the only major Sunday
:01:18. > :01:21.not 100% against new rules to regulate the press. Joining me to
:01:21. > :01:23.talk about that are Sarah Baxter, editor of the Sunday Times magazine,
:01:23. > :01:25.and the political writer and commentator, Steve Richards.
:01:25. > :01:28.Whether or not we're going Scandinavian in our tastes, we're
:01:28. > :01:31.certainly not going European in our politics - after a hard and
:01:31. > :01:36.fruitless haggle, David Cameron and the other national leaders came
:01:36. > :01:40.home on Friday without a deal on how much money the EU can spend.
:01:40. > :01:46.With rising calls for a referendum are we now on the road to a new and
:01:46. > :01:49.looser relationship with Europe? I'll be talking to the Foreign
:01:49. > :01:53.Secretary William Hague. When will voters be asked directly what they
:01:53. > :01:57.think? I'll also be joined by a former
:01:57. > :02:00.foreign secretary, the strongly pro-European David Miliband. He was
:02:00. > :02:03.in office at the time of the last big flare-up in the Israel-Gaza
:02:03. > :02:07.crisis, four years ago. Is what's happening now only the start of a
:02:07. > :02:13.more dangerous time across the Middle East? We'll talk about the
:02:13. > :02:17.state of the Labour party, and his own role in that as well.
:02:17. > :02:20.And then there's Lord Leveson. One newspaper proprietor, Evgeny
:02:20. > :02:24.Lebedev of the Independent and London Evening Standard is here, to
:02:24. > :02:26.discuss what press regulation might mean. The Standard is running its
:02:26. > :02:30.prestigious theatre awards ceremony tonight, and theatre directors
:02:30. > :02:33.don't come much more garlanded than Sir Trevor Nunn. He'll be talking
:02:33. > :02:36.about his long and varied career, and his exuberant new production of
:02:36. > :02:43.Kiss Me, Kate, which brings together his two great loves of
:02:43. > :02:53.Shakespeare and musicals. Finally, a band who've travelled all the way
:02:53. > :02:54.
:02:54. > :02:59.from the Sahara desert, Tinariwen. We'll hear more from them later.
:02:59. > :03:02.First the news with Naga Munchetty. Good morning. A woman has been
:03:02. > :03:07.killed by a falling tree, as stormy weather causes havoc in South West
:03:07. > :03:10.England. Two other people were seriously injured when the tree
:03:10. > :03:14.came down in Exeter. Across the country there are more than 150
:03:14. > :03:24.flood warnings, with transport links badly disrupted. Andy Moore
:03:24. > :03:26.
:03:26. > :03:31.has the latest. In this village, Environment Agency workers
:03:31. > :03:37.struggled against the weight of the water to keep these trains clear.
:03:37. > :03:42.Cornwall was one of the worst-hit counties. There were four severe
:03:42. > :03:51.flood warnings, the highest possible alert meaning of right-to-
:03:51. > :03:55.life. We have never been so busy. Every station has been out,
:03:55. > :04:01.flooding from end to end. The even as he was speaking, another
:04:01. > :04:05.incident was reported. In Exeter, strong wind caused this tree to
:04:05. > :04:10.crash down on three people. The young woman was killed and two men
:04:10. > :04:16.were injured. In Millbrook, people were flooded out of their homes and
:04:16. > :04:19.emergency centres were opened to care for them. This pub has been in
:04:19. > :04:27.the hands of the new landlady for three weeks and has been flooded
:04:27. > :04:33.three times. The chairs were floating, it was quite bad.
:04:33. > :04:39.Devon, about 30 homes were flooded in this particular area. We have
:04:39. > :04:48.taken everything we can to a higher level, you always hear people
:04:48. > :04:53.saying that and that is what we did today. Major routes were affected -
:04:53. > :04:56.the M5 in Somerset was closed. As they did their best to clean up,
:04:56. > :05:00.the storm moved northwards across the rest of the country with
:05:00. > :05:05.flooding reported in many places, and yet another band of heavy rain
:05:05. > :05:09.is expected in the West Country this afternoon and this evening.
:05:09. > :05:12.More than a hundred workers have died in a fire in a clothing
:05:12. > :05:15.factory in Bangladesh. The blaze started on the ground floor of a
:05:16. > :05:19.nine-storey factory in the capital, Dhaka. Officials believe it may
:05:19. > :05:21.have been caused by faulty electrical wiring. Such fires have
:05:21. > :05:25.become common in Bangladeshi factories, causing dozens of deaths
:05:25. > :05:29.every year. Laws come into force today recognising stalking as a
:05:30. > :05:32.specific crime in England and Wales. It's hoped the new laws will give
:05:32. > :05:38.extra protection to victims, similar to that in Scotland where
:05:38. > :05:40.stalking has been recognised as an offence since 2010. A recent
:05:40. > :05:46.parliamentary inquiry found that about 120,000 people, mostly women,
:05:46. > :05:48.are stalked every year. There have been demonstrations in
:05:48. > :05:52.Egypt, against President Morsi's decision to take extensive new
:05:52. > :05:59.powers. Several hundred people gathered in Cairo's Tahrir Square
:05:59. > :06:01.to protest against the measures which limit judicial independence.
:06:01. > :06:03.The Muslim Brotherhood - the Islamist movement that backs
:06:03. > :06:13.Mohamed Morsi - has called for counter demonstrations across Egypt
:06:13. > :06:14.
:06:14. > :06:16.today. The boxer Ricky Hatton has
:06:16. > :06:19.announced his retirement, following his defeat by Vyacheslav Senchenko
:06:19. > :06:22.in Manchester last night. Hatton, who's 34, last fought in 2009, but
:06:22. > :06:25.his return to the ring ended in a knockout in the ninth round. He
:06:25. > :06:29.said he was trying to achieve redemption after three years of
:06:29. > :06:32.struggling with depression and substance abuse.
:06:32. > :06:39.That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines just
:06:39. > :06:45.before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew.
:06:45. > :06:50.Now, turning to the front pages. We mentioned the Observer. There is
:06:50. > :06:55.the Sunday Times, a story about councils taking on wind farms,
:06:55. > :07:05.which is quite interesting because as it happens Scotland on Sunday
:07:05. > :07:13.revealed the Conservatives' new logo in Scotland. It looks like a
:07:13. > :07:19.windmill. The Mail on Sunday has, I think... There is a massive amount
:07:19. > :07:25.of coverage on the Leveson story, but they have the most significant
:07:25. > :07:29.story of Paul saying David Cameron will be set to defy any calls to
:07:29. > :07:34.restrict the press in any way. The Sunday Express has an alarm and
:07:34. > :07:40.looking story, the end of the doctor's surgery. That is about
:07:40. > :07:44.more use of computers rather than seeing the doctor themselves. The
:07:44. > :07:49.Independent on Sunday has a special report on domestic violence, which
:07:49. > :07:53.they say is Britain's hidden epidemic. The Sunday Telegraph has
:07:53. > :07:57.a cracking old fashioned and extraordinary story about the
:07:57. > :08:02.family of the new Archbishop of Canterbury, about which we will be
:08:02. > :08:12.talking as well with Steve Richards and Sarah Baxter. Welcome to you
:08:12. > :08:16.
:08:16. > :08:21.both. Sarah, kick us off. I will start about the new Archbishop of
:08:22. > :08:30.Canterbury. He is extraordinary wall to Mitie figure who invented
:08:30. > :08:38.his life from the whole cloth. He is from a German Jewish family,
:08:38. > :08:44.dated the sister of Jack Kennedy, and he was a bootlegger.
:08:44. > :08:49.Italian friends, he called them. Her yes, I think Kennedy had a few
:08:49. > :08:53.Italian friends as well. On his deathbed, he revealed his son, now
:08:53. > :08:57.about to be the Archbishop of Canterbury, he said there was a
:08:57. > :09:04.secret family out there so the new archbishop is wondering whether he
:09:04. > :09:09.has any brothers or sisters, and they could get in touch with you or
:09:09. > :09:16.me. We will have them on the couch. He didn't know anything about this.
:09:16. > :09:23.There were rumours that he didn't know what was true. Sometimes our
:09:23. > :09:30.parents are the people we don't quiz. The new archbishop is a very
:09:30. > :09:35.good performer. I saw him giving a speech this week and he has a
:09:35. > :09:42.brilliant comic timing. Be get more interesting every single day.
:09:42. > :09:47.I mentioned Leveson, and I think every single newspaper has come out
:09:48. > :09:52.warning against the dangers of new press regulation accept the
:09:52. > :09:57.Observer it is a little bit wobbly but in the end it is the same.
:09:57. > :10:01.the end it comes up against as well, and one of the reasons I suspect
:10:01. > :10:07.the Mail on Sunday is on to something with a story that David
:10:07. > :10:11.Cameron is set to defy Leveson over new press laws, he has a
:10:11. > :10:18.nightmarish decision to make. All other newspapers are against and
:10:18. > :10:28.yet some of his MPs, it looks like the Labour and Lib Dems are in
:10:28. > :10:30.
:10:30. > :10:35.favour. How he resolves this, the Mail suggests that he is going to
:10:35. > :10:39.say we are going to give you one more chance and there will be a
:10:39. > :10:43.tough independent watchdog. If you misbehave again, then we will come
:10:43. > :10:47.in. That means he will never do what of course. It will be
:10:47. > :10:54.interesting to see whether he does it, and what the political reaction
:10:54. > :10:59.to that will be. I really hope the story is right and that David
:10:59. > :11:02.Cameron will think twice before introducing state regulation of the
:11:02. > :11:07.press for the first time in hundreds of years. We have had a
:11:07. > :11:14.lot of advice about how the press should be more humble and more
:11:14. > :11:19.contrite about past errors, but nothing has been more humbling than
:11:19. > :11:27.seeing powerful media figures like Rebekah Brooks and Andy Coulson
:11:27. > :11:35.going to court and facing these charges. That is under existing
:11:35. > :11:39.legislation. I don't think we need statutory control. We have to show
:11:39. > :11:46.both sides of the story and you have chosen the Observer, one of
:11:46. > :11:52.the victims of a serious misjudgment. This is Christopher
:11:52. > :11:58.Jefferies who was accused of murder and was quite seriously libelled,
:11:58. > :12:05.but was also seriously compensated. I do think there are existing
:12:05. > :12:11.remedies and some of these hard cases can lead to very bad law.
:12:11. > :12:17.should also saying balance that the Observer's columnist Will Hutton
:12:18. > :12:24.has written a piece supporting statutory legislation. You are
:12:24. > :12:29.about to interview the owner of the Independent, Evgeny Lebedev, who I
:12:29. > :12:39.know feels strongly on the other side. There was a mountain of
:12:39. > :12:39.
:12:39. > :12:45.evidence of reckless newspaper behaviour and he feels obliged to
:12:46. > :12:52.introduce something the newspapers have to adhere to, but I am pretty
:12:52. > :12:59.sure David Cameron will find a way of not doing it. Briefly, as a
:12:59. > :13:04.magazine editor I see the hidden hand of the celebrity's army of PR
:13:04. > :13:10.agents who are constantly trying to control the agenda of their clients
:13:10. > :13:16.and the most favourable terms. They want all kinds of conditions.
:13:16. > :13:20.see it from the other side. Is that justified by wrecking their lives?
:13:20. > :13:25.The fact they do that is a red herring really. We will be talking
:13:25. > :13:35.more about this with other guests before the show is over. Let's move
:13:35. > :13:41.to another story. Europe is everywhere. This is the other big
:13:41. > :13:46.running story this week. I do a one-man show about rock'n'roll
:13:46. > :13:52.politics, alive show. I did it in Edinburgh and am doing it in London
:13:52. > :14:00.in December. Ever since we were born, this has been an issue, and
:14:00. > :14:06.the story never really changes if you step back. This paper has Tony
:14:06. > :14:12.Blair, making this plea which he has been making since 1992. The
:14:12. > :14:18.Sunday Telegraph says Tory MPs demanding a referendum in or out.
:14:18. > :14:22.If you step back from it, you see that most people in British
:14:23. > :14:30.politics want us to be in, but stroppy. That is where we always
:14:30. > :14:34.end up, and that is where I suspect we will end up after this is true.
:14:34. > :14:40.Some things change, however. One of the other big stories has been the
:14:40. > :14:47.treatment of this UKIP supporting family who were told they could not
:14:47. > :14:53.foster or adopt? They couldn't foster. Nothing has given UKIP more
:14:53. > :14:57.of a fillip than that. There was a good article in the Sunday Times
:14:57. > :15:05.about how the council social workers have effectively acted by
:15:05. > :15:11.political commissars. They should not do this, but there is a story
:15:11. > :15:19.saying the fostering row gives UKIP an election boost. Denis McShane is
:15:19. > :15:22.stepping down. That is very dangerous for the Tories and Ed
:15:23. > :15:27.Miliband's repositioning on Europe is also very dangerous because he
:15:27. > :15:31.sees an opportunity to drive a wedge between the Lib Dems on the
:15:31. > :15:41.Conservatives and he will take it if he can because he knows Europe
:15:41. > :15:41.
:15:41. > :15:48.always makes the Conservatives fall The other a great human story in
:15:48. > :15:55.the papers is a Larry Hagman. is terms of coverage about him.
:15:55. > :16:02.More than when senior politicians die. He is everywhere. The Sunday
:16:02. > :16:12.Times, on the front page, have a fact that Church Tesco was a great
:16:12. > :16:14.
:16:14. > :16:21.fan of his. He was asked -- he asked if he could use posters of
:16:21. > :16:27.him. There are wonderful, wacky stories about this character.
:16:27. > :16:31.have a wonderful theory about this. At the time when the Wall came down,
:16:31. > :16:37.East Berliners were watching Dallas and thinking, I would redeem like
:16:37. > :16:46.to have all that they have over there. And the other things I
:16:46. > :16:56.discovered recently, the ranch was actually quite small. They wanted
:16:56. > :16:58.
:16:58. > :17:06.big mansions as big as South fork. That is a heck of a theory! Final
:17:06. > :17:12.story, alcohol pricing. The Sun has quite a good story. This is another
:17:12. > :17:19.government split. Here it is a government, and to regulation,
:17:19. > :17:25.considering regulating the press and the regulation of alcohol. They
:17:25. > :17:32.are contemplating on health grounds monitoring and regulating the price
:17:32. > :17:40.of cheap alcohol. I think there will be a stampede to the shops for
:17:40. > :17:47.extra supplies for Christmas. you post very much. Modern nursery
:17:47. > :17:50.rhymes. Robert Hall, storms are coming. You know the rest. We have
:17:50. > :17:53.been lashed and battered by rain and wind over the past few days.
:17:53. > :17:57.Parts of the country are like a sodden sponge. Although the rain
:17:57. > :18:07.has eased off in some areas, it could be a temporary respite. Ben
:18:07. > :18:11.
:18:11. > :18:17.The respite is only temporary. More wind and rain on the way. Some
:18:17. > :18:22.heavy rain clearing away in the north-east of England. More heavy
:18:22. > :18:28.rain Macro starting to work its way into the south-west and Wales.
:18:28. > :18:35.Cornwall and Devon are starting to turn wet in the afternoon. In the
:18:35. > :18:42.south-west of Wales, wet weather Macro pushing its way in. The for
:18:42. > :18:48.Northern Ireland, we started the day with quite a lot of fog around.
:18:48. > :18:53.In the fog, it will feel really chilly. Quite chilly in Scotland as
:18:53. > :18:58.well. Brighter skies further west. They extend through northern
:18:58. > :19:03.England and into East Anglia. In the South East, we will see
:19:03. > :19:08.increasing cloud and spots of rain. Another band of rain working its
:19:08. > :19:17.way eastwards, across the south of the country. On top of what we
:19:17. > :19:19.already have, there could be With so much available online,
:19:19. > :19:23.selling newspapers these days is a tricky business. Circulation has
:19:23. > :19:26.plummeted to a point where the very existence of famous titles is at
:19:26. > :19:29.risk. One owner believes he might have a solution - make the papers
:19:29. > :19:32.free. That's what Evgeny Lebedev has done with the Evening Standard.
:19:32. > :19:41.And this Russian born son of a billionaire has some pretty strong
:19:41. > :19:45.views on media regulation as well. Good morning. You have the Evening
:19:45. > :19:50.Standard theatre awards tonight. This has become really quite an
:19:50. > :19:55.important moment in a theatrical year in the capital. Despite all
:19:55. > :20:01.the kind of warnings of disaster, almost every season turns up some
:20:01. > :20:07.really good, serious productions of proper plays, doesn't it? If it
:20:07. > :20:13.certainly does. I am proud to own a newspaper that has consistently
:20:13. > :20:17.supported London theatre. As much as it pains me, coming from Russia,
:20:17. > :20:22.I have to say that London does boast some of the greatest stage
:20:22. > :20:27.talent in the world. The standard has consistently supported a
:20:27. > :20:35.theatre in London since the 1950s, when the awards were set up by the
:20:35. > :20:40.great editor of the Evening Standard and his legendary daughter,
:20:40. > :20:45.and a winter. She will be co- hosting the awards with me. Just a
:20:45. > :20:52.preview of some of the names and productions which are up for awards.
:20:52. > :20:58.I do not want to mention names for nomination. I will name a couple of
:20:58. > :21:06.the things I thought were brilliant fish here. One is Twelfth Night. It
:21:06. > :21:11.started off at the Globe and has now moved to the Apollo Theatre.
:21:11. > :21:17.Stephen Fry is back on stage after a long break. It is one of the best
:21:17. > :21:23.productions I have seen in a long time. Another one I would like to
:21:23. > :21:30.mention his, Collaborators. It is about the relationship between a
:21:30. > :21:34.great Russian writer and Joseph Stalin. What made that night
:21:34. > :21:40.particularly special is I found myself with a degree of separation
:21:40. > :21:44.from Joseph Stalin. I met the widow of Anthony Eden, the late Prime
:21:44. > :21:50.Minister, she told me that she actually thought he was rather a
:21:50. > :21:57.nice man. Your great grandfather was there during the really rough
:21:57. > :22:01.times with the show trials. It was a very scary time. The Evening
:22:01. > :22:09.Standard is an interesting example of a paper that was paid for and
:22:09. > :22:13.you went free. Has it worked? certainly has. It was a newspaper
:22:13. > :22:19.that was consistently losing money. It lost money for over 20 years and
:22:19. > :22:25.was about to shut. People thought we were absolutely mad when we said
:22:25. > :22:31.we were taking it free. We said we will get it into profitability in
:22:31. > :22:35.three years and we have. It has finally turned a profit. It is a
:22:35. > :22:41.great turnaround in our day and age. The Independent is still losing
:22:41. > :22:47.lots of money. You have had to close a journalistic Foundation new
:22:47. > :22:52.set-up. Your father is now facing a charge of hooliganism in Russia.
:22:52. > :22:58.This is the same new law that was used to put away Pussy Riot, the
:22:58. > :23:03.protest band. Are you worried about what is happening in Russia? Will
:23:04. > :23:09.that affect the Independent? I am quite worried. It is quite
:23:09. > :23:13.difficult to speak over the telephone. I have been out there
:23:13. > :23:18.and it is really worrying. The more time goes by, the more I have to
:23:18. > :23:24.come to terms with the fact he might go to jail. Does he think he
:23:25. > :23:32.will go to jail? If he thinks he probably will. We believe there has
:23:32. > :23:38.been a contract taken out on his head if he goes to jail. He will be
:23:38. > :23:43.attacked in jail. That is an easy place for somebody to be taken out.
:23:43. > :23:49.That is very concerning. That is terrifying. The newspapers in this
:23:49. > :23:54.country depend on money coming from Russia. Is there a risk that,
:23:54. > :23:59.frankly, the tap will have to be turned off? Where we are now,
:23:59. > :24:04.everything is fine. He is not accused of financial crime. What he
:24:04. > :24:13.did was wrong and he regrets doing it. He backed someone on a
:24:13. > :24:18.television show, we should explain. That is the only thing he is known
:24:18. > :24:23.for. He has done so many great things in the past. It is
:24:23. > :24:27.unfortunate that is what he is known for - this silly punch on
:24:27. > :24:33.television. It is completely out of proportion, the kind of charge he
:24:33. > :24:39.is facing. He could go to jail for up to seven years. If something
:24:39. > :24:43.happens to him in jail because of his campaigning and the pro-
:24:43. > :24:47.democracy newspaper, I hoped the Government in Russia will pay
:24:47. > :24:53.attention to this example. If something happens to him, they will
:24:53. > :24:57.be the ones to blame, even if they do not have anything to do with it.
:24:58. > :25:05.As a proprietor, you have a slightly unusual view of the
:25:05. > :25:09.potential effect of the new laws to regulate the press in this country.
:25:09. > :25:13.Instinctively, being a Russian and seeing the other side of over-
:25:13. > :25:19.regulated press, having grown up in the Soviet Union where the press
:25:19. > :25:24.was completely state controlled. It was written by the state. In Russia,
:25:24. > :25:31.things are better but not much better. Instinctively, I feel
:25:31. > :25:36.against any form of government regulation. That said, I think we
:25:36. > :25:44.have to Dom I have great sympathy with the victims of what happened -
:25:44. > :25:49.the victims of phone hacking, we have to be very sensible --
:25:49. > :25:53.sensitive as the press. If we are to stay with some form of self-
:25:53. > :26:00.regulation, it needs to be different from before. We need to
:26:00. > :26:05.make sure what happens does not happen again. Phone hacking was
:26:05. > :26:09.breaking the law. The problem was not so much the regulation but the
:26:09. > :26:15.enforcement of legislation. I cannot get my head around why the
:26:15. > :26:18.biggest scandal in this is being overlooked. It is the law
:26:18. > :26:22.enforcement agency who should have been arresting those journalists.
:26:22. > :26:27.They were not because they were on the take and that story has not
:26:27. > :26:31.picked up. I hope we follow it vigorously in the Independent in
:26:31. > :26:33.the days and weeks ahead. The week's news was dominated by the
:26:34. > :26:36.violent exchanges between Israel and Gaza, and the ceasefire
:26:36. > :26:41.negotiated by Egypt's Islamist President, who has tried to dig in,
:26:41. > :26:44.by awarding himself sweeping new powers. The Arab Awakening and the
:26:44. > :26:49.rise of Islamism have brought a whole new dimension to Middle
:26:49. > :26:52.Eastern politics. And now western governments are wondering aloud,
:26:52. > :26:55.what to do about Syria. Could a limited intervention be on the
:26:55. > :27:02.cards? David Miliband observes all this as a former Foreign Secretary.
:27:02. > :27:06.And he is with me now. Good morning. Thank you for coming in. What has
:27:06. > :27:10.happened over the last few weeks between Hamas on the one side and
:27:10. > :27:16.Israel and the ever has been extraordinarily disproportionate in
:27:16. > :27:21.terms of the number people who have died. Far more Palestinians have
:27:22. > :27:28.died than Israelis. And yet, they are claiming some kind of victory
:27:28. > :27:32.with the ceasefire. It is very confusing for outsiders. It is old
:27:32. > :27:37.violence in a new Middle East. The losers are the very high numbers of
:27:37. > :27:43.Palestinian casualties and the Israelis killed. The political
:27:43. > :27:51.winners are Hamas and the President of Egypt. White is that? Because
:27:51. > :27:55.they persuaded Israel not to have a ground invasion? It is chilling but
:27:55. > :28:00.true that when Palestinians in Gaza see pictures of Israelis running
:28:00. > :28:05.into bomb shelters, they'd think that is a victory - a shift in the
:28:05. > :28:11.terms of trade. Egypt is returning to a very powerful role in the
:28:11. > :28:15.Middle East. Three countries are on the rise in the Middle East. That
:28:15. > :28:21.is why at think it is right to say that the Arab Spring is being
:28:21. > :28:25.succeeded by an Islamist Autumn. These three countries have close
:28:25. > :28:30.links to Hamas, links into Iran as well, and they have difficult
:28:30. > :28:35.relations with the West. That is the new set-up in the Middle East.
:28:35. > :28:42.We are seeing what his opponents regard as a rather brutal power
:28:42. > :28:48.grab in Egypt by the new President. Meanwhile, in Syria, we do not know
:28:48. > :28:55.what will happen at the end but there is huge influence. Islamism
:28:55. > :28:59.get used for all sorts of reasons. Jihadists call themselves Islamists
:28:59. > :29:04.and politicians call themselves Islamists. All around the world,
:29:04. > :29:09.countries and communities are becoming more diverse. The danger
:29:09. > :29:16.in the Middle East is it splits into sectarian camps. Syria is the
:29:16. > :29:21.absolute and fell of that. We see it as an humanitarian crisis. It is
:29:21. > :29:25.also a regional crisis - Iran versus Saudi Arabia. And it is
:29:25. > :29:30.sectarian division. There has been a lot of discussion on the show
:29:30. > :29:36.about whether we will have limited military intervention, to protect
:29:36. > :29:42.people around the borders for... You can see countries like Turkey,
:29:42. > :29:52.who do not want to armed militia. The Kurds are then attacking Turkey.
:29:52. > :29:52.
:29:52. > :29:58.The balance has shifted. The official figure is 30,000. I am
:29:58. > :30:05.sure it is three or four times that. The longer it goes on, the worse it
:30:05. > :30:10.will get. We need to be looking, much more strongly, at what a post
:30:10. > :30:15.President Assad Syria will look like. It is important. Secondly,
:30:15. > :30:21.the way it will end best is with a palace coup. We will support that
:30:21. > :30:25.very strongly. That will be against Assad. People around him a look at
:30:25. > :30:30.the murder of the country, the implosion of the country, never
:30:30. > :30:34.mind the murder of tens of thousands of citizens. That will be
:30:34. > :30:40.very chilling for them. They want to know their position afterwards.
:30:40. > :30:50.There is a military element as well. You say that is the best outcome
:30:50. > :30:54.
:30:54. > :31:01.because it would not involve a long The fear of intervention was that
:31:01. > :31:06.it would create chaos, we have chaos now. The Prime Minister said
:31:06. > :31:11.this week that the hopes for the two state solution in the Middle
:31:11. > :31:21.East are dwindling. Whilst it is not true that establishing another
:31:21. > :31:28.
:31:28. > :31:32.state alongside the state of Israel will not... We have to ask have to
:31:32. > :31:36.do that because some are saying we need to look to the Americans to
:31:36. > :31:41.put pressure on them. The Americans are important but they can't do it
:31:41. > :31:45.on their own. The old sage that we can just leave it to the parties, I
:31:45. > :31:53.don't think it is true. They don't want compromise more than we want a
:31:53. > :31:59.settlement and we want the UN Security Council to set parameters
:31:59. > :32:03.and a timetable. Secondly, Hamas are at the table and we have got to
:32:03. > :32:10.recognise that. Thirdly, the responsibilities of the wider Arab
:32:10. > :32:16.states. Tony Blair is doing hugely diligent work on behalf of the
:32:16. > :32:20.quartet. Unsuccessfully, it has to be said. We need to give
:32:20. > :32:25.responsibility to the Arab states. Finally, there will not be a
:32:25. > :32:30.solution without the big American role but the President can't do it
:32:30. > :32:37.on his own. Who is the person President Obama could employee as
:32:37. > :32:46.Benn and Roy? It is Bill Clinton. He should be the US envoy to the
:32:46. > :32:52.Middle East. Have you asked Hillary Clinton or anyone else about this?
:32:52. > :32:56.I have put this publicly so I don't have to say it privately to them
:32:56. > :33:03.but that is the kind of game changer we need because without
:33:03. > :33:12.that, this thing of this to state solution will be a dream that was
:33:12. > :33:18.never fulfilled. -- two estate. After this week's negotiation and
:33:18. > :33:22.the growth of Euro-scepticism in the country as well as in the
:33:22. > :33:26.Conservative Party, do you think we will have a referendum over the
:33:26. > :33:31.next few years? I think there is a big garden and starting about
:33:31. > :33:35.Europe and it is about time as well. We will not have global governments
:33:35. > :33:42.around the world but a lot of problems can't be sorted out by
:33:42. > :33:48.state on their own. For this country, I think it is a tragedy it
:33:48. > :33:53.has taken us two years to find under this government that we have
:33:54. > :33:57.our allies amongst the rest of Europe. It should not take a crisis
:33:57. > :34:02.summit for other countries to come out of the closet as supporters of
:34:02. > :34:07.the UK. We should have been with them two years ago fashioning a
:34:07. > :34:13.reformer agenda. Do you understand the Labour Party's policy on Europe
:34:13. > :34:18.at the moment? Yes, I do. It is to be absolutely clear about the need
:34:18. > :34:24.for reform, but also clear that Britain is better off in Europe and
:34:24. > :34:28.Europe is stronger with Britain in it. I can't over-emphasise to you
:34:28. > :34:33.the sense of disappointment, frustration, anger that exists on
:34:33. > :34:39.the Continent at us by not only betraying our future but betraying
:34:39. > :34:42.their future. I think it has big consequences for Britain. No
:34:42. > :34:47.serious power in the 21st century will be divorced from its
:34:48. > :34:54.neighbours. It is a matter of fact. In South America and elsewhere
:34:54. > :35:01.countries are coming together. you are talking passionately and
:35:01. > :35:06.eloquently. Sorry, I get a bit..., are you coming back to frontline
:35:06. > :35:12.politics? Surely it is the time to decide. I feel I am on the front
:35:12. > :35:16.line, not on the front bench. This week I had three jobs summit about
:35:16. > :35:21.the unemployment issue. We desperately need a government U-
:35:21. > :35:29.turn on this. I want to welcome a U-turn because what they have done,
:35:29. > :35:36.the figures came out on Friday, they scrapped the future jobs fund,
:35:36. > :35:41.they brought in a work programme which is all about the programme no
:35:41. > :35:45.work. 380 people in my own community in South Shields have
:35:45. > :35:53.been unemployed for more than six months. They have apprenticeships
:35:53. > :35:57.going to the over 25s, voluntary organisations being squeezed out
:35:57. > :36:00.and the government needs to recognise it is not working.
:36:00. > :36:06.what point do you say to the electors of South Shields I am
:36:06. > :36:10.staying with you. I have said that many times. You will stay in the
:36:10. > :36:16.House of Commons and you have taken that decision? Yes, I want to fight
:36:16. > :36:22.for these people because they need a Labour MP, but the truth is they
:36:22. > :36:26.need a Labour government as well. Unless we elect them elsewhere
:36:26. > :36:30.there will not be a Labour government. I want to be a part of
:36:30. > :36:35.the Labour team on the front line even if I am not on the front bench.
:36:35. > :36:43.A lot of people in the Labour Party will be saying we need him. If the
:36:43. > :36:48.call comes, do you say yes? The you have made on the front line. High
:36:48. > :36:53.keeper watching brief on this. I said to you two years ago on this
:36:53. > :36:59.programme I didn't want a soap opera, I didn't want permanent
:36:59. > :37:03.invidious comparison. The comparison that counts is Ed
:37:03. > :37:09.Miliband against David Cameron, not compared to me. I think he is
:37:10. > :37:15.giving strong leadership. I think I am refreshing myself, I am learning,
:37:15. > :37:20.I am engaging in a different kind of politics. Let me finish, because
:37:20. > :37:26.this is important. The country needs politics at its best. The
:37:26. > :37:31.problems we face are so serious. And not a bickering soap opera.
:37:31. > :37:35.Both parties, Labour and Tory, need to recognise they have to explain
:37:35. > :37:45.to the public why they want power and what they will do with it. That
:37:45. > :37:48.
:37:48. > :37:51.is something I want to contribute to by learning at the front line.
:37:51. > :37:57.Sir Trevor Nunn must be - surely - the most successfully prolific
:37:57. > :38:01.director working in the theatre today. He's had four productions
:38:01. > :38:04.running at the same time in London recently, and his latest opening at
:38:04. > :38:07.the Old Vic, is Kiss Me, Kate - Cole Porter's re-working of The
:38:07. > :38:09.Taming of the Shrew, by William Shakespeare. So the show brings
:38:09. > :38:12.together the two great passions of Sir Trevor's career - Shakespeare,
:38:12. > :38:14.and musicals. Over the years, he's enjoyed equal success with the
:38:14. > :38:17.Royal Shakespeare Company, the National Theatre, and on the
:38:17. > :38:20.commercial side, notably with the works of Andrew Lloyd Webber. I'll
:38:20. > :38:30.be talking to Trevor Nunn in a moment, but first, here's a flavour
:38:30. > :38:46.
:38:46. > :38:51.of his new production of Kiss Me, Great stuff, and it is a
:38:51. > :38:57.wonderfully enjoyable show. It has already got people stamping and
:38:57. > :39:02.cheering, and all the things you want them to do. You have said it
:39:02. > :39:07.can be even harder to director musical than to direct Shakespeare
:39:07. > :39:10.production or a mainstream play. I was watching this and wondering
:39:10. > :39:15.what does it mean to director musical like that? What does a
:39:15. > :39:20.badly directed musical look like? A lot of people don't really
:39:21. > :39:25.understand what you do, if I may say. A musical is an immensely
:39:25. > :39:31.complex set of problems. Shakespeare plays are immensely
:39:31. > :39:35.complex set of problems because you are bringing together a group of ad
:39:35. > :39:41.hoc performers and you are teaching them a particular language
:39:41. > :39:48.discipline. In musical work, you are trained to combine the
:39:49. > :39:54.disciplines of singing and working with music, choreography, but you
:39:54. > :40:01.are also trying to get an acting style that is as truthful as the
:40:01. > :40:07.work can possibly there. You are trying to have staging ideas which
:40:07. > :40:13.are memorable and which serve the peace. And so it is where people
:40:13. > :40:19.are standing on the stage? That is the easy bit? OK. You are used to
:40:19. > :40:23.the idea that people in the theatre talk about it as a collective
:40:23. > :40:33.process. I am immensely fortunate in Kiss Me Kate that I am working
:40:33. > :40:33.
:40:33. > :40:42.with a wonderful choreographer, and designer, and we have worked
:40:42. > :40:48.together before as a team. I would say that musicals do have a
:40:48. > :40:52.peculiar habit of wanting to fly apart in all directions and
:40:52. > :40:59.probably the most important contribution of the director is to
:40:59. > :41:02.establish the kind of benevolent dictatorship way that there is only
:41:02. > :41:08.one ultimate decision-maker and that this whole project has to stay
:41:08. > :41:13.together, it has to come here, and we must combine rather than
:41:13. > :41:19.diversified. For those who don't know, this is a story that emerges
:41:19. > :41:29.out of the taming Of the Shrew, and it is about a separated couple in
:41:29. > :41:36.1948 putting on a musical version. Immensely original on Cole Porter's
:41:36. > :41:43.part because it is indeed about an all-important first performance of
:41:43. > :41:48.the show, in which the singers and the actors offstage are having a
:41:48. > :41:53.more temperamental time than the characters on stage and therefore
:41:53. > :41:59.their shenanigans begin to spillover on stage. It is very
:41:59. > :42:03.reminiscent of that great farce by Michael Frayn, were on stage and
:42:03. > :42:09.off stage get mixed up together, but Cole Porter was doing it for
:42:09. > :42:12.two years before. You have kept it very much rooted in 1948 which is
:42:12. > :42:18.interesting because there was one difficult aspect to Kiss Me Kate,
:42:18. > :42:25.which is that halfway through the husband's thanks his wife, and then
:42:25. > :42:30.there is this humour about how she used to soar to sit down. Are we
:42:30. > :42:36.laughing and domestic violence? She ends up as the surrendered wife.
:42:36. > :42:46.What seems fine in 1948 doesn't make you squirm a little bit in
:42:46. > :42:50.
:42:50. > :42:54.2012. There can be no doubt that the character of the wife has
:42:54. > :43:02.provoked him and struck him repeatedly. She has belted him
:43:02. > :43:06.across the face repeatedly and finally he gets his own back.
:43:06. > :43:11.Shakespeare in the taming Of the Shrew set out a writer more story
:43:11. > :43:15.rather than a kind of political story about the Battle of the sexes,
:43:15. > :43:25.and I think it is what Cole Porter does as well. There are these
:43:25. > :43:26.
:43:26. > :43:34.wonderful standard songs. Too Darn Hot... And then once brilliant
:43:34. > :43:39.comic songs. It is a great show. Very briefly, you started this in
:43:39. > :43:44.Chichester. I know Ian McKellen has been expressing some worries about
:43:44. > :43:51.what is happening in provincial theatre in this country, and asking
:43:51. > :43:57.whether we will have the new great directors and actors coming through
:43:57. > :44:04.and do you share those worries? do. There is nothing new, it is a
:44:04. > :44:10.kind of deja-vu when someone starts to hear about threat of cuts in the
:44:10. > :44:13.arts and it is very short-sighted. London is generally regarded as the
:44:13. > :44:18.theatre centre of the world, it is something the British do
:44:18. > :44:23.fantastically well, but that means it is an extraordinary component in
:44:23. > :44:28.the tourist business of so many thousands of people come to this
:44:28. > :44:33.country because they want to see the theatre. That has to be
:44:33. > :44:37.invested in, but not in terms of individual shows. It is the future
:44:37. > :44:41.that has to be invested in, and it is the rare companies and the
:44:41. > :44:51.regional theatres that give opportunity and training to the
:44:51. > :44:53.
:44:53. > :44:55.next generation. Thank you. Europe, the Middle East, Iran,
:44:55. > :44:58.Afghanistan - and now calls for intervention in Mali. The Foreign
:44:58. > :45:02.Secretary has a vast in-tray. William Hague joins me now from
:45:02. > :45:12.North Yorkshire - good morning, and I suppose we have to start with
:45:12. > :45:19.
:45:19. > :45:23.Europe. Are you clear in your mind The Prime Minister and I have set
:45:23. > :45:29.out our positions on this. He will speak further about it at the
:45:29. > :45:33.appropriate time. Enormous changes are happening in Europe, partly
:45:33. > :45:38.because of the crisis in the eurozone which may change the
:45:38. > :45:43.relationship between the countries in the European Union. We have also
:45:43. > :45:47.said we want to improve our relationship. Last election, the
:45:47. > :45:52.Conservative Party said we wanted to return some powers to the United
:45:52. > :45:59.Kingdom. We believe that sometimes less is more in Europe. Doing less
:45:59. > :46:04.in Europe is better for this country and other countries. When
:46:04. > :46:11.we see house that crisis plays out, and we have tried to improve our
:46:11. > :46:16.relationship with Europe, that will be the time to get fresh consent
:46:16. > :46:24.from the British people. The best way to do that would be with a
:46:24. > :46:29.referendum. We were our policies in the coming years. Can I ask you
:46:29. > :46:33.about the audit of European powers, or competencies, you have announced
:46:33. > :46:40.and have undertaken as a government? That sounds quite a
:46:40. > :46:46.neutral thing. Does this lead inevitably and rightly, in European
:46:46. > :46:52.in, to a shopping-list of power as you are determined to repatriate?
:46:52. > :46:57.It should lead to a balanced, informed debate. It is a review of
:46:57. > :47:02.a balance of competences. It is the biggest exercise any country has
:47:02. > :47:06.taken about the impact of competent and law on how decisions are made.
:47:06. > :47:10.That should help or the political parties at the next general
:47:10. > :47:16.election to be properly informed. It should help the people and media
:47:16. > :47:21.of the country to see what the real arguments are - where there is the
:47:21. > :47:25.strongest case for EU competence and the weakest case. I hope it
:47:25. > :47:30.will lead to that well-informed debate that we are going to need to
:47:30. > :47:35.have. As I've said in the last answer, when we come to the right
:47:35. > :47:39.point, the fresh consent of the British people will be required.
:47:39. > :47:48.lot of your colleagues will think, they are kicking it into the long
:47:48. > :47:54.grass as usual. It is delay, the usual story. What about the notion
:47:54. > :48:00.of having a referendum ahead of the negotiation? Possibly ahead of the
:48:00. > :48:06.election? So that the British government can go into an election
:48:06. > :48:10.and so we have the will of the British people on our backs.
:48:10. > :48:15.negotiations that have just taken place - the Prime Minister has done
:48:15. > :48:23.an outstanding job. It is not necessary to have a referendum to
:48:23. > :48:28.show where we stand. We want spending to be held down. Whatever
:48:28. > :48:34.set of negotiations, I am not sure people would want a whole string of
:48:34. > :48:39.referendums. We were set out our policy on this. The Prime Minister
:48:39. > :48:46.will set out our policy on this. We have no difficulty representing in
:48:46. > :48:50.a very hard, tough and effective way, the interests of people in
:48:50. > :48:55.Europe. When you look at a radical lack of economic competitiveness of
:48:55. > :49:00.a lot of the West at the moment, and you look at how much of our
:49:00. > :49:05.trade is with the rest of the world rather than the EU, do you think it
:49:05. > :49:10.is still the case that it would be a disaster for us economically to
:49:10. > :49:16.actually leave the union rather than stay in? If they are going to
:49:16. > :49:22.go for a deeper union, we are going to have a pretty big, existential
:49:22. > :49:26.choice to make. This partly depends on what you are saying in your
:49:26. > :49:29.question. If they're going for a deeper union, that changes the
:49:30. > :49:34.relationship between European countries. We're setting out our
:49:34. > :49:39.positive vision of the European Union. I did so to the Germans in a
:49:39. > :49:44.speech in Berlin a month ago - deepening and widening the single
:49:44. > :49:48.market and improving trade. Having more free-trade agreements with the
:49:48. > :49:53.rest of the world and dealing with other powers, like Russia, on big
:49:53. > :49:58.issues like the Iranian nuclear programme. At the same time,
:49:58. > :50:04.accepting, as others just saying, that sometimes less is more. Less
:50:04. > :50:12.can be done at the centre. That is a positive vision of the European
:50:12. > :50:20.Union. Finally, a European question. The unusual thing at this summit
:50:20. > :50:26.was that France and Germany were apart. How significant is that for
:50:26. > :50:35.the general European picture? significant, you are right about
:50:35. > :50:39.that. There was no agreed Franco's - German approach to the summit in
:50:39. > :50:46.advance. -- Franco-German approach. There was a very firm alliance
:50:46. > :50:52.between Sweden, the UK, the Netherlands and also working close
:50:52. > :50:56.with Germany to bring down some of the outlandish expectations about
:50:56. > :51:02.the European budget. It is significant and may be significant
:51:02. > :51:07.for the future. Any idea that Britain was isolated at such a
:51:07. > :51:13.summit is way off the mark. We were working very closely with those
:51:13. > :51:18.countries I mentioned. Do you take the view of some of your colleagues,
:51:18. > :51:25.such as Michael Gove, that any state regulation of the press is
:51:25. > :51:30.inherently dangerous and should be resisted? Well, I am a big
:51:30. > :51:35.supporter of press freedom, as I have said before. As indeed is
:51:35. > :51:41.Michael Gove. What you're getting at is how we will react to these
:51:41. > :51:46.Leveson report which is out shortly. We have to read the report. The
:51:46. > :51:50.Prime Minister has not seen the report yet. A newspaper is saying
:51:50. > :51:56.we are set for this battle and that battle about it but none of us have
:51:56. > :51:59.seen the report yet. I am a big supporter of the freedom of the
:51:59. > :52:04.press but I am a big supporter of reading something before I
:52:04. > :52:09.pronounce on it. We will have to do that. From that philosophical
:52:09. > :52:14.viewpoint, you have to err on the side of freedom. Let's turn to the
:52:14. > :52:17.Middle East where it has been an appalling period. Are you concerned
:52:17. > :52:24.that after all the optimism of the Arab Spring, as indeed David
:52:24. > :52:27.Miliband put it, we're entering an Islamist autumn? People like
:52:27. > :52:36.President North Sea are trying to grab more state powers in Egypt and
:52:36. > :52:41.a lot of is a must implement -- Islamist influence among opposition
:52:41. > :52:46.groups and we have to tread more carefully. Of course we have to
:52:46. > :52:50.tread carefully. Each country behaves in a different way. Each
:52:50. > :52:55.crisis is different from the others. Nevertheless, they have something
:52:55. > :53:01.in common - people who do want what we want for our country - economic
:53:01. > :53:05.success, dignity, a peaceful way of life. We must respect that and keep
:53:06. > :53:10.some faith with those people - millions of people who want those
:53:10. > :53:15.things. We must understand this process will throw up endless
:53:15. > :53:20.crises, conflicts and difficulties over a long period of time. I do
:53:20. > :53:26.not think we should lose faith in the Arab Spring. Isn't it now time
:53:26. > :53:30.for a much greater renewed effort to bring Israel and hummus together,
:53:30. > :53:37.involving the United Nations, involving Europe, more people than
:53:37. > :53:42.the original quartet? Certainly including Arab countries. It is
:53:42. > :53:48.time for a huge effort on the Middle-East peace process. This is
:53:48. > :53:53.what I have been particularly calling for. The United States mush
:53:53. > :53:58.showed the necessary leadership on this in the coming months. They
:53:58. > :54:02.have crucial leverage with Israel that no other country has. Yes, it
:54:02. > :54:07.does need the very active support of European nations and Arab
:54:07. > :54:13.nations to create incentives and disincentives for all involved, to
:54:13. > :54:23.make sure this last chance - we're coming to the final chance maybe -
:54:23. > :54:28.for aid to state solution -- for a two state solution and the conflict
:54:28. > :54:33.to be resolved. In the Government, we will keep conversations with the
:54:33. > :54:38.Americans about these things private. One form or another,
:54:38. > :54:43.whatever personal form it takes, we do look to the United States to
:54:43. > :54:49.give a decisive lead on fares in the coming months. After the tragic
:54:49. > :54:54.conflict in Gaza in the coming days, if it is possible to move on to the
:54:54. > :54:58.opening up of access in and out of Gaza and stopping the smuggling of
:54:58. > :55:05.weapons, some good could actually come of the awful crisis and
:55:05. > :55:13.terrible casualties. Chances of us being involved in a humanitarian,
:55:13. > :55:19.military-style operation a wrench - - around Syria as the crisis goes
:55:19. > :55:24.on? We are not ruling anything out in our options for Syria in the
:55:24. > :55:29.coming months. We are stepping up the humanitarian assistance. We are
:55:29. > :55:38.sending more through the opposition coalition to try to help people as
:55:38. > :55:44.the winter approaches. Would you like to see a palace coup? That
:55:44. > :55:50.depends what sort of Palace cook it is. There are people around Assad
:55:50. > :55:57.who are just as bad, or worse, than him. It is not necessarily the
:55:57. > :56:01.answer. Now for the news headlines. The Foreign Secretary, William
:56:02. > :56:06.Hague, has told this programme that the Government wanted to reach the
:56:06. > :56:13.conclusions before deciding what to do. He said his instinct was always
:56:13. > :56:18.to her on the side of press freedom when it came to regulation. The
:56:18. > :56:20.owner of the Independent newspaper, Ebvgeny Lebedev, said new rules to
:56:20. > :56:25.regulate the press should be effective. Coming from Russia, he
:56:25. > :56:30.said he was instinctively in favour of press freedom but the victims of
:56:30. > :56:39.the phone hacking scandal should be listened to. I have great sympathy
:56:39. > :56:46.with the victims of phone hacking - victims of the family's - the Dows
:56:46. > :56:50.and the McCanns. If we are to stem the some form of regulation, it has
:56:50. > :56:58.to be different from before and make sure that whatever happens
:56:58. > :57:01.does not happen again. The next news on BBC1 is at midday. Back to
:57:01. > :57:03.you Andrew. On the world music scene, artists are sometimes deeply
:57:03. > :57:05.associated with a political movement, or struggle for
:57:05. > :57:08.liberation. In the music of Tinariwen, the cause of the nomadic
:57:08. > :57:18.Tuareg people of the Sahara has found expression. The band was
:57:18. > :57:21.
:57:21. > :57:27.formed back in the 1980s in It has gained a growing
:57:27. > :57:36.international following. The musicians went back to the desert
:57:36. > :57:42.to record the album. The situation in Northern Mali is pretty grim. We
:57:42. > :57:47.will hear from two members in a moment. Next week we will be