:00:37. > :00:41.Hello and good morning. It would, of course, be a much better morning
:00:41. > :00:49.if Andrew were here and not me, but I'm keeping the chair warm while he
:00:49. > :00:52.is away getting better. We all look forward to his speedy recovery and
:00:52. > :00:55.wish him well and all the best in the meantime. Now, to business.
:00:55. > :00:58.Joining me here today for our review of the Sunday newspapers are
:00:58. > :01:00.the campaigner and broadcaster, Esther Rantzen, and Gillian Tett of
:01:00. > :01:02.the Financial Times. They'll be taking us through the headlines
:01:02. > :01:04.shortly. MPs returned to Westminster this
:01:05. > :01:07.week after the Christmas break and the usual hostilities were resumed
:01:07. > :01:13.with robust exchanges at the first Prime Minister's Questions of the
:01:13. > :01:15.new year. Ed Miliband may be ahead in the opinion polls, but is that a
:01:15. > :01:21.reflection of the coalition's unpopularity rather than confidence
:01:21. > :01:25.in Labour as an alternative government? I will be talking to
:01:25. > :01:29.the Labour leader in the hope that we can put some flesh on his policy
:01:29. > :01:32.bones. In Belfast, the violence on the streets continues as loyalists
:01:32. > :01:38.and republicans clash over the decision by Belfast City Council to
:01:38. > :01:41.stop flying the union flag every day. In the last 24 hours alone, 29
:01:41. > :01:47.police officers have been injured by fireworks, bricks and other
:01:47. > :01:49.missiles. So what does all this sectarian violence tell us about
:01:49. > :01:54.the political settlement in Northern Ireland and what, if
:01:54. > :01:58.anything, is the way forward? The First Minister, Peter Robinson,
:01:58. > :02:02.will be joining us live from Stormont Castle. Now, this actor
:02:02. > :02:05.has been much on our screens of late, playing a traitorous spy over
:02:05. > :02:13.Christmas, and a few months ago receiving rave reviews for his role
:02:13. > :02:17.in Parade's End as a sex mad vicar! After years of high profile film
:02:17. > :02:20.and TV roles, Rufus Sewell is returning to the stage. I'll be
:02:20. > :02:23.talking to him about the Pinter play Old Times which has just
:02:23. > :02:32.opened in London's West End. But first this morning, the news
:02:32. > :02:35.Good morning. The health watchdog, the Care Quality Commission, is
:02:35. > :02:38.warning that 17 NHS hospitals in England are failing to provide safe
:02:38. > :02:41.levels of staffing. Labour claims the failings reflect what it calls
:02:41. > :02:45.a toxic combination of spending cuts and health service re-
:02:45. > :02:55.organisation. But the Government insists it has increased the number
:02:55. > :02:55.
:02:55. > :02:58.of clinical staff working in the NHS. Late last year the Care
:02:58. > :03:03.Quality Commission highlighted staffing problems in NHS problems
:03:03. > :03:07.in its review of services. Labour has obtained further information,
:03:07. > :03:13.produced a list published in the Sunday Telegraph of those which had
:03:13. > :03:17.unsafe staffing levels are the most recent inspection. It includes 17
:03:17. > :03:23.hospitals, eight Mental Health Unit, and the London Ambulance Service.
:03:23. > :03:27.This comes in advance of the public inquiry report into the scandal at
:03:27. > :03:31.Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust. Its findings will address the failure
:03:31. > :03:37.of regulators to tackle a range of problems including staff shortages.
:03:37. > :03:41.A spokesman said it had told the hospital's they must comply with
:03:41. > :03:45.standards and show how they were going to achieve this. Labour
:03:45. > :03:49.points out that nursing numbers in England are down since the
:03:49. > :03:53.coalition came to power and says they can't provide the standard of
:03:53. > :03:59.care everyone wants to see if they are overstretched. The government
:03:59. > :04:06.says there are more clinical staff, including 5000 extra doctors, and
:04:06. > :04:08.says there can be no excuse for failing to provide appropriate
:04:08. > :04:11.staffing levels. An eight-year-old British girl has
:04:11. > :04:15.been shot dead while on holiday in a small town on the north coast of
:04:15. > :04:18.Jamaica. Imani Green, from Balham in south London, had been in a shop
:04:18. > :04:21.owned by her cousin, when a man walked in and opened fire. She died
:04:21. > :04:24.in hospital. Three other people, who were wounded in the attack in
:04:24. > :04:27.the town of Duncans, are in a stable condition. Police say the
:04:27. > :04:30.shooting may have been in reprisal, for an earlier gun attack. A
:04:31. > :04:40.relative of Imani's, Janelle Parmer, who was at the scene of the attack,
:04:41. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:47.told her local radio station what happened. We heard the gunshots and
:04:48. > :04:57.we ran outside and started to call her. I picked her up off the ground,
:04:57. > :05:01.and I realised she was still breathing so they drove us to the
:05:01. > :05:04.hospital, and the rest is history. The chief constable of Northern
:05:04. > :05:07.Ireland, Matt Baggott, has praised the "exceptional courage" of police
:05:07. > :05:09.officers dealing with the violent protests linked to the flying of
:05:09. > :05:12.the union flag in Belfast. Yesterday, 29 officers were injured
:05:12. > :05:16.- the biggest casualty figure for a single day since the violence began
:05:16. > :05:19.more than five weeks ago. Fireworks, bricks and other missiles were
:05:19. > :05:23.thrown as the police tried to break up clashes between loyalist and
:05:23. > :05:26.republican demonstrators in east Belfast. Senior politicians from
:05:26. > :05:32.Belfast, Dublin and Westminster will meet in London this week to
:05:32. > :05:35.discuss the protests. British military planes are to be
:05:35. > :05:37.used to transport French troops and equipment to the West African
:05:37. > :05:42.country of Mali, where the government is struggling to contain
:05:42. > :05:47.an uprising by Islamist rebels. David Cameron's spokesman said the
:05:47. > :05:57.situation in Mali posed a threat to international security. No British
:05:57. > :05:58.
:05:58. > :06:08.forces will be involved in combat operations.
:06:08. > :06:09.
:06:09. > :06:13.France's intervention in Marley seems to have galvanised the army.
:06:13. > :06:18.The militants were making more gains and a state of emergency had
:06:18. > :06:23.been announced. Since France sent in troops, some of those had been
:06:24. > :06:28.reversed. Islamists had been driven out out of the strategic central
:06:28. > :06:32.town that they had ceased earlier in the week, and now another boost
:06:32. > :06:42.for the forces - the UK will be providing logistical support.
:06:42. > :06:47.
:06:47. > :06:50.Downing Street says that no British troops will be deployed in combat.
:06:50. > :06:56.The British government fears the consequences of the ongoing war in
:06:56. > :06:58.Mali and where it could affect the UK, the crisis will be discussed by
:06:58. > :07:01.the National Security Council on Tuesday.
:07:01. > :07:09.That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines just
:07:09. > :07:15.before ten o'clock. Back to you, James.
:07:15. > :07:25.Let's have a look at the front pages as usual. In the Observer,
:07:25. > :07:26.
:07:26. > :07:32.Ken Clarke and Peter Mandelson and getting back together to fight in
:07:32. > :07:37.this story. The Sunday Telegraph has a story about the latest
:07:37. > :07:42.attempt to try and defend the Falklands and the manoeuvring going
:07:42. > :07:49.on in Argentina. A picture of the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh.
:07:49. > :07:57.Scotland on Sunday, the latest manoeuvring ahead of the
:07:57. > :08:03.independence campaign. And the Sun, somebody called Katie is getting
:08:03. > :08:08.married to a builder. These are the headlines. I'm very glad to have
:08:08. > :08:12.with us Esther Rantzen and Gillian Tett. You will be kicking off with
:08:12. > :08:16.the story about Jimmy Savile and the backwash from that.
:08:16. > :08:20.offended very depressing, not just because it is a depressing story,
:08:20. > :08:27.but now because people are beginning to search form more and
:08:27. > :08:31.more dramatic headlines. This one says that police will arrest seven
:08:31. > :08:35.more stars, which is depressing because if it is true it means
:08:35. > :08:42.there is a police leak, and if it is not true it's ridiculous, and
:08:42. > :08:48.the whole operation, I think, should be very focused on child
:08:48. > :08:52.abuse. That is what it is for and what it is about, and yet some of
:08:52. > :08:58.the recent allegations involving Jim Davidson - his agent has had to
:08:58. > :09:05.come forward and say it is about allegations concerning two women in
:09:05. > :09:08.their 20s at the time - it muddies the waters. Do you think there is a
:09:08. > :09:14.concern that these are separate issues about behaviour with young
:09:14. > :09:21.women, behaviour with children, that is getting lumped together?
:09:21. > :09:25.Absolutely. The reality is that Jimmy Savile was active for so many
:09:25. > :09:29.years that invariably what has been uncovered tortures on many aspects
:09:29. > :09:34.of British life. I agree that we should be focusing on the terrible
:09:34. > :09:39.abuse, and it went on covered for such a long time. And the lessons
:09:39. > :09:44.we can learn from it. Could it happen today? Yes, because the
:09:44. > :09:48.British justice system is letting children down. Jimmy Savile should
:09:48. > :09:53.have faced just as when he was alive. He didn't because the
:09:53. > :09:57.adversarial system is so prejudiced against child witnesses that the
:09:57. > :10:04.police and the CPS thought they could never stand up in court.
:10:04. > :10:12.of the pieces I have chosen explains why this has happened and
:10:12. > :10:17.this is a stunning piece, about a journalist who 25 years ago went to
:10:17. > :10:22.interview him. She considers herself a feminist, she's a great
:10:22. > :10:29.journalist, and she says that while she was interviewing him he licked
:10:29. > :10:34.her hand and said some disgusting words to her, and yet in hairpiece
:10:34. > :10:39.she never wrote about it. She said the comment he made was to rude,
:10:39. > :10:45.too personal, and I just excised it in classic female fashion by
:10:45. > :10:50.blaming myself. Do you think that would happen these days? All credit
:10:50. > :10:55.to her from writing this in such searing honesty because the ability
:10:55. > :11:01.of us to be conned and swept along and practise self-censorship is
:11:01. > :11:08.very powerful. Remember paedophiles have to be callous, manipulative,
:11:08. > :11:13.ruthless. They have to groom adults and he was grooming her. His jokey
:11:13. > :11:17.aspects will have allowed her to think that was just Jimmy Savile
:11:17. > :11:24.being Jimmy Savile, and not asking the question who he was doing this
:11:24. > :11:29.to, and how often, because he was grooming everyone. The question to
:11:29. > :11:36.ask after reading this piece is what are we turning a blind eye to
:11:36. > :11:40.today? Let's talk about Europe, a lot of Europe in the papers this
:11:40. > :11:45.morning. There is a lot about that but I will be starting with a
:11:45. > :11:49.stunning piece from the Sun, not known for its cutting-edge foreign
:11:49. > :11:55.policy coverage, which talks about what is happening in Greece right
:11:55. > :12:00.now and the fact that the far right are rising in power with a party
:12:00. > :12:06.called Golden Dawn. You might say why should anyone care? It is very
:12:06. > :12:11.important because, as the economic pressures rise in Europe, and they
:12:11. > :12:15.have not been fixed, we are seeing strains on the political system.
:12:15. > :12:22.The far right have been contained so far, but this piece which
:12:22. > :12:27.describes what the far right is doing is very chilling. Isn't it
:12:27. > :12:32.almost surprising this has not happened earlier? There have been a
:12:32. > :12:38.lot of protests, but no growth for these far right parties until now.
:12:38. > :12:43.Thank heavens, but the project was supposed to act to heal the wounds
:12:43. > :12:47.of World War Two and bring countries together, and it is
:12:47. > :12:54.starting to make increasing tension between the countries. Golden dawn
:12:54. > :12:59.is saying we don't like foreigners, and it is very chilling. Talking of
:12:59. > :13:05.destruction, Northern Ireland. heavens. Northern Ireland, which
:13:05. > :13:08.was such a beacon of hope because the two sides split class Wise,
:13:08. > :13:13.religion Wise, coming together for the greater good of the community,
:13:14. > :13:18.and now we have this. I would like to make a plea to the women of
:13:18. > :13:25.Northern Ireland because when you look at these thuggish crowds, they
:13:25. > :13:30.are all male, some of them very young. Is that true? Yes, not the
:13:30. > :13:35.protest, they include women, but a lot of this is about testosterone
:13:35. > :13:40.and they need to go home to their wives and mothers and they should
:13:40. > :13:45.say stop now. They are bringing a whole country into disrepute. This
:13:45. > :13:50.was a compromise, this Flagstaff, which is incomprehensible if you
:13:50. > :13:56.don't live in Northern Ireland. It seems a peculiar thing to go into
:13:56. > :14:04.the streets about, but let's talk about it rationally. Ask Peter
:14:04. > :14:09.Robinson, where are the women? shall indeed. This next story is
:14:09. > :14:13.about the economy, and wide political tensions are building
:14:13. > :14:18.across the eurozone, and in places like Northern Ireland, where the
:14:18. > :14:22.economy is still very much in the doldrums. This is a nice, on
:14:22. > :14:27.looking at the issue that although we have had a dramatic stock market
:14:27. > :14:31.rally in recent days, people think things are getting better and we
:14:32. > :14:36.are seeing some signs of optimism in some corners of the economy,
:14:36. > :14:42.particularly America, but there are some big road bumps in the days
:14:42. > :14:49.ahead. Places like Spain are very worrying, and in America, although
:14:49. > :14:53.they managed to squeak back off the edge of the fiscal cliff with some
:14:53. > :14:56.bungee-jumping, a last-minute deal, there is another crunch coming in
:14:56. > :15:00.two months because there could be an argument about the Budget.
:15:00. > :15:04.in the papers today quite a few businessmen are taking both sides
:15:04. > :15:09.on the European issue, which has suddenly caught their attention,
:15:09. > :15:14.but there are voices on both sides. Absolutely, and we are seeing are
:15:14. > :15:19.the issue of Europe coming to the fore and people saying what the
:15:19. > :15:24.question of the UK is going to do about Europe is very important. The
:15:24. > :15:31.Americans said last week we really don't want the UK to leave the EU.
:15:31. > :15:34.One of the other pieces I chose was an excellent column about what
:15:34. > :15:40.David Cameron is doing in Europe and suggesting that if he wants to
:15:40. > :15:44.find a good strategy to follow, he should be copying John Major. Look
:15:44. > :15:49.back to the supposedly boring man of British politics, who, in his
:15:49. > :15:54.own quiet way, acting like a gentleman, managed to extract some
:15:54. > :15:59.big concessions from Europe. He didn't do it by shouting and
:15:59. > :16:05.screaming, he tiptoed around. This is suggesting that is what David
:16:05. > :16:11.Cameron should be doing. He also says that if you re read Margaret
:16:11. > :16:21.Thatcher's Bruges speech, there are some sections were David Cameron
:16:21. > :16:22.
:16:22. > :16:29.thought they could not read it out Somebody has had a go at a national
:16:29. > :16:34.icon, it cannot be true! absolutely, Clare Balding! She
:16:34. > :16:38.always says the right thing, in the right way. And out comes this
:16:38. > :16:43.journalist, alas, in the Mail on Sunday, being extremely hostile to
:16:43. > :16:47.her, on the grounds that Clare Balding said, nobody Highers me for
:16:47. > :16:53.my dress sense, for my looks, it is only because of the work that I do.
:16:53. > :16:56.Now, back at the dawn of time, I was on television in 1968, and I
:16:56. > :17:02.had no dress sense, and I was not gorgeous and good-looking, like all
:17:02. > :17:07.of the children on television today. Surely not. No, I wasn't. And
:17:08. > :17:12.funnily enough, when people asked me to do fashion things, I said, no,
:17:12. > :17:18.I have got to be judged by my work. I think that Clare Balding has a
:17:18. > :17:23.point. I say, forget horses for a moment, I particularly look like a
:17:23. > :17:31.horse, I have appeared surrounded by horses, and the teeth were very
:17:31. > :17:33.difficult to tell apart, but I am in favour of women doing what Clare
:17:33. > :17:39.Balding does, and I think this journalist has once again put her
:17:39. > :17:44.foot in it. There is an interesting aspect on this in the United States,
:17:44. > :17:48.talking about this, people in the media getting presented in a very
:17:48. > :17:56.sexualised fashion, which is very disappointing and very dangerous.
:17:56. > :18:06.Speaking about female icons, someone has written a piece about
:18:06. > :18:10.
:18:10. > :18:14.Marks & Spencer's. Yes, I must talk about this wonderful piece, written
:18:14. > :18:17.by Esther Rantzen. She talks about the fact that she was part of the
:18:17. > :18:21.generation that grew up loving Marks & Spencer's, and has been
:18:21. > :18:26.disappointed recently by the fact that the clothes are caught in a
:18:26. > :18:30.limbo land, neither fashionable, nor cheap and cheerful. It very
:18:30. > :18:34.much reflects a bigger business problem faced by M&S, which is that
:18:34. > :18:38.unfortunately, it has just unveiled some very disappointing Christmas
:18:38. > :18:43.sales figures, it had a tremendous mess up with the announcement of
:18:43. > :18:49.its results, many people looking at the CEO, saying, what are you
:18:49. > :18:56.doing? It is going to be a big challenge. Just time for a couple
:18:56. > :19:01.more, Esther, duckhouses? Yes, one voice was completely unheard in all
:19:01. > :19:09.of the stuff about the MP's expenses, and that was the quack of
:19:09. > :19:16.the duck. Alan Titchmarsh has bravely come out and said, my ducks
:19:16. > :19:22.love their duckhouse, it is for the Conservation of ducks.
:19:22. > :19:32.duckhouses are good, but we should not pay for them. Very quickly,
:19:32. > :19:32.
:19:32. > :19:36.this is my favourite story, because it says that Adele is terrified of
:19:36. > :19:41.the Oscars next week. It shows that even if people seem confident in
:19:41. > :19:44.public, they are off and faking it. Too many girls these days think, I
:19:44. > :19:48.have to be really confident to succeed, and because I am not
:19:48. > :19:53.confident, I am going to take myself out of the game. This shows
:19:53. > :19:56.that everybody suffers from confidence problems at the start.
:19:56. > :20:06.Somebody like Esther Rantzen is a great example of an icon of
:20:06. > :20:11.somebody who is on TV. We might even have her on the show if we are
:20:11. > :20:15.lucky. Both of you, thank you very much indeed. It is very cold, and
:20:15. > :20:23.maybe it is going to get a bit colder. With a while the more
:20:23. > :20:26.specific forecast, here's Matt Taylor. Good morning. You summed it
:20:26. > :20:29.up quite nicely. There will be some up quite nicely. There will be some
:20:29. > :20:35.children in southern and Western areas over the next few days
:20:35. > :20:41.disappointed by the lack of snow. Rain in Northern Ireland mainly,
:20:41. > :20:50.with icy conditions and snow over the hills. In Scotland, around the
:20:50. > :20:53.coast and over some low-level sites, it is mainly rain and sleet. We
:20:53. > :20:59.will eventually see some snow away from the coast in the north-west of
:20:59. > :21:03.England and in the far north of Wales. But many southern areas stay
:21:03. > :21:08.dry and bright during the day. Tonight, across northern, central
:21:08. > :21:12.and eastern parts of England, some more significant snow will start to
:21:12. > :21:19.fall, giving a covering for the Monday morning rush-hour. There
:21:19. > :21:24.could be some ice around as well. It could be quite a difficult start
:21:24. > :21:32.to Monday. Keep in touch with your latest travel news before you set
:21:32. > :21:39.out. Another band then pushes through Scotland. Significant snow,
:21:39. > :21:44.down the eastern side of the country. But southern most counties
:21:45. > :21:49.of England, it will be pushing back to sunshine later on Monday.
:21:49. > :21:59.Feeling cold, and as the week goes on, it will feel even colder,
:21:59. > :22:00.
:22:00. > :22:03.Petrol bombs and rubber bullets, death threats and injured policemen
:22:03. > :22:07.- in recent years, we might have thought that was the language of
:22:07. > :22:10.Northern Ireland's past, but we were wrong. The decision in
:22:11. > :22:14.December by Belfast City council to stop flying the Union flag every
:22:14. > :22:17.day has sparked violent riots, which are now spreading, with
:22:17. > :22:21.loyalists and police clashing across the city, and beyond.
:22:21. > :22:25.Children as young as 11 have been arrested for violence. Local
:22:25. > :22:30.politicians have been attacked. The dispute shows no sign of going away.
:22:30. > :22:32.I am joined now kicking from Belfast by the First Minister of
:22:32. > :22:37.northern island, and the leader of the Democratic Unionist Party,
:22:37. > :22:41.Peter Robinson. You are meeting Martin McGuinness later in the week
:22:41. > :22:47.- what do you hope to get out of those talks? Are you hopeful of
:22:47. > :22:50.some kind of resolution? First of all, it is important to be saying
:22:50. > :22:59.that we have come through decades, some would say centuries of
:22:59. > :23:03.conflict and division. The politicians of this generation
:23:03. > :23:07.determined that they were not going to put down the line of trying to
:23:07. > :23:11.get a resolution to those difficulties. We took some historic
:23:11. > :23:15.decisions, and we agreed to move forward to build a shared society
:23:15. > :23:18.in Northern Ireland. It is important to tell the wider
:23:18. > :23:22.community in Northern Ireland, and indeed our friends in the rest of
:23:22. > :23:25.the United Kingdom, that we are not giving up on that. We are of the
:23:25. > :23:29.view that we are determined to build the kind of society where
:23:29. > :23:33.everybody can have a peaceful and stable existence. Of course there
:23:33. > :23:36.are people who are against what we are doing. There are people on the
:23:36. > :23:42.Republican side, dissidents, who are attempting to undermine the
:23:42. > :23:46.process here in Northern Ireland. And there are those who are using
:23:46. > :23:50.the present flags protests in order to try to undermine the stability
:23:50. > :23:53.of this strong system. They will not succeed, because we are
:23:53. > :23:56.absolutely determined that we are going ahead. We are absolutely
:23:56. > :24:01.determined, because the people have supported what we are doing at
:24:01. > :24:06.Stormont. We had Brit the election, and that is the only way you can
:24:06. > :24:10.determine the future direction of Northern Ireland. More than 99% of
:24:10. > :24:14.the elected representatives who were returned are in support of the
:24:14. > :24:20.system. To get back to the question, what do you expect to achieve at
:24:20. > :24:24.the meetings this week? Well, in the meetings this week, we have
:24:24. > :24:28.regular meetings with the United Kingdom government and with the
:24:28. > :24:31.Irish government, and we will deal with all of the outstanding issues.
:24:31. > :24:35.We will discover all of the issues, not just the violence on the
:24:35. > :24:39.streets. -- we will discuss. That's because we are not going to lose
:24:39. > :24:43.our focus on moving forward. But we will deal with those issues, and we
:24:43. > :24:47.will make it clear that condemnation exists in the wider
:24:47. > :24:51.community who believes that the way forward is to throw petrol bombs or
:24:51. > :24:57.stones at the Police. You do not sound like a man with a plan on
:24:57. > :25:01.this issue? We have already set up a unionist forum, and the purpose
:25:01. > :25:06.of that is to draw away from the protest those who want to deal with
:25:06. > :25:09.the actual issue - and the only way you can deal with that issue is
:25:09. > :25:13.through the political process. The flag on Belfast City council is not
:25:13. > :25:17.going to go up because somebody throws a petrol bomb at a policeman.
:25:17. > :25:20.The only way forward is through the political process, and we are
:25:20. > :25:25.trying to encourage people to engage in that, and we're trying to
:25:25. > :25:28.bring forward channels so that people can talk, so that the sense
:25:28. > :25:32.of that way forward is heard by everyone. Do you take any
:25:32. > :25:36.responsibility for what has taken place? Some of your supporters have
:25:36. > :25:41.been on the streets. Your party has very vocally opposed the decision
:25:41. > :25:46.over the flag - do you take responsibility yourself? I think it
:25:46. > :25:50.was a big mistake on the part of Sinn Fein, the SDLP and the
:25:50. > :25:54.Alliance Party to change the status quo at Belfast. It was a bad
:25:54. > :25:58.decision. But bad decision or not, the only way of addressing bad
:25:58. > :26:01.decisions which are taken within the democratic process is through
:26:01. > :26:04.the democratic process. Of course we have no responsibility, because
:26:04. > :26:09.the people who are out throwing stones and petrol bombs at the
:26:09. > :26:15.police are not supporters of mind, or my party. These are people who
:26:15. > :26:19.are against the political process, in which we are engaged. What does
:26:19. > :26:23.this 40 days of violence tell you about the political settlement in
:26:23. > :26:25.Northern Ireland? Some say it shows that there are still substantial
:26:25. > :26:32.minorities within Northern Ireland who feel excluded from the
:26:32. > :26:35.political process, excluded from the economic process, and that this
:26:35. > :26:41.has been late and for some time, and we are now seeing it on the
:26:41. > :26:44.streets? Well, I think there are political issues, and there are
:26:44. > :26:48.people who feel disengaged, and people who feel that if we are
:26:48. > :26:51.trying to build a shared society, they are not getting their share.
:26:51. > :26:57.This was one of the arguments which were brought forward to the
:26:57. > :26:59.coalition government, when they attempted, and succeeded, to reduce
:26:59. > :27:03.substantially the funds which were available to us in Northern Ireland.
:27:03. > :27:07.That while we have been able to tick the box of getting political
:27:07. > :27:10.structures up, we needed to win the support of the overwhelming
:27:10. > :27:15.majority of people in Northern Ireland, we had to show them that
:27:15. > :27:22.devolution work. I think we all recognise that it is no accident
:27:22. > :27:27.that the violence is occurring but a month and he -- is occurring
:27:27. > :27:30.predominantly in areas which have been associated with deprivation.
:27:30. > :27:33.Finally, for those who might be thinking about taking part in more
:27:33. > :27:37.violence tonight, what would you say to them? The only way forward
:27:37. > :27:42.in Northern Ireland is true the political and -- is true the
:27:42. > :27:45.political process. That has been endorsed overwhelmingly by the
:27:45. > :27:48.people of Northern Ireland. Any grievances have to be addressed
:27:48. > :27:53.through the democratic process. It will not change anything to be
:27:53. > :28:03.involved in violence on the streets. Thank you very much. For many of us,
:28:03. > :28:08.he first came to our attention in Middlemarch, as Will Ladislaw.
:28:08. > :28:15.Since then, Rufus Sewell has been a brooding presence in a variety of
:28:15. > :28:21.roles on our screens. It has been five years since he last appeared
:28:21. > :28:29.on the London stage, but he is now returning to the West End in Harold
:28:29. > :28:36.Pinter's most mysterious play. Here he is as a British intelligence
:28:36. > :28:43.officer, trying to recruit new agents, in Restless. How can I
:28:43. > :28:53.believe you? Why would I lie to you? My brother is dead, that is
:28:53. > :28:55.
:28:56. > :29:01.all I care about. What is this, some kind of joke? You are a
:29:01. > :29:08.British citizen, you will earn �500 a year. We will get your father
:29:08. > :29:15.into hospital, the best treatment. You can do something to avenge that
:29:15. > :29:17.death. Welcome to the show. Tell us first something about this Harold
:29:17. > :29:21.the Prime Minister play. It is described as his most mysterious,
:29:22. > :29:26.and perhaps most challenging. That's saying something for Harold
:29:26. > :29:30.the Prime Minister. It is the only Harold the Prime Minister play I
:29:30. > :29:36.have ever done, so I cannot really compare it, other than a short one
:29:36. > :29:42.I did, called Victoria Station, a few years ago. But yes, it is about
:29:42. > :29:48.three people in a farmhouse, a husband and wife, and they are
:29:48. > :29:52.about to be visited by the wife's best friend from 20 years before.
:29:52. > :29:56.And it turns out that they have a kind of shared history, all three
:29:56. > :30:01.of them, and that their own versions of the past are slightly
:30:01. > :30:06.conflicting, and there is a crossover between these two women
:30:06. > :30:10.in their memory. It is complicated, it is about memory and whether you
:30:10. > :30:14.can trust it. When you're performing, delivering, do you
:30:14. > :30:21.understand everything you say all the time, or are there so many
:30:21. > :30:25.interpretations, as there would seem to be, that...? I try to
:30:25. > :30:30.understand exactly what I mean, if you know what I am saying! There is
:30:30. > :30:35.an added complication, in that Kristin Scott Thomas and Lia
:30:35. > :30:38.Williams, two fantastic actresses, are alternating roles. So, for
:30:38. > :30:42.three or four nights, Kristin Scott Thomas will play my wife, and Lia
:30:42. > :30:48.Williams will play the visitor. And then, four nights later, they swap
:30:48. > :30:52.around. Later on in the run, I think we are going to do one
:30:52. > :30:56.version for the matinee and one for the evening. Occasionally, we will
:30:56. > :31:01.flip a coin. This is the idea at least. So, if it is complicated in
:31:01. > :31:06.its normal version... But strangely enough, this kind of shines a light
:31:06. > :31:16.on the play in an interesting way.. It is not just a gimmick to attract
:31:16. > :31:18.
:31:18. > :31:24.Hopefully it will work on both of those levels. I responded to this
:31:24. > :31:32.amazing part and the cast, and then I thought oh, they are swapping as
:31:32. > :31:37.well, we will work that out. That has worked out to be so much part
:31:38. > :31:42.of the play that I find it hard to separate it now. Maybe some people
:31:42. > :31:50.thought it was a gimmick for people to buy more tickets, maybe it will
:31:50. > :31:57.have that effect as well, but it is not about that. I understand his
:31:57. > :32:02.widow was there last night, did that go well? We went round to her
:32:02. > :32:07.house in rehearsals, and she laid on some food and we had a drink,
:32:07. > :32:11.and she was very welcoming and helpful. We felt a lot of support
:32:12. > :32:15.from her so it would not have been frightening thing, but the first
:32:15. > :32:22.time you ever do it, it was wonderful to find out she had been
:32:22. > :32:28.there but I'm glad I found out after and not before. Why has it
:32:28. > :32:32.been such a long gap since you were lost on stage? When I left drama
:32:32. > :32:38.school I did a lot more plays because I could not get any part on
:32:38. > :32:42.television, but it has been about five years. I finished rock'n'roll
:32:42. > :32:47.wanting to do another great role as soon as possible, but for some
:32:47. > :32:53.reason there is a certain level of typecasting I have to work with. I
:32:53. > :32:57.haven't accepted it, but I have to work within its parameters. In
:32:57. > :33:02.theatre, no. If I'm offered something based on a previous
:33:02. > :33:06.success, I'm not really interesting. When you say I have played dark and
:33:06. > :33:10.brooding characters, I want blonde and bubbly. That is almost a joke,
:33:10. > :33:20.but anything I have established as a strength, I want to walk away
:33:20. > :33:24.
:33:24. > :33:29.from. We remember you first from Middlemarch March, do you have
:33:29. > :33:39.happy memories of that? For me it was interesting because I got two
:33:39. > :33:45.jobs at the same time. It came from one job - James Saunders' Making It
:33:45. > :33:55.Better, and the same haircut did for both, luckily. We did a few
:33:55. > :33:57.
:33:57. > :34:00.weeks in the play, then I would go and shoot Middlemarch a, but it was
:34:00. > :34:06.followed by an enormous length of unemployment so I didn't get too
:34:06. > :34:14.excited by it. Parade's End did incredibly well. I think we have a
:34:14. > :34:24.small club we can play now that chose to in your madness. Left in
:34:24. > :34:28.
:34:28. > :34:38.the hall... Your friend, another medical man. Take two of course to
:34:38. > :34:40.
:34:40. > :34:45.certify a lunatic. Oh, very good. It is all about the eyebrows. A how
:34:45. > :34:50.long does this play last four? We started previews last night so it
:34:50. > :34:57.was exciting to do it in front of a packed house, and reopen in about
:34:58. > :35:01.three weeks, for about 12 weeks, and after that, who knows? Thank
:35:01. > :35:05.you. Yesterday the Labour leader Ed
:35:05. > :35:10.Miliband delivered a speech in London where he try to flesh out a
:35:10. > :35:15.team first heard last September at the party conference. Labour is the
:35:15. > :35:19.One Nation party, but what does it mean? What are the specific
:35:19. > :35:25.policies behind this opaque phrase? And how seriously does he take
:35:25. > :35:31.warnings that on economic competence, he has yet to win over
:35:31. > :35:39.the public. He is with me now. Welcome to the show. Your big idea
:35:39. > :35:43.at the moment is One Nation Labour, where everybody plays a part. In a
:35:43. > :35:48.One Nation Britain, why should rich people be able to claim child
:35:48. > :35:53.benefit? Let me first say, on behalf of myself and everybody
:35:53. > :35:59.across politics, I wish Andrew Marr a speedy recovery. Best wishes to
:35:59. > :36:04.him and his family. On One Nation, let me take a step back, what is it
:36:04. > :36:08.about? It is about the way I want to govern this country, learning
:36:08. > :36:12.from history which says the way that we have succeeded is by making
:36:12. > :36:17.sure everybody plays their part and we have rebuilt the country
:36:17. > :36:20.together. That was the lesson after the Second World War and has always
:36:20. > :36:25.been the lesson from difficult economic times. That means that you
:36:25. > :36:29.have got to make sure everybody has an opportunity to play their part,
:36:29. > :36:35.and also that everybody shows responsibility to the top of
:36:35. > :36:38.society. To come to your specific question, my way that people at the
:36:38. > :36:43.top should be paying responsibility is not by cutting the top rate of
:36:43. > :36:47.income tax. I think universal benefits are important bedrock of
:36:47. > :36:53.society. I wouldn't have made that choice this government is making,
:36:53. > :36:58.but neither would I have made a choice to cut the top rate of
:36:58. > :37:03.income tax from this April. It is a difference of view about how UN
:37:03. > :37:10.force responsibility. Personally, I think this government is not doing
:37:10. > :37:16.that at the top. So, you would reverse this? I'm not going to say
:37:16. > :37:20.that, no. Her can you attack the government for it? A let me explain
:37:20. > :37:25.because I have got to be telling you what I would do in government
:37:25. > :37:29.now. I don't know the state of the finances, and I have made it clear
:37:29. > :37:34.that we will come forward at the election and say exactly what we
:37:34. > :37:40.would reverse. If I came on to this programme and promised to reverse
:37:40. > :37:45.this and that, you would be saying how will you be paying for it? I
:37:45. > :37:49.have got to be saying what I would be doing, what choice as I would be
:37:49. > :37:58.making in government now. Frankly the government can't tell you what
:37:58. > :38:03.state the government finances will be in. If everyone should play
:38:03. > :38:09.their part in a One Nation Britain, why should rich pensioners be able
:38:09. > :38:14.to claim a free bus pass, a free television licence, and winter fuel
:38:14. > :38:19.allowance? It goes back to what I said earlier. If you are saying to
:38:19. > :38:23.me that we should make everything in our society means tested, not
:38:23. > :38:27.universal, that would include child benefit, the health service, old-
:38:28. > :38:31.age pension, that is not the road I want to go down because I think
:38:31. > :38:38.everybody, as part of being a citizen of the country, is entitled
:38:38. > :38:42.to some basic things. Then the question is how do you make sure
:38:42. > :38:46.people make a proper contribution, and the where you do that is
:38:46. > :38:51.through the tax system. I wouldn't be cutting the top rate of income
:38:51. > :38:56.tax, I would be making another change. At the moment the richest
:38:56. > :39:00.in society get much more in terms of pensions tax relief than middle-
:39:00. > :39:05.income families. Ed Balls said the other day... What I don't
:39:05. > :39:08.understand is this - you are prepared to say we will tax the
:39:08. > :39:14.rich more on their pension contributions but we will not take
:39:14. > :39:19.their child benefit from them. I don't see why there is a principled
:39:19. > :39:24.difference. Because there is an important principle about the way
:39:24. > :39:27.our country works. If you are saying to me there is one perfectly
:39:27. > :39:32.legitimate view which I disagree with, which is to means test
:39:32. > :39:39.everything, that is what you are saying. Millionaires get a free
:39:39. > :39:42.health service... They get a free health service. I don't see you
:39:42. > :39:46.coming to me and saying we should means test millionaires when it
:39:46. > :39:51.comes to the health service. You have a basic foundation that
:39:51. > :39:56.everybody gets Andy make sure you tax people fairly. Of course we
:39:56. > :40:02.should look at the balance, but that is the right way forward. In
:40:02. > :40:09.the end, the government will say they are taking child benefit away,
:40:09. > :40:13.and they are hitting middle income families, families on 50,000,
:40:13. > :40:23.60,000, and the prime minister can't answer the question why is it
:40:23. > :40:31.that... Let me make this point. It is this distinction about why it is
:40:31. > :40:35.a fair way of doing it. Why is the tax system fairer? Because it
:40:35. > :40:40.avoids the anomalies. A your message to pensioners this morning
:40:40. > :40:44.is that there pension benefits are safe? There my message is that the
:40:44. > :40:49.election will set out what we say. That is another thing you can't
:40:49. > :40:55.tell us. We introduced the winter fuel allowance, I think it is a
:40:55. > :41:01.good policy, but I am saying I will come forward at the election saying
:41:01. > :41:06.precisely what policies we will follow. Isn't it a principle of One
:41:06. > :41:11.Nation labour that you want to keep universality and not means test.
:41:11. > :41:16.is important as the bedrock of the system, but why is it so difficult
:41:16. > :41:22.to make these judgments now? It is because of what is happening to
:41:22. > :41:26.borrowing in this country. It is going up, not down, and One Nation
:41:26. > :41:33.labour says we have to operate in different circumstances - there
:41:33. > :41:37.will be less money to spend. Because of that, we have to make a
:41:37. > :41:41.different choice on the top rate of income tax, decisions we have
:41:41. > :41:45.talked about on public sector pay, so across a whole range of areas we
:41:45. > :41:49.have said why we are in more difficult times and why difficult
:41:49. > :41:54.decisions unnecessary. You a brother stood up in the House of
:41:54. > :42:01.Commons this week and said "we need to choose between old-age benefits
:42:01. > :42:09.or long-term care". He is saying the time has come to make those
:42:09. > :42:13.choices. I am making choices, but you don't like my choice. I would
:42:14. > :42:18.like you'd tell me what it means come the next election. If I was in
:42:18. > :42:23.government tomorrow, we would not be cutting the income tax rate to
:42:23. > :42:28.45p. This is about what offer you give to British people down the
:42:28. > :42:32.road. I know, and I think the sensible thing for a party in
:42:32. > :42:36.opposition to do is to set out, when it comes to the election, its
:42:36. > :42:40.choices but I think you will have a pretty clear sense of where we
:42:40. > :42:44.stand on these issues, that we would not run this country in the
:42:44. > :42:54.interests of a few people at the top. It would be a much fairer
:42:54. > :42:58.system. This week you voted against a real terms cut in tax credits,
:42:58. > :43:02.but in a One Nation Britain, shouldn't those on welfare play
:43:02. > :43:06.their part as well? Of course they should, but the most important
:43:06. > :43:11.thing we need to do to get the benefits bill down is to get people
:43:11. > :43:14.back to work. Why is it rising under this government? Not because
:43:14. > :43:21.George Osborne is being generous to people, but because the government
:43:21. > :43:27.has failed on the economy. That is why are they are borrowing �212
:43:27. > :43:31.billion more than they promised. On this deficit issue, you get it down
:43:31. > :43:38.through a combination of decisions on tax and spending, but growth is
:43:38. > :43:43.the missing ingredient. We don't have any growth, and that is the
:43:43. > :43:49.issue this country is facing. you accept, clearly the creation of
:43:49. > :43:53.jobs would help the benefit bill, not alone, but it is a third of
:43:53. > :43:57.government spending. Do you accept that at some stage you will have to
:43:57. > :44:05.cut the welfare bill instead of just promising jobs. The best way
:44:05. > :44:09.to do that is to get unemployment down. It is the best way because...
:44:09. > :44:14.Why is the government having to spend more than they forecast on
:44:14. > :44:17.social security? Not because of generosity but because they are
:44:17. > :44:22.failing on unemployment. We said we would make a decision on pensions
:44:22. > :44:27.tax relief for the richest, to put people back to work and say after
:44:27. > :44:31.two years if you are offered a job you have got to take one. Real
:44:31. > :44:41.welfare reform is a different choice than what this government is
:44:41. > :44:43.
:44:43. > :44:48.making. This is about what promises you are making to the British
:44:48. > :44:52.electorate. It is not reasonable at this stage in the parliament to set
:44:52. > :44:58.out the precise manifesto. I'm happy to talk about it would we
:44:58. > :45:02.publish it. You could be prime minister in two years, and yet
:45:02. > :45:07.there is this gaping lead crooner with the electorate not knowing
:45:07. > :45:10.what you promise to do. If I don't agree with that. We set out
:45:10. > :45:15.policies on banking reform, on the way we need to make the vested
:45:15. > :45:20.interest at the top of our society play by the rules. We set out
:45:20. > :45:23.policies on energy reform to get a better deal for people. One Nation
:45:23. > :45:33.is about responsibility going to the top of society and spreading
:45:33. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:38.opportunity. We set out how we get 50% of young people who don't go to
:45:38. > :45:48.university, how to get them proper qualifications. We have got more
:45:48. > :45:53.
:45:53. > :45:56.policy than most oppositions half If I was coming along 2.5 years
:45:57. > :46:01.before an election, without knowing the state of the public finances,
:46:01. > :46:05.without knowing the state of the economy, giving the details of a
:46:05. > :46:09.manifesto, you would be saying, that is not responsible. By the way,
:46:09. > :46:19.Labour do this in the past, in 1992, and it was a mistake. We are not
:46:19. > :46:23.going to make that mistake. spent the last week attacking the
:46:23. > :46:26.government on the millionaires' tax cut, as you called it. Raising
:46:26. > :46:30.attacks like that has nothing to do with the state of the economy in a
:46:30. > :46:34.couple of years' time. A course it is part of the economy. It is part
:46:34. > :46:37.of the overall judgment you make about the state of the economy. We
:46:37. > :46:41.will make sure we have greater tax fairness in this country. I think
:46:41. > :46:45.the tax system is unfair. I think middle-income families are getting
:46:46. > :46:49.a raw deal from the tax system, as are low-income families. We could
:46:49. > :46:56.play this game for the whole interview, where you say, what is
:46:56. > :46:59.going to be in your manifesto, and I say... Am not asking for a budget,
:47:00. > :47:02.I am asking for a very specific policy. The top rate of income tax,
:47:02. > :47:06.the whole thrust of your argument against the government over the
:47:06. > :47:12.last 10 days, throughout the entire welfare debate, has all been
:47:12. > :47:18.about... I think it is very unfair... Labour might accept this.
:47:18. > :47:22.You say it is unfair, but you might accept it. If I was in government
:47:22. > :47:27.tomorrow, I would be reversing that. By the way, one area where we have
:47:27. > :47:31.got to take action is tax avoidance. We have got a situation where many
:47:31. > :47:36.British companies and individuals are paying their fair share of tax.
:47:36. > :47:40.They looked in horror at a system where some multinational companies
:47:40. > :47:44.from other countries can make huge profits in Britain and not pay
:47:44. > :47:48.taxes in Britain. This is scandalous. It has got to change.
:47:48. > :47:52.The next Labour government will change it. We will end the tax
:47:52. > :47:55.secrecy. We cannot have a situation where we do not know how much tax
:47:55. > :47:59.people are paying, against how much profit they are making. I am
:47:59. > :48:03.serving notice that we will take action, we will end the situation
:48:03. > :48:07.where you can get away with making big profits in Britain, and with no
:48:07. > :48:11.justification at all, not pay any tax. Frankly, it is an insult to
:48:11. > :48:15.hard-working taxpayers in this country. Transparency is one thing
:48:15. > :48:20.- what else would you do to change the actual tax system itself? A lot
:48:20. > :48:24.of these companies at the moment are not actually breaking the law...
:48:24. > :48:27.Well, first of all, the Prime Minister is talking about greater
:48:27. > :48:31.transparency, and he has got to push for that on an international
:48:31. > :48:35.basis. But he has also got to say that if it does not happen
:48:35. > :48:38.internationally, we will make sure that it happens here at home. Why
:48:38. > :48:42.is that so important? We have got to know how much tax people are
:48:42. > :48:46.paying, against profits. I think that will make it harder for
:48:46. > :48:51.companies to do the wrong thing. Secondly, we have got to look at
:48:51. > :48:55.the rules on how companies can distribute their profits. That is a
:48:55. > :48:59.problem we have got in relation to this issue. Countries like Denmark
:48:59. > :49:03.have a much tougher approach. Our policy review will be looking at
:49:03. > :49:08.those examples and making sure that we act. It is a very clear
:49:08. > :49:12.statement that I am making, we will act on this issue, James. We cannot
:49:12. > :49:16.have a situation where companies feel that they can get away without
:49:16. > :49:22.paying their proper fair share. companies like Amazon, Google,
:49:22. > :49:25.Starbucks, will not be able to do what they are doing? I am saying
:49:25. > :49:31.this to all companies. You will have to pay a proper, fair share of
:49:31. > :49:36.tax in Britain. Let's have a look at the most important issue, the
:49:36. > :49:41.economy. Peter Mandelson says that your task this year is to increase
:49:41. > :49:48.to us -- increase trust in Labour's fiscal credentials - why is that
:49:48. > :49:53.trust not there now? There is always work for the party in
:49:53. > :49:58.opposition. We had a financial crisis on a global scale while we
:49:58. > :50:01.were in power. It is something we have got to build. Going back to
:50:01. > :50:05.our previous conversation, that is why we have not make promises now
:50:05. > :50:09.about which cuts we would reverse, because we are not going to make
:50:09. > :50:14.commitments which we cannot afford. That's why our policy review focus
:50:14. > :50:17.is precisely on this question, how to deliver more with yes. You will
:50:17. > :50:19.see Andy Burnham talking about greater integration of services in
:50:20. > :50:23.the Health Service, to make sure that we can deliver more, and even
:50:23. > :50:26.when there is less money around. Yvette Cooper will be looking at
:50:26. > :50:30.the police, how to make sure that even in tough times, you can
:50:30. > :50:34.deliver the kind of policing that people want with less money around.
:50:34. > :50:40.That is a change from the last government. It is about saying,
:50:40. > :50:44.there is less money to spend. One- nation Labour is about how we
:50:44. > :50:52.change our country with having less money to spend. George Osborne has
:50:52. > :51:00.had to repeatedly changed his plans, he has had an omnishambles budget,
:51:00. > :51:03.he has had a double-dip recession, and yet people seem to trust him...
:51:03. > :51:07.They were given the benefit of the doubt by the electorate, and people
:51:07. > :51:11.said, let's see if it works. I think people are coming to the view
:51:11. > :51:15.that it is not working. But if you were saying to me, do we have a big
:51:15. > :51:20.job to do to build that economic credibility? Absolutely, we do. It
:51:20. > :51:24.was not popular in our party when Ed Balls said, I'm afraid, in this
:51:24. > :51:29.Parliament, we put jobs ahead of pay in the public sector. It was
:51:29. > :51:33.unpopular, in fact, but it was the right thing to do. That is a sign
:51:33. > :51:39.of our determination to be absolutely tough and clear about
:51:39. > :51:42.the circumstances facing the next Labour government. You mentioned Ed
:51:42. > :51:49.Balls - does he scare middle- England a little? Can you guarantee
:51:49. > :51:54.that he will be your Chancellor, will he be Shadow Chancellor at the
:51:54. > :51:57.next general election? Absolutely. We have said that we will go into
:51:57. > :52:02.the next election as a team. But what I am not going to do is to
:52:02. > :52:05.start measuring the curtains for Downing Street. Will he be your
:52:05. > :52:12.Shadow Chancellor? Yes, he is doing a great job, and he will continue
:52:12. > :52:16.to do so. He is the person who said, in August 2010, that actually, I'm
:52:16. > :52:21.afraid, this is not going to work, these plans from the Government. He
:52:21. > :52:26.turned out to be right. And those kind of good judgements are
:52:26. > :52:29.incredibly important in politics. So, if David Miliband comes back to
:52:29. > :52:34.the Shadow Cabinet, he will not be Shadow Chancellor? There is no
:52:34. > :52:41.vacancy for Shadow Chancellor. me just deal with cabinet issues -
:52:41. > :52:45.first of all, today, there was this report from the commission, saying
:52:45. > :52:50.that no fewer than 17 hospitals are operating without enough staff to
:52:50. > :52:54.be safe... It is a shocking set of findings. You have got a government
:52:54. > :52:58.which has embarked upon a huge top- down reorganisation of the Health
:52:58. > :53:02.Service, costing billions of pounds, and actually, we have got 7,000
:53:02. > :53:06.fewer nurses in the Health Service. The Government has got to explain
:53:06. > :53:10.what is happening in our hospitals, why this is being allowed to happen,
:53:10. > :53:13.and has got to take action to do something about it. I think people
:53:13. > :53:17.will be deeply concerned about what they see, and what action can be
:53:17. > :53:21.taken.. In the next few weeks, David Cameron will be given a
:53:21. > :53:24.speech in which he is likely to promise some kind of referendum on
:53:24. > :53:27.Europe - why do you think the British people should not have a
:53:27. > :53:32.say over their future relationship with Europe? I think it is
:53:32. > :53:35.incredibly dangerous, what David Cameron is doing. He is essentially
:53:35. > :53:39.sleepwalking us towards the exit door from the European Union. Let
:53:39. > :53:42.me explain why I have made that judgment. If you think about a
:53:42. > :53:46.young person looking for work today. Think about a small business
:53:46. > :53:52.looking for a loan from the bank - what can we do to help them? The
:53:52. > :53:58.last thing we should do is start to say, for some date five, six, seven
:53:58. > :54:03.years hence, let's decide now to have a referendum on in or out of
:54:03. > :54:07.Europe. As Michael Heseltine said yesterday, what does that mean? It
:54:07. > :54:12.means a referendum on a negotiation which has not yet begun, with a
:54:12. > :54:16.timescale which is uncertain and an outcome which is unknown. Either
:54:16. > :54:20.way, David Cameron and myself stood shoulder to shoulder in 2007, we
:54:20. > :54:23.both said this was a bad idea. We know why this is happening, it is
:54:23. > :54:28.because he is worried about UKIP, and worried about what is happening
:54:28. > :54:33.within his own party. Just to be clear, there will be no referendum
:54:33. > :54:38.under a Labour government? There is legislation on the books concerning
:54:38. > :54:42.any major transfer of power. But I am very clear, the question for now
:54:42. > :54:47.is, should we commit to a referendum? I am saying very
:54:47. > :54:50.clearly to you, no is the answer. That is a commitment all the way up
:54:50. > :54:54.to the next election? I am not going to speculate about years
:54:54. > :54:58.hence, but I am giving you a very clear view, it is the one thing to
:54:58. > :55:03.do. While we are on Europe, in the television debates at the next
:55:03. > :55:06.election, should UKIP have a role? That is up to the people organising
:55:06. > :55:10.the debates. I have to say, David Cameron I think is not sure whether
:55:10. > :55:14.he wants to do these debates. I am relishing them, looking forward to
:55:14. > :55:16.them, I hope they happen, I think they will give an insight to the
:55:16. > :55:21.public directly into what is happening at the election. Can you
:55:21. > :55:25.imagine sitting around a Cabinet table with Nick Clegg? What I want
:55:25. > :55:32.is a majority Labour government. Frankly, I am not going to start
:55:32. > :55:39.going into the election thinking about coalitions. The I am looking
:55:39. > :55:42.for a majority Labour government, winning back trust in people. Not
:55:42. > :55:49.just for people at the top, but for the bars majority of people in this
:55:49. > :55:53.country. -- the vast majority. Blair changed your party's name to
:55:53. > :55:58.New Labour, have you changed it to one-nation Labour? I am definitely
:55:58. > :56:03.using that name. I am not going into a rebranding exercise, but
:56:03. > :56:06.one-nation Labour is a way forward for this country. It moves on from
:56:06. > :56:11.old Labour. And it is different from the Conservative Party that we
:56:11. > :56:15.have. Above all, it is bringing the country together, not dividing, as
:56:15. > :56:19.David Cameron has been doing. question - you will not tell us
:56:19. > :56:22.what benefits you will cut, what taxes you will increase, how you
:56:22. > :56:27.will cut the deficit, but you were clear about a referendum, so my
:56:27. > :56:31.last question is this - isn't this lack of detail one reason why many
:56:31. > :56:35.people look at Labour and they say, yes, effective opposition, but they
:56:35. > :56:39.have not quite made the leap yet to being a genuine, credible
:56:39. > :56:43.alternative for government? I do not agree -- I do not agree at all.
:56:43. > :56:47.We have covered all areas from immigration to banking regulation.
:56:47. > :56:50.We have set out a vision to bring this country together and to help
:56:50. > :56:54.everybody across the population have opportunity. We have shown
:56:54. > :56:59.that we will not govern the country for a few which and powerful people.
:56:59. > :57:02.We are setting out policies, from banking to energy, to helping young
:57:02. > :57:05.people get qualifications, which will change this country in a
:57:05. > :57:08.different way, if not by spending more money. That is a big change,
:57:08. > :57:12.it is different either from the last government, or from this
:57:12. > :57:15.government. Thank you very much for being with us this morning. Time
:57:15. > :57:19.for the headlines. The Labour leader, Ed Miliband, has told this
:57:19. > :57:22.programme that a future Labour government will act to make sure
:57:22. > :57:26.that multinational companies pay their fair share of corporation tax.
:57:26. > :57:30.He said that the party would demand transparency over companies' tax
:57:30. > :57:36.affairs, and would look at changing the law to prevent companies from
:57:36. > :57:40.distributing their profits abroad in order to avoid tax in the UK. Ed
:57:40. > :57:44.Miliband said he was shocked at the report from the Care Quality
:57:44. > :57:48.Commission, which found that 17 NHS hospitals in England are failing to
:57:48. > :57:52.provide safe levels of staffing. Labour says that the findings
:57:52. > :57:54.reflect what it calls a toxic combination of cuts and
:57:54. > :58:00.reorganisation, but the Government says that the number of NHS
:58:00. > :58:03.clinical staff has risen since the year 2010. The First Minister of
:58:03. > :58:06.northern island has appealed for an end to the violent protests over
:58:06. > :58:10.the flying of the Union flag. Peter Robinson said that the
:58:10. > :58:13.demonstrations would not change anything, and that the only way
:58:13. > :58:16.forward was through the political process. 29 police officers were
:58:16. > :58:21.injured yesterday after coming under fire from bricks and other
:58:21. > :58:27.missiles during violent clashes between loyalist and republican
:58:27. > :58:35.factions in east Belfast. That's all from me for now. Here's what's
:58:35. > :58:38.coming up after this programme. We will have a special edition of the
:58:39. > :58:46.big question, asking one fundamental question - is it time
:58:46. > :58:48.for all religions to accept evolution? We have got a panel of
:58:48. > :58:55.distinguished writers and broadcasters, but others, to
:58:55. > :58:59.discuss it. That's it for this morning. Next week, Jeremy Vine
:58:59. > :59:03.will be at the helm, and his guests will include the Deputy Prime
:59:03. > :59:07.Minister, Nick Clegg, and one of the greatest names in the film