:00:37. > :00:42.It is just four days since we all began to learn the full horror of
:00:42. > :00:44.that attack in Woolwich. It is perhaps worth remembering that on
:00:44. > :00:49.Wednesday afternoon,le some at the heart of Government feared that we
:00:49. > :00:54.could be on the edge of a deadly wave of terrorist atrocities.
:00:54. > :01:00.Followed perhaps by a backlash. Thankfully, thus far, none of that
:01:00. > :01:05.has come to pass, but much from that dreadful afternoon to reflect on
:01:05. > :01:11.this weekend. The Sunday papers are filled with reporting and analysis
:01:11. > :01:16.on the sorrow and the missed clues and the debate about what to do now
:01:16. > :01:21.following the brutal murder of Drummer Lee Rigby. Joining me is
:01:21. > :01:27.Sarah Sands and the actress and writer, Meera Syal who will be
:01:27. > :01:31.telling us about her plan to fuse Bollywood and Carmen in a park in
:01:31. > :01:36.Bradford. It is, of course, the Home Secretary who must decide whether to
:01:36. > :01:41.treat last week's murder as a treshl, never to be forgotten, but
:01:41. > :01:45.hopefully one off crime or as a wake-up call to the extent of the
:01:45. > :01:49.threat our society faces. This morning, I'm joined by Theresa May
:01:49. > :01:55.for her first major interview since that attack. The Government, we are
:01:55. > :02:03.told, is planning new powers to muzzle Islamic hate preachers. This
:02:03. > :02:07.they are revowing the strategy for -- reviewing the strategy for
:02:07. > :02:10.terrorism. The last Labour Government was often
:02:11. > :02:17.accused of trampling on civil liberties, with its anti-terror
:02:17. > :02:23.laws. I will be talking to Alan Johnson about that difficult balance
:02:23. > :02:28.between security and freedom and we will be taking a him back further to
:02:28. > :02:34.the story of his childhood on the streets of London. His fascinating
:02:35. > :02:44.new memoir tells the every day story of abandonment, poverty and violence
:02:45. > :02:48.
:02:48. > :02:55.and yet, how good can emerge from it. Way back then, London's stage, a
:02:55. > :03:03.play had its first performance. I have been speaking to Felicity
:03:03. > :03:13.Kendal about her television husband, the late Richard Briers. With some
:03:13. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:22.We will hear more from Noah And The Whale at the end of the programme.
:03:22. > :03:26.First the news from Briony MacKenzie.
:03:26. > :03:28.Good morning. Three more men have been arrested as the police
:03:28. > :03:31.investigation continues into the murder of soldier Lee Rigby in
:03:31. > :03:33.Woolwich. Counter-terrorism officers held three men in their 20s last
:03:33. > :03:36.night on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder. Meanwhile prayers
:03:36. > :03:46.will be said this morning for Drummer Rigby at churches in south
:03:46. > :03:48.
:03:48. > :03:52.London and in his home town of continues, more police activity in
:03:52. > :03:55.South-East London. Three more men have been arrested by
:03:55. > :04:00.counter-terrorism detectives backed up by specialist firearms officers.
:04:00. > :04:05.A Taser or electronic stun gun was used to apprehend two of the men.
:04:05. > :04:08.Residents heard the shots. Three gunshots. I don't think it was
:04:08. > :04:11.bullets, but it was either plastic, you know, it was really loud. I
:04:11. > :04:16.thought it was a bomb. That's how loud it was.
:04:16. > :04:23.Neither of the men needed hospital treatment. All three are being held
:04:23. > :04:27.on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder. The two main suspects remain
:04:27. > :04:33.under police guard in separate hospitals. They were shot in the
:04:33. > :04:36.legs by police after Drummer Lee Rigby was killed. The head of MI5 is
:04:36. > :04:40.due to handover a preliminary report next week into what the Security
:04:40. > :04:44.Services knew about the two men. People from across Woolwich have
:04:44. > :04:49.been laying floral tributes in memory of the soldier who was
:04:49. > :04:53.described by his family as a hero. A group of bikers, some ex-military,
:04:53. > :04:57.came to show their respects by driving past the barracks where he
:04:57. > :05:06.was based. The father of one, will be remembered in prayers today at a
:05:06. > :05:11.service at his local church in The French Defence Minister said a
:05:11. > :05:14.soldier stabbed while on patrol in Paris was targeted because he was in
:05:14. > :05:21.the Army. The soldier who is in a stable condition was stabbed in the
:05:21. > :05:29.neck by an unknown man who escaped. President Francois Hollande said all
:05:29. > :05:34.possibilities were being explored. Two men who were arrested on Friday
:05:34. > :05:44.after fighter jets ex-courted a plane to Stansted Airport have been
:05:44. > :05:48.charged with endangering arch airport. An RAF typhoon jet was
:05:48. > :05:52.scrambled and the pair were arrested after police boarded the plane. The
:05:52. > :05:56.men are both British and will appear in court tomorrow.
:05:56. > :06:00.Investigators are continuing to look at what caused the boat carrying
:06:00. > :06:04.dozens of day-trippers to hit a rock and start to sink off the coast of
:06:04. > :06:07.Pembrokeshire. A mayday was sent out and passengers were transferred to
:06:07. > :06:12.rescue vessels after the boat started taking a in water yesterday
:06:12. > :06:18.afternoon. An unfortunate start to the Bank
:06:18. > :06:22.Holiday weekend as the Lady Helen boat started talking on water and
:06:22. > :06:28.sinking. But things could have been worse for the 48 people on board.
:06:28. > :06:38.The moment the boat struck rocks was recorded by a passenger.
:06:38. > :06:41.
:06:41. > :06:48.The Lady Helen had been sailing to nearby Scomer Island. Passengers
:06:48. > :06:52.faced more drama. It did become apparent while they were towing it
:06:52. > :06:55.to a safe location that the vessel started to sink. They were
:06:55. > :07:02.transferred to other vessels and thankfully, all were transferred
:07:02. > :07:08.safely with no injuries which we were happy for. Boat trips here are
:07:08. > :07:12.popular. It is a wildlife sanctuary. The incident has been reported to
:07:12. > :07:22.the marine accident investigation branch as is standard procedure. It
:07:22. > :07:22.
:07:23. > :07:27.will decide next week if it will Thousands of runners have completed
:07:27. > :07:33.the Boston Marathon by running the mile they had to abandon when two
:07:33. > :07:39.bombs exploded last month. The athletes carried American and
:07:39. > :07:42.Chinese flags to remember the people killed in the attack. Over 260
:07:42. > :07:44.people were injured. One of the suspects died in a shootout with
:07:44. > :07:49.police and the other remains in hospital.
:07:49. > :07:53.That's all for now. I will be back with the headlines before 10am. Back
:07:53. > :07:55.to Nick. We are korming to terms with the
:07:55. > :07:59.terrorist a-- we are coming to terms with the terrorist attack on the
:07:59. > :08:04.streets of London. The Mail has that story that the Government are
:08:04. > :08:14.planning, they say, to gag hate clerics. The Observer has a response
:08:14. > :08:14.
:08:14. > :08:19.from a former Labour minister, Hazell Blears. The Sunday Times
:08:19. > :08:25.shots a -- shows a photograph of one of the suspects in Kenya and says
:08:25. > :08:31.that's a missed clue. The Sunday Telegraph, the same photo. The Sun
:08:31. > :08:39.focuses on the the fact that the Prime Minister is not managing this
:08:39. > :08:43.crisis at home. He is off on his holes and the Sunday Mir -- his
:08:43. > :08:47.holidays. Here to review the papers, Sarah Sands and Meera Syal. Good
:08:47. > :08:57.morning to both of you. Sarah, a challenge for Sunday
:08:57. > :09:02.papers. What more can they tell us that they -- we didn't know? What
:09:02. > :09:09.the State can do and the Communications Bill back on the
:09:09. > :09:16.agenda. There is a lot of banning and the piece that I thought was
:09:16. > :09:21.most insightful was in The Mail on Sunday. It is by a former radical.
:09:21. > :09:26.An Islamist radical who works for the excellent organisation and he
:09:26. > :09:30.talks about what is brain washing. It is what is happening to these
:09:30. > :09:37.young men. It is something the youth worker in London said is happening
:09:37. > :09:42.in London on the streets. These young men are being targeted and
:09:42. > :09:49.recruited. He says he was a 16-year-old boy, he was confused, he
:09:49. > :09:55.had an identity crisis. He felt at odds with the world and a long comes
:09:55. > :10:02.this recruiter and that's where you have to start. On the streets?On
:10:02. > :10:07.the streets and in the universities. Do you just ban those websites or do
:10:07. > :10:12.you argue? The Independent on Sunday has a story about these websites
:10:12. > :10:17.being targeted with counter ard arguments. It would be -- arguments.
:10:17. > :10:22.It would be great if you thought you could persuade these young men with
:10:22. > :10:26.a counter argument. Of there must be some way one can reason and engage.
:10:26. > :10:36.You have a piece on the impact on the #34us limb community in Britain?
:10:36. > :10:38.
:10:38. > :10:42.In is in today's Observer. It is a thoughtful and heartfelt piece by a
:10:42. > :10:46.leading Islamic commentator about how it has been for the liberal
:10:46. > :10:49.Muslim community of which there are many, many more than there are
:10:49. > :10:55.extremists. How they have been targeted. There is a huge rise in
:10:55. > :11:03.the number of attacks against Muslims at the moment simply walking
:11:03. > :11:12.along the street headscarves being pulled off to attacks and it is the
:11:12. > :11:19.voice of the mad few nuttersers that gets -- nutters they gets heard more
:11:19. > :11:24.than the liberal voices that are appalled by this and what to do.
:11:24. > :11:29.You are not a Muslim yourself. You are of Hindu origin and you had a
:11:29. > :11:35.Sikh parent. As a British Asian, do you feel nervous, that fear that
:11:35. > :11:39.many people feel on the streets, that they are being judged simply as
:11:39. > :11:45.an outsider still after all these years? That does happen. I mean, it
:11:45. > :11:55.is serbl to use the -- terrible to use the phrase "tarred with the same
:11:55. > :11:55.
:11:55. > :12:00.brush." Anyone with a brown face becomes one of them I is a shame --
:12:00. > :12:04.which is a shame. My parents have become British citizens and have
:12:04. > :12:09.given much life and wealth and support and love for this this
:12:09. > :12:12.country to find yourself suddenly suddenly on the end of that
:12:12. > :12:17.aggression and hostility is sad because any descent person know this
:12:17. > :12:26.is is a so wrong and the only way we are going to defeat it actually is
:12:26. > :12:30.if we pull together as a community and as descent minded people. An
:12:30. > :12:35.important point in this, she said, " The liberal Muslims feel they are
:12:35. > :12:40.being let down by the authorities because they need more support to
:12:40. > :12:45.fund these schemes that will stop extremism in its tracks." We will
:12:45. > :12:53.talk to the Home Secretary about this. Sarah, what else caught your
:12:53. > :12:58.eye? Well, the next, it is a hopeful one is you talked about the descent
:12:58. > :13:04.majority and this was a fantastic example. The Woolwich women who came
:13:04. > :13:10.to the aid, two who tended the body. As someone said it looked like a
:13:11. > :13:19.Greek tragedy of the women by the body and the person who took on the
:13:19. > :13:24.suspect. This is Dominic Lawson talking about the con tras, the
:13:24. > :13:28.rhetoric which is about wanting to bend people to the male will and
:13:29. > :13:35.then these women who demonstrated just empathy and consideration for
:13:35. > :13:41.others and I thought that the remark from the mother who was at the body,
:13:41. > :13:47.that she was asked why she endangered herself? She was asked by
:13:47. > :13:57.her son why she endangered herself? She said, " It could have been
:13:57. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:07.mine." Somehow every everything that was barbaric and and the abration
:14:07. > :14:11.becomes more powerful. It is instinct. It is core values.
:14:11. > :14:17.The contrast of the outpouring of human kindness in contrast to what
:14:17. > :14:25.the men had done. Exactly. The power of kindness. It reminded
:14:25. > :14:34.me of the famous quotation, an eye for an eye makes the whole world go
:14:34. > :14:38.blind. An eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind. Those women
:14:38. > :14:44.demonstrated... There was a lot happening in the news anyway that
:14:44. > :14:50.day when the attacks happened, I was reporting on the row about tax
:14:50. > :14:55.avoidance and Google. Yes, we are not going to let this go, are we?
:14:55. > :15:01.This makes everybody angry. This is page 15 on the Sunday Times. US
:15:01. > :15:04.giants cost Britain �1 billion a year in lost tax. It is the same
:15:04. > :15:09.story you were reporting on, but more detail. More companies have
:15:09. > :15:19.been diverting all their revenue through Ireland to avoids pay paying
:15:19. > :15:20.
:15:20. > :15:24.tax. Del, Apple. This was started by the Google whistle-blower. I can't
:15:24. > :15:28.believe no one has done anything. I know three or four people who are in
:15:28. > :15:32.dire straights because their disability bens fits have been cut,
:15:32. > :15:42.they are on the breadline and they have massive corporations, going on
:15:42. > :15:44.
:15:44. > :15:49.their way with nobody doing anything. It feels like politicians
:15:49. > :15:59.of all parties are now beginning to say we have to be seen to stand up
:15:59. > :16:03.to the multinational companies. There is an argument that these
:16:03. > :16:07.corporations... It is the governments that make these laws and
:16:08. > :16:13.if you lower corporation tax here people would come from Ireland.
:16:13. > :16:23.have got a bit more politics as well. The other argument I forgot
:16:23. > :16:24.
:16:24. > :16:30.about completely was the swivel-eyed loons, but now it is the UKIP
:16:30. > :16:35.founder exchanging insults. The whole appeal is that Nigel Farage is
:16:35. > :16:41.the common man, the one with common sense, so it is interesting the
:16:41. > :16:46.founder, who described himself as an intellectual, saying the party has
:16:47. > :16:53.become so stupid and racist and he cannot bear it either. UKIP does
:16:53. > :16:58.seem to be the centre of all argument, most of the time. There is
:16:58. > :17:04.an important anniversary this week, the suffragettes. Yes, and it is
:17:04. > :17:14.being marked by what sounds like a fantastic documentary, which is on
:17:14. > :17:17.
:17:17. > :17:22.tonight I believe. What is it about? It is an analysis, everyone
:17:22. > :17:26.remembers Emily Davidson who was killed when she threw herself under
:17:26. > :17:32.the racehorse in 1913. Restored footage has come to light of the
:17:32. > :17:37.actual incident. Emily has been portrayed sometimes as a sad
:17:37. > :17:43.fantasist with a death wish, but this analysis of the footage shows
:17:43. > :17:50.that she was trying to pin a suffragette ribbon onto the horse
:17:50. > :17:59.and not trying to kill herself. She had later holiday plans so it looks
:17:59. > :18:02.as if... If she had not died, would that act have ever been delivered?
:18:03. > :18:12.was interested because the presenter is Clare balding, so was she on the
:18:12. > :18:22.side of the horse? I don't want to let you go before we have a word
:18:22. > :18:24.
:18:24. > :18:31.about Bollywood meets Carmen, so let's have a look at it.
:18:31. > :18:40.We are going to see this in a Bradford Park? Yes, it is an
:18:40. > :18:45.extraordinary event which is basically a Bollywood version of
:18:45. > :18:51.Carmen. The plot is the same, a love triangle, but it is set with a
:18:51. > :18:56.waitress in a cafe. I play the innkeeper, who in the original story
:18:56. > :19:06.was a man and now is a woman who witnesses the whole tragedy and it
:19:06. > :19:10.
:19:10. > :19:20.is a synthesis of cultures. It is the Carmen Opper, with a mash up of
:19:20. > :19:20.
:19:20. > :19:27.Bollywood contemporary style. -- Carmen Opper. We are expecting a
:19:27. > :19:36.minimum of 3000, possibly 5000 people turning up. It is broadcast
:19:36. > :19:41.live on BBC Three. I remember a few years ago going to Bollywood and
:19:41. > :19:51.virtually no one knew what Bollywood was at that time. It is amazing how
:19:51. > :19:53.
:19:53. > :19:59.it is -- has taken off. Yes, it will always be loved and it will be a
:19:59. > :20:06.great event so I am looking forward to it. It is another bank holiday
:20:06. > :20:15.weekend, and can you believe it, it is not quite as chilly as you might
:20:15. > :20:19.have expected. Over to the weather studio Who would believe it, another
:20:19. > :20:24.day of blue skies overhead and that will continue through the day. Good
:20:24. > :20:29.sunny spells through the country, and feeling warmer than yesterday.
:20:29. > :20:34.Even where we have more cloud than yesterday, it will break up at times
:20:34. > :20:44.to allow some sunny spells through. Low cloud and western coasts will
:20:44. > :20:55.
:20:55. > :21:00.gradually clear, and the many -- many will get some sunshine. Strong
:21:00. > :21:10.to gale force winds on Monday with rain around, but brightening up in
:21:10. > :21:15.
:21:15. > :21:20.Northern Ireland and a rich -- an inch of rain possible. Most of the
:21:20. > :21:24.east will stay drive-through bank holiday Monday, temperatures up to
:21:24. > :21:34.18 degrees. While we will see some patchy rain work eastwards through
:21:34. > :21:35.
:21:35. > :21:45.the evening, many will stay dry impression your bank holiday will be
:21:45. > :21:49.
:21:49. > :21:51.fine. They're all the same. That's the most heard complaint about
:21:51. > :21:54.politicians. People wouldn't say that if they knew the remarkable
:21:54. > :21:58.story of the former Labour Cabinet minister, Alan Johnson. He grew up
:21:58. > :22:01.in west London's Notting Hill, at a time when the area was synonymous
:22:01. > :22:04.with slum landlords and race riots. His first home was condemned as
:22:04. > :22:09.unfit for habitation. After his mother died tragically young, he was
:22:09. > :22:14.brought up his older sister though she was just a teenager herself. We
:22:14. > :22:19.can now all read that story in Alan Johnson's new memoir, This Boy. We
:22:19. > :22:24.will talk about that in a few minutes, but first, as a former Home
:22:24. > :22:28.Secretary, I want to get your thoughts about this week. When you
:22:28. > :22:34.heard about the attack, were you taken back to the days when you must
:22:34. > :22:39.have seen security files about the threat of extremism and the fears
:22:39. > :22:45.you had? Yes, and I shared everybody's horror of course, but
:22:45. > :22:51.having been in that position myself, I knew the importance of piecing
:22:51. > :22:56.together the whole story of this and not acting prematurely. One thing is
:22:56. > :23:02.for sure, it might be nice whether this bank holiday but to Reza and
:23:02. > :23:08.her colleagues will not be getting any rest. -- to reason may. It is a
:23:08. > :23:13.huge pressure on the Home Secretary to make sure those people are
:23:13. > :23:19.brought to justice. The fear of the lone wolves, if that is what they
:23:19. > :23:23.turned out to be, were you aware that even if you were very
:23:23. > :23:30.successful in disrupting plots the threat would come through another
:23:30. > :23:33.way? Yes, and the so-called skins, people who are new to this. More
:23:33. > :23:38.people have been arrested and it looks like it is wider than some
:23:38. > :23:44.lone wolves that is the importance of piecing it together. I heard Eric
:23:44. > :23:49.Pickles on the radio the other day, and I think he is right. In a free
:23:49. > :23:56.democracy there are limits to the kind of curtailment you can put on
:23:56. > :24:04.people 's activities. It is easier in China for instance. You must have
:24:04. > :24:12.constituents coming up to you saying why don't they just stop the
:24:12. > :24:18.Internet and so on. It is harder than that. Yes, and it is getting
:24:18. > :24:22.the balance right. The organisation this man was a member of I did
:24:22. > :24:26.prescribe, but when you ban an organisation in a democracy, you
:24:26. > :24:36.have to go through a rigid process and be sure it is not
:24:36. > :24:38.
:24:38. > :24:48.counter-productive. When David Cameron got into office and saw the
:24:48. > :24:54.
:24:54. > :24:57.information, they still remain three years later unproscribed. You could
:24:57. > :25:03.end up in a situation where you drive people underground and you
:25:03. > :25:06.don't get the intelligence. government have said they are
:25:06. > :25:10.reviewing this so-called preventive strategy. Hazel blears is in the
:25:10. > :25:14.Observer this morning saying the government have cut their budgets
:25:14. > :25:20.and now they are beginning to focus only on the extremists rather than
:25:20. > :25:30.funding the moderates to help them grow. Do you fear that mistake is
:25:30. > :25:31.
:25:32. > :25:35.being made? Yes, it was very early days of Prevent, but the idea was, a
:25:35. > :25:43.very important book by Ed Hussain called the Islamists, talking about
:25:43. > :25:47.how he was radicalised in his community. Part of the strategy was
:25:47. > :25:56.to get into those communities and make sure that young people who were
:25:56. > :26:01.susceptible to this kind of radicalisation had the arguments.
:26:01. > :26:07.That cannot come from politicians, it has to come from people in the
:26:07. > :26:12.community. Would you be saying think again to the government? I don't
:26:12. > :26:16.want to make a political point of this but I think they will be
:26:16. > :26:22.thinking again anyway. Theresa May will be fighting hard for her budget
:26:22. > :26:28.in the Home Office. Their job is to protect people and that is the last
:26:28. > :26:34.area you should be looking for savings. There is one area where
:26:34. > :26:42.people have said think again, your former colleague secretary John Reid
:26:42. > :26:48.said to think again about the Data Communications Bill, are you one of
:26:48. > :26:52.those who believe it was a mistake to abandon this? I am passionately
:26:52. > :26:59.one of those people. For six years at least we have known that as
:26:59. > :27:04.telecommunications has moved on, the security forces who need to know,
:27:04. > :27:10.not to open these communications, that is a different process, it is
:27:10. > :27:16.to know who has been contacting home. I am absolutely with the Home
:27:16. > :27:23.Secretary because I feel absolutely confident she will be fighting for
:27:23. > :27:28.this. We need to get this on the statute book before the next general
:27:28. > :27:36.election and I think it is crucial. It is a resignation issue for the
:27:36. > :27:39.Home Secretary if the Cabinet do not support her. We originally asked you
:27:39. > :27:47.to come here because of this fascinating book, and the people who
:27:47. > :27:50.don't know, this is the story of an extraordinarily tough upbringing. As
:27:50. > :27:57.people see the photographs of view on the streets of Notting Hill, you
:27:57. > :28:05.look sweet enough kid, if you don't me saying. It wasn't like Notting
:28:05. > :28:11.Hill these days, was it? Know, and there were a lot of people in the
:28:11. > :28:20.same circumstances I was, but the house was condemned in the 1920s as
:28:20. > :28:26.unfit for habitation and we were still have the -- living there in
:28:26. > :28:32.the 1950s. It was squalid and typically 16 people to a house, one
:28:32. > :28:39.or two families on every floor, no hot water of course, no indoor
:28:39. > :28:46.toilets, no electricity. When you wanted to get coal to stay warm,
:28:47. > :28:51.what did you do? My mum used to take us round to the horse and cart
:28:51. > :28:57.delivering coal to the more prosperous areas, and we used to
:28:57. > :29:02.pick up bits of coal. She used to order us Mac to spit on it, she had
:29:02. > :29:10.these funny methods, and that was a way of pillaging it rather than
:29:10. > :29:16.buying it. It had fallen on the ground so it was therefore anybody.
:29:16. > :29:23.The most poignant story I think is Christmas lunch when your mother was
:29:23. > :29:29.ill in hospital. This is a story of two amazing women who have to --
:29:29. > :29:34.happen to be my mother and my sister. She had paid tuppence for a
:29:34. > :29:39.Christmas hamper and had left some shilling pieces to put in the gas
:29:39. > :29:43.while she was in hospital. My father didn't come home so my sister
:29:43. > :29:48.decided to cook the Christmas dinner. She was tend by the way. She
:29:48. > :29:53.put the chicken in the oven without realising you should take the
:29:53. > :29:58.plastic wrapper off and there was a terrible smell but she tried!
:29:58. > :30:02.don't want to leave you without asking a little bit about current
:30:03. > :30:12.politics. Do you ever worry that your background made you
:30:12. > :30:15.underestimate yourself? You once famously said on Desert Island discs
:30:15. > :30:20.you were not fit to be Prime Minister. A lot of your colleagues
:30:20. > :30:25.thought you were and want to see you back. Many people who go to
:30:25. > :30:30.university get the confidence and trained mind, that might have been a
:30:30. > :30:35.part of it. Shirley Williams famously said she felt unable,
:30:35. > :30:42.because she was a woman, to have the confidence to do that. Could you
:30:42. > :30:48.come back to the front bench now? could do, but I did that for 11
:30:48. > :30:55.years and it was a lot of fun while it lasted. What about the quick tip
:30:55. > :31:01.to those who succeeded you? You have said it is time for policy. We know
:31:01. > :31:06.the election is in 2015 but you do need, as you move closer to that
:31:06. > :31:10.area, and it is surprising how much policy is out there. What about
:31:10. > :31:17.spending in particular as being a real worry that Labour's economic
:31:17. > :31:22.message has not got across? Well, I think we are spelling it out. The
:31:22. > :31:25.IMF were saying the same thing as I was saying as Shadow Chancellor, if
:31:25. > :31:29.you overdo the austerity be, you choke off growth and you lead to a
:31:29. > :31:33.greater problem with the economy. Alan Johnson, the book is a great
:31:33. > :31:38.read. Thank you very much indeed. Now, Felicity Kendal has been one of
:31:38. > :31:43.mower most popular TV actresses since she appeared all those decades
:31:43. > :31:47.ago in the Good Life, but the stage is her first love. She began acting
:31:47. > :31:55.as a child in her parents' touring theatre company in India and she is
:31:55. > :31:58.starring in a revival of Relatively Speaking. The play is a comedy of
:31:58. > :32:02.middle-class manners and mistaken identities. With the characters
:32:02. > :32:08.speaking at cross purposes for most of the time to the joy of the
:32:08. > :32:13.audience. It was daring for its era, featuring adultery and a young
:32:13. > :32:18.couple living in sin. I talked to Felicity Kendal in her dressing room
:32:18. > :32:23.and I began by asking her if the theatre is where she really feels
:32:23. > :32:28.most at home? It is where I feel most at home. It is more and more, I
:32:28. > :32:32.make a choice between something in front of a camera, hello there, and
:32:32. > :32:37.the stage. Especially a play like this which is a comedy, it is short,
:32:37. > :32:42.it is funny, but it really is, it takes an incredible amount of
:32:42. > :32:47.energy. Hopefully it doesn't look as if it is hard work! But it is. And
:32:47. > :32:55.it is really comedy is actually probably harder than tragedy, I
:32:55. > :33:00.think, to do. I love doing it and that's why I have come back.
:33:00. > :33:04.It is hard harder than us trying to summarise the plot? Well, it would
:33:04. > :33:10.be a shame because the plot is not that interesting. It is how he deals
:33:10. > :33:14.with the situation. There are two couples, a younger couple and an
:33:14. > :33:19.older couple. It is about love in infidelity and then a marriage
:33:19. > :33:23.that's not working and these four people meet in the countryside and
:33:23. > :33:28.they all make a terrible mistake about who each other is having an
:33:28. > :33:32.affair with or isn't. It is just divine, but it is impossible to
:33:32. > :33:38.describe it in two or three minutes because it is a plot that you think
:33:38. > :33:45.you know where you are going and then it goes somewhere else.
:33:45. > :33:54.You are Ms Whitaker, you work for my husband. I used to.
:33:54. > :34:04.I am sorry, I got the impression from my husband there that you were
:34:04. > :34:04.
:34:04. > :34:10.much older. I could have sworn that he said you were nearing retirement.
:34:10. > :34:15.Do you get a sense that the huge release that the audience get, they
:34:15. > :34:20.love every minute. Is it what people need in an era like this? Times are
:34:20. > :34:28.desperate and sad and upsetting and hard when it is economical, as well,
:34:29. > :34:32.the problems that we haves. It is wonderful to have a laugh and
:34:32. > :34:35.identify with other people with problems that are worse and less
:34:35. > :34:41.worse than yours and laugh at them. It is a joy.
:34:41. > :34:47.Was there a little added poignancy for you? The first time this was
:34:48. > :34:51.performed it was Richard Briers? was as far as I knew, you know, I
:34:51. > :35:00.didn't know he was ill. He was alive. I was hoping he might come
:35:00. > :35:06.and see it. But sadly in the break between he died. So I don't know. It
:35:06. > :35:12.is the continuity. I feel very pleased to be in this play
:35:13. > :35:17.continuing a little bit of Richard. You were away at the time and we
:35:17. > :35:20.didn't hear from you. Did you feel there were things you wanted to say?
:35:20. > :35:24.I was very, very glad that I wasn't here because I certainly would have
:35:24. > :35:28.said, I would have responded to anybody who asked me to say anything
:35:28. > :35:34.about him, but I was really glad that I didn't have to. And now?Now,
:35:34. > :35:40.I just say he was adorable, wonderful, I was very, very lucky
:35:40. > :35:46.girl to have worked with him early on and to have learnt so much from
:35:46. > :35:49.him. The stuff I'm doing now, it goes back to what he told me about
:35:49. > :35:56.comedy. What is it team work? It is team
:35:56. > :36:00.work. It is like playing ping-pong. You back the -- the bat the ball
:36:00. > :36:06.back to the next person and you cannot drop it.
:36:06. > :36:14.Tired love? J should I be tired? I went to bed with the sun. I got up
:36:14. > :36:23.with the sun. It wasn't a total success, was it? I realised that
:36:23. > :36:30.after about the fifth game of chess. What time was that? 12When did we
:36:30. > :36:34.finish listing our top 20 films? About ten.
:36:34. > :36:39.When you have got so many TV channels, you can never escape your
:36:39. > :36:46.early work. The idea of my old performances on the television, the
:36:46. > :36:55.idea of it being shown? The stuff I did 20 years ago, I p would be
:36:55. > :37:00.horrified to see again. I am used to seeing little bits of Barbara Good.
:37:00. > :37:03.I love it. I'm pleased to see it every now and again. It is like a
:37:03. > :37:13.little touch stone, that's still there. Well done.
:37:13. > :37:18.It doesn't feel like a trap? No. It is very gratifying.
:37:18. > :37:28.Now, if the dressing room were bigger, I would be tempted to say,
:37:28. > :37:32.
:37:32. > :37:36.can you do the splits again after Still dancing? No, dancing. I do a
:37:36. > :37:42.lot of exercise. What that instilled in me is something I already had,
:37:42. > :37:46.but it sort of doubled my conviction that for me, it is a personal thing.
:37:46. > :37:50.I really, really need to do a lot of exercise to keep happy. I do
:37:50. > :37:55.probably more than I did before and I did a lot before.
:37:55. > :37:58.But you can look back at that tape and think, " I can do the splits."
:37:58. > :38:05.Yes. Felicity Kendal, thank you very much
:38:05. > :38:10.indeed. Thank you. Still got the old magic.
:38:10. > :38:17.Felicity Kendal there. Now back to the story which continues to
:38:17. > :38:20.dominate the news, the murder of course, of it Drummer Lee Rigby --
:38:20. > :38:24.of Drummer Lee Rigby. I am joined by Theresa May. The news thatle people
:38:25. > :38:29.would have woken up to is the news of further arrests. Now, obviously
:38:29. > :38:34.you can't talk about an ongoing police investigation, but it will
:38:34. > :38:42.make some nervous, this maybe something wider than that. Can you
:38:42. > :38:47.tell us anything? First of all, Nick or thoughts must be with Lee Rigby's
:38:47. > :38:51.family ads friends. Our thoughts must be -- and friends. Our thoughts
:38:51. > :38:54.must be with those who have lost a loved one. There were arrests last
:38:54. > :38:59.night. The police and the Security Services are working hard in
:38:59. > :39:04.relation to this case. We now have 500 officers and others who are
:39:04. > :39:09.working on the case including some officers who have been brought
:39:09. > :39:14.through from counter-terrorism units from elsewhere the in -- in the
:39:14. > :39:20.country. We can't astumm this is a lone wolf
:39:20. > :39:26.as it is called? All the indications would would be for that. This is an
:39:26. > :39:30.John going investigation. The police and the -- ongoing investigation.
:39:30. > :39:33.The police and the Security Services have to do their job. I can't go
:39:33. > :39:37.into details of the case. It is an ongoing investigation.
:39:37. > :39:42.The questions are being asked of how the Security Services did their job?
:39:42. > :39:46.We are going to get a report into that soon. But it does look, doesn't
:39:46. > :39:51.it, as if these guys were not just on the radar of the Security
:39:51. > :39:55.Services, but had been in contact with them? Well, again, I can't
:39:55. > :39:59.comment on the details of this case, but in a general sense, the Security
:39:59. > :40:03.Service is in an intelligence agency and their job is about gathering
:40:03. > :40:07.intelligence about those who might seek to do us harm. They do that
:40:07. > :40:09.from a variety of sources and they will do that in a variety of ways
:40:09. > :40:16.and yes, they will approach individuals from time to time. I see
:40:16. > :40:19.the work of the Security Service on a day-to-day basis and I see the ex
:40:19. > :40:23.excellent work which the men and women of the Security Service do do
:40:23. > :40:27.to keep us safe. Since the beginning of the year, we have seen three
:40:27. > :40:32.counter-terrorism trials in which 18 people have been found guilty and
:40:32. > :40:36.sentenced to #150z years. Excellent work d 150 years.
:40:36. > :40:40.Excellent work, but it is clear these two suspects had contact. Does
:40:40. > :40:45.this make you worry and make them worry that mistakes were made?
:40:45. > :40:50.say, the Security Service and the police working today do excellent
:40:50. > :40:53.work in terms of dealing with, disrupting plots as we have seen...
:40:53. > :40:56.Is there anxiety about things that went wrong? Of course, what we have
:40:56. > :41:00.in this country is the right procedures which say that when
:41:00. > :41:06.things like this happen, we do need to look at whether there were
:41:06. > :41:09.lessons to be learnt. As with in this case where the police shot the
:41:09. > :41:17.two individuals, the Independent Police Complaints Commission moves
:41:17. > :41:20.in and looks at that as pect of the case and so the Intelligence and
:41:20. > :41:22.Security Committee covering members from the House of Lords and the
:41:22. > :41:26.House of Commons will review what happened from the point of view of
:41:26. > :41:32.the Security Service. How soon will we get that report and
:41:32. > :41:37.will we, the wider public, get to learn if and it is only a an if
:41:37. > :41:41.mistakes were made? Well, the IFC report won't happen immediately,
:41:41. > :41:45.they look back at the operation and they will look back at the case. We
:41:45. > :41:52.strengthen their powers to do that in the justice and security Act
:41:52. > :41:56.passed a few months ago and so they will not interfere in operational
:41:56. > :42:00.decisions and it is right that we let the Security Service and the
:42:00. > :42:03.police get on with that job. In your gut, do you think you know
:42:03. > :42:08.the answer to the question about whether mistakes were made? As I
:42:08. > :42:12.say, I see the excellent work that the Security Service do do, but we
:42:12. > :42:16.will look to see if there are lessons that need to be learned.
:42:16. > :42:21.How many people like this might there be? Sometimes, the talk has
:42:21. > :42:24.been of 2,000 or 3,000 people of people with extreme views who could
:42:24. > :42:29.be a danger. Overnight, I see that Downing Street were briefing about
:42:30. > :42:33.this new or revision of the existing anti-extremist strategy talked about
:42:33. > :42:36.a few hundred. What's the scale that you think that you are dealing with
:42:36. > :42:41.it? Well, you have people at different points on what could be a
:42:41. > :42:45.path to violent, extremism. The prevent programme and it is right
:42:45. > :42:49.that the Government has a programme which is countering radicalisation
:42:49. > :42:54.which is countering the ideology that leads to radicalisation, but is
:42:54. > :42:59.working with individuals and working in institutions like prisons where
:42:59. > :43:06.ladicalisation might take place and that pre-- radicalisation might take
:43:06. > :43:10.place and that programme, I am excludeing more extremist preachers.
:43:10. > :43:15.We have more high quality programmes working with more people and we have
:43:15. > :43:19.introduced a new programme which isn't for those who are at danger of
:43:19. > :43:23.radicalisation, but those who are perhaps further out and over and
:43:23. > :43:26.around 2,000 people have been worked with in just the last year in that
:43:26. > :43:30.particular part of the programme and we are doing more work with more
:43:30. > :43:35.prisoners in more prisons. The answer to whether it is hundreds
:43:35. > :43:39.or thousands, you regard it as thousands? Potentially.
:43:39. > :43:44.You talk about the prevent of the Prevent programme. We are told there
:43:44. > :43:48.is a new task force that we learned about last night. People will wonder
:43:48. > :43:52.is it really necessary to have new laws in order to stop people
:43:52. > :43:56.standing on the streets of Britain calling for the beheading of
:43:56. > :43:59.soldiers? Is it just that the laws are not implemented? Well, the
:43:59. > :44:03.taskforce which is going to be able to look across the whole of
:44:03. > :44:07.Government. I talked to you about the Prevent programme in the Home
:44:07. > :44:10.Office. We need to look across institutions like universities,
:44:10. > :44:16.whether there is more work we can be doing in prisons, but yes, we need
:44:16. > :44:20.to look at the pour we ares. We -- powers. We need to look at the laws.
:44:20. > :44:30.We need to look at whether we need to have banning orders to ban
:44:30. > :44:32.
:44:32. > :44:39.organisations that don't -- ban banning orders. These are issues
:44:39. > :44:43.that are being raised. You are talking about internet, hate
:44:43. > :44:46.preaching or what is shown on television? What would you like the
:44:46. > :44:51.communitications regulator to do? One of the issues is whether we have
:44:51. > :44:58.got the right processes, the right rules in place in relation who what
:44:58. > :45:02.is beamed into people's homes. Mrs Thatcher used to talk about the
:45:02. > :45:07.oxygen of publicity. Is your fear as Home Secretary, that the
:45:07. > :45:12.broadcasters, the internet providers provided hate if you like, the
:45:12. > :45:18.oxygen of publicity. People are able to watch things flew the internet
:45:18. > :45:21.which can -- through the internet which can lead to radicalisation, we
:45:21. > :45:28.have referral unit. Which members of the public and organisations are
:45:28. > :45:35.able to refer into there unit when they have got concern about what is
:45:35. > :45:40.broadcast. And a considerable number, something like 5,000, 700
:45:40. > :45:45.separate spesz have been taken down off of the -- pieces have been taken
:45:45. > :45:47.down off of theent net. We need to see if there are additional sfeps we
:45:47. > :45:54.should be taking a. Do you include the television
:45:54. > :46:03.companies in that? Did you shout at your television when you saw some of
:46:03. > :46:09.this on the screens? I think Choudhary has disgusting views.
:46:09. > :46:19.There were many people who did indeed say what is the BBC doing
:46:19. > :46:19.
:46:19. > :46:23.interviewing him? People may say to you, why doesn't the law get to
:46:23. > :46:33.grips with people like that? Are you suggesting in future there may be
:46:33. > :46:38.laws that allow you to get a grip on hate preachers in general? This is
:46:38. > :46:43.part of the work the task force the Prime Minister has set up is doing.
:46:43. > :46:50.It is saying what are the powers we have at the moment? What new powers
:46:50. > :46:53.might we need in the future? Let's look at this situation. Yes, the
:46:53. > :47:01.government has improved the prevent programme, and we are supporting
:47:01. > :47:11.more people in making sure they don't get radicalised. But your
:47:11. > :47:15.
:47:15. > :47:20.budget has been cut and you are not now dealing with people who may be
:47:20. > :47:24.radicalised. We do want to look at extremism, as well as violent
:47:24. > :47:31.extremism, and there is an aspect of this about integration but we have
:47:31. > :47:39.taken that away from the Prevent programme. Otherwise it would have
:47:39. > :47:43.just been about spying on people. Sir Malcolm Rifkind said no cuts to
:47:43. > :47:50.the budget of the intelligence service. We are short of time, so to
:47:50. > :47:54.be clear your fight cuts the intelligence service? We need to be
:47:54. > :48:00.clear that the intelligence services, in the last spending
:48:00. > :48:08.review we've made sure that that policing was not treated the same as
:48:08. > :48:12.everyday policing. Alan Johnson has just said that if he were Home
:48:12. > :48:15.Secretary and he couldn't get the data Communications Bill through the
:48:15. > :48:23.coalition, that would be a resignation issue. Nick Clegg has
:48:23. > :48:33.blocked it, is it a resignation issue for you? Access to
:48:33. > :48:35.
:48:35. > :48:40.communications data is important and this is a very important thing we
:48:40. > :48:44.need to ensure we are giving our law enforcement agencies and
:48:44. > :48:51.intelligence agencies, access to the tools they need to fight crime,
:48:51. > :48:56.paedophiles and terrorists. You have had the argument. There was a
:48:56. > :49:03.reference in the Queens speech to work that needs to be done in this
:49:03. > :49:08.area and we are working through what action will be taken. People will
:49:08. > :49:12.read that as a watered-down form of it, but Nick Clegg blocked it so
:49:12. > :49:17.people will be asking what is the point of a Home Secretary if she
:49:17. > :49:21.cannot implement the laws she believes are necessary?
:49:22. > :49:26.government has too implement the laws, we are in a coalition
:49:26. > :49:33.government. We are now working through across the government what
:49:33. > :49:38.action we can take, but I am clear the intelligence agencies need
:49:38. > :49:46.access to communications data. Before the next election, there is
:49:46. > :49:51.another go at this? We are taking action in this area. Before this
:49:51. > :49:56.happened, politics subsumed Westminster, the politics of your
:49:56. > :50:03.party, the sense that things were going badly wrong, do you think we
:50:03. > :50:06.will see another female prime minister in your lifetime? We have a
:50:06. > :50:10.first-class Prime Minister at the moment who is leading the country
:50:10. > :50:20.through difficult times. The reason the coalition came together was to
:50:20. > :50:26.deal with the economy, left in that state by the previous government. I
:50:26. > :50:35.want to see David Cameron carrying on as prime minister. The last
:50:35. > :50:42.female prime minister we saw was a bit of a toughy, do you think we
:50:42. > :50:49.need another one to get a grip? think David Cameron is. Thank you
:50:49. > :50:59.for allowing me to tempt you, even though you resisted. Now the news
:50:59. > :51:12.
:51:12. > :51:15.headlines. Three more men have been arrested as the police investigation
:51:15. > :51:17.continues into the murder of soldier Lee Rigby in
:51:17. > :51:19.Woolwich.Counter-terrorism officers held three men in their twenties
:51:19. > :51:22.last night on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder.
:51:22. > :51:25.Speaking on this programme, the Home Secretary said This was a targeted
:51:25. > :51:30.lone wolf attack. She also said we need tighter scrutiny of the
:51:30. > :51:35.Internet. Alan Johnson also said on this programme that in free
:51:35. > :51:39.democracy it was difficult to get the balance right in scrutinising
:51:39. > :51:43.terrorist groups. He urged the Home Secretary to make sure the
:51:43. > :51:49.Communications data Bill is placed onto the statute book before the
:51:49. > :51:52.next general election. I think it is crucial, in fact I think it is a
:51:52. > :51:57.resignation issue for a Home Secretary if the Cabinet do not
:51:57. > :52:07.support her in this essential part of what the security services do.
:52:07. > :52:09.
:52:09. > :52:12.The next news on BBC One is at midday. Well Theresa May is still
:52:12. > :52:16.with me, and we've been joined again by Alan Johnson. And we also have
:52:16. > :52:18.Charlie Fink and Tom Hobden from the band Noah and the Whale. They've
:52:18. > :52:22.just released their fourth album, Heart Of Nowhere, and they're going
:52:22. > :52:31.to play a track from it in a moment. Welcome to you both. As I read up
:52:31. > :52:36.about this album, I was fascinated to hear, and people will look at you
:52:36. > :52:44.next to these oldies here, including me, this is a nostalgic album
:52:44. > :52:49.reflecting on the past. Yes, a coming of age album. Partly provoked
:52:49. > :52:54.by being on tour and then coming back and finding someone had got
:52:54. > :52:59.engaged while you were away. Yes, my friend will get a big head about
:52:59. > :53:05.this because he keeps coming up in interviews. He got engaged while we
:53:06. > :53:10.were on tour which prompted some nostalgia about the teenage years.
:53:10. > :53:16.People often think about how music is composed, it is a great mystery
:53:16. > :53:26.to those who cannot do it. Having a theme, do you find that is a huge
:53:26. > :53:29.
:53:29. > :53:32.help? Yes, especially being a violinist myself, it is an emotional
:53:32. > :53:40.instrument. We have a guitar here, which I am going to give to the
:53:40. > :53:49.former Home Secretary. You are a man who likes to strum a little. My rock
:53:49. > :53:56.career ended when my guitar that I bought on Ward Street got nicked.
:53:56. > :54:01.Someone heard on Desert Island discs that are used to play one like this
:54:01. > :54:11.and offered to sell me one, and this is probably the one that got
:54:11. > :54:11.
:54:11. > :54:19.nicked! They are looking at you in that way - I didn't know Alan
:54:19. > :54:25.Johnson had a rock career! We had better let you guys get ready. Good
:54:25. > :54:31.luck with that, and I know you will be at Glastonbury soon so it will be
:54:31. > :54:39.good to see you. Aside from the guitar, forgive me just briefly for
:54:39. > :54:43.the serious topic, I get a sense that you are from opposite parties
:54:43. > :54:50.but there is almost a trade union of Home Secretary is. Once you have
:54:50. > :54:55.seen the sort of things you did see and you now see, there is a kind of
:54:56. > :55:00.bond there? It is certainly true, and I see this from other Home
:55:00. > :55:04.Secretary's as well, but once you have been there and done that job
:55:04. > :55:08.and you understand the challenges we face across a variety of issues that
:55:08. > :55:16.government has to deal with in the Home Office, I think there is a
:55:16. > :55:21.bond, a greater understanding there. We read and sign of things we can
:55:21. > :55:26.never talk about, and we both appreciate the difficult work people
:55:27. > :55:30.in the security services do, and we are there only voice. They cannot
:55:31. > :55:35.speak for themselves. You tried to stiffen the backbone of the current
:55:35. > :55:40.Home Secretary by saying she might want to resign if she doesn't get
:55:40. > :55:44.her own way. She is in a coalition government, which is a bit
:55:44. > :55:48.different, but on a fundamental issue like this I believe the rest
:55:48. > :55:52.of the Cabinet, many of whom will not have access to the same
:55:52. > :55:57.information Theresa May has, will need to look at how to get the
:55:57. > :56:02.balance right on this, but at the end of the day that is your primary
:56:02. > :56:09.role and if the Home Secretary is telling you she needs this
:56:09. > :56:14.legislation, then... The key is to engage people with the argument?
:56:14. > :56:24.What is important is showing people how and why this information
:56:24. > :56:28.
:56:28. > :56:37.matters. Thank you. Next week, Eddie Mair will be presenting the show so
:56:37. > :56:47.do join him and his guests, including the singer Alison Moyet.
:56:47. > :56:49.
:56:49. > :56:52.Now, Noah and the Whale with your brother's room # Talked about
:56:52. > :56:56.how we'd break free, guess it came too soon. # We grew up, drifted
:56:56. > :57:03.apart, now you're getting married # While I'm waiting for my life to
:57:03. > :57:13.start. # Are you ready to make that call?
:57:13. > :57:13.
:57:13. > :57:23.# It's gonna be a lifetime. # It was only a few years ago # But
:57:23. > :57:38.
:57:38. > :57:42.was mostly you and me # We spent the whole summer there on his balcony.
:57:42. > :57:52.# We were young, that was then # And I can't help the feeling that it's
:57:52. > :57:56.
:57:56. > :58:03.never coming back again. # Are you ready to make that call? #
:58:03. > :58:13.It's gonna be a lifetime. # It was only a few years ago, # But
:58:13. > :58:20.
:58:20. > :58:24.it feels like a lifetime. # And we used to dream of what was