:00:35. > :00:40.What was it that made Nelson Mandela is so irresistible? There is an
:00:41. > :00:44.interesting account by his biographer, John Carlin, in the
:00:45. > :00:50.Sunday Times. Three things, he says. First, integrity, what you saw was
:00:51. > :00:53.what you got. Second, huge personal generosity, treating everybody with
:00:54. > :01:00.respect, everybody alike. And then charisma. Few of us have that, but
:01:01. > :01:04.integrity, generosity and respect is not a bad start. He says his
:01:05. > :01:09.speciality was simply killing apartheid with kindness. Days on,
:01:10. > :01:12.there is a lot more to say about the legacy of Nelson Mandela and the
:01:13. > :01:17.papers are already asking what is ahead for South Africa. Sir Trevor
:01:18. > :01:20.McDonald will help review today's papers, along with Gillian Tett,
:01:21. > :01:24.assistant editor of The Financial Times.
:01:25. > :01:28.We are going to start a lot closer to home. It has been a wild and
:01:29. > :01:33.freezing few days, with many people worried about fuel bills. How would
:01:34. > :01:37.you feel, how would you cope, if the power went off? Independent reports
:01:38. > :01:41.say that as a country we are close to the edge and could face blackouts
:01:42. > :01:45.next winter. To talk about keeping the lights on and the cost to
:01:46. > :01:52.families of doing so, I am joined by the boss of one of the big six
:01:53. > :01:57.energy companies, Vincent de Rivaz of EDF. The Chancellor has given the
:01:58. > :02:02.Autumn Statement and new information has come out about the scale of the
:02:03. > :02:10.cuts to come. Does Danny Alexander also want to see the shrink of the
:02:11. > :02:13.state to its 1943 size? Today is the official day of mourning in South
:02:14. > :02:17.Africa for the man once regarded as a terrorist in this country, who has
:02:18. > :02:26.now become a kind of global secular saint. But what is his legacy? Neil
:02:27. > :02:28.Kinnock was a stalwart of the anti-apartheid campaign and new
:02:29. > :02:32.Nelson Mandela. He will be talking about that and reflecting on British
:02:33. > :02:37.politics. Many musicians were prominent in the campaign for Nelson
:02:38. > :02:40.Mandela's release from prison, including Sting, who played a 70th
:02:41. > :02:50.birthday concert for him at Wembley. His latest album, the last
:02:51. > :02:51.ship is all about the decline of shipbuilding and what it meant for
:02:52. > :03:01.communities in the north-east. Listen to that accident. He's going
:03:02. > :03:03.to be telling us about that and performing a song from the album. A
:03:04. > :03:13.busy show. -- accident. MPs are set to receive an 11% pay
:03:14. > :03:16.rise when a Parliamentary watchdog publishes its final recommendations
:03:17. > :03:22.on salaries next week. The increase is due to come into effect after the
:03:23. > :03:26.2015 general election and will take MP page ?274,000 a year. David
:03:27. > :03:30.Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg have all criticised the planned
:03:31. > :03:36.rise, but will not be able to prevent it.
:03:37. > :03:39.For once, they are all saying the same thing. David Cameron, Nick
:03:40. > :03:45.Clegg and Ed Miliband all believe that this pay rise is too much.
:03:46. > :03:48.Nevertheless, MPs look set to get a double-digit increase when the
:03:49. > :03:50.Independent Parliamentary standards authority publishes its final
:03:51. > :03:59.recommendations on salaries later this week. Currently, an MP owns a
:04:00. > :04:06.basic salary of ?66,396. The suggestion is that goes up to
:04:07. > :04:10.?74,000, an increase of 11%, after the next election. However, they
:04:11. > :04:13.also recommend an increase in contributions that MPs make to their
:04:14. > :04:18.pensions and cuts in allowances for meals, taxes and other expenses.
:04:19. > :04:22.From 2015, MP wages would go up in line with average earnings. The
:04:23. > :04:26.Independent Parliamentary standards authority was established in the
:04:27. > :04:29.wake of the MP expenses scandal in 2009. It does not need the agreement
:04:30. > :04:36.of Parliament to bring in these changes. Although the party leaders
:04:37. > :04:42.disapprove, some MPs say the one-off boost is necessary because backbench
:04:43. > :04:46.MP pay have fallen behind. Nonetheless, at a time when the
:04:47. > :04:49.government is preaching austerity, most can see that such an increase
:04:50. > :04:55.is unlikely to prove popular with taxpayers.
:04:56. > :05:00.Airline passengers have been warned there could be further disruption
:05:01. > :05:03.today due to a technical fault at the National Air Traffic Service
:05:04. > :05:06.yesterday. Hundreds of flights were delayed or cancelled and NATS said
:05:07. > :05:12.there might be a knock-on effect for services. Airports across the UK say
:05:13. > :05:16.they are hoping to return to normal operations after the telephone
:05:17. > :05:20.glitch. In the last few years, and
:05:21. > :05:24.passengers have seen a major disruptions, whether it be the
:05:25. > :05:29.terror threats in 2006, striking British Airways staff in 2009 and,
:05:30. > :05:33.of course, the unpronounceable Icelandic volcano that closed entire
:05:34. > :05:36.European airspace. In that time, passengers have also acquired far
:05:37. > :05:40.more rights than ever before thanks to new EU rules. In general, the
:05:41. > :05:44.airline which you are booked to fly is fully responsible for you until
:05:45. > :05:47.you reach your final destination. The responsibility starts when you
:05:48. > :05:52.check in and compensation is triggered once your flight is
:05:53. > :05:55.delayed by more than two hours or cancelled. Crucially, the airline
:05:56. > :05:59.must pay for meals and overnight accommodation even if they are not
:06:00. > :06:03.to blame for the problem. That was the case this weekend. A technical
:06:04. > :06:07.mishap at the National air traffic managers in Swanwick caused
:06:08. > :06:11.yesterday's delays, not the airlines. But it is highly unusual
:06:12. > :06:17.for carriers to sue air-traffic controllers to recoup costs
:06:18. > :06:19.incurred. Although there is far more protection for disrupted passengers,
:06:20. > :06:24.it will not compensate for the mental anguish and lost time that is
:06:25. > :06:27.now part of air travel. People in South Africa are taking
:06:28. > :06:32.part in a day of prayer and reflection for late president Nelson
:06:33. > :06:37.Mandela. President Jacob Zuma will attend a church in Johannesburg with
:06:38. > :06:40.other multi-faith service planned throughout the day. A national
:06:41. > :06:44.memorial will be held on Tuesday ahead of a state funeral on Sunday
:06:45. > :06:48.the 15th of December. South Africans have been holding vigils since Mr
:06:49. > :06:53.Mandela died on Thursday at the age of 95.
:06:54. > :06:55.That is all from me. I will be back with the headlines just before ten
:06:56. > :07:00.o'clock. In a moment we will have the review
:07:01. > :07:04.of the papers. First, world leaders will soon be arriving in South
:07:05. > :07:08.Africa for the memorial events for Nelson Mandela, culminating in his
:07:09. > :07:17.funeral in seven days time. I joined from Soweto by James Robbins. You
:07:18. > :07:24.are standing outside a church, why? Here in the centre of Soweto, just
:07:25. > :07:27.one of hundreds of thousands of churches, places of worship, where
:07:28. > :07:33.South Africans are gathering on this national day of prayer and
:07:34. > :07:40.reflection. This is an extraordinary church, at the heart of the
:07:41. > :07:45.anti-apartheid struggle. People came here to seek refuge inside the
:07:46. > :07:48.church, where, notoriously, on one occasion, the South African security
:07:49. > :07:52.forces stormed inside and fired live rounds. The church was always a
:07:53. > :07:56.central to the anti-apartheid struggle. It is a highly appropriate
:07:57. > :08:03.base for a mass that is going on behind me to be held. You would hear
:08:04. > :08:08.the sentiments, the praise being sung, you will hear from across
:08:09. > :08:13.South Africa as many scattered communities come together to pay
:08:14. > :08:20.tribute. There will be waves of pride and sadness. What about the
:08:21. > :08:24.future? The ANC is not the party that Mandela foundered when he left
:08:25. > :08:29.prison. And Jacob Zuma, the current president, is no Mandela either?
:08:30. > :08:33.That is absolutely right in the view of many South Africans, I think.
:08:34. > :08:35.There is a disaffection within and outside the ANC. There are
:08:36. > :08:40.criticisms that it has abandoned Nelson Mandela's integrity and much
:08:41. > :08:46.of the party has descended into cronyism and even corruption. These
:08:47. > :08:49.are claims strenuously denied by President Zuma and those close to
:08:50. > :08:53.him. But it is clear that the ANC will not be able to live for ever on
:08:54. > :08:57.the legacy and example of Nelson Mandela. I think politics after this
:08:58. > :09:04.week, after this extraordinary week that we are beginning to see unfold,
:09:05. > :09:11.will be quite different. The front pages of the papers, lots
:09:12. > :09:16.of Mandela. There is a picture of Mandela when he first came to London
:09:17. > :09:19.in 1962 in The Observer. Their main story is about Blairites taking over
:09:20. > :09:24.the running of Labour's election campaign. It is presented as a
:09:25. > :09:28.sinister takeover by men dressed as the Spanish Inquisition. Alistair
:09:29. > :09:36.Campbell, all of that lot are back, they say. The Sunday Times, the main
:09:37. > :09:40.story, as you heard on the news, the 11% pay rise for MPs. Dammed if they
:09:41. > :09:45.do, dammed if they don't. It says Nigella Lawson has won in the court
:09:46. > :09:48.of public opinion. Good for Nigella, but that is the most fickle
:09:49. > :09:52.and dangerous court in the land, I would suggest. The Independent on
:09:53. > :09:59.Sunday has a picture of 11 is on the front page. The Mail on Sunday has a
:10:00. > :10:05.picture that, for once, will please David Cameron. Send them back home
:10:06. > :10:13.says the leading UKIP supporter, former Conservative. That is the
:10:14. > :10:21.kind of anti-UKIP story that he needs. The Sunday Express, they have
:10:22. > :10:30.sold their front page to Chanel number five. Your interview with
:10:31. > :10:36.Nelson Mandela was the first when he came out of prison? It was. To me,
:10:37. > :10:40.it remains an extraordinary moment. I could not believe that somebody
:10:41. > :10:47.who had spent and contribute long time away, could come out so
:10:48. > :10:52.absolutely focused on what he needed to do to move his country forward.
:10:53. > :10:56.With such a conspicuous lack of bitterness. You kept trying to get
:10:57. > :11:00.him to talk about the horrible time he had in prison and he would not do
:11:01. > :11:06.it? He refused. It must have been awful for you, I said. I was looking
:11:07. > :11:10.for a headline. Mandela tells McDonald, I was beaten every day.
:11:11. > :11:17.Not a word of it. All in the past, he said. I must concentrate on the
:11:18. > :11:20.future and my country's future. I failed. I also failed to get him to
:11:21. > :11:23.acknowledge there were any fundamental problems in coming to a
:11:24. > :11:28.political accommodation with the national party. We tend to forget
:11:29. > :11:31.that he was a very, very shrewd politician. He knew exactly what he
:11:32. > :11:37.wanted to say at any particular time. He didn't give too much away.
:11:38. > :11:41.He didn't give his hand away. He was very self disciplined. He had
:11:42. > :11:45.studied his opponents very closely. He spent a lot of time on Robben
:11:46. > :11:49.Island reading about their history and so on. He knew exactly how to
:11:50. > :11:55.approach them. He knew what he wanted and how to get it. The papers
:11:56. > :11:58.this morning are absolutely full of Mandela commentary. But I would pick
:11:59. > :12:03.up this particular piece from the Observer. A contrast, on the one
:12:04. > :12:09.side we have a wonderful piece by Desmond Tutu, echoing many of the
:12:10. > :12:14.points about the extraordinary skill with which Mandela not only captured
:12:15. > :12:17.or mastered political theatre, but also shows such incredible
:12:18. > :12:20.forgiveness, understanding and empathy. But that is the older
:12:21. > :12:24.generation. The other piece that is very important is on the other side
:12:25. > :12:29.of the page by a young South African columnist. He has pointed out that,
:12:30. > :12:32.notwithstanding Nelson Mandela's strawberry achievements, for the
:12:33. > :12:36.younger generation he is increasingly starting to fade off
:12:37. > :12:41.the radar screen. -- extraordinary achievements. The unspoken truth in
:12:42. > :12:46.South Africa is that he has been politically irrelevant since 1999.
:12:47. > :12:52.The problems remain very tragic, very big. Unfortunately, although
:12:53. > :12:57.you might think that has been a Hollywood ending for Mandela, he has
:12:58. > :13:02.not fixed the entire country, in spite of his achievements. The
:13:03. > :13:07.Observer has taken on this point about the post-Mandela world. I'm
:13:08. > :13:11.surprised so many people do this. I suppose it is obvious to do it at
:13:12. > :13:15.the death of Mandela. But the post Mandela world started a long, long
:13:16. > :13:19.time ago. He was determined to spend only a few years in the presidency.
:13:20. > :13:26.After that, there was Thabo Mbeki, Jacob Zuma, that world, what he
:13:27. > :13:30.symbolised, has gone. The Observer has this wonderful memory of the
:13:31. > :13:38.moment in 1995, when the Rugby World Cup, which at Africa incidentally
:13:39. > :13:44.one, a nice Hollywood ending, a wonderful thing of putting on the
:13:45. > :13:50.T-shirt. The shirt of the supremacist, white South Africa? He
:13:51. > :13:55.was great at making these grand gestures. Not grand speeches, but
:13:56. > :13:59.very important, symbolic... He was very good at shirts. I loved the
:14:00. > :14:05.story when he went to Buckingham Palace, he said, to the rest of the
:14:06. > :14:14.ANC leadership, they said, white tie, tails. All of these former
:14:15. > :14:19.guerillas turned up like that. And he turned up in his traditional
:14:20. > :14:23.dress, laughing at them. If you want a cause for optimism in this cynical
:14:24. > :14:27.age, another piece from Andrew Lansley, again, in the Observer,
:14:28. > :14:31.this points out, notwithstanding that you had so much political
:14:32. > :14:35.theatre and strategy, at the end of the day you had a man that managed
:14:36. > :14:41.to put a sense of good back into politics. It's so easy to be very
:14:42. > :14:44.cynical about the political process. Sometimes, good can come out of
:14:45. > :14:50.politics and he showed that. Let's turn to Trevor. You are talking
:14:51. > :14:54.about other issues. We're talking about good in life, also what goes
:14:55. > :14:58.wrong this morning. Travel glitches. We saw on the news that all of these
:14:59. > :15:04.people have been struggling in airports. A computer glitch, it
:15:05. > :15:07.says? I find it quite extraordinary. Here we are, in this modern
:15:08. > :15:12.technological world, and we are led to believe that all of these will be
:15:13. > :15:16.taken care of. All we have to do is get our iPhone working properly, our
:15:17. > :15:21.apps, and in fact these things provide a great deal of trouble. One
:15:22. > :15:25.glitch in the system and people are stranded, hundreds of holiday-makers
:15:26. > :15:29.stranded for hours and hours. What is interesting about that, we have
:15:30. > :15:33.had the same problem with the NHS, with computers. Iain Duncan Smith's
:15:34. > :15:38.department has had problems in the same area. Across the Atlantic,
:15:39. > :15:42.Barack Obama's health-care plan, the plank of his second term of his
:15:43. > :15:50.presidency, it all goes wrong because people get onto the system.
:15:51. > :15:52.This is in America, this is not Rwanda. One of the most
:15:53. > :15:58.technologically advanced countries in the world. A key political plank
:15:59. > :16:01.of his goes awry. The more sophisticated the technology, the
:16:02. > :16:09.more vulnerable we are, rather than the freer we are?
:16:10. > :16:18.Turning to the British economy. For those rich foreigners who can
:16:19. > :16:22.get through the travel chaos, this is on property prices in the
:16:23. > :16:28.capital. The figures are extraordinary, a 10% increase in
:16:29. > :16:35.prices over the last year. $1.5 million average houses are
:16:36. > :16:39.two-bedroom apartments, in London. This is not just about London but
:16:40. > :16:46.the British economy. The question is, can you celebrate a boom still
:16:47. > :16:51.built on property price increases and a growing disparity between rich
:16:52. > :17:01.and poor? Is that sustainable? And debt, ?2 trillion of domestic debt.
:17:02. > :17:08.The Chancellor unveiled some better than expected figures for growth
:17:09. > :17:13.but, it is this just a sugar high, will it last?
:17:14. > :17:22.And teaching? A great story about a headteacher
:17:23. > :17:26.who advertised for an assistant. He got all these replies which were
:17:27. > :17:39.illiterate. One person said, I like to see students "bossom." I think he
:17:40. > :17:44.meant blossom. He listed as his experience, and person listed as his
:17:45. > :17:51.experience, flying a single engined plane.
:17:52. > :17:54.In many respects, teachers do a superb job, but there are some
:17:55. > :17:59.fundamental problems in the system, this is what this piece tells us.
:18:00. > :18:04.Qualifications aren't everything, you do need the charisma.
:18:05. > :18:10.But not the experience of flying a light aircraft.
:18:11. > :18:15.My next one is different, Alzheimers. My mother died from
:18:16. > :18:20.Alzheimers basically, it is an issue of personal interest. David Cameron
:18:21. > :18:31.has said he wants Britain to lead the fight in the global fight
:18:32. > :18:35.against dementia. Barack Obama announced $100 million towards a
:18:36. > :18:41.brain research Centre. There needs to be more co-ordinated global
:18:42. > :18:48.action. The spend on Cancer Research UK is much higher. A little plug for
:18:49. > :18:52.the fact David Cameron has picked up an important cause.
:18:53. > :18:59.The other thing I wanted to talk about, Nigella Lawson winning in the
:19:00. > :19:05.court of public opinion. I would imagine many women would
:19:06. > :19:09.have cheered this. Not only is this a story which is powerful and
:19:10. > :19:14.emotional, it is a cautionary tale about what can happen to a woman
:19:15. > :19:19.like her who gets entranced by a rich man and thinks her problems are
:19:20. > :19:23.solved. A warning to young children, young women across Britain who
:19:24. > :19:30.looked at a pretty woman and think, I will be swept away and rescued. A
:19:31. > :19:34.tragic story. She has come through looking dignified, fighting back.
:19:35. > :19:41.We have been talking about image and clothing. She looked like an
:19:42. > :19:47.extraordinary renaissance princess. She did so in a dignified way
:19:48. > :19:52.without hurling insults. I suspect after all this happened, she will
:19:53. > :19:58.come back even stronger than before.
:19:59. > :20:06.One final thought on Mandela. The story in the Observer newspaper,
:20:07. > :20:12.about the business of the post-Mandela world and the symbol he
:20:13. > :20:20.was. I also remember, one thing is he was absolutely realistic about
:20:21. > :20:24.the way things should work. On that first day I met him, at the end of
:20:25. > :20:30.the interview, they wanted him to come out and make a big speech about
:20:31. > :20:38.freedom, equality, justice for all. He looked at the crowd and said, go
:20:39. > :20:43.back to school. An intimation of political mortality do like I have
:20:44. > :20:49.never heard. Standing with ANC stalwart Majak Daw. He said, we are
:20:50. > :20:56.not going to be here very long, the future belongs to you -- ANC
:20:57. > :21:05.stalwarts. Now to the weather. And it's a bit
:21:06. > :21:09.calmer after the storm, and milder too. Let's get more detail from Stav
:21:10. > :21:16.Danaos in the weather studio. It is looking much calmer generally
:21:17. > :21:22.because of high pressure which will continue to dominate. But the
:21:23. > :21:27.southern half will do well. In Scotland and Northern Ireland, windy
:21:28. > :21:32.and increasingly wet. The rain will pile up as we head through the
:21:33. > :21:41.afternoon. A very wet 24 hours, strong, gale force winds. Drier
:21:42. > :21:45.interludes across eastern Scotland. Temperatures up to 13 Celsius.
:21:46. > :21:51.Outbreaks of rain in the North of England and North Wales. Away from
:21:52. > :22:01.here, a dry picture. Heading into next week, staying on the mild side.
:22:02. > :22:07.One or two showers. This is the picture for Monday, a chilly start
:22:08. > :22:14.in the south. Central and eastern England will be fine and dry. Breezy
:22:15. > :22:19.across the north and west. The rain will gradually ease away. The
:22:20. > :22:21.temperatures up to 12 Celsius. Staying that way through the week.
:22:22. > :22:29.Turning a little colder midweek. During Nelson Mandela's
:22:30. > :22:32.imprisonment, South Africa became a hugely divisive issue here. The
:22:33. > :22:35.sporting and cultural boycotts were hotly debated, as was the question
:22:36. > :22:39.of economic sanctions. Neil Kinnock was leader of the Labour Party, as
:22:40. > :22:42.the momentum and pressure for change from within and outside South Africa
:22:43. > :22:45.grew. He met Nelson Mandela on several occasions after he was
:22:46. > :22:52.released from prison, and he joins me now. Good morning. Hello. The
:22:53. > :22:59.first time you met him was in Sweden. Yes, the social Democratic
:23:00. > :23:04.Prime Minister of Sweden, a good friend of mine. Sweden had provided
:23:05. > :23:09.support for the ANC and South Africans generally in exile as well
:23:10. > :23:16.as in the country, in a way no other country had. Nelson's choice was to
:23:17. > :23:21.go there first. A huge privilege for myself and my wife to go and meet
:23:22. > :23:27.him. What was extraordinary about it was, we were in the foreign ministry
:23:28. > :23:33.in Stockholm, we went to the head of the queue ahead of the Cabinet will
:23:34. > :23:39.stop we were with the TV lights. Mandela walked through the door,
:23:40. > :23:44.walked straight up to us and said, you are Neil Kinnock, you are clever
:23:45. > :23:50.skin. I said, how did you know? He said, I have been looking at your
:23:51. > :23:53.photographs. He had on the wall in his prison cell, photographs of all
:23:54. > :23:58.the people who had spoken in Trafalgar Square and demonstrated.
:23:59. > :24:05.He knew all their faces. How important was the British
:24:06. > :24:12.anti-apartheid movement? He called London the second world headquarters
:24:13. > :24:19.of the anti-apartheid movement. From the late 1950s, through the 1960s,
:24:20. > :24:25.there was a very strong anti-apartheid movement here. And,
:24:26. > :24:29.of course, South Africans in exile, black and white, played a
:24:30. > :24:37.substantial part in that. You and Margaret Thatcher memorably clashed
:24:38. > :24:44.on this. In a sense, she called him a terrorist, and he was involved in
:24:45. > :24:51.a paramilitary wing. They resorted to violence, as it turned out, quite
:24:52. > :24:55.mild violence, in utter desperation. Especially in the wake
:24:56. > :25:03.of the Sharpeville Massacre. When it became apparent that the Afrikaner
:25:04. > :25:10.domination of South Africa, the party regime, would only respond to
:25:11. > :25:14.violence, because violence was its main tool. It was a reluctant
:25:15. > :25:18.decision, but it was a firm decision. They did what they could
:25:19. > :25:26.to disrupt the state, and to draw attention globally to the massive,
:25:27. > :25:31.deep injustice of apartheid. It was for that offence that he and the
:25:32. > :25:38.rest of his comrades were sentenced to life imprisonment in the trials
:25:39. > :25:43.in 1964. In this country, the argument was over sanctions. Would
:25:44. > :25:47.it work? A huge debate about the sanctions, even when we were in a
:25:48. > :25:54.Labour government. And the great change the Harold Wilson comment
:25:55. > :25:59.made in 1974 was to end the agreement with South Africa by which
:26:00. > :26:04.we had docking facilities and rearming facilities for our fleet.
:26:05. > :26:10.Hugely controversial. Even the Wilson government did not make any
:26:11. > :26:15.substantial steps in the direction of the investment and material
:26:16. > :26:21.sanctions, which were the essence of the sanctions campaign. It was US
:26:22. > :26:26.Congress, a Republican dominated Congress, which passed their
:26:27. > :26:30.sanctions against South Africa legislation and made a huge
:26:31. > :26:35.difference, when they cut the investment into South Africa.
:26:36. > :26:39.Looking ahead, we say there is no Hollywood ending. If you were in
:26:40. > :26:45.South Africa as a citizen, I suspect you would not be a member of the ANC
:26:46. > :26:53.which has problems of corruption and disillusionment. I might be part of
:26:54. > :26:58.the reform wing of the ANC and -- which is flourishing happily. Every
:26:59. > :27:02.party needs its renovation and refreshment. Even in a party with
:27:03. > :27:08.the extraordinary discipline of the ANC, it is clear that there needs to
:27:09. > :27:15.be substantial change in its system of appointments, operation at local
:27:16. > :27:20.and national level. People in the ANC arguing that are showing huge
:27:21. > :27:24.integrity and courage. I suspect that Nelson Mandela's arguments will
:27:25. > :27:30.be substantially in their director and, he was acutely aware of the
:27:31. > :27:37.transitory nature of achievement and the need to keep building. He made
:27:38. > :27:42.that plane. Real politics goes on. Are you an optimist about South
:27:43. > :27:47.Africa? I am, partly because of the huge resource of its people that
:27:48. > :27:51.they have shown even in the most dreadful circumstances. Their
:27:52. > :27:57.ability to be innovative and forward looking. Secondly, the gigantic
:27:58. > :28:03.natural resources. If more fairly shared, it could fuel a real
:28:04. > :28:33.development of South Africa so it is one of the rich countries. Most of
:28:34. > :28:38.the press are lined up fame against him. He had 300 Tory MPs, if you
:28:39. > :28:44.look at the recordings, screaming their heads off against him. It is
:28:45. > :28:49.the truth, as they well know, which is why they organised it, that
:28:50. > :28:54.barracking on a sustained basis is hugely distracting. All he wanted to
:28:55. > :29:01.do, and he was right, is get through the truths, that we are faced by a
:29:02. > :29:05.cost of living crisis, and a government out of touch with those
:29:06. > :29:11.realities and not responding. Secondly, every single one of the
:29:12. > :29:17.objectives that George observed -- George Osborne set in 2010, he has
:29:18. > :29:26.utterly failed. Balance of payments deficits... It is vital we take the
:29:27. > :29:31.opportunity of interviews like yours to get across those truths again.
:29:32. > :29:39.Nevertheless, there is no money looking ahead. The huge debt hangs
:29:40. > :29:43.over the next government. Individual personal debt is massive in this
:29:44. > :29:48.country. What happens when there is no money left? We can use the same
:29:49. > :29:53.attitude as evident in the last genuine austerity government. Since
:29:54. > :30:01.George Osborne wants to take us back to 1948. And that is austerity that
:30:02. > :30:07.has two characteristics. It is fair at every possible level, and the
:30:08. > :30:12.broadest backs there are the heaviest burden. They are doing the
:30:13. > :30:16.opposite now. Secondly, austerity is used as the basis for renewal and
:30:17. > :30:20.prosperity, instead of being used as an excuse to cut the state back to
:30:21. > :30:29.levels where it becomes rudimentary. That must mean income tax rises,
:30:30. > :30:34.which will leave the current Labour Party open to the same tax
:30:35. > :30:38.bombshell? It depends who is required to pay the additional tax.
:30:39. > :30:44.What we have is a country in which the top rate of tax on people on
:30:45. > :30:49.over ?150,000 per year has been cut from a 50% rate, down to a 45% rate.
:30:50. > :30:55.I'm not saying they should pay for everything. You think it should go
:30:56. > :30:58.up? Banker bonus taxation should be restored to the rational system that
:30:59. > :31:05.we had and we should have a copy rate of 50%. That is clearly the
:31:06. > :31:09.Labour Party's unerring policy. When we say we are going to balance the
:31:10. > :31:15.economy, balance the books, let's do it in a rational way which includes
:31:16. > :31:19.the sustaining and development of the civilised parts and the
:31:20. > :31:24.essential, efficient parts of life, including education, including
:31:25. > :31:31.research and development, and not destroy, in a bid to apply an
:31:32. > :31:34.ideology, an ideology of reducing the state, our country to a very
:31:35. > :31:41.long period of extremely low growth. Higher taxes for the very rich? Oh,
:31:42. > :31:44.yes. Rarely has energy policy been so
:31:45. > :31:48.high on the political agenda. And yet power for homes and businesses
:31:49. > :31:51.is one of our most basic needs. Accommodation of rising bills, the
:31:52. > :31:55.pressure to go green and warnings about possible shortages next winter
:31:56. > :31:59.has suddenly ignited. For the past few weeks, energy has been the hot
:32:00. > :32:03.topic at Westminster. Energy companies have not had a good press
:32:04. > :32:06.recently, criticised for making excess profits on the backs of their
:32:07. > :32:12.customers. Most of the bosses have frankly run for cover. Not, I'm glad
:32:13. > :32:18.to say, Vincent de Rivaz of EDF, one of the big six, who joins me now.
:32:19. > :32:22.The Chancellor was telling us that ?50 is given to come off every
:32:23. > :32:32.energy bill. That's not true, your customers are not going to get ?50
:32:33. > :32:37.off? It is not good enough for the energy companies to say nothing can
:32:38. > :32:41.be done. That is why we were the first to take action. I was
:32:42. > :32:50.confident that we would be able to build on the costs. That is why we
:32:51. > :32:56.have limited the rise in our bills in anticipation of what happened
:32:57. > :33:00.when the government decided to find solutions. You made the cut ahead of
:33:01. > :33:05.time, as it were, rather than afterwards? Typically, your
:33:06. > :33:09.customers on fixed terms contracts will not see ?50 coming off the
:33:10. > :33:16.bill? There are a lot of customers on fixed term contracts. It is a
:33:17. > :33:23.good deal. By the way, we have gained 600,000 customers. We needed
:33:24. > :33:29.it away together, politicians and industry, to address the real issue
:33:30. > :33:34.of rising bills. It is a real issue, they are hurting and I think action
:33:35. > :33:38.can be taken. On the short-term, action can be taken. I think more
:33:39. > :33:43.can be done. Have you been asked to freeze prices until 2015? No, we
:33:44. > :33:49.have not been asked to freeze prices. What I think is very
:33:50. > :33:57.important is that we have to work together to build on the costs. On
:33:58. > :34:00.the short-term, we have this short-term issue. At the same time,
:34:01. > :34:05.we need to think about the long-term. We need to invest in this
:34:06. > :34:11.country. I want to come onto that, very much. To keep the lights on.
:34:12. > :34:17.Long-term and short-term, the challenge is the same. How to do
:34:18. > :34:22.that in an affordable way. How to do that in such a way that we do not
:34:23. > :34:31.abandon the vulnerable, that we do not drop our objectives. At the same
:34:32. > :34:35.time, we keep the lights on. I want to talk about that in a minute.
:34:36. > :34:38.Before I do, what about the idea of a price freeze, the Labour idea of
:34:39. > :34:45.freezing prices for 18 months? Would that work? The politicians are right
:34:46. > :34:48.to ask questions and challenge us. There are many ways to address the
:34:49. > :34:53.question. I think the best way, frankly, is to join forces to take
:34:54. > :34:57.down the cost. What we have proposed, we are the first to take
:34:58. > :35:04.action, and we need to do more, I think. There are more opportunities
:35:05. > :35:07.to get down the costs in future. And has been said if you brought in a
:35:08. > :35:12.price freeze the energy companies would simply raise the prices before
:35:13. > :35:17.the freeze and then the minute it finished raise the prices again. Is
:35:18. > :35:21.that fair? I think we should not behave like that. We have a
:35:22. > :35:25.responsibility, we should be a force for good and part of the solution.
:35:26. > :35:30.In the short term, we have to take action. On the long-term, we are
:35:31. > :35:34.also taking action. Through the meaning of the deal that we have had
:35:35. > :35:41.with the government recently, we have massive investments that will
:35:42. > :35:44.be made in the UK to build new nuclear plants. Because of the
:35:45. > :35:51.carbon agreements with the EU and so on, all coal power stations have to
:35:52. > :35:56.be decommissioned by 2020. That is 40% of our total capacity, thus the
:35:57. > :36:00.fact that a lot of nuclear power stations are closing. Is it possible
:36:01. > :36:04.to keep the system running, given the level of closures? Yes, if the
:36:05. > :36:11.investments are made. You know, we are discussing a lot about all of
:36:12. > :36:19.these matters. I believe that the government is taking action to
:36:20. > :36:23.reform, which is working. Where is the evidence? The deal that we have
:36:24. > :36:30.got with the Government to invest ?16 billion in the UK economy,
:36:31. > :36:38.creating jobs and opportunities. This is the third power station at
:36:39. > :36:42.Hinkley point? This deal would not happen if the Government had not
:36:43. > :36:46.taken action to reform the market, to attract investors, to create the
:36:47. > :36:51.confidence that investors need to have an long-term, at the same time,
:36:52. > :36:53.at a fair price for customers. Customers will not pay a penny in
:36:54. > :36:59.the next decade whilst we are building these new nuclear power
:37:00. > :37:04.plants. Is this actually going to happen? It has not been signed off
:37:05. > :37:09.yet? I am very confident. Of course we have some hurdles to overcome.
:37:10. > :37:13.Causing the finance of the project as a whole, getting the clearance of
:37:14. > :37:22.Brussels. But we have the foundation of it. I have to say, I know for a
:37:23. > :37:28.fact that they were very tough negotiations. They took a long time
:37:29. > :37:35.and the Government fought very hard on taxpayers' behalf. Ultimately, I
:37:36. > :37:40.think we have a fair deal. But it is a very, very expensive deal for the
:37:41. > :37:42.taxpayer. I think the government has guaranteed the price from this power
:37:43. > :37:47.station at double the current level of power for 35 years, which is why
:37:48. > :37:54.the EU and many others are looking at this deal. They are not looking
:37:55. > :38:02.at cancelling the deal. I just mean they are unsure about it. They are
:38:03. > :38:06.going to investigate, as they should do. It is totally expected, it is
:38:07. > :38:11.OK, and we respect the decisions. But the customers, we stand on the
:38:12. > :38:16.side of the customers. They will not pay 1p in the next decade whilst we
:38:17. > :38:23.will be building these plants. Then they will pay a lot afterwards? They
:38:24. > :38:28.will pay a price, which is a fair price, which will attract investor
:38:29. > :38:35.confidence but will be fair for the customers. It will be cheaper than
:38:36. > :38:40.other sources. It will be a price that is not dependent on the fossil
:38:41. > :38:45.fuel imported. With the volatility around it. I think it is a fair
:38:46. > :38:49.deal. If it was not, it would not be a durable deal. I was looking for a
:38:50. > :38:53.neutral source of information, because everybody is a partisan
:38:54. > :38:58.player of one kind or another. The rural society of engineering did a
:38:59. > :39:01.report on energy security and they thought it was a serious danger, if
:39:02. > :39:06.a feud things went wrong, of the lights going out next winter. Were
:39:07. > :39:12.they right about that? I think we will have the lights on this winter.
:39:13. > :39:17.There is a margin which we use. Very small? But we have enough for the
:39:18. > :39:22.winter. What about next winter? For the next years, what we need to do
:39:23. > :39:29.is make these investments that are required and make them in a way that
:39:30. > :39:34.is affordable for the customers. What does that mean in terms of the
:39:35. > :39:41.kind of generation? More nuclear? There will be more nuclear and I am
:39:42. > :39:46.sure there will be others. We need to get the right energy mix and at
:39:47. > :39:50.the same time we need to keep our homes more energy efficient. That is
:39:51. > :39:54.our common challenge. It is a challenge that we will overcome if
:39:55. > :39:59.we are working together, joining forces. I am not ready to enter into
:40:00. > :40:10.any political row. I am not ready for that. Oh, dear. No, it does not
:40:11. > :40:13.help the customers. What does help the customers is to examine the cost
:40:14. > :40:19.to see if there is a better way forward is, and I think there is. We
:40:20. > :40:24.have proven recently, the Government has taken action, it is a first
:40:25. > :40:27.step. More nuclear power stations with different companies, different
:40:28. > :40:31.deals around the country for the future, you think? It attracts
:40:32. > :40:41.investors. You have mentioned the Chinese. It is a very good and
:40:42. > :40:45.positive signal. The British Prime Minister was in China last week. The
:40:46. > :40:49.French Prime Minister was in China, at the same time, more less. That
:40:50. > :40:53.means there are political links between our three countries. We have
:40:54. > :40:56.known these countries for 30 years, have been building and operating in
:40:57. > :41:01.China with them. They will be our partners. Market reform is working,
:41:02. > :41:03.it is attracting investors and I partners. Market reform is working,
:41:04. > :41:06.think it will help to keep the lights on in a way that is
:41:07. > :41:11.affordable for the customers because we all need to stand together. Our
:41:12. > :41:18.15,000 employees are a force for good. Thank you for joining us. From
:41:19. > :41:24.the boss of EDF to a man well known for his environmental activism, as
:41:25. > :41:30.well as for his music. In 1988, Sting open the Nelson Mandela 70th
:41:31. > :41:34.birthday concert with his hit, Set Them Free. It was a moment of
:41:35. > :41:42.powerful symbolism in the push to free Mandela and set South Africa on
:41:43. > :41:48.the road to democracy. His new album, The Last Ship, is almost like
:41:49. > :41:59.a novel in folk song about the ship building roots of Sting's Northern
:42:00. > :42:03.roots. # It all fades to black, and yet I
:42:04. > :42:06.am back # The town is a strange, magnetic
:42:07. > :42:14.pull # Like a homing signal in your skull
:42:15. > :42:20.# In the hemisphere will, wondering how the hell you got here
:42:21. > :42:23.# It's like an underground river, a stream
:42:24. > :42:27.# That haunts your head and once your dreams
:42:28. > :42:30.# And used of those dreams in a canvas sack
:42:31. > :42:33.# And there's nothing around here but the wild world
:42:34. > :42:37.# And yet, and yet, you are back... #
:42:38. > :42:45.We haven't had a Geordie accent like that from you for a while? I only
:42:46. > :42:53.get the accent when I'm angry, my kids always know. This is the first
:42:54. > :43:00.new album you have produced for a long time? I went back to where I
:43:01. > :43:06.come from, to my Tyneside roots. I come from Wallsend, a big shipyard
:43:07. > :43:13.town. I started to write songs about the community I was brought up in. I
:43:14. > :43:17.was speaking in somebody else's voice, telling their stories, rather
:43:18. > :43:21.than mine, it relieved me of that paralysis that was worrying me. It
:43:22. > :43:29.is going to be a Hollywood Opera? A musical? A musical. I think you're
:43:30. > :43:35.going to launch this in Chicago. Why? Why South Shields? The life of
:43:36. > :43:43.the thing began in Newcastle. We workshop date with local actors and
:43:44. > :43:47.local musicians in the Live Theatre on Tyneside. We invited lots of
:43:48. > :43:51.ex-shipyard workers to give their blessing. They gave us their
:43:52. > :43:55.blessing. I think there is a universal message that people in any
:43:56. > :43:59.post-industrial city will understand, what it is like to lose
:44:00. > :44:03.something that gave you a sense of yourself. It was also quite horrific
:44:04. > :44:08.for those doing it at the time. It was a very hard life? An
:44:09. > :44:11.extraordinarily hard life. In my town, it was probably the worst
:44:12. > :44:16.working conditions in Western Europe. Asbestos, red lead, welding
:44:17. > :44:21.fumes. At the same time, there was an immense pride in what these men
:44:22. > :44:25.and women built. The biggest ships in the world, ever constructed, were
:44:26. > :44:32.built at the end of my street. I wanted to honour that, both sides of
:44:33. > :44:35.the equation. You give something to your critics, you live this
:44:36. > :44:46.glittering, golden life in the States, are you sentimental about
:44:47. > :44:49.the North? I'm essentially annex I of my community, I spent a lot of
:44:50. > :44:58.energy trying to escape that life. And yet I think it gives me an in
:44:59. > :45:01.into the prescribing it. It's a word rich album, I call it like a little
:45:02. > :45:06.novel. When you came back to writing, you went from that rather
:45:07. > :45:12.underrated and underappreciated genre, English folk, because we have
:45:13. > :45:18.Irish and Scottish folk, English folk, a huge tradition in the
:45:19. > :45:22.north-east? Yes, Northumbrian folk music, but it also has a lot of
:45:23. > :45:28.immigration from Scotland and Ireland. Newcastle has a very rich
:45:29. > :45:35.folk tradition. I needed to address that in the music. I mentioned the
:45:36. > :45:41.1988 Mandela concert, you nearly didn't make it? I have no memory of
:45:42. > :45:45.it. I read that the guy that set it apart to go to your hotel to tell
:45:46. > :45:50.you about it and get you to pull out of a European gig and get there?
:45:51. > :45:54.That does not sound like me at all. OK, no memory, but it was a great
:45:55. > :46:01.moment, it did happen, it is on tape. We are going to hear The Last
:46:02. > :46:05.Ship, the opening song of the album, at the end of the show. Tell us a
:46:06. > :46:11.bit about whose voice you are singing in. It is a priest singing,
:46:12. > :46:18.a local priest. Fantastic. Thank you for joining us. You can see When The
:46:19. > :46:22.Last Ship Sails, Sting's musical tribute to his shipbuilding heritage
:46:23. > :46:31.on ABC one in two weeks time. Now back to the domestic issue of
:46:32. > :46:35.the moment, the economy. The government is cautiously celebrating
:46:36. > :46:38.the return of growth. But the struggle to balance the books goes
:46:39. > :46:41.on. In his Autumn Statement, the Chancellor announced more cuts in
:46:42. > :46:44.departmental spending, to pay for promises of free school meals, and a
:46:45. > :46:49.tax break for married couples. Has he done enough? Do the sums add up?
:46:50. > :46:51.I'm joined by the Lib Dems' man at the Treasury, the Chief Secretary
:46:52. > :47:00.Danny Alexander. Welcome back. Free school meals, a
:47:01. > :47:06.core offer from the Lib Dems, funded until 2015, what happens
:47:07. > :47:10.afterwards? There is a total amount of spending, but because we haven't
:47:11. > :47:15.allocated departmental spending totals after then, it sits within
:47:16. > :47:20.the overall amount of money set aside. It is funded within that
:47:21. > :47:25.overall total. It is a permanent commitment made by this government
:47:26. > :47:30.to ensure every child in the first three years of school has a female.
:47:31. > :47:35.Because it helps their parents with financial pressures. Nonetheless, it
:47:36. > :47:41.is not funded in the sense you will have to make cuts elsewhere to carry
:47:42. > :47:45.on paying for it. There will need to be further measures to balance the
:47:46. > :47:49.books as we get towards the target of dealing with the structural
:47:50. > :47:55.deficit. That will include funding a range of things. None of those have
:47:56. > :48:01.spending totals set out for them at the moment. It is a commitment made
:48:02. > :48:06.throughout that period. As a Liberal Democrat, I would like to see some
:48:07. > :48:12.of those decisions made by raising taxes on the wealthiest in this
:48:13. > :48:18.country. You agree with Neil Kinnock about the 50p tax rate? No, I do not
:48:19. > :48:25.agree we should go back to a 50p rate. We would like to see a mansion
:48:26. > :48:29.tax. That wouldn't raise much. ?2 billion a year, a useful
:48:30. > :48:34.contribution. And other measures on the wealthy as well. The further
:48:35. > :48:39.steps we take as a country don't have to be met through further
:48:40. > :48:44.spending reductions. George Osborne wants it to come from spending
:48:45. > :48:49.reductions. Then the cuts will be huge. You can't take money on
:48:50. > :48:54.pensions, the NHS or schools, it doesn't leave many targets. Local
:48:55. > :49:00.authority budgets would have to be massacred. I took the decision in
:49:01. > :49:05.this Autumn Statement to protect local authority budgets, we didn't
:49:06. > :49:09.reduce them by 1% as central government. We have given them more
:49:10. > :49:15.money, particularly for council houses. We need to see more social
:49:16. > :49:20.house-building going on. How do you make those cuts? You would have two
:49:21. > :49:26.make very deep and substantial new cuts to achieve that balanced
:49:27. > :49:30.budget. There has to be further savings, you are right. The decision
:49:31. > :49:34.in this Autumn Statement is we're not going to use the benefits of
:49:35. > :49:39.growth in terms of lower deficits, our debt is falling more quickly
:49:40. > :49:43.than previously forecasted, to spend that money, because we need to
:49:44. > :49:47.balance the books. I would ask the wealthy to pay more in taxation,
:49:48. > :49:52.making central government more efficient. There are things
:49:53. > :49:58.happening at the moment we might want to reverse. The Lib Dems do not
:49:59. > :50:07.support a tax breaks for married couples, so there are some things as
:50:08. > :50:11.a party... You are distancing yourself from the Conservatives. I
:50:12. > :50:16.would say there are big differences between our parties. We want a
:50:17. > :50:21.strong economy and a fair society. You need the Lib Dems to keep the
:50:22. > :50:27.country in the centre ground to have both. Labour couldn't develop a
:50:28. > :50:29.stronger economy. But I don't think the Conservatives by themselves
:50:30. > :50:36.could be trusted to deliver fairness. When it comes to the rich,
:50:37. > :50:40.beyond the match in tax, what else would you do? We had a set of
:50:41. > :50:51.proposals at our conference this autumn, including a mansion tax,
:50:52. > :50:55.capital gains tax. There is a lot in the Autumn Statement on tax
:50:56. > :51:00.avoidance and there is more we could do particularly for large
:51:01. > :51:05.corporations. There would have to be further spending restraint as well.
:51:06. > :51:11.In a future coalition, would you rigourously oppose deeper welfare
:51:12. > :51:19.cuts particularly on household budgets? There does, there will have
:51:20. > :51:24.to be further welfare reform which is why I am a strong supporter of
:51:25. > :51:30.the universal credit. Doesn't that spell trouble? There have been if
:51:31. > :51:35.you difficulties over the last few months. Now we have a realistic plan
:51:36. > :51:38.for what is the largest reform of our welfare system that we have seen
:51:39. > :51:45.since the system was created in this country. It should be taken at a
:51:46. > :51:51.realistic pace. Removing housing benefit from young people? As a
:51:52. > :51:56.party we have not supported that. It is not part of our proposals in the
:51:57. > :52:01.next election. What I do strongly support is what we, as a coalition,
:52:02. > :52:05.have announced. A cap on overall welfare spending so governments have
:52:06. > :52:13.to be accountable when costs on welfare arise. The consequence
:52:14. > :52:18.being, departmental budgets get squeezed. I have been asking
:52:19. > :52:28.politicians but nobody seems worried. Personal household debt. ?2
:52:29. > :52:32.trillion, a huge overhang of debt on the economy. Of course I am
:52:33. > :52:40.concerned about that. It appears people are spending more than they
:52:41. > :52:46.have got. Households are spending by borrowing. You are right to raise
:52:47. > :52:51.that. Household debt is lower than it was as a share of the economy
:52:52. > :52:57.before the crisis. It is one reason why we have been firm we need to
:52:58. > :53:01.stick to our plan. The only way to sustainably increase people 's
:53:02. > :53:07.living standards is to have a recovery on firm foundations. In the
:53:08. > :53:14.meantime, we can cut income tax, a big commitment by Lib Dems to a
:53:15. > :53:19.?10,000 tax-free allowance, so people can be better off. We are
:53:20. > :53:24.tightening our belts but MPs are getting an 11% increase. Do you
:53:25. > :53:29.support that? Most people will find it incompatible, at a time of pay
:53:30. > :53:35.restraint in the public sector, squeeze on public spending, that
:53:36. > :53:39.this should be recommended. It would be wholly inappropriate for MPs to
:53:40. > :53:46.get such a large pay rise when every other public sector worker sees
:53:47. > :53:51.their pay capped at 1%. I have said in the past, personally, I would not
:53:52. > :53:57.accept it. Can you do anything as a government? We have made a strong
:53:58. > :54:02.recommendation making the point I have made that it would not be
:54:03. > :54:08.appropriate at a time of wider public service pay restraint. Can
:54:09. > :54:14.you vote to stop it? It is an independent body precisely because
:54:15. > :54:20.MPs did not want MPs Roche people did not want MPs controlling their
:54:21. > :54:25.salaries. There is no power in legislation. The recommendations
:54:26. > :54:33.have not been made yet. My point would be, even at this late stage,
:54:34. > :54:37.it should recognise the wider climate of the economy and people's
:54:38. > :54:39.living standards. Now over to Sally, for the news
:54:40. > :54:52.headlines. MPs are set to receive an 11% pay
:54:53. > :54:54.rise, when a parliamentary watchdog publishes its final recommendations
:54:55. > :54:58.on salaries this week. The increase is due to come into effect after the
:54:59. > :55:01.2015 general election, and will take MPs pay to ?74,000. David Cameron,
:55:02. > :55:04.Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg all criticised the planned rise, but
:55:05. > :55:07.won't be able to prevent it because the Independent Parliamentary
:55:08. > :55:08.Standards Authority does not need the agreement of Parliament to bring
:55:09. > :55:17.in the changes. Airline passengers have been warned
:55:18. > :55:20.there could be further disruption today, due to a technical fault at
:55:21. > :55:23.the National Air Traffic Service yesterday. Hundreds of flights were
:55:24. > :55:27.delayed or cancelled, and NATS said there might be a knock-on effect for
:55:28. > :55:30.services. But airports across the UK say they are hoping to return to
:55:31. > :55:37.normal operations after the telephone glitch.
:55:38. > :55:42.Hat's all from me for now. The next news on BBC One is at 1pm. Back to
:55:43. > :55:43.you, Andrew. We've been talking a lot this morning about Nelson
:55:44. > :55:46.Mandela. If you used to watch Breakfast With
:55:47. > :55:50.Frost which, for many years, occupied this slot on Sunday
:55:51. > :55:53.mornings. You may remember that Sir David Frost, who died only a few
:55:54. > :55:57.months ago, interviewed him on several occasions. And there was one
:55:58. > :55:59.visit to the studio which produced a particularly enduring image, as
:56:00. > :56:00.President Mandela joined in with a performance by Ladysmith Black
:56:01. > :56:18.Mambazo. # Long walk to freedom, together to
:56:19. > :56:30.freedom. A great moment.
:56:31. > :56:33.That's nearly all we have time for this morning. Thanks to all my
:56:34. > :56:37.guests. Next week, I have to be away, but Jeremy Vine will be here,
:56:38. > :56:39.with guests including the Hobbit actor Martin Freeman. And the
:56:40. > :56:43.fantastic jazz musician, Jamie Cullum. So, do join Jeremy for that.
:56:44. > :56:46.For now, we leave you with a lovely piece of English folk. Sting's
:56:47. > :56:51.lament for Tyneside past, The Last Ship.
:56:52. > :56:56.# It's all there in the gospels, the Magdalene girl
:56:57. > :57:00.# Comes to pay her respects, but her mind is awhirl
:57:01. > :57:04.# When she finds the tomb empty, the stone had been rolled
:57:05. > :57:07.# Not a sign of a corpse in the dark and the cold
:57:08. > :57:10.# When she reaches the door, sees an unholy sight
:57:11. > :57:13.# There's this solitary figure in a halo of light
:57:14. > :57:18.# He just carries on floating past Calvary Hill
:57:19. > :57:26.# In an almighty hurry, aye but she might catch him still.
:57:27. > :57:33.# Tell me where are ye going lord, and why in such haste?
:57:34. > :57:37.# Now, don't hinder me woman I've no time to waste!
:57:38. > :57:40.# For they're launching a boat on the morrow at noon
:57:41. > :57:43.# And I have to be there before daybreak
:57:44. > :57:46.# Oh, I cannae be missing, the lads'll expect me
:57:47. > :57:49.# Why else would the good Lord himself resurrect me?
:57:50. > :57:51.# For nothing'll stop me, I have to prevail
:57:52. > :57:55.# Through the teeth of this tempest in the mouth of a gale
:57:56. > :58:00.# May the angels protect me if all else should fail
:58:01. > :58:04.# When the last ship sails # Oh, the roar of the chains and the
:58:05. > :58:09.cracking of timbers # The noise at the end of the world
:58:10. > :58:13.in your ears # As a mountain of steel makes its
:58:14. > :58:18.way to the sea # And the last ship sails
:58:19. > :58:22.# And whatever you'd promised, whatever you've done
:58:23. > :58:28.# And whatever the station in life you've become
:58:29. > :58:32.# In the name of the father in the name of the son
:58:33. > :58:36.# And no matter the weave of the life that you've spun
:58:37. > :58:43.# On the Earth or in Heaven or under the Sun
:58:44. > :58:47.# When the last ship sails. # Oh, the roar of the chains and the
:58:48. > :58:51.cracking of timbers # The noise at the end of the world
:58:52. > :58:57.in your ears # As a mountain of steel makes its
:58:58. > :59:04.way to the sea # And the last ship sails. #