:00:33. > :00:40.Good morning. Great to be back after the Easter break. What's changed in
:00:41. > :00:43.politics? Not a lot, except that the Prime Minister got stung by a
:00:44. > :00:47.jellyfish. Oh, yes, and UKIP's on the rise. Judging by this morning's
:00:48. > :00:51.papers it's not the jellyfish David Cameron should be worried about,
:00:52. > :00:54.it's the sharks. And joining me today for our review of the Sunday
:00:55. > :00:58.newspapers, the former Labour cabinet minister Peter Hain and the
:00:59. > :01:01.Sun columnist Jane Moore. But we're going to start with
:01:02. > :01:05.something truly serious. The situation in Ukraine grows graver by
:01:06. > :01:11.the day. The Ukrainian government talks dramatically of Russia of
:01:12. > :01:14.wanting to start World War III. Will the tougher sanctions announced this
:01:15. > :01:20.weekend be enough to deter President Putin from a full-scale invasion, if
:01:21. > :01:22.that is indeed his plan? We'll hear this morning from Ukraine's
:01:23. > :01:29.Ambassador in London, Volodymyr Khandogi. If Russia invades will
:01:30. > :01:32.Ukraine fight? Here, with the European elections
:01:33. > :01:35.campaign underway, and the general election looming, all the parties
:01:36. > :01:40.are polishing up their key messages on issues such as jobs and
:01:41. > :01:44.immigration. But the polls show that health remains near the top of the
:01:45. > :01:49.public's list of priorities. I'm joined by the Health Secretary,
:01:50. > :01:53.Jeremy Hunt. We hear a lot about problems at A, getting in to see
:01:54. > :01:56.the GP, a crisis in elderly care. Exaggeration, or signs of a system
:01:57. > :02:03.struggling to cope with financial pressures? The Greens' leader,
:02:04. > :02:06.Natalie Bennett is here, too, with her election pitch.
:02:07. > :02:09.Finally, on a morning when the papers say we are no longer a
:02:10. > :02:12.Christian country, the best television advert for Christianity
:02:13. > :02:19.joins me, the actor Tom Hollander, who stars in Rev. We'll be talking
:02:20. > :02:23.about the future of the church and his other great enthusiasm, Dylan
:02:24. > :02:29.Thomas. So that's war and peace, life and death, poetry and prayer
:02:30. > :02:33.all squeezed into just an hour. Not bad! But first the news with Sian
:02:34. > :02:36.Lloyd. The Ministry of Defence says the
:02:37. > :02:38.helicopter crash in southern Afghanistan, which killed five
:02:39. > :02:42.servicemen, appears to have been an accident. The Lynx was on what the
:02:43. > :02:46.MoD described as a routine flight when it came down in Kandahar
:02:47. > :02:54.province yesterday. The families of those on board have been informed.
:02:55. > :03:00.This is the first fatal British helicopter crash during the Afghan
:03:01. > :03:04.conflict and the third biggest single loss of life for British
:03:05. > :03:07.forces. The five personnel who died when the Lynx helicopter came down
:03:08. > :03:11.have not been named, though their families have been informed. In a
:03:12. > :03:27.statement, the Ministry of Defence said:
:03:28. > :03:32.The Prime Minister, David Cameron, who visited Afghanistan recently,
:03:33. > :03:37.said his heart went out to the families and friends of those
:03:38. > :03:41.killed. The helicopter crashed in Kandahar province. The Taliban
:03:42. > :03:46.claimed to have shot it down, but the MoD says it was an accident. The
:03:47. > :03:51.priority is to find the cause, in case there are wider implications
:03:52. > :03:58.for the rest of the fleet. Every helicopter is vital. If you have to
:03:59. > :04:02.ground a portion of the fleet because you don't know if they are
:04:03. > :04:06.safe, that's not good news. The MoD says the wreckage has been located
:04:07. > :04:07.and secured and is being examined for clues as to what caused the
:04:08. > :04:11.crash. More than a million pilgrims are
:04:12. > :04:14.expected in Rome today for an open air ceremony in St Peter's Square,
:04:15. > :04:19.where both living popes will declare two of their predecessors saints.
:04:20. > :04:23.The Vatican has confirmed that the former Pope Benedict will join Pope
:04:24. > :04:36.Francis, in officiating at the canonisation.
:04:37. > :04:49.Joy in the Vatican as they declare two of their own, already in heaven.
:04:50. > :04:58.The canonisation of John Paul II is the quickest ever. He travelled the
:04:59. > :05:04.world as an evangelist, but critics claim he was also an authoritarian
:05:05. > :05:08.who closed down discussion. John XXIII modernised the church and
:05:09. > :05:12.opened it to the world. Normally, a saint must have caused two miracles.
:05:13. > :05:17.Pope Francis said that good Pope John needed only one. Making a saint
:05:18. > :05:22.of John Paul II alone would have created a traditional model for the
:05:23. > :05:28.papacy. Pope Francis has been very canny. By promoting the cause of
:05:29. > :05:36.John XXIII, one of the great reformers. Bringing in Pope John
:05:37. > :05:40.XXIII, he is also pointing to a kind of pontificate much like his own,
:05:41. > :05:45.much more humble and open. Pope Francis wants to reform his church
:05:46. > :05:48.but reunited as well. These two contrasting Saints could help him to
:05:49. > :05:51.do so. The South Korean Prime Minister
:05:52. > :05:55.Chung Hong-won has resigned over the handling of the country's worst
:05:56. > :05:58.ferry disaster. All 15 crew members from the ferry, which sank ten days
:05:59. > :06:03.ago, are now in custody following the arrest of four more sailors. 187
:06:04. > :06:12.bodies have been recovered from the vessel. At least a 115 people are
:06:13. > :06:15.still missing. It's emerged that the policeman at
:06:16. > :06:18.the centre of the plebgate dispute involving the former Government
:06:19. > :06:21.Chief Whip, Andrew Mitchell is seeking libel damages from him of up
:06:22. > :06:25.to ?200,000. PC Toby Rowland is suing Mr Mitchell for suggesting he
:06:26. > :06:29.was not telling the truth about the row at the gates of Downing Street.
:06:30. > :06:34.Mr Mitchell has always denied calling the police officers plebs.
:06:35. > :06:37.The former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams has said that Britain
:06:38. > :06:41.is a post-Christian country and that a further decline in the influence
:06:42. > :06:45.of the Church is likely in the years ahead. In an interview with the
:06:46. > :06:48.Sunday Telegraph newspaper, Lord Williams of Oystermouth also warns
:06:49. > :06:53.that the era of regular and widespread worship is over. His
:06:54. > :06:58.comments follow David Cameron's recent decision to speak out about
:06:59. > :07:02.his faith. That's all from me, for now. I'll be back with the headlines
:07:03. > :07:10.just before ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew.
:07:11. > :07:14.Many thanks. As usual, to the front pages, a smorgasbord of different
:07:15. > :07:19.stories. The most dramatic political story is the Sunday Times, UKIP's
:07:20. > :07:24.surge into the lead rocks the Conservatives. That shows UKIP head
:07:25. > :07:27.of Labour and way ahead of the Conservatives. The Sunday Telegraph
:07:28. > :07:32.has gone with the helicopter story that we saw just now. There is also
:07:33. > :07:35.a story at the bottom, we are a post-Christian nation. That is the
:07:36. > :07:42.former Archbishop of Canterbury, based on a poll that shows that just
:07:43. > :07:46.14% of people regard themselves as practising Christians, although
:07:47. > :07:53.another 30% say they are non-practising Christians. 41% are
:07:54. > :07:59.nonreligious. The Independent on Sunday asks Will nothing think Nigel
:08:00. > :08:05.Farage, the answer will be no. This is about obesity in children. This
:08:06. > :08:12.looks like the ultimate UKIP supporter, but it is in fact a chef,
:08:13. > :08:23.Fergus Henderson, who leaves in nose to tail eating, he enjoys offal.
:08:24. > :08:28.Peter Connelly you are going to start with UKIP? The Sunday Times
:08:29. > :08:35.has this poll, which does not surprise me, UKIP surging. The
:08:36. > :08:42.anti-politician mood in the country is so big, UKIP bar and bring this
:08:43. > :08:48.up. It's not just Tory voters? Not just Tory voters, but mainly. It's
:08:49. > :08:51.mainly at the expense of the Tories, being pushed way back into third
:08:52. > :09:04.place. UKIP narrowly ahead of Labour. The Sun picked this up,
:09:05. > :09:07.despite the fact that Nigel Farage has been criticised over expenses,
:09:08. > :09:16.despite the fact that UKIP members have called women shuts, they blame
:09:17. > :09:20.flooding on gay marriage, they: Lenny Henry to go home when he is as
:09:21. > :09:31.British as anyone else, it is like Teflon, nothing sticks. In the
:09:32. > :09:35.Guardian he said he was going after Labour voters. He wants to force the
:09:36. > :09:40.Labour Party to concede to a referendum. Is that going to happen?
:09:41. > :09:44.Ed Miliband made it clear if there is going to be a repatriation of
:09:45. > :09:49.powers, there will be a referendum. The only party that has called a
:09:50. > :09:56.referendum on Europe. I don't think Nigel Farage's success is going to
:09:57. > :09:59.affect Labour on referendums at all. Interesting, the thing about Nigel
:10:00. > :10:03.Farage is that he's quite a character. I think you are right,
:10:04. > :10:07.the troubled now with politics is that a lot of politicians talk, but
:10:08. > :10:14.they are not really saying anything to the electorate. The justification
:10:15. > :10:19.is paramount. Nigel Farage says, yes, he has been a silly chap, I've
:10:20. > :10:22.got rid of him and we will move on. Everybody goes, my God, how
:10:23. > :10:29.refreshing. That is the only thing that is going on, really. We can
:10:30. > :10:33.hear more from him next week. The new political editor in the Sunday
:10:34. > :10:39.Times has said that Tory plotters are circling because of UKIP around
:10:40. > :10:46.Cameron. The only thing that is saving him at the moment is the
:10:47. > :10:49.upturn in the economy. One of the target is a great big blonde object,
:10:50. > :11:00.paddling furiously through the shallows? He's in about every paper,
:11:01. > :11:05.all of the stories differ. He's sort of another anti-politician? Sort of,
:11:06. > :11:10.less eccentric than he makes outcome in private. He's very endearing,
:11:11. > :11:15.again. When he is at home, you think he brushes his hair? I think he
:11:16. > :11:19.might. The Mail on Sunday refer back to this rather famous dinner that
:11:20. > :11:22.Michael Gove was that, where he had a couple of glasses of wine and
:11:23. > :11:26.started saying that Boris isn't all he seems. He says he will not be
:11:27. > :11:29.much good because he is indecisive. Boris has slapped him down and said,
:11:30. > :11:35.concentrate on your own job and don't worry about gossip. Here,
:11:36. > :11:41.hacking up Michael Gove, top Tories are losing patience because Boris is
:11:42. > :11:48.dithering over a Commons seat. It makes him look indecisive. Here, in
:11:49. > :11:53.the Sunday Times, they are saying that Boris has found a way to be an
:11:54. > :11:58.MP and stay on, finish as Mayor of London, by saying he will not be a
:11:59. > :12:09.Cabinet Minister. That will then place him, if it happens, ready to
:12:10. > :12:12.pounce, has and -- as and when. It says here, there is only one reason
:12:13. > :12:17.why he is eyeing a seat in the house, because he does not expect
:12:18. > :12:20.the Tories to win and then he will be well-placed to take over as
:12:21. > :12:25.leader. I do wonder why anybody wants to be politician. In the Mail
:12:26. > :12:31.on Sunday we have a new culture secretary, saying that when he was a
:12:32. > :12:34.city banker, the bonus he received was channelled through a tax haven.
:12:35. > :12:39.It's already starting on the new guy.
:12:40. > :12:44.He has basically said the Presto need to worry about regulation? In
:12:45. > :12:48.terms of the press, it's a huge victory? Absolutely, but it makes me
:12:49. > :12:53.think, why would you go into politics? At birth, you have to
:12:54. > :12:56.decide you should be a politician and completely edit your life
:12:57. > :13:00.accordingly so it is unblemished in every way so that when you do go
:13:01. > :13:06.into office nobody can write anything about you. Leaving few of
:13:07. > :13:12.us able to stand? I certainly wouldn't. Unblemished Peter Hain? I
:13:13. > :13:16.had political form, as one Labour person told me, because of my
:13:17. > :13:23.anti-apartheid acts. We'll talk about that in a moment. Roland
:13:24. > :13:27.Williams gives a very interesting interview in the Sunday Telegraph in
:13:28. > :13:35.this case. -- Rowan Williams. He says we are a post-Christian nation.
:13:36. > :13:41.He said 14% of us regard as practising Christians, but we regard
:13:42. > :13:44.ourselves as a Christian country. We don't think we are Christians, but
:13:45. > :13:49.we want to live in a society where people behave as if they are. I am
:13:50. > :13:53.agnostic, but I think a lot of the values that my parents taught me
:13:54. > :14:01.were actually Christian values, even though my dad is an atheist.
:14:02. > :14:11.Christianity basically needs the Pope's PR. Everybody out on the
:14:12. > :14:16.street, hurray! Anglicans don't have the same pizzazz. But they have a
:14:17. > :14:22.very good poet. There is a poem by the former archbishop, a jolly good
:14:23. > :14:26.poem, inside the paper. But the faith structure is still being
:14:27. > :14:29.taught in schools. And absolutely it should be. Even if you don't go to
:14:30. > :14:34.church, if you use that faith structure you are following a
:14:35. > :14:37.Christian way of life. Speaking of famous Christians, William
:14:38. > :14:46.Shakespeare, probably a Catholic, actually. Yes, 450 years old this
:14:47. > :14:50.week. I absolutely love this story. Apparently there is a bit of an
:14:51. > :14:53.argument brewing at the Palace between Prince Phillip and Prince
:14:54. > :14:58.Charles. Who would cross Prince Phillip? Certainly not me, having
:14:59. > :15:00.met him a couple times. He apparently thinks Shakespeare was
:15:01. > :15:06.not responsible for all of his plays and that possibly Sir Henry Neville
:15:07. > :15:10.might have been. Prince Charles, apparently, is very much of the view
:15:11. > :15:13.that Shakespeare did write all of his plays. One expert has been
:15:14. > :15:19.called in by Prince Charles to produce arguments to back up his
:15:20. > :15:22.theory. I do lath this one here, expert Stanley Wells, who has
:15:23. > :15:26.written in defence of Shakespeare's authorship, said he had crossed
:15:27. > :15:34.swords with Prince Phillip. He recalled asking the Prince if he was
:15:35. > :15:45.a heretic, only to be told, all the more so after reading your book.
:15:46. > :15:50.From Shakespeare to current day skulduggery, this is the great story
:15:51. > :15:56.that has been occupying the papers. The whole weekend's papers have been
:15:57. > :16:03.dominated by Ryan Giggs, doing very well yesterday. I cannot help but
:16:04. > :16:16.feel sorry for David Moyes, a decent man. He looks haunted. This talks
:16:17. > :16:22.about the skulduggery that went on. It is the nearest thing we get to a
:16:23. > :16:28.public execution, this disembodied career dangling. If I were him, I
:16:29. > :16:34.would take my 48 squillion pounds payoff, and say, so what. My husband
:16:35. > :16:43.is a football fan, he is obsessed with this story. Rolling news, and
:16:44. > :16:48.it is like Groundhog Day. You would have sympathy for my wife because
:16:49. > :16:52.she feels the same about me, I am a Chelsea fan. You must never forget
:16:53. > :16:58.the quote from Bill Shankly, he said, people say to me football is a
:16:59. > :17:05.matter of life and death but they don't understand... It is far more
:17:06. > :17:14.important than that! You have something about Simon Cowell. Yes,
:17:15. > :17:21.it turns out that not all he touches turns to gold. According to the
:17:22. > :17:27.Sunday Mirror, the musical that he invested in, called I Can't Sing is
:17:28. > :17:35.going to close after only two months, which is very sad for the
:17:36. > :17:40.cast involved. Not so sad for the national culture perhaps. Some of
:17:41. > :17:51.these survive and some don't, so what is the key? There is one moving
:17:52. > :17:57.story recently about the Afghan voting, off the back of the tragic
:17:58. > :18:07.helicopter crash. Yes, this paper makes the point that it was Harry's
:18:08. > :18:12.comrades. It is right at the end of the British involvement in
:18:13. > :18:16.Afghanistan and it is still killing our people. On the other hand a few
:18:17. > :18:27.weeks ago we had this incredible surge to the polls in the elections.
:18:28. > :18:33.Women being told they shouldn't vote by the Taliban, and they chose to
:18:34. > :18:39.anyway. 20 years ago to this day was the big South African vote after the
:18:40. > :18:46.end of apartheid, wasn't it? Yes, I remember being a Parliamentary
:18:47. > :18:50.observer outside Soweto, watching these people queueing to vote for
:18:51. > :19:01.the first time in their lives, and then of course Nelson Mandela was
:19:02. > :19:04.elected. We are celebrating today with the new film. Let's have a very
:19:05. > :19:22.quick clip of that. We, as individual musicians, we are
:19:23. > :19:27.just musicians, and we are endorsing something together so it is really
:19:28. > :19:36.nice because it had that little twist. That is Annie Lennox. Peter,
:19:37. > :19:42.that was an extraordinary moment of hope and optimism, but 20 years on
:19:43. > :19:45.things look a little bit tougher, certainly for the ANC with stories
:19:46. > :19:51.of corruption and problems and challenges to the leadership. What
:19:52. > :19:56.is your take? They have achieved a great deal, electricity and running
:19:57. > :20:02.water. It is a joyous country to visit but the ANC is in big trouble
:20:03. > :20:06.with its grass roots. The enrichment of the black elite and the poverty
:20:07. > :20:10.that still remains, it has got to stand up and meet that challenge and
:20:11. > :20:15.I'm not sure its leadership can do so, in which case it will have a
:20:16. > :20:22.very tough time following the election. What is interesting, the
:20:23. > :20:27.freedom fighters are coming up. You have interviewed this guide, he is
:20:28. > :20:32.seen as a big threat to South Africa? He is a populist and an
:20:33. > :20:38.opportunist but he is very clever and speaks for the disenfranchised
:20:39. > :20:44.poor. A story to keep watching for the future. Thank you very much
:20:45. > :20:47.indeed for that. The past few days have seen some
:20:48. > :20:51.spring sunshine, and a good few April showers too. Par for the
:20:52. > :20:54.course, I suppose. But what can we expect for the rest of the weekend?
:20:55. > :21:04.I was promised a heatwave! Over to Darren Bett in the weather studio.
:21:05. > :21:08.We have this band of cloud producing rain and drizzle, these are the
:21:09. > :21:13.showers in the south. They have been there all night, all morning and
:21:14. > :21:22.will continue across much of the day, pushing northwards. Some heavy
:21:23. > :21:26.rain across Wales actually. Increasing amounts of cloud coming
:21:27. > :21:31.into Scotland and north-east England, making it feel cold in
:21:32. > :21:35.these areas. We will see more rain in these areas overnight, edging
:21:36. > :21:38.towards Northern Ireland by the night. Further south, those showers
:21:39. > :21:48.will tend to fade away from most places. A lot of low cloud and a
:21:49. > :21:53.misty start to Monday. It brightens up in the south so it will trigger a
:21:54. > :21:59.few more of those showers, some slow, heavy moving downpours and
:22:00. > :22:04.maybe some in the Midlands as well. When the sun is out, it could be
:22:05. > :22:09.very warm in the north of Scotland. Next week, staying very unsettled.
:22:10. > :22:14.Further showers, longer spells of rain and it looks like it will turn
:22:15. > :22:20.colder by the end of the week, but at least we will get more sunshine.
:22:21. > :22:25.President Obama has warned Russia that it must stop what he calls its
:22:26. > :22:33.destabilising activities in eastern Ukraine. It is convinced Russia is
:22:34. > :22:47.provoking unrest, but will the new international sanctions influence
:22:48. > :22:52.President Putin's calculations? I am joined now by Steve Rosenberg. There
:22:53. > :23:00.is an anxious mood on both sides, people thinking the Russians will
:23:01. > :23:03.invade. That's right, fears are growing, and when you consider the
:23:04. > :23:10.Russian military build-up near the border with Ukraine, and if you
:23:11. > :23:18.listen to the rhetoric, the comments being made this week, things like"
:23:19. > :23:28.the Russian machine must be stopped". You feel the momentum is
:23:29. > :23:34.building to some kind of Russian military intervention. Is it
:23:35. > :23:39.inevitable? It isn't but certainly possible. What happens if the
:23:40. > :23:46.Russian tanks roll over the border? Will there be war? Will the
:23:47. > :23:50.Ukrainians fight? It is a difficult question and in recent weeks there
:23:51. > :23:56.has been a sense of the Ukrainian army has been demoralised and in the
:23:57. > :24:00.state of disarray. After the ease with which pro-Russian armed groups
:24:01. > :24:14.have been able to take over government buildings in eastern
:24:15. > :24:19.Ukraine. But the Government in Kiev has said it will fight and put up
:24:20. > :24:24.resistance. They have been conducting what they describe as a
:24:25. > :24:30.counterterrorism operation across the region. So is this crisis moving
:24:31. > :24:33.towards a stage where a conflict on Europe's borders is inevitable? I'm
:24:34. > :24:40.joined by Ukraine's ambassador in London, Volodymyr Khandogiy. I
:24:41. > :24:52.suppose my first question is what happens if those tanks to roll over
:24:53. > :24:54.the border? I am confident that Ukraine's Armed Forces will fight
:24:55. > :25:00.and that should be clear to everyone, it in particular the
:25:01. > :25:06.Russians. Can you really stop the Russians taking over the east of the
:25:07. > :25:11.country if they want to? That is a hypothetical question but I think
:25:12. > :25:17.Ukraine would need help from wherever it might come to stop the
:25:18. > :25:23.Russians. It will be very difficult for the Ukraine alone to fight such
:25:24. > :25:28.a big country. What to look for from NATO and the other Western
:25:29. > :25:39.organisations? We think it is very important that the OAC presents is
:25:40. > :25:55.there. Let them flood the country. This is an organisation that is
:25:56. > :26:03.locked in a dungeon somewhere. Yes, they have been kept by pro-Russian
:26:04. > :26:13.forces. They are not exactly the monitors from the OAC but they are
:26:14. > :26:18.in the country in accordance with the Vienna document. Do you know the
:26:19. > :26:25.conditions in which they are being kept? We don't have any information
:26:26. > :26:29.on that. You are going to take back some of the buildings that have been
:26:30. > :26:39.taken by pro-Russian forces, but we haven't seen much of that actually
:26:40. > :26:44.happening. The counterterrorism operation is ongoing. We don't want
:26:45. > :26:48.to harm the innocent civilians, which is why the operation is not
:26:49. > :26:53.that effective as one could have expected but it is going on. There
:26:54. > :26:59.are certain steps. I don't want to comment on the military side but it
:27:00. > :27:03.is going on but I am confident it will bring results. If Russia
:27:04. > :27:07.doesn't move over the border with troops, are you going to look to
:27:08. > :27:16.NATO and the west for military support? It is really up to the
:27:17. > :27:21.west, what kind of support they will offer. Ukraine will be looking for
:27:22. > :27:25.their support. We are not talking at this stage for any direct military
:27:26. > :27:29.involvement from the NATO countries or from the west in general, but
:27:30. > :27:36.certainly at this stage we are talking about materials, non-lethal
:27:37. > :27:42.equipment that might be provided. It is on the same sort of scale of
:27:43. > :27:50.Belgium taking on the Empire in the First World War. Ukraine certainly
:27:51. > :27:56.is looking for international support, but coming back to square
:27:57. > :28:05.one we are prepared and we are ready to use all the necessary means to
:28:06. > :28:11.fight. What would you like the west to do that it hasn't been doing
:28:12. > :28:17.until now? We still have two explore all possible diplomatic steps. We
:28:18. > :28:24.have to talk about further economic sanctions against the aggressor so
:28:25. > :28:28.there are instruments at the disposal of Western countries to go
:28:29. > :28:36.ahead. Russia says again and again that the government in Kiev is not
:28:37. > :28:43.legitimate. That can be ended when there are elections in Ukraine, how
:28:44. > :28:46.long before they take place? We have a legitimate government now and
:28:47. > :28:53.those allegations are ridiculous, but the elections will take
:28:54. > :28:58.place... The election of the president will take place on the
:28:59. > :29:04.25th of May and this is something that will reinforce the legitimacy
:29:05. > :29:07.of the presidential office. Do you think the crisis is at its most
:29:08. > :29:13.serious before the election takes place perhaps? I think the immediate
:29:14. > :29:19.objective is to disrupt these elections so we have to ensure these
:29:20. > :29:25.elections will take place. Do you think the new sanctions will
:29:26. > :29:30.make any difference? Yes, we have to think about the sanctions which are
:29:31. > :29:34.painful, not simply the nominal steps but painful sanctions. They
:29:35. > :29:42.are there, we all know them, and the issue is how to introduce them. I
:29:43. > :29:48.read that tomorrow will be for the negotiation on that issue. A lot of
:29:49. > :29:51.people looking from the outside here Ukrainian and Russian spoken in
:29:52. > :29:54.Ukraine and they look at the Orthodox churches and the
:29:55. > :30:04.traditions, and they say what is the difference between Ukraine and
:30:05. > :30:11.Russia? Well, a former President of Ukraine wrote a book and the title
:30:12. > :30:19.was Russia Is Not Ukraine. And vice versa, Ukraine is not Russia.
:30:20. > :30:24.Historically, cultural, although we are very close, and I have to say
:30:25. > :30:29.that, these are two nations. Would it be so disastrous if the eastern
:30:30. > :30:34.Ukraine, more Russian speaking, did succeed? Could you live with it, in
:30:35. > :30:38.the end? I don't want to comment on that, I am a firm believer that
:30:39. > :30:41.nothing of that sort would happen. Thank you very much indeed for
:30:42. > :30:44.coming to talk to us. The Green Party launches its
:30:45. > :30:46.campaign for the European elections tomorrow. There'll be a focus on
:30:47. > :30:50.policies for the environment, obviously. And a lot of talk about
:30:51. > :30:53.how the Greens differ from the established parties. But they're not
:30:54. > :30:57.the only ones making that pitch, it's a big theme with UKIP, too. I'm
:30:58. > :31:01.joined now by the Greens' leader, Natalie Bennett. Welcome. Thanks for
:31:02. > :31:04.coming in. If one looks at the pitch you are making, there is a great
:31:05. > :31:13.deal about fracking. It seems to have become one of your great
:31:14. > :31:16.causes, recently? That is certainly an issue I identify with. But it's
:31:17. > :31:20.more broader than that, our society is not working for the common good.
:31:21. > :31:28.We are talking about good jobs that pay a living wage, fighting against
:31:29. > :31:32.privatisation, the kind of rush privatisation that I will be talking
:31:33. > :31:42.about later. And issues of climate change which climate change and
:31:43. > :31:46.fracking as part of. If we go to the chair of Cuadrilla, he says, we will
:31:47. > :31:50.know in five years if we have gas that we can get through fracking in
:31:51. > :31:53.Britain. It may never get off the ground anyway. But there is also
:31:54. > :31:58.massive public resistance to it. We have been very much there on the
:31:59. > :32:01.front line, supporting campaigners. When it comes to the European Union,
:32:02. > :32:05.you are in favour of the free movement of people and particularly
:32:06. > :32:08.people coming in and getting full access to public services. You are
:32:09. > :32:12.on the unpopular side of the argument, it seems? I think a lot of
:32:13. > :32:18.people acknowledge that immigrants coming from the EU contribute a lot
:32:19. > :32:22.to Britain. We have the option of a great number of Britons, and almost
:32:23. > :32:25.equal number of Britons, living in the European Union as we have here.
:32:26. > :32:30.We also have to respect the rights of refugees, the rights of British
:32:31. > :32:34.people with foreign spouses. At the moment, with our immigration policy,
:32:35. > :32:38.we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. This year, the number of
:32:39. > :32:41.foreign students applying to British universities has gone down and that
:32:42. > :32:46.is a huge cost that has come from our immigration policy. You say you
:32:47. > :32:50.are in favour of national minorities and regions. I know that the Green
:32:51. > :32:54.Party in Scotland are part of the yes campaign. Is that the case for
:32:55. > :32:58.the Green Party generally? Very much so. We believe that we need to, in
:32:59. > :33:03.terms of the broader European Union, we need to spec the principle of
:33:04. > :33:07.single or tea. We need a reformed European Union where people make
:33:08. > :33:10.more decisions locally, just as we need a more democratic European
:33:11. > :33:15.Union and one that is not working for big multinational countries but
:33:16. > :33:20.for the interests of people. So no EU and US free trade deal. All of
:33:21. > :33:24.the stories about the European elections are about the rise of
:33:25. > :33:28.Nigel Farage and UKIP. Are you pitching yourselves as the anti-UKIP
:33:29. > :33:34.party? I would very much put it as that. UKIP is the party of fear. Be
:33:35. > :33:39.fearful, vote for us. We are saying, hope for a better society,
:33:40. > :33:42.vote Green. This is proportional representation. We are part of the
:33:43. > :33:45.fourth largest group in European Parliament. We are making a
:33:46. > :33:53.difference, doing the work in Europe and not just being anti-Europe. The
:33:54. > :33:55.greens are very powerful in Germany and other European countries. Is it
:33:56. > :34:00.a representational issue that means that they haven't really broken
:34:01. > :34:02.through in this country? You have had local successes, but nothing
:34:03. > :34:07.like the success greens across the continent have had? We have a first
:34:08. > :34:12.past the post system, but we have shown that we can beat that. We
:34:13. > :34:19.elected Caroline Lucas in Brighton Pavilion. That means anywhere else
:34:20. > :34:24.in the country can do that as well. We run Brighton and Hove Council, we
:34:25. > :34:29.are likely to be the opposition in Solihull after the elections. We are
:34:30. > :34:33.making advances. But the European elections are proportional, every
:34:34. > :34:36.vote counts. The other parties have funding from rich people, the
:34:37. > :34:41.unions, have you got any money at all? We have two things, money from
:34:42. > :34:47.members and supporters, we are not talking about rich people, but every
:34:48. > :34:50.?5 or ?10 count. What we have is a shoe leather enthusiasm. We have a
:34:51. > :34:53.lot of people on the ground, delivering newsletters and knocking
:34:54. > :34:56.on doors. Tom Hollander's career has
:34:57. > :35:03.encompassed some of the best comedy and drama, huge hits like In The
:35:04. > :35:10.Loop and Pirates of the Caribbean. The latest series of the BBC's drama
:35:11. > :35:16.Rev mingles comedy with serious cultural issues like gay marriage.
:35:17. > :35:22.He plays a troubled inner-city vicar, but he can soon be seen soon
:35:23. > :35:25.in an entirely different role as the great Dylan Thomas. The drama
:35:26. > :35:29.follows the Welsh poet on his final journey to New York where his demons
:35:30. > :35:33.destroyed him. Tom is here to talk about both these roles, but first
:35:34. > :35:34.here he is in a tricky situation as Rev Adam Smallbone.
:35:35. > :35:40.Robert and Jeremy. Earlier today you committed yourself to one another in
:35:41. > :35:44.a union, not here, but at the town hall. We're married! No, you're not.
:35:45. > :35:49.Yes, we are. No, you aren't. Yes, sort of. You were, not here, as it's
:35:50. > :35:53.against the law. No, it's not. Yes, no, it's against church law. So,
:35:54. > :35:56.what we're doing here is celebrating your intention to be together, for
:35:57. > :35:59.better for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health
:36:00. > :36:05.and to love and to cherish till death do you part. I do. No, you
:36:06. > :36:17.don't. Lots of gritty issues, that is just
:36:18. > :36:22.one of them. I have to Askew, are you yourself a Christian? A lot of
:36:23. > :36:24.Christians have said it is a great representation of the problems
:36:25. > :36:31.facing the Anglican faith that the moment. I feel that I am... By
:36:32. > :36:35.definition, a Christian, because I grew up in a Christian country. That
:36:36. > :36:38.defines itself as a Christian country in the same way as we define
:36:39. > :36:44.ourselves as Ada Mock is you. Whether I believe in a... -- a
:36:45. > :36:49.democracy come whether I believe in a deity, I'm not sure, that's hard.
:36:50. > :36:54.I do believe there is an overriding principle of love which we might as
:36:55. > :36:58.well believe in because the alternative is despair. In that
:36:59. > :37:03.sense, I would describe myself as a Christian. Talking of love, this is
:37:04. > :37:13.a project of love for you. This means a lot to you? Yes, it has
:37:14. > :37:17.evolved like that. It means a lot to me because it takes a lot of work. I
:37:18. > :37:21.like the people I do it with and it's been a great success. I didn't
:37:22. > :37:31.go, I am a Christian, I must tell the story of the Church of England.
:37:32. > :37:38.A lot of vicars around the country relate to it. The vicar is not
:37:39. > :37:50.detected as a buffoon, that is why it has gone down well. -- depicted.
:37:51. > :37:55.It is a fallible man, but a good man trying to do the right thing. It's
:37:56. > :37:59.not Shakespeare, if it was, we would call it a problem play. It is funny
:38:00. > :38:10.and then it gets dark and serious, then it gets funny again. It is a
:38:11. > :38:13.drama comedy, as they say. The papers are reporting the former
:38:14. > :38:18.Archbishop of Canterbury saying that Britain is not a Christian country.
:38:19. > :38:23.People go to church, surrounded by wonderful churches, a lot of them
:38:24. > :38:26.are falling down. What is your feeling about the condition of
:38:27. > :38:32.Christianity in the country? One of the reasons... What they did have a
:38:33. > :38:39.strong feeling about with Rev is that I wanted to detect one of our
:38:40. > :38:43.institutions that is moth-eaten and degraded from what it once was. In
:38:44. > :38:47.some ways, a metaphor for the country as a whole, the old
:38:48. > :38:52.institutions. Obviously it is a very vibrant country with exciting things
:38:53. > :38:55.happening in it. Very few people vote, but we still describe
:38:56. > :38:58.ourselves as a democracy. These are old ways that we think of ourselves,
:38:59. > :39:03.in transition and becoming something else. With hanging onto? The fact
:39:04. > :39:07.that people don't go to church does not mean we are not a Christian
:39:08. > :39:14.society, we are because the Queen is the head of state, the Church of
:39:15. > :39:19.England. We just had an Easter holiday, we got Monday off because
:39:20. > :39:25.Christ died. We celebrate Christmas. Our law is based on rusty and
:39:26. > :39:30.morality. We are all aspiring to the Ten Commandments, to be nice, to
:39:31. > :39:35.give to charity, to love our neighbours, ourselves, all of those
:39:36. > :39:39.principles are Christian principles. So we are a Christian society? I
:39:40. > :39:44.think we are, until somebody comes up with a better idea. This is
:39:45. > :39:49.getting better and better, is there going to be a fourth series? We'll
:39:50. > :39:54.see. Maybe. All right. Let's turn to Dylan Thomas. I would like people to
:39:55. > :39:58.see a little clip of you. This is you reading one of his great poems.
:39:59. > :40:01.Now as I was young and easy, under the apple boughs, about the lilting
:40:02. > :40:07.house and happy as the grass was green, the night above the dingle
:40:08. > :40:10.starry, time let me hail and climb. Golden in the heydays of his eyes,
:40:11. > :40:18.and honoured among wagons, I was prince of the apple towns. And once
:40:19. > :40:21.below a time I lordly had the trees and leaves trail with daisies and
:40:22. > :40:36.barley, down the rivers of the windfall light. The lovely thing
:40:37. > :40:40.about this play is that you do a lot of poetry in it. You don't forget he
:40:41. > :40:45.was a poet at all. This was about the last few weeks of his life, when
:40:46. > :40:49.he is destroying himself with drink and misbehaviour of different kinds.
:40:50. > :40:55.Do you think in the end, the myth of Dylan, the alcoholic young guy who
:40:56. > :40:59.destroys himself, that is the most important thing about him? No, I
:41:00. > :41:04.think, ultimately, the most important thing about him has to be
:41:05. > :41:09.his poetry, which is very beautiful. He is a particular favourite of
:41:10. > :41:17.yours? I wanted to play the part, what I was drawn to was the idea of
:41:18. > :41:21.a man who lives at such extremity and destroys himself. That is very
:41:22. > :41:25.compelling. This is a life, possibly, without redemption. There
:41:26. > :41:30.is redemption in his work. There was no happy ending for Dylan Thomas. Is
:41:31. > :41:35.this partly because he never grew up? A lot of the film flashes back
:41:36. > :41:39.to his childhood. Some of this beautiful stuff that he writes is
:41:40. > :41:43.about the loss of childhood. This is a man who cannot CB and his youth.
:41:44. > :41:49.He cannot see his way into middle age. -- see beyond his youth. He
:41:50. > :41:52.commits a sort of slow suicide. He is also the beginning of rock and
:41:53. > :41:57.roll, a principle that my generation, the generation before
:41:58. > :42:02.me, which has become very attractive in the modern age. You live with
:42:03. > :42:10.such extremity, unrestricted. John Lennon, you know, Bob Dylan, Dylan
:42:11. > :42:16.Thomas. The force that through the green fuse drives the flower, drives
:42:17. > :42:20.my green age, that blasts the roots of trees is my destroyer. The thing
:42:21. > :42:24.that drives you forward to live is also killing you. There has been a
:42:25. > :42:29.lot of comment about how you've changed physically. You had to bulk
:42:30. > :42:35.up. I'm more interested in the voice. You don't sound very Welsh,
:42:36. > :42:41.but it turns out that nor did Ellen Thomas. That was the relief when I
:42:42. > :42:46.was offered the part, he sounded BBC English. With a little bit of Welsh.
:42:47. > :42:50.I think when we think of Dylan Thomas, we think of Richard Burton
:42:51. > :42:58.and assume he sounded like him? Less butch, more fruity. You don't spare
:42:59. > :43:06.his reputation, in the sense that he behaved very vision -- viciously,
:43:07. > :43:11.particularly to his agent and why? We don't see him behaving viciously
:43:12. > :43:18.to his wife. He is a man that is unwell. This is a man that is
:43:19. > :43:24.pre-Priory. He is an alcoholic in the last stages of his addiction and
:43:25. > :43:29.he is destroying himself. The person he is least kind to is himself. One
:43:30. > :43:37.of your earliest great roles, which very few people saw, where a young
:43:38. > :43:41.Nick Clegg took part as well, how good an actor is he? You have to be
:43:42. > :43:47.quite a good actor to be in politics, don't you? Probably.
:43:48. > :43:52.Everyone saw how good Tony Blair was on the Catherine Tate show, it was a
:43:53. > :43:58.great revelation. I think he had done a very good production of The
:43:59. > :44:06.Normal Heart Of, when we were there. We were in Bergerac together, but I
:44:07. > :44:11.don't remember, really. I was just trying to remember my lines. Do you
:44:12. > :44:14.still keep in touch at all? We share a goddaughter we occasionally see
:44:15. > :44:21.each other at her mother's parties. Thank you for joining us.
:44:22. > :44:25.David Cameron said he could sum up his priority for government in three
:44:26. > :44:27.letters, NHS. At a time of unprecedented austerity, the Health
:44:28. > :44:31.Service budget has been protected. And yet, the demands on the system,
:44:32. > :44:36.and the expectations of patients, keep rising. Big decisions lie
:44:37. > :44:39.ahead. Should health continue to be favoured, at the expense of other
:44:40. > :44:43.departments? Or, if we value the NHS so much - and it's been called a
:44:44. > :44:47.national religion - should we be prepared to pay more for it, through
:44:48. > :44:56.taxes or charges, perhaps, to see the GP? The Health Secretary Jeremy
:44:57. > :45:01.Hunt is with me now. I have great ambitions for this interview, I hope
:45:02. > :45:08.we don't have one of those conversations where I save the NHS
:45:09. > :45:13.is terrible and you disagree and we are like ships meeting in the night.
:45:14. > :45:19.There are some fantastic things in the NHS and some very profound
:45:20. > :45:22.problems, and my job is to lead the NHS in tackling those problems.
:45:23. > :45:30.Money is one of those big ones which I'm sure you want to ask me about.
:45:31. > :45:35.All the way through its history it has enjoyed way above inflation real
:45:36. > :45:40.term increases year after year, and the last few years you have in
:45:41. > :45:43.effect frozen the increases. The roof has not fallen in but there are
:45:44. > :45:52.a lot of cracks in the system, and my big question is for how long can
:45:53. > :45:56.we carry on with an ageing population and more treatments
:45:57. > :46:05.coming in? It cannot go on like this, can it? One of the reasons the
:46:06. > :46:14.roof has not fallen in is because of the incredibly hard work of the
:46:15. > :46:19.staff on the front line. People in hospitals and GP surgeries are
:46:20. > :46:24.working very, very hard. But you're right, money is very tight and
:46:25. > :46:27.although the budget was protected and we were only able to protect
:46:28. > :46:34.that budget because we took some very difficult decisions on the
:46:35. > :46:38.economy, which means we are able to continue and slightly increase the
:46:39. > :46:42.NHS budget, but even despite that we are having to take very difficult
:46:43. > :46:48.decisions because of the ageing population, demand growing around 4%
:46:49. > :46:53.every year, and that's why it's necessary to have painful and
:46:54. > :46:58.difficult reforms. One of the big issues is social care, we have a
:46:59. > :47:02.completely broken backed system. We have one set of people mostly from
:47:03. > :47:08.local government looking after social care, and the NHS looking
:47:09. > :47:12.after healthcare, and they are bleeding into each other. Isn't the
:47:13. > :47:18.Labour Party right that they have to be brought together under a single
:47:19. > :47:22.umbrella? He is right, but the differences the Labour Party didn't
:47:23. > :47:26.do that when they were in power. Moving away from the party politics
:47:27. > :47:32.for a moment, the big reform that we need in the NHS if it is going to be
:47:33. > :47:37.sustainable in coming years is to transform out-of-hospital care. The
:47:38. > :47:42.NHS model, and I think you saw this when you had your stroke, I don't
:47:43. > :47:47.know if we are allowed to talk about Jonathan Ross on the BBC but I saw a
:47:48. > :47:53.very moving interview you gave to him when you talked about how
:47:54. > :47:59.fantastic the hospital care was, but how disappointing... It is a money
:48:00. > :48:06.issue, we need lots of neuro physiotherapy, and it does come back
:48:07. > :48:09.to money. Yes, but it is also false economy not to invest in
:48:10. > :48:16.out-of-hospital care because if we don't help to keep people healthy
:48:17. > :48:22.and happy, that will cost even more money. When you have people with
:48:23. > :48:26.long-term conditions, people recovering from strokes, a quarter
:48:27. > :48:33.of the population now has a long-term condition like asthma or
:48:34. > :48:37.rheumatism, dementia... And in lots of parts of the country the system
:48:38. > :48:46.is close to collapse. Isn't what you have done is take money to plug the
:48:47. > :48:55.gap in social care? I'm talking about something more radical, the
:48:56. > :48:58.two being run together? We have had some very ambitious plans coming
:48:59. > :49:04.forward and there are some basic things the public want to know will
:49:05. > :49:09.happen. One of them is, if you have a mum or a grandad who is not well,
:49:10. > :49:13.living at home, perhaps on their own, but with one or two long-term
:49:14. > :49:18.conditions, I think you want to know there is someone in the NHS who is
:49:19. > :49:24.taking responsibility for that person. That's why at the heart of
:49:25. > :49:36.the changes I would like to see is a transformation in the role of GPs.
:49:37. > :49:40.They take authority? Yes, using the benefits of modern technology we
:49:41. > :49:48.move from a model of essentially reactive care, where GPs see people
:49:49. > :49:59.coming through their door, to a proactive model where they question
:50:00. > :50:05.how people are doing. The head of the Royal College of GPs has said it
:50:06. > :50:20.is under the threat of extinction. Yes, but she has welcomed our plan
:50:21. > :50:26.with GPs. This is a pilot project, isn't it? No, it is a large chunk of
:50:27. > :50:30.surgeries and they are experimenting with what you can do with longer
:50:31. > :50:35.opening hours and new technology, but separate from that we have
:50:36. > :50:42.announced that all GPs from this April, everyone aged 75 and over has
:50:43. > :50:46.to have a named GP, which was abolished by the last government in
:50:47. > :50:52.2004, and that has been widely recognised as a mistake. We need to
:50:53. > :50:56.go back to that sense of responsibility which I think is what
:50:57. > :51:03.makes many people want to become a GP. What was she reporting back that
:51:04. > :51:08.was wrong? She was saying that GPs are under a huge amount of pressure,
:51:09. > :51:12.and she was right. We will not succeed by asking GPs to work longer
:51:13. > :51:16.hours. We need to look at the systems and we need to look at
:51:17. > :51:21.whether there are smarter ways of doing these things, and I think one
:51:22. > :51:26.of them is restoring that sense of responsibility. I have got rid of
:51:27. > :51:32.40% of the targets that GPs have to deal with everyday. I said in
:51:33. > :51:37.exchange for losing those targets, can we go back to the sense of
:51:38. > :51:43.responsibility starting with the elderly patients. I think you spent
:51:44. > :51:48.?50 million and that was just for one year, will that be extended
:51:49. > :51:56.across the country? We will have to see. The reason for that pilot
:51:57. > :52:01.scheme was to see if the modern technology saves work or creates
:52:02. > :52:11.work. I am not going to persuade doctors by telling them that, we
:52:12. > :52:22.need to look at the evidence. We have had a very expensive cancer
:52:23. > :52:28.drug, which NICE have said cannot be used routinely. Our we at the stage
:52:29. > :52:34.now where life extending technology is too expensive for the NHS? And
:52:35. > :52:37.how do you make those decisions? They are impossible decisions and
:52:38. > :52:43.your heart goes out to anybody who has breast cancer, and this is a
:52:44. > :52:50.very precious few final months of their lives, and that's why we
:52:51. > :52:56.decided by independent scientists at arms length from government. We do
:52:57. > :53:02.have a cancer drugs fund, which was helped 44,000 people. It was set up
:53:03. > :53:08.by David Cameron and has been a huge success. No care system in the world
:53:09. > :53:12.can afford to have an open cheque-book, and if we are going to
:53:13. > :53:18.be able to carry on affording new drugs, we had to ask ourselves
:53:19. > :53:22.whether we spend the budget wisely. Doctors and nurses tell me we spend
:53:23. > :53:28.too much on top-heavy management, which is why we got rid of the
:53:29. > :53:32.primary care trusts, and also that the hospitals paid too much for some
:53:33. > :53:38.of the basic products and services, that drives them mad, so today we
:53:39. > :53:48.are announcing a big new scheme on NHS procurement. This conversation
:53:49. > :53:54.has not surprisingly been dominated by money, and I come back to this
:53:55. > :53:58.question, with the elderly population, the new drugs and
:53:59. > :54:08.technologies, something has to give. I wonder what you think, looking
:54:09. > :54:11.ahead, after the next election, tough, radical decisions will have
:54:12. > :54:18.to be taken and I wonder whether they will involve something like
:54:19. > :54:24.putting an extra 1% on national insurance, like a National Health
:54:25. > :54:30.Service tax, or the more wealthy people, should they be charged for
:54:31. > :54:37.food in hospital? Those decisions are lying ahead, aren't they? The
:54:38. > :54:41.basic principle is the NHS stands for an non-negotiable. We want a
:54:42. > :54:50.service that is free at the point of use, therefore everybody. No
:54:51. > :54:54.charges? No charges, and the NHS remains the single reason we are
:54:55. > :54:58.most proud to be British, and I think the reason for that is that we
:54:59. > :55:06.are proud of the values it stands for. Before we start saying we want
:55:07. > :55:10.to ask people to spend more of their taxes, we have two ask whether we
:55:11. > :55:21.are spending the budget as wisely as we could. There is one final point,
:55:22. > :55:25.the cost of poor care. Let's not forget we had tragedies like at Mid
:55:26. > :55:29.Staffordshire, and because we didn't do enough quickly enough to sort out
:55:30. > :55:35.those problems, we spend more than ?1 billion every year on litigation
:55:36. > :55:42.claims. Are you carrying on the fight for the ring fencing of the
:55:43. > :55:47.budget for the NHS, or like Liam Fox do you think we should give it up?
:55:48. > :55:51.We have shown our instincts on that by continuing to protect the NHS
:55:52. > :56:01.budget into the next financial year, which goes beyond... I think David
:56:02. > :56:05.Cameron and George Osborne are passionate about making sure the NHS
:56:06. > :56:12.continues to deliver for the British people. Can I move on to UKIP,
:56:13. > :56:17.another big story of the day. They are shooting up the polls, way ahead
:56:18. > :56:22.of you in the European election polls. Are we going to see a change
:56:23. > :56:28.in policy? The tougher attitude towards Europe and so forth in
:56:29. > :56:33.response to their success? I think we have to engage with UKIP and the
:56:34. > :56:37.British public on the argument. I think there are basically two
:56:38. > :56:42.reasons why people consider voting for a UKIP, one of them is Europe
:56:43. > :56:46.and one of them is a protest vote against the main parties. On Europe
:56:47. > :56:54.we have a choice, we have a Prime Minister with a plan. He has said he
:56:55. > :56:57.will give the British people a referendum, he will renegotiate the
:56:58. > :57:06.terms of our membership, and he has a track record. He has vetoed a
:57:07. > :57:12.European treaty... The alternative, UKIP, if they do well, the only
:57:13. > :57:14.thing that happens then is Ed Miliband in Downing Street and he
:57:15. > :57:22.doesn't believe in any of those things. A lot of UKIP voters will
:57:23. > :57:29.say we have to push them, and the best way to do that is with a
:57:30. > :57:33.sharpened stick called UKIP. That is part of the attraction of a protest
:57:34. > :57:38.vote, but the reason people want to vote that way is because they are
:57:39. > :57:43.angry. They are right to be angry, we have just had the worst recession
:57:44. > :57:47.since the Second World War, but if you are angry vote for the party
:57:48. > :57:53.that will change things the most. The Conservative party has turned
:57:54. > :57:58.around the economy, Iain Duncan Smith is tackling the welfare state,
:57:59. > :58:02.Michael Gove is transforming standards in schools. And you are
:58:03. > :58:08.going to get Boris back in the House of Commons to lead you! I think the
:58:09. > :58:21.British people understand Rome was not built in the day and we will get
:58:22. > :58:42.there but we have to have patience. Now over to Sian for the news
:58:43. > :58:45.headlines. Ukraine's Ambassador in London has said that the OSCE should
:58:46. > :58:48.'flood' the country with observers, despite the kidnapping of members of
:58:49. > :58:52.an OSCE mission in eastern Ukraine last Friday. He said his government
:58:53. > :58:54.still wanted to 'give peace a chance' and explore all
:58:55. > :58:57.possibilities, for a diplomatic resolution to the stand off with
:58:58. > :59:00.Russia. But he said that if Russia launched an invasion, he was
:59:01. > :59:03.confident Ukrainian forces would fight back. Back to Andrew in a
:59:04. > :59:07.moment. First, a look at what's coming up immediately after this
:59:08. > :59:12.programme. Does John Paul II deserves sainthood? See you at ten
:59:13. > :59:18.o'clock on BBC One. Thanks to all my guests. Next week,
:59:19. > :59:20.I'll be talking to the Labour leader Ed Miliband, to UKIP's Nigel Farage,
:59:21. > :59:24.and to the distinguished actress Fiona Shaw. You can see that Dylan
:59:25. > :59:32.Thomas drama on BBC Two next month, the 18th of May. In the meantime,
:59:33. > :59:37.until next Sunday, a very good morning to you. Goodbye.