:00:38. > :00:42.Good morning to you. There's a fashionable new economist called
:00:43. > :00:46.Thomas Piketty, and according to him the West's in the same position as
:00:47. > :00:52.before the First World War, when the top 1% of rich people accounted for
:00:53. > :00:58.a fifth of total incomes. Of course a century ago, everything was
:00:59. > :01:02.different. Liberals in government had become very unpopular, there was
:01:03. > :01:05.much talk of the break-up of the UK, and nationalist feuds in eastern
:01:06. > :01:11.edge Europe were about to provoke a world war. So nothing like now!
:01:12. > :01:15.Well, today's papers are crammed with stories, the most interesting
:01:16. > :01:17.for weeks. Joining me today to review them, the director of
:01:18. > :01:25.Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti, and the editor of The Spectator, Fraser
:01:26. > :01:28.Nelson. Today's show will be dominated by two big hitters with
:01:29. > :01:31.the European and local-election campaigns revving up ahead of voting
:01:32. > :01:34.on 22nd May. Labour's hoping to build on recent opinion polls which
:01:35. > :01:37.put them narrowly ahead of the Conservatives. The Labour leader, Ed
:01:38. > :01:40.Miliband will be here later. On Europe, he has said he wouldn't
:01:41. > :01:44.propose an immediate in-out referendum on the European Union if
:01:45. > :01:47.his party regains power in 2015. So how does he respond to David
:01:48. > :01:50.Cameron's charge that the Tories are the only party guaranteeing change
:01:51. > :01:57.in the Britain's relationship with the EU? Getting out of the European
:01:58. > :02:02.Union is, of course, at the top of Nigel Farage's wish list. The UKIP
:02:03. > :02:05.leader will be here later to discuss his mission to, as he puts it, take
:02:06. > :02:11.back control and why he's been calling some of his own members
:02:12. > :02:14.idiots. I'll also be joined by the Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood, to
:02:15. > :02:20.discuss her party's prospects in Europe. Fiona Shaw is one of the
:02:21. > :02:23.world's greatest actors. Her extraordinary one-woman show, The
:02:24. > :02:28.Testament Of Mary, sparked protests on Broadway. It's just opened in
:02:29. > :02:33.London, and she's here to talk about Christ, crucifixions and
:02:34. > :02:45.controversy. Plus, we have some deeply funky soul music.
:02:46. > :02:53.The sound of the summer! Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings live later.
:02:54. > :02:56.First, the news with Naga Munchetty. Andrew, thank you. Good morning.
:02:57. > :02:59.There's been further fighting in eastern Ukraine as the authorities
:03:00. > :03:02.in Kiev try to reassert control. Demonstrators smashed their way into
:03:03. > :03:05.a government building in Donetsk in retaliation for the deaths of dozens
:03:06. > :03:08.of people on Friday when petrol bombs were thrown at pro-Russian
:03:09. > :03:12.activists in a trade union building in Odessa. Clashes have also taken
:03:13. > :03:17.place in the cities of Sloviansk and Kramatorsk.
:03:18. > :03:20.The Archbishop of Canterbury has defended the Church of England's
:03:21. > :03:23.role in educating children. Justin Welby has insisted that although
:03:24. > :03:28.relatively few people go to church, Anglican schools are popular. Almost
:03:29. > :03:37.a million pupils currently attend Church of England schools.
:03:38. > :03:40.It is an expression of a love and service to the community. People
:03:41. > :03:44.choose the schools in large numbers, often in the poorest part
:03:45. > :03:47.of the country, and we seek to love and serve people through these
:03:48. > :03:52.schools, and we have done for hundreds of years. And I think
:03:53. > :03:55.that's a very good expression of social capital.
:03:56. > :03:58.The government in Afghanistan has declared a day of national mourning
:03:59. > :04:02.after at least 350 people died in two landslides in the north east of
:04:03. > :04:06.the country. 2,500 people are still missing in the village of Badakshan,
:04:07. > :04:09.but rescuers have now given up the search for survivors. Aid, including
:04:10. > :04:15.tents, food and water, has started to arrive for those who have lost
:04:16. > :04:19.their homes. A source close to Gerry Adams has
:04:20. > :04:22.told the BBC that the Sinn Fein leader is being questioned for up to
:04:23. > :04:25.17 hours a day by detectives investigating the murder of Jean
:04:26. > :04:28.McConville in 1972. Mr Adams, who's spent his fourth night in police
:04:29. > :04:33.custody, denies any involvement in the death of Mrs McConville. The
:04:34. > :04:37.widow and mother of ten was abducted and shot by the IRA.
:04:38. > :04:41.Ed Miliband is being urged to renationalise the rail network if
:04:42. > :04:43.Labour forms the next government. 31 of his party's parliamentary
:04:44. > :04:49.candidates have written to the Observer newspaper saying it would
:04:50. > :04:52.improve services and control fares. Labour is currently reviewing all
:04:53. > :04:57.its policies ahead of the general election.
:04:58. > :05:01.That's all from me for now. I'll be back with the headlines just before
:05:02. > :05:06.ten o'clock. Back to you, Andrew. Many thanks, Naga, more on that
:05:07. > :05:08.story later. We hear a lot about the Scottish Nationalists, but what
:05:09. > :05:12.about the Welsh ones? Plaid Cymru says it's the only party that can
:05:13. > :05:15.further the Welsh national interest at the heart of Europe and has urged
:05:16. > :05:18.voters to reject damaging Europhobia in this month's European election.
:05:19. > :05:25.However, low turn-out, plus the threat of UKIP, might cost Plaid its
:05:26. > :05:29.only European seat. I'm joined now from Cardiff by the Plaid leader,
:05:30. > :05:36.Leanne Wood. Good morning and welcome to you. Good morning,
:05:37. > :05:39.Andrew. You are the only Plaid leader not to speak Welsh when you
:05:40. > :05:44.got into the job, I take the lessons are going well! I am a Welsh
:05:45. > :05:49.learner, but you are right to say that I am the first leader of Plaid
:05:50. > :05:54.Cymru to not be a first language Welsh speaker, but our party is an
:05:55. > :05:57.inclusive party, and we speak to everybody who lives in Wales.
:05:58. > :06:02.Obviously, the language is important, but so is every single
:06:03. > :06:06.citizen in the country. We will be talking about the push for Scottish
:06:07. > :06:10.independence in the papers, it is all over the place. Why has there
:06:11. > :06:15.been so little bleed of that emotion into Welsh politics? They are on a
:06:16. > :06:19.roll, but you not so much. Well, the devolution journeys in our two
:06:20. > :06:23.countries are at very different stages. When Scotland started out as
:06:24. > :06:34.80 volt nation, they already had an independent legal service, an
:06:35. > :06:40.independent education service. -- as a deep old nation. I am confident we
:06:41. > :06:43.will gain strength in terms of our economic position, that our
:06:44. > :06:47.dependency will reduce overtime and that in the future we in Wales will
:06:48. > :06:53.be able to put the question to the people of Wales as to where we want
:06:54. > :07:04.our future July. You think you will see an independent Wales in your
:07:05. > :07:12.lifetime? -- our future to life. There is support formal
:07:13. > :07:15.independence, so I do. We have a more independent health service that
:07:16. > :07:18.has avoided the privatisation agenda, so there is demand and
:07:19. > :07:22.support for greater autonomy all the time, and that is growing, and I
:07:23. > :07:27.think in the future it will grow more. You have singled out UKIP as
:07:28. > :07:30.one of the big threats, is it possible they will help lose you
:07:31. > :07:34.your only sit in the European Parliament, and if so, how big a
:07:35. > :07:41.blow would that be for Plaid at this stage? Well, at this election, the
:07:42. > :07:45.people of Wales based two futures. One where they are dragged out of
:07:46. > :07:53.Europe by a divisive and ugly politics as espoused by UKIP. Or one
:07:54. > :07:55.where we can continue at international co-operation on issues
:07:56. > :08:01.like climate change, banking regulation, tax avoidance, and our
:08:02. > :08:06.MEP has worked very hard on making sure those issues are at the heart
:08:07. > :08:11.of the politics of the European Union, and the Welsh voice in that.
:08:12. > :08:16.And there is a very dangerous future for Wales if it opts for the likes
:08:17. > :08:22.of UKIP. So many jobs in Wales depend on us remaining as a partner
:08:23. > :08:30.of the UK, and that is very much where Plaid Cymru sees us in the
:08:31. > :08:34.future. The front pages, the Independent has rightly picked on
:08:35. > :08:42.the Ukrainian story, and they quote Vladimir Putin saying, Ukraine is
:08:43. > :08:47.beyond our control - we wonder for how long. Ed Miliband, we will force
:08:48. > :09:01.you to get fit, he wants higher alcohol prices and is after your
:09:02. > :09:07.bowl of Crosskeys, so watch out! -- Frosties. The Observer, bring rail
:09:08. > :09:13.under state control, we will talk about that later. And finally, the
:09:14. > :09:17.Sunday Telegraph saying that the victims of the IRA deserve pay-outs.
:09:18. > :09:20.It says David Cameron is trying to persuade Libya to help fund pay-outs
:09:21. > :09:26.to the victims of IRA attacks in the past. As promised, our wonderful
:09:27. > :09:31.paper reviews, Shami Chakrabarti and Fraser Nelson, we are starting with
:09:32. > :09:36.Ukraine. Yes, the independent on Sunday, a bold decision to put this
:09:37. > :09:40.on its cover. The West has decided it cannot do much about Ukraine, but
:09:41. > :09:43.that does not mean that it has gone away. They have a correspondent in
:09:44. > :09:48.Kramatorsk saying it is getting worse and civil war is beginning to
:09:49. > :09:54.break out. There is a map of the various forces here, not in
:09:55. > :10:05.Ukraine's favour. The conflagrations we are getting are quite serious. In
:10:06. > :10:09.Odessa yesterday, 40 people died in a burning building. You have got
:10:10. > :10:15.booed in playing this very strange role where he is claiming he has got
:10:16. > :10:19.nothing to do with the strange men. -- Putin. But it is quite clear what
:10:20. > :10:25.is going on, as long as he cannot be directly paying for this, he can get
:10:26. > :10:29.away pretty much with what he wants. The question is, does he want
:10:30. > :10:35.control of all of this? Will we see Russian tanks going over the border
:10:36. > :10:41.by next Sunday? The Sunday Times puts on a very good spread, and it
:10:42. > :10:45.reminds me of the importance of war journalism at a time when it has not
:10:46. > :10:51.always been as funded and invested in as it was in the past, lots of
:10:52. > :10:55.great women wore journalists that I can recall. But of course, careful
:10:56. > :11:00.what you wish for, Mr Putin, because it is all very well to want to have
:11:01. > :11:08.this vision of the Ukraine as part of your empire, but with great power
:11:09. > :11:13.comes great responsibility. It would be easy to be sucked into a long and
:11:14. > :11:18.bloody conflict. And the Sunday Times is having a bit of a dig at
:11:19. > :11:24.the EU for being too hesitant. Completely, it has been a disaster
:11:25. > :11:28.giving the EU any remit in this. A bunch of countries which do not
:11:29. > :11:34.always agree, and diplomatically it has been unable to take Ukraine into
:11:35. > :11:41.an orbit of stability, and we are seeing one of many diplomatic
:11:42. > :11:46.failures in which the EU is blamed. Duping the EU can be blamed for
:11:47. > :11:49.making a grab for Ukraine? -- do you think there is no doubt that the
:11:50. > :11:57.relationship with Ukraine has been botched. So many people in Britain,
:11:58. > :12:01.we are in favour of expanding the EU influence, but the French do not
:12:02. > :12:05.want it, and as a result of indecision we lose not just the
:12:06. > :12:10.Ukraine but Turkey as well, that is looking increasingly eastwards. It
:12:11. > :12:14.goes to show you cannot trust the EU commissar to give any direction, it
:12:15. > :12:18.has to be countries talking to countries. I do not think it is EU,
:12:19. > :12:23.SARS, it is a family of democratic nations seeking to influence, that
:12:24. > :12:32.is never going to be as decisive as a gangster like Mr Putin. -- EU
:12:33. > :12:37.commissars. They have aspirations to be like the United States, it does
:12:38. > :12:41.not work. Gerry Adams is all over the papers again, he is still in
:12:42. > :12:47.custody, the BBC has been told 17 hours a day, what does this do to
:12:48. > :12:52.Northern Ireland? Let's be sensible about this, he is entitled to their
:12:53. > :12:57.process, like everyone else, but I reflect on, you know, not that long
:12:58. > :13:01.ago I thought I would never see peace in Northern Ireland. Maybe it
:13:02. > :13:05.is the ageing process, but I can remember quite vividly, even as a
:13:06. > :13:09.student, moments when I taught I would never see the end of apartheid
:13:10. > :13:14.in South Africa, or peace in Northern Ireland, and then it came.
:13:15. > :13:19.And I just hope that some of the people who are understandably still
:13:20. > :13:23.very upset about some of the terrible things that happened in the
:13:24. > :13:29.Troubles, but also people who are very upset about this timing, the
:13:30. > :13:34.timing of this arrest and so on, just reflect on what there is to
:13:35. > :13:39.lose. There is always a tension in post-conflict situations between,
:13:40. > :13:44.you know, the hunger to get to truth and justice, but also a tension
:13:45. > :13:49.between peace building for the future and that. We are as sensitive
:13:50. > :13:52.to that as anyone else, so I hope that people remember what there is
:13:53. > :13:58.to lose. I promise to domestic politics, there is more now, a
:13:59. > :14:02.striking front page. I am not sure how long this is going to be
:14:03. > :14:07.domestic, but Scotland, the Sunday Herald has become the first Scottish
:14:08. > :14:11.newspaper to come out for a yes vote in the referendum. This is quite
:14:12. > :14:14.significant, because none of the Scottish press have done this so
:14:15. > :14:20.far. The Sunday Herald has been edging towards this position, this
:14:21. > :14:25.rather striking cover designed by Alistair Gray. You cannot really see
:14:26. > :14:32.it, a Scottish lion playing the bagpipes. It almost tempts a
:14:33. > :14:36.unionist like me to think there might be something in this! It is
:14:37. > :14:40.significant because this debate is far closer than we thought even a
:14:41. > :14:45.year ago, and I doubt the Sunday Herald would be the last paper to go
:14:46. > :14:49.yes. Newspapers tend to want to go with the zeitgeist, and if they
:14:50. > :14:54.think there is a reasonable chance of a guess vote, they will jump in
:14:55. > :14:58.ahead of this. The Scotsman and the Herald have been pretty unionist in
:14:59. > :15:03.their approach so far. They have been, yes, although the Herald, you
:15:04. > :15:09.would not think it would rule it out. It has got some very yes
:15:10. > :15:16.campaign columnists. Of course, and the Sun was pro-independent, the
:15:17. > :15:24.Scottish Sun, partly reflecting Rupert Murdoch's troublemaking
:15:25. > :15:29.instincts, but it is a big moment. You were saying something earlier
:15:30. > :15:35.about how it would reflect on David Cameron's position if there were a
:15:36. > :15:48.yes vote. Yes, he would really have to resign. David Cameron may think,
:15:49. > :15:54.I can still hang onto my job, but others will say he has got to go.
:15:55. > :15:58.There are so many great stories others will say he has got to go.
:15:59. > :16:05.today. The debate between David Cameron and Nigel Farage. Finally we
:16:06. > :16:10.seem to be in a place where David Cameron says he will debate against
:16:11. > :16:19.Nigel Farage. I gather Number Ten has already said it is not exactly
:16:20. > :16:24.like that. How do you deal with a problem like Nigel? I am worried
:16:25. > :16:30.about where this pushes the other parties. I'm worried about people
:16:31. > :16:32.going to the right on things like immigration, really nasty
:16:33. > :16:41.immigration bill going through Parliament which would allow people
:16:42. > :16:59.to be made British nationals with no other nationalities, they could be
:17:00. > :17:02.made stateless. We are going to come onto this later on so we will keep
:17:03. > :17:08.pushing ahead. There is an interesting poll, quoting you saying
:17:09. > :17:15.you expect Ed Miliband to be the next Prime Minister. Yes, one point
:17:16. > :17:20.is all Labour needs to win the next election. It is fairly balanced
:17:21. > :17:31.right now but I would still say, personally, it is pointing towards
:17:32. > :17:38.an edit -- Ed Miliband victory. You don't have to think that Ed Miliband
:17:39. > :17:42.is a genius but Lib Dem supporters... Left has been reunited
:17:43. > :17:52.under Ed Miliband so it is his election to lose. Some of the papers
:17:53. > :18:00.are telling us what that might mean. Speaking of Ed Miliband, we have
:18:01. > :18:06.this leaked Labour document? Yes, they will force you to be fitter,
:18:07. > :18:17.apparently. It depends how you interpret things. It fits a theme.
:18:18. > :18:21.Ed Miliband is ambitious about what the Government can tell people who
:18:22. > :18:26.don't work for the Government what to do, tell supermarkets were to
:18:27. > :18:39.display alcohol and tell cereal companies whether we should sell
:18:40. > :18:44.Frosties or not but his approach is far more interventionist. We have
:18:45. > :18:48.this debate about the railways, and some papers obviously linked the
:18:49. > :18:53.possibility of taking the railways back under central state control to
:18:54. > :18:56.the whole Ed Miliband agenda but it seems to me that you don't have to
:18:57. > :19:01.be desperately left wing to be really concerned about the railways
:19:02. > :19:05.and how privatisation hasn't worked. I seem to recall David
:19:06. > :19:10.Cameron apologising for the privatisation of railways just a
:19:11. > :19:16.couple of years ago. I would like to talk a little bit about the cancer
:19:17. > :19:23.drug story. I have a feel-good cancer story. Like everyone, I have
:19:24. > :19:32.lost dear friends to cancer. This is in the Sunday express. It is about a
:19:33. > :19:41.famous musician, Wilco Johnson, used to be in Doctor feel-good back in
:19:42. > :19:46.the 1970s. He was given ten months to live, thought he had inoperable
:19:47. > :19:50.cancer but a chance meeting with a friend and an amateur photographer
:19:51. > :19:56.got him a second opinion, he has just had surgery and he is going to
:19:57. > :20:04.live. He said that if he was given a 100% chance of dying, which makes
:20:05. > :20:09.you think we have the assisted dying legislation coming up in the House
:20:10. > :20:18.of Commons. We all have a 100% chance. We are all going to die but
:20:19. > :20:22.this is a positive story. The idea that we should bring back in this
:20:23. > :20:32.country a suggestion that you should basically ended is... Crammed
:20:33. > :20:35.newspapers, thank you both for that. A sunny and blue-skied start to the
:20:36. > :20:38.Bank Holiday weekend yesterday. Temperatures quite high too, as high
:20:39. > :20:40.as our expectations for the weather for the rest of the break. Over to
:20:41. > :20:42.John Hammond. as our expectations for the weather
:20:43. > :20:46.for the rest of the It looks like I am going to have to manage those
:20:47. > :20:55.expectations because some will be enjoying sunshine, but it will be
:20:56. > :21:05.staying cloudy with drips and drops of rain around for Northern England
:21:06. > :21:10.and Scotland. Generally cloudy further north and quite cool.
:21:11. > :21:14.Southern areas in the sunshine, very nice with light winds. Fast forward
:21:15. > :21:19.to tomorrow, lots of sunshine to start the bank holiday across much
:21:20. > :21:23.of the country. Rain pushing in across Northern Ireland, then
:21:24. > :21:28.onwards into many western parts of the mainland as we go through the
:21:29. > :21:33.day with strengthening wind. In the sunshine, up to 19, possibly 20
:21:34. > :21:39.degrees in the south-east on bank holiday Monday. There will be some
:21:40. > :21:44.showery rain across western parts of the UK, but the best of the sunshine
:21:45. > :21:51.across the UK will be in the eastern parts of the country.
:21:52. > :21:54.He's been widely abused, egged and ridiculed, but Nigel Farage's
:21:55. > :21:58.insurrection against mainstream politics hasn't faltered. But there
:21:59. > :22:01.seem to be plenty of bad apples in the garden of England, and tough
:22:02. > :22:08.choices ahead for UKIP's saloon bar revolutionary. Mr Farage joins me
:22:09. > :22:16.now. Do you think women should be banned from wearing trousers? No. Do
:22:17. > :22:21.you think, sexuality is an abomination against God? If we are
:22:22. > :22:24.going to go through the loopy comments of people connected to
:22:25. > :22:31.UKIP, that's fine but we should do that with the other political
:22:32. > :22:35.parties as well. A handful of people who say Batty, idiotic and sometimes
:22:36. > :22:42.offensive things are held up as if they represent the view of UKIP as a
:22:43. > :22:48.party and it is wrong on it is disproportionate. Ed Miliband is on
:22:49. > :22:57.today, I wonder why you will -- if you will ask him why he has BMP
:22:58. > :23:01.defectors in his party. Everybody standing for UKIP knows the media
:23:02. > :23:06.spotlight is on them, and yet time and time again it is made very easy.
:23:07. > :23:11.You say it is a mainstream plot, but it is made very easy for the
:23:12. > :23:18.mainstream because so many people are saying offensive things. We have
:23:19. > :23:21.made mistakes. We are non-racist, nonsectarian party. Despite the fact
:23:22. > :23:25.that to be a candidate you have to go to a much higher level of
:23:26. > :23:30.declaration, some people have got through and we should have weeded
:23:31. > :23:34.them out. When you look at the fact we have 2500 standing and a handful
:23:35. > :23:41.causes embarrassment, when you look at the parties, there was a Liberal
:23:42. > :23:44.Democrat the other week convicted racially aggravated assault and that
:23:45. > :23:49.doesn't make the national news. I'm not saying we have been perfect, but
:23:50. > :23:54.these people are not representative of UKIP. Are you concerned there is
:23:55. > :23:59.something in the way UKIP has presented itself which attracts such
:24:00. > :24:05.people? No, because they join every party. Nine Labour councillors left
:24:06. > :24:10.the group in Harrow last year over accusations of racism. There was a
:24:11. > :24:17.Conservative official in Essex last year forced to resign over
:24:18. > :24:21.Islamophobic comments. Not only am I adamant we are non-racist party,
:24:22. > :24:25.this week I will fight back against it. You will see our election
:24:26. > :24:28.address for the local elections this year, and you will see a lot of
:24:29. > :24:34.black, ethnic minority candidates proudly standing for UKIP. Let me
:24:35. > :24:39.ask you about something you said in an interview with the Guardian, you
:24:40. > :24:45.said people should be worried if Romanians moved into the same street
:24:46. > :24:51.as them. The question was, if a whole load of Romanian men moved in
:24:52. > :24:55.next door, would you be concerned? You would, perhaps, yes, because you
:24:56. > :24:58.know that what has happened is that we have opened up the doors to
:24:59. > :25:06.countries that have not recovered from communism and it has become a
:25:07. > :25:11.gateway for organised crime. Most Romanian people are presumably
:25:12. > :25:17.law-abiding, God-fearing, hard-working people like most Polish
:25:18. > :25:22.people who have come here and so on. We decide to choose not just the
:25:23. > :25:26.quantity of people that come but the quality of people as well, any
:25:27. > :25:32.normal country would do that. We had 4 million people come in under the
:25:33. > :25:38.last figures during the Labour government, what happens if 4
:25:39. > :25:43.million more people come in? It becomes a more divided society. I
:25:44. > :25:58.see anger amongst young people who find it more difficult to get jobs.
:25:59. > :26:02.We also have divided communities. We are not against immigration, we want
:26:03. > :26:07.good, positive immigration but let's do it the way the Australians do
:26:08. > :26:11.it. Let's have a points system, that tough people who have skills and who
:26:12. > :26:16.want to integrate into society and tough people who have skills and who
:26:17. > :26:21.will be of benefit to us. What is not being discussed is the
:26:22. > :26:23.will be of benefit to us. What is we have open door and people can
:26:24. > :26:32.come regardless whether they have good things to bring or not. You say
:26:33. > :26:39.that any racism in your party will be blown away forever? Yes, I
:26:40. > :26:42.believe in treating people equally. To see what is being written every
:26:43. > :26:51.day, describing my party is racist and homophobic, we will face that
:26:52. > :26:57.had on this week. Are there things in the party's rule book you need to
:26:58. > :27:06.change for that? No, the rule book is very clear. We have got rules to
:27:07. > :27:11.prevent that, sometimes people don't quite tell us the truth and yes, we
:27:12. > :27:16.need to put more resources and money into making sure this cannot happen
:27:17. > :27:22.again. No other party leader has had to describe some of his members as
:27:23. > :27:28.idiots. No other party leader is taking on the establishment. We have
:27:29. > :27:37.three party leaders who have signed us up to it union in Europe. I am
:27:38. > :27:45.taking on the establishment and they are fighting back. David Cameron
:27:46. > :27:52.described you as chicken for not standing in the next election. Will
:27:53. > :27:56.you be standing? I thought about Newark and realised I cannot go
:27:57. > :28:00.there because I am busy touring Britain. I want UKIP to win the
:28:01. > :28:07.European elections this year, we will talk about the general election
:28:08. > :28:14.afterwards. You wanted to push the Conservatives into offering a
:28:15. > :28:22.referendum, which they have, how close are you to doing the same
:28:23. > :28:31.thing to the Labour Party? I was out yesterday in Kent, canvassing a
:28:32. > :28:37.solid Labour vote area and we are digging deep into that. If UKIP beat
:28:38. > :28:41.Labour in those elections, I believe it will change Ed Miliband's
:28:42. > :28:48.position on the referendum. Can I talk about your own position because
:28:49. > :28:53.you have been criticised heavily for taking so much money from the EU,
:28:54. > :29:00.which is not audited. One of your posters had some guy sprawled on the
:29:01. > :29:08.back of a limousine, and this could be your celebrity lifestyle. We
:29:09. > :29:16.don't want that, we want to end all of this. But you have gone right up
:29:17. > :29:21.to the end of the rules in claiming your expenses. We get a fixed rate
:29:22. > :29:24.allowance to spend as we see fit and I have chosen to spend it on
:29:25. > :29:28.fighting and campaigning to get Britain out of the European Union. I
:29:29. > :29:33.know that in Brussels they are not terribly happy about that but what I
:29:34. > :29:40.have done is within the rules. How much money are we talking about? I
:29:41. > :29:46.don't know, and last time I named a figure I was accused of taking
:29:47. > :29:59.millions. I think the answer is to vote for MEPs who would like to vote
:30:00. > :30:03.the thing down and not waste money. We simply did not have people who
:30:04. > :30:08.work the right calibre, we'd be selected people, we have been pretty
:30:09. > :30:14.ruthless. UKIP has changed a very great deal. As a gardener, you spend
:30:15. > :30:19.more time weeding than growing. We have been leading the opinion polls
:30:20. > :30:23.for seven or eight days, not a bad place to be. Do you think, after
:30:24. > :30:30.this, because we have had European elections in the past were hearties
:30:31. > :30:34.came shooting up and then disappear -- where parties came shooting up
:30:35. > :30:39.and then disappeared, do you think there is a nascent UKIP group in
:30:40. > :30:45.Parliament which... There are some on the left of the Labour Party who
:30:46. > :30:48.would agree with us on many issues, the question of who governs this
:30:49. > :30:52.country. After the last European election, I was told, well done,
:30:53. > :30:57.Nigel, you have come second, but you will never repeat it in domestic
:30:58. > :31:01.politics. Last year, in the county elections, we got nearly a quarter
:31:02. > :31:06.of the vote. In all the last by-elections, we have come second.
:31:07. > :31:11.We have not yet got over the line, but we are getting closer. Can I put
:31:12. > :31:19.TV situation of a Conservative Member of Parliament in favour of a
:31:20. > :31:28.referendum? -- can I put to you the situation. Would you actually stand
:31:29. > :31:33.against that? Five years ago we sat here and discussed the European
:31:34. > :31:38.elections, and you put it to me that Mr Cameron said, vote conservative,
:31:39. > :31:43.because there was a cast iron guarantee... You cannot hold me
:31:44. > :31:50.responsible for him! We have heard the promises from him before. So
:31:51. > :31:54.somebody like build cash, would you stand against him? Build cash is
:31:55. > :32:05.more part of the problem than the solution. -- Bill Cash. He has
:32:06. > :32:12.droned on for years, but we are saying, free from the EU, we will
:32:13. > :32:16.get our democracy back, our pride, and we will become globally engaged.
:32:17. > :32:21.For now, thank you for joining us. Plenty of debate last week about
:32:22. > :32:25.whether we have ended a post-Christian era. Timely that a
:32:26. > :32:28.new play has opened in London about the death and legacy of a man whose
:32:29. > :32:34.story is very similar to that of Christ, The Testament Of Mary is a
:32:35. > :32:39.monologue directed by Deborah Warner and starring Fiona Shaw. She plays
:32:40. > :32:44.Mary, a bereaved mother reflecting on her charismatic and controversial
:32:45. > :32:49.sun who was crucified. It is an intense, abs all the drama which was
:32:50. > :32:55.the toast of Broadway but also because of protests. -- absorbing.
:32:56. > :33:01.Fiona Shaw will be telling me more about it in a moment, but first a
:33:02. > :33:09.clip. Martha looked in the direction of the room where her brother lay.
:33:10. > :33:13.My sister was right, she said. We are coming to the end of the world,
:33:14. > :33:27.or rather the world as we have no need is coming to an end. You must
:33:28. > :33:32.go to Jerusalem. And the Testament of Mary is at the Barbican Theatre
:33:33. > :33:36.in London for the next three weeks. So it is an extraordinary play, it
:33:37. > :33:41.is absolutely riveting and wrenching and so forth, but there is something
:33:42. > :33:45.odd about it, because it is clearly Mary, mother of Jesus, and yet the
:33:46. > :33:51.words Jesus is never mentioned, and there is a certain coyness about
:33:52. > :33:56.that. Well, it is fiction, you know, so it is not pretending to be
:33:57. > :34:03.theology. I suppose Mary, the mother of Jesus, was probably called some
:34:04. > :34:12.name, a nameless woman, and in a way the play is about Everywoman. Mary
:34:13. > :34:20.never speaks in the New Testament. No, she speaks twice. I think she
:34:21. > :34:26.speaks a little bit at the feast of Cana, but that is it. Not very
:34:27. > :34:30.much! This seems like a fifth Gospel, the Gospel of Mary, is that
:34:31. > :34:34.how you see it? If it were, it would be making claims do its truth,
:34:35. > :34:40.fiction is fiction, but it reveals truth, and I think it has been great
:34:41. > :34:45.to feel the audience excitement about the experience of this woman
:34:46. > :34:49.observing her son leaving home, like a lot of late adolescent boys, not
:34:50. > :35:00.getting in touch with his mother rematch. And she is not impressed
:35:01. > :35:06.with the disciples at all. No! I think Colm Toibin must have had a
:35:07. > :35:12.feeling that people are massaging the facts to make the icon happen,
:35:13. > :35:21.but she is not bound. You appeared with a live mulcher, is it really a
:35:22. > :35:26.live vulture? I was comforted by the fact that they only eat dead meat.
:35:27. > :35:36.It represents the death aspect of the whole piece. You were brought up
:35:37. > :35:43.as a good Catholic Bill, how did you react to American Christians
:35:44. > :35:52.protesting against the apparent blasphemy? -- girl it is a secular
:35:53. > :35:58.play about an ordinary woman who is very forthright, who believes that
:35:59. > :36:01.her son should just be steady. And in America there were people
:36:02. > :36:04.protesting in the streets, and it was quite frightening. We are just
:36:05. > :36:12.going to see a little clip of that so you can talk about it more. My
:36:13. > :36:19.son came back to life. It was dawn. We dreamt we were sleeping. There
:36:20. > :36:24.were some olive trees in the distance but nothing close by and
:36:25. > :36:32.there was no sound. And then I saw him. He was rising with the water,
:36:33. > :36:35.and his hands, his feet, his forehead, where the thorns had been,
:36:36. > :36:44.there were blue marks, open and gaping.
:36:45. > :36:53.And then you sit down and you look exactly like Michelangelo's statue
:36:54. > :36:58.of the virgin with Christ across her lap. How do you hold an audience for
:36:59. > :37:02.90 minutes just by yourself, nobody else on stage, just you and your
:37:03. > :37:08.voice? How do you set about trying to grip an audience for that period
:37:09. > :37:12.of time? Well, in this instance, the story is in the audience's had
:37:13. > :37:17.already, and I think it is a game between the story that think they
:37:18. > :37:20.know, or do know in their head, and the slight divergences of the play,
:37:21. > :37:25.which keeps on just nudging the Christian theology, or adding huge
:37:26. > :37:29.detail, so the description of the crucifixion is very near what must
:37:30. > :37:33.have happened in any crucifixion. But you hear the woman speak it and
:37:34. > :37:38.say, this is what happened to my son. You would have been brought up
:37:39. > :37:42.with images of Mary around you, have you always wanted to drill deeper
:37:43. > :37:46.into the story? Well, she was rather silent, as you described, she did
:37:47. > :37:52.not play hockey or tennis or go swimming, so she was a very
:37:53. > :37:57.difficult icon for a young person to see any future in. She was seen as
:37:58. > :38:02.dignified, quiet and accepting, and I think the effect of that on 2000
:38:03. > :38:05.years of history hasn't been great. It is a wonderful play, good luck
:38:06. > :38:09.for the rest of the run, thank you for coming in.
:38:10. > :38:13.Ed Miliband has been warned - UKIP is coming for you in the heartlands.
:38:14. > :38:17.Nigel Farage believes he can do just as much damage to the Labour Party
:38:18. > :38:23.in northern cities and towns as to the Conservatives in their shires,
:38:24. > :38:26.and he has made no secret of his strategy to hoover up support from
:38:27. > :38:31.those who feel left behind by globalisation, immigration and the
:38:32. > :38:36.race for the middle-class vote. So what is Labour's answer? Ed
:38:37. > :38:40.Miliband, thank you for coming in. Two things that the classic UKIP
:38:41. > :38:44.voter is worried about, immigration and the fact that British people
:38:45. > :38:48.have not had a say over the EU for so long, and there is no reason to
:38:49. > :38:52.vote Labour on either of these. I think the biggest thing that people
:38:53. > :38:57.are worried about is the cost of living crisis that we have in our
:38:58. > :39:03.country. That is what I find when I go out and about. That is not what
:39:04. > :39:06.voters say. There is a deep sense of discontent, because people believe
:39:07. > :39:10.this country is run for a few at the top and they are not getting a fair
:39:11. > :39:14.chance or a fair shot, they have seen their wages decline, they worry
:39:15. > :39:19.about their sons and daughters, whether they will have opportunities
:39:20. > :39:21.in the future. This is a generational challenge that we face.
:39:22. > :39:28.In this election and the general election, we have the right answers,
:39:29. > :39:33.not any of the other parties, and I relish the debate. Coming back to
:39:34. > :39:36.the EU issue, you will not offer the British people a referendum. Our
:39:37. > :39:40.position is clear, which is to say that if there is a transfer of
:39:41. > :39:45.powers from Britain to the European Union, there will be an in-out
:39:46. > :39:49.referendum under a Labour government. That is a clear
:39:50. > :39:52.promise. The direction of travel we want for Europe is not an ever
:39:53. > :39:57.closer union but some powers coming back. We have made that clear, but
:39:58. > :40:01.it is true to say that when I think about the priorities for me as Prime
:40:02. > :40:06.Minister, it is the cost of living crisis, the NHS, not debating
:40:07. > :40:10.whether we should exit the union. I have got to tell the country how I
:40:11. > :40:13.want to govern the country and what my priorities are, and I am laying
:40:14. > :40:18.them out clearly. These are European elections, you will not offer a
:40:19. > :40:23.referendum in any likely foreseeable circumstance - it is unlikely these
:40:24. > :40:29.powers would be pushed back. On the question of EU form, you say you
:40:30. > :40:32.want that, but precisely what? It is unlikely but remains possible,
:40:33. > :40:36.because we know there is uncertainty about what will happen in the
:40:37. > :40:40.European Union. On reform of the EU, we want to see change, because
:40:41. > :40:46.it is not working as well as it should. Economic change, reform of
:40:47. > :40:48.the budget, change on issues around immigration, longer transitional
:40:49. > :40:53.controls for new countries coming in, and most importantly of all,
:40:54. > :40:57.what we are saying about Europe is consistent with what we are saying
:40:58. > :41:01.about the country as a whole - let's make Europe work better to tackle
:41:02. > :41:05.the cost of living crisis. People still find they are working next to
:41:06. > :41:09.an agency worker, rules set in Europe, and their cost of living,
:41:10. > :41:12.their wages and conditions are being undermined. We have to make sure we
:41:13. > :41:17.don't have a race to the bottom between workers coming here and work
:41:18. > :41:20.is already here. That requires their rules in the labour market, and it
:41:21. > :41:25.is Labour that has been challenging this agenda while the other parties
:41:26. > :41:27.have been silent. When it comes to immigration, 4 million people
:41:28. > :41:33.according to the latest figures came to settle in Britain under the last
:41:34. > :41:40.Labour governance - too many? We have made mistakes and immigration
:41:41. > :41:44.many times -- we have made mistakes on immigration, I have said that
:41:45. > :41:47.many times. We have changed our position, including transitional
:41:48. > :41:52.controls. Immigration has different effects, it is positive overall, but
:41:53. > :41:56.it bears particularly on people who are low paid, who are seeing their
:41:57. > :42:00.communities change. That is why we want managed migration, tough border
:42:01. > :42:06.controls, and crucially stopping this undercutting of wages, doing
:42:07. > :42:10.everything we can... Let's take an example - employers who are failing
:42:11. > :42:14.to pay the minimum wage. There are hardly any prosecutions of that in
:42:15. > :42:18.this country. Often it is migrant workers being exploited, so it is
:42:19. > :42:22.bad for them, and workers here are being undercut. That is why I have
:42:23. > :42:27.changed our position. On benefits, we do not think we should be paying
:42:28. > :42:30.child benefit and child tax credits if peoples children are not here. It
:42:31. > :42:39.has been suggested that people should not have any entitlement to
:42:40. > :42:41.benefits for five years after coming into Britain. We have said we would
:42:42. > :42:44.lengthen the amount of time before people can get access to jobseeker's
:42:45. > :42:48.allowance to at least six months, consistent with the rules. I want to
:42:49. > :42:53.see change in Europe, but I also say this to you, Andrew - leaving the
:42:54. > :42:56.European Union, as Nigel Farage wants, as David Cameron is flirting
:42:57. > :43:02.with, would be a disaster for our country. Millions of jobs we rely on
:43:03. > :43:06.are linked to our membership of the EU, any multinational firm will tell
:43:07. > :43:09.you it is the last thing we need, and that is why I believe David
:43:10. > :43:13.Cameron is a huge threat to the prosperity of this country, because
:43:14. > :43:17.he has an agenda on Europe. He can't tell us what he is negotiating for,
:43:18. > :43:20.he has no support among European allies, and he would need unanimity
:43:21. > :43:24.for any changes, and he can't even tell us whether he would vote yes or
:43:25. > :43:29.no in a referendum that he claims he wants to see. Would you return the
:43:30. > :43:33.railways to public ownership under a Labour government? We are looking at
:43:34. > :43:38.all the options, we are not going to go back to old-style British Rail,
:43:39. > :43:41.but let me make this point - we have to be pragmatic, and we've got to
:43:42. > :43:47.recognise that the system at the moment has flaws in it. We are
:43:48. > :43:51.paying high fares, passengers are paying high fares in this country,
:43:52. > :43:56.and we are paying big subsidies. We have got examples, for example, with
:43:57. > :43:59.East Coast, which is in public hands, and the Government is
:44:00. > :44:02.dogmatically privatising it. I want to see value for money for the
:44:03. > :44:08.taxpayer, I will never write a blank check and go back to the past, but
:44:09. > :44:12.we are looking at different options. John Prescott has suggested that,
:44:13. > :44:18.for instance, as the owners of the 25 franchises, 19 coming up, you
:44:19. > :44:22.said we take them back into public ownership quietly rather than
:44:23. > :44:26.auctioning them. There is a balance to be struck, there are benefits you
:44:27. > :44:29.can have from competition, and we are not going back to the old
:44:30. > :44:34.monolithic model of British Rail, but we need to look at how we can
:44:35. > :44:37.have a coherent system. As David Cameron has admitted, the way that
:44:38. > :44:42.privatisation was done didn't work, so we need to find a better system
:44:43. > :44:51.for the future. After five years of Ed Miliband, would we find a
:44:52. > :44:53.substantial part of the rail system in public ownership? You will have
:44:54. > :44:57.to wait for the manifesto for that! The other great controversy, the
:44:58. > :45:01.takeover of AstraZeneca by Pfizer. The Prime Minister wants Pfizer to
:45:02. > :45:07.give guarantees but he is largely happy for that to happen. What is
:45:08. > :45:15.your view? David Cameron has, cheerleader for
:45:16. > :45:21.Pfizer's takeover, whereas he should be championing the jobs in this
:45:22. > :45:24.country that AstraZeneca provide. David Cameron must get an
:45:25. > :45:28.independent assessment of the impact this bid will have on the long-term
:45:29. > :45:35.science and industrial base of the country because we are hearing some
:45:36. > :45:37.very respected voices like Lord Sainsbury and Michael Heseltine
:45:38. > :45:45.warning about the dangers of this takeover. Would you, could you stop
:45:46. > :45:53.the takeover from happening? If I were Prime Minister, I would bring
:45:54. > :45:58.in a public interest test. With all of the implications it has for the
:45:59. > :46:04.science base, there has got to be an independent assessment for this in
:46:05. > :46:09.the national interest. No other country would be nodding this
:46:10. > :46:15.through on the basis of pretty weak assurances from Pfizer who have a
:46:16. > :46:19.pretty dubious record when it comes to takeovers. Should you be getting
:46:20. > :46:28.together with the Prime Minister to see what can be done? I am writing
:46:29. > :46:35.to the Prime Minister, setting out plan for the future. I will be
:46:36. > :46:40.saying that he should be actually championing British jobs and the
:46:41. > :46:46.British success story which is AstraZeneca, a crucial part of our
:46:47. > :46:55.science base. This is part of Labour's overall agenda, growing our
:46:56. > :47:01.way towards the jobs our country needs. We have had your proposals on
:47:02. > :47:05.energy prices, proposals on rent controls, on intervening in the
:47:06. > :47:09.market in railways and in the chemical industry, can you see why a
:47:10. > :47:20.lot of businesses are worried about you, that you are meddling statist?
:47:21. > :47:24.No, markets need rules. What is interesting about this is that yes,
:47:25. > :47:29.I am going to stand up for the generation that rents in this
:47:30. > :47:33.country because our rental market does not work and it is exceptional
:47:34. > :47:43.around the world, the short-term insecure nature of our rental
:47:44. > :47:47.market. Six months what are -- I proposed on energy was
:47:48. > :47:55.controversial, now even the energy companies and the regulator are
:47:56. > :47:59.saying I was right. If people say Ed Miliband is in favour of more
:48:00. > :48:08.regulations and higher taxes, here's an old-fashioned socialist, why are
:48:09. > :48:13.you shaking your head? Old-fashioned socialism is not what I am about. I
:48:14. > :48:19.am about how we make markets work properly in the public interest. In
:48:20. > :48:22.British politics there are the defenders of broken markets with
:48:23. > :48:28.vested interests, this Government, unable to take on the energy
:48:29. > :48:31.companies and change things, and there is Labour, leading the way
:48:32. > :48:36.with a bold agenda that says we are going to tackle the cost of living
:48:37. > :48:40.crisis. We are going to change this country so that it works for most
:48:41. > :48:46.ordinary families and that does require bold change, particularly
:48:47. > :48:49.when there is less money around. That is what I represent. We have
:48:50. > :48:54.the recovery happening at the moment, are you not a little bit
:48:55. > :49:07.concerned that by the time of the next election this might not be in
:49:08. > :49:16.front of their noses? People are telling me, my job is insecure, and
:49:17. > :49:21.this is a big and deep problem. Also people are saying, is my son or
:49:22. > :49:26.daughter going to have a better life than me? These are deep questions
:49:27. > :49:32.about the country. And yet they are more trusted on the economy than
:49:33. > :49:37.you, is that because you haven't yet convinced people you have a plan in
:49:38. > :49:42.the next Parliament? We do have a plan, we have set very clear
:49:43. > :49:47.commitments. We still don't know where you are going to court and how
:49:48. > :49:53.you are going to plug the hole. We have made commitments that we will
:49:54. > :49:58.run a surplus on the current budget and have the national debt falling.
:49:59. > :50:03.We have set out some of those areas in our 0-based reviews, but these
:50:04. > :50:07.are really important commitments from a Labour Party that recognises
:50:08. > :50:12.there won't be a lot of money to spend in the next Parliament, but
:50:13. > :50:18.that's why this economic reform agenda in banks, energy and skills
:50:19. > :50:23.is so important because that is how we will grow our way to higher
:50:24. > :50:31.standards of living for people. If the yes campaign when in Scotland,
:50:32. > :50:39.should David Cameron resign? I am convinced and confident that the
:50:40. > :50:44.Better Together campaign can win. If they don't? I'm not talking about
:50:45. > :50:51.that. We have to win this referendum because this is an existential
:50:52. > :50:55.question to the UK and I'm convinced we can deliver my gender across this
:50:56. > :51:00.country, better for Scotland, better for the whole of the UK with
:51:01. > :51:06.Scotland in the UK. There is a tube strike in London next week, do you
:51:07. > :51:11.agree it should be made harder for these big public sector strikes? The
:51:12. > :51:18.tube strike is wrong and shouldn't be going ahead. Both sides should be
:51:19. > :51:20.sitting around the table. The Government have this rhetoric about
:51:21. > :51:27.the strike, they should be pushing the mayor to the table, stopping
:51:28. > :51:32.this strike going ahead. So you would be open for new rules? Let's
:51:33. > :51:38.see what the Government comes forward with. Now over to Naga for
:51:39. > :51:42.the news headlines. The leader of UKIP has told this programme his
:51:43. > :51:46.party is on course for a breakthrough at Westminster despite
:51:47. > :51:50.his decision not to stand in the new by-election. Nigel Farage said UKIP
:51:51. > :51:55.are built on its performance in the last European elections when it came
:51:56. > :52:02.second in the polls. Last year we got nearly a quarter of the vote. We
:52:03. > :52:07.have come second in all of the last by-elections. We haven't yet got
:52:08. > :52:13.over the line but we are getting closer. Ed Miliband is calling for
:52:14. > :52:17.an independent review of Pfizer's takeover of AstraZeneca, and accused
:52:18. > :52:26.the Prime Minister of acting as a cheerleader for the deal. He also
:52:27. > :52:28.said the Labour Party would introduce a tougher test before such
:52:29. > :52:33.takeovers could go ahead. That's all from me. The next news is on BBC One
:52:34. > :52:36.at one o'clock. Back to Andrew in a moment. First, a look at what's
:52:37. > :52:38.coming up immediately after this programme. We will have a special
:52:39. > :52:45.edition from York, asking just one question, is it rational to believe
:52:46. > :52:47.in God? See you at ten o'clock on BBC One.
:52:48. > :52:54.Ed Miliband is still here, and we're joined once more by Nigel Farage. Do
:52:55. > :52:59.you think tube workers should go to work next week? That is a matter for
:53:00. > :53:03.them but I think the strike as a whole should not be going ahead and
:53:04. > :53:10.both sides should get round a table to sort this out. Apparently David
:53:11. > :53:16.Cameron is going to debate with you after all, are you delighted about
:53:17. > :53:20.that? Until you read the small print. Very often David Cameron
:53:21. > :53:24.makes these vague promises, then doesn't deliver. I don't think he's
:53:25. > :53:32.got any intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps
:53:33. > :53:36.Ed Miliband wants to debate with me? We have got to have the TV debates
:53:37. > :53:41.as we did at the last election. David Cameron is doing everything he
:53:42. > :53:47.can to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters who they invite.
:53:48. > :53:53.My main desire is that the debates go ahead. The Prime Minister doesn't
:53:54. > :53:59.own these debates, and he cannot wriggle out of them. Who will be the
:54:00. > :54:04.three of four in the debates, couldn't we have lots of debates
:54:05. > :54:10.between the leaders? Would you debate with Nigel Farage? Nick Clegg
:54:11. > :54:18.debated with Nigel Farage, others can judge how well he got on. Let's
:54:19. > :54:22.have a head-to-head. I am happy to debate about all the main issues we
:54:23. > :54:31.face, but my main desire is to have general election debates. This is a
:54:32. > :54:35.European election we are fighting in two weeks. We want a general
:54:36. > :54:43.election debates and that is where my focus is. Frankly, we need to get
:54:44. > :54:48.David Cameron to the debates. If the broadcasters want to invite Nigel,
:54:49. > :54:56.that's fine with me. So if the broadcaster sets up a debate between
:54:57. > :55:03.yourself and Nigel Farage? As part of overall general election debates.
:55:04. > :55:09.Could you take him on and beat him in a debate, do you think? I do
:55:10. > :55:14.think that, but the focus for me is the general election debates. From
:55:15. > :55:18.what I can see, your party isn't even discussing the European
:55:19. > :55:24.question. You don't want to have a referendum. Let's do it in the next
:55:25. > :55:28.fortnight. We are talking about these issues, and you want to get
:55:29. > :55:34.out of the European Union and I think that would cost jobs in this
:55:35. > :55:45.country. You should also look at your issues on what you say. You
:55:46. > :55:50.don't somehow think you are the heir to Margaret Thatcher on policy? The
:55:51. > :55:54.one thing that happened during the 1980s that needs to happen again is
:55:55. > :56:03.that the size of the state was reduced. We have got to reduce the
:56:04. > :56:10.size of the state. Luck Nigel wants a flat tax, who once tax rises for
:56:11. > :56:20.the poorest, bigger cuts in services. The debate has started,
:56:21. > :56:24.this is a good thing. We will have more of that debate in due course!
:56:25. > :56:27.That's it for this week. Next Sunday I'll be talking to David Cameron
:56:28. > :56:30.plus the actress, Imelda Staunton. And right now, ending this show as
:56:31. > :56:33.promised, Sharon Jones and the Dap-Kings. The band played on the
:56:34. > :56:37.hugely successful Amy Winehouse album Back To Black. They've just
:56:38. > :56:39.arrived in Europe for a string of gigs, including Glastonbury and
:56:40. > :56:43.London's Shepherds Bush Empire in June. Here they are with a track
:56:44. > :56:58.from the album Give The People What They Want. This is 'We Get Along'.
:56:59. > :57:04.# There's a child crying all by himself.
:57:05. > :57:08.# His parents left him by the time he was 12.
:57:09. > :57:15.# He feels all alone. # He don't want to live.
:57:16. > :57:18.# He'll get along, I'm not often wrong.
:57:19. > :57:23.# (We get along) # Through all of our lives.
:57:24. > :57:25.# (We get along) # Through sorrows and strife.
:57:26. > :57:32.# (We get along) # Through all of our lives.
:57:33. > :57:37.# (We get along) # Through sorrows and strife.
:57:38. > :57:41.# There's something' a brewin' up in the sky.
:57:42. > :57:46.# We stuck inside with the candle light.
:57:47. > :57:48.# But the sun is comin' with all of its might.
:57:49. > :57:54.# I know, I know it'll be all right. its might.
:57:55. > :57:58.# (Through darkness and its might.
:57:59. > :58:05.# (Through sorrow and pain). # We prove again and again.
:58:06. > :58:09.# (We get along). # Through all of our lives.
:58:10. > :58:14.# (We get along) # Through sorrows and strife.
:58:15. > :58:18.# (We get along). # Through all of our lives.
:58:19. > :58:32.# (We get along). # Through sorrows and strife.
:58:33. > :58:37.# As these wars keep rolling on. # All our young ones are fighting
:58:38. > :58:42.strong. # Who's to know if it's right or
:58:43. > :58:48.wrong. # I just know we got to get along.
:58:49. > :58:50.# We got to (get up). # And come together.
:58:51. > :58:53.# (Get up). # And come together.
:58:54. > :58:55.# Don't you know we got to (get up). # And come together.
:58:56. > :59:01.# (Get up). # And come together.
:59:02. > :59:05.# (Get up). # Just come together.
:59:06. > :59:08.# Don't you know we got to # (Get up).
:59:09. > :59:12.# And come together. # Don't you know we got to (get up)
:59:13. > :59:15.# And come together. # (Get up) # And come together.
:59:16. > :59:18.# (Get up) # Just come together. # Don't you know we got to # (Get
:59:19. > :59:30.up). # And come together.
:59:31. > :59:36.It's shocking it'd happen in a public place.
:59:37. > :59:38.I don't find it funny, but I don't find it offensive.
:59:39. > :59:40.It really is vile. Shock value sells.
:59:41. > :59:44.Men are even less tolerant of women than they were before.
:59:45. > :59:47.The hatred of women. Some people are offended.