:00:32. > :00:37.The single best piece of writing in today's Sunday papers is a report by
:00:38. > :00:40.the Observer's Robert McCrum about a farewell appearance - not the last,
:00:41. > :00:44.I'm sure - by the great Clive James, poet, TV star and acerbic Aussie,
:00:45. > :00:52.McCrum reminds his readers of some of the great Clive
:00:53. > :00:56.Perrry Como - "a man giving an impression
:00:57. > :01:00.of saying cheese and being shot in the back by a poisoned arrow."
:01:01. > :01:06."She was as good at playing abstract confusion in the same way that
:01:07. > :01:15.And joining me today for our review of the Sunday newspapers, the former
:01:16. > :01:17.chair of the Equalities Commission, Trevor Phillips, and the
:01:18. > :01:21.After UKIP's triumph, has British politics changed
:01:22. > :01:26.decisively, or is this just another protest bubble about to burst?
:01:27. > :01:30.The UKIP leader celebrated poll success in his usual style but,
:01:31. > :01:33.as he takes his band of 24 MEPs to Brussels and prepares
:01:34. > :01:37.for next May's general election, voters may be asking, "Is this a
:01:38. > :01:44.But apart from being anti-immigration and anti-Brussels,
:01:45. > :01:50.I'll be talking to Nigel Farage about taxes, gay rights, housing,
:01:51. > :01:55.And in his first major TV interview since those results, about where he
:01:56. > :02:04.There was a time when the Lib Dems were seen as the insurgents.
:02:05. > :02:05.Back then, Paddy Ashdown was their leader.
:02:06. > :02:08.Hammered by the voters, has his party learned any lessons
:02:09. > :02:21.Beyond politics, we've got two real radicals.
:02:22. > :02:24.Originally a graphic artist and member of the Pythons.
:02:25. > :02:26.Terry Gilliam is now a renowned artist,
:02:27. > :02:29.Plus, the great Jimmy Wales, creator of Wikipedia,
:02:30. > :02:33.who joins us as a major European crackdown on the web begins.
:02:34. > :02:36.Lots to discover this morning but let's start with the news
:02:37. > :02:41.An American soldier, who has been a prisoner of the Taliban for
:02:42. > :02:46.Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl is the only US soldier to have been
:02:47. > :02:51.He was released in exchange for five insurgents who were being
:02:52. > :02:54.held at Guantanamo Bay and is now being taken to
:02:55. > :03:04.My name is Bowe Bergdahl and I was born on March 20th, 1986.
:03:05. > :03:06.For nearly five years, videos like this one released
:03:07. > :03:11.by the Taliban were the only glimpse the world had of Bowe Bergdahl.
:03:12. > :03:14.He was handed over to the US Special Forces in eastern Afghanistan
:03:15. > :03:20.For his parents, a phone call from President Obama brought the news
:03:21. > :03:28.We just can't communicate the words this morning when we heard
:03:29. > :03:33.from the President, so we look forward to continuing the recovery
:03:34. > :03:38.of our son, which is going to be a considerable task for our family.
:03:39. > :03:40.For President Obama, it is a successful outcome
:03:41. > :03:44.after some complex negotiations with the Taliban, mediated
:03:45. > :03:51.As a parent, I can't imagine the hardship you have gone through.
:03:52. > :03:55.I know I speak for all Americans when I say, we cannot wait
:03:56. > :04:03.for the moment when you are reunited and your son is back in your arms.
:04:04. > :04:06.In exchange, the US is releasing five senior Taliban fighters
:04:07. > :04:11.They have been transferred to the custody of the Qatari government,
:04:12. > :04:16.who say the men will not be allowed to return to fight in Afghanistan.
:04:17. > :04:21.The yellow ribbons tied around Bowe's home in Idaho
:04:22. > :04:23.as a reminder of the missing soldier were replaced with celebratory
:04:24. > :04:32.balloons in anticipation of a very happy homecoming.
:04:33. > :04:35.Football's world governing body FIFA is facing calls to re-run the
:04:36. > :04:40.contest to host the 2022 World Cup, amid new allegations of corruption.
:04:41. > :04:43.The Sunday Times suggests a former FIFA executive paid
:04:44. > :04:47.football officials to ensure Qatar's bid was successful.
:04:48. > :04:52.Similar claims in the past have been denied.
:04:53. > :04:54.If the allegations prove to be true then clearly
:04:55. > :04:58.I think it makes Sepp Blatter's position almost untenable.
:04:59. > :05:02.He has known about these rumours for quite some time and apparently
:05:03. > :05:08.It must beg the question as to whether or not we should rerun
:05:09. > :05:11.the whole of the 2022 competition and see whether guitar generally
:05:12. > :05:18.Police are investigating yesterday's accidents at a car rally
:05:19. > :05:23.Three people were killed and one person is critically ill after
:05:24. > :05:28.Another car taking part in the event had earlier hit five people,
:05:29. > :05:36.A Christian woman, sentenced to death in Sudan
:05:37. > :05:39.for refusing to convert to Islam, will be released within days
:05:40. > :05:44.There's been growing condemnation of the treatment of Meriem Ibrahim,
:05:45. > :05:47.who gave birth to her daughter in prison earlier this week.
:05:48. > :05:49.A Sudanese Foreign Ministry official said the Government was
:05:50. > :05:55.Employers who fail to pay the minimum wage to their workers
:05:56. > :06:00.A bill in the Queen's Speech would make employers liable to
:06:01. > :06:04.a penalty of ?20,000 for each member of staff they underpaid.
:06:05. > :06:07.The Liberal Democrats and Conservatives are both claiming
:06:08. > :06:14.I'll be back with the headlines just before 10am.
:06:15. > :06:33.The Sunday Times has devoted considerable resources about
:06:34. > :06:38.investigation into money and FIFA and why a small, hot,
:06:39. > :06:42.non-footballing country has got the 2022 FIFA cake. The Sunday Telegraph
:06:43. > :06:59.has a story about radical reforms. Something about eight the GT star
:07:00. > :07:38.faces assault charges. -- a BGT. The Sunday Times investigation team
:07:39. > :07:47.is back in its old form. This is British papers at its best. I also
:07:48. > :07:59.notice it is on the front page of the Son. The results are extremely
:08:00. > :08:04.concerning. Surely this means they can and must rerun the contest? Get
:08:05. > :08:13.a Mac I do not know if they can. They have already started work on
:08:14. > :08:26.building the stadiums. -- I do not know if they can. Fellow ministers
:08:27. > :08:37.in the Cabinet will be looking at this, won't they? Undoubtedly. Good
:08:38. > :08:47.comments have been made. There is quite a big problem in expecting
:08:48. > :08:53.Sepp Blatter to deal with corruption. The biggest issue in
:08:54. > :08:58.sport is money. Retirees have more and are prepared to spend more than
:08:59. > :09:10.anybody else. They will spend anything to get this. ) I suggesting
:09:11. > :09:18.money is corrupting football? This discovery has come late. -- are you
:09:19. > :09:24.suggesting? Neither of the people you are featuring in the Observer of
:09:25. > :09:29.Corinthians. One of the many stories about the after-shocks of the Nigel
:09:30. > :09:38.Frodsham earthquake. A group of Labour MPs have now written to Ed
:09:39. > :09:44.Miliband saying we have to attack, take account of UKIP and so on.
:09:45. > :09:52.People have to hold their nerve on this. I do not think that is the
:09:53. > :09:56.answer. There are only two political parties in the West who have been
:09:57. > :10:01.successful on this question of immigration. They are both
:10:02. > :10:09.centre-right parties. They are in government. Immigration has risen
:10:10. > :10:14.under both those governments. The Germans have 437,000 net immigration
:10:15. > :10:18.a year, twice what we have and the Canadians regularly quarter of a
:10:19. > :10:26.million. Angela Merkel got re-elected. They both got re-elected
:10:27. > :10:30.in the same year. Why? They took this issue one head-on and they
:10:31. > :10:36.said, we are countries that need immigration. They won the argument.
:10:37. > :10:41.They are both positive towards immigrants. The Canadians, in
:10:42. > :10:47.Canada, a Tory Party, a lesson for your guys, the Tory Party is more
:10:48. > :10:51.popular among immigrants than it is among the population in general. I
:10:52. > :10:54.agree with so much of what you say. Different people have different
:10:55. > :10:59.reasons for taking a view on immigration. There are certain parts
:11:00. > :11:04.of the country where there has been a huge influx in people. If you do
:11:05. > :11:09.not get the schools and the hospitals, people get fed up with
:11:10. > :11:13.it. That is what the Canadians and the Germans have done
:11:14. > :11:18.systematically. I think we have to take this on and be upfront about
:11:19. > :11:23.it. Immigrants have played a hugely important role in our society. They
:11:24. > :11:28.come over here overwhelmingly to work. They do not come here to
:11:29. > :11:31.scrounge. There are far fewer immigrants claiming benefit than
:11:32. > :11:36.people who have been born and bred in our country. We must have that
:11:37. > :11:40.debate. When you make the case with people who see me in my constituency
:11:41. > :11:46.surgery who say, I am really worried about immigration. We say, we do not
:11:47. > :11:55.have a problem with immigrants. We explain all that to them and they
:11:56. > :11:59.get it. Not all of them because some people are racist and have
:12:00. > :12:05.prejudices. People do not know the arguments because that is the debate
:12:06. > :12:09.we have not had. Can we get the UKIP earthquake into perspective? Full
:12:10. > :12:13.credit, they won the European Union elections. They came top and they
:12:14. > :12:19.beat my party and they beat the Labour Party. 90% of the people in
:12:20. > :12:24.this country did not vote and certainly did not vote for UKIP and
:12:25. > :12:30.so this so-called as quake represents less than 10% of the
:12:31. > :12:35.public. The real story is that gentlemen there, Ed Miliband, and
:12:36. > :12:41.his party. In areas like mine, frankly Labour should have done a
:12:42. > :12:45.lot better. I was in my own constituency in Newark yesterday.
:12:46. > :12:54.You hardly see Labour in Newark. Labour must get their act together.
:12:55. > :12:58.Can I just ask you? Your party is still determined to have tens of
:12:59. > :13:04.thousands of immigrants coming in. That looks like an impossible target
:13:05. > :13:08.to many of us. We have reduced net migration. As I said earlier, it
:13:09. > :13:13.does not look as if we will achieve it. That does not mean we are not
:13:14. > :13:18.right in trying to achieve it and we have made that clear. The real
:13:19. > :13:23.argument is making sure people understand the value of immigrants
:13:24. > :13:28.in our country. We must make sure we do things properly. It would be
:13:29. > :13:32.great if Anna were in charge. Unfortunately, that is not the
:13:33. > :13:37.message we are getting from government. Let's move on to the
:13:38. > :13:49.next story. It is about trams in Edinburgh. Al Athis is more
:13:50. > :13:54.important. This is more important. I am delighted to hear this woman will
:13:55. > :13:58.be set free. It is one of many stories that has concerned people
:13:59. > :14:04.this week. She faces execution for no other reason than she is a
:14:05. > :14:08.Christian. We have had the terrible case of the two girls who were raped
:14:09. > :14:13.and then hanged and the stoning to death in Pakistan. I do not think
:14:14. > :14:18.there was an increase, it is mainly misogynist. It is the fact the world
:14:19. > :14:23.is waking up to it and governments must do something about it. There is
:14:24. > :14:29.a war against women which is coming to light. We should be able to do
:14:30. > :14:34.more about these issues. The General Assembly is apparently about to
:14:35. > :14:39.elect Ugandan minister as its president. This is a guy who ushered
:14:40. > :14:45.through legislation which essentially said in Uganda it is OK
:14:46. > :15:00.to kill gay people. That must never happen. I hope our government... I
:15:01. > :15:07.am on board -- be bored with an organisation called Kaleidoscope. --
:15:08. > :15:12.I am on the board. This guy should not be able to show his face and I
:15:13. > :15:25.hope the Government takes this to heart. Well said! Who do you have a
:15:26. > :15:30.picture of? That is a great picture about who is going up in government.
:15:31. > :15:41.Funnily enough, I wonder who this is. Anna and Esther. I'll tell you
:15:42. > :15:45.what is great fun about this, hopefully for you and me. All of
:15:46. > :15:51.these people have had their time in television. It says something about
:15:52. > :16:02.modern politics. The successful people are people who can deal with
:16:03. > :16:06.this medium. Nicky Morgan is sitting in the cabinet. There is no
:16:07. > :16:12.photograph of her. I am really eager to get onto the story of Edinburgh
:16:13. > :16:17.tram. At the moment there is a tram line going through my constituency,
:16:18. > :16:26.which is a nightmare, but I don't have a problem with trams. As a form
:16:27. > :16:30.of public transport we have had in Nottingham for many years, it brings
:16:31. > :16:35.a modernity. They are very expensive. In Edinburgh, I don't
:16:36. > :16:40.know what happened, but it has overrun on time and budget. In
:16:41. > :16:46.Nottingham, they have nailed down the contractors so that for every
:16:47. > :16:58.week it goes over, they have to pay extra money. Full credit to the
:16:59. > :17:01.government forgiving astonishing levels of money to the
:17:02. > :17:05.infrastructure, but if you are not careful it can destroy the economy
:17:06. > :17:08.you are hoping to rebuild unless you do it absolutely right. And
:17:09. > :17:15.alongside that there is a story about the boy who has gone missing
:17:16. > :17:20.in Malaysia. Yes, I know that his mother has contacted the Prime
:17:21. > :17:26.Minister about it. I certainly will not hesitate... I mean I can make
:17:27. > :17:31.sure and I understand the boss watches this programme so he will
:17:32. > :17:37.hear that and we will do everything we can. The family wants special
:17:38. > :17:40.forces to be involved. I think what they really want is for the
:17:41. > :17:47.Malaysian government to take it seriously and find out where he is.
:17:48. > :17:54.Trevor. This is one of my favourites of the day. As one of the people who
:17:55. > :18:01.piloted age discrimination legislation a few years back,
:18:02. > :18:07.Richard Ingram, editor of the Oldie, says he has essentially had enough
:18:08. > :18:17.of modern methods of management employed by his boss. He is leaving
:18:18. > :18:31.the Oldie, and the editor goes grumpy, it says, because of young
:18:32. > :18:38.men coming in. The editor sacked him for being grumpy. Any more stories
:18:39. > :18:42.from either of you? No, the papers have been dominated by much of the
:18:43. > :18:48.stuff we have already discussed, and that in itself is quite interesting.
:18:49. > :18:53.Can we talk about this, don't go to hospital. One of the reasons why the
:18:54. > :18:58.rates are higher at the weekend is because there are number of surgeons
:18:59. > :19:02.who will take the more difficult cases who operated the weekends when
:19:03. > :19:09.they can give more time, and that is one of the reasons that may explain
:19:10. > :19:14.it. For now, we will see you both later on. Now to the weather
:19:15. > :19:19.forecast. It is the 1st of June so it should be starting to feel
:19:20. > :19:20.summery, and it is, but to find out what's in store lets go to Tomasz
:19:21. > :19:32.Schafernaker. It is going to feel summary for the
:19:33. > :19:36.1st of June, but by tomorrow it is all change and the weather will go
:19:37. > :19:42.down the plug hole a little bit, to be honest. Look at that weather
:19:43. > :19:45.across England and Wales and the east of Scotland, but this is the
:19:46. > :19:51.beginning of the unsettled weather heading our way. If it is sunny
:19:52. > :19:55.right now, you can get out there and enjoy the best of it. The cloud is
:19:56. > :20:03.increasing over western areas as we speak, and a few spots of rain will
:20:04. > :20:09.be moving into the western fringes of Scotland, Wales and the
:20:10. > :20:14.south-west of England. In the east temperatures reaching 22 degrees.
:20:15. > :20:20.Then overnight, rain and drizzle moving in. A very warm night, the
:20:21. > :20:28.east probably stays dry. Then when you wake up, wet air, drizzle, then
:20:29. > :20:33.towards the end of the day it looks like the sunshine will tease us once
:20:34. > :20:35.again. Enjoy the sunshine today if you have it because it is all change
:20:36. > :20:43.tomorrow. Should we have the right to erase
:20:44. > :20:47.data we don't like Should we know how far surveillance
:20:48. > :20:51.goes in our super high-tech world? Should companies like Google
:20:52. > :20:54.be compelled to censor data? All these questions are hot topics
:20:55. > :20:57.at the moment and are very much in the mind of one of the internet's
:20:58. > :21:01.undisputed legends - Jimmy Wales. The American-born entrepreneur is
:21:02. > :21:03.best known as the founder of the era-defining,
:21:04. > :21:13.online encyclopaedia Wikipedia. Can I talk first about this new
:21:14. > :21:19.European ruling meaning anyone can apply to have information about
:21:20. > :21:28.themselves struck out of Google's search engines. That's right, and it
:21:29. > :21:34.is quite broad in a way most people found surprising. One of them was a
:21:35. > :21:39.link from Google to a newspaper story that was legally published,
:21:40. > :21:44.still available online, so it is about true facts published in
:21:45. > :21:49.newspapers that can no longer be linked by Google. In theory, if I am
:21:50. > :21:54.a corrupt business person and I have had a series of convictions from the
:21:55. > :21:58.past, I can apply to Google and say, I don't want anyone to know about
:21:59. > :22:05.this any more, and a committee will have to decide the rules on which I
:22:06. > :22:08.am successful or I fail. Basically I have joined this panel with Google
:22:09. > :22:12.but it is not just about advising Google what to do, our view is to
:22:13. > :22:18.have a broader remit to say, actually how can we change the law
:22:19. > :22:23.to strike a better balancing between privacy and free speech so that we
:22:24. > :22:27.don't have these clumsy cases in which we have to determine whether
:22:28. > :22:33.they are legally allowed to link to a newspaper story or not. That is a
:22:34. > :22:38.decision that should be left to the courts at best. A lot of people
:22:39. > :22:49.don't like their own Wikipedia Internet site, is it possible to
:22:50. > :22:53.apply for that to be removed? We are very open to corrections and people
:22:54. > :22:58.who have concerns about their entry, but I just got a fantastically long
:22:59. > :23:03.e-mail from somebody who has been complaining about their Wikipedia
:23:04. > :23:10.entry for many years, a convicted fraudster. For us, we would not take
:23:11. > :23:15.something like that down, but what is interesting is that maybe Google
:23:16. > :23:20.will not be able to link to it. Do you think this is a moment in the
:23:21. > :23:25.story of the Internet age which is a serious one? In other words we are
:23:26. > :23:31.moving to a stage where governments are trying to grab power? Without
:23:32. > :23:37.question. I've never seen something like this from Western democracies
:23:38. > :23:44.generally. We have the same kind of rules that apply in China. Google is
:23:45. > :23:48.not allowed to link to certain things in China. I believe the most
:23:49. > :23:52.likely response from Google will be very transparent, I will encourage
:23:53. > :24:00.them to be very transparent about what they are no longer linking to.
:24:01. > :24:04.What is this going to do to the price of the Internet? If companies
:24:05. > :24:10.are having to spend more time censoring and engaging in legal
:24:11. > :24:13.battles, which seemed inevitable. It's not just a matter of the
:24:14. > :24:18.Internet companies and the gusts associated with that, we also have
:24:19. > :24:22.to be concerned about newspapers who now find it possible that Google
:24:23. > :24:27.will not link to certain stories and they are going to have to go through
:24:28. > :24:30.a legal process. We know that the newspapers are in financially dire
:24:31. > :24:35.straits anyway so given the fragility of the free press, we
:24:36. > :24:39.should stand back and take a look at this. Do you think this is
:24:40. > :24:47.inevitable, trying to seize power over the Internet? No, because the
:24:48. > :24:55.Internet is apparently global. When Google censors links to China, which
:24:56. > :24:59.they used to do but don't do any more, they don't sense of the US
:25:00. > :25:04.version. That is not going to happen. There are always areas and
:25:05. > :25:10.many search engines around Europe who will not abide by these rules.
:25:11. > :25:16.We are sitting here in the wake of the WikiLeaks saga, and Edward
:25:17. > :25:22.Snowden's revelations. I think you regard Edward Snowden as a hero but
:25:23. > :25:30.Julian Assange is less than that, why is that? History will tell us,
:25:31. > :25:34.but I do think that Edward Snowden has been very good and very
:25:35. > :25:40.principled in the things he has released. He seems to be deeply
:25:41. > :25:44.concerned about the US Constitution and the propriety of the US
:25:45. > :25:51.government in a way that Julian Assange has been more difficult for
:25:52. > :25:58.people... Edward Snowden is in now this terrible position of being
:25:59. > :26:02.asked to come back to be tried. I don't envy the position that he is
:26:03. > :26:07.in. It is very difficult to know what the future holds for him.
:26:08. > :26:15.British authorities say he has endangering lives of course. -- he
:26:16. > :26:22.has endangered lives. That's right, and it is a very dangerous
:26:23. > :26:25.assertion. I think it is time. As we think about what kind of
:26:26. > :26:30.surveillance we want, we have to have some openness and transparency
:26:31. > :26:34.so that the Government can make an informed decision about it. That
:26:35. > :26:39.does mean that some of the things are going to be known but that is
:26:40. > :27:02.the price of a free society. I read that you were annoyed by the word
:27:03. > :27:19.Wiki forward to leaks and its association with Wikipedia. Yes, a
:27:20. > :27:20.Wiki is something anybody can add to and can be created from all over the
:27:21. > :27:25.world. And Jimmy Wales will be taking part
:27:26. > :27:28.in a New Statesman Latitude debate on surveillance at King's College
:27:29. > :27:31.London this Tuesday evening. It's been a tumultuous week
:27:32. > :27:33.for the Lib Dems, digesting their awful elections
:27:34. > :27:36.results, Nick Clegg appearing tired and emotional - in the true sense -
:27:37. > :27:39.to defend his leadership. Then details seeping out
:27:40. > :27:42.of an alleged ploy by Lord Oakeshott Vince Cable,
:27:43. > :27:45.on the other side of the world And to cap it all, the case of Lord
:27:46. > :27:51.Rennard and his behaviour towards How should Mr Clegg
:27:52. > :27:54.deal with all this? I'm joined by his most experienced
:27:55. > :28:06.and battle-hardened adviser, Paddy Ashdown to you, Andrew. These
:28:07. > :28:11.were pretty awful results for the Lib Dems, you have been a steely
:28:12. > :28:15.defender of Nick Clegg's leadership, so if the leadership is not going to
:28:16. > :28:20.change, what short? I think the party should get out and start
:28:21. > :28:27.campaigning for the next election. Let me put it to you this way. We
:28:28. > :28:30.have come out of four years where we have been part of the Government of
:28:31. > :28:33.our country because we believed it was in the interests of the country
:28:34. > :28:37.to be part of that and provide a stable government. We have helped to
:28:38. > :28:42.get this country out of the deepest economic recession of recent times,
:28:43. > :28:48.we should be proud of that record. We never believed the mid-term
:28:49. > :28:53.elections were going to be easy for us. They were more tough than we
:28:54. > :28:56.expected but nobody expected any dividends from this. I have to say
:28:57. > :29:01.that what happened after those elections has made a bad situation
:29:02. > :29:06.worse. We now know there has been a plot of deep malice to try to remove
:29:07. > :29:11.the leader. I have a very clear message for the party and that is,
:29:12. > :29:15.anything you do now which is not getting out on the streets,
:29:16. > :29:19.campaigning in the context of the next general election which is where
:29:20. > :29:22.we can put our proposition about how we behaved in Government behind a
:29:23. > :29:29.fine leader and I think a fine record, is a distraction and a
:29:30. > :29:34.dangerous one. Stop it now. First of all, going back to what the voters
:29:35. > :29:39.said, this was a European election and your leader went on television
:29:40. > :29:45.with a debate against Nigel Farage and lost those debates. Are you
:29:46. > :30:00.still absolutely the party of in? Wanting major changes. We have made
:30:01. > :30:06.it very clear we are the party of in. Nick Clegg has managed to fill a
:30:07. > :30:07.vacuum that no other politician dared to fill when arguing for
:30:08. > :30:28.Europe. We do need to reform Europe. We need
:30:29. > :30:34.to make a Democratic link. No one said it should not be reformed. It
:30:35. > :30:41.seemed that Nigel Ferrari 's was talking about democracy and the lack
:30:42. > :30:47.of democratic accountability and Nick Clack less so. How do you
:30:48. > :30:52.address that? I do not think it is easy. I think Europe is the greatest
:30:53. > :31:03.idea of our time. In a globalised world, with an -- with America
:31:04. > :31:08.looking across the Atlantic and highly aggressive Russian president,
:31:09. > :31:13.Europe pulling its sovereignty to work together in delivering to
:31:14. > :31:16.citizens security for jobs, crime on the streets, it can only be done if
:31:17. > :31:19.we work together on the international scene. It is the
:31:20. > :31:24.greatest idea to come out of Europe in our time. There is a problem we
:31:25. > :31:32.have not yet sold and that is, how do you create the European
:31:33. > :31:41.democratic politics? How do you sorted that, you may have done
:31:42. > :31:47.better. -- had you. We have to experiment. No one has got there
:31:48. > :31:54.yet. Creating that is important. The answer is not to throw out the baby
:31:55. > :31:59.with the bath water. I have to say, I cannot think of a more stupid
:32:00. > :32:06.answer to a global problem which now confronts Europe in that we would
:32:07. > :32:14.treat to the sovereignty of quarks floating behind other people 's
:32:15. > :32:22.ocean liners. It is madness. This is in the face of huge economic powers.
:32:23. > :32:25.Last week, Theresa May said they were looking at much tougher
:32:26. > :32:29.immigration measures, including deporting people who could not get
:32:30. > :32:39.jobs. Would the Liberal Democrats drop that? Immigration is intensely
:32:40. > :32:42.valuable to Britain. I think the figures the other day from the
:32:43. > :32:50.Office for Budget Responsibility said 250,000 immigrants increased
:32:51. > :32:54.GDP by something like 40%. We have 40,000 immigrant doctors in the NHS.
:32:55. > :33:01.It would not work. We have benefited hugely from immigration. We have had
:33:02. > :33:05.4 million people coming in over the last years and has radically change
:33:06. > :33:12.the nature of many communities are many people feel upset about it and
:33:13. > :33:18.uneasy about it. Where has it happened most? Answer, London. It
:33:19. > :33:21.has benefited hugely from the fact it is an international community.
:33:22. > :33:29.Where did UKIP to least well? London. Those that argue there
:33:30. > :33:36.should be some isolationist policy have had least effect in the area of
:33:37. > :33:39.our country which is most multicultural and multiethnic. The
:33:40. > :33:43.Conservatives want to bring in the new immigration measures and we have
:33:44. > :33:48.been told about them. Do you think your party will block those? I would
:33:49. > :33:52.say unlikely but let's have a look. I might be that we will not block
:33:53. > :33:59.them and let those go through. But let's have a look. I'm not prepared
:34:00. > :34:03.to say I would condemn a series of legislation unless I see it. What
:34:04. > :34:07.needs to be preserved, which is at the heart of Europe and our
:34:08. > :34:11.prosperity which springs out of Europe, is the free movement of
:34:12. > :34:18.goods and the free movement of people. I am prepared to see any
:34:19. > :34:26.reform at the process of immigration. If you want to bring in
:34:27. > :34:34.things which access -- which limit access to welfare, let me say this,
:34:35. > :34:38.if we part company with our primary partners in Europe, we will have
:34:39. > :34:43.less influence in the world, less ability to create jobs, less crime
:34:44. > :34:47.free streets, all of the things I want the British citizen to have our
:34:48. > :34:52.better delivered by working with our friends in Europe. Let's talk about
:34:53. > :34:57.the plot of the malice. That involves more than one person. How
:34:58. > :35:03.many people do you think were involved? Is Vince Cable part of
:35:04. > :35:10.this? You have to accept it at its face value. You promised to remove
:35:11. > :35:16.the head of Matthew Oakeshott and various parts of his anatomy that I
:35:17. > :35:21.cannot talk about. Do you wish you had torn his balls off? I said, you
:35:22. > :35:27.are famous for making difficult days of party more difficult. I said if
:35:28. > :35:31.you do that after May the 23rd, I will remove your head and then your
:35:32. > :35:37.testicles. He dashed off to the press and said, Paddy Ashdown is
:35:38. > :35:42.being nasty to me. He is a member of the special forces and maybe he can
:35:43. > :35:48.really do this. He knows a metaphor when he sees it. He did do precisely
:35:49. > :35:51.what I thought. I do not have to do anything for Matthew Oakeshott
:35:52. > :35:57.because I think the party has done it for him. He has been very closely
:35:58. > :36:03.tied for many years to Vince Cable, who was out of the country when all
:36:04. > :36:10.of this happened. You really saying you have no worries about the role
:36:11. > :36:19.of Vince Cable in theirs? One of the rules of politics is choose your
:36:20. > :36:22.yardage carefully. Let's talk about your book about the resistance in
:36:23. > :36:29.France. It's an account of people who very bravely. They attacked the
:36:30. > :36:34.Germans on D-day and then they were betrayed, won't they? I think they
:36:35. > :36:39.were abandoned, more than betrayed, in truth. In many ways, the book I
:36:40. > :36:47.have written has taken me three and a half years. It is the hidden story
:36:48. > :36:53.of D-day. We know the position of almost every soldier on the beaches
:36:54. > :37:00.of D-day. We know nothing about the French, who were told to rise at
:37:01. > :37:06.10am on the 5th of June 70 years ago. The BBC in London sent out 180
:37:07. > :37:14.messages to resistance movements all over France. They all meant the same
:37:15. > :37:17.thing. D-day is tomorrow, your liberation is at hand, rise and
:37:18. > :37:22.fight. Eisenhower made the crucial decision. The original plan was to
:37:23. > :37:24.raise resistance behind the norm and fight. Eisenhower made the crucial
:37:25. > :37:27.decision. The original plan was to raise resistance behind the norm in
:37:28. > :37:32.daily beaches. The whole of France had to rise. -- Normandie flight. He
:37:33. > :37:36.knew he could not protect the resistance units in the south. He
:37:37. > :37:40.had to do it because he was nervous that unless he kept the Germans
:37:41. > :37:43.guessing about the simultaneous seven innovation he could not
:37:44. > :37:48.succeed. I dedicate the book to the boy in the white shirt who fought
:37:49. > :37:52.the Germans with Bren guns, sometimes in the shirt they had left
:37:53. > :37:57.home in only hours before. They are quite as much casualties and
:37:58. > :38:03.contributors as the troops on the beaches. This book is about what
:38:04. > :38:11.happens when a war becomes a civil war and is in the villages and towns
:38:12. > :38:18.that it is being fought, like Syria. There are modern resonances.
:38:19. > :38:23.Absolutely. When I was in the special forces, we used to have a
:38:24. > :38:27.phrase, big thumbs on the floor maps, that is the way to kill the
:38:28. > :38:30.charts. Whenever you have politicians who do not properly
:38:31. > :38:39.understand the consequences of the soldiers on the frontline by the
:38:40. > :38:48.decisions they take, you have tragedy on a grand scale. The story
:38:49. > :38:52.is full of betrayal, treachery, bad decisions and bad understandings by
:38:53. > :38:56.French generals and indeed by de Gaulle and arguably by Churchill.
:38:57. > :39:03.The people who paid the price for that the little man and the little
:39:04. > :39:09.boy in the shirt. He came up onto the plateau, bursting with, to help
:39:10. > :39:10.liberate his country and was sacrificed. Thank you very very much
:39:11. > :39:15.indeed for coming in to join us. Of all the Monty Pythons who went
:39:16. > :39:18.on to varied careers, none has enjoyed quite as colourful
:39:19. > :39:21.a career as Terry Gilliam. The man behind the artwork that
:39:22. > :39:24.helped give The Flying Circus its absurdist identity,
:39:25. > :39:26.Gilliam became one of Hollywood's He was responsible for some
:39:27. > :39:30.of the finest comedies and dramas Films like Brazil, The Fisher King,
:39:31. > :39:34.12 Monkeys, In recent years he's turned to
:39:35. > :39:39.directing operas to great acclaim. His latest production of one
:39:40. > :39:43.of Berlioz's most challenging works is about to open at the
:39:44. > :39:59.English National Opera. This opera is about an extraordinary
:40:00. > :40:03.Italian goldsmith, diarist and Bradman in the late Renaissance. It
:40:04. > :40:10.is said to be one of the hardest operas to put on anywhere. I do not
:40:11. > :40:17.know but I am learning, slowly. It has huge cast. Strangely, I
:40:18. > :40:22.criticised it in the way people criticise my work which is too many
:40:23. > :40:30.ideas. Someone should get in there and cut it down in size. We have
:40:31. > :40:35.tried. It is very compensated. We have made it even more complicated.
:40:36. > :40:42.We have got giant statues. We have an even Bigger Road to beat with.
:40:43. > :40:47.We have got giant statues. We have Trying to set it into the 19th
:40:48. > :40:51.century world, almost like a mining community on one hand, mixed with
:40:52. > :40:59.London, mixed with Italy. A lot of ideas all come crashing together. I
:41:00. > :41:07.think you said, doing this might kill me. Tommy about the pressures?
:41:08. > :41:11.Right now, I am diseased. We do our first and only dress rehearsal on
:41:12. > :41:18.Monday and then we will open. I have been thinking about it for a couple
:41:19. > :41:31.of years. I was fuelled into it because I read an autobiography and
:41:32. > :41:37.they wanted to make a film about it. -- lured. He creates murder, he does
:41:38. > :41:48.not get away with it. I got caught up in that tale. I did Faust a
:41:49. > :41:58.couple of years ago. There seemed to be potential disaster to avoid.
:41:59. > :42:03.After these films, which seem to be intensely political, what is the
:42:04. > :42:07.attraction of opera? People have been trying to get me for 25 years
:42:08. > :42:12.to do opera and I have always avoided it because I have been doing
:42:13. > :42:15.films. Now I am reaching the autumn years of My Life, I am teaching
:42:16. > :42:28.myself some new tricks. That is why get you into it. I do think there is
:42:29. > :42:35.a quality in opera like doing cartoons. My effort is to try to
:42:36. > :42:42.make them real people, rather than opera people. I hate that. Last week
:42:43. > :42:47.I said, try singing not like that but put your hands in your pocket
:42:48. > :42:54.and see if you can still doing it -- still do it. You're going back to
:42:55. > :43:02.the pipe and is reunion. You said you hope that it would have been
:43:03. > :43:06.cancelled. It was only because of the pressure and I was trying to do
:43:07. > :43:13.another film. I would be very selfish and think, if only I did not
:43:14. > :43:18.have to do the Pythons. The danger is, all of you guys like you more
:43:19. > :43:24.than the rest, have been hugely successful in later life. You have
:43:25. > :43:31.become the establishment you started out satirising. How will you feel?
:43:32. > :43:36.We will feel young again. We are young, scampi characters. It will go
:43:37. > :43:41.back to being how it was then. The minute the light comes on and we
:43:42. > :43:47.start doing the material, it is like time has stood still and we never
:43:48. > :43:51.left it. A couple of months ago, it was like nothing had changed. What
:43:52. > :43:56.have I done in those intervening years? I had been transported and
:43:57. > :44:02.everything subsequently had never occurred. What about your own
:44:03. > :44:12.politics? You came over to Britain, what are your politics? Are you an
:44:13. > :44:17.anarchist in your heart? In the last election, even though I did not
:44:18. > :44:25.agree with Nigel Raj, someone who gets out and says things, things
:44:26. > :44:31.that politicians are frightened to say, it is a bad thing. Everybody is
:44:32. > :44:37.tiptoeing nobody wants to put a foot wrong. It will used against them. We
:44:38. > :44:40.have him on right now. Thank you for leading into him so effortlessly.
:44:41. > :44:45.And for those of you who can't make it to the ENO in London for a bit
:44:46. > :44:47.of Berlioz, Benvenuto Cellini is being broadcast live to over 400
:44:48. > :44:54.cinemas around the UK and Ireland on Tuesday 17th June.
:44:55. > :44:56."The UKIP fox is in the Westminster henhouse" -
:44:57. > :44:59.Nigel Farage's typically colourful response to the recent local and
:45:00. > :45:06.European elections results is not quite true, because UKIP doesn't
:45:07. > :45:09.But that's of course their aim with the general
:45:10. > :45:12.election in less than a year away and by-elections in between.
:45:13. > :45:23.Are you confident you can go on and claim the clutch of MPs in the House
:45:24. > :45:28.of Commons, sufficient perhaps to have real influence? Yes, I am. I
:45:29. > :45:32.think the European election results caught the news but the more
:45:33. > :45:37.significant news for next year was that in the areas that we succeeded
:45:38. > :45:41.last year, where there were district council elections there as well,
:45:42. > :45:44.this year we are seeing areas where we are building up a good
:45:45. > :45:49.representation of UKIP and that changes the whole perception in the
:45:50. > :45:55.constituency. This is exactly what Paddy Ashdown did in the 1990s, they
:45:56. > :45:59.build on local strengths. So our strategy for the general election
:46:00. > :46:04.next year is that we will pick over the course of the summer our target
:46:05. > :46:12.seats and throw the kitchen sink at them. And do you know how many of
:46:13. > :46:16.those seats there will be? Not yet, but something like two dozen, three
:46:17. > :46:20.dozen, something where we can say to the electorate that we are winning
:46:21. > :46:25.council seats, we are the challenger here. We are in a strange position
:46:26. > :46:29.the moment with the polls, it doesn't yet seem that anybody is in
:46:30. > :46:33.a commanding position to have the overall majority at the next
:46:34. > :46:37.election which means that a party like yours, possibly with others,
:46:38. > :46:42.could have real influence so we need to know much more about your
:46:43. > :46:46.policies that go beyond immigration. That is fair enough. I have tried to
:46:47. > :46:54.fight the European elections on European issues. I know that nobody
:46:55. > :47:02.else wanted to talk about this stuff, but that is over and I accept
:47:03. > :47:06.that fully. We are going to have our annual conference this year in
:47:07. > :47:11.Doncaster, in Ed Miliband's constituency, and that is where we
:47:12. > :47:15.will lay out our manifesto. For those wanting a sense of where you
:47:16. > :47:20.are, you have always praised Margaret Thatcher hugely, are you
:47:21. > :47:25.essentially going to be a Thatcherite party? No, because that
:47:26. > :47:29.was of its time for two years ago to deal with a specific set of
:47:30. > :47:35.problems. It benefited half the country, for the other half it
:47:36. > :47:40.didn't. But it has had enduring policy ideas like lower tax and
:47:41. > :47:47.grammar schools. All of which have now gone. Do you want to bring them
:47:48. > :47:51.back? I want us to give millions of families the opportunity to give a
:47:52. > :47:56.better life -- to live a better life, because at the moment we are
:47:57. > :48:00.seeing the gap between the wealthy and the rest getting wider, and
:48:01. > :48:04.seeing the working population working longer hours having suffered
:48:05. > :48:10.huge wage compression with their household bills rising. We want a
:48:11. > :48:14.genuinely address the cost of living and address social mobility. You
:48:15. > :48:20.have been with UKIP since the beginning and one of its policies
:48:21. > :48:25.has been a flat rate of tax of 31%, is that still a policy? No, we are
:48:26. > :48:30.going to rethink the tax thing. I think that was badly explained
:48:31. > :48:35.because people thought, gosh, they are going to increase tax for the
:48:36. > :48:40.lower paid. I can tell you for certain our biggest tax objective
:48:41. > :48:45.will be no tax on the minimum wage. We have got to incentivise people to
:48:46. > :48:51.get back to work. That obviously will cost money. Does that mean you
:48:52. > :48:55.cannot promised tax cuts to the better off for instance? I think the
:48:56. > :48:58.top rate of tax in this country of around 40% is the one that will
:48:59. > :49:05.bring the most revenue into the Exchequer. 40% top rate of tax. I
:49:06. > :49:10.think that is what we will conclude, yes. Anything over 40 and
:49:11. > :49:15.you start to see people going overseas. We have got to worry about
:49:16. > :49:19.the millions of people on low pay, frankly without sufficient
:49:20. > :49:26.incentives to be in work. A grammar school in every town? Absolutely.
:49:27. > :49:30.The lack of social mobility in Britain is frankly quite shaming and
:49:31. > :49:35.I think selective education is one of the ways to give bright kids from
:49:36. > :49:40.poor backgrounds a real opportunity. You have set the welfare state is
:49:41. > :49:45.too big in the past, getting a smaller is difficult for any
:49:46. > :49:48.government. What are your ideas? Since 1997 there has been a boom in
:49:49. > :49:52.the public sector in this country for middle managers and above. Vast
:49:53. > :49:55.numbers of people throughout local for middle managers and above. Vast
:49:56. > :50:00.numbers of people government and the health service and elsewhere burning
:50:01. > :50:03.6-figure salaries. There is no question the Labour Party increased
:50:04. > :50:08.our spending on public services but we finished up actually without
:50:09. > :50:13.better delivery and we finished up with a whole new layer and class of
:50:14. > :50:18.public servants who have done well. So you want a chainsaw through
:50:19. > :50:23.middle management. I think that's exactly what we need. Recently my
:50:24. > :50:31.mother was in hospital for one month in a London hospital, and I looked
:50:32. > :50:35.at the nurses and doctors working, and thought, actually they are being
:50:36. > :50:39.given way to much to do. You have said you are going to put a ring
:50:40. > :50:45.fence around the NHS, you are going to remove the ring fence around the
:50:46. > :50:55.NHS and therefore spend less. Not necessarily. Clearly we have got to
:50:56. > :50:58.re-prioritise what the NHS doors. Seeing the stuff seriously
:50:59. > :51:03.undermanned whilst at the same time vast sums of money being paid back
:51:04. > :51:07.on PFI deals and the growth in middle management. The Conservatives
:51:08. > :51:16.say that you are offering something for nothing, lower taxes, milk and
:51:17. > :51:22.honey, and it doesn't add up. The Conservatives' sums don't add up
:51:23. > :51:27.because they said the budget deficit would be back to even Stevens and we
:51:28. > :51:31.are still borrowing ?100 billion per year more than we are earning so I
:51:32. > :51:35.don't think criticism from them is particularly good but we have two
:51:36. > :51:40.outline where savings can be made. What about those people who might be
:51:41. > :51:44.watching and say, yes I agree with that, or I am gay or I have brown
:51:45. > :51:52.skin and I don't feel comfortable with these people? I have had too
:51:53. > :51:58.many whistles from UKIP candidates and I don't feel comfortable... We
:51:59. > :52:03.posed a big threat to three established parties and they clubbed
:52:04. > :52:10.together and did everything they could to throw mud at us and abuse
:52:11. > :52:16.us. You gave them a lot of mud to throw. I don't think we did. During
:52:17. > :52:21.that campaign there were 17 liberal, Labour and Conservative councillors
:52:22. > :52:27.arrested during the campaign and yet that didn't make the news. We had a
:52:28. > :52:31.rally in London and I invited the black and ethnic minority candidates
:52:32. > :52:38.standing for UKIP to come and join me on the stage, and there was the
:52:39. > :52:43.most incredible atmosphere and feeling of togetherness. What about
:52:44. > :52:47.gay people? And that here is a party that represents and believes in the
:52:48. > :52:52.Commonwealth. We have more black and ethnic minority voters now than the
:52:53. > :52:56.Conservative party and that message didn't get out. What about gay
:52:57. > :53:03.people? We have just had a gay person elected as one of our MEPs, I
:53:04. > :53:06.think that answers your question. This attempt to paint UKIP as a
:53:07. > :53:11.party that is deeply intolerant of the world does not bear the truth.
:53:12. > :53:16.You now have to go into Europe and your MEPs will have to behave
:53:17. > :53:21.differently then your MEPs from the last Parliament. I couldn't agree
:53:22. > :53:28.more. Will you be trying to change things, turning up for the votes...
:53:29. > :53:31.Of course we are going to be there, taking part in votes and we will
:53:32. > :53:36.have some members actively involved in committees but we are not going
:53:37. > :53:42.to deceive the British public that anything can be changed. I went to a
:53:43. > :53:46.meeting on Tuesday, Mr Schultz in the chair, one of the runners and
:53:47. > :53:51.riders to be commission president, and the leaders of the Christian
:53:52. > :53:54.Democrats, the leaders of all of the big political families in Europe
:53:55. > :53:59.represented in that room and it is clear to me that whatever results we
:54:00. > :54:04.saw, it is business as usual. Why are you not going into alliance with
:54:05. > :54:09.the French National front? I don't want to, they come from a different
:54:10. > :54:14.political family. Whilst Marine Le Pen has taken a different political
:54:15. > :54:21.position to her father, I think it still has him in it, and we want
:54:22. > :54:27.nothing to do with that party. What you are going to live with parties
:54:28. > :54:41.from Italy and elsewhere, you hope? Yes, I met one last week, a former
:54:42. > :54:49.comedian... Two of them! That photo of you, you must stop doing that.
:54:50. > :54:56.That's right, I should have no opinions... It is not going to
:54:57. > :54:59.happen. Your wife says she is worried about the smoking and the
:55:00. > :55:06.lack of sleep. What wife doesn't worry. But I am hoping we can do a
:55:07. > :55:11.deal and our group will sit in the middle of that parliament with a
:55:12. > :55:15.strong Eurosceptic agenda. We have always assumed you would stand in
:55:16. > :55:20.Kent but there has been a malicious suggestion you might stand in
:55:21. > :55:25.Sheffield against Nick Clegg, any chance of that? Anything is
:55:26. > :55:29.possible. No, I am going to stand in the south-east of England because
:55:30. > :55:34.that is where I am from. I think one of the things voters don't like
:55:35. > :55:41.about political parties is the way candidates are parachuted in. And
:55:42. > :55:46.its south? It is a possibility. Thank you. Now the news headlines.
:55:47. > :55:50.The former Liberal Democrat leader Lord Ashdown has told this programme
:55:51. > :55:55.there was a plot of deep malice against the Deputy Prime Minister,
:55:56. > :55:58.Nick Clegg, in the wake of the recent elections.
:55:59. > :56:02.He said his party would continue to campaign positively for the UK's
:56:03. > :56:07.membership of the EU and suggested it was unlikely the Lib Dems would
:56:08. > :56:10.support tougher measures against EU migration, being considered by the
:56:11. > :56:16.Home Secretary. The UKIP leader says that he expects
:56:17. > :56:24.his party to identify two to three dozen target seats at the next
:56:25. > :56:27.general election, where it believes it has a strong chance of getting
:56:28. > :56:30.its candidates elected to Westminster. He said that UKIP would
:56:31. > :56:32.lay out its full manifesto at its autumn conference in Doncaster, and
:56:33. > :56:35.indicated it would take people earning the minimum wage out of
:56:36. > :56:41.income tax and reduce the top rate of tax to 40p in the pound.
:56:42. > :56:45.An American soldier who has been a prisoner of the Taliban for nearly
:56:46. > :56:48.five years has been freed. Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl is the only US soldier
:56:49. > :56:52.to have been held captive in Afghanistan, and was released in
:56:53. > :56:58.exchange for five insurgents being held at Guantanamo Bay. He will now
:56:59. > :57:00.be taken to a military hospital in Germany.
:57:01. > :57:06.The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.
:57:07. > :57:13.Back to Andrew. Nigel Farage, Anna Soubry and Trevor Phillips are all
:57:14. > :57:17.here on the notorious sofa. Rainbow alliance. Trevor, are you worried
:57:18. > :57:24.about the things you could have been saying? I was worried about one
:57:25. > :57:28.thing that Nigel said this morning, that you have more minority voters
:57:29. > :57:32.than the Conservatives, that is fantasy. They were the opinion polls
:57:33. > :57:38.the other day for the European elections.
:57:39. > :57:47.I will do some number crunching and send it to you. I am worried about
:57:48. > :57:52.what some of the conversation that UKIP has provoked. I am not going to
:57:53. > :57:56.say they are racist, you have probably got racists in the party
:57:57. > :57:59.but so has every party, but I think some problems are rising, the use of
:58:00. > :58:04.the epithet racist to cover behaviour that goes from being
:58:05. > :58:08.disobliging about Mexicans through to some of the things that political
:58:09. > :58:13.parties say about immigration is, right across to Street murders, I
:58:14. > :58:17.think it is depriving the word of its moral force and I do worry about
:58:18. > :58:23.the debate being conducted in that way. We came to a point in the last
:58:24. > :58:28.fortnight of that campaign where we made the argument that it is
:58:29. > :58:32.irresponsible to have a total open door for 485 million people to live
:58:33. > :58:38.in Britain and we should have controlled immigration, and that in
:58:39. > :58:43.itself became deemed to be racist. I think the danger is that it stirs up
:58:44. > :58:48.feelings which I certainly find deeply offensive and very troubling,
:58:49. > :58:53.and I see it on the doorstep in my own constituency and when I go into
:58:54. > :58:58.others as well. People say things that I don't think represents this
:58:59. > :59:01.country. The counterargument is, should we have an open door... I'm
:59:02. > :59:05.sorry, we have run out of time. All sorts to entertain and inform,
:59:06. > :59:10.including the head of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, and
:59:11. > :59:12.the great Scottish singer songwriter Eddi Reader will be playing
:59:13. > :59:15.for us right here in the studio. as Britain's museums open up...
:59:16. > :59:40.at night. Join us as we celebrate our
:59:41. > :59:45.ever-changing museums and galleries