:00:00. > :00:07.So we're on the very edge of war in Syria.
:00:08. > :00:11.With a vote expected this week, the Commons is on a knife edge.
:00:12. > :00:14.This morning, the two men at the centre
:00:15. > :00:44.In's guests include the Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn, will he give
:00:45. > :00:49.Labour MPs a free vote. And seeking to win support on all
:00:50. > :00:52.sides, and from the public... The Defence Secretary,
:00:53. > :00:54.Michael Fallon. But when it comes to
:00:55. > :00:56.the Parliamentary arithmetic there's is the Scottish National Party
:00:57. > :01:03.still in listening mode? Its deputy leader, Stewart Hosie,
:01:04. > :01:05.joins me. There's acres of coverage of Syria
:01:06. > :01:08.in the Sunday papers, Here to review them,
:01:09. > :01:11.the deputy editor of the And Sarah Baxter,
:01:12. > :01:17.deputy editor of the Sunday Times. And in case after all the talk
:01:18. > :01:20.of war, you need something a little nostalgic and uplifting,
:01:21. > :01:24.the familiar faces of Jools Holland and Ruby Turner are here to play us
:01:25. > :01:36.out at the end of the show. But first the news with
:01:37. > :01:39.Rachel Burden. Government ministers are stepping up
:01:40. > :01:44.their efforts to persuade Labour MPs to support airstrikes against
:01:45. > :01:48.so-called Islamic state in Syria. They say IS needs to be
:01:49. > :01:50.put under more pressure. But the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn
:01:51. > :01:53.says he's Our political correspondent
:01:54. > :02:08.Carole Walker reports. RAF tornadoes and drones have
:02:09. > :02:12.carried out more than 1600 missions against Islamic State targets in
:02:13. > :02:16.Iraq. The government wants to extend those air strikes into Syria to
:02:17. > :02:21.attack the headquarters of militants. The government source
:02:22. > :02:29.said a vote looks increasingly likely. Michael Fallon has been
:02:30. > :02:33.briefing Labour MPs on the government strategy this weekend. I
:02:34. > :02:38.understand he is encouraged by his conversation, with many Labour MPs
:02:39. > :02:42.saying they will vote on the merits of the argument whatever the party
:02:43. > :02:48.line. Yesterday, demonstrators were on the streets of London and other
:02:49. > :02:53.cities to protest military action in Syria. Jeremy Corbyn, vice president
:02:54. > :02:57.of this organisation, shares their opposition but did not attend. The
:02:58. > :03:03.Defence Secretary admitted that if the Labour MP tries to compel them
:03:04. > :03:06.to vote against the government it would be more difficult to persuade
:03:07. > :03:11.the doubters. The Labour Leader has faced a backlash from some of his
:03:12. > :03:13.MPs over the handling of the issue and faces critical meetings with his
:03:14. > :03:16.Shadow Cabinet tomorrow. Hundreds of thousands of people are
:03:17. > :03:19.expected to take to the streets across the world today demanding
:03:20. > :03:21.a deal to combat global warming The objective of the conference is
:03:22. > :03:27.to achieve, for the first time in over 20 years of negotiations,
:03:28. > :03:30.a binding and universal agreement on climate change,
:03:31. > :03:39.from all the nations of the world. Commonwealth leaders, meeting in
:03:40. > :03:41.Malta, have issued a joint statement calling for an "ambitious outcome"
:03:42. > :03:44.from the climate talks in Paris. The organisation said it was
:03:45. > :03:46."deeply concerned" about what it called the "disproportionate threat"
:03:47. > :03:54.to its most vulnerable members - The row over alleged bullying and
:03:55. > :03:58.blackmail within the Conservative Party shows little sign of abating,
:03:59. > :04:01.despite the resignation of the He quit yesterday over claims
:04:02. > :04:05.that he failed to deal with allegations that young party
:04:06. > :04:09.activists were being bullied. It follows the apparent suicide
:04:10. > :04:12.of a 21-year-old party member I'll be back with the headlines
:04:13. > :04:30.just before ten o'clock. Thank you. The front pages of the
:04:31. > :04:38.newspapers... There is the Observer on the big story, Cameron to risk
:04:39. > :04:41.the Commons vote. The Labour split story and the Commons vote are
:04:42. > :04:52.intertwined as stories and they've got a very interesting interview
:04:53. > :04:56.with people from Raqqa. In the Sunday Times, Cameron to order the
:04:57. > :05:04.killing of Islamic State leaders. The other stories, the so-called
:05:05. > :05:24.Tatler Tory story. A very different tone from the very
:05:25. > :05:38.big Tory supporting papers. The mail on Sunday has a kind of justifiably
:05:39. > :05:46.gloating front page. The? -- the question is over one of the major
:05:47. > :05:50.Tory party donors. We're going to talk about Labour because there is
:05:51. > :05:52.an extraordinary situation where Labour members think that Jeremy
:05:53. > :06:01.Corbyn is doing an extraordinary job. Unfortunately, his
:06:02. > :06:05.parliamentary party do not share that opinion and the Shadow Cabinet,
:06:06. > :06:15.a large majority are in favour of bombing Syria. Jeremy Corbyn says he
:06:16. > :06:22.could not think of a conflict which has been improved by military
:06:23. > :06:34.intervention. The free vote would be absolutely extraordinary. Would make
:06:35. > :06:36.Cameron Holm and free. The arithmetic is therefore David
:06:37. > :06:41.Cameron. It is a question of what happens inside the Labour Party.
:06:42. > :06:47.Jeremy Corbyn has made so many enemies now. We've got quotes about
:06:48. > :06:55.people who are out to degrade and destroyed Jeremy Corbyn, never mind
:06:56. > :06:58.Isis. That is how intense it is inside the Labour Party at the
:06:59. > :07:05.moment. We have a rather interesting piece which touches on what Helen
:07:06. > :07:14.was talking about. The little-known Andrew Marr. The crucial question
:07:15. > :07:18.is, what is an MP for? IBM representative for the party and if
:07:19. > :07:22.they are democratic, should they be speaking up for the party, or are
:07:23. > :07:30.they a representative of all the people who voted for them? That is a
:07:31. > :07:35.long-standing issue. Absolutely on the horns of a dilemma in Labour.
:07:36. > :07:40.The astonishing thing is even if we have this vote early in the week and
:07:41. > :07:45.Labour finds a way through it, Thursday is another huge test for
:07:46. > :07:51.them. Oldham West was held by Michael Meacher with a majority of
:07:52. > :07:55.15,000. One of the safest seats they have got left. Obviously things
:07:56. > :07:59.would be different on a general election turnout. But you're not
:08:00. > :08:03.hearing from anybody on the ground that they will walk it. Yet I don't
:08:04. > :08:07.get the feeling Labour is going to lose it. Nobody thinks Ukip will
:08:08. > :08:15.take it. There is just a slightly uneasy move. Ukip was a broken party
:08:16. > :08:21.after the election in many respects and is being given the comeback of
:08:22. > :08:31.its life by the Labour Party. It fell into chaos. Anyway, it is...
:08:32. > :08:33.Let's stick with the Syria story. Robert Harris has an interesting
:08:34. > :08:42.story on the front of your newspaper. He opposed the Iraq war
:08:43. > :08:48.but he says if Labour cannot go to war against Isis, a particularly
:08:49. > :08:54.nasty group which hurls homosexuals of buildings and rapes young woman,
:08:55. > :08:59.and we are being asked to go to war by our socialist French ally, and we
:09:00. > :09:06.have a UN resolution, what kind of nation are we? This is a nexus into
:09:07. > :09:11.a crisis and it might split over this and the Rebels might form the
:09:12. > :09:19.nucleus of another Labour Party. A lot of people ask, what use is a bit
:09:20. > :09:23.of British bombing? There is an answer to that in the mirror.
:09:24. > :09:32.Government are keen to make their case. We have these missiles, when
:09:33. > :09:40.we have this conversation, the idea of collateral damage comes up. The
:09:41. > :09:47.idea is that our capability is to be more precise. I'm not convinced by
:09:48. > :09:51.this. The questions are, what can we do that nobody else can do and also,
:09:52. > :09:55.what do we want to happen in the end. We have parked the idea that
:09:56. > :10:03.many of the people who they are frightened of is basher al-Assad's
:10:04. > :10:09.government. We have also not said what we are going to have it looking
:10:10. > :10:15.like at the end. I support Robert Harris's view but I thought this
:10:16. > :10:22.piece in the Observer... The other piece was very strongly boot. People
:10:23. > :10:32.are trapped in Raqqa. A few thousand either bad guys -- are the bad guys.
:10:33. > :10:37.We know there will be civilian casualties. I thought it was smart
:10:38. > :10:46.to look at the people who are going to be on the sharp end of the
:10:47. > :10:49.missiles. There was a very interesting piece by a German
:10:50. > :10:54.journalist who spent time in Raqqa. He said the terrorists go
:10:55. > :10:59.underground in bunkers if there is any threat of the strike and they
:11:00. > :11:06.dispersed among the civilians. I feel to see how a missile is going
:11:07. > :11:13.to distinguish between a real terrorist and somebody living in the
:11:14. > :11:17.same house. That is why we move on to the discussion about ground
:11:18. > :11:20.troops. I think that is where the discussion will go this week. Do
:11:21. > :11:26.those people exist and will they be enough or are we looking to get
:11:27. > :11:32.Iranian troops, Russian troops, Nato troops. Before we leave the paper
:11:33. > :11:37.review we should not ignore this quite complicated Conservative
:11:38. > :11:42.story. This is a guy who is accused of bullying, blackmailing, driving
:11:43. > :11:45.somebody to suicide, he has been removed by the Conservative Party
:11:46. > :11:53.but Grant Shapps wrote a letter saying he took responsibility. Is
:11:54. > :12:05.this going to carry on running? It definitely is. The Tory chairman is
:12:06. > :12:09.embroiled, and the father of the young man who sadly killed himself
:12:10. > :12:15.is not letting this rest. He says he will take them all down. The new
:12:16. > :12:19.target is Lord Feldman. He is a great charm of David Cameron. I was
:12:20. > :12:23.going to ask about this story. It seems to me one of the things going
:12:24. > :12:28.on is not just the grief of the family but also a sense on aspects
:12:29. > :12:39.of the right of the Conservative Party that this is a way to get
:12:40. > :12:44.Cameron and his friends. They sense there is a group of friends running
:12:45. > :12:48.the party. I think so, and it is very dangerous when a story like
:12:49. > :12:53.this get infected with factions. The other thing to mention is one of the
:12:54. > :12:59.reasons the activist, who denies wrongdoing, was given such power is
:13:00. > :13:04.because he was young, he was 38 and conservative activists are of
:13:05. > :13:10.vintage ears. This was deemed to be quite exciting. A lot of complaints
:13:11. > :13:18.were ignored by Tory Central office and that is why this scandal is
:13:19. > :13:20.happening. The Federation of Conservative students was closed
:13:21. > :13:30.down by Norman Tebbit because of their politics about hanging Nelson
:13:31. > :13:34.Mandela. One final story, this is clearly a painting by Leonardo da
:13:35. > :13:48.Vinci except it is not, it is Sally from the Bolton Co-op. The Sunday
:13:49. > :13:53.Times's art critic as interviewed one of our most notorious art
:13:54. > :14:01.forgeries, who insists he painted it, but it is Sally from the Bolton
:14:02. > :14:11.Co-op. He has fooled many people with fake antiquities. He can make
:14:12. > :14:15.anything. This is currently in private ownership. Believe nothing
:14:16. > :14:22.you see or read. Good lesson. While Labour works out what to do,
:14:23. > :14:25.if and when a vote on airstrikes over Syria is called, the other big
:14:26. > :14:27.block on the opposition benches is united against military action.
:14:28. > :14:30.It is of course the SNP, with more than 50 members of
:14:31. > :14:31.Parliament, and the deputy leader, Stewart Hosie, joins me now.
:14:32. > :14:40.Good morning. Have you been having conversations
:14:41. > :14:45.with the government about this? There have been all sorts of
:14:46. > :14:49.conversations. The key thing is we have had no answers to the key
:14:50. > :14:55.issues we raised. Let's go through your big objections. We had said
:14:56. > :15:00.they need to be a UN resolution which specifically allowed for
:15:01. > :15:05.military intervention. Secondly, we needed to understand every element
:15:06. > :15:11.of the bombing. A few more bombs might not make any difference. Dudes
:15:12. > :15:15.will not mind if we go through these one by one. The UN resolution is
:15:16. > :15:25.pretty clear and is backed by a lot of countries all around the world.
:15:26. > :15:30.The specific resolution covers legality and shows the determination
:15:31. > :15:36.of the international community to act as one. In the absence of that,
:15:37. > :15:40.any agreement one might have could simply splinter and fall apart. I
:15:41. > :15:45.would have thought that if the United States and Russia and France
:15:46. > :15:48.are involved, if most of the Nato countries are going, the chances of
:15:49. > :15:55.this being shot down legally is pretty slim. If the US, Russia and
:15:56. > :15:59.France are united, there's no reason whatsoever why the Prime Minister
:16:00. > :16:04.should not seek a proper UN resolution. Your second point is
:16:05. > :16:12.what can we do that nobody else can do. The efficacy of the bombing.
:16:13. > :16:18.Syria does not lack people dropping bombs on it. Any number of sides in
:16:19. > :16:24.this multifaceted Civil War. We are yet to be convinced that the UN or
:16:25. > :16:30.the UK rather flying a few more sorties over will make any
:16:31. > :16:35.significant difference. We will be hearing from the Defence Secretary
:16:36. > :16:42.later that these missiles can take out key people in Isis or whatever
:16:43. > :16:47.we call it, Daesh. We have heard this in conflict after conflict. A
:16:48. > :16:51.summer Bin Laden turned up in a military compound in Pakistan, no
:16:52. > :16:56.amount of smart weaponry was able to take him out and I'm sceptical about
:16:57. > :17:01.these laser targeted weapons that every country claims to have. Yet we
:17:02. > :17:05.heard earlier in the newspaper review, the leaders scurry into
:17:06. > :17:10.tunnels leaving the civilians to take it on the chin. What about what
:17:11. > :17:17.happens at the end of this, how much is this your concern? That is vital.
:17:18. > :17:23.Where is the plan for reconstruction and stabilisation? Because without
:17:24. > :17:25.that we end up in an Iraq situation with an even bigger vacuum to be
:17:26. > :17:37.filled with potentially even nastier people than IS. In Libya it is now
:17:38. > :17:41.anarchy. These are powerful arguments I will be put into Michael
:17:42. > :17:45.Fallon later in the show, however the big counterargument is that I
:17:46. > :17:49.still have a territory about the same size of Britain now that they
:17:50. > :17:54.control, and while they are there they can plot and plan attacks on
:17:55. > :18:03.this country and send people to attack this country, and so long as
:18:04. > :18:10.that is the case we are not safe. That will not keep the people of
:18:11. > :18:14.Dundee or Glasgow very secure. We want to see Daesh degraded and
:18:15. > :18:20.destroyed as much as anyone so the first thing we need to do is have a
:18:21. > :18:24.truce between the non-Isis factions in Syria, they are the ones that
:18:25. > :18:28.will take the fight to them on the ground. We need more forces for
:18:29. > :18:34.peshmerga so they can take the fight to them on the ground. They are
:18:35. > :18:40.selling oil, where is it going to? They are playing in huge amounts of
:18:41. > :18:46.ammunition, who is supplying it? To be fair to them, the Americans and
:18:47. > :18:48.Russians now are bombing these convoys, and on the broader
:18:49. > :18:54.coalition this involves people who have been fighting to the death
:18:55. > :18:58.against Assad's regime for years now and taking huge losses, suddenly
:18:59. > :19:02.turning round and joining hands with the regime, and that seems
:19:03. > :19:09.impossible to a lot of people. There are a lot of truces in Syria. They
:19:10. > :19:13.have already agreed truces in many areas in order to fight Daesh and
:19:14. > :19:18.that's the right thing to do because the other part of this argument in
:19:19. > :19:28.terms of what will happen next, David Cameron talks about 70,000 SA
:19:29. > :19:34.fighters, they probably don't exist and if they do they are in the wrong
:19:35. > :19:37.place. In the absence of a non-Isis truce in Syria, goodness knows where
:19:38. > :19:42.the fight is on the ground will come from. Last week your leader Nicola
:19:43. > :19:48.Sturgeon said she was still in listening mode, but listening to you
:19:49. > :19:54.now it sounds like the SNP has made up its mind which way to vote. We
:19:55. > :19:57.have listened, we are still listening. Even on the day of the
:19:58. > :20:03.Autumn Statement I asked the Chancellor what has been set aside
:20:04. > :20:08.for reconstruction and stabilisation in Syria? The answer that came was
:20:09. > :20:14.none. Many people want to avoid the anarchy of Libya, then of course we
:20:15. > :20:20.couldn't vote for conflict in this climate. David Cameron said he has
:20:21. > :20:25.set aside ?1 billion, what could he say to you that could change your
:20:26. > :20:31.mind? He needs to answer the questions, he needs to say we will
:20:32. > :20:35.seek a specific UN mandate, we will have a proper plan for stabilisation
:20:36. > :20:47.and reconstruction, and he needs to demonstrate the efficacy of bombing
:20:48. > :20:48.Raqqa because right now we are not convinced. Thank you.
:20:49. > :20:50.Now to the weather, and it's been one
:20:51. > :20:53.of those weekends when pretty much everything has been flung at us.
:20:54. > :20:56.Over to Helen Willetts in the weather studio.
:20:57. > :21:05.Stormy weather on the cards today because we have already got wind
:21:06. > :21:11.gusting up to 60 mph, so it is even windier than yesterday. Why? We have
:21:12. > :21:24.our third named storm of the season bearing down on us, that's Clodagh.
:21:25. > :21:32.As well as that we have snow falling in Scotland. We will see significant
:21:33. > :21:37.snow here even at low levels. That will be blowing around. Elsewhere it
:21:38. > :21:41.is rain but it is heavy rain with hail and thunder in there and the
:21:42. > :21:51.winds are strengthening all the time. We are talking about land
:21:52. > :21:55.gales, gusts of wind up to 60 mph. One consolation, it is milder in the
:21:56. > :22:02.cell, not that it will feel that way. Still cold in the north with
:22:03. > :22:07.more snow showers to come. It will be icy in the north with warnings
:22:08. > :22:12.out for eyes, and we could have a spell of snow tomorrow morning for
:22:13. > :22:17.the rush-hour in Northern Ireland, southern Scotland, but at the moment
:22:18. > :22:22.the warnings are out for the gales. Do be aware if you are travelling,
:22:23. > :22:30.the risk of snow in the north and severe gales elsewhere.
:22:31. > :22:33.The best advice is to staple the duvet to your shoulders I think!
:22:34. > :22:36.Now we read in today's papers that if Jeremy Corbyn whips the
:22:37. > :22:38.Labour Party against bombing, the Government might simply give up
:22:39. > :22:42.But if he does, he may provoke a Labour split that
:22:43. > :22:45.This isn't just about party management, this is a
:22:46. > :22:48.matter of life and death, peace and war, and awesome responsibility.
:22:49. > :22:55.Good morning. Firstly, what do you say to those Labour colleagues in
:22:56. > :23:00.the Shadow Cabinet who are convinced now the case has been made for more?
:23:01. > :23:08.I simply look very carefully at the whole issue, look what will happen
:23:09. > :23:15.if we bomb Raqqa, look at the message from people who live there
:23:16. > :23:18.who will -- who say there will be large numbers of civilian
:23:19. > :23:22.casualties, and think through the whole thing. There is no ground
:23:23. > :23:27.force to back it up, the Government has already ruled that out, and we
:23:28. > :23:32.will be relying on groups in the Free Syrian Army, apparently who are
:23:33. > :23:36.hundreds of miles away, whose main interest is inviting Assad. Two
:23:37. > :23:41.years ago, the Government that is now asking us to link up with lots
:23:42. > :23:55.of forces in Syria to oppose Isil asked us to joined the coalition to
:23:56. > :24:01.fight Assad, we seem to be changing sides. The political process is
:24:02. > :24:07.encouraging but slow, but the other one is cutting off arms, oil sales
:24:08. > :24:10.and money to Isil. That is an area no government has done enough on.
:24:11. > :24:16.Where are they getting money from? They are say -- selling oil. When
:24:17. > :24:22.you have these conversations with Hilary Benn and so forth, do they
:24:23. > :24:25.simply not understand this? We have many discussions and we will have
:24:26. > :24:31.more, that's what politics is about, but you have got to ask yourself the
:24:32. > :24:36.question, as appalling as events in Paris were, there has got to be a
:24:37. > :24:42.security response there and elsewhere but also there has got to
:24:43. > :24:47.be a recognition that if we bomb in Raqqa we will take out civilian
:24:48. > :24:52.lives, not do much damage to Isil and we may make the situation worse.
:24:53. > :24:57.The situation in Libya where there was no follow-up plan shows these
:24:58. > :25:00.things can be dangerous. It sounds like you are against bomb and under
:25:01. > :25:07.all circumstances, are you a pacifist? No, but I would describe
:25:08. > :25:11.an act of violence and war as a last resort. You basically don't bring
:25:12. > :25:16.about peace by bombing, you bring about peace by all of the other
:25:17. > :25:21.processes, particularly the political process. Iran was not
:25:22. > :25:25.brought on early enough because Iran was at Geneva one, not at Geneva two
:25:26. > :25:30.but is in Vienna which is a good thing. I read the Labour Party
:25:31. > :25:34.resolution which in party terms is the kind of foundation for
:25:35. > :25:39.everything that follows, and in that the call for a UN resolution, which
:25:40. > :25:42.has happened, there is a call for a better plan for refugees, which is
:25:43. > :25:48.being put together now, and various other calls for things, many of
:25:49. > :25:55.which the Prime Minister would say he has delivered. You set a high bar
:25:56. > :25:58.Mr Corbyn, I have got over that, but you are against this under all
:25:59. > :26:03.circumstances no matter what the Prime Minister says. If he picked up
:26:04. > :26:06.the phone now and said, I have got a new thing to say to you, is there
:26:07. > :26:13.anything that could change your mind? I would obviously listen to
:26:14. > :26:19.what he had to say. The resolution talks about the UN resolution to be
:26:20. > :26:26.carried. This is not a UN inspired attack. This is an attack on Isil
:26:27. > :26:31.groupings in Raqqa which is a coalition between Britain, France
:26:32. > :26:35.and the USA. Other countries such as Australia and Canada have already
:26:36. > :26:41.withdrawn from this. This is not a chapter seven resolution. The Shadow
:26:42. > :26:45.Cabinet members who disagree with you have gone through that
:26:46. > :26:50.resolution, and said by and large we think it has been met, the hurdles
:26:51. > :26:54.have been covered, but the trouble with Jeremy Corbyn is that in his
:26:55. > :26:58.heart he is on the streets with the stop the War coalition and nothing
:26:59. > :27:03.can be said to change his mind. There is nothing wrong with my heart
:27:04. > :27:07.other than wanting a peaceful world. Let's go back to the issue of how we
:27:08. > :27:12.deal with the problems of the region. Surely it is much better to
:27:13. > :27:17.pursue the political option which will eventually bring about the
:27:18. > :27:20.ceasefire, hopefully quickly, in the Syrian civil war. Hundreds of
:27:21. > :27:27.thousands of people have already died in the Syrian civil war, it is
:27:28. > :27:32.a crisis of unimaginable proportions and it is affecting Europe more and
:27:33. > :27:38.more. Surely it is the political process that the key thing. This is
:27:39. > :27:45.in effect a distraction from the political process. Your clear --
:27:46. > :27:51.view could hardly be clearer on this, and you have written to Labour
:27:52. > :27:55.Party members and encourage them to write to your MPs. Some of your
:27:56. > :28:01.Shadow Cabinet people are upset you didn't tell them you are going do
:28:02. > :28:06.that. I was elected with a large mandate and many supporters have
:28:07. > :28:10.become party members. I was asked quite specifically by a number of
:28:11. > :28:14.people what is my view. Straight after the Shadow Cabinet meeting on
:28:15. > :28:18.Thursday, many colleagues who have a different view to me and want to
:28:19. > :28:22.support the Government on bombing, and already fully informed the media
:28:23. > :28:27.of what their position was, it would be a bit strange if my position was
:28:28. > :28:32.kept a secret thereafter so what I have done is try to democratise the
:28:33. > :28:36.way the party does things. Yes, I have sent an e-mail to party
:28:37. > :28:41.members, and 70,000 have already replied with their views. I don't
:28:42. > :28:46.know what all the views are obviously, I haven't read them all
:28:47. > :28:50.but we will be analysing bows. In a democracy the Labour Party has a
:28:51. > :28:54.large membership, they have a right to express their point of view, and
:28:55. > :28:58.MPs have got to listen to it, have got to try to understand what is
:28:59. > :29:06.going on in the minds of ordinary party members. How are you going to
:29:07. > :29:10.resolve this? To simplify it rather. You've got the leader and a large
:29:11. > :29:15.party membership think one thing, and in between them a lot of MPs who
:29:16. > :29:20.think something entirely different. How do you resolve this? A lot of
:29:21. > :29:28.MPs are yet to make up their minds, they are thinking the thing through
:29:29. > :29:36.carefully, reading some papers. Then they are looking at a more balanced
:29:37. > :29:39.approach, but also listening to people on the street. Many people
:29:40. > :29:43.tell me they are frightened of what will happen if the bombing goes
:29:44. > :29:51.ahead, they are frightened of the growth of intolerance within our
:29:52. > :29:55.society, whatever it is, but there has to be a political process. When
:29:56. > :30:01.you say people are frightened about what will happen if the bombing goes
:30:02. > :30:05.ahead, are you saying if we bomb in Raqqa we will make the streets of
:30:06. > :30:10.London less safe? Obviously I don't want the streets to be less safe, I
:30:11. > :30:15.support the increase in security operations in Britain to protect
:30:16. > :30:21.people, but the danger... I'm not really asking about that. The danger
:30:22. > :30:28.is a small number of people become radicalised as a result of this. We
:30:29. > :30:39.have got to reach out to communities and make sure people of all faiths
:30:40. > :30:43.feel included. If Britain votes to bomb and it takes place you think
:30:44. > :30:48.more people will be radicalised and will attack us. I would hope not,
:30:49. > :30:51.and I would persuade them not to be, but unfortunately the whole
:30:52. > :30:59.record since at Ganis than in 2001, Iraq 2003, Libya some years later,
:31:00. > :31:04.has been a growth of radicalisation across the whole piece. That is
:31:05. > :31:10.something we've all got to reckon with. We've got to reach out to
:31:11. > :31:13.communities, be inclusive of them. This will remind some people of what
:31:14. > :31:17.Ken Livingstone said, that they gave their lives as a result of what we
:31:18. > :31:24.were doing. That caused a lot of offence. Do you agree with him? I've
:31:25. > :31:28.prefer to remember the brilliant words Ken Livingstone used after
:31:29. > :31:32.July the 7th 2005 when he united Londoners saying Christians, Jews,
:31:33. > :31:38.Muslims, we will be united and not allow the bombers to divide us. When
:31:39. > :31:44.we first spoke, it was about some of these issues. You said matters of
:31:45. > :31:48.peace and war should be left to individual consciences. Are you
:31:49. > :31:53.going to whip Labour MPs? No decision has been made on that yet.
:31:54. > :31:57.Obviously there are strong views in both directions. We will have a
:31:58. > :32:04.further discussion about this. You cannot really whip them, can you? My
:32:05. > :32:07.view about the membership of the Labour Party as they must have a
:32:08. > :32:16.voice. MPs must listen to that voice and understand where they are coming
:32:17. > :32:23.from. They are elected as MPs and presumably need to use... Of course.
:32:24. > :32:31.We would make that decision later on. I still ask you. I thought you
:32:32. > :32:37.would. You cannot really whip Labour MPs to vote against the government
:32:38. > :32:41.if they believe something else. Listen, I understand dissent, I
:32:42. > :32:44.understand this agreement from leadership. I speak to people who
:32:45. > :32:50.don't agree with me and people who agree with me. I was a backbencher
:32:51. > :32:55.myself and I speak to people who I have had disagreements with. It does
:32:56. > :33:00.not need to be abusive or personal. I am respectful of differences of
:33:01. > :33:07.opinion within the party. To clear up the legal basis, the traditional
:33:08. > :33:12.bases, Diane Abbott says this decision is for you alone. There has
:33:13. > :33:16.been a suggestion this could be decided by the Shadow Cabinet. The
:33:17. > :33:24.leader decides. You will make up your mind when? In due course. Do
:33:25. > :33:29.you want to be the first to know? I was hoping! Let's move on to the
:33:30. > :33:34.fundamental criticism made of your leadership overall which is in the
:33:35. > :33:38.end people just don't think the streets of Britain would be safe
:33:39. > :33:44.under Jeremy Corbyn. I want our streets to be as safe as they
:33:45. > :33:49.possibly can. I am an MP for an inner-city multicultural community
:33:50. > :33:52.and I work closely with the police and faith communities and non-faith
:33:53. > :33:56.communities to make sure the streets are safe. The safest way to live in
:33:57. > :34:02.Britain is to have policing by consent, respect for communities,
:34:03. > :34:14.inclusion. Do we need a strong security presence to prevent people
:34:15. > :34:20.doing terrible things? Yes. That is why I supported the government. The
:34:21. > :34:23.government has retreated because of pressure on the cuts they were going
:34:24. > :34:29.to make. Labour has had a big influence. They have retreated on
:34:30. > :34:38.tax credit and the Saudi prison contract. I was encouraging you to
:34:39. > :34:43.say you would not whip them but let me encourage you to say you would.
:34:44. > :34:49.There is evidence the government would prove a vote and you would
:34:50. > :34:52.win. Help the government understands there is a serious debate and it
:34:53. > :34:58.should be a debate about the kind of foreign policy we've got, what we do
:34:59. > :35:03.in a difficult area of the world, what our influence could be.
:35:04. > :35:08.Instead, increasingly, Conservative ministers seem to be presenting this
:35:09. > :35:15.in very narrow party political terms of seeking advantage. That is not a
:35:16. > :35:18.responsible way of behaving. You've seen the military intelligence
:35:19. > :35:21.briefings. There is a widespread view that as long as there are safe
:35:22. > :35:32.havens for Isis in Syria we are not safe. They have a place they can
:35:33. > :35:37.plan attacks from. They could attack this afternoon or tomorrow. We will
:35:38. > :35:43.not be safe until those safe havens are eradicated. However reasonable
:35:44. > :35:48.what you have said science, you are against eradicating those safe
:35:49. > :35:52.havens. Those attacks could be planned absolutely anywhere. There
:35:53. > :35:55.is a strong view among lots of military people that bombing without
:35:56. > :36:01.any continuation of what we are going to do is a very risky thing to
:36:02. > :36:04.do. The idea that we're going into a bombing operation supported by
:36:05. > :36:11.ground forces hundreds of miles away, some of whom are jihadists,
:36:12. > :36:16.there are not any reliable allies there. Look at what happened to the
:36:17. > :36:22.Turkish shooting down of Russian planes. Is this a very sensible
:36:23. > :36:27.process? Should we not be cautious? The Prime Minister said there were
:36:28. > :36:34.70,000 potential Allied troops. Do you think that number is fictitious?
:36:35. > :36:40.I seriously question the number, the motives, the loyalty of those
:36:41. > :36:45.forces. They are either focused on fighting President Assad, each
:36:46. > :36:51.other, or having a civil war between themselves, as some jihadists groups
:36:52. > :36:55.do. This is not a standing army one can rely on. The process must be a
:36:56. > :37:05.political one to end this ghastly conflict. Two years ago, the same
:37:06. > :37:19.Prime Minister wanted us to go to war against President Assad, he now
:37:20. > :37:22.recognises the latest process. It has been a terrible few weeks for
:37:23. > :37:27.the Labour Party. Did you ever think it was going to be like this? It has
:37:28. > :37:34.not been terrible at all. Party membership has gone up, we forced a
:37:35. > :37:42.freeze on tax credits, police cuts, Saudi prison contract is that would
:37:43. > :37:48.have involved British prisoners... What about your comments are not
:37:49. > :37:55.shooting terrorists? My regret is the way that was spun by the media.
:37:56. > :38:02.Can I explain? The issue was, I take the view of liberty that shooting to
:38:03. > :38:12.kill on the streets of Britain should be illegal and dangerous is
:38:13. > :38:19.purely based on suspicion. A direct response if somebody is going to set
:38:20. > :38:22.off a bomb is a reasonable response. We can never trust what is being
:38:23. > :38:27.said in the papers but there are stories about potential coups
:38:28. > :38:33.against you. Some of your colleagues getting legal advice about stopping
:38:34. > :38:37.you standing in subsequent leadership campaign. Do you feel
:38:38. > :38:41.there are moves against you? I feel there are some people who have not
:38:42. > :38:44.got used to the idea that the party is in a different place. It is much
:38:45. > :38:52.bigger than it has been in my lifetime. I took part in 100 days of
:38:53. > :39:00.an election campaign, a very long campaign. I spoke at 31 different
:39:01. > :39:05.hustings, open to party members, I addressed 6070 other meetings. The
:39:06. > :39:13.result was a very clear mandate for me. You're not going anywhere? I am
:39:14. > :39:20.not going anywhere. I am enjoying every minute. Is all them a fair way
:39:21. > :39:25.to test your leadership? We've got a great candidate and a great campaign
:39:26. > :39:32.in Oldham. I was there for the start of the campaign. I'm very
:39:33. > :39:34.confident. Am I looking at the next Prime Minister of Britain? I hope
:39:35. > :39:37.you are. Thank you very much indeed. We've heard the case
:39:38. > :39:40.for voting against the war this week but those in favour have at least
:39:41. > :39:43.as many hard questions to answer. Before the Iraq war,
:39:44. > :39:45.there was nothing like enough discussion about what was going to
:39:46. > :39:48.happen after the fighting or Let's hope that this time we
:39:49. > :39:51.don't make that mistake again. I'm joined by the Defence Secretary,
:39:52. > :40:03.Michael Fallon. He has been making the case,
:40:04. > :40:08.including two Labour MPs. Can I ask, have you been talking to Labour MPs
:40:09. > :40:16.directly? Yes, all week, we have been giving them briefing and trying
:40:17. > :40:19.to answer the questions they have been asking, about what more can be
:40:20. > :40:24.done to stop the supply of oil or arms, we have been briefing them in
:40:25. > :40:30.the mystery of the fence and I've been talking to them in Parliament.
:40:31. > :40:35.-- Ministry of Defence. In your waters, do you think we will see a
:40:36. > :40:39.vote this week? We would like to but we need to keep building the case.
:40:40. > :40:44.The Prime Minister advanced the case. He answered questions for
:40:45. > :40:51.three hours. You could see opinion beginning to shift. Do you think you
:40:52. > :40:58.have the votes? Not yet come we are working at it. We need to keep doing
:40:59. > :41:06.that. There are legitimate questions to answer and we are doing our best.
:41:07. > :41:10.If you called your vote and Jeremy Corbyn won it, what effect would
:41:11. > :41:14.that have? It would be hugely damaging to Britain's reputation
:41:15. > :41:22.across the world. Our allies want us to help. France has asked us
:41:23. > :41:28.directly to send the RAF. It would obviously damage our reputation
:41:29. > :41:34.internationally and would leave us less safe. He has not decided
:41:35. > :41:42.whether to whip Labour MPs against the strikes. Maybe he has decided
:41:43. > :41:45.but does not want to tell us. This is not just a matter for
:41:46. > :41:48.but does not want to tell us. This Party or the Conservative Party, it
:41:49. > :41:55.is a matter on which individual MPs need to make up their minds. We are
:41:56. > :42:00.doing our best to answer questions and explain that France wants us to
:42:01. > :42:05.help. There are strong military reasons for using our aircraft. We
:42:06. > :42:09.are making these arguments and I hope MPs will look at them
:42:10. > :42:13.individually. I don't want to get too hung up on the process, because
:42:14. > :42:20.it is the fundamental question, you will have seen the Observer, people
:42:21. > :42:23.in Raqqa saying, for goodness sake, do not bomb us. There are hundred
:42:24. > :42:31.thousand people and a few thousand will be bad guys. They go
:42:32. > :42:36.underground into bunkers or disperse among the civilian population to
:42:37. > :42:40.schools and houses. They use the civilians as human shields. If we
:42:41. > :42:45.vote to bomb Raqqa we will kill large numbers of innocent people.
:42:46. > :42:51.Absolutely not, we set very strict rules of engagement to minimise
:42:52. > :42:55.civilian casualties. This is why the French and the coalition would like
:42:56. > :43:02.the RAF involved, because we have the precision strikers that can take
:43:03. > :43:08.out specific fighters at command posts, training camps, people
:43:09. > :43:13.plotting against. They can be taken out precisely. Can they really?
:43:14. > :43:16.Those brimstone missiles cannot go into underground bunkers and
:43:17. > :43:22.distinguish between a supporter and somebody wearing a headscarf selling
:43:23. > :43:25.shoes. We build up intelligence on the targets, they are individually
:43:26. > :43:32.selected, they are approved, I approve them. The commanders last
:43:33. > :43:40.week had 25 aircraft available with precision strike capability. Eight
:43:41. > :43:44.of those were British. Of the unmanned aircraft flying, about a
:43:45. > :43:50.quarter are British. We have a very large proportion of high precision
:43:51. > :43:54.strike capabilities and that is why the French asked us to help and the
:43:55. > :44:01.coalition would welcome the RAF participating. These bombs can find
:44:02. > :44:06.their way into bunkers, can they? The RAF at been striking in Iraq for
:44:07. > :44:10.over a year and our estimate is there has not been a single civilian
:44:11. > :44:17.casualty because of the precision. The strikes have been carefully
:44:18. > :44:23.targeted at command posts. With the greatest of respect that reminds me
:44:24. > :44:28.of Robin Cook's notorious comment about going into Afghanistan with
:44:29. > :44:32.not a shot being fired. We've had war in Iraq, a catastrophe that
:44:33. > :44:36.killed huge sums of people. We've had the war in Libya which destroyed
:44:37. > :44:41.that country and opened up migrant routes. Now you are saying, let's
:44:42. > :44:45.try a third time. We've already got the mission to deal with them in
:44:46. > :44:51.Iraq at the edges, helping the government push back. It makes no
:44:52. > :44:55.sense to simply deal with them in Iraq when they have a headquarters
:44:56. > :45:02.in north-east Syria. They are not just a threat to this region, it is
:45:03. > :45:09.a threat to this country. Let me put it this way, last year there were 15
:45:10. > :45:15.attacks worldwide, this year there have been 150. We've seen them not
:45:16. > :45:19.just in Ankara and Beirut but in Paris. There is a very direct threat
:45:20. > :45:39.to this country. There's a feeling supermarkets might
:45:40. > :45:43.be targeted, is there evidence that? The current independent threat
:45:44. > :45:48.assessment is that an attack on Britain is now highly likely. We
:45:49. > :45:52.have got to do something about that. Of course Labour is right to say
:45:53. > :45:55.there should be a political process to end the civil war in Syria, of
:45:56. > :46:00.course they are right to say we should look at the coil and
:46:01. > :46:04.financing of Isil but we have also got to defend ourselves and deal
:46:05. > :46:11.with a direct threat to the country. Jeremy Corbyn say that if
:46:12. > :46:19.we start to bomb in Raqqa, we will make it much likelier Isil will come
:46:20. > :46:24.and attack us here. It is too late, Isil already regard Britain as one
:46:25. > :46:33.of their top targets. We are attacking Isil already in Iraq. We
:46:34. > :46:38.are part of this right. -- fight. France has passed a resolution
:46:39. > :46:42.calling on all members of the United Nations to call on their capacities
:46:43. > :46:47.to eradicate any safe haven for Isil. We also need to do this to
:46:48. > :46:52.keep our own country safe. The Prime Minister spoke about there being
:46:53. > :46:57.70,000 potential fighters in Syria at the moment. Jeremy Corbyn said he
:46:58. > :47:06.has deep scepticism about this figure. Do you know who these people
:47:07. > :47:10.are? Yes, we do, and this is an independent joint intelligence
:47:11. > :47:15.committee assessment, it is not ministers making this figure. There
:47:16. > :47:21.is the Free Syrian Army in the north, the southern front in the
:47:22. > :47:25.self... There aren't many of these people standing up to Isil, and the
:47:26. > :47:29.longer we wait there are fewer there will be. But the best estimate of
:47:30. > :47:33.those who are not extremists who are prepared to support a new government
:47:34. > :47:39.in Syria and are then prepared to take the fight to Isil is around
:47:40. > :47:46.70,000. They are not perfectly drilled and organised outside
:47:47. > :47:53.Raqqa... And they have been fighting in Syria. They are there and there
:47:54. > :47:57.will be fewer of them if we don't start getting involved properly in
:47:58. > :48:03.dealing with Isil in its headquarters. The biggest question
:48:04. > :48:06.of all is that in 2013 was a vote of the House of Commons which the
:48:07. > :48:11.Government lost but that was to attack Assad, who is now objectively
:48:12. > :48:19.our ally in all of this. So what happens if somehow we win, what
:48:20. > :48:26.happens if we do take ground or the Free Syrian Army takes ground from
:48:27. > :48:31.Raqqa and we all move in there, Assad attacks Bevan? That was a vote
:48:32. > :48:37.to stop Assad using chemical weapons against his own people, and look
:48:38. > :48:41.what's happened since. We have had 11 million people displaced, 4
:48:42. > :48:46.million people have left Syria. Assad is stronger than ever. He is
:48:47. > :48:50.only in control of a quarter of his country but we've had this huge
:48:51. > :48:53.Civil War and we need to bring it to an end. That doesn't mean we
:48:54. > :48:59.shouldn't be dealing with Isil first. Isil is a threat not just in
:49:00. > :49:05.Iraq and Syria but to western Europe as well. I set that Assad is in a
:49:06. > :49:13.powerful position, he has the Russians at his shoulder. If Isil
:49:14. > :49:19.are defeated, Assad will be stronger still, and if the Free Syrian Army
:49:20. > :49:22.go into Raqqa, presumably the Russians will attack them. Have
:49:23. > :49:30.there been conversations about what happens? Close neighbours like Iran
:49:31. > :49:34.and Saudi Arabia and Russia are now involved in a political process.
:49:35. > :49:38.That wasn't true last year or two years ago. They are working together
:49:39. > :49:44.on a new type of government for Syria that can be genuinely
:49:45. > :49:49.comprehensive, include all groups in Syria, Christian, Sunnis and Jews,
:49:50. > :49:54.and build a more comprehensive government in Syria that is
:49:55. > :49:58.moderate. Russia is part of that process. Philip Hammond is
:49:59. > :50:02.representing Great Britain as part of that negotiation and it is a sign
:50:03. > :50:06.of optimism but we cannot wait for that process to work its way through
:50:07. > :50:11.without dealing with the terrorist threat from Isil two our own
:50:12. > :50:15.country. That surely is the heart of this problem, on the one hand you
:50:16. > :50:19.want to act now, on the other hand it is dangerous to act until we have
:50:20. > :50:24.a comprehensive idea of what will happen next, then have to wait for
:50:25. > :50:28.the Russians to change their mind over Assad and there's no sign of
:50:29. > :50:33.that happening. Our argument is that it is pretty dangerous not to act,
:50:34. > :50:38.when you see a direct threat to this country, when you are asked for help
:50:39. > :50:41.from France, when you have the capability of a precision strike
:50:42. > :50:46.aircraft that can deal with this death cult in its headquarters. It
:50:47. > :50:51.is even more dangerous not to do something about it. What happened in
:50:52. > :50:56.Paris a couple of weeks ago could happen in a British city, innocent
:50:57. > :51:03.people slaughtered on a night out. Isil is not making demands, these
:51:04. > :51:07.are terrorists prepared to go in and slaughter people with automatic
:51:08. > :51:13.weapons and then blow themselves up. I understand that. My question is
:51:14. > :51:19.whether in doing something about this, we trigger a whole series of
:51:20. > :51:25.further wars and conflicts in that region and make things worse. There
:51:26. > :51:30.is a war going on in Syria at the moment, it has been going on for
:51:31. > :51:36.four years. We are helping the legitimate government of Iraq pushed
:51:37. > :51:40.Isil back, but the headquarters of Isil is there in north-east Syria
:51:41. > :51:43.and we have the capacity to help France and our allies do something
:51:44. > :51:48.about it so the bigger question is why would we not help? Have we
:51:49. > :51:54.actually had a conversation with the Russians about the endgame? Yes, the
:51:55. > :51:59.Russians are involved in these negotiations now. Over the last few
:52:00. > :52:04.months they are involved actively with Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey
:52:05. > :52:09.and the various moderate in Syria to give Syria a better government. As
:52:10. > :52:14.Defence Secretary, what assurance can you offer we won't have an RAF
:52:15. > :52:19.jets shot down by the Russians or the Turks following the incident
:52:20. > :52:28.last week? The Turks were defending their airspace. It is a very crowded
:52:29. > :52:31.airspace. There is an understanding between the coalition and Russians
:52:32. > :52:38.for aircraft operating in the area around Raqqa, we would be party to
:52:39. > :52:42.that and our planes are already equipped with defensive aids. There
:52:43. > :52:46.are always risks in war but there are greater risks from not doing
:52:47. > :52:51.something about Isil and leaving our street form a ball to the kind of
:52:52. > :52:54.slaughter we saw in Paris. One domestic issue which is causing a
:52:55. > :53:02.lot of concern for the Conservative Party at the moment is this
:53:03. > :53:16.scandal, Grant Shapps has resigned, there are calls for Lord Feldman to
:53:17. > :53:21.resign, what are -- is your message to Elliot Johnson's parents? I would
:53:22. > :53:27.ensure there is a full-scale investigation going on, and there
:53:28. > :53:31.will be the coroners inquest as well, but the person directly
:53:32. > :53:38.responsible for Central office, for campaigning, for the chairman, Grant
:53:39. > :53:42.Shapps, who signed up Mike Clark's operation, he has accepted
:53:43. > :53:48.responsibility and has resigned. Do you think Lord Feldman should go as
:53:49. > :53:52.well? I think it is best now to see where the investigation takes us.
:53:53. > :53:59.The family would like an independent inquiry because the lawyer involved
:54:00. > :54:05.wants to be an MP himself. He is fully independent, it is a top
:54:06. > :54:09.lawyer. You have been inside the Conservative Party for a long time,
:54:10. > :54:14.what goes wrong with the Conservative Party youth wing? It is
:54:15. > :54:17.trivial to say they get overenthusiastic when somebody has
:54:18. > :54:23.done something Assad asked to take their own lives, but let me assure
:54:24. > :54:29.you this will be fully investigated. -- as sad as to take
:54:30. > :54:33.their own lives. The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon
:54:34. > :54:38.has confirmed he has been personally briefing Labour MPs at meetings in
:54:39. > :54:41.the MOD to win their support for extending air strikes to Syria.
:54:42. > :54:45.Michael Fallon said the Government would like to hold a vote on the
:54:46. > :54:50.issue in House of Commons this week, but he said it had not yet secured a
:54:51. > :54:54.majority in favour. He added that losing the vote would be damaging to
:54:55. > :54:57.Britain's international reputation and would leave the country less
:54:58. > :55:01.safe. The Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has
:55:02. > :55:22.urged party colleagues who disagree with him about Syria to think
:55:23. > :55:25.carefully before agreeing to air strikes. He said he had not yet
:55:26. > :55:28.decided whether to allow Labour MPs a free vote on the issue, but Mr
:55:29. > :55:30.Corbyn made it clear he didn't believe extending UK military action
:55:31. > :55:33.would solve the problem of so-called Islamic State. There has got to be a
:55:34. > :55:35.recognition that if we bomb in Raqqa, we may make the situation
:55:36. > :55:37.worse, not better. Hundreds of thousands of people are
:55:38. > :55:42.expected to take to the street across the world today demanding a
:55:43. > :55:50.deal to combat global warming in Paris. The objective is to achieve a
:55:51. > :55:51.binding and universal agreement on climate change from all the nations
:55:52. > :55:54.of the world. The next news on BBC One is
:55:55. > :55:58.at 5:50pm. In an hour's time,
:55:59. > :56:03.Andrew Neil's guests on the Sunday Politics will include
:56:04. > :56:05.Liam Fox MP and George Galloway, Next week, the actor Toby Jones,
:56:06. > :56:09.star of that really compelling But we leave you now
:56:10. > :56:12.as promised with music from Their new album is called, simply,
:56:13. > :56:16.'Jools and Ruby' # The same old heart will be there
:56:17. > :56:56.for you # Is the same old blues on your
:56:57. > :56:59.mind? # Well my heart has an ear that's
:57:00. > :57:02.kind # The same old heart will be there
:57:03. > :57:28.for you # Is the same old blues on your
:57:29. > :57:58.mind? # Well my heart has an ear that's
:57:59. > :58:00.kind # Oh, the same old heart will be
:58:01. > :59:01.there for you #. Who knew you were such a romantic,
:59:02. > :59:03.Mr Valentine? Maybe I should go for a drink
:59:04. > :59:09.after this. Hm! You turned your back on your patient
:59:10. > :59:13.when he needed you the most.