:00:09. > :00:14.2015 has been David Cameron's year confounding his election critics,
:00:15. > :00:18.but as it lends the Prime Minister confronts his biggest gamble by far
:00:19. > :00:43.over Britain's future in the European club.
:00:44. > :00:50.I'm joined by the former Prime Minister, Sir John Major, and we'll
:00:51. > :00:54.hear from a Tory Euro-sceptic, Liam Fox, with a rather different message
:00:55. > :01:00.for his party this morning. And, fresh from a person triumph in the
:01:01. > :01:00.Commons, Labour's most senior frontbencher after the leader,
:01:01. > :01:13.Angela Eagle. Our paper reviewers today with a
:01:14. > :01:18.political trio, Ukip's Suzanne Evans, one of the SNP's new cohorts
:01:19. > :01:21.at Westminster John Nicolson and Joan Bakewell, journalist and
:01:22. > :01:24.broadcaster but also a Labour peer. And to really get us into the
:01:25. > :01:36.Christmas spirit... Back by popular demand, the harpist
:01:37. > :01:38.Catrin Finch is here, but first the news with Naga.
:01:39. > :01:43.The Prime Minister has ordered a review of police officers' use
:01:44. > :01:46.of guns, following the terrorist attacks in Paris last month.
:01:47. > :01:50.The BBC understands the Home Office and Ministry of Justice will assess
:01:51. > :01:53.whether the law goes far enough in supporting officers who may be
:01:54. > :01:56.forced to make a split-second decision to open fire.
:01:57. > :02:01.Our Political Correspondent Chris Mason reports.
:02:02. > :02:08.Just over a month on from the terrorist attacks in Paris, there is
:02:09. > :02:11.soul searching here, both within Government and police forces. How
:02:12. > :02:17.would they cope if it was to happen in the UK? Fewer than one in 20
:02:18. > :02:22.police officers in England and Wales are trained to carry guns. The
:02:23. > :02:25.Government wants this number to increase significantly, but there
:02:26. > :02:31.are concerns about more than just numbers. The country's most senior
:02:32. > :02:34.policeman, the Metropolitan Police commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe,
:02:35. > :02:37.has told the Prime Minister he's concerned armed officers don't have
:02:38. > :02:42.the clear, legal and political backing they need to work with
:02:43. > :02:47.confidence. So, David Cameron wants to check whether the existing law
:02:48. > :02:53.goes far enough in allowing officers to use reasonable force if necessary
:02:54. > :02:57.shooting to kill if they have an honest, instinctive belief that
:02:58. > :03:01.opening fire is appropriate. The review will be conducted by the Home
:03:02. > :03:05.Office and the Ministry of Justice and will examine whether the people
:03:06. > :03:10.who 're asked to protect us from possible terrorist attack have the
:03:11. > :03:11.freedom to make a split second decision which may mean taking a
:03:12. > :03:13.life. Motorists who use handheld mobile
:03:14. > :03:16.phones while driving in Britain could face tougher
:03:17. > :03:20.penalties if they reoffend. The Government's proposing
:03:21. > :03:23.to increase the fine from ?100 to ?150 and the number
:03:24. > :03:26.of points issued from 3 to 4. It's part of a new road safety plan
:03:27. > :03:30.being published next week. An Air France plane has made
:03:31. > :03:34.an emergency landing in Kenya after a suspicious package
:03:35. > :03:37.was found on board. Kenyan police say the plane,
:03:38. > :03:40.with more than 470 people on board, was on a flight from
:03:41. > :03:44.Mauritius to Paris. It landed in Mombasa
:03:45. > :04:01.after the package was discovered In case you weren't watching
:04:02. > :04:02.yesterday, I'm about to tell you who won Strictly Come Dancing.
:04:03. > :04:04.The former boy band star Jay McGuinness and his partner
:04:05. > :04:07.Aliona Vilani have won this year's Strictly Come Dancing.
:04:08. > :04:09.Despite coming bottom of the judges' score board,
:04:10. > :04:13.the band member of The Wanted won the phone vote and beat soap actors
:04:14. > :04:19.Georgia May Foote and Kellie Bright to take home the glitterball trophy.
:04:20. > :04:25.It's been one of the most special things I've ever done with the most
:04:26. > :04:30.special person. If anyone that helped us to get here and watched
:04:31. > :04:33.and enjoyed what we were doing, I'm really happy that you liked it
:04:34. > :04:36.because it was the best thing I've done. Congratulations to him.
:04:37. > :04:39.That's all from me, I'll be back with the headlines just before Ten.
:04:40. > :05:02.There's the Sunday Telegraph, women soldiers very shortly are going to
:05:03. > :05:05.go into combat for Britain, the Israelis and Russians have done it
:05:06. > :05:14.and we'll be doing it. There's Strictly again. Lots of interesting
:05:15. > :05:18.stories again here, the Sunday Times, and Strictly again. The most
:05:19. > :05:22.interesting political story is Liam Fox who's now going to come out we
:05:23. > :05:27.think to campaign for a British exit from the EU and that will, of
:05:28. > :05:31.course, lead to the question of how many Cabinet Ministers will follow
:05:32. > :05:34.and will they be allowed to do it and stay in the Cabinet. Lots to
:05:35. > :05:47.talk about there. And you have taken the Observer?
:05:48. > :05:51.Yes, Euro-sceptics. You are rubbing your hands with this? We are
:05:52. > :05:56.journalists, we are going to enjoy this and we want everyone to engage
:05:57. > :06:01.with the issues. I'm for staying in, but what is interesting is that the
:06:02. > :06:06.Euro-sceptics are out of the traps quickly and attacking and they are
:06:07. > :06:11.attacking Cameron's rather mild success in Brussels which I think is
:06:12. > :06:19.a very steady and dignified holding operation. They are saying the
:06:20. > :06:25.living wage will lead to a migrant boom. It's logical isn't it because
:06:26. > :06:28.as wages come up, more people will be encouraged to come in? But wait a
:06:29. > :06:34.minute, is the lodge thank you we abandon the living wage? For
:06:35. > :06:40.heavens' sake, it will prop up the lowest earning people in our
:06:41. > :06:43.society. We can't abandon that because the speculation is that
:06:44. > :06:47.immigrants will be drawn here by our benefits. That is an issue to be
:06:48. > :06:54.resolved but to claim that the living wage will lead to a boom and
:06:55. > :06:58.therefore to descale it is not... Yolk is suggesting that we are going
:06:59. > :07:00.to abandon it. The some point that someone from the former Eastern
:07:01. > :07:04.European communist countries in Europe can come here now and earn up
:07:05. > :07:09.to 400 times the wage that they might get at home. And my colleagues
:07:10. > :07:14.in the European Parliament, my Ukip colleagues, tell me that this is all
:07:15. > :07:18.part of the EU's push for more integration, so they are talking
:07:19. > :07:22.about wage harmonization and tax harmonization. How on earth can you
:07:23. > :07:25.run a huge superstate, if you like, with the current economic
:07:26. > :07:31.differences that they have? What they do is engage in conversation
:07:32. > :07:35.about it. Stay with the news if you don't mind because I thought it was
:07:36. > :07:39.interesting the Observer led with the Euro-sceptic story, perhaps more
:07:40. > :07:42.expected is Nick Farage you have chose none the Express, one of the
:07:43. > :07:46.other big European stories of the week? That's right. People are
:07:47. > :07:50.talking about Cameron's renegotiation in trying to keep the
:07:51. > :07:55.status quo, he's banging with table with agitation to keep that. You
:07:56. > :07:58.will not be voting for the status quo if you vote to stay in the
:07:59. > :08:03.European Union, you will be voting for goodness knows what. Before the
:08:04. > :08:06.European elections a couple of years ago, Nigel Farage debated Nick Clegg
:08:07. > :08:10.and Nick Clegg said he was scaremongering, dangerous fantasy
:08:11. > :08:15.about the creation of an EU Army but we have got the creation of a 2,500
:08:16. > :08:20.strong army to secure the Schengen area borders and this new proposele
:08:21. > :08:26.will give considerable power to the EU to take control of the nation.
:08:27. > :08:31.Keeps going, keeps going, keeps going... I must ask you, an
:08:32. > :08:35.interesting spat between Douglas Carswell and Nigel Farage this week,
:08:36. > :08:39.Nigel saying Douglas has to put up or stand up if he wants a new fresh
:08:40. > :08:44.face leading the party, he has to stand himself, what do you make of
:08:45. > :08:49.this? It's a shame it's detracted from the key aim which is to leave
:08:50. > :08:56.the European Union. Maybe they could both agree that you were the person
:08:57. > :09:03.to take it? No. Not a thorn between two roses but a thistle. John, you
:09:04. > :09:07.have chosen another John? Yes, John Rental has written a story
:09:08. > :09:10.predicting that the Prime Minister will be successful in his
:09:11. > :09:15.negotiations. We can all predict that the Prime Minister will come
:09:16. > :09:19.back from Brussels waving a bit of paper saying triumph in our times, I
:09:20. > :09:24.don't think he'll say, I've failed miserably. The question is what
:09:25. > :09:29.he'll actually get. John says that, he calls David Cameron the exam
:09:30. > :09:35.essay Prime Minister, basically the person who doesn't really focus very
:09:36. > :09:38.much until the last moment, but the last moment concentrates and works
:09:39. > :09:42.hard and delivers what his teacher wants. I don't know who the teacher
:09:43. > :09:48.is in this particular context. Very interesting. Charles Moore wrote an
:09:49. > :09:53.article in the Telegraph predicting two things; one that David Cameron
:09:54. > :09:57.would come back waving his piece of paper successfully as you said and
:09:58. > :10:01.also that it would not change fundamentally the EU or Britain's
:10:02. > :10:07.relationship with it? I think he's going to get almost nothing from the
:10:08. > :10:11.leaders. The things he said he wanted like reform policy and
:10:12. > :10:19.agricultural policy, he won't get it. He said he was going to focus on
:10:20. > :10:24.these. I'm very much in favour of staying in the European Union. Just
:10:25. > :10:27.the old journalist in me feels a bit suspicious of politicians who
:10:28. > :10:33.promise one thing then change the promise and try and massage it. It's
:10:34. > :10:38.called naughtion. It's an absolute climb-down isn't it. The problem is,
:10:39. > :10:40.he's marched the troops up the hill, there is no battle to be won here
:10:41. > :10:45.particularly but he's got to claim victory. We'll talk more about this
:10:46. > :10:51.with Liam Fox himself, there is an article in the Sunday Times. Always
:10:52. > :10:56.been anti-Europe. But he is going to campaign for us to leave openly, he
:10:57. > :11:01.says. Let's turn to another moment. A Labour Party moment Joan, your
:11:02. > :11:07.leader Jeremy Corbyn giving an interesting interview to the Sunday
:11:08. > :11:11.Times in which he's disBliging by those who clapped Hilary Benn after
:11:12. > :11:18.his pro-intervention speech? Quite a dull article, this. OK! I'll look
:11:19. > :11:22.forward to it then. He says the nice things you would expect. He's
:11:23. > :11:29.holding a ring with some dignity I think. He's got a massive support in
:11:30. > :11:35.the country and his Parliamentary MPs opposing him. He's holding
:11:36. > :11:42.dignified position and he's entitled to say when he's angry with them not
:11:43. > :11:45.agreeing. He is saying, they should recognise I was elected with a very
:11:46. > :11:49.large mandate from a very wide variety of people. There's no
:11:50. > :11:54.position of any mob, what there is is a developmental of Parliamentary
:11:55. > :11:57.participatory democracy. Well, I think we are seeing that in action
:11:58. > :12:00.and I think there is to be no submit. What is there going to be?
:12:01. > :12:05.Discussion. There's always discussion. Everyone's in favour of
:12:06. > :12:11.lots of discussion, Joan. I'm always in favour of discussion. I think you
:12:12. > :12:15.are absolutely right. It's enormously disrespectful the way the
:12:16. > :12:18.backbenchers treat him because he's won a stonking great majority of the
:12:19. > :12:30.popular vote and they just can't come to terms with the fact that
:12:31. > :12:41.he's won. But they are his MPs. He's not good in the chamber. They think
:12:42. > :12:45.he's oldie worldy? They do. I heard Jeremy Corbyn say, and of course
:12:46. > :12:49.we'd like to congratulate major Tim who is not on the planet at the
:12:50. > :12:54.moment. And, as he said it, I thought, you are walking into a
:12:55. > :12:58.trip. Hundreds of Tories start jeering saying, you are not on the
:12:59. > :13:02.planet either with some singing major Tom in the grown-up way our
:13:03. > :13:06.Parliamentary democracy works! Moving on to the real space cadet,
:13:07. > :13:11.it's major Tim and the good news for all of us is that major Tim, who has
:13:12. > :13:18.really excited people's interests in space travel I think, is going to
:13:19. > :13:21.get a stocking and turkey on Christmas Day, but the Express, adds
:13:22. > :13:25.for those who're not completely on the ball that, the turkey will be
:13:26. > :13:29.hanging up side down because we are in space and turkeys are up side
:13:30. > :13:34.down in space. The tree will be hanging up side down. I think that
:13:35. > :13:40.was last year's craze, having your tree up side down. But not in space.
:13:41. > :13:45.No. I always wanted to be an astronaut. What happened? I went to
:13:46. > :13:49.my first careers lecture in school and the teacher said, write down
:13:50. > :13:53.what you would like to do. There is probably a few people that would
:13:54. > :13:57.like to send me on a one-way trip to the moon. The teacher said write
:13:58. > :14:01.down something sensible, not astronaut orring in stupid like
:14:02. > :14:05.that. So you wrote you quip? I wrote teacher which never happened either.
:14:06. > :14:08.We don't like to be personal in this paper review, but Joan there is a
:14:09. > :14:13.story which affects you personally? There is and I haven't got it to
:14:14. > :14:20.hand but I know about it. It's the issue, you were speaking about the
:14:21. > :14:25.House of Lords. Lord's reform? Well, there is an interview in which the
:14:26. > :14:33.headline says that Piers should retire at 80. That is age im. Im. --
:14:34. > :14:39.ageism. There are peers over 80 who don't turn up, we are different one
:14:40. > :14:44.from the other. What should judge us in the Lords which needs reform is,
:14:45. > :14:52.are you any use, do you turn up and do a decent job. Far too many peers,
:14:53. > :14:57.there are more peers than anywhere else in the world apart from China.
:14:58. > :15:01.Every day new peers are appointed by David Cameron. They don't vote and
:15:02. > :15:06.don't turn up. We want peers who are alert, sharp, turn up and have had
:15:07. > :15:10.real-life experience. That is true. About 500 turn up every day. I don't
:15:11. > :15:15.believe in the House of Lords at all but I think it's wrong to sack
:15:16. > :15:19.people simply because of their age. That's outrageous sexism and, of all
:15:20. > :15:23.the Lord's reforms that need to be enacted, that would be lowdown in my
:15:24. > :15:29.list. A lot need re-enacting, we all agree. So tonight is the BBC Sports
:15:30. > :15:36.personality of the year award. A certain MP has been very outspoken
:15:37. > :15:38.about Tyson Fury being included with his traveller background and
:15:39. > :15:42.nonpolitically correct ideas but very good at boxing, hitting people?
:15:43. > :15:49.The fact he is a traveller is irrelevant. Tyson Fury has been
:15:50. > :15:54.added by the BBC under controversial circumstances. He sent out the most
:15:55. > :15:58.homophobic tweets, he thinks gay people should be shot dead, he has
:15:59. > :16:04.talked about going home to break his wife's jaw. This is not just for
:16:05. > :16:08.sporting prowess, this is for people who are role models...
:16:09. > :16:11.Personalities. Exactly. The key is in the name - personality. The BBC
:16:12. > :16:14.is not very good at saying we have done something wrong. I suspect when
:16:15. > :16:18.they put him on the list, they didn't know about these tweets, but
:16:19. > :16:21.what they should have done was saying, we have made a terrible
:16:22. > :16:26.mistake and we will withdraw him. He is the World Champion. It is always
:16:27. > :16:29.a difficult balance between how important is somebody's sporting
:16:30. > :16:37.achievement versus their private views. Can you imagine him surviving
:16:38. > :16:46.on this list if he had said, "I want to shoot all Muslims dead." The BBC
:16:47. > :16:52.at senior levels must take Islamophobia more seriously... Do
:16:53. > :16:55.you agree with that? I suspect the people didn't know about this when
:16:56. > :17:02.they put him forward. They had every right to put him forward, as a man
:17:03. > :17:06.who is exemplary in his sporting achievement. Just don't vote for
:17:07. > :17:10.him. For lots of people - he is free to say whatever he likes, no matter
:17:11. > :17:17.how silly. For people sitting at home, especially kids, it sends out
:17:18. > :17:19.the wrong signal. He comes from a fundamentalist Christian background,
:17:20. > :17:24.that is where some of these ideas come from. We will end our paper
:17:25. > :17:27.review with another Christian story, the Queen's Christmas Speech this
:17:28. > :17:32.year is going to be the most - I know you think a lot of stories
:17:33. > :17:41.about the Royal Family in the papers today. It is full! Every paper has a
:17:42. > :17:46.very sycophantic Royal story with few exceptions. Most of the
:17:47. > :17:49.population support the monarchy. This is a story in the Sunday
:17:50. > :17:53.Express talking about how Christians in the Middle East are going to be
:17:54. > :17:57.wiped out in the next decade, if we don't support them. The Queen is
:17:58. > :18:01.apparently - it is all top secret, we don't know what she is going to
:18:02. > :18:04.say. She is apparently going to raise this issue, the persecution of
:18:05. > :18:14.Christians in the Middle East. There is an interesting comment piece in
:18:15. > :18:21.the Mail, "Christians saved me from the Nazis, now I must save them from
:18:22. > :18:33.an even greater evil." Who would have thought in the 21st Century we
:18:34. > :18:34.would be seeing images of crucifixions on our television
:18:35. > :18:37.screen? As we heard in the paper review,
:18:38. > :18:38.the senior Conservative backbencher, and former Defence Secretary,
:18:39. > :18:41.Liam Fox is saying this morning He joins me now, from our Glasgow
:18:42. > :18:52.studio; good morning. Good morning. This is a big moment
:18:53. > :18:55.for you. From now on, presumably, you are going to be a voice,
:18:56. > :19:01.campaigning until the referendum comes for this country to leave the
:19:02. > :19:04.EU? I am. And I took that decision because for me two things had to
:19:05. > :19:07.happen to want to stay in the European Union. One was a
:19:08. > :19:10.fundamental change in Britain's relationship with the European
:19:11. > :19:15.Union, but more importantly, a change in direction for the European
:19:16. > :19:21.Union itself away from the concept of ever closer union and towards a
:19:22. > :19:24.much more independent and loose Association of Sovereign states.
:19:25. > :19:28.That is not going to happen. We will all have to make up our minds,
:19:29. > :19:32.possibly in the next few months. For me, it is clear what direction we
:19:33. > :19:36.should take as a country. Let me ask about the timing of this. The Prime
:19:37. > :19:40.Minister is engaged right at the moment in the toughest bit of
:19:41. > :19:44.negotiation he has ever done in the EU. He will see this as a stab in
:19:45. > :19:48.the back, won't he? I think that it is very clear from the discussions
:19:49. > :19:52.that are going on in Europe, the other leaders are making it clear
:19:53. > :19:55.they intend to move towards ever closer union. That is against
:19:56. > :20:00.Britain's national interests. While the talk may be about accommodating
:20:01. > :20:02.Britain's desires to have a slightly different relationship, as you
:20:03. > :20:07.pointed out earlier in the programme, the European Union is now
:20:08. > :20:10.talking about having a single border force to enforce Europe's external
:20:11. > :20:13.borders for the countries in the Schengen Agreement. For me, the
:20:14. > :20:19.critical point of that was the fact that this is a force that will be
:20:20. > :20:22.deployed by the Commission, not by elected governments, and in fact can
:20:23. > :20:25.be done against the will of sovereign governments. That, for me,
:20:26. > :20:29.is the clearest possible indication about the direction of travel of
:20:30. > :20:32.Europe. I can't accept that. We also read in today's papers that there
:20:33. > :20:36.are members of the Cabinet who agree with you and would like to be on the
:20:37. > :20:42.same side, at least three of them, and another Minister as well. Do you
:20:43. > :20:46.think they ought to be allowed to campaign for Brexit from inside the
:20:47. > :20:49.Cabinet? If you disagree with the Prime Minister, you should leave? I
:20:50. > :20:54.would much prefer them to have the freedom to campaign from within the
:20:55. > :21:00.Cabinet because if you remember the timing of this referendum will come
:21:01. > :21:03.in 2016, or maybe 2017. We have an electoral mandate, we are a majority
:21:04. > :21:07.Government, and we will have to continue to work together to govern
:21:08. > :21:12.the country up till 2020. I think that is best done by having more
:21:13. > :21:15.freedom for individuals to express what is effectively a matter of
:21:16. > :21:18.conscience for them. I think that the more that we are able to give
:21:19. > :21:22.freedom to our colleagues, and the more we treat one another's views
:21:23. > :21:26.with respect and tolerance, the easier I think it will be for us to
:21:27. > :21:29.come together after that referendum to continue to govern the country. I
:21:30. > :21:34.have said very often, look, people who want to stay in the European
:21:35. > :21:38.Union are not unpatriotic and people who want to leave are not idiots. We
:21:39. > :21:43.need to treat one another's views with genuine respect and tolerance.
:21:44. > :21:47.We have this strange situation, which is on the Brexit side. There
:21:48. > :21:53.are two parallel campaigns, your campaign, and the Ukip involved
:21:54. > :21:57.campaign as well. If you are going to be effective about what you would
:21:58. > :22:01.see against the elite establishment stitch-up, you need to get together
:22:02. > :22:05.on the other side. You need to stand on a platform with Nigel Farage,
:22:06. > :22:09.could you do that? Yes, definitely. It has to become a question of the
:22:10. > :22:12.issue and not a question of personalities. I think so much of
:22:13. > :22:17.the focus has been on that and not the detailed debate that we need to
:22:18. > :22:22.get away from. You are correct. Those who want to leave the European
:22:23. > :22:26.Union need to speak with a much greater and much unified voice than
:22:27. > :22:30.they have had up until this point. We will talk about this a great deal
:22:31. > :22:32.over the next few months and the substance of the issues. For now,
:22:33. > :22:35.for this morning, thank you for joining us.
:22:36. > :22:41.You'll have noticed it's unseasonably warm out there.
:22:42. > :22:45.I had my morning coffee wearing shorts - well, no t shorts, but you
:22:46. > :22:47.get the idea! Something to celebrate or something
:22:48. > :22:49.to make us deeply uneasy? I guess it depends
:22:50. > :22:51.on your temperament. Anyway, will it be short
:22:52. > :22:51.sleeves Christmas? Over to Chris Fawkes
:22:52. > :23:02.in the weather studio. Temperatures will be coming back
:23:03. > :23:10.down to normal, but it has been incredibly mild. Temperatures near
:23:11. > :23:14.record levels yesterday. It will cool off over the next
:23:15. > :23:20.couple of days before turning milder for Tuesday. Temperatures will
:23:21. > :23:23.flip-flop around a bit. The showers will clump together across Northern
:23:24. > :23:27.Ireland and Scotland later on, with a lot of cloud in the skies here as
:23:28. > :23:30.we go through the rest of this morning and into the afternoon. The
:23:31. > :23:34.showers moving in on a gusty south-westerly wind. We have also a
:23:35. > :23:38.few showers for Wales and south-west England. They will push across the
:23:39. > :23:41.south coast, towards the south-east later on this afternoon. For England
:23:42. > :23:45.and Wales, much more in the way of sunshine. It will feel a bit
:23:46. > :23:49.fresher. Temperatures between 9 and 14 Celsius. Overnight, the brisk
:23:50. > :23:53.winds will continue to feed the showers in. It won't be particularly
:23:54. > :23:57.cold, temperatures between 6 and 9 Celsius. Tomorrow, we start the day
:23:58. > :24:00.on a dry and bright note for England and Wales, but rain in Northern
:24:01. > :24:03.Ireland will swing into Scotland quite quickly and will spread to
:24:04. > :24:07.England and Wales later in the day. A windy day with gales or severe
:24:08. > :24:10.gales, and a fresher feel to the weather. For Christmas Day,
:24:11. > :24:17.temperatures back close to normal. You might want to get yourself one
:24:18. > :24:20.of those Christmas jumpers! We want nippy, we want frosty!
:24:21. > :24:22.This has been bizarre year for the Labour party.
:24:23. > :24:24.Buoyed by those opinion polls during the election campaign,
:24:25. > :24:27.only to experience one of their worst defeats.
:24:28. > :24:30.Then, Jeremy Corbyn - shazam - wins the leadership.
:24:31. > :24:34.Followed by fierce internal debates, and all too visible splits,
:24:35. > :24:39.Angela Eagle is the most senior member of the Shadow Cabinet,
:24:40. > :24:41.after Mr Corbyn and she stood in for him recently
:24:42. > :24:46.at Prime Minister's Questions rather triumphantly and she's here now.
:24:47. > :24:57.Welcome. There is another Angela on the block! We will see for how long.
:24:58. > :25:00.You had a very, very good time in the House of Commons, you must have
:25:01. > :25:05.enjoyed that moment, having everyone at your back? I did. It's nice to do
:25:06. > :25:09.something like that and not very many people ever get the chance to
:25:10. > :25:14.do it. I have to say I relished it, I enjoyed myself. And a little
:25:15. > :25:18.tickle of ambition at the back, I could do this full-time? You said
:25:19. > :25:22.yourself it is time the Labour Party had a female leader. There will be a
:25:23. > :25:28.female leader at some stage, of course. We have had two female
:25:29. > :25:33.leaders in Harriet Harman and Margaret Beckett. We have a leader.
:25:34. > :25:39.We had a leadership election three months and a bit ago, 100 days on
:25:40. > :25:43.Monday. It is my job to work with the leader that we have got, to try
:25:44. > :25:48.to get the party position so that we can have a go at being the
:25:49. > :25:51.opposition to the Tories and demonstrate some of the mistakes
:25:52. > :25:56.that they are making but also get ourselves sorted so that we can put
:25:57. > :25:59.a compelling case to the British people in 2020 to give us a chance
:26:00. > :26:02.at Government again. He is the best leader you have got, whether or not
:26:03. > :26:06.I'm looking at the next Labour Leader we will leave to viewers to
:26:07. > :26:12.think about. The leader you have got has given an interview to the Sunday
:26:13. > :26:19.Times in which he says he is going to be in place until 2020. After the
:26:20. > :26:23.Oldham by-election, is unassailable? Our leader is of three-months
:26:24. > :26:27.standing. Our job now is to take the fight to the Conservatives and we
:26:28. > :26:33.have been doing that on tax credits and the climb down we had here on
:26:34. > :26:37.that. We have been doing it on things like green industries and
:26:38. > :26:41.some of the climb downs, the abandonment of our lead in green
:26:42. > :26:44.technologies, we will be doing it on economic policy, that is our job as
:26:45. > :26:51.Her Majesty's opposition. You would like to see him lead you into the
:26:52. > :26:58.2020 election? We have our leader. My job, I am... I am smirking! I'm
:26:59. > :27:01.Chair of the National Policy Forum. It is my job to get us into a
:27:02. > :27:06.position where we can have a long, hard look at why we lost. We have
:27:07. > :27:11.lost two elections. We have to remake our approach to the British
:27:12. > :27:15.people. We have got to come up with forward-looking policies which are
:27:16. > :27:19.all about hope, ambition and aspiration for that challenge in
:27:20. > :27:23.2020. You have a range of policies to look at. There are still some
:27:24. > :27:28.fundamental differences over peace and war, over the Syria bombing and
:27:29. > :27:32.so forth, over Trident and so on. In the interview Jeremy Corbyn says, he
:27:33. > :27:36.makes clear he was angry about the behaviour of MPs after Hilary Benn
:27:37. > :27:40.gave that pro-interventionist speech. He talking about jingoistic
:27:41. > :27:44.clapping in the House of Commons. Was it jingoistic clapping? I don't
:27:45. > :27:48.think it was. It was admiration for the case that had been made by
:27:49. > :27:51.Hilary Benn, which I have to say was far better than the case that the
:27:52. > :27:56.Prime Minister managed to make, and can I say at this stage that we are
:27:57. > :28:00.all hopeful that the new UN Resolution, which again was passed
:28:01. > :28:06.unanimously, will begin to create a political process to deal with the
:28:07. > :28:10.terrible situation in Syria, 250,000 people killed, four million people
:28:11. > :28:14.displaced, and that is what is causing a lot of the instability in
:28:15. > :28:22.the Middle East. A rare moment of good news... It is about time that
:28:23. > :28:26.the world decided it's got to bring itself to deal with the tragedy that
:28:27. > :28:29.is going on in Syria. Like you, Hilary Benn disagrees with the
:28:30. > :28:33.leader very much on Trident. And there have been mutterings in the
:28:34. > :28:36.papers today that he might be removed as Shadow Foreign Secretary.
:28:37. > :28:39.Would you like to see that happen? I'm not going to speculate about any
:28:40. > :28:43.future reshuffle that Jeremy will have. The important thing for the
:28:44. > :28:47.Labour Party, and this is what I tried to do at Prime Minister's
:28:48. > :28:51.Questions, is to take the fight to the Conservative Party. We have here
:28:52. > :28:55.a Conservative Party visibly falling apart now on the European Union. You
:28:56. > :28:58.have just interviewed Liam Fox who has basically said he thinks the
:28:59. > :29:02.Cabinet shouldn't have any collective Cabinet responsibility at
:29:03. > :29:06.all. We have a Prime Minister almost playing Russian Roulette... This is
:29:07. > :29:09.the frustration for a lot of Labour Party people. There are lots of
:29:10. > :29:14.problems on the Tory side. And in a sense, the more people focus - I
:29:15. > :29:18.have been doing it myself on Jeremy Corbyn - the less we focus on what
:29:19. > :29:22.is going on. The big report out saying there has been a sharp
:29:23. > :29:25.increase in inequality because the people at the top, the well-off, the
:29:26. > :29:29.people who have houses in the south of this country, are getting rich on
:29:30. > :29:33.the basis of an asset bubble, so much faster than the people in the
:29:34. > :29:40.bottom. This has become a big social problem? Inequality is a huge social
:29:41. > :29:43.problem, but it's also a problem of economic sustainability. It would
:29:44. > :29:47.lead to another crash if you have those kinds of imbalances. Apart
:29:48. > :29:50.from that, what about the life opportunities and the potential of
:29:51. > :29:56.people that never get a chance to get on in life? The Labour Party
:29:57. > :30:00.will be doing this, we have got to look to see what we can do about
:30:01. > :30:04.this to create a sustainable, socially just society that is at the
:30:05. > :30:09.core of why we are in politics. We have this, we have this asset bubble
:30:10. > :30:15.at the top. Do you think, are you attracted by ideas like thoss of
:30:16. > :30:18.Tristram Hunt for some new graduated, more sophisticated wealth
:30:19. > :30:20.tax to damp that bubble down and take a bit of the money from the top
:30:21. > :30:32.and redistribute it? What we hope to do and what I hope
:30:33. > :30:40.to do as chairman of the national policy reform so look to do what we
:30:41. > :30:43.can to resolve this. We have got to have debates and all power to
:30:44. > :30:46.Jeremy's elbow, he's said the Labour Party's got to discuss and have
:30:47. > :30:50.debates about things and he's very open about that. He is. That is what
:30:51. > :30:55.we need to do to renew our appeal to the British people. And he wants to
:30:56. > :31:04.do it increasingly through what looks look an electronic plebIsite,
:31:05. > :31:08.he asks what they give about guns or whatever and they give a result. We
:31:09. > :31:12.have talked about the national policy forum which is where the
:31:13. > :31:17.clever grandees get together and work things out. They are not
:31:18. > :31:20.grandees, they have been elected geographically and represent
:31:21. > :31:24.different sections of the party to be those who make decisions that
:31:25. > :31:28.then go to conference. So you would not like that, presumably, to be
:31:29. > :31:33.abolished? No, the committee had its meeting in November, said it didn't
:31:34. > :31:37.want the forum abolished. What we can do with digital technology is
:31:38. > :31:42.have platforms where we can have more meaningful debates where we can
:31:43. > :31:45.involve party members and also wider members of the public in discussing
:31:46. > :31:49.the way forward for our country in policy terms and that's got to be a
:31:50. > :31:52.good thing. We need to make sure political parties reach out to the
:31:53. > :31:56.public at large to deal with this alienation we've got at the moment
:31:57. > :32:00.between those that believe politics are important and those who believe
:32:01. > :32:04.it's just some kind of game that's selfish. It isn't, it's about what
:32:05. > :32:08.kind of a society we want. Before I come back to the national policy
:32:09. > :32:14.forum, what is your view? It seems this is a moment where the more
:32:15. > :32:18.routine arming of police with more liberal use of guns on the streets,
:32:19. > :32:24.it's a moment we are crossing a rubicon of some kind? There have to
:32:25. > :32:28.be safeguards because we know what happened when people were shot
:32:29. > :32:32.wrongly and we saw that with Jean Charles de Menezes. We also need to
:32:33. > :32:36.give our armed police the confidence, if they are dealing with
:32:37. > :32:42.a marauding terrorist of the sort that we saw in Paris, that they can
:32:43. > :32:46.get that person down and get them on the ground and save lives. It's
:32:47. > :32:51.important to get the balance right, it's got to be democratically
:32:52. > :32:56.decided but we just can't have shoot-to-kill without any democratic
:32:57. > :32:59.involvement. There is a good example of a policy that has to be worked
:33:00. > :33:03.through? There is no yes or no answer to that. Is your message then
:33:04. > :33:09.that the use of the democratic new membership, all the hundreds of
:33:10. > :33:13.thousands of people, that is very good as an advisory thing but can't
:33:14. > :33:18.be the final policy-making mechanism? We can't make policies by
:33:19. > :33:23.plebiscite because there are policies that have clear yes and no
:33:24. > :33:26.answers. But we need to have debate and decision-making after
:33:27. > :33:30.everybody's been listened to. Democratically arrived at through
:33:31. > :33:33.the processes and I'm determined to deliver a much better version than
:33:34. > :33:36.we have had in the past. Angela Eagle, thank you very much.
:33:37. > :33:38.It's 25 years since, in the most dramatic circumstances,
:33:39. > :33:41.Sir John Major became leader of the Conservative Party,
:33:42. > :33:46.You could say the Tories have never resolved the issue which ultimately
:33:47. > :33:50.led to his predecessor, Mrs Thatcher's fall from power.
:33:51. > :33:54.Namely, the party's attitude to Europe.
:33:55. > :33:56.Sir John wrestled with it during his premiership.
:33:57. > :34:00.He also had to deal with war in the Middle East, a recession,
:34:01. > :34:15.Thanks for coming in. Pleasure. Let's talk about the economy. You
:34:16. > :34:20.were a young Prime Minister, there was an asset bubble thing going on,
:34:21. > :34:24.interest rates ticked up and we ALL: Sorts of problems with negative
:34:25. > :34:27.equity. Interest rates are on the move up again led by the Fed, we
:34:28. > :34:31.have a problematic asset bubble in terms of house prices in the UK,
:34:32. > :34:36.leading to inequality, as we were talking about. I wonder about your
:34:37. > :34:40.reflections, 25-odd years on from that, how do you see that problem? I
:34:41. > :34:45.don't think we are going to get rapidly rising interest rates at
:34:46. > :34:49.all. In the 1990s, we were on the back of a huge inflationary bubble.
:34:50. > :34:53.People forget on the day I became Prime Minister we were heading into
:34:54. > :35:00.a recession, we had interest rates at 14%. 14%? ! Yes, so totally
:35:01. > :35:03.different background. Now, fell they had have ticked up interest rates a
:35:04. > :35:08.little and I think this will be a very slow process. I don't think we
:35:09. > :35:12.are suddenly going to see a huge spiral in interest rates. Mortgage
:35:13. > :35:16.owners will be concerned about that. I doubt that is going to happen. But
:35:17. > :35:20.I think there are some problems that we can foresee ahead. In a curious
:35:21. > :35:24.way, the low price of oil is likely to be a problem because many of the
:35:25. > :35:28.countries that have invested often overseas are going to be much
:35:29. > :35:33.shorter of cash than they were. I think three large economies will
:35:34. > :35:38.probably be in difficulty next year, Russia, Brazil and China will slow a
:35:39. > :35:41.little. But overall, I think we'll see the world economy growing a
:35:42. > :35:47.little faster and Europe will be going a little faster as well. You
:35:48. > :35:50.came in as the Brixton boy from a cash-poor family in your background.
:35:51. > :35:55.How worried are you about inequality now? I was and I am worried. It was
:35:56. > :35:59.a great frustration to me that I had to deal with other things that the
:36:00. > :36:03.European splits in the party and getting the economy right and I was
:36:04. > :36:07.never able to do for inequality what I wished to and that is a lasting
:36:08. > :36:12.regret but it exists. It's not the fault of this Government or the
:36:13. > :36:17.immediate past Governments, it's grown up over 40 or 50 years and it
:36:18. > :36:22.is extraordinary that here we are, we are the fifth biggest economy in
:36:23. > :36:27.the world, we are growing, and yet we have seven out of the ten poorest
:36:28. > :36:31.regions in northern Europe. Now, that cannot be right. It's wrong,
:36:32. > :36:35.but what can be done about it? Well, I think some of it is starting to be
:36:36. > :36:38.done but there is a great deal more to be done. The Chancellor's concept
:36:39. > :36:43.of a northern powerhouse is exactly right. We need to spread the wealth
:36:44. > :36:49.in this country more evenly than previously it's been spread. That
:36:50. > :36:52.means necessarily large scale capital investment outside London in
:36:53. > :36:56.the West Country, for example, to open that up to investment in the
:36:57. > :37:01.the Midlands and in the north. That is a long job but it's necessary.
:37:02. > :37:06.You can't talk about redistribution and taxing the people at the top
:37:07. > :37:10.more without outrage from about the place. It's become completely
:37:11. > :37:13.impossible to discuss? I wasn't talking about taxing people more
:37:14. > :37:17.because if you do, you are going to make us less competitive as an
:37:18. > :37:20.economy. We should spread out investment more wisely and we should
:37:21. > :37:25.have more incentives to encourage people to invest outside the regions
:37:26. > :37:29.that typically have attracted investment into the Midlands and the
:37:30. > :37:33.north. It's vitally important. So more interventionist Government
:37:34. > :37:37.strategy? I think we've always had a form of intervention, it depends on
:37:38. > :37:41.how much, I don't welcome intervention into detail but I do
:37:42. > :37:45.welcome intervention in encouraging people to invest in our country and
:37:46. > :37:49.particularly in the parts of our country where people are falling
:37:50. > :37:54.behind. It isn't acceptable. If you have the degree of inequality that
:37:55. > :37:57.has built up over so long, it's not acceptable. I'm delighted we have a
:37:58. > :38:02.Chancellor seeking to reverse that. You must have had a bit of deja vu
:38:03. > :38:06.over the last few days watching David Cameron, I don't know how many
:38:07. > :38:10.shirts he carried with him for the negotiations, it was in Brussels,
:38:11. > :38:15.not Maastricht, but do you think this is a negotiation in which he's
:38:16. > :38:20.in a sense too trivial, sort as some people on the Euro-sceptic side say,
:38:21. > :38:24.meaningless? Isn't it curious, the sceptics say it's meaningless and
:38:25. > :38:27.trivial and it embraces many of the things they have asked for for a
:38:28. > :38:30.long time. Consider what the Prime Minister is trying to negotiate.
:38:31. > :38:33.He's trying to negotiate an end to our commitment to have a closer
:38:34. > :38:37.union. I think he'll succeed in that. Is that trivial? If it is, why
:38:38. > :38:43.have the Euro-sceptics been asking for it for the last 20 years? He's
:38:44. > :38:47.trying to negotiate more come forgettiveness set out clearly in
:38:48. > :38:53.his letter to Donald Tusk and trying to set out things that matter to us,
:38:54. > :38:59.like might rancy, seeking to intervene, do so now if you wish.
:39:00. > :39:07.The specific prom theys he was going to end in-work Ben by thes for four
:39:08. > :39:11.years for EU migrants -- benefits. That is something people are
:39:12. > :39:15.determined we'll not get and, in a sense, has he not created a problem
:39:16. > :39:20.by saying, I'm going to get this. If he doesn't get it, it may not be the
:39:21. > :39:24.most important issue, but he'll be crucified over it? It's a sub set of
:39:25. > :39:28.the might rancy issue, of course. Whether he'll get exactly four years
:39:29. > :39:32.I can't say, but the whole ethos of the European Union is compromise.
:39:33. > :39:36.The European Union are not going to wish Britain to leave, they are not
:39:37. > :39:42.going to wish Britain to leave because we tend to look here at what
:39:43. > :39:46.our position is. Consider Europe's position were we to leave the
:39:47. > :39:50.European Union, what would Europe lose, forget what we'd lose for the
:39:51. > :39:56.moment. The European Union would lose... A big export market of
:39:57. > :40:00.course. That's not a huge argument as you might think. They would lose
:40:01. > :40:04.the best-performing economy in Europe, they will lose the economy
:40:05. > :40:08.that in 20 years is likely to be the biggest economy in Europe, they'll
:40:09. > :40:11.lose the country with the longest, most historic foreign policy reach,
:40:12. > :40:16.they'll lose one of only two countries with a military capability
:40:17. > :40:20.and a nuclear capacity. Now, if Europe was formed, as it was, to
:40:21. > :40:25.look America and China and the big countries of the world in the eye as
:40:26. > :40:32.equals, if Britain comes out, thatment bigs's gone. So it will
:40:33. > :40:37.have to be something substantial? They would be imminencely diminished
:40:38. > :40:41.and they know it. Everybody is setting out situations, it's classic
:40:42. > :40:45.European situations on both sides, setting out positions and they'll
:40:46. > :40:50.meet, a compromise will be reached and the compromise won't just deal
:40:51. > :40:55.with trivial issues. Subsidiarity isn't trivial. Germany and Britain
:40:56. > :40:59.put that in in Maastricht, meaning things were only done at European
:41:00. > :41:03.level if they couldn't be done at national level that. Was agreed at
:41:04. > :41:07.Maastricht and then by passed by the then Commission. Well, if it's
:41:08. > :41:09.reinserted again, it will be reinserted in a way that they'll not
:41:10. > :41:15.be able to by pass. That's essential? Very important. That's
:41:16. > :41:18.one of the things that's caused so much frustration with the European
:41:19. > :41:23.Union and there is frustration right the way through the country. In the
:41:24. > :41:26.end, they are not going to change their spots, Charles Moore, I'm not
:41:27. > :41:29.sure he's your favourite columnist but he said something very
:41:30. > :41:31.interesting, two things are going to happen, one is, the Prime Minister
:41:32. > :41:34.will come back with something he's able to say, this is a successful
:41:35. > :41:38.renegotiation, look what I've got, but the second thing he said is that
:41:39. > :41:43.this will not fundamentally change either the direction of the EU or
:41:44. > :41:46.our relationship with the EU, on the fundamentals it remains the same.
:41:47. > :41:50.The European Union's already changed with the Advent of the eurozone.
:41:51. > :41:55.What we are heading towards is a European Union that has a eurozone
:41:56. > :41:59.and non-eurozone members. One thing the Prime Minister's seeking to
:42:00. > :42:04.negotiate is to protect us from paying for the policies of the
:42:05. > :42:08.eurozone members. Now, that is significantly different. Allie that
:42:09. > :42:12.to an end to ever closer union and you do begin to see a rather
:42:13. > :42:16.different relationship. Add to that subsidiarity and you have a very
:42:17. > :42:20.tink relationship. So the argument that the Euro-sceptics have been
:42:21. > :42:24.advancing since before the Prime Minister set out his aims that it
:42:25. > :42:27.would be trivial is a good negotiating, arguing point for them,
:42:28. > :42:31.but it's essentially bogus when you look at the detail of what is
:42:32. > :42:36.actually being discussed. Sticking with that detail, the business of
:42:37. > :42:39.transitional in-work benefits coming into the UK, the big problem for the
:42:40. > :42:43.Prime Minister is discrimination between one citizen of the EU and
:42:44. > :42:48.another of the EU. Do you think that can be overcome? It's an interesting
:42:49. > :42:51.word discrimination isn't it? We are saying there's discrimination if
:42:52. > :42:54.people don't get exactly the same benefits, you could argue that it's
:42:55. > :42:57.a discrimination that people who're watching this programme have been
:42:58. > :43:01.paying into our national insurance system for 40 years and someone
:43:02. > :43:04.arriving on day one gets exactly the same benefits. I think that's an
:43:05. > :43:08.equal form of discrimination. I think we are going to have to
:43:09. > :43:13.recognise that and I don't know what the outcome will be but I think
:43:14. > :43:16.there'll be a compromise. There will be some kind of compromise? I think
:43:17. > :43:25.so. What about the issue of open borders? This has produced and
:43:26. > :43:29.extestential crisis, an overused word, but this Europe of open
:43:30. > :43:34.borders, the Schengen Europe, people being able to move from one country
:43:35. > :43:42.to another quickly, Liam Fox raised the issue of terrorists being able
:43:43. > :43:45.to use this as well. People will be worried? The question is whether
:43:46. > :43:49.we'll be able to stop that in anything we did. If we look at the
:43:50. > :43:54.question of freedom of movement, there are several things, freedom of
:43:55. > :43:58.movement is said to be sacrosanct because it's one of the four
:43:59. > :44:03.European freedoms. That's a totally phoney argument. Another four of the
:44:04. > :44:08.European freedoms of movement of goods and services, Germany, France
:44:09. > :44:11.and other countries block our banking, insurance, technology
:44:12. > :44:14.services, so the belief that that is absolutely fundamental. You are
:44:15. > :44:19.beginning to sound like Liam Fox at this point? Well, they do, and that
:44:20. > :44:24.is the sort of thing we are going to have to change. The bigger issues is
:44:25. > :44:27.why I'm convinced we have to stay in for our future. On the question of
:44:28. > :44:32.the sheer flow of people coming here, here is a matter where we
:44:33. > :44:39.should move away from rigid positions and look at the reality.
:44:40. > :44:42.It's not common-sense to sweep into countries more people than we can
:44:43. > :44:48.provide for if they are sick than we can house or we can educate. And we
:44:49. > :44:52.need a common-sense position. Let us accept the principle of free
:44:53. > :44:58.movement, but it has to be mitigated to deal with the number of people
:44:59. > :45:03.that can be accepted in any given period and that again is a piece of
:45:04. > :45:09.common-sense negotiation that ought to be accepted to our partners. If
:45:10. > :45:12.we left, we'd get control of our borders back period?
:45:13. > :45:19.Consider what that means. We would have control. Just a moment. We have
:45:20. > :45:23.been letting more people in than most of the people objecting to us
:45:24. > :45:27.being in Europe would like. Without them, we wouldn't have a transport
:45:28. > :45:30.system, we probably wouldn't - we certainly wouldn't have a national
:45:31. > :45:35.health system, so let's not assume immigration per se is a bad thing,
:45:36. > :45:40.it isn't. Neither is it per se a bad thing from Europe. It's the sheer
:45:41. > :45:44.total of it. Now, if we had control of our own borders, I wonder what
:45:45. > :45:49.would happen with all the people who had got into Calais, to France.
:45:50. > :45:52.Would the French keep them there? Or would they say this is no longer our
:45:53. > :46:00.problem, Britain is outside the European Union. We are no longer
:46:01. > :46:06.going to hold them at Calais. Do we want that situation to arise? We do
:46:07. > :46:10.believe that, in an open world, that we have at the moment, that we can
:46:11. > :46:15.opt out and become a closed nation? I tell you, Andrew, it's a fantasy.
:46:16. > :46:19.Is it? A lot of people would say that the French are allowing as many
:46:20. > :46:23.of those migrants to go to Dunkirk, and they are coming into the
:46:24. > :46:27.country. If we had a hard border of our own, we could stop them coming
:46:28. > :46:30.in? Do you think that is so? I have no idea. Do you really think all the
:46:31. > :46:33.implications of that would necessarily be right in terms of our
:46:34. > :46:37.international reputation, our international trade and all the
:46:38. > :46:42.things that go with it? I don't think that is the case. We are
:46:43. > :46:46.better able to deal with this problem collectively rather than
:46:47. > :46:51.siphoning ourself off, cutting ourselves away from the biggest
:46:52. > :46:53.single market in the world and seeking to negotiate a new
:46:54. > :46:58.arrangement with that single market which would be less convenient and
:46:59. > :47:03.less good for us. Of course, they are selling us much more in goods
:47:04. > :47:08.than we are selling them? There is a fallacy in that argument. Many of
:47:09. > :47:13.the things that they sell to us, they would continue selling them to
:47:14. > :47:15.us because that's covered by wider treaties than the European Treaties.
:47:16. > :47:20.The converse would be that the things we want to sell to them,
:47:21. > :47:24.services and other things, can be blocked by the Europeans. So it
:47:25. > :47:31.would be very much to our overall disadvantage. One final... There are
:47:32. > :47:35.27 of them, there are one of us. So the beliefs that Europe is going to
:47:36. > :47:39.collapse if it loses the UK market is a bit wide of the mark. One final
:47:40. > :47:42.question on this. You have intervened in this argument today.
:47:43. > :47:46.How big an argument is it for the country? Alan Johnson, who is
:47:47. > :47:51.leading the Labour campaign to stay in Europe, was on the programme, and
:47:52. > :47:57.he said he thought it was a once in a lifetime, a 30-year kind of
:47:58. > :48:02.decision, do you take the same view? It is a long-term decision. The
:48:03. > :48:06.argument we can have a referendum, say no, go back and renegotiate is a
:48:07. > :48:12.fallacy. If we come out, we are out. That is it. It's not politically
:48:13. > :48:16.credible to go back and say we have reconsidered, let's have another
:48:17. > :48:20.referendum. If we vote to stay out, then we are out and we will have to
:48:21. > :48:24.get on with it and face the consequences, which will be many and
:48:25. > :48:28.varied. Of course, we will survive. We are a big and a powerful nation.
:48:29. > :48:36.Of course, we will. That is not the point. The point is, would we be as
:48:37. > :48:40.safe? No. Would we be as well off? No. That is the point that is at
:48:41. > :48:42.issue. Thank you very much for joining us.
:48:43. > :48:43.This has been an extraordinary year, for domestic politics,
:48:44. > :48:46.I have a nasty feeling I say that every year -
:48:47. > :48:49.but 2015 has seen the further implosion of Syria, the migrant
:48:50. > :48:54.And here we've had the dramas over Europe, and the Labour leadership -
:48:55. > :48:56.all flowing of course from the outcome of
:48:57. > :49:00.Let's take a look back at some of the most memorable moments
:49:01. > :49:04.from this show, over the past 12 months.
:49:05. > :49:16.# I was wondering if after all these years you'd like to meet.
:49:17. > :49:22.I'm going to give you an interview in a minute.
:49:23. > :49:33.I think this is election is still going to be a close
:49:34. > :49:35.and a hard-fought election and I'm going
:49:36. > :49:48.Both these two men would happily do a deal with David Cameron and put
:49:49. > :49:52.Are you going to borrow an extra ?8 billion?
:49:53. > :49:55.Are you going to borrow an extra ?8 billion?
:49:56. > :50:01.If you have a sensible plan to balance your public finances,
:50:02. > :50:03.you have a stronger economy and you have
:50:04. > :50:06.I keep asking you very straight questions where
:50:07. > :50:09.I'm giving you very straight answers.
:50:10. > :50:10.No, you keep saying sensible and balance
:50:11. > :50:14.We're going to see who else wants to be part of that.
:50:15. > :50:16.It is one of the scariest interviews I have heard for a very long time.
:50:17. > :50:29.Are you the same creature... Don't get rattled. Is there some... Come
:50:30. > :50:31.on, Boris! We're 23 seats short
:50:32. > :50:34.from a majority Government. I can't see how you
:50:35. > :50:36.are going to get them. I'm not going to talk
:50:37. > :50:38.about anything other than winning Nicola Sturgeon has been talking
:50:39. > :50:49.to the Prime Minister by phone, The key point to make to him,
:50:50. > :50:54.and did make to him, He cannot act now as if it is
:50:55. > :50:57.as business as usual in Scotland. Scotland voted for change
:50:58. > :51:02.and I think that has to be heeded. I'm not expecting laying on of hands
:51:03. > :51:14.here, but he is the kind of candidate who is saying the kind
:51:15. > :51:16.of things you were talking He has a little way to go, but I
:51:17. > :51:22.think he'll get there. Do you think it is right at this
:51:23. > :51:24.point for the Labour Party I have seen the Labour Party
:51:25. > :51:30.written off, come together, come back into Government, and that
:51:31. > :51:33.is what we need to do again. Only one story today and the
:51:34. > :51:37.predictable split. This is a huge change
:51:38. > :51:39.for the Labour Party. There is no point in denying
:51:40. > :51:41.this is a huge political But Jeremy Corbyn has got a huge
:51:42. > :51:46.mandate from our members. Those people already talking
:51:47. > :51:49.about a putsch or a coup against him, what is
:51:50. > :51:51.your message to them? There is zero chance
:51:52. > :51:53.of that happening. Labour Party members
:51:54. > :51:55.will not accept that. Is it the view of the Shadow Cabinet
:51:56. > :51:58.that becomes the Labour Party view whipped in the House
:51:59. > :52:00.of Commons, or is it the view of Conference that becomes
:52:01. > :52:02.the Labour Party view, whipped in the House of Commons,
:52:03. > :52:06.or is there no whip at all? You are asking the most fundamental
:52:07. > :52:07.philosophical question So, what is the fundamental
:52:08. > :52:13.philosophical answer? The fundamental philosophical answer
:52:14. > :52:15.is we will have to discuss it and debate it and come
:52:16. > :52:18.to a philosophical solution to it! We have a leader
:52:19. > :52:20.of the opposition who says quite openly he would never
:52:21. > :52:22.press the nuclear button, It would worry me if that thought
:52:23. > :52:30.was translated into power Well, there's a couple of hurdles
:52:31. > :52:39.to cross before we get to that. # She said shut up and dance with
:52:40. > :52:50.me! # 99% of what they do
:52:51. > :52:54.on that show is not real. You could never get an Education
:52:55. > :52:59.Bill passed that fast. Are you tempted by
:53:00. > :53:03.public office yourself? You have resisted the vast
:53:04. > :53:14.magnetic pull of Hollywood. I think they have
:53:15. > :53:20.resisted me as much What is your advice
:53:21. > :53:25.to the kind of younger generation that haven't been able
:53:26. > :53:29.to handle it so well? You can live a clean life
:53:30. > :53:33.and don't do as I do. This is totally different from
:53:34. > :53:58.Charlie Hebdo attacks, this time it We stand absolutely shoulder
:53:59. > :54:07.to shoulder with the French We are both very clear
:54:08. > :54:13.that the terrorists will not win. Well, Sir John Major
:54:14. > :54:36.is still with me - and we've been joined
:54:37. > :54:44.again by Joan Bakewell. John, we have got potentially three
:54:45. > :54:48.members of the Cabinet who want to campaign alongside Liam Fox for
:54:49. > :54:51.Brexit, should they be allowed to stay in the Cabinet and disagree
:54:52. > :54:54.with the Prime Minister while doing so? I spent the best part of seven
:54:55. > :55:02.years trying to keep a party at civil war over Europe together. And
:55:03. > :55:07.I think it would be extraordinary if anybody decided to campaign against
:55:08. > :55:11.Cabinet policy, at least until the negotiations are completed. When the
:55:12. > :55:14.negotiations are completed, I would hope that they would not wish to
:55:15. > :55:22.campaign against the Cabinet. If they did, should they be allowed to
:55:23. > :55:27.stay? That is a big if, if is the longest preposition in the English
:55:28. > :55:32.language. I would hope afterwards, that they would not wish to because
:55:33. > :55:35.the unity of the argument for the sake of the country, this is bigger
:55:36. > :55:40.than the Conservative Party, the argument for the sake of the country
:55:41. > :55:48.is very important and people deserve to hear a clear-cut argument, not an
:55:49. > :55:52.piece of party strife. Joan? This is clearly Cameron's opportunity for
:55:53. > :55:57.leadership. This is going to call on leadership as never before. And if
:55:58. > :56:00.he is going to come back with a negotiation that satisfies him, he
:56:01. > :56:04.has got to be able to sell it to the Cabinet. He has to sell it to the
:56:05. > :56:10.country, of course. But he must - it is going to lead the stay in
:56:11. > :56:14.campaign, which he wants to do... If he can't convince his own Cabinet,
:56:15. > :56:18.he is unlikely to convince the country? I personally believe he
:56:19. > :56:22.will come back with a satisfactory deal and he will be able to convince
:56:23. > :56:28.the country. The trouble with the European debate, ever since it
:56:29. > :56:31.began, it's often conducted at the extremes. People who will never
:56:32. > :56:36.really be persuaded that we should be in and people who are utterly
:56:37. > :56:41.convinced that we should not leave. In the midst of that, in the middle
:56:42. > :56:45.of it, is the rest of us. It is the rest of us, the great mass of the
:56:46. > :56:49.British people, whom David Cameron will have to convince it is better
:56:50. > :56:53.for our future, their children and their children and our international
:56:54. > :56:58.influence that we should stay in a world that is drawing together
:56:59. > :57:03.rather than exclude ourselves and become an offshore island, a big and
:57:04. > :57:08.a powerful one admittedly, but an offshore island of the biggest
:57:09. > :57:12.continental market in the world. Joan Bakewell, a youthful member of
:57:13. > :57:15.the House of Lords, Sir John Major, thank you for joining us.
:57:16. > :57:16.That's almost it for this year - thanks to all my guests today,
:57:17. > :57:17.and over the past 12 months, and to you for watching.
:57:18. > :57:20.We're taking a break now for a couple of weeks,
:57:21. > :57:21.but I'll be back on 10th January, when I'll be joined
:57:22. > :57:23.by the Prime Minister, David Cameron, in the first
:57:24. > :57:26.of a series of interviews with the main party leaders.
:57:27. > :57:30.Until then, we leave you with Catrin Finch and some music
:57:31. > :57:33.to get you in the festive spirit - Happy Christmas!