:00:00. > :00:08.Who are the biggest powers in today's world, global companies
:00:09. > :00:13.That's at the heart of this week's bitter row over the Google tax deal.
:00:14. > :00:37.Today, for the first time, we hear both sides.
:00:38. > :00:40.After days of silence, Google today explains its case:
:00:41. > :00:43.my guests include their Vice President for Communications
:00:44. > :00:52.And the Business Secretary Sajid Javid, on that and a major challenge
:00:53. > :01:02.The other big story of the week is Europe, with the Prime Minister
:01:03. > :01:10.I'll be joined by one of the leading business advocates of a British Exit
:01:11. > :01:14.And for journalists and everyone interested in journalism,
:01:15. > :01:17.the standout film at the moment is about the Boston Globe's
:01:18. > :01:19.investigation into paedophile priests.
:01:20. > :01:28.I'll talk to Michael Keaton, Spotlight's star, later.
:01:29. > :01:36.Plus, from North Carolina, some sublime music.
:01:37. > :01:43.The gorgeous voice of Rhiannon Giddens.
:01:44. > :01:49.Plus, on the papers, tormentor in chief in the Commons
:01:50. > :01:52.of both Google and the BBC, Margaret Hodge, and on the eve
:01:53. > :01:54.of the first Primary in the US presidential election,
:01:55. > :01:56.a Republican abroad, Kate Andrews.
:01:57. > :02:10.We begin with some breaking news. It has been announced that Sir Terry
:02:11. > :02:17.Wogan has died after a short but brave battle with cancer. Sir Terry
:02:18. > :02:21.Pastore surrounded by his family. A statement from the BBC reads,"
:02:22. > :02:33.whilst that we understand he will be missed by many, we ask for privacy
:02:34. > :02:37.at this time". That is a statement from his family. The death announced
:02:38. > :02:43.in the last few moments of the broadcaster Sir Terry Wogan.
:02:44. > :02:45.David Cameron is to put forward new proposals on the proposed
:02:46. > :02:54."emergency brake" for in-work benefits for EU migrants.
:02:55. > :02:56.Last week, the European Commission said Britain could apply
:02:57. > :02:58.an emergency brake for up to four years,
:02:59. > :03:00.but would first have to prove that public services
:03:01. > :03:04.Other EU states would also have to agree to the measure.
:03:05. > :03:10.The Prime Minister will discuss his proposal with Donald Tusk in Downing
:03:11. > :03:13.Street later today. David Cameron has asked a Labour MP
:03:14. > :03:16.to examine why black offenders are more likely to be jailed
:03:17. > :03:18.than white offenders in English The former barrister
:03:19. > :03:21.David Lammy will review the so-called "over-representation"
:03:22. > :03:23.of black and minority ethnic Launching an anti-discrimination
:03:24. > :03:27.drive, Mr Cameron also said action They will be legally required
:03:28. > :03:33.to provide a breakdown of the ethnicity of every student
:03:34. > :03:38.to whom they make an offer. Conservationists have paid tribute
:03:39. > :03:41.to a British helicopter pilot who was shot dead by elephant
:03:42. > :03:44.poachers in Tanzania while working The Friedkin Conservation Fund said
:03:45. > :03:49.Roger Gower was helping to track the criminals
:03:50. > :03:53.when they fired on his aircraft. Tennis: Andy Murray has
:03:54. > :03:56.begun his Australian Open final match against Novak
:03:57. > :04:00.Djokovic, in Melbourne. Murray's fellow Scot Gordon Reid won
:04:01. > :04:02.the wheelchair title. And his brother Jamie Murray won
:04:03. > :04:07.the doubles yesterday. It's the first time since 1906 that
:04:08. > :04:20.two brothers have made separate Just to recount the news announced
:04:21. > :04:25.in the past moment or so that Sir Terry Wogan has passed away after a
:04:26. > :04:29.short battle with cancer. So, farewell, Tel, that news is
:04:30. > :04:52.fell. A man of wits... So to the papers. The Observer, on
:04:53. > :05:00.our theme of the day, Fury over Conservative battle to protect
:05:01. > :05:13.Google's ?30 million tax haven, that is Bermuda. They say that of the ten
:05:14. > :05:20.biggest companies, six of them are paying zero corporation tax. They
:05:21. > :05:28.feature the announcement by David Cameron that universities are going
:05:29. > :05:31.to have to publish the figures of the ethnic make-up of their
:05:32. > :05:36.students. Another Google story in the Sunday Mirror, Google gets paid
:05:37. > :05:43.to help collect our taxes. They are cross about that. We don't normally
:05:44. > :05:48.show the Sunday Times Magazine but that is about the tragedy affecting
:05:49. > :05:55.Sir David Frost's family and we will be talking about that immediately
:05:56. > :06:00.after the newspapers. So, Kate, Google everywhere today. Everywhere.
:06:01. > :06:03.The Observer are furious about the Google moving funds around the world
:06:04. > :06:07.and they are accusing them of avoiding corporation tax. I think
:06:08. > :06:12.what I'm most surprised about as the story develops is how many people
:06:13. > :06:15.think this is a stitch up. Age MRC do not go into those talks with
:06:16. > :06:20.Google to try to let them off the hook. They are trying to get as much
:06:21. > :06:27.money out of them as possible. But legally in the UK we don't tax
:06:28. > :06:30.revenue, we tax profit. To me the Google story isn't a question of
:06:31. > :06:35.whether or not they are legally within the law, it looks like they
:06:36. > :06:39.are, the question is whether or not corporation tax is how we should be
:06:40. > :06:43.taxing corporations altogether. And whether it is fair to those hundreds
:06:44. > :06:50.of thousands of companies who can't go to rage MRC for private meetings
:06:51. > :06:56.and fix their own tax breaks. Absolutely, it means they can't be
:06:57. > :07:00.as competitive, it's true. We did a research paper two years ago and we
:07:01. > :07:08.found that corporation tax is really a 60% stealth tax on the worker.
:07:09. > :07:13.It's possible we need to look away to maybe taxing corporate sales or
:07:14. > :07:17.something else. All taxes in the end come out of people's pockets, so I
:07:18. > :07:23.don't think it's a sensible point to make. I picked out the Sunday Times
:07:24. > :07:30.which actually says that six of the top ten biggest companies in the UK
:07:31. > :07:35.do not pay corporation tax. BP, Vodafone, AstraZeneca, none of them
:07:36. > :07:40.paid corporation tax. We know they did what they ought to have done,
:07:41. > :07:44.people have been saying that, but the truth is that we don't. One of
:07:45. > :07:49.the real changes I've been campaigning on for a long time and I
:07:50. > :07:52.think it's imperative is that we've got to open these negotiations
:07:53. > :07:59.between the large corporations and HMRC to public scrutiny. I would
:08:00. > :08:05.take the FTSE top hundred and say they are all publicly quoted
:08:06. > :08:08.companies, we no longer have the taxpayer confidentiality, we really
:08:09. > :08:12.open it to public account, then we will be able to see if they are
:08:13. > :08:16.doing the right thing. I don't think they are. I think getting away with
:08:17. > :08:20.paying no tax when it's clear you have economic activity here in the
:08:21. > :08:24.UK, you're making profits off that and this is a profits -based tax and
:08:25. > :08:28.everyone feels that is wrong. The big problem is, what is a prophet
:08:29. > :08:36.and how much value added has there been in this country? That is a very
:08:37. > :08:41.difficult, intricate problem. I would love to see so much more
:08:42. > :08:45.transparency when it comes to government spending and even
:08:46. > :08:49.negotiations like this. We live in a globalised community now and when we
:08:50. > :08:53.tax profit, even here in the UK when we are taxing the activity going on
:08:54. > :08:57.in the UK, we can't pretend that people in other countries don't
:08:58. > :09:04.deserve part of that tax. The engineers over in California coming
:09:05. > :09:08.up with Google apps, the intellectual property... I think
:09:09. > :09:13.you're being a little naive. The front page of the Observer talks
:09:14. > :09:19.about ?30 billion sitting in Bermuda, that is the profits made by
:09:20. > :09:24.Google in Europe sitting in a no tax jurisdiction. This is what makes me
:09:25. > :09:28.so cross about Google. Google claim that they don't actually sell in
:09:29. > :09:35.Britain. Who have you got on today West at the PR man. You don't have
:09:36. > :09:38.the chief executive on. Let me just say, all the whistle-blowers we had
:09:39. > :09:44.giving evidence to us two years ago demonstrated not that Google are
:09:45. > :09:49.selling into Britain from Ireland, but it's clear from them, a massive
:09:50. > :09:54.new office in King's Cross as well... Before we leave this story,
:09:55. > :09:57.you mentioned the whistle-blower, a guy called Barney Jones, not the
:09:58. > :10:01.same Barney Jones associated with this programme, he came to you with
:10:02. > :10:07.hundreds of internal e-mails and what was the essence of what that
:10:08. > :10:11.showed? That Google was marketing here in the UK and doing research
:10:12. > :10:16.here in the UK and actually invoices were at that time going out from the
:10:17. > :10:22.UK. That's why I'm convinced that HMRC has not been tough enough and
:10:23. > :10:26.the only way we will come to a consensus... Do we need a completely
:10:27. > :10:31.different system of corporate taxation? Corporation tax goes back
:10:32. > :10:35.to the 1920s, I think. If you look at this Observer today, that ?30
:10:36. > :10:41.billion sitting in Bermuda is there legally. The UK isn't going to
:10:42. > :10:48.Google to ask for it, they are going to the EU to ask for a change in the
:10:49. > :10:52.law. We must move on because we are reviewing the papers and not just
:10:53. > :10:56.talking about this. Terrible scenes in Dover, the migration crisis. This
:10:57. > :11:00.will dominate the year and many years ahead, I think. Regardless of
:11:01. > :11:03.what side of the debate you sit on, whether you're in or out, the
:11:04. > :11:06.biggest problem with this front-page story is that David Cameron is
:11:07. > :11:09.flying around Europe talking about in work benefits and here in Dover
:11:10. > :11:13.you have people sitting in prison cells and waiting to see if they
:11:14. > :11:16.will be tried for criminal or violent activity, you have 39 people
:11:17. > :11:21.in Turkey who recently died because they sank, five of them are
:11:22. > :11:25.children. The narrative doesn't match up, does it? You have violence
:11:26. > :11:34.and death, and you have David Cameron flying around talking about
:11:35. > :11:37.benefits. Ironically migration is a reason we need Europe because we
:11:38. > :11:42.have to collectively decide how we are dealing with it. Kate and I are
:11:43. > :11:48.both immigrants. I think we both understand how important it is to
:11:49. > :11:55.come to counter a country ... What gets me about the Europe debate at
:11:56. > :11:59.the moment is that it's being reduced to a debate about
:12:00. > :12:02.immigration and benefits. It's a much wider issue and it really is
:12:03. > :12:07.being driven by party political management rather than national
:12:08. > :12:13.interest. That is so wicked. On such an important issue. I would like to
:12:14. > :12:18.move to the Donald Trump story now. That is the other huge story in the
:12:19. > :12:23.last few days, Donald Trump dodged a big debate because he is too big for
:12:24. > :12:28.it now, he thinks. He claims he didn't show up because the presenter
:12:29. > :12:33.offended him last time he was on the programme, and by offended I mean
:12:34. > :12:40.she asked him factual questions about his previous comments about
:12:41. > :12:46.women. In the previous debate he got beaten up a bit by the Senator from
:12:47. > :12:54.Texas who is still trailing a bit but catching him in the polls.
:12:55. > :13:00.Tomorrow it is the Iowa primary. No one has cast a vote yet. We will see
:13:01. > :13:04.whether or not the polls at up. Just explaining, this isn't the general
:13:05. > :13:07.election we are the million with, it is Republicans, but it is
:13:08. > :13:12.Republicans who have already signed up, meeting in town halls. In the
:13:13. > :13:14.Republican and Democratic primary is you have to be a registered
:13:15. > :13:19.Republican or Democrat. We don't have a paid system, you don't have
:13:20. > :13:24.to be able to do -- you don't have to be paid to do that, but you have
:13:25. > :13:28.to go to town hall and sign yourself up. Only Republicans voting for
:13:29. > :13:34.Republicans and only Democrats voting for Democrats. Hilary Clinton
:13:35. > :13:37.is being given a run for her money by Senator Bernie Sanders in
:13:38. > :13:42.Vermont. I don't think it's because his views gain much traction, he is
:13:43. > :13:45.a very committed socialist, I think it's because he's not that likeable
:13:46. > :13:49.and the Democrats are looking for any other solution. I think this
:13:50. > :13:55.mirrors what has happened in the UK and elsewhere, it's about the
:13:56. > :13:59.outsider. It is the populist, the outsider, people going to people
:14:00. > :14:04.because they are so angry with mainstream politicians. What shocked
:14:05. > :14:07.me about this is that Trump is just such an awful character. I don't
:14:08. > :14:13.know if you have ever met him but there are number of stories in the
:14:14. > :14:19.paper, one by Selina Scott in the Daily Mail where he tried to sue
:14:20. > :14:26.choose her while she was making a film of his. " Trump is a shark, a
:14:27. > :14:35.shark has no future, just the next victim to be consumed and a shark
:14:36. > :14:38.must keep moving to live". An article by Andrew Robertson who says
:14:39. > :14:44.he sat next to his wife and mistress at the same table and said it was
:14:45. > :14:51.something that would not even have been done by the statesman who most
:14:52. > :14:58.resembles Trump in history, Benito Mussolini. The really hard question
:14:59. > :15:02.for you, is he going to get the nomination? If he does, can he
:15:03. > :15:07.become the next American president? Pundits across America have been
:15:08. > :15:15.writing him off for months and the truth is that it is possible. His
:15:16. > :15:19.future depends on his voters showing up and they are the most unlikely to
:15:20. > :15:24.show up to a cold auditorium in the dead of winter four hours to have
:15:25. > :15:29.two publicly debate Donald Trump's ideas. He's so far ahead, you're
:15:30. > :15:33.quite right talk about the Sandra 's and Clinton little battle but I
:15:34. > :15:40.think Clinton will come through, but I think on the other one Trump is so
:15:41. > :15:45.far ahead and has so captured the angry public mood, we may end up
:15:46. > :15:50.with him. We got -- he has a shot but hopefully not. So much else to
:15:51. > :15:53.talk about. Thank you both very much for that.
:15:54. > :15:56.Now to a story which features very prominently in the Sunday Times.
:15:57. > :15:59.When an apparently fit and healthy young man dies suddenly of a heart
:16:00. > :16:02.attack, the effect on his family is bound to be devastating.
:16:03. > :16:05.If it emerges that the death could - perhaps - have been prevented,
:16:06. > :16:08.the impact must surely be even worse.
:16:09. > :16:11.That's the situation faced by the family of Miles Frost,
:16:12. > :16:14.eldest son of Sir David Frost, who is in some sense
:16:15. > :16:17.still looking over us all on Sunday mornings.
:16:18. > :16:20.Miles collapsed and died while out jogging near his home last summer,
:16:21. > :16:25.And the tragedy came only two years after his father's unexpected death,
:16:26. > :16:30.Today, Miles's brothers, Wilfred and George, are going public
:16:31. > :16:33.for the first time about what happened to him.
:16:34. > :16:44.It must be a very difficult day for you. Sorry still start like this,
:16:45. > :16:49.George can you tell us what happened to your brother and your role in
:16:50. > :16:54.that? It was on a Sunday morning, and it started like any other Sunday
:16:55. > :16:58.morning. He went to do some boxing training, came back to the house and
:16:59. > :17:05.popped out for a run. He was a very fit guy. Our mother's Sunday lunch
:17:06. > :17:11.was ready at 1:30pm, the highlight of the day. Miles still wasn't home
:17:12. > :17:19.by quarter to two. I went out to look for him. On the driveway, he
:17:20. > :17:23.was there lying on the ground. There are not many things he likes more
:17:24. > :17:28.than exercise, but sunbathing was one of them. I was busy mean that's
:17:29. > :17:33.what he was doing. As I came closer it became clear that something more
:17:34. > :17:38.serious had happened. I got to him and had to do CPR and called the
:17:39. > :17:47.emergency services, who were there very quickly. About 40 minutes later
:17:48. > :17:51.we were told nothing could be done. Wilfred, the problem with Miles was
:17:52. > :17:58.a genetic heart problem. It affects one in 500 people. That's right. We
:17:59. > :18:04.didn't know at the time but he had a condition called H CM. The first
:18:05. > :18:07.couple of days afterwards you think it's a freak and random condition
:18:08. > :18:14.and nothing can be done, but it's not really, it's one in 500, 120,000
:18:15. > :18:18.people in the UK could have the condition without being aware of it.
:18:19. > :18:23.As we learnt so tragically with Miles, it can strike and lead to
:18:24. > :18:27.cardiac death at any time. When your father died it became clear that he
:18:28. > :18:32.had this condition as well, but you were never told. It didn't become
:18:33. > :18:36.clear to us, you are right. It turned out that our father had that
:18:37. > :18:39.as well. Does that mean he could have died at any time when he was
:18:40. > :18:45.running around the world interviewing Nixon? It highlights
:18:46. > :18:48.that lots of people can have it and lead normal lives, but they
:18:49. > :18:53.shouldn't be running marathons and things like that. Your dad wasn't a
:18:54. > :18:58.great marathon runner! He wasn't coming he preferred armchair
:18:59. > :19:03.exercise instead. Certainly when we knew him. But he had the condition,
:19:04. > :19:07.and it was in the postmortem but not flagged to us. We don't want to
:19:08. > :19:11.dwell on that, but it's clear the science is there, but the action
:19:12. > :19:16.isn't. The British Heart Foundation, who we partner with, estimate it
:19:17. > :19:21.will cost 1.5 million to change that and put into action the correct
:19:22. > :19:24.tests. Your messages to get the message out there to people who
:19:25. > :19:28.might have this condition but not aware of it. It might be in our
:19:29. > :19:35.family, so it doesn't to other people. Absolutely right. As a
:19:36. > :19:38.family you must be angry, presumably, that information was not
:19:39. > :19:43.passed on. Who knows what could have happened if it had been, because
:19:44. > :19:49.this condition, you do not undertake very severe exercise. We don't want
:19:50. > :19:56.to dwell on things like anger. We want to be forward-looking. It's an
:19:57. > :19:59.absolute tragedy and adds to the pain, the conditions and
:20:00. > :20:02.circumstances around it, but let's be practical and look forward and
:20:03. > :20:07.make sure other families don't have to go through this. It exemplifies
:20:08. > :20:10.the opportunity more than anything else, that something can be done.
:20:11. > :20:14.It's very straightforward as well. The science is there, it's about
:20:15. > :20:19.awareness and getting people checked. The getting out there, be
:20:20. > :20:22.optimistic and open. Your father would be very proud of you.
:20:23. > :20:25.It's been pretty benign in the wintry northern badlands
:20:26. > :20:39.Not too bad in the south and in London, but there has been action in
:20:40. > :20:44.the north. Storms everywhere. Today isn't too bad, not very pleasant,
:20:45. > :20:48.but storm Henry is on the way across the anti-, and it will reach us
:20:49. > :20:54.tomorrow evening, battering the northern parts of the UK. Batten
:20:55. > :20:59.down the hatches across Scotland, Northern Ireland. It's cloudy at the
:21:00. > :21:03.moment, a bit of a breeze with some rain coming and going through the
:21:04. > :21:10.day. A temperature contrast, cold and damp and great in the North and
:21:11. > :21:14.Scotland, and much brighter in the south, 13 or 14 degrees. Storm
:21:15. > :21:19.Henry, lots of isobars, that means first thing in the morning, the core
:21:20. > :21:24.of the storm will be some way out to sea. In the afternoon tomorrow the
:21:25. > :21:27.wind will pick up, gales across Scotland and northern areas and an
:21:28. > :21:31.amber warning from the Met office. By the time we get a Monday evening
:21:32. > :21:36.and overnight, we will have storm force winds across parts of northern
:21:37. > :21:40.Britain. And the chance we could see gusts of up to 80 mph across
:21:41. > :21:41.Scotland. It could prove disruptive and the problems could last into
:21:42. > :21:48.Tuesday morning. Last week the Government announced
:21:49. > :21:51.they'd done a tax deal with Google, one of the many American
:21:52. > :21:53.multinationals blamed for not But the ?130 million deal struck
:21:54. > :21:56.many commentators and Some have calculated it amounts
:21:57. > :22:00.to the equivalent of just 3% Is that fair on all the other
:22:01. > :22:04.businesses paying full whack, Peter Barron is Google's Vice
:22:05. > :22:16.President for Communications Just for the record, how many
:22:17. > :22:22.meetings has Google had with ministers and the HMRC in the last
:22:23. > :22:27.year? I've no idea. Many. Dust picking up on one point, you said
:22:28. > :22:32.the government announced a tax deal. We have a settlement with the HMRC.
:22:33. > :22:36.The government sets the law and the HMRC enforces it and we follow that.
:22:37. > :22:41.The government announced it and called it a great victory, that was
:22:42. > :22:47.George Osborne's phrase. I think George Osborne responded to stories
:22:48. > :22:53.in the BBC and Financial Times. What is it a tax on, your profits in the
:22:54. > :22:58.UK? This is a key point and Kate made it earlier, corporation tax is
:22:59. > :23:05.not on sales and revenues, it's on profits. Identifying profit in the
:23:06. > :23:09.UK is quite a business. That's what the discussions in the HMRC have
:23:10. > :23:13.been about. We've had a review and audit over the last six years
:23:14. > :23:17.working out what the activities, the economic activities, in the UK are.
:23:18. > :23:23.The appropriate amount is arrived at. So what was your profit in the
:23:24. > :23:28.UK over the last ten years? I can't tell you over the last ten years.
:23:29. > :23:35.That was the period of the agreement it's been estimated at ?7.2 billion.
:23:36. > :23:40.Hang on, you are talking about sales. I'm talking about profit. You
:23:41. > :23:45.are talking about profit for the overall company. That's what
:23:46. > :23:50.companies are normally taxed on. The point is, the corporation tax is
:23:51. > :23:56.levied where the economic activity that generates profits happens. The
:23:57. > :23:59.reality with Google is that the bulk of the economic activity happens in
:24:00. > :24:07.the United States. We have 17,000 software engineers in California.
:24:08. > :24:12.800 in the UK, 2300 employees in the UK, three major headquarters, a huge
:24:13. > :24:18.new Ilion pound building at King's Cross, and your average employee
:24:19. > :24:23.salary is ?106,000. Take that with a pinch of salt. It's a lot of money,
:24:24. > :24:29.people and real estate in the UK. It says that statue and permanent
:24:30. > :24:39.business in the UK, so people find it difficult to believe that ?130
:24:40. > :24:45.million over ten years isn't a fair whack. It's 130 million in
:24:46. > :24:52.additional tax, back tax from 2005 to 2015. The last reported period of
:24:53. > :25:00.18 months, we paid ?46.2 million, and an additional 130 million over
:25:01. > :25:04.the period. We have fantastic teams in the UK. Sales and marketing
:25:05. > :25:09.people, legal and finance, engineers. It's our second biggest
:25:10. > :25:13.global market. We have great teams making a contribution to the overall
:25:14. > :25:18.profits of Google. But identifying what the economic activity, and the
:25:19. > :25:21.added value of the UK is, it's a difficult business and that's what
:25:22. > :25:27.we have tried to work out with the HMRC over the year. All the
:25:28. > :25:30.discussion about so-called permanent establishment, it's not about having
:25:31. > :25:34.a big building, of course we have big buildings, we have three in
:25:35. > :25:39.London. And we are building a new one. It's not about whether we are
:25:40. > :25:45.here or not, it's about whether for tax purposes we have so-called
:25:46. > :25:50.permanent establishment. You send your tax to Ireland, why? Cast your
:25:51. > :25:55.mind back to when Google first started. It's a straightforward
:25:56. > :25:59.question. Let me explain, because you have to understand the structure
:26:00. > :26:02.of Google. It was simple when Google existed just in California and
:26:03. > :26:07.people were buying advertising from Google, and they would have
:26:08. > :26:11.contracts with Google and the tax would be paid in the United States.
:26:12. > :26:14.When we took the business International in the early 2000 is,
:26:15. > :26:22.we set up the European headquarters in Dublin, for all kinds of reasons.
:26:23. > :26:25.Governments put tax incentives in place to attract technology
:26:26. > :26:31.companies to their shores. The British government, the Dutch
:26:32. > :26:33.government, it's a common practice. When anybody buys advertising from
:26:34. > :26:42.Google in Europe, they buy it from Dublin. Google UK's relationship in
:26:43. > :26:49.that is slightly different. What Google UK does, is contract our
:26:50. > :26:57.services to the parent company, to Google Ireland. Why is that? Because
:26:58. > :27:02.we are a subsidiary. If we are in France, Germany, Italy, those
:27:03. > :27:07.Googles our subsidiaries and sell, contract their services to Google
:27:08. > :27:12.Ireland and Google incorporated. That accounts for their revenue. The
:27:13. > :27:18.revenue for Google UK, about ?1 billion. Barney Jones, your
:27:19. > :27:21.whistle-blower, said that Google UK were closing deals in large
:27:22. > :27:26.quantities in the UK, meaning they should have been taxed on them here,
:27:27. > :27:33.not in Ireland. We are talking about the period 2005 to 2014, the period
:27:34. > :27:37.of the HMRC review. Barney Jones left Google in 2006, and the
:27:38. > :27:43.business was very different. This was looked at in the course of the
:27:44. > :27:48.six-year review by HMRC. The e-mails Barney Jones gave to Margaret Hodge,
:27:49. > :27:52.and there was the interview with Barney Jones, and that was part of
:27:53. > :27:56.the review and has been dealt with in detail. Wouldn't this be easier
:27:57. > :28:00.to talk about if we let sunlight on this, if we could see the basis on
:28:01. > :28:04.which the negotiation was dealt with. Who went to who, how did the
:28:05. > :28:07.process start, but we should surely know more about the actual
:28:08. > :28:13.negotiations and how they were conducted. We operate under the
:28:14. > :28:18.principles of tax confidentiality. If you look at the accounts reported
:28:19. > :28:25.last week, you can see a bit of detail on what has been agreed. As
:28:26. > :28:31.we mentioned, there has been 130 million in terms of back tax. For
:28:32. > :28:37.the last year, 46.2 million, broken down, of which 13.8 million is under
:28:38. > :28:41.this new mechanism. George Osborne and the Treasury have been
:28:42. > :28:46.toughening up the rules. That has fed into the process. Going back to
:28:47. > :28:49.Margaret Hodge, she has campaigned on this for a long time and wants to
:28:50. > :28:57.change the way we tax things around the world. But it cuts both ways.
:28:58. > :29:01.Leaving that for one second. Is it true the ?130 million tax deal...
:29:02. > :29:08.It's not a deal, it's a settlement. It's not a deal with the government.
:29:09. > :29:14.It's not a sweetheart deal. This money is less money than Google
:29:15. > :29:17.spends on chicken for employees in its restaurants. I read that in the
:29:18. > :29:24.course of the week and I must admit that I smiled. The money goes from
:29:25. > :29:29.Ireland, ultimately to Bermuda. Tomorrow you will be announcing a 30
:29:30. > :29:34.billion pound tax mounted in Bermuda, it's so big we could almost
:29:35. > :29:37.see it from here. It's a massive amount of money for stop what
:29:38. > :29:43.proportion of that comes from the UK? What I have to say about
:29:44. > :29:49.Bermuda, and I don't have the answer at my fingertips, but I have to say
:29:50. > :29:54.about 10% of global revenues come from the UK. It's about 3 billion
:29:55. > :30:03.then? About 3 billion of British profits at in Bermuda? It's very
:30:04. > :30:06.important to make clear that the Bermuda arrangement has no bearing
:30:07. > :30:11.on the amount of tax we pay in the UK? Can that really be so? ?3
:30:12. > :30:17.billion of British profits sat in Bermuda on a low or no tax regime,
:30:18. > :30:20.and cannot not have bearing on those people who say Google is simply not
:30:21. > :30:26.paying its fair share of taxes to British society?
:30:27. > :30:36.It doesn't have a relationship with the taxes we pay in the UK. The
:30:37. > :30:40.Bermuda structure is there because of the way that America deals with
:30:41. > :30:46.its taxation of global companies, it leads to a very high incentive to
:30:47. > :30:50.keep profits... This is all about avoiding tax, we both understand
:30:51. > :30:54.that. That is the purpose of it. What do you say to all of those
:30:55. > :30:59.smaller companies, their employees or their bosses who are watching
:31:00. > :31:05.this programme saying... This is the day that people have to finalise
:31:06. > :31:09.their tax returns by," I can't go to HMRC and discuss my tax affairs, I
:31:10. > :31:17.can't get a 3% deal, it's really unfair that Google can". In the UK
:31:18. > :31:22.we paid corporation tax and there is no sweetheart deal, the same tax
:31:23. > :31:27.rate as everyone else. You keep coming back to this point about
:31:28. > :31:32.sales. We are taxed as corporation tax dictates on the economic
:31:33. > :31:41.activities of Google UK. So we pay corporation tax in the UK at 20% and
:31:42. > :31:47.globally our effective tax rate over the last five years or so is round
:31:48. > :31:58.about 20%, which is very close to the UK rate and very close to the
:31:59. > :32:02.OECD average. Google's slogan was "Don't be evil". Do you think they
:32:03. > :32:11.have lived up to it? We always try to do the right thing. The reality
:32:12. > :32:17.tax matters is that the Government's laws are in place, and we follow
:32:18. > :32:21.those laws. If the laws change, and Margaret has made a good case for
:32:22. > :32:25.changing them, and the OECD process is the process of trying to figure
:32:26. > :32:29.out new ways of doing tax internationally, if the laws change
:32:30. > :32:38.of course we would follow it. This has been terribly damaging for
:32:39. > :32:43.Google, reputation wise and so on. Would you like to see a more
:32:44. > :32:47.transparent system? We would and we have spoken about this in the past.
:32:48. > :32:52.We think that the international tax system could do with reform, it has
:32:53. > :32:55.been around since the 1920s. We could do with more clarity. We would
:32:56. > :32:57.like to be seen to be paying the right amount. Peter, thank you for
:32:58. > :33:00.joining us. The systematic abuse of children
:33:01. > :33:03.by Catholic clergy in America was a scandal that really
:33:04. > :33:05.came to public attention when the Boston Globe broke
:33:06. > :33:07.the story 15 years ago. Spotlight, an Oscar-nominated
:33:08. > :33:13.film, recreates that investigation, carried out
:33:14. > :33:15.by old school reporters. Recently, I spoke to Michael Keaton
:33:16. > :33:18.who plays a good journalist caught between his Catholic faith
:33:19. > :33:20.and a Boston establishment trying We have twe stories here,
:33:21. > :33:26.a story about degenerate clergy, and a story about a bunch
:33:27. > :33:30.of lawyers turning child-abuse I wonder, in your research
:33:31. > :33:37.for this great film, what do you think makes
:33:38. > :33:41.great journalism? Tenacity, an ability to listen,
:33:42. > :33:43.determination, focus, Coincidently, if you want to be
:33:44. > :33:50.a good actor, You have to be Absolutely, and it's the distinction
:33:51. > :33:56.therefore between what's tawdry, vivid and trivial on one side,
:33:57. > :33:58.and what really matters And in this film, you are
:33:59. > :34:04.a newspaper boss at the Globe who's It's particularly difficult
:34:05. > :34:07.because Boston is a Catholic town. And therefore there is a moral
:34:08. > :34:12.problem about how far you go You have to give Catholics,
:34:13. > :34:17.some Catholics - especially younger Catholics - give them
:34:18. > :34:22.the credit in this case, Catholics exposed their own,
:34:23. > :34:26.as you can say, stood up and said, We've got cover-up stories on 70
:34:27. > :34:36.priests, but the bosses will not run it unless I come up
:34:37. > :34:39.with information from your side. Everybody knew something
:34:40. > :34:53.was going on, and nobody Yeah, I helped defend the scumbags,
:34:54. > :35:01.but that's my job, Robbie. Powerful people are people
:35:02. > :35:09.who are in positions of power, who tend to want to take advantage
:35:10. > :35:14.of people less powerful. I keep talking about what's
:35:15. > :35:18.going on, and this movie is about the power of the Boston
:35:19. > :35:25.diocese, and Cardinal Law, but it's about the institution,
:35:26. > :35:27.the Catholic Church. And we'll print that
:35:28. > :35:44.story when we get it, No, I'm not going to
:35:45. > :35:47.rush this story, Mike. If we don't rush to print,
:35:48. > :35:51.somebody else will find these Joe Quimby from The Herald
:35:52. > :35:55.was at the freaking courthouse. What?!
:35:56. > :35:57.Why are we hesitating? You mentioned the Vatican just now,
:35:58. > :36:00.I just wondered what Apparently they thought
:36:01. > :36:03.the movie was good, actually. I don't know that the Pope,
:36:04. > :36:06.who I actually like, I would be shocked if he goes
:36:07. > :36:10.after this the way he should go I don't know, they haven't come
:36:11. > :36:15.out and there hasn't In fact they thought
:36:16. > :36:20.the movie was good. Barron told us to get
:36:21. > :36:22.Law, this is Law. That's the only thing
:36:23. > :36:27.that'll put an end to this. Let's take it up to Ben
:36:28. > :36:30.and let him decide. We'll take it to Ben
:36:31. > :36:32.when I say it's time. They knew, and they let
:36:33. > :36:39.it happen, to kids. It could have been you,
:36:40. > :36:43.it could have been me, We've got to nail these scumbags,
:36:44. > :36:47.show people that nobody can get Not a priest, or a cardinal,
:36:48. > :36:51.or a freaking Pope. I can't finish without asking
:36:52. > :36:54.you about the Oscars this time. There has been this huge controversy
:36:55. > :36:57.about not enough black actors You can't discuss something
:36:58. > :37:03.like this in sound bites, But that's a tiny
:37:04. > :37:12.piece of the issue. The issue of racism
:37:13. > :37:15.is so much deeper and bigger. Let's take it on a bit
:37:16. > :37:17.in that sense. Do you think the problem with race
:37:18. > :37:20.is getting worse in America, But I would never say overall,
:37:21. > :37:25.because in some ways People talk about the South,
:37:26. > :37:38.but Boston was a really racist city. This country here has
:37:39. > :37:40.racism, plenty of it. I think it's always a situation
:37:41. > :37:48.of the disenfranchised, who has the power and who
:37:49. > :37:51.doesn't have the power? Which is what this film
:37:52. > :37:53.is about in a sense. How did the power not go and spread
:37:54. > :37:59.out, why has it not spread out? You're right, that's what this is,
:38:00. > :38:02.and even on an individual basis, it's one person's power, a priest,
:38:03. > :38:04.controlling people who don't We will be talking about power and
:38:05. > :38:20.races and later on. And Spotlight will be one of the big
:38:21. > :38:23.contenders at the Oscars It's in cinemas on
:38:24. > :38:26.general release now. We may be only hours
:38:27. > :38:28.away from the draft deal between David Cameron and the rest
:38:29. > :38:31.of the EU on the terms of the negotiation which will fire
:38:32. > :38:34.the starting gun for our in-out For those who want to leave the EU,
:38:35. > :38:37.the current polling Luke Johnson is a leading business
:38:38. > :38:41.advocate for Vote Leave - one of the competing
:38:42. > :38:48.Brexit campaigns. Before we get onto that, you've been
:38:49. > :38:53.a big critic of Google. What did you make of what Peter Barron was saying
:38:54. > :38:57.just now? I thought it was very confusing and it confirmed to me
:38:58. > :39:01.that Google organises its affairs so as to avoid tax. Considering the
:39:02. > :39:05.chairman of Google claims they operate to the highest ethical
:39:06. > :39:10.standards, I find that hypocritical. As somebody who runs many businesses
:39:11. > :39:14.in the UK paying for that corporation tax and everything, what
:39:15. > :39:18.do you think of the idea that corporation tax itself has become
:39:19. > :39:21.unfit for purpose and we need a thorough revision of business
:39:22. > :39:26.taxation in this country? I agree with that and I think our 17,000
:39:27. > :39:31.page tax code is far too long and complex, it creates these loopholes.
:39:32. > :39:34.I think the entire thing needs rethinking and corporation tax
:39:35. > :39:39.doesn't work as it's currently structured. David Cameron has his
:39:40. > :39:46.negotiations with Mr Tusk later today and the briefing is that he's
:39:47. > :39:50.trying to get an emergency brake on benefits for migrants, is it the
:39:51. > :39:56.kind of breakthrough that would make you change your mind about leaving
:39:57. > :39:59.the EU? No, I think it is relatively trivial and I think the negotiations
:40:00. > :40:02.of supposedly reforms that Cameron is attempting at the moment are
:40:03. > :40:08.effectively condescending to us because they are a device, they are
:40:09. > :40:13.not going to lead to much change and I fear it's not going to address the
:40:14. > :40:18.fundamental issues such as ending ever closer union that the EU is
:40:19. > :40:22.committed to. The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, has
:40:23. > :40:26.said that leaving the EU would cause a flight of capital, causing
:40:27. > :40:32.interest rates to go up and economic chaos in this country. Why is he
:40:33. > :40:36.wrong? A few years ago when there was debate about whether we should
:40:37. > :40:41.join the euro, those who said sterling was finished and if we
:40:42. > :40:47.didn't join Britain's economy was doomed, they were utterly wrong. I
:40:48. > :40:51.think the same voices are here now and we should not talk down
:40:52. > :40:55.Britain's national interests. The city is the leading financial centre
:40:56. > :40:59.in the world. We have a great economic future just like countries
:41:00. > :41:04.nor Mike Norway and Switzerland enjoy. Are you concerned that David
:41:05. > :41:15.Cameron is trying to bounce the country into an early referendum, in
:41:16. > :41:19.June? In a way the Brexit campaign is being pushed to the side by the
:41:20. > :41:23.steam roller of the establishment. The reason we're having a referendum
:41:24. > :41:26.is because this is a democracy and I think it's important that people are
:41:27. > :41:29.informed and besides themselves whether they think the current
:41:30. > :41:34.system works, whether it's good for our economy and culture and society
:41:35. > :41:37.or whether we deserved the freedom and independence of continuing
:41:38. > :41:41.successfully outside the EU. You have said in the past one of the
:41:42. > :41:46.problems you have as an employer is that too many of your employees are
:41:47. > :41:50.amateur lawyers with an inflated sense of their own burgeoning
:41:51. > :41:54.rights. A lot of people would say to the point of the EU is that it has
:41:55. > :41:58.given workers more rights and that is a good thing. What is important
:41:59. > :42:03.in life is that people get good jobs and generally speaking the EU has
:42:04. > :42:07.been a job destruction machine. The fact that many countries in the EU
:42:08. > :42:11.have higher levels of unemployment is demonstration that the EU is not
:42:12. > :42:15.necessarily very effective at creating jobs, and this country is.
:42:16. > :42:21.We're seeing the collapse of the Schengen agreement, borders going
:42:22. > :42:26.all the way up inside the EU, do you think we're seeing the end of the
:42:27. > :42:31.EU? I think it could break up and new collaborations could then
:42:32. > :42:34.arrive. We will have to see. It is facing the possible departure of
:42:35. > :42:38.Britain and the collapse of the Schengen agreement, the biggest
:42:39. > :42:43.threats to its existence for many years. On the Brexit side there are
:42:44. > :42:47.now three competing campaigns. This is your one chance probably in your
:42:48. > :42:53.lifetime and my lifetime to get Britain out of the EU, isn't it
:42:54. > :43:01.totally depressing that the Brexit side is fighting amongst it sells?
:43:02. > :43:09.There is talk of a coup in the Dominic Cummings camp. I am merely
:43:10. > :43:15.an individual with my personal views about the economy and the EU. I
:43:16. > :43:20.think we should not get involved in the politics of which campaign is
:43:21. > :43:25.which and focus on if the EU is good for Britain or not. You've created a
:43:26. > :43:30.lot of jobs in your time through pizza express and other businesses.
:43:31. > :43:35.RU convinced that outside the EU you would be able to create more jobs
:43:36. > :43:40.than if we stayed in? I'm convinced that Britain is a very viable
:43:41. > :43:45.economy and we attract record levels of investment. We export less to the
:43:46. > :43:50.EU than they export to us. They need us and I think we will have a very
:43:51. > :43:56.viable and successful time outside the EU. To win this battle what is
:43:57. > :44:02.most important? Is it to talk about immigration and migration or our
:44:03. > :44:05.economic future outside the EU? I think all aspects matter and what is
:44:06. > :44:09.good about the referendum is that it gives a chance for both sides to set
:44:10. > :44:15.up their camps and explain to the public what the benefits and
:44:16. > :44:19.deficits of the EU are, and decide for themselves. I think democracy in
:44:20. > :44:23.action is very healthy. Back now to the big story of the day.
:44:24. > :44:25.Sajid Javid, as the Buiness Secretary, speaks for hundreds
:44:26. > :44:27.of thousands of small businesses who, unlike Google,
:44:28. > :44:29.don't get the chance to have lots of private meetings
:44:30. > :44:32.with the taxman to negotiate how much tax they'll pay.
:44:33. > :44:39.In a sense that is the central point. This is unfair to all the
:44:40. > :44:44.smaller companies who can't do what Google has done. Good morning. I
:44:45. > :44:47.speak with thousands of companies, small and medium size as well is of
:44:48. > :44:52.course large companies. There is a sense of injustice with what they
:44:53. > :44:55.seek. They look at this and say look, I don't operate multiple
:44:56. > :45:00.jurisdictions around the world, I can't shift profits around, what
:45:01. > :45:04.about me? Where is the level playing field? I share that sense of
:45:05. > :45:09.unfairness that exists. I think it is much wider than that. I think
:45:10. > :45:12.there is a concern among many people about capitalism itself. They look
:45:13. > :45:23.at companies cheating emissions tests or banks rigging Libor rates.
:45:24. > :45:27.I still believe it's the best way to raise living standards, but this is
:45:28. > :45:31.a challenge. It wasn't a glorious moment when people look at these
:45:32. > :45:36.issues but it is important to talk about what the government is doing.
:45:37. > :45:42.You were taught on about Google itself and I'm not privy to its own
:45:43. > :45:46.tax affairs, that is for HMRC, these matters are confidential, but the
:45:47. > :45:47.Government has taken a huge amount of action to deal with this kind of
:45:48. > :45:57.problem. When we see this ?30 billion tax
:45:58. > :46:03.mountain sat in Bermuda, of which 3 billion could be generated in
:46:04. > :46:06.Britain, it doesn't reflect well. On the numbers themselves, it's a
:46:07. > :46:11.complex issue, which ever large company you talk about. We don't
:46:12. > :46:17.know the details, and the viewers don't, it's for HMRC. That's part of
:46:18. > :46:21.the trouble, it is not transparent. These details deals between very
:46:22. > :46:26.powerful companies. A lot of people think that Google chance fixes a lot
:46:27. > :46:29.of this because they are so trendy, powerful and glossy, that ministers
:46:30. > :46:34.and civil servants and possibly even tax officials are slightly in awe of
:46:35. > :46:40.them. I don't think that's the case at all. Looking at the action the
:46:41. > :46:44.government has taken. Since 2010 we have posed 40 tax loopholes which
:46:45. > :46:51.has raised over ?12 billion in the last five years. We have led the way
:46:52. > :46:54.in the G20 and OECD to have more tax transparency internationally,
:46:55. > :46:57.required by signing international exchange agreements with
:46:58. > :47:00.international partners, by changing the rules. We have led the way in
:47:01. > :47:05.changing the rules and asked other countries to do so, they are doing
:47:06. > :47:10.that. These measures will bring results. Is it true, as the Observer
:47:11. > :47:14.reports this morning, that the government defends Bermuda as a tax
:47:15. > :47:20.haven? I don think that's the case at all. The British government has
:47:21. > :47:24.led the way for international tax transparency, whether it is Bermuda
:47:25. > :47:28.or any other place. We insisted on it, when George Osborne lead this
:47:29. > :47:32.issue at the G20, he made a stronger case than anyone else on this issue
:47:33. > :47:38.and we are leading the way. I do accept there is more work to do,
:47:39. > :47:41.with our international partners, and work-out more ways to stop large
:47:42. > :47:45.multinational companies from being able to shift profit so easily.
:47:46. > :47:53.There's still an incense of injustice. Was this ?130 million
:47:54. > :47:58.deal with Google a great success? The way in which it was a success is
:47:59. > :48:03.that it helps change behaviour. When other large companies look at this,
:48:04. > :48:07.and they see that HMRC, no matter how long it takes, and this
:48:08. > :48:10.particular investigation took five or six years, HMRC will not give up
:48:11. > :48:17.and they will come after you if they feel you are not paying your fair
:48:18. > :48:20.share. It doesn't feel like a reflective amount of money. But it
:48:21. > :48:27.will change behaviour and that's important as significant. We will
:48:28. > :48:31.see. Facebook, a huge company, paying ?4300 in tax in Britain this
:48:32. > :48:36.year. Extraordinary. I don't know the numbers for Facebook and Google.
:48:37. > :48:42.But it would be ridiculous. I don't know the numbers and detail.
:48:43. > :48:46.Facebook is not a small company, 4300 and something pounds last year.
:48:47. > :48:51.I think you refer to corporation tax. Remember that all these
:48:52. > :48:56.companies, Google and Facebook, they also paid VAT and national insurance
:48:57. > :49:00.and other taxes in Britain. It's unfair to say that is the only tax
:49:01. > :49:04.they paid in Britain. But you are right to point out that when it
:49:05. > :49:08.comes to corporation tax, a lot of what has been done, but nor needs to
:49:09. > :49:13.be done. Corporation tax in another story today, six of the ten biggest
:49:14. > :49:17.companies in the UK last year paid no corporation tax at all. Isn't
:49:18. > :49:21.corporation tax no longer fit for purpose? I think Nigel Lawson has
:49:22. > :49:29.said this in the last couple of days. What I think is that it is
:49:30. > :49:31.important to recognise that businesses have changed dramatically
:49:32. > :49:35.in the last couple of decades. Looking at the tax declaration
:49:36. > :49:39.treaties that Britain has with other countries, most of them have been
:49:40. > :49:47.signed in the 1920s. Well out of date. Not corporation tax, but tax
:49:48. > :49:50.treaties, so the world of business has changed dramatically. It's right
:49:51. > :49:54.that in Britain, alongside international partners, we look at
:49:55. > :49:57.ways to modernise tax so we can collect it fairly from small and
:49:58. > :50:04.large businesses alike. That's what the work we are doing is geared at,
:50:05. > :50:09.whether it's with the OECD, or at home. We have a review of business
:50:10. > :50:13.rates looking at major tax. Let's not move on to business rates, if
:50:14. > :50:18.you don't mind. What is the case against a flat rate of relatively
:50:19. > :50:21.modest sales tax, as Nigel Lawson advocates and many other countries
:50:22. > :50:26.around the world use. It can't be dodged, it is clear and transparent
:50:27. > :50:31.and everybody has to pay it. We do have a sales tax, we have VAT. It's
:50:32. > :50:35.not as though we don't have such attacks. In many ways it works, but
:50:36. > :50:41.like many countries, we have a number of different taxes. But
:50:42. > :50:44.whether it's VAT, corporation tax, business rates, whatever it is, it's
:50:45. > :50:49.important to keep them under review and decide whether they are fit for
:50:50. > :50:52.purpose. Do you think the Google row means the government has to think
:50:53. > :50:55.about business taxation more generally? The government has been
:50:56. > :51:00.thinking about business taxation since they came in in 2010, under
:51:01. > :51:05.this coalition and at the this government. That's why there have
:51:06. > :51:11.been so many changes. 40 of Labour's tax loopholes have been closed. And
:51:12. > :51:15.as the others are brought to our attention, we are addressing them.
:51:16. > :51:20.But billions are still being moved to Ireland and Bermuda. It's not an
:51:21. > :51:24.attractive picture for small businesses who can't do this
:51:25. > :51:28.themselves. That's why we have to do more work with our international
:51:29. > :51:32.partners, and I'm proud Britain is leading the way. The other big story
:51:33. > :51:38.of the day, the announcement you will make all British universities
:51:39. > :51:42.publish details of the breakdown of ethnic groups who apply and get
:51:43. > :51:49.places, and also socioeconomic groups as well. Why are you doing
:51:50. > :51:54.this? It's about racial equality. As a British person of ethnic minority
:51:55. > :51:58.background, I think Britain is the most tolerant country in the world
:51:59. > :52:05.when it comes to racial issues. But that doesn't mean to say there isn't
:52:06. > :52:09.more we can't do. More black British people in prison than in top
:52:10. > :52:14.universities. And it seems if you are a young black man, you will get
:52:15. > :52:18.a longer sentence on average for the same crime against a young white
:52:19. > :52:21.man. We need to look at that. On that particular issue I'm proud we
:52:22. > :52:26.are getting David Lammy to look at that, he is eminently qualified to
:52:27. > :52:31.look at that, not just as an MP and minister, but as a former barrister.
:52:32. > :52:38.There are still issues to deal with. When I was a young man at school, I
:52:39. > :52:46.was called lackey in the playground and was punched because of my
:52:47. > :52:52.colour. The Prime Minister needs to do more, and we are doing with this
:52:53. > :52:57.university scheme, how can we get young black people into
:52:58. > :53:00.universities. We need to do more. What's the point in making
:53:01. > :53:06.universities publish the statistics if there is no carrot or stick?
:53:07. > :53:09.Tomorrow we will have a roundtable with universities and schools to
:53:10. > :53:14.talk about the measures they are taking. Let's accept there is
:53:15. > :53:18.progress. But not enough. A number came out recently that showed that
:53:19. > :53:28.at Oxford, for example, they had 27 black men and women attend 2014 out
:53:29. > :53:34.of a total pool of thousands. It was about 1%. Oxford say they get the
:53:35. > :53:39.right people they can with the right qualifications, but the problem is
:53:40. > :53:41.with the schools. There are not enough people from working class
:53:42. > :53:46.backgrounds, white and ethnic minority backgrounds, who are
:53:47. > :53:50.getting these qualifications. I accept there is an issue. And that's
:53:51. > :53:53.why we have more reform is going through the educational system with
:53:54. > :53:57.more children going to good and outstanding schools than ever
:53:58. > :54:02.before. That's not the only reason. There's also what I call unconscious
:54:03. > :54:05.bias. I'm not saying people set out to be racist, of course not, but
:54:06. > :54:12.there will be instances where people have certain models or images in
:54:13. > :54:18.their mind. How about using phrases like a bunch of migrants? That's a
:54:19. > :54:21.separate issue about Labour's open-door immigration policy. That's
:54:22. > :54:26.not what we are talking about here, which is how can we get more black,
:54:27. > :54:31.minority and ethnic minority people into university? When I went to
:54:32. > :54:34.university, I think I noticed three or four people from ethnic minority
:54:35. > :54:39.background. There has been progress but there's more to do. In essence
:54:40. > :54:43.this is about saying that if universities publish the small
:54:44. > :54:48.numbers black people and people from working class communities get into
:54:49. > :54:53.their portals, that will so embarrassed them, there will be
:54:54. > :54:58.further change. It will help. Transparency always helps, but more
:54:59. > :55:01.measures are required. I want to sit down with universities and find out
:55:02. > :55:06.what more can be done and help them achieve that. Sajid Javid, thank you
:55:07. > :55:10.for talking to us. Over to Roger for the news headlines.
:55:11. > :55:15.It's been announced this morning that broadcaster Sir Terry Wogan has
:55:16. > :55:21.died this morning at the age of 77. His family said he had fought a
:55:22. > :55:24.short and brave battle with cancer. The BBC director-general Tony Hall
:55:25. > :55:31.described Terry Wogan as a national dress who, for 50 years, had graced
:55:32. > :55:36.to radio and television with his warmth, wit and personality. --
:55:37. > :55:41.National treasure. Millions came to feel he was their own special
:55:42. > :55:44.friend. A senior representative of Google has defended the company's
:55:45. > :55:50.tax arrangements. It recently reached an agreement with the tax
:55:51. > :55:54.authorities here to pay ?130 million in back taxes for the past ten
:55:55. > :55:56.years. The Vice President for communications and public affairs
:55:57. > :56:02.told this programme it was very difficult to identify how much
:56:03. > :56:05.profit Google makes in the UK. Corporation tax is levied where the
:56:06. > :56:10.international activity that generates profits happens. The
:56:11. > :56:15.reality with Google is that the bulk of that economic activity happens in
:56:16. > :56:19.the United States. The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock. Let's
:56:20. > :56:23.have a look at what's coming up immediately after this programme.
:56:24. > :56:33.We will be live from Bradford at ten when we ask a very simple question,
:56:34. > :56:35.do we need a British Islam? We have politicians, theologians and
:56:36. > :56:38.scholars here to debate it. Andrew Neil will be here in an hour
:56:39. > :56:43.with the Sunday Politics with guests including the Shadow
:56:44. > :56:44.Chancellor, John McDonnell. We'll leave you now
:56:45. > :56:48.with Rhiannon Giddens, from her Grammy-nominated solo
:56:49. > :56:51.album, this is Angel City.