:00:00. > :00:00.This is the week when David Cameron hopes he finally gets his deal
:00:07. > :00:10.with Brussels and he can fire the starting gun for our in/out
:00:11. > :00:16.For the first time in more than 40 years, you and I get our chance
:00:17. > :00:39.the Cabinet Minister at the heart of all of this,
:00:40. > :00:41.the Foreign Secretary Phillp Hammond,
:00:42. > :00:45.and one of Labour's leading Eurosceptics, Gisela Stuart.
:00:46. > :00:48.Very sadly, this week also saw the announcement
:00:49. > :00:51.that the Independent was to cease publication as a newspaper.
:00:52. > :01:01.Its last editor, Amol Rajan, is here.
:01:02. > :01:04.Later on, we're going right back to the orgins of the EU,
:01:05. > :01:07.looking at a new play about two great but controversial Frenchmen -
:01:08. > :01:10.General De Gaulle and Marshall Petain -
:01:11. > :01:15.with actors Tom Conti and Laurence Fox.
:01:16. > :01:18.Now, if I was really cool, I would have picked Laura Mvula
:01:19. > :01:25.I am so not but, luckily, other members of the team are.
:01:26. > :01:36.# When your head is heavy, low, low, low #.
:01:37. > :01:38.And joining Amol Rajan in our paper review,
:01:39. > :01:40.another former editor, Sir Simon Jenkins,
:01:41. > :01:45.and the Sun star columnist Jane Moore.
:01:46. > :01:52.But first, the news with Steph McGovern.
:01:53. > :01:56.Washington has urged Turkey to halt attacks on Kurdish targets
:01:57. > :01:59.in northern Syria, amid fears the shelling will complicate efforts
:02:00. > :02:03.Turkey says it will send ground forces into Syria if an agreement
:02:04. > :02:05.for an end to hostilities doesn't succeed.
:02:06. > :02:08.Russia has rejected calls to change its policy of air strikes,
:02:09. > :02:12.with the West accusing Moscow of targeting civilians.
:02:13. > :02:20.It had been hoped that a ceasefire could be under way in just a few
:02:21. > :02:22.days' time but there's no sign of hostilities winding down.
:02:23. > :02:28.In northern Syria, a new fight opened up, with Turkish tanks firing
:02:29. > :02:34.across the border at these positions held by Kurdish fighters.
:02:35. > :02:37.Turkey's Prime Minister said his country had retaliated
:02:38. > :02:40.because its own forces had come under fire.
:02:41. > :02:45.He said the Kurdish militia should immediately withdraw
:02:46. > :02:53.Turkey's hosting a number of Nato aircraft, targeting so-called
:02:54. > :02:55.It's now been confirmed that Saudi Arabian planes will also
:02:56. > :02:59.There's even talk of Turkey and Saudi Arabia launching a ground
:03:00. > :03:05.At an international security conference in Munich,
:03:06. > :03:08.the Russian Foreign Minister said the ceasefire was slightly more
:03:09. > :03:14.The British Foreign Minister was even more pessimistic.
:03:15. > :03:17.It sounds like a little less than 50%.
:03:18. > :03:24.I was going to say, I don't speak Russian but I was judging
:03:25. > :03:28.Russia is talking of a new Cold War with the West.
:03:29. > :03:31.It says its support for the Syrian government has
:03:32. > :03:42.You shouldn't demonise anyone except terrorists in Syria
:03:43. > :03:44.and that the humanitarian issues must be resolved
:03:45. > :03:49.And there is some sign of that happening.
:03:50. > :03:51.These Red Crescent trucks were heading for a suburb
:03:52. > :03:56.There's hope that if the fighting does stop in some areas,
:03:57. > :04:03.aid will get through to more besieged towns.
:04:04. > :04:05.The Foreign Office says it's investigating reports that two
:04:06. > :04:10.British men have been arrested in Greece carrying
:04:11. > :04:13.Greek officials said the men, both in their 20s
:04:14. > :04:15.and said to be Iraqi born, were detained last night
:04:16. > :04:20.They were said to be driving a trailer carrying more than a dozen
:04:21. > :04:26.The longest-serving judge on the US Supreme Court has died suddenly
:04:27. > :04:31.Antonin Scalia had been in position since he was appointed
:04:32. > :04:37.President Obama says he will now nominate a replacement.
:04:38. > :04:40.His choice could influence the political balance of the court
:04:41. > :04:45.and its future decisions in key areas of federal law.
:04:46. > :04:48.It's understood that the Education Secretary Nicky Morgan is looking
:04:49. > :04:51.to America for the next head of England's schools inspectorate
:04:52. > :04:55.It's thought several Americans are to be approached about replacing
:04:56. > :04:58.Sir Michael Wilshaw, who will stand down as chief
:04:59. > :05:06.The Bafta film awards take place in London this evening.
:05:07. > :05:08.Idris Elba, Eddie Redmayne, Dame Maggie Smith and Kate Winslet
:05:09. > :05:11.are among the British stars hoping to win.
:05:12. > :05:14.Eddie Redmayne could become a back-to-back Best Actor winner
:05:15. > :05:20.Brie Larson is tipped to win Best Actress for her part
:05:21. > :05:26.I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.
:05:27. > :05:38.All the real stars are in this studio today. So to the front pages
:05:39. > :05:41.and if there's one thing, its editors desperately trying to
:05:42. > :05:46.persuade their apathetic readers that the EU referendum is jolly
:05:47. > :05:51.exciting stop the bus, the Sunday Times warns, cheap flights to Europe
:05:52. > :05:57.are threat if we beat the EU. The Sunday Express, EU declares war on
:05:58. > :06:02.drivers. The Mail on Sunday has a fun story here. Angela Merkel's
:06:03. > :06:07.number two says that Britain cannot survive outside the EU. That's a
:06:08. > :06:10.story designed to drive all patriotically British people into
:06:11. > :06:15.insane rage. Then there's the Observer talking about the health
:06:16. > :06:19.crisis and Jeremy Corbyn is going to make a bold speech very shortly, in
:06:20. > :06:25.which he is going to be pro-immigration against the theme,
:06:26. > :06:31.the mood of the country. Finally, public faith in Cameron drops.
:06:32. > :06:34.People don't believe any longer he is going to get the deal we need for
:06:35. > :06:37.the EU. We will talk a lot about that through the rest of the
:06:38. > :06:41.programme, including in the paper review. Welcome to you all. We will
:06:42. > :06:46.be talking about the Independent in a bit but we want to talk about
:06:47. > :06:50.Cameron's secret negotiations. It is one of these classic political
:06:51. > :06:55.stories. Tim Shipman is the brilliant political editor of the
:06:56. > :06:58.Sunday Times. Oliver let win, one of David Cameron's key allies has on
:06:59. > :07:01.the record said he wants to stay in Europe but lots of people have told
:07:02. > :07:07.Tim Shipman that secretly Oliver Leopard wants to leave. We are
:07:08. > :07:10.getting this irreconcilable difference within the Cabinet. Lots
:07:11. > :07:14.of people saying they want to be out and lots of people saying they want
:07:15. > :07:16.to be in. The question is whether or not Cameron is going to let the
:07:17. > :07:21.people who want to be out speak. He's going to Brussels. When he
:07:22. > :07:25.comes back, he wants a 48-hour silent period where the people that
:07:26. > :07:29.are backing out, like Priti Patel, John Whittingdale and Iain Duncan
:07:30. > :07:33.Smith, are going to be began. Meanwhile, we got people like the
:07:34. > :07:37.CEO of easyJet saying we got to stay in the EU. The big problem people
:07:38. > :07:41.who want to stay in have had is that they've failed to understand that
:07:42. > :07:45.lots of people CPU is basically this elite project and getting people
:07:46. > :07:48.like the former chairman of Marks Spencer and the CEO of easyJet isn't
:07:49. > :07:58.going to persuade the man living in Huddersfield that the EU is for him.
:07:59. > :08:02.There is this amazing emerging divide which is going to be
:08:03. > :08:06.irreconcilable. The ones we don't know about, Michael Gove Boris
:08:07. > :08:10.Johnson. I think Gomis leaving out and Boris is moving in. The first
:08:11. > :08:14.paragraph he says, Oliver let Winn says Black is black and then right
:08:15. > :08:22.at the end of the piece in quotes, "I think black is white". This is
:08:23. > :08:26.the issue with Europe. No one actually knows. There is no
:08:27. > :08:30.blueprint for a country moving the EU. It seems everybody is flailing
:08:31. > :08:34.around in the breeze with their opinions on whether it's going to be
:08:35. > :08:38.good or bad to leave. Meanwhile, the grassroots, Simon, are still... I
:08:39. > :08:42.think people don't know what to think. This is a very arcane
:08:43. > :08:46.subject. I think they don't like project fear. I'm being told every
:08:47. > :08:52.day of the week now that tourism will end, they are going to get your
:08:53. > :08:56.cars, babies are going to die in their beds. It's an absurd way of
:08:57. > :09:00.approaching politics. It didn't work very well in Scotland, did it? We
:09:01. > :09:05.don't know what works in Scotland. We don't know what works now. There
:09:06. > :09:10.is a mismatch between what the elite is saying. It is a sort of tram
:09:11. > :09:15.phenomenon. They are trying to make is afraid at one side and on the
:09:16. > :09:19.other side, hordes of immigrants have we leave, hordes of immigrants
:09:20. > :09:23.if we don't leave. It has become craziness. I don't make it will make
:09:24. > :09:29.a lot of difference which way we vote. That is adjusting view - it
:09:30. > :09:35.doesn't matter. If we vote to say in Europe, nothing will change. If we
:09:36. > :09:42.vote to leave, something will change but we don't know what it is yet.
:09:43. > :09:47.I'm for no first time, yes second time, but there will have to be a
:09:48. > :09:50.new arrangement. Can I stop you on that? You think we should vote to
:09:51. > :09:53.leave the EU now to put real pressure for change in Europe? And
:09:54. > :10:00.then if we get it, but to stay. We're already left one form of the
:10:01. > :10:06.EU, the eurozone. And Schengen. This is what they used to call very body
:10:07. > :10:09.of. If we vote no, there will be huge crisis and there will have to
:10:10. > :10:16.be a new negotiation. It is simply a matter of being grown up in each of
:10:17. > :10:19.these cases. And if we do leave, Scotland will use that as a reason
:10:20. > :10:24.to have another referendum because they will want to stay in Europe,
:10:25. > :10:32.probably. Project fear works both ways. We've got Germans - you can't
:10:33. > :10:38.survive without us, Merkel's number two. This has got so build cash
:10:39. > :10:45.talking about his dad. His father was killed in Normandy and he's sort
:10:46. > :10:49.of conflating the two and saying that appeasement didn't work then.
:10:50. > :10:53.Bill has never been a wild enthusiasts for the Germans. Simon
:10:54. > :10:58.Walters, the political editor, has said, when he wanted to talk to me
:10:59. > :11:02.about this my instinct was to swerve him but he went to talk to him and
:11:03. > :11:07.he's got a picture of Chamberlain upside down. It goes on and on. He's
:11:08. > :11:11.basically saying that appeasement means to placate and by accepting
:11:12. > :11:16.the EU as it is now we are placating them and we know who runs the show.
:11:17. > :11:19.He is talking about Germany. Simon who initially wanted to avoid him
:11:20. > :11:23.has now given him a page in the Mail on Sunday. Equally, the fear factor
:11:24. > :11:26.can work the other way and Liam Fox in the sun is saying that fear won't
:11:27. > :11:32.stop the Brits. He's talking about project fear and saying there is a
:11:33. > :11:36.ridiculous story going on last week that migrant camps in Calais will
:11:37. > :11:43.move overnight to Kent if we move to leave the EU. I think you are right,
:11:44. > :11:48.project fear kicks in when actually nobody has a coherent sane argument.
:11:49. > :11:53.The one thing that should be absolutely banned as references to
:11:54. > :11:58.Hitler. If you start mentioning Hitler in any political argument,
:11:59. > :12:01.you've lost. Meanwhile, mentioning Hitler or not, there is a story in
:12:02. > :12:07.the Sunday Telegraph about Tory rebels. We think that there are a
:12:08. > :12:10.bunch of rebels in the Cabinet, like John Whittingdale and Chris Grayling
:12:11. > :12:14.and Priti Patel. Iain Duncan Smith is probably their putative leader.
:12:15. > :12:19.They are coming together and there could be up to 20 quite senior
:12:20. > :12:22.Tories. There is or is going to be, this is the week that they are going
:12:23. > :12:25.to speak out at last but this might well be the week. The question is
:12:26. > :12:28.whether or not they are going to be told by David Cameron after his
:12:29. > :12:32.Brussels summit that they've got to maintain silence for 48 hours while
:12:33. > :12:36.he filled the airwaves with pro-EU spokesman. This is going to be a big
:12:37. > :12:41.one and it might be the one where a week from now we know what the Tory
:12:42. > :12:46.outers actually look like. Let's move on to other parts of the world.
:12:47. > :12:50.The other huge story is the Syrian crisis, where we've got a very good
:12:51. > :12:56.analysis by Patrick Cockburn, one of your best writers, about where we
:12:57. > :12:59.are now but also stories about Saudi troops and jets arriving in Turkey.
:13:00. > :13:02.I can't think of anything more dangerous than the Arab countries
:13:03. > :13:06.taking on the Russians toe to toe in northern Syria. Except the one thing
:13:07. > :13:12.you don't want to do is be involved, in my view. The press have read this
:13:13. > :13:16.so badly. At the beginning of the Arab Spring period, they said Assad
:13:17. > :13:20.would be gone in weeks. It was blazing across all the newspapers.
:13:21. > :13:24.He is finished, it's over, we must side with the rebels. Always a legal
:13:25. > :13:28.thing to do. Ever since then, they've called it wrong. It was
:13:29. > :13:33.clear the Iranians and the Russians were not going to let this guy fall.
:13:34. > :13:37.Sooner or later - and God knows it's now later - he was going to win in
:13:38. > :13:41.some sense of the word. So by getting involved again and again
:13:42. > :13:47.half-heartedly, all we are doing is prolonging someone else's Civil War.
:13:48. > :13:51.Patrick Cockburn, who we talked about and who will be writing for
:13:52. > :13:55.the Independent long after we cease printing, has got it right all the
:13:56. > :13:59.way through. There is a piece where he said we've evolved to a stage of
:14:00. > :14:03.thinking where the West no longer thinks that what you have to do is
:14:04. > :14:07.get rid of bad guys overseas. There is this really naive reading of
:14:08. > :14:10.history which is that we saw the consequences of that in Iraq where
:14:11. > :14:13.we thought, Saddam Hussein is bad so we've got to get rid of him without
:14:14. > :14:18.thinking about the consequences. Obama said if Assad used chemical
:14:19. > :14:22.weapons he would cross a red line. We now think Assad is going to stay
:14:23. > :14:26.in power and the interesting thing is that what goes on in Saudi Arabia
:14:27. > :14:31.is absolutely disgusting - the human rights, the treatment of women, it's
:14:32. > :14:35.absolutely vital. But because of what happened in Syria and Libya,
:14:36. > :14:39.maybe we think the house of Assad is a good thing because there are bad
:14:40. > :14:43.guys and we fund them and give them lots of arms. But the opposition in
:14:44. > :14:46.Saudi Arabia are even more militant Islamist and we don't know what's
:14:47. > :14:49.going to come of that. But the other point Patrick makes is that everyone
:14:50. > :14:54.said Russia's intervention going to be a nightmare and would be bad for
:14:55. > :14:57.Russia. The fact is, Russia's intervention has kept Assad in place
:14:58. > :15:03.and improve Russia's standing in the world. A handbrake turn back to
:15:04. > :15:06.domestic life. Talking about things the Prescott wrong, that period
:15:07. > :15:10.where everybody in public life was a sex maniac or paedophile whatever -
:15:11. > :15:15.we've now swung back to where most of them are regarded as poor victims
:15:16. > :15:20.who deserve a different kind of treatment.
:15:21. > :15:29.Age-old argument that everything must be investigated in a fair and
:15:30. > :15:34.short time. John Leslie, in the context of this is quite lucky. He
:15:35. > :15:40.was accused just before Christmas of a sex allegation with a woman he
:15:41. > :15:44.left an awards ceremony with. He has been cleared, not charged with
:15:45. > :15:50.anything. He did an interview with the Sunday Mirror.
:15:51. > :15:58.He is lucky because it took a short amount of time for him to be told no
:15:59. > :16:01.further action. Somebody like Cliff Richard, two years he has been
:16:02. > :16:07.waiting. I have been writing about this for a long, long time. Many
:16:08. > :16:12.years. I don't think people should be named until they are charged.
:16:13. > :16:18.Then you know that particular claim has veracity. At that point, when it
:16:19. > :16:23.is publicised, other victims or alleged victims can come forward and
:16:24. > :16:32.at their name to the list. Increasingly... Lord Brittan went to
:16:33. > :16:36.his grave with his name tarnished. The newspapers give publicity to
:16:37. > :16:43.these allegations. They do, they are allowed to. I agree with you. The
:16:44. > :16:53.orgies that descends on these people... You can't ask the media
:16:54. > :16:59.to... Exercise extra restraint? Times change. With social media, a
:17:00. > :17:05.tiny nugget of information goes like this... Explodes. I have a small
:17:06. > :17:10.gnome underneath the sofa and a lot of these allegations have been
:17:11. > :17:14.proved to be true, Rolf Harris again yesterday. Absolutely, that is what
:17:15. > :17:17.I said at the beginning. Bernard Hogan Howe, the chief of the match
:17:18. > :17:21.but police has been dragged into this. He said something bizarre last
:17:22. > :17:27.week, police should keep an open mind. Isn't that bad job? Their job
:17:28. > :17:32.is to listen and investigate. -- their job. Not to charge. And not
:17:33. > :17:37.rush to the newspapers before they know what happens. The Sunday Times
:17:38. > :17:42.has completely demolished the argument is that Bernard Hogan Howe
:17:43. > :17:48.used, not just for the treatment of Lord Brittan but Lord Bramall. The
:17:49. > :17:53.Independent. Some people are still confused, what will the Independent
:17:54. > :17:59.website be? What will it consist of? It will be true to the Independent
:18:00. > :18:06.You have been an editor and so have I. Our values for the last 30 years,
:18:07. > :18:10.international, intelligent. It is not shutting, it is switching. The
:18:11. > :18:16.ones you mentioned in your wonderful piece in a loss-making newspaper
:18:17. > :18:20.yesterday. They will be part of the Independent conversation. You will
:18:21. > :18:25.be able to get them online. You have the star writers money not the great
:18:26. > :18:28.network of reporters below them around the country and challenging
:18:29. > :18:36.them and giving them new information information? We have lots of
:18:37. > :18:40.reporters. On Friday, difficult and tough and Saturday as you said, we
:18:41. > :18:47.had several million people look at the Independent journalism. Look at
:18:48. > :18:54.all read? Aren't you sat at the death of a newspaper? Of course. --
:18:55. > :18:59.aren't you side with, I have been in touch with lots of reporters over
:19:00. > :19:03.the coming weeks. We had millions of readers online and a feud tends of
:19:04. > :19:08.thousands in print. We will use the proceeds of the sale to invest. We
:19:09. > :19:14.will have a profitable independent sustainable and it will be available
:19:15. > :19:20.for the next 30 years. You won't be a physical newspaper, do you think
:19:21. > :19:25.you will be followed by lots of your rivals on Wall Street? Eventually.
:19:26. > :19:29.The business model for paid for general news Monday-Friday is
:19:30. > :19:34.broken. There is nothing unclear about it, the game is over in terms
:19:35. > :19:39.of general news. Lots of people still read newspapers. In the
:19:40. > :19:44.long-term. You got the job of the editor of the times. It took us a
:19:45. > :19:49.long time and I am succeeded at the end but it hasn't been killed, you
:19:50. > :19:53.are quite right. Everything has changed. The most important thing is
:19:54. > :19:58.plurality of outlets, there must be plurality of out put it, what ever
:19:59. > :20:03.it is. People want to read newspaper. I read of the death of
:20:04. > :20:06.the theatre, the death of the book, the death of the restaurant, the
:20:07. > :20:16.death of the cinema because of television. Millions of people read
:20:17. > :20:19.newspapers. As many people read newspapers in Britain today as when
:20:20. > :20:26.I became a journalist. They are doing it online. No, we buy -- they
:20:27. > :20:33.are buying newspapers. Papers are in bad shape, they will sort it out.
:20:34. > :20:40.Another 30 years of offered ability will happen. It is one of those bad
:20:41. > :20:44.moments. When you see a title of the newsstands. Sage words, this is the
:20:45. > :20:46.death of the newspaper review, we have run out of time.
:20:47. > :20:49.Say what you like about the British weather, it's got it's own slightly
:20:50. > :20:51.strange, slightly nasty sense of humour.
:20:52. > :20:53.Everything goes warm, flowers bloom, the sun comes out
:20:54. > :20:55.and then a great, gray, greasy, stinking lump of meterological
:20:56. > :21:06.LAUGHTER Quite a hand to the weather, I must
:21:07. > :21:14.say. As far as today is concerned, not
:21:15. > :21:17.too nasty, sunshine on the way for Valentine's Day, hopefully it will
:21:18. > :21:23.warm up some frosty hearts this morning. It has been pretty chilly.
:21:24. > :21:27.Snow showers from eastern parts of Scotland to the north-east of
:21:28. > :21:31.England. Sunshine developing across the Midlands and further south.
:21:32. > :21:35.Yesterday it was horrible, cold and rainy and now the sunshine is
:21:36. > :21:39.setting in but during the course of this evening and overnight, some of
:21:40. > :21:45.the sleet and snow showers across the East and north will move further
:21:46. > :21:49.south. East Anglia and possibly London, Kent and Sussex may get some
:21:50. > :21:54.flurries of sleet and snow in the course of the night. West, really
:21:55. > :21:59.cold. City centre temper Jazz will not be very low but temperatures
:22:00. > :22:08.could get down to five or six degrees in rural spots. Chris --
:22:09. > :22:11.crisp weather. Maybe across the hills, a chance of some of it
:22:12. > :22:16.settling before most of us it will be like and fleeting. The weather
:22:17. > :22:20.for tomorrow, the start of the working week is cold, crisp and
:22:21. > :22:22.sunny and milder later on in the week.
:22:23. > :22:27.Gisela Stuart, Labour's only German MP, is also one of the party's most
:22:28. > :22:29.prominent Eurosceptics, oh yes, there are plenty of Labour
:22:30. > :22:33.So far, however, she's unsure which way she's actually
:22:34. > :22:44.We will come onto that in a moment but a bit of historical perspective.
:22:45. > :22:48.Last time there was a referendum in 1975, a huge hoard of very prominent
:22:49. > :22:54.Labour figures, Tony Blair now and Peter Shaw and many more were
:22:55. > :22:58.campaigning for us not to join the EU, European communities as it was.
:22:59. > :23:03.A big Eurosceptic part of the Labour Party but it has almost vanished
:23:04. > :23:08.with a few notable exceptions, why has that happened? 1962 there was a
:23:09. > :23:13.warning of a federal state of Europe. We kept conflating the
:23:14. > :23:18.argument of economic advantages, jobs, sovereignty. In the 70s we
:23:19. > :23:23.were sitting on the fence, but in essence people thought this was too
:23:24. > :23:27.much for business. In the mid-80s, the European Union gave us the kind
:23:28. > :23:32.of workers and rights which Margaret Thatcher denied us. That was the
:23:33. > :23:37.moment the Labour Party suddenly became pro-European. Ever since
:23:38. > :23:42.Maastricht both sides have frozen. All we have to say to the Tories is
:23:43. > :23:48.Europe and then they divide. We are internationalists at heart, it is
:23:49. > :23:53.easier for asked we tried. Divide the Tories. What is your biggest
:23:54. > :23:57.worry about Europe? The euro and the integration that requires? The
:23:58. > :24:02.historic misunderstanding of what the project is about. The project
:24:03. > :24:06.was always deeper integration and post-Maastricht and the creation of
:24:07. > :24:12.the single currency, you could no longer widen and deepen without
:24:13. > :24:16.serious political consequences. For the last 15 years we have been
:24:17. > :24:21.trying to pretend that you can have one without the other. What worries
:24:22. > :24:26.about me about this referendum, Andrew, everyone keeps talking about
:24:27. > :24:30.the consequences of a vote for No. But if we have a yes vote, we
:24:31. > :24:34.pretend it would be the status quo. It wouldn't, the year reserve would
:24:35. > :24:42.have to integrate more deeply. We know from these negotiations, the
:24:43. > :24:45.French are determined that it will carry on and integrate, fiscal
:24:46. > :24:50.integration, one single European tax system. Can't we just stay outside
:24:51. > :24:54.that? We are outside your own and be showing an?
:24:55. > :25:03.If the Lisbon treatment, the last picture ET negotiation, we had
:25:04. > :25:07.created a non-Eurozone group institution that was entrenched in
:25:08. > :25:10.the treaties and the acknowledgement there will always be some countries
:25:11. > :25:14.not part of the euro, that would have been a possible scenario. When
:25:15. > :25:18.the Prime Minister came on your show, he said negotiations would
:25:19. > :25:23.involve treaty change but that is not happening. Any of his safeguards
:25:24. > :25:26.would be exceptions, rather than entrenched in the institution. You
:25:27. > :25:31.have not made it clear yet which side you would vote for. Looking at
:25:32. > :25:36.David Cameron's negotiations and what he is likely to get this week,
:25:37. > :25:40.what is your position? I am the eternal optimist. The bar he slept
:25:41. > :25:44.himself was exceptionally low. I would be surprised if when he comes
:25:45. > :25:48.back to the House of Commons that I would say this is good enough -- he
:25:49. > :25:52.set himself. You are leaning towards no? This simply isn't good enough
:25:53. > :25:57.and it won't serve the British people. Your leader, Jeremy Corbyn,
:25:58. > :26:02.is making what we are told will be a bold speech backing the case for
:26:03. > :26:06.migration. That we need a positive speech pro migration from the Labour
:26:07. > :26:09.leader. But from a lot of what used to be called blue Labour,
:26:10. > :26:16.working-class Labour, they are worried about immigration. They are
:26:17. > :26:19.worried about pressure on public services. Pro-immigration
:26:20. > :26:23.particularly in big cities is a strong case but unless we actually
:26:24. > :26:26.explain how we deal with that and don't disadvantage the people here,
:26:27. > :26:30.it will be problematic. But I am glad we are widening the debate.
:26:31. > :26:37.A lot of people who want Britain to leave the yuan on the right and one
:26:38. > :26:41.of the points we make again and again and we have heard it on this
:26:42. > :26:46.show, they want less workers right -- leave the EU. How many hours
:26:47. > :26:49.people can work and health and safety. Don't you sometimes feel you
:26:50. > :26:54.are on the wrong side? You are opening the door to a much more free
:26:55. > :26:59.market, much less regulated writ in that lots of Labour voters don't
:27:00. > :27:03.want to see. -- less regulated Britain. The European Union did not
:27:04. > :27:07.give us the right. It was a Labour government which gave us a minimum
:27:08. > :27:10.and living wage, which we have not got across Europe. The argument is
:27:11. > :27:13.that I want a Labour government in the United Kingdom and that will
:27:14. > :27:18.give me workers rights. If Britain votes to leave the Yukon will that
:27:19. > :27:23.change domestic politics in a dramatic way that might favour your
:27:24. > :27:26.party -- leaves be you. It might be cynical and a wrong handed
:27:27. > :27:31.calculation. I am not suggesting that is why you what to do it. It
:27:32. > :27:35.would be turmoil on the other side be so great that even under Jeremy
:27:36. > :27:39.Corbyn Labour can get back across the UK? The vote will not fall along
:27:40. > :27:45.party lines, people will make it on very different basis. After the
:27:46. > :27:49.referendum we will probably have a reconvening of the tribalism of
:27:50. > :27:52.party politics. But going into the referendum with people coming from
:27:53. > :27:57.also rides and voting pretty unpredictably. For now, thank you
:27:58. > :27:59.very much indeed, we will hear more from you later.
:28:00. > :28:01.It's hard to categorise the singer, Laura Mvula.
:28:02. > :28:03.Her earliest influences were soul, jazz and gospel music,
:28:04. > :28:05.but she's also a classically-trained pianist and composer.
:28:06. > :28:10.So you won't be surprised to hear that she's campaigned for more
:28:11. > :28:11.diversity in contemporary music and to protect music
:28:12. > :28:17.Her first album, Sing to the Moon was nominated for numerous awards,
:28:18. > :28:20.and she's about to release her second.
:28:21. > :28:32.Thank you very much for coming in. You began in Birmingham in the kind
:28:33. > :28:35.of Gospel world. What extent has the church, gospel music and that's part
:28:36. > :28:39.of the Black British tradition influenced you?
:28:40. > :28:46.It was much broader than that for me. I was exposed to a lot of church
:28:47. > :28:53.music, but even within church music, it was lots of traditions. We
:28:54. > :28:58.attended Anglican churches quite a lot and the church I used to attend
:28:59. > :29:02.was what you would call a free and independent church. Musically, the
:29:03. > :29:07.styles were all over the place. Which is great. But, yeah, of
:29:08. > :29:14.course, I was also raised in a Caribbean church. Which was a huge
:29:15. > :29:20.influence for me. On my musical creativity growing up. As I said
:29:21. > :29:25.just now, you have done everything, classical piano, composing, and you
:29:26. > :29:30.are campaigning. You think, in a sense, our popular musical culture
:29:31. > :29:32.has become too narrower, based on the kind of X factor type of voices,
:29:33. > :29:46.tell us about that. For me, growing up, I was exposed to
:29:47. > :29:52.so much musically, it was so broad and that was so important for me in
:29:53. > :29:57.my composing and writing to feel that the influences could come from
:29:58. > :30:05.all sorts. There were no boundaries, no limitations. I guess I struggle
:30:06. > :30:12.with mainstream music, today, when we realise that it has become... One
:30:13. > :30:16.thing. It all sounds the same. Which is not true of what exists today,
:30:17. > :30:20.there is so much music, there are so many different ways of making music.
:30:21. > :30:25.So many different ways of accessing music today.
:30:26. > :30:35.Why should we just thrust one thing down? The powers that be so narrow.
:30:36. > :30:41.It's interesting in the Brits because there is not much diversity.
:30:42. > :30:43.Don't get me started about that. I won't be going to the Brits this
:30:44. > :30:51.year. It is something I struggle with. Growing up, obviously my black
:30:52. > :30:57.identity is something that is hugely important to me and something that
:30:58. > :31:04.I'm now going into my 30s... I'm thinking lots and lots more about it
:31:05. > :31:11.and I guess the problem for me is knowing that there are young, black
:31:12. > :31:23.kids growing up and feeling that they are not acknowledge din society
:31:24. > :31:26.in media and mainstream music. And their music is appropriated by white
:31:27. > :31:30.musicians who then try to sound like black musicians but not that people
:31:31. > :31:35.themselves. Is that why you are not going? Because of the diversity
:31:36. > :31:41.issue because I'm not sure what my being there would achieve at this
:31:42. > :31:47.point. But maybe next year, when I have my album out, it will make
:31:48. > :31:51.sense for me to be there. Well, I'm very excited about what you're going
:31:52. > :31:54.to be singing for us. Absolutely fabulous. We're looking forward to
:31:55. > :31:56.that. Thanks for coming on the show, Laura.
:31:57. > :32:00.Let's go back to the origins of the EU, born out of the trauma
:32:01. > :32:04.One great Frenchman who later keeps Britain out
:32:05. > :32:06.of the European Community is General De Gaulle,
:32:07. > :32:08.who comes to London and leads resistance against the Nazis.
:32:09. > :32:10.Another great Frenchman, the World War One hero
:32:11. > :32:12.Marshall Petain, stays, does a deal with Hitler and heads
:32:13. > :32:14.Vichy France, a collaborationist, anti-semitic and authoritarian
:32:15. > :32:21.Strangely, for much of their lives the two men were close friends
:32:22. > :32:24.and a new play in London asks which of them was The Patritotic
:32:25. > :32:28.I caught up with Tom Conti, who plays Petain,
:32:29. > :32:30.and Laurence Fox, who plays De Gaulle.
:32:31. > :32:33.In this scene, Petain tries to defend his collaboration,
:32:34. > :32:43.I inherited a catastrophe, I wasn't responsible for it!
:32:44. > :32:49.A hero in the last war, to sign on the dotted line.
:32:50. > :32:54.I said I'd take defeat on myself and I did.
:32:55. > :32:59.You seem to see yourself as some sort of latter-day Christ.
:33:00. > :33:03.A remarkable claim, for a man with no faith.
:33:04. > :33:10.Your France, if you excuse me, has always been a figment
:33:11. > :33:17.The courtyard of the Palace of Justice
:33:18. > :33:21.in Paris and the bricked up window of Marshall Petain.
:33:22. > :33:32.The old man of Vichy, 89 years old, wearing the seven stars
:33:33. > :33:36.Lawyers for the defence battle for the old man's life.
:33:37. > :33:43.Philippe Petain, once the hero of his country,
:33:44. > :33:45.We have two figures here, with a very strong
:33:46. > :33:56.relationship, a father-son relationship, both could be regarded
:33:57. > :33:58.as traitors - Petain, for the obvious reason,
:33:59. > :34:01.And that terrible anti-Semitic French dictator.
:34:02. > :34:04.Yes, he didn't see himself as an anti-Semitic, or he didn't
:34:05. > :34:08.His quarrel with de Gaulle was that de Gaulle left France
:34:09. > :34:11.and he thought he should stay and do what you can.
:34:12. > :34:13.The famous handshake with Hitler and so on.
:34:14. > :34:21.The Queen shakes hands with people she doesn't want to shake hands
:34:22. > :34:24.with, but she has to do it, because that's the way it is.
:34:25. > :34:27.Is there any kind of defence of Petain's France?
:34:28. > :34:32.Vichy's France, deporting Jews and he did deals with the Nazis.
:34:33. > :34:35.You could say they did their job for them.
:34:36. > :34:39.I don't know how effectively he actually did their job for them,
:34:40. > :34:54.But he firmly believed that if he joined
:34:55. > :34:57.forces with de Gaulle, Hitler would come in and raze
:34:58. > :35:04.They both think the other in a sense is a traitor and Petain is not sure
:35:05. > :35:09.whether de Gaulle will have him shot or not.
:35:10. > :35:11.de Gaulle remains a controversial figure in France today.
:35:12. > :35:14.There is a line in the play suggesting that Charles de Gaulle
:35:15. > :35:19.Yes, that is one of the moments where you see his humanity.
:35:20. > :35:33.His self-awareness is one of the big impacts of the play,
:35:34. > :35:39.I deliver it a bit like a slightly upset little boy, "is that
:35:40. > :35:41.unreasonable for me to want to be king?"
:35:42. > :35:44.There is a great line in it, that a state is a fact,
:35:45. > :35:48.This is the ideal of nationhood, which is very current
:35:49. > :35:51.There is sympathy for Petain in France, is that right?
:35:52. > :35:54.Yes, older people continued to see him as a hero.
:35:55. > :36:04.There's no doubt he did bad things, but he also did things
:36:05. > :36:09.that, according to his conscience, were right.
:36:10. > :36:12.It's sad that he did employ the same tactic in World War II
:36:13. > :36:16.In World War I, it worked and saved France.
:36:17. > :36:20.In World War II, collaboration was awful.
:36:21. > :36:23.Yes, one of the thing that I didn't know, which is so fascinating
:36:24. > :36:31.is that de Gaulle wrote books about military tactics.
:36:32. > :36:41.He used everything that he said in the Second World War.
:36:42. > :36:43.The lightning strike, de Gaulle came up with,
:36:44. > :36:46.Right at the end of the play, there is a
:36:47. > :36:49.fictional scene where Petain and de Gaulle meet and Petain is not sure
:36:50. > :36:52.whether de Gaulle is going to sentence him to death or not,
:36:53. > :37:02.He spent his last days, a number of years, five or six years
:37:03. > :37:13.Except for his jailers, who really, really liked him and wrote about him
:37:14. > :37:15.afterwards, they said this was a splendid man,
:37:16. > :37:19.kind and understanding and never, ever complained.
:37:20. > :37:24.That is what Petain would have liked to have thought,
:37:25. > :37:40.Do you ever have a sudden urge to go off and invade Russia?
:37:41. > :37:43.Yes, when I heard the news I immediately did want to form
:37:44. > :37:45.an army, but it's terribly difficult these days.
:37:46. > :37:49.I'm in! I'm in, sir!
:37:50. > :37:58.And The Patriotic Traitor by Jonathan Lynn
:37:59. > :38:10.opens on Wednesday night at the Park Theatre in London.
:38:11. > :38:13.Now, we know there's a rabbit in David Cameron's hat,
:38:14. > :38:16.almost certainly to be pulled out in front of an awe-struck
:38:17. > :38:20.We don't know how big the rabbit is, what colour it is or,
:38:21. > :38:21.frankly, whether it's even a rabbit at all.
:38:22. > :38:24.But we do know, because we keep being told,
:38:25. > :38:27.The Foreign Secretary Phillip Hammond is with me.
:38:28. > :38:32.You need a rabbit out of that hat, don't you, because the initial signs
:38:33. > :38:35.from the early parts of the negotiations, the things we know
:38:36. > :38:38.about, have gone down like a lead balloon in the Tory party. People
:38:39. > :38:42.are very unimpressed by what's been negotiated so far. What we need is a
:38:43. > :38:46.good deal on Thursday and there's still a lot of moving parts and Mr
:38:47. > :38:50.Goschen but it's already clear that we're going to get a clear statement
:38:51. > :38:57.that Britain is outside the obligations of ever closer union.
:38:58. > :39:01.That's a very important point. It's already clear that we are going to
:39:02. > :39:04.get a framework for the relationship between the eurozone countries and
:39:05. > :39:07.the non-users and countries, something that Gisela Stuart was
:39:08. > :39:12.referring to earlier on as being very important. We're already seeing
:39:13. > :39:16.the shape of a deal but there are still a lot of moving parts over the
:39:17. > :39:20.next few days. As you'd expect, I want to pick through some of that
:39:21. > :39:23.but overall, generally, is it the case that Britain needs to get more
:39:24. > :39:28.than we've go shaded so far for this to be accepted? There isn't a deal
:39:29. > :39:32.yet. There is a working draft. There are lots of moving parts and we've
:39:33. > :39:35.got a negotiation that will run through this week and I have no
:39:36. > :39:38.doubt will run right to the wire with some of these things only being
:39:39. > :39:41.able to be decided by the heads of state and government on Thursday,
:39:42. > :39:46.when they sit down in that room together. But are the broad
:39:47. > :39:54.parameters of the draft enough? We know that we need to achieve
:39:55. > :39:57.commitments on competitiveness, a framework for eurozone- Man on
:39:58. > :40:06.relationships. We need to get clear wins on national sovereignty. And we
:40:07. > :40:10.need something on access to welfare benefits and our European partners
:40:11. > :40:14.understand that we have to have a robust deal in each of those areas
:40:15. > :40:18.if the British people are to vote to remain inside the European Union. So
:40:19. > :40:23.to be clear, this week further progress must be made? Of course
:40:24. > :40:26.we've got to make process this week. There are still lots of square
:40:27. > :40:29.brackets and blanks in the text. There is unclear language in some
:40:30. > :40:34.places. We got to carry on working through this week, up to the
:40:35. > :40:37.European council. If we can get the right deal of the European council
:40:38. > :40:41.then a deal will be done. If we can't get the right deal, we'll
:40:42. > :40:44.carry on talking. Let me read you what a large number of your party
:40:45. > :40:49.Conservative councillors wrote to the premise of this week, 132 of
:40:50. > :40:52.them. They said that the manifesto commitments at the time of the
:40:53. > :40:57.election were the absolute bare minimum that could be acceptable and
:40:58. > :41:00.they go on to say, "As these have not been met, the only responsible
:41:01. > :41:03.and honest thing for the Conservative Party and those in it
:41:04. > :41:08.to do is to campaign for Britain's exit from the European Union". You
:41:09. > :41:12.make clear that if you did not get the deal you wanted on Europe you
:41:13. > :41:15.would not rule out campaigning for Britain to leave the EU yourself and
:41:16. > :41:19.we hope you will now unite your party and Britain in doing so. The
:41:20. > :41:23.truth of the matter is, clearly, so far, you have not got anywhere near
:41:24. > :41:28.the manifesto promises that you put before the British people ahead of
:41:29. > :41:31.the election. Well, the manifesto focused on certain areas but the
:41:32. > :41:34.package has got to be looked at as a whole and the point of having a
:41:35. > :41:38.referendum is that everybody will make up their own mind about whether
:41:39. > :41:41.the package, on balance, taking the rough with the smooth, is in
:41:42. > :41:47.Britain's interests or not in Britain's interests. But as a party,
:41:48. > :41:51.you've stood in front of the British people and said, this is what we
:41:52. > :41:55.will do. You said, for instance, on child tax credits, if an EU
:41:56. > :41:58.migrant's child is living abroad than they should receive no child
:41:59. > :42:02.benefit or child tax credit, no matter how long they've worked in
:42:03. > :42:06.the UK and no matter how much tax they have played. You've failed on
:42:07. > :42:10.that argument, haven't you? Lets see what the packages at the end of the
:42:11. > :42:13.day and let the kid is in the round because there may be areas where we
:42:14. > :42:19.get more than we expected to get and areas where we get less. It would be
:42:20. > :42:24.absurd not to look at the package in the round, all the pluses and all
:42:25. > :42:27.the minuses, and weigh the balance. The Prime Minister made a lot of
:42:28. > :42:33.this four-year pause before migrants can get any kind of benefits. Now,
:42:34. > :42:38.actually, in terms of a negotiation so far, how long would it be after a
:42:39. > :42:43.migrant arrived here from the rest of the EU and was working before the
:42:44. > :42:47.could receive benefits? Until a few weeks ago, people were telling us it
:42:48. > :42:50.was impossible to have any kind of period in which we treated newly
:42:51. > :42:54.arrived migrants differently from people who were already here. But
:42:55. > :42:59.the text that's on the table recognises that there can be a
:43:00. > :43:02.period of four years in which people are treated differently. That's a
:43:03. > :43:07.major step for it. What we've got to discuss is what that treatment
:43:08. > :43:12.precisely is and that will be a subject we will discuss. That won't
:43:13. > :43:19.be resolved before Thursday. That will be on the table. At the moment
:43:20. > :43:24.the Eastern European members of the EU have suggested one year only,
:43:25. > :43:27.which is a long way from four years. And in any event, the suggestion
:43:28. > :43:30.seems to be that it will be a taper so actually, quite quickly migrants
:43:31. > :43:34.will be getting benefits, just quite as much as they would at the moment
:43:35. > :43:38.but those benefits will be paid. The principle that we can have a special
:43:39. > :43:43.regime for newly arrived migrants for former years has been accepted
:43:44. > :43:47.and is in the draft text. We will have to work with our partners now
:43:48. > :43:51.to shake that. How does it look? How does it work? And how does it fit
:43:52. > :43:55.into the broader picture of the steps that we need to take to reduce
:43:56. > :44:02.the artificial attractiveness of Britain to new arrivals? We've dealt
:44:03. > :44:04.with access to unemployment benefits, we are dealing with access
:44:05. > :44:09.to social housing and housing benefits. These are the bits that
:44:10. > :44:13.need be you to act and that's why they're in this text. So let's be
:44:14. > :44:17.absolutely clear. A deal which said benefits won't be paid for the first
:44:18. > :44:20.year would not be enough to satisfy anything like what you were
:44:21. > :44:26.promising in the manifesto or your own party. A one-year period would
:44:27. > :44:29.not. We've got four years, a recognition that there can be
:44:30. > :44:32.different treatment for former careers in the text that is on the
:44:33. > :44:36.table. A lot of people don't understand how this taper could
:44:37. > :44:39.possibly work. Very complicated. There is a huge amount of work to
:44:40. > :44:42.make this work because every country in the EU has a different system,
:44:43. > :44:46.every country has a different claim and if you are taking it over former
:44:47. > :44:50.careers, it's unbearably complicated, and some will say
:44:51. > :44:56.almost impossible, to make it work. I don't think it's unbearably, the
:44:57. > :44:59.gated at all. The concept of giving people 75 the scent of what others
:45:00. > :45:03.are getting and 50 present what others are getting is not
:45:04. > :45:08.compensated. What we've got to do is look at the actual proposals within
:45:09. > :45:13.this four-year period. Getting agreement that we can treat new
:45:14. > :45:20.arrivals differently for a period of four years is a major breakthrough
:45:21. > :45:23.in a challenging, as we have done, one of the sacred cows of the
:45:24. > :45:27.European Union ideology. It's very important to us that we are now
:45:28. > :45:28.looking at how we treat them differently, rather than whether we
:45:29. > :45:39.treat them differently. Marina Wheeler prominent QC marriage
:45:40. > :45:43.to Boris Johnson said that you haven't really gone for the European
:45:44. > :45:47.Court of Justice's jurisdiction, there are no treaty changes in this.
:45:48. > :45:52.The legal position remains the same after this negotiation when it comes
:45:53. > :45:56.to rights and things people complain about in the EU. The ECJ remains
:45:57. > :46:00.supreme and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that unless
:46:01. > :46:05.there is a treaty change and there won't be. First of all, you talked
:46:06. > :46:13.about rights. The EC HR and all of the rights that flow from the
:46:14. > :46:15.European Convention on human rights has nothing to do with the European
:46:16. > :46:18.Union. Have they not been incorporated by the European court
:46:19. > :46:23.of justice? They are referred to but that is a separate issue. Treaty
:46:24. > :46:26.change, legally, we are still arguing that treaty change would be
:46:27. > :46:30.the best way to enshrine some of the changes we need to make. Is there
:46:31. > :46:36.any chance of getting that? It is not essential to give them binding
:46:37. > :46:40.force. What is being proposed, if we eventually have treaty change or
:46:41. > :46:43.not, in the first instance, we will have a binding international law
:46:44. > :46:48.decision registered at the United Nations with the status of a treaty,
:46:49. > :46:51.binding on all the member states. Binding on the European Court, to
:46:52. > :46:55.take account of it in any decisions that it makes. We would get that
:46:56. > :47:00.anyway because even if treaty change is agreed, it will be years before
:47:01. > :47:05.that treaty change comes into force. The British people want to see
:47:06. > :47:09.significant change now that is irreversible and legally binding
:47:10. > :47:13.from day one. That means we need to use this route of an international
:47:14. > :47:17.law decision because it is able to come into effect very quickly. Does
:47:18. > :47:21.that mean the emergency brake which triggers the changes to benefit has
:47:22. > :47:25.to come very quickly once this is agreed? We need to see it
:47:26. > :47:30.implemented as quickly as possible. Another subject which is causing
:47:31. > :47:33.alarm this morning, Syria. Isn't the truth, as we were discussing in the
:47:34. > :47:38.paper review, that President Assad is not going to be removed from
:47:39. > :47:44.power? In terms of a struggle to stay in power, Assad has now won? I
:47:45. > :47:48.don't think so. The situation with regard to Assad is the same it was a
:47:49. > :47:53.year ago. But he has the Russians backing him. It is the same as a
:47:54. > :47:57.year ago. Whether or not Assad goes all stays ultimately will depend on
:47:58. > :48:02.whether the Russians are prepared to use their influence to remove him --
:48:03. > :48:05.or stays. That was the same a year ago, I remember saying it more than
:48:06. > :48:09.a year ago in the House of Commons. One man on this planet can end the
:48:10. > :48:15.civil war in Syria by making a phone call and that is Mr Putin. President
:48:16. > :48:18.Putin has conducted the war in favour of Assad, pushing aside most
:48:19. > :48:23.of the democratic opposition. For a long time we had this great belief
:48:24. > :48:27.that there was a powerful Democratic Syrian opposition who could win this
:48:28. > :48:32.war, that is now for the birds, they have been defeated? They haven't.
:48:33. > :48:35.That is wrong. Russian air attack has caused attrition against the
:48:36. > :48:42.opposition, about 150,000 moderate of the opposition fighters, I would
:48:43. > :48:46.not call them democratic but moderate opposition fighters on the
:48:47. > :48:49.ground. The Russians have launched an atrocious air attacks, rapidly
:48:50. > :48:54.increasing the intensity of them over the last few weeks. That has
:48:55. > :48:57.forced them out of some of the positions they controlled. But the
:48:58. > :49:01.important thing is that the Syrian regime does not have the forces, the
:49:02. > :49:07.strength and the organisation, to take control of those areas. It is a
:49:08. > :49:11.stalemate. They do with the Russians. They don't. The Russians
:49:12. > :49:16.are only effectively using air power, they can force the opposition
:49:17. > :49:19.to give ground but the regime is not able, it has not shown itself able
:49:20. > :49:23.to effectively take control of that ground. The last of the moderate
:49:24. > :49:27.opposition are holding out in Aleppo right now and the Russians are
:49:28. > :49:32.pounding them, Ayew calling on the Russians to stop right now? We are.
:49:33. > :49:38.-- all you calling. But there are moderate opposition positions there
:49:39. > :49:43.and in the outskirts of Damascus. Moderate opposition positions in the
:49:44. > :49:46.south of the country. But the situation in Aleppo is extremely
:49:47. > :49:51.worrying, the Russians are using carpet bombing tactics,
:49:52. > :49:57.indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas held by oppositionists. Yes,
:49:58. > :50:01.we demand that the comply with the obligations under international law
:50:02. > :50:05.-- the Russians comply. And the resolution is they have signed up
:50:06. > :50:10.to. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and other Arab countries are talking about
:50:11. > :50:15.putting troops on the ground now to take on the Shia forces. The
:50:16. > :50:20.Russians have said this could lead to world war, how worried should we
:50:21. > :50:29.be? That is a gross exaggeration by the Russians. The sunny Arabs of the
:50:30. > :50:33.golf are deeply concerned -- the sunny Arabs. Whether they are
:50:34. > :50:42.arranging, revolutionary guard, and all whether they are Iranians
:50:43. > :50:47.regular forces. -- Sunni Arabs. It is a deeply did stabilise in factor.
:50:48. > :50:51.The Russians are concerned and then they should be prevailing on their
:50:52. > :50:54.Iranian allies to withdraw their forces from Syria. Back to Europe
:50:55. > :51:00.briefly, the question that never seems to be asked, what happens to
:51:01. > :51:06.the rest of EU the if Britain leaves? If Mr Donald Tusk had bad
:51:07. > :51:09.view, the whole house of cards could calm down.
:51:10. > :51:15.I fear and many people in Europe fear that without Britain, Europe
:51:16. > :51:20.would lurch in very much the wrong direction. Britain has been an
:51:21. > :51:26.enormously important influence in Europe. It has been an influence for
:51:27. > :51:31.open markets, free trade, for a derision east approach to the
:51:32. > :51:35.economy. If we need we would be dealing with a more dangerous and
:51:36. > :51:40.hostile and less attractive Europe? We would be dealing with a Europe
:51:41. > :51:46.that looked less in our image. There is a real fear in Europe that if
:51:47. > :51:50.Britain leaves, the contagion will spread. People who say we would do a
:51:51. > :51:54.great deal with Europe if we left, we would get a great deal with
:51:55. > :51:57.Europe, forget that the country's remaining in the European Union will
:51:58. > :52:01.be looking over their shoulder at people in their own country saying
:52:02. > :52:06.if the Brits can do it, why can't we? They will not have an interest
:52:07. > :52:10.in demonstrating that we can succeed outside the European Union. We will
:52:11. > :52:11.talk a bit more in a moment but for now, thank you.
:52:12. > :52:13.Now over to Steph for the news headlines.
:52:14. > :52:16.The Foreign Secretary has told this programme that he expects
:52:17. > :52:17.negotiations over reforms to Britain's relationship
:52:18. > :52:23.Philip Hammond said there was a working draft of a deal
:52:24. > :52:26.on the table, but it still had many moving parts to be resolved
:52:27. > :52:31.at the summit of European leaders in Brussels this week.
:52:32. > :52:33.The Eurosceptic Labour MP, Gisela Stuart said she was worried
:52:34. > :52:37.that the EU is inevitably heading towards deeper political
:52:38. > :52:45.What worries me about this referendum, everybody keeps talking
:52:46. > :52:47.about the consequences of a no vote and we
:52:48. > :52:51.pretend that if we had a yes vote, the status quo would simply be
:52:52. > :52:59.Washington has called on Turkey to halt artillery attacks
:53:00. > :53:03.on a Kurdish militia group in northern Syria.
:53:04. > :53:05.Turkey and Saudi Arabia have warned that they will send ground forces
:53:06. > :53:09.into Syria, if an agreement isn't reached for a pause in the fighting.
:53:10. > :53:12.Russia has rejected calls to change its policy of air strikes,
:53:13. > :53:18.with the West accusing Moscow of targeting civilians.
:53:19. > :53:21.That's all from me. The next news on BBC1 is at 1pm.
:53:22. > :53:28.First, a look at what's coming up immediately after this programme.
:53:29. > :53:34.Join us live from Leicester at 10am and we will debate whether defeating
:53:35. > :53:39.so-called Islamic State in Syria needs more troops on the ground from
:53:40. > :53:44.outside, including the west. And then Buddhism, is it too much about
:53:45. > :53:45.the self? See you at 10am on BBC One.
:53:46. > :53:48.Well Philip Hammond is still with me, and we've been joined again
:53:49. > :53:55.You sit around the Cabinet table, UI ball of these guys and women, how
:53:56. > :54:01.many of them will be on the other side when it comes to the debate? --
:54:02. > :54:05.you eyeball. People want to wait and see what the deal is. There are one
:54:06. > :54:10.or two people whose minds are made up but I hope there are others who
:54:11. > :54:13.are genuinely open at looking at the deal that genuinely comes back and
:54:14. > :54:17.considering their position. Do you think Michael Gove and Boris Johnson
:54:18. > :54:22.will be on the same platform as you? You will need to ask them, I can't
:54:23. > :54:25.speak for others. This point we talked about earlier on, whether we
:54:26. > :54:29.are still underneath the influence of the European Court of Justice is
:54:30. > :54:33.important. Surely that is the crucial question if we will get
:54:34. > :54:37.powers back for this country, regains sovereignty, we need to deal
:54:38. > :54:45.with the European Court of Justice? One of the big things when Philip
:54:46. > :54:47.Hammond mentioned, we don't know how the European Court of Justice will
:54:48. > :54:53.interpret that once it is challenged. Go back to the Danish
:54:54. > :54:57.example in the early 90s, they have various opt outs about citizenship,
:54:58. > :55:02.the ECJ overruled it time and time again. Unless things are in Schrage
:55:03. > :55:06.entreaty changes and therefore cannot be challenged in the courts,
:55:07. > :55:11.they will not be worth the paper they are written on -- unless things
:55:12. > :55:14.are enshrined in. They will be an international law decision binding
:55:15. > :55:21.on the member states and which the court itself confirmed. It has to
:55:22. > :55:25.take into account. Where the heads of state and government in a binding
:55:26. > :55:31.decision given interpretation of the treaties, the court has to take that
:55:32. > :55:35.interpretation into account. As a lawyer, taking into account is not
:55:36. > :55:38.the same thing as saying you can't do it. It is a very important
:55:39. > :55:43.consideration that will guide the court. Very quickly, is it fair that
:55:44. > :55:48.people like you are able to make the case. In the E U, while the others
:55:49. > :55:53.in the government who don't want to stay in have to stay quiet? I will
:55:54. > :56:00.make the case. Weighing in the EU if we get the right deal -- I will make
:56:01. > :56:02.the case. A in. I don't know if there is a deal coming. There will
:56:03. > :56:04.be a rabbit in the end. That's almost it for today,
:56:05. > :56:06.thanks to all my guests. In an hour, Andrew Neil will be
:56:07. > :56:09.here with the all the big stories We'll be back next week
:56:10. > :56:13.when we might just have Rest assured, we'll be hearing
:56:14. > :56:16.from the big players right here. We leave you now with one
:56:17. > :56:19.of the defining new voices # When your heart
:56:20. > :56:27.is broken down, down # And your head don't reach
:56:28. > :56:33.the sky # Round the mountain
:56:34. > :58:45.all God's children run # Round the mountain
:58:46. > :58:51.all God's children # All God's children run run
:58:52. > :58:59.round the mountain run