:00:16. > :00:16.An historic deal by the British Prime Minister,
:00:17. > :00:19.transforming our relationship with the rest of the EU.
:00:20. > :00:22.Or it's a piece of transparent PR spin - which will convince nobody.
:00:23. > :00:40.After days of haggling, and speech-making David Cameron
:00:41. > :00:42.joins me to make his case and answer his critics -
:00:43. > :00:48.I'm joined too by Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon -
:00:49. > :00:56.probably for the first time, on David Cameron's side.
:00:57. > :01:00.And I'll be talking to Nigel Farage - up until now the most vivid
:01:01. > :01:02.campaigner for Brexit - but is he the man to lead
:01:03. > :01:10.No apologies, that Europe, and the future of the Uk's
:01:11. > :01:12.No apologies, that Europe, and the future of the UK's
:01:13. > :01:15.relationship with it, dominates our show this morning -
:01:16. > :01:17.and of course it's all over the Sunday papers too.
:01:18. > :01:20.Here to review them, Nick Robinson - our former political editor
:01:21. > :01:22.of course, and now with the Today programme.
:01:23. > :01:24.And the Labour MP Kate Hoey - one of the leaders of
:01:25. > :01:30.But first the news with Ben Thompson.
:01:31. > :01:37.Ministers have begun campaigning to win over voters ahead of June's
:01:38. > :01:47.referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union.
:01:48. > :01:49.One key Conservative figure still to announce his decision
:01:50. > :01:51.is the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson.
:01:52. > :01:53.But there are indications this morning he will support the campaign
:01:54. > :01:56.correspondent Eleanor Garnier reports.
:01:57. > :02:01.The cameras were ready, even the crowds were waiting.
:02:02. > :02:07.I will go to Parliament and propose that the
:02:08. > :02:09.British people decide our future in Europe through an in-out
:02:10. > :02:11.referendum on Thursday the 23rd of June.
:02:12. > :02:13.Most of his ministers are on his side.
:02:14. > :02:18.I think everyone thinks it's a good deal, the question is whether it's
:02:19. > :02:21.good enough for everyone to think we should still stay in Europe.
:02:22. > :02:36.Those who will fight him slipped out the back door.
:02:37. > :02:38.Please join me in welcoming the Leave's
:02:39. > :02:43.And straight to the phone banks at an out campaign headquarters.
:02:44. > :02:44.This is Iain Duncan-Smith, I'm a member
:02:45. > :02:48.Before a family photo of the gang of six.
:02:49. > :02:50.How much of a struggle has it been to decide
:02:51. > :02:54.I've found it very difficult to be on a different side
:02:55. > :02:55.of this debate to the Prime Minister.
:02:56. > :02:58.I hugely welcome the fact he's giving us all a choice,
:02:59. > :03:01.not just members of the Government, but the people of the United Kingdom
:03:02. > :03:08.But what about this man, the Mayor of London?
:03:09. > :03:11.After weeks of speculation he is expected to confirm later
:03:12. > :03:13.today that he'll side with the Leave campaign.
:03:14. > :03:15.He's told friends he is genuinely conflicted.
:03:16. > :03:19.It would be a disappointment for the Prime
:03:20. > :03:21.Minister, but certainly not a surprise.
:03:22. > :03:22.Eleanor Garnier, BBC News, Westminster.
:03:23. > :03:25.Jeb Bush has pulled out of the race to become the Republican candidate
:03:26. > :03:31.He had hoped to become the third member of the Bush family to be
:03:32. > :03:33.elected to the White House, but ended his campaign,
:03:34. > :03:37.after coming fourth in the South Carolina primary.
:03:38. > :03:40.The vote was won by the billionaire businessman, Donald Trump.
:03:41. > :03:42.In the Democratic race, Hillary Clinton secured an important
:03:43. > :03:49.Police in the US state of Michigan say a 14-year-old girl has become
:03:50. > :03:52.the seventh person to die in a multiple shooting.
:03:53. > :03:54.A total of nine people were attacked in three different locations
:03:55. > :04:04.appeared to have been targeted at random.
:04:05. > :04:08.Police in Hungary say increasing numbers of migrants are breaching
:04:09. > :04:10.a border fence, built last year to keep them out.
:04:11. > :04:12.Police have caught more than 1,200 so far this month.
:04:13. > :04:14.It follows moves by Austria, Slovenia, and Balkan countries
:04:15. > :04:21.to limit the number being allowed through.
:04:22. > :04:26.That's all from me, for now. Back to you, Andrew.
:04:27. > :04:38.We think there is only one newspaper, -- story today and in
:04:39. > :04:42.newspapers agree. Let's take back control on that banner on the front
:04:43. > :04:44.of the Sunday Telegraph. Almost identical on the Sunday Times,
:04:45. > :04:52.Cameron declares war on rebels. Last-ditch bid to woo Boris, we will
:04:53. > :04:55.talk about that in a moment. The Observer, in the most
:04:56. > :04:59.uncompromisingly pro-Cameron front-page, the choices in your
:05:00. > :05:05.hands, I believe we will be safer and stronger in the EU, paper
:05:06. > :05:10.backing a pro-European at the. The most interesting front-page on the
:05:11. > :05:15.Daily Mail, exposed: Michael Gove and Boris in secret EU plot and
:05:16. > :05:20.shady photographs of the two men in central London. Finally, Scotland on
:05:21. > :05:27.Sunday has a picture of Donald Trump after his victory, don't put the UK
:05:28. > :05:31.at risk. Sunday People, Leicester are dying, but that's not about
:05:32. > :05:33.Europe!. We will start with the Mail on Sunday.
:05:34. > :05:39.It's a wonderful Mail on Sunday production. It is wonderful, the
:05:40. > :05:42.grainy photograph, the word exposed and secret implies they are having
:05:43. > :05:45.an affair but when you turn to the middle pages they may be having a
:05:46. > :05:51.political affair but their wives were both there, we should say, for
:05:52. > :05:55.the benefit of the doubt Michael Gove's wife left earlier leaving
:05:56. > :05:58.Boris and Michael. And he is grinning when he realises the
:05:59. > :06:02.cameras are there and it will be printed. The key is what they agreed
:06:03. > :06:06.at the dinner did they agree anything? We still don't know Boris
:06:07. > :06:14.Johnson's view, although we think we know he's going to be an outer. We
:06:15. > :06:19.think he will come out later in the day. The question is, have we seen a
:06:20. > :06:24.process of careful consideration? Have we seen a process of pathetic
:06:25. > :06:28.procrastination, or have we seen, as many Tories I know think, a cynical
:06:29. > :06:33.calculation that Boris Johnson simply wanted the theatrics of the
:06:34. > :06:36.will he or won't he moment? It's been an extraordinary and slightly
:06:37. > :06:43.elephantine dance of the seven veils. In the end what he says
:06:44. > :06:54.matters and people in the country who want to leave will want Boris to
:06:55. > :07:01.be on the leave side. BoJo becomes BoGo. He is alleged to have said to
:07:02. > :07:05.one of his own allies he was veering around all over the place like a
:07:06. > :07:09.shopping trolley. I'm sure he is because the reality is he's been
:07:10. > :07:12.looking to see what the Conservative grassroots are thinking and they are
:07:13. > :07:17.thinking he's gone around the country doing lots of meetings, so
:07:18. > :07:23.opposed to the EU that if he had any chance of becoming leader he could
:07:24. > :07:26.not possibly have come out for the state campaign. Have used lightly
:07:27. > :07:30.given the game away? If this is meant to be about the future of the
:07:31. > :07:33.company wide as he care what the Conservative grassroots think?
:07:34. > :07:40.Forgive me, this man could be our next Prime Minister. Within a year
:07:41. > :07:44.he will be chosen not by the British electorate but Tory members. This
:07:45. > :07:48.will he or won't he won't help. Every single minister that has come
:07:49. > :07:53.out wanted to give their reason why and the ones staying in with heavy
:07:54. > :07:57.hearts and all of that and all of that, they are all looking for their
:07:58. > :08:03.own futures. Final thought on Boris who we think is watching the
:08:04. > :08:05.programme and we will interview the Prime Minister later. Looking
:08:06. > :08:11.forward to joining the campaign to leave. A very gracious welcome for
:08:12. > :08:16.you there. The reason it matters is that so far there has not been a
:08:17. > :08:21.really national figure in the Conservative Party in particular on
:08:22. > :08:24.the Brexit side and if Boris threw his hat into the ring he'd be a
:08:25. > :08:32.match for the Prime Minister in those debates. We have got Michael
:08:33. > :08:36.Gove and Michael Gove coming out so brilliantly explaining why he was
:08:37. > :08:42.coming out I think is another game change in this whole thing. This
:08:43. > :08:50.thing today, in nearly all of the papers that cover it, it is so clear
:08:51. > :08:56.why he has decided and is about sovereignty. Is about him saying how
:08:57. > :09:01.personally he found it so difficult when he wants to do things. Yes,
:09:02. > :09:05.Minister, I understand. But I'm afraid that's against EU rules and
:09:06. > :09:10.that goes to the heart of it and the Constitution. In the end this is
:09:11. > :09:14.about layers of law, that's the fundamental question under which
:09:15. > :09:18.laws we are governed. Under the Lisbon and Nice treaties and
:09:19. > :09:23.Maastricht Treaty is, they take precedent over British law and the
:09:24. > :09:27.European single act. That is the essence Michael Gove is getting at.
:09:28. > :09:31.It is that word often used by politicians and almost never by the
:09:32. > :09:35.public, that photograph is striking on the front pages, it does not say
:09:36. > :09:40.sovereignty or democracy, because even democracy seems abstract, it
:09:41. > :09:44.says control. The message of the Leave campaign, written beautifully
:09:45. > :09:48.by Michael Gove, is we want to control our own destiny and then we
:09:49. > :09:52.have to get out. The message of the other side is essentially, our
:09:53. > :09:56.security depends on sharing a little bit of power, whether it is dealing
:09:57. > :10:02.with Putin or dealing with Iran, or climate change. It is a visceral or
:10:03. > :10:05.emotional choice in the. You were at the famous Grassroots Out big
:10:06. > :10:12.meeting on the night of the deal. George Galloway was the secret guest
:10:13. > :10:18.and people walked out as a result. The Sunday Times has a story which
:10:19. > :10:22.is not true. It advises hundreds of people walked out but the reality is
:10:23. > :10:28.we were running late. This was the third grassroots meeting, we've done
:10:29. > :10:31.meetings of 2000, 3000, and this was a big one in Westminster and George
:10:32. > :10:37.Galloway came right at the end. Maybe a dozen, 20 people walked out.
:10:38. > :10:40.But if these people who had written this story, James Lyons and Tim
:10:41. > :10:47.Shipman, had been there they would have seen the warm response they
:10:48. > :10:50.gave him. In the this will be a campaign about the elites, the
:10:51. > :10:55.establishment, lining up the political leaders, the media and
:10:56. > :10:57.also some things, and it's going to be against the people. We have to
:10:58. > :11:00.work with people we don't particularly like and I will work
:11:01. > :11:06.with people I don't particularly like and others I like a lot. Last
:11:07. > :11:10.time in 1975 we had in power and Tony Blair on the same side and that
:11:11. > :11:18.didn't do well for the No campaign, it was incoherent. We had only just
:11:19. > :11:20.joined the Common market, trading relationship, and it is so
:11:21. > :11:23.complicated with all of these treaties you mentioned command this
:11:24. > :11:28.is the first time the real British public are getting their say. That
:11:29. > :11:36.is why all of these articles today, even from some ministers, which you
:11:37. > :11:39.have got a good example of. One of the most fascinating things in the
:11:40. > :11:43.papers today, on the one hand you get figures not frankly well-known
:11:44. > :11:46.to the public but may end up being candidates to be the next Prime
:11:47. > :11:52.Minister, Priti Patel the Daily Mail. This is a minister saying of
:11:53. > :11:55.David Cameron in effect, by scaremongering the public, by trying
:11:56. > :12:00.to frighten them to vote to remain they are talking down our economic
:12:01. > :12:03.aspects and have no confidence in the ingenuity and entrepreneurism
:12:04. > :12:06.that is vibrant and dynamic across the country. And then you turn in
:12:07. > :12:11.the paper, also the Mail on Sunday, to someone backing a bet Cameron,
:12:12. > :12:16.Sajid Javid but he says he's doing it with a heavy heart, his opening
:12:17. > :12:22.sentence is: it is clear now the UK should never have joined the EU and
:12:23. > :12:25.he's in favour! If this is trying to get people to march to the voting
:12:26. > :12:32.booths it is pretty horrible, not very inspiring. Theresa Villiers has
:12:33. > :12:35.done another very good piece. She is particularly important in this
:12:36. > :12:38.because she is Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Northern
:12:39. > :12:45.Ireland may be a small country but people vote there. This will play an
:12:46. > :12:48.important part and she says it is to the same thing. She is
:12:49. > :12:52.understandably trying to be nice about the Prime Minister. She says I
:12:53. > :12:57.do not believe this scare stories about our future outside the EU. It
:12:58. > :13:01.raises the fascinating political prospect that David Cameron may go
:13:02. > :13:06.down in history as the man who saves Britain's membership of the European
:13:07. > :13:10.Union, the poll shows clearly we could stay in. But it could destroy
:13:11. > :13:13.the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party has been busily
:13:14. > :13:18.trying to destroy itself since I was a child on this issue. That poll got
:13:19. > :13:25.it so wrong, it was the worst poll in the General Election. There are
:13:26. > :13:28.others. Sajid Javid's fundamental point is despite everything, the
:13:29. > :13:32.turmoil and turbulence if we left would be too much. It is interesting
:13:33. > :13:35.because he is ex-Treasury and it's interesting because he says we are
:13:36. > :13:39.on the edge of a big economic downturn and things are going to get
:13:40. > :13:42.bloody economically and this is not the time to get out. This is the
:13:43. > :13:45.Business Secretary and a close ally of the Chancellor who would have had
:13:46. > :13:48.lots of pressure from big business and I'm sure he would have said to
:13:49. > :13:51.big business, lots of other businesses will say different
:13:52. > :13:56.things, but about 80% of the FTSE 100 are in favour, and saying for
:13:57. > :14:00.goodness sake, there is real economic anxiety at the moment and
:14:01. > :14:03.huge security worries in terms of Isis and Russia so don't take the
:14:04. > :14:08.risk. On the other hand there is the risk of staying in. Of course. We
:14:09. > :14:11.have quoted everybody this morning except David Cameron who is also all
:14:12. > :14:19.over the papers, particularly the Sunday Times and the Sun newspaper.
:14:20. > :14:23.It should be EU. He is saying here he believes the Sun newspaper
:14:24. > :14:28.readers will be the key voters in this. It is a real tribute to the
:14:29. > :14:32.Sun newspaper readers. I think he will be mistaken. Many of the Sun
:14:33. > :14:38.newspaper readers will be wanting to get out, many I have spoken to. The
:14:39. > :14:43.headline tomorrow, it is BoGo. There speaks annex newspaper editor! Lots
:14:44. > :14:47.of your viewers will be interested in the referendum which is during
:14:48. > :14:50.the heart of the European football championships when Northern Ireland,
:14:51. > :14:54.Wales and England have all qualified, and the week of the
:14:55. > :14:59.referendum we will know whether the three countries have gone on to the
:15:00. > :15:02.next stages. And here in the Sun newspaper they point out the ball
:15:03. > :15:06.exit in a week, we could have a situation where we leave the EU and
:15:07. > :15:11.our teams all leave, but hopefully we will be leaving the EU and all of
:15:12. > :15:14.our teams will go through to the next round. Talking about voters and
:15:15. > :15:18.things ahead of us, the American elections, we've also been obsessed
:15:19. > :15:21.with that, those of us who are political nutters have been watching
:15:22. > :15:25.it and it's been an extraordinary day yesterday. Trump romping ahead.
:15:26. > :15:29.We always thought he would trip up, no sign of it at all. There was or
:15:30. > :15:32.was this moment that you would get this appeal is, he's successful to
:15:33. > :15:37.start with. He will blow up somewhere. Once again the
:15:38. > :15:41.establishment have proved not to be in control of events which is good
:15:42. > :15:44.news for Kate and her side of the gym and. Trump looks on course and
:15:45. > :15:50.Hillary Clinton saw off Bernie Sanders. Winning on the Liberal
:15:51. > :15:56.Democrat side, that was important for her. It is beginning to look
:15:57. > :16:00.like Trump versus Clinton. That is extraordinary because both of them
:16:01. > :16:04.stir passions of the people who love them, love them, but many more
:16:05. > :16:08.people and this is true of both candidates, absolutely loathe and
:16:09. > :16:12.fear them. Therefore, you have an election which is not great for
:16:13. > :16:14.democracy if that's the choice because there will be many Americans
:16:15. > :16:20.who simply will not want to vote for either of them. Trump in many ways
:16:21. > :16:23.tells is why Boris matters. Not because Trump's politics is the same
:16:24. > :16:32.as Boris, they disagree on many things. Hair! What Trump has shown
:16:33. > :16:38.capacity to do in the media driven! To age is absolutely obsess the
:16:39. > :16:44.public and he draws cameras to him. The public are fed up with
:16:45. > :16:47.politicians. That is what is happening in America. I hope Obama
:16:48. > :16:50.listens to some of these people and when he comes over here soon stops
:16:51. > :16:55.telling British people how to vote in the referendum. That would go
:16:56. > :16:59.Danbury well. I will tell him when he comes onto the sofa. -- go down
:17:00. > :17:03.very well. Nicola Sturgeon has said that
:17:04. > :17:05.as Scotland's First Minister, she'll be in the forefront
:17:06. > :17:07.of the campaign to stay But as SNP leader, she wants
:17:08. > :17:11.a rather different EU from David Scotland's government wants migrants
:17:12. > :17:16.and favours the kind of social She joins me from our
:17:17. > :17:26.Glasgow studio. Good morning, Andrew. This is an
:17:27. > :17:30.important moment for Scotland as well as the UK. You have been
:17:31. > :17:35.watching David Cameron's negotiation. What did you make of
:17:36. > :17:40.that? The negotiation and the outcome of the negotiation is
:17:41. > :17:44.somewhat immaterial. If, like me, you're passionate about remaining in
:17:45. > :17:47.the European Union, nothing that came out of the negotiation will
:17:48. > :17:51.change your mind. If you're determined to Broad to leave the
:17:52. > :17:56.European Union, there is nothing that will shift your opinion. If I
:17:57. > :17:59.am concerned at all about the negotiation, those people who are
:18:00. > :18:04.undecided, who have been encouraged by David Cameron to look at the
:18:05. > :18:08.outcome, to base their opinion on, will be disappointed by it, because
:18:09. > :18:12.it did not live up to many of the expectations that he himself
:18:13. > :18:16.created. For me, that is all the more reason why it is time to get
:18:17. > :18:21.away from the narrow issues involved in that negotiation onto the big
:18:22. > :18:24.picture. Why is it better for us to remain within the European Union?
:18:25. > :18:30.That is the campaign I look forward to taking part in. If an independent
:18:31. > :18:36.Scotland was at the EU table, you would want a presumably different EU
:18:37. > :18:41.than David Cameron? David Cameron and I will both cast votes to stay
:18:42. > :18:47.in the European Union on the June 23rd. But I suspect for different
:18:48. > :18:52.reasons. David Cameron once the social and deployment protections in
:18:53. > :18:56.Europe watered down. For me, this is part of the reason for being in the
:18:57. > :19:01.European Union. If we come out of the European Union, Eric Cameron's
:19:02. > :19:04.majority Conservative government would be unfettered when it came to
:19:05. > :19:09.employment rights or social protection. We have a different
:19:10. > :19:15.vision, and perhaps in a referendum that is no bad thing. We will appeal
:19:16. > :19:20.to different strands of opinion. You will almost certainly get new powers
:19:21. > :19:23.over aspects of fiscal policy in Scotland. That would enable you to
:19:24. > :19:30.top benefits for migrants who came into Scotland. Would you do that? We
:19:31. > :19:35.are in the midst of a discussion about the fiscal arrangements. That
:19:36. > :19:39.is not settled yet. I have no proposals to do that. We will put
:19:40. > :19:42.forward proposals for the use of new tax and well Priya powers in the
:19:43. > :19:51.run-up to the Scottish Parliament elections. -- and welfare powers. Of
:19:52. > :19:54.course people are concerned about migration, but European Union
:19:55. > :19:59.migration into the UK, and the evidence shows this, has a net
:20:00. > :20:03.economic benefit, rather than an economic detriment. We take a
:20:04. > :20:10.different view. It is important that the upturn to viewers heard in this
:20:11. > :20:13.debate. Do you think what is being done to EU migrants in this country
:20:14. > :20:16.is fair to them? When you start going down this road, I think the
:20:17. > :20:20.danger is the freedom of movement that is one of the underpinning
:20:21. > :20:23.principles of the European Union starts to be fragmented. I am sure
:20:24. > :20:28.David Cameron would be one of the first to complain of people from the
:20:29. > :20:33.UK grad migrated to other member states of the European Union, and
:20:34. > :20:37.there are many of them, started to be discriminated against. What has
:20:38. > :20:42.come out of the negotiation does not add up to all that much. I do not
:20:43. > :20:46.think it will change many opinions, apart from those who are undecided,
:20:47. > :20:50.people who have been encouraged by David Cameron all along to look at
:20:51. > :20:56.the outcome and what he has delivered. It has not lived up to
:20:57. > :21:00.what he said some months ago. It was not a big enough rabbit. Can I ask
:21:01. > :21:05.you about something else? We have talked about this before, but it is
:21:06. > :21:10.no much more on the horizon, what happens if the UK overall votes to
:21:11. > :21:14.leave the EU but Scotland does not? With that definitely trigger a
:21:15. > :21:19.Scottish referendum? Almost certainly, I think that would be the
:21:20. > :21:24.demand of people in Scotland. Let me say this very clearly, I hope this
:21:25. > :21:29.scenario does not arise. I do not want to see it arise, I hope the UK
:21:30. > :21:38.boards to stay in the EU for overriding of different reasons. I
:21:39. > :21:43.would say to the in campaign in this referendum, do not make the same
:21:44. > :21:47.mistakes that the no campaign did in the Scottish referendum by being
:21:48. > :21:52.negative about everything. If you catch Jermaine Baker that campaign,
:21:53. > :21:56.the no campaign said that if Scotland voted yes, our membership
:21:57. > :22:01.of the EU would be at risk. That was rubbish. If a couple of years later,
:22:02. > :22:06.we find yourself, having voted to stay in the European Union, and
:22:07. > :22:13.taken out against our well, I think something will have to happen. We
:22:14. > :22:17.would have to be independent, that is inescapable. If Scotland was out
:22:18. > :22:21.of the EU as part of Britain and then separated from the UK and went
:22:22. > :22:25.back into the EU, we would then have to have a border between Scotland
:22:26. > :22:30.and England, because England would be outside the EU. A number of
:22:31. > :22:34.aspects of that would have to be debated in the context. I take
:22:35. > :22:42.nothing for granted about Scottish opinion in this referendum, but all
:22:43. > :22:45.the opinion polls suggest there will be a significant Broad to stay in
:22:46. > :22:48.the European Union. Scotland has always seen itself as a European
:22:49. > :22:51.country. I think we would be better served as an independent member
:22:52. > :22:56.states. If we were taken out of the European Union when we expressly
:22:57. > :23:01.said we wanted to stay in, that would trigger a demand for a second
:23:02. > :23:07.independence referendum. I am getting anecdotal, but I know people
:23:08. > :23:11.who voted no in 2014, who are passionate about their vote, who
:23:12. > :23:17.would change their minds in this scenario. That is inevitable. I will
:23:18. > :23:21.be campaigning for Scotland to vote to stay in. I am not sure if anyone
:23:22. > :23:26.else in the rest of the UK will want to listen to my opinion, but if they
:23:27. > :23:33.do, I will seek to persuade people across the UK as well. At the start,
:23:34. > :23:37.I said you're not often on the same side as David Cameron. Would he be
:23:38. > :23:42.welcome in Scotland, would you share a platform with him? I am not sure
:23:43. > :23:48.it would help his cause. He should think twice about that. During the
:23:49. > :23:52.independence referendum, we were overjoyed every time he made a foray
:23:53. > :23:56.into Scotland because we thought it ratcheted up votes for the
:23:57. > :24:02.independence campaign. My reasons for wanting to be in the EU a rather
:24:03. > :24:06.different to David Cameron's. If we appeal to our own strands of
:24:07. > :24:13.opinion, we will maximise the chances of a vote to stay in. Nicola
:24:14. > :24:15.Sturgeon, a friendly warning, thank you so much for joining us.
:24:16. > :24:18.Now to the weather, and it seems to be swinging rather wildly
:24:19. > :24:20.between deep winter and hints of spring, so what's in prospect
:24:21. > :24:24.Over to Jay Wynne in the weather studio.
:24:25. > :24:28.Thank you. It looks like there is more of the same. We started the day
:24:29. > :24:33.today with a massive temperature contrast across the United Kingdom,
:24:34. > :24:37.ten or 11 degrees first thing across the southern half. By the afternoon
:24:38. > :24:42.we will be up to 14 and in the south, but in the north, on the four
:24:43. > :24:47.degrees. They called air will win and we will be back to single
:24:48. > :24:50.figures by Mandy and choose to. On Wednesday, the dividing line is the
:24:51. > :24:59.weather front which is not moving fast. Wintry showers in Scotland.
:25:00. > :25:06.South of that, lots of cloud. Dry in the south-east, and milder across
:25:07. > :25:09.Wales and the Midlands. For the latter part of the afternoon, the
:25:10. > :25:14.weather front moves south. It will bring some rain with it. It will get
:25:15. > :25:19.stuck across the southern counties tomorrow. Rather Dampier, but for
:25:20. > :25:25.the Midlands North, we will see good spells of sunshine. Some showers
:25:26. > :25:30.dotted around, and the temperature around 7 degrees. A cold start to
:25:31. > :25:33.the day on Tuesday, with frost, and similar on Wednesday. Dry and bright
:25:34. > :25:39.weather through both days, with some showers dotted around. The emphasis
:25:40. > :25:43.on reasonable but chilly conditions. Many thanks.
:25:44. > :25:46.We don't yet know which of the groups in favour of Brexit
:25:47. > :25:48.will be chosen to lead the official out campaign.
:25:49. > :25:50.That's a decision for the Electoral Commission.
:25:51. > :25:52.Whatever happens, arguing the case at every opportunity,
:25:53. > :25:55.as he has been for more than a decade, will be Ukip's
:25:56. > :25:56.leader, Nigel Farage, and he's with me now.
:25:57. > :26:03.Good morning. Starters orders, we are. Whatever you think of the Prime
:26:04. > :26:07.Minister's deal, he has at least fought the good fight. Let's start
:26:08. > :26:12.by being generous. He has argued very hard, night after night he has
:26:13. > :26:17.been fighting the case. He did not ask for much, all here as this for
:26:18. > :26:21.minor changes to benefits, and a couple of promises that might go in
:26:22. > :26:24.the next treaty. The truth is they cannot deliver this deal because the
:26:25. > :26:28.European Parliament can strike down the benefits deal, and the European
:26:29. > :26:33.Court of Justice can rule out everything else. To say to people,
:26:34. > :26:37.vote for this deal in a referendum when you cannot guarantee delivering
:26:38. > :26:39.it seems to be a weak position. I think lots of people who did not
:26:40. > :27:06.vote Ukip, who do not know what they think
:27:07. > :27:09.about Europe, they will look at this deal and think, hold on, he has a
:27:10. > :27:11.four year tapered break for benefits on migrants. Nigel Farage as for a
:27:12. > :27:14.five-year one. He has got something on sending child benefit abroad.
:27:15. > :27:17.This is not the issue. We are paying over ?50 million a day in a
:27:18. > :27:21.membership fee. Nothing has been done to change that. The biggest
:27:22. > :27:25.issue is our Parliament and courts cannot strike down European law that
:27:26. > :27:29.is against our interests. Those are the issues that people will make
:27:30. > :27:37.their big decisions on in this referendum. Not the marginal issue
:27:38. > :27:39.of migrant benefits. Let's start with migration. You said the Prime
:27:40. > :27:42.Minister had been scaremongering when he suggested that the closure
:27:43. > :27:45.of the Caley camp would follow us leaving the EU, but the French
:27:46. > :27:50.interior Minister backed him up, as did the deputy mayor of Cali. If we
:27:51. > :27:54.left the EU, there would be no reason for the French to put up with
:27:55. > :27:59.this jungle on their side of their border. They would say, through the
:28:00. > :28:04.tunnel, or Hugo. If they come through the tunnel, we do not have
:28:05. > :28:07.to let people in. What was laughable about what the Prime Minister said,
:28:08. > :28:12.he suggested if people came through the tunnel and into the naked
:28:13. > :28:19.kingdom, they would set up camps. They would not, they would disburse.
:28:20. > :28:23.What would you do in the new order, post-charity-mac? Be much tougher on
:28:24. > :28:26.who could come into the country. I want us to have an still in style
:28:27. > :28:32.points system. Let's have immigration that is based on merit.
:28:33. > :28:37.Let's stop discriminating against the Commonwealth in favour of
:28:38. > :28:42.Bulgaria or Rumania. That is what it out of ten British people want.
:28:43. > :28:46.Let's go back to the real gritty practicalities. We have left the EU,
:28:47. > :28:51.the French have no reason to stop people going across the EU, people
:28:52. > :28:55.are pouring in from Africa and the Middle East, they want to be in
:28:56. > :29:00.Britain for all sorts of reasons. The French have a tunnel, ports,
:29:01. > :29:04.vessels, they just arrive. What do we do? We honour the principles of
:29:05. > :29:09.the Geneva Convention and say to anyone trying to claim asylum in
:29:10. > :29:13.Britain, sorry, you have to claim that in the last safe country you
:29:14. > :29:17.came through. It is not difficult, you just need a tough British
:29:18. > :29:22.government. People would still come through in large numbers, would we
:29:23. > :29:26.build a camp in Kent? We would not build one anyway -- anywhere. We
:29:27. > :29:30.would not block up the tunnel. Lots of business comes through the
:29:31. > :29:35.tunnel. We would make it clear that if they come, they would be sent
:29:36. > :29:42.back. You're not allowed in, it is simple. Again, on the subject of
:29:43. > :29:45.what happens after I Brexit, we are unclear about the process. The Prime
:29:46. > :29:49.Minister has said there would be turmoil and turbulence. We have
:29:50. > :29:54.heard all that. It would take two years to negotiate the terms of our
:29:55. > :29:58.exit, so there would be two years of uncertainty. Two years of complete
:29:59. > :30:02.and -- complete certainty. Everything would continue as normal
:30:03. > :30:07.during the negotiations, but we would not have to accept any new
:30:08. > :30:11.European laws. What is important is not the speed, it is getting it
:30:12. > :30:16.right. That is what matters to people. During that time we will be
:30:17. > :30:19.completely protected. What the Prime Minister Larayedh is saying today,
:30:20. > :30:23.and making it clear in the Sunday Times, he says we would not be able
:30:24. > :30:25.to access the single market, unless we accepted the free movement of
:30:26. > :30:37.people. That is completely untrue. The Norwegians and the Swiss... The
:30:38. > :30:40.Norwegians voted against joining the European Union and against the will
:30:41. > :30:43.of the Norwegian people a Norwegian government signed them up to
:30:44. > :30:46.Schengen and there is a clamour for Norway to come out of showing. If
:30:47. > :30:50.you think about trade across the world, the deals America has, the
:30:51. > :30:55.deals even the European Union has nowhere in the world do people say
:30:56. > :31:00.that a trade freely you have to have free movement of people, it is a
:31:01. > :31:04.complete red herring. Except up to now the EU itself has tried Tidemand
:31:05. > :31:08.the free movement of people and a price tag for getting into their
:31:09. > :31:13.markets. Know it has not. The EU has trade deals across other parts of
:31:14. > :31:20.the world which bear no membership fee and no free movement of people.
:31:21. > :31:25.-- tried to demand. R2 exceptions, Swiss land and Norway. Norway sells
:31:26. > :31:31.a vast amount of its goods overseas, 75% to the European marketplace. And
:31:32. > :31:37.pays money directly to poor countries in Eastern Europe. Let's
:31:38. > :31:40.move on to countries that are much bigger, Canada which has a trade
:31:41. > :31:45.deal which took seven deals to negotiate. You are absolutely right.
:31:46. > :31:49.The idea that are elected European Commissioner should make our trade
:31:50. > :31:52.deals on our behalf -- and unelected European Commissioner, in a modern
:31:53. > :31:56.global economy is crackers. We should make our own deals. The Swiss
:31:57. > :32:01.make their own trade deals and have more free trade agreements around
:32:02. > :32:03.the world than we do because they do it for themselves and their
:32:04. > :32:08.interests. If it seven years to negotiate a trade deal, that would
:32:09. > :32:14.be a difficult seven years for British exports. Iceland has 300,000
:32:15. > :32:19.people. The Prime Minister will tell you later we are too small to
:32:20. > :32:22.negotiate our own trade deals. We're not big enough. Perhaps he doesn't
:32:23. > :32:27.think we are good enough. Iceland negotiated their own free-trade deal
:32:28. > :32:30.with China. If Iceland can do it I'm certain that the world's fifth
:32:31. > :32:34.biggest economy can do it. To win the referendum you have to win over
:32:35. > :32:37.people who are not particularly obsessed what interested in the EU
:32:38. > :32:44.issue will stop in the end I suspect it will come down to eight visceral
:32:45. > :32:47.feeling, -- a visceral feeling. It will come down to those people who
:32:48. > :32:52.think on balance it is safer to be in. Nigel Farage and others will say
:32:53. > :32:56.it will be fine, crossed fingers, come with us. It's the unknown, we
:32:57. > :32:59.don't know the kind of Britain we will be if we leave and we don't
:33:00. > :33:04.understand and have a picture in our head of what it will be like. It is
:33:05. > :33:08.safer to stay in. The Prime Minister says it is a leap in the dark but
:33:09. > :33:11.let me shed some light on it, if we vote to leave the European Union
:33:12. > :33:16.there is one certainty, we will be in charge of our own country, make
:33:17. > :33:19.our own laws, run our own ministerial departments. Michael
:33:20. > :33:24.Gove's, yesterday that everyday ministers are told, sorry, Minister,
:33:25. > :33:27.you can't do this, it's against EU rules, shows the extent to which
:33:28. > :33:32.we've given away control of our own future. We will be in charge. If we
:33:33. > :33:36.vote in to remain, in a union whose currency is failing, whose migrant
:33:37. > :33:42.crisis has led according to the chief of Europol this week, to up to
:33:43. > :33:46.5000 Islamist extremists coming into Europe in the space of the last year
:33:47. > :33:49.and we will be part of a Europe that wants Turkey to be a member within
:33:50. > :33:56.five years. You mentioned Michael Gove. Would you accept you are a
:33:57. > :33:59.divisive or a Marmite politician? That is the talk in Westminster and
:34:00. > :34:04.the talk amongst the Tories. If you look at the research and polling
:34:05. > :34:07.into this those people that believe in the European project and the free
:34:08. > :34:11.movement of people, the more I appear on programmes like this the
:34:12. > :34:14.more upset they get and the more they dislike me. Angst the undecided
:34:15. > :34:20.voters I have a potentially positive affect. -- amongst the undecided
:34:21. > :34:23.voters. They will listen to what I have to say in the referendum
:34:24. > :34:28.campaign. The truth is, there are only half a dozen people in the
:34:29. > :34:33.referendum campaign who can shape public opinion and I'm one of them.
:34:34. > :34:36.It's not about one person. Let's move onto two people because the
:34:37. > :34:39.photograph of you and George Galloway, enemies on the other side
:34:40. > :34:43.of the ultimate say that's the best recruiting poster they could have,
:34:44. > :34:47.it goes back to Tony Benn and Enoch Powell and the impression of
:34:48. > :34:50.incoherence. Back in the 70s there were very few political or public
:34:51. > :34:56.figures that appeared on no platforms. On that night the Respect
:34:57. > :35:00.Party were on the platform and so were the Conservative Party,
:35:01. > :35:04.ruefully the economist, so was a taxi driver, so William Cash, Kate
:35:05. > :35:07.Hoey who was here this morning. The point about Grassroots Out is
:35:08. > :35:11.bringing people together from across the spectrum. I don't think there is
:35:12. > :35:14.a single domestic policy, in many cases foreign policy, on which
:35:15. > :35:19.George Galloway and I would agree, he has said is obliging things about
:35:20. > :35:23.me. I have got one here. Andrew, sometimes in life and issue comes
:35:24. > :35:25.along that is bigger than traditional differences and this
:35:26. > :35:29.question of getting back control of our country, living in a democracy,
:35:30. > :35:32.means what we have done in Grassroots Out is we have cast aside
:35:33. > :35:37.previous quarrels and differences and we will work together. Is there
:35:38. > :35:42.a line to be drawn in terms of this broad coalition? If the English
:35:43. > :35:45.Defence League, or Britain first wanted to join, would you have them?
:35:46. > :35:48.I don't think we would for one moment and if the British National
:35:49. > :35:52.Party still existed that would have given us a problem but we would have
:35:53. > :35:56.said no. I'm sure we would have said no. We have got one of the most
:35:57. > :36:00.broadly -based coalitions that has ever been seen in produce politics,
:36:01. > :36:05.we want to work with everybody and we have to reach out to large parts
:36:06. > :36:09.of this country. However controversial George Galloway is, he
:36:10. > :36:13.does speak to a large Muslim community in Britain, he speaks to
:36:14. > :36:17.people at the moment who are on the remain in side and it will be a big
:36:18. > :36:20.team effort. Final question, do you hope later today Boris will join
:36:21. > :36:25.your side and would you like to see him as one of the leaders of the
:36:26. > :36:28.brakes? Absolutely, he's one of the half a dozen people who reaches out
:36:29. > :36:33.to a large number of voters and we'd love to see BoGo is the headline
:36:34. > :36:34.tomorrow, that would be great. You are fingers crossed.
:36:35. > :36:38.In a moment, I'll be talking to the Prime Minister -
:36:39. > :36:41.but first, a quick look at what's coming up on BBC One,
:36:42. > :36:48.Join us live from Cambridge at 10am when we will ask if the Catholic
:36:49. > :36:52.Church is serious about confronting child abuse. We have Pete Saunders,
:36:53. > :36:56.the leading campaigner sidelined from the Pope's commission. With NHS
:36:57. > :37:01.bed blocking a major problem, should we be doing more to care for our
:37:02. > :37:06.elderly relatives. And atheism, is it the rational choice? We will see
:37:07. > :37:08.you at 10am on BBC One. The Prime Minister said yesterday that as a
:37:09. > :37:14.result the toughest deal that UK would be safer, stronger and better
:37:15. > :37:15.off within Europe -- as a result of his deal.
:37:16. > :37:18.But he hasn't convinced all his Cabinet colleagues -
:37:19. > :37:20.or, yet, the Mayor of London, Boris Johnon.
:37:21. > :37:22.So David Cameron is working on another plan, to entrench
:37:23. > :37:28.win over the millions of people in the referendum. You must be very
:37:29. > :37:34.tired. I had a decent night's sleep and it
:37:35. > :37:37.was important work. I want to go through some of the detail of the
:37:38. > :37:42.work but before we do, 2 million people watching and probably Boris
:37:43. > :37:45.Johnson, can you tell them why they should vote to stay in the EU
:37:46. > :37:50.despite the things they have heard against? I want what is best for
:37:51. > :37:54.Britain and what is best for Britain is staying in a reformed European
:37:55. > :37:56.Union because we will be better off safeguarding our position in this
:37:57. > :38:00.massive single free market we have in Europe, I think we will be
:38:01. > :38:03.stronger in the world being able to get things done, whether that is
:38:04. > :38:07.making sure our country is safe and our people are safe and I think we
:38:08. > :38:11.will fight terrorism and criminality better and we will be safer in the
:38:12. > :38:15.EU because we can work with our partners, strength in numbers in a
:38:16. > :38:19.dangerous world. That I think is a positive choice, whereas I think a
:38:20. > :38:23.leap in the dark with uncertainty already in our world, why take a
:38:24. > :38:27.further risk? You don't need to, we have a better deal now. In terms of
:38:28. > :38:31.the detail of the deal you promised before the election that no children
:38:32. > :38:36.of EU migrants would be getting benefits as a result, you have not
:38:37. > :38:39.got that, have you? What we have got, which I think it's a big
:38:40. > :38:42.achievement, new arrivals will get child benefit, not that British
:38:43. > :38:46.rates but at a rate that reflects the cost of living in their country,
:38:47. > :38:51.and for existing people here over the next few years we will move to a
:38:52. > :38:54.system where they get the lower rate of child benefit too. These are
:38:55. > :38:59.things that many people thought were impossible to achieve, not least
:39:00. > :39:01.your last guest on the programme who argued for welfare restrictions,
:39:02. > :39:05.said they were very important and now we've got them seems to say they
:39:06. > :39:10.are irrelevant. We will come onto that later. I want to establish in
:39:11. > :39:13.terms of clarity and being honest to people watching, what you wanted in
:39:14. > :39:16.the manifesto you have not quite achieved on child benefits. You said
:39:17. > :39:20.no children, however long they had worked and however long they had
:39:21. > :39:24.been here, not at all. I'm happy to look at the manifesto and what we
:39:25. > :39:28.promised, getting out of ever closer union, would got out of ever closer
:39:29. > :39:32.union. It is a negotiation. You can see in each case what I asked for
:39:33. > :39:36.and what we got. We got many things that people said were simply not
:39:37. > :39:40.achievable. Nigel Farage and others said you will never get Britain out
:39:41. > :39:45.of ever closer union and we have. This means the best of both worlds.
:39:46. > :39:48.We will come back to that. We are out of the things we don't want to
:39:49. > :39:53.be in, the euro, the no Borders agreement and the ever closer union
:39:54. > :39:56.but we keep full access and say over the single market and political
:39:57. > :40:02.Corporation to keep our country safe. Sticking with benefits, the
:40:03. > :40:05.same is true, we didn't get what we wanted on child benefit and the
:40:06. > :40:08.overall benefit package for EU migrants coming in because it was
:40:09. > :40:12.going to be four years of nothing and now it's four years of tapered
:40:13. > :40:15.increasing benefits. That's right, what we said we wanted was you
:40:16. > :40:18.should not get something for nothing, you have to pay into the
:40:19. > :40:22.system before getting something out of it and you won't get full access
:40:23. > :40:28.to the inner work benefits system for four years. What I've achieved
:40:29. > :40:33.that is even stronger is this mechanism will last for seven years.
:40:34. > :40:37.Let's say we get it in place in 2017, it will still be operating in
:40:38. > :40:43.2024 and people won't be getting full benefits until 2028. They will
:40:44. > :40:47.be getting some. Imagine me as a Hungarian arriving in this country,
:40:48. > :40:52.how long do I have to work here before getting any benefits at all?
:40:53. > :40:58.If you come here, even in 2024 you are not going to get full access to
:40:59. > :41:02.the in work benefits until 2028. You say the full benefits, how long
:41:03. > :41:05.until I get anything? We have set out that you will get nothing to
:41:06. > :41:08.start with and you don't get full access until after four years, and
:41:09. > :41:14.now we have to settle the details and put that in place, which we
:41:15. > :41:17.will. You don't actually know? You will get something? You get no
:41:18. > :41:22.benefits to start with and you don't get full access for four years.
:41:23. > :41:25.Everyone has to pay in before they get out. Something people said we
:41:26. > :41:31.would not achieved on something that has been achieved. Sorry, so far as
:41:32. > :41:36.you are aware now, after six months, I could get 90% of benefits? No, it
:41:37. > :41:41.will be phased over four years. We don't know the phases. We will
:41:42. > :41:44.settle all of that later, but it's an important move because people
:41:45. > :41:47.want a country where there is no something for nothing, you don't
:41:48. > :41:50.come here and immediately claim benefits, you must pay in first and
:41:51. > :41:56.I think this is important. The benefits deal is is complicated
:41:57. > :41:59.because we will pay a proportion of benefits paid in 27 different
:42:00. > :42:03.countries at different rates at different times. For a work and
:42:04. > :42:07.pensions department struggling to introduce Universal Credit for six
:42:08. > :42:11.years, is this plausible? It is absolutely doable, it's not a
:42:12. > :42:14.difficult calculation, you just have to work out the relative cost of
:42:15. > :42:18.living in different countries and therefore paid that level of child
:42:19. > :42:21.benefit. Iain Duncan-Smith agrees with this, does he? This is all
:42:22. > :42:25.deliverable otherwise I wouldn't have agreed to it and I think it
:42:26. > :42:28.meets what we set out in our manifesto and the commitments we
:42:29. > :42:32.made. I would make this point because it was interesting listening
:42:33. > :42:37.to Nigel Farage. If we were to leave the EU and tried to insist on full
:42:38. > :42:41.access to the single market like Norway has for instance, every other
:42:42. > :42:44.country that has got that sort of deal has had to accept the free
:42:45. > :42:49.movement of people and a contribution to the EU budget. He
:42:50. > :42:53.says that is in the not true. I will come onto that but it would be
:42:54. > :42:56.ironic if we left the EU, negotiated our way back into full access for
:42:57. > :43:01.the single market, and then wouldn't be able to exercise these welfare
:43:02. > :43:04.restrictions I have just negotiated. What Nigel Farage was saying, and of
:43:05. > :43:09.course this is important, there is the option of having a trade deal
:43:10. > :43:12.with the EU. You can look at all of the trade deals and they do not
:43:13. > :43:15.cover every industry, this is crucial. Canada has done quite a
:43:16. > :43:20.good one. It hasn't been finished and has been going for seven years
:43:21. > :43:23.and this goes to the heart of the document, if we remain in a reformed
:43:24. > :43:28.EU you know what you will get, you know how to do business, create jobs
:43:29. > :43:31.and continue with our economic recovery. If we leave, seven years
:43:32. > :43:35.potentially of uncertainty, and at the end of the process you still
:43:36. > :43:40.can't be certain that our businesses will have full access to the market,
:43:41. > :43:45.so it could cost jobs, it could mean overseas businesses not investing in
:43:46. > :43:49.Britain. It would be a step into the dark and real risk and uncertainty
:43:50. > :43:53.and that's the last thing we need in our country. When it comes to a lot
:43:54. > :43:56.of people on the other side of the document the fundamental question is
:43:57. > :44:00.sovereignty. Can you look me or the camera in the eye and say as a
:44:01. > :44:05.result of this negotiation Britain has control over her own laws?
:44:06. > :44:09.Absolutely. What we have got is getting out of ever closer union so
:44:10. > :44:13.we are best of both worlds. I will come onto the sovereignty question
:44:14. > :44:17.because it is important. We are going to be in the single market, in
:44:18. > :44:20.political Corporation to keep the world and people safe. But out of
:44:21. > :44:24.the projects we don't like them out of the euro and no Borders
:44:25. > :44:28.agreement. On sovereignty, of course if Britain were to leave the EU that
:44:29. > :44:32.might give you a feeling of sovereignty but you have to ask
:44:33. > :44:36.yourself, is it real? Would you have the power to help businesses to make
:44:37. > :44:40.sure they were not discriminated against in Europe? You would not.
:44:41. > :44:43.Would you have the power to insist European countries share a border
:44:44. > :45:21.information with us so that we know what terrorists and criminals
:45:22. > :45:28.The big truth about this is that the old EU, with its treaties, the
:45:29. > :45:34.Lisbon Treaty, the NICE treaty, all the rest of them, or hanging our
:45:35. > :45:39.laws, it is an overcentralised, massive plundering machine. It
:45:40. > :45:45.carries on. Because we are under those treaties, we carry on under
:45:46. > :45:51.it? We are not only out of the euro, we are out of the no Borders
:45:52. > :45:54.agreement and ever closer union. This depends upon a treaty of
:45:55. > :45:58.undefined scope at an undefined time, and with new leaders we do not
:45:59. > :46:03.even know about. It is taken on trust. First of all, what was agreed
:46:04. > :46:09.by 20 prime ministers and presidents, every EU country on
:46:10. > :46:14.Friday evening, that in itself is an international law decision, a treaty
:46:15. > :46:18.that will be deposited at the UN. It is legally binding and irreversible.
:46:19. > :46:25.It can be reversed if all 28 countries, including me, say, we do
:46:26. > :46:29.not want this any more. That is what John Major said in 1992 when the
:46:30. > :46:33.Danes got there are legally binding irreversible agreement which was
:46:34. > :46:39.then destroyed. The Danish had the protocol to give them some special
:46:40. > :46:47.status in the EU. 23 years on that special status continues. It has
:46:48. > :46:53.survived. Not only have 20 countries made is legally binding decision, we
:46:54. > :46:56.also have, in two vital areas, the commitment to treaty change, to
:46:57. > :46:59.carve Britain out of ever closer union. Wearing the bits of Europe we
:47:00. > :47:05.want to be in but out of those we do not want to be in. Crucially, and
:47:06. > :47:09.this is a more technical issue, but it is hard, they lose a treaty
:47:10. > :47:14.change to make sure that not only we can keep our currency forever, but
:47:15. > :47:18.also the pound and our businesses cannot be discriminated against in
:47:19. > :47:23.Europe. This is important, because to me, the weakness of the leave
:47:24. > :47:28.campaign is they forget that even if you leave, the EU still exists, it
:47:29. > :47:32.is on your doorstep. What I want with this deal is to make sure we
:47:33. > :47:37.can never be discriminated against. Leave the EU and your businesses and
:47:38. > :47:42.financial services can be discriminated against. That is not
:47:43. > :47:45.much you can do about that. Meanwhile we are under supreme EU
:47:46. > :47:50.law. I know Michael Gove is a friend of yours and you must be
:47:51. > :47:54.disappointed by his decision, what he has put things very clearly with
:47:55. > :47:57.characteristic crispness. He says that our membership of the EU
:47:58. > :48:02.prevents us from being able to change massive swathes of law, and
:48:03. > :48:05.stops us being able to choose who makes critical decisions which
:48:06. > :48:09.affect all our lives, laws which govern citizens in this country are
:48:10. > :48:14.decided by politicians from other nations who we never elected and
:48:15. > :48:19.cannot throw out. He is absolutely right, isn't he? On the sovereignty
:48:20. > :48:21.issue, we should stand back from moment and recognise that the
:48:22. > :48:28.referendum is an enormous act of British sovereignty, British people
:48:29. > :48:31.saying, let's make a choice. The second point, sovereignty really
:48:32. > :48:36.means, I you able to get things done, to change things?
:48:37. > :48:40.THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE What about supreme law? If you
:48:41. > :48:45.cannot give your businesses access to European markets and keep your
:48:46. > :48:49.people safe, if you cannot insist on passenger information, the terrorist
:48:50. > :48:52.information we need, you are not more in charge of your destiny,
:48:53. > :48:58.you're less in charge of your destiny. There is this crucial
:48:59. > :49:01.point, if you leave the EU and then wonderful, unimpeded access to the
:49:02. > :49:06.single market, the other countries who have got that have had to sign
:49:07. > :49:10.up to all the rules of the EU without having a say. After your
:49:11. > :49:13.negotiation in Brussels, you suggested you were going to
:49:14. > :49:17.introduce some new mechanism or law in this country to enhance
:49:18. > :49:21.sovereignty. Are you? Yes, we are going to set out in the coming days
:49:22. > :49:24.proposals that I think I have announced before on this programme,
:49:25. > :49:29.to make clear that the British Parliament is sovereign. We have
:49:30. > :49:33.chosen to join the EU and we can choose to leave the EU. It is
:49:34. > :49:38.important work to put that down. Does it matter so long as we are
:49:39. > :49:43.under the treaties? There is no lot this Parliament to pass that gets us
:49:44. > :49:50.out of those treaties. What you can do is put beyond doubt in people's
:49:51. > :49:54.minds. For a lot of people, this is important. It is an act of
:49:55. > :49:59.sovereignty, holding the referendum. It is important for people to know
:50:00. > :50:05.that in the end, what our Parliament does, our Parliament cannot undo. It
:50:06. > :50:09.is sovereign. I am passionate and love the institutions, the
:50:10. > :50:14.Constitution we have in our country. I do not love the institutions of
:50:15. > :50:18.Brussels, but I may go clear determination, what will make
:50:19. > :50:23.Britain stronger, what will make us safer, what will enable us to
:50:24. > :50:27.protect our people? It is to get the best of both worlds in this amended
:50:28. > :50:32.EU. Is it possible to give more powers to Supreme Court to somehow
:50:33. > :50:37.keep back the ever encroaching world of the European Court of Justice,
:50:38. > :50:42.which is Michael Gove says, ministers sit there and they see
:50:43. > :50:46.this legislation coming across their desks and they are told they cannot
:50:47. > :50:50.do anything about it? Countries with written constitutions have sometimes
:50:51. > :50:55.been able to not only assert the sovereignty of their own parliament,
:50:56. > :51:00.but to go further and say that those constitutional principles have to be
:51:01. > :51:04.taken into account. You're trying to get me to pre-empt this on your
:51:05. > :51:09.programme but you will have to wait. I will as Q1 easy question about
:51:10. > :51:12.this. Are you suggesting we need a written constitution in this
:51:13. > :51:16.country? I am not making that argument. We should not have to do
:51:17. > :51:20.that in order to give to ourselves what some other countries have
:51:21. > :51:24.managed. You will have to wait for the detailed proposals but I think
:51:25. > :51:28.they are important. Let's turn to the politics of this, not only
:51:29. > :51:34.Michael Gove, one of your closest friends, has come out on the other
:51:35. > :51:46.side. Boris Johnson, who is watching this interview, all the drumbeats
:51:47. > :51:48.seem to say he is going to the Brexit side as well. The
:51:49. > :51:51.Conservative Party, right to the top, is deeply split on this? We had
:51:52. > :51:53.a very civilised cabinet meeting in which the people around the table
:51:54. > :52:00.agreed that the deal made in Brussels was a good deal. 23 of 29
:52:01. > :52:04.agreed that Britain is better off in a reformed European Union. People
:52:05. > :52:08.like Michael and Iain Duncan Smith, all their political lives,
:52:09. > :52:12.particularly Michael, they have believed that Britain would be
:52:13. > :52:16.better off outside the EU. That is why we have this position in place
:52:17. > :52:20.that people can campaign in a personal capacity. I am sad that a
:52:21. > :52:27.close friend will be on a different side of this are given, but we
:52:28. > :52:31.respect each other's positions. We will make the case accordingly. As
:52:32. > :52:34.to Boris... Talk to him directly. I would say to Boris what I say to
:52:35. > :52:41.everyone else, that we will be safer, stronger, better off inside
:52:42. > :52:44.the EU. The prospect of linking arms with Nigel Farage and George
:52:45. > :52:49.Galloway and taking a leap into the dark is the wrong step for a
:52:50. > :52:53.country. If Boris and others really care about being able to get things
:52:54. > :53:00.done in our world, the EU is one of the ways we get them done. We are
:53:01. > :53:05.members of Nato, the UN, the IMF, I kid about Britain being able to fix
:53:06. > :53:08.things. Whether it is stopping pirates of the African coast,
:53:09. > :53:12.closing down a legal migration routes, closing down smugglers,
:53:13. > :53:16.standing up to Vladimir Putin with sanctions, whether it is the
:53:17. > :53:21.sanctions we put in place to get Iran to abandon its nuclear
:53:22. > :53:27.programme, having that seat at the table in the EU, just as being a
:53:28. > :53:30.member of Nato as a vital way of protecting our value, powers and
:53:31. > :53:34.influence in the world. I do not see this as an exercise of national
:53:35. > :53:38.vanity. This is about national interest. Britain is the fifth
:53:39. > :53:43.largest economy in the world. We can succeed whatever we do. But having
:53:44. > :53:47.sat here as Prime Minister for six years, if you ask me of we will be
:53:48. > :53:55.safer and stronger and better off in or out, I say we will be better off
:53:56. > :53:59.in. I will argue that for the next five months. If the British people
:54:00. > :54:03.make a different position, I will do everything in my power to
:54:04. > :54:07.implemented as best I can. But I am clear this is the right thing for
:54:08. > :54:11.Britain to do. You have tried very hard on this negotiation. It is
:54:12. > :54:17.beginning to look like behind you did was a coordinated campaign of
:54:18. > :54:21.Brexit, people working against you. Do you feel in any sense betrayed?
:54:22. > :54:31.Knives on your back as you head back through the tunnel? Not at all. The
:54:32. > :54:37.cabinet meeting yesterday was very productive. Everyone back to the
:54:38. > :54:42.dealer and the date. It is undeniable we will be able to stop
:54:43. > :54:47.people's welfare benefits, it is undeniable we are out of ever closer
:54:48. > :54:51.union. A crucial point, we will keep currency and British firms can never
:54:52. > :54:55.be discriminated against while there is a parallel -- parallel currency
:54:56. > :55:00.of the euro. In the Conservative Party, as in the Labour Party, and
:55:01. > :55:05.you have heard from Kate Hoey, some people believe we will be better off
:55:06. > :55:18.out. I think it is a risk, a leap in the dark, and it would weaken our
:55:19. > :55:21.ability to get things done, are sovereignty. The choice is not very
:55:22. > :55:25.far away. If we do leave the EU, if Brexit happens, these are dangerous
:55:26. > :55:31.times economically. What happens to the rest of the EU? Does it carry on
:55:32. > :55:35.unchanged? It would lose one of its strongest players. It would lose the
:55:36. > :55:39.country that argues the most for free trade deals and the single
:55:40. > :55:44.market. It would not go away. In a way, this is one of the weaknesses
:55:45. > :55:49.of the case for leaving. Patrick McLoughlin pitted brilliantly
:55:50. > :55:54.Cabinet yesterday. He said in the way only he can, I would love to
:55:55. > :56:00.live in Utopia as well, but I have a feeling that when we get to Utopia,
:56:01. > :56:04.the EU will still be there. This is a hard-headed calculation about what
:56:05. > :56:10.is best for British people, how do we safeguard jobs and livelihoods,
:56:11. > :56:13.how do we fight terrorism, how do we make sure that we are strong in the
:56:14. > :56:19.West in a dangerous world, in a world where you have Vladimir Putin
:56:20. > :56:24.to the East, and Isil to the south. You stay strong by sticking with
:56:25. > :56:28.your neighbouring countries, your partners and friends. The
:56:29. > :56:33.organisation is not perfect. It has got better. What can be done to
:56:34. > :56:38.improve it. But if you leave the EU, the EU. Reforming, and probably get
:56:39. > :56:45.worse, and that would impact does badly. If we are outside the EU, the
:56:46. > :56:48.euro goes on as a currency. Let me take you back to this unhappy
:56:49. > :56:54.prospect of Britain voting to leave the EU. Everything is on a knife
:56:55. > :56:57.edge, no one knows what is going to happen. Lasting, I asked you if you
:56:58. > :57:03.would stay on as Prime Minister, and you said, you bet. If that happens,
:57:04. > :57:08.you would go down in history as the man who got Britain out of the EU
:57:09. > :57:14.against your own will. That would be catastrophic? I stood, and the
:57:15. > :57:20.Conservative Party stood, or in a clear manifesto. We would have a
:57:21. > :57:23.renegotiation and have a referendum. We are meeting those conditions. The
:57:24. > :57:28.renegotiation is complete, after exhaustive work, travelling across
:57:29. > :57:33.Europe to every single Prime Minister Larayedh president, getting
:57:34. > :57:37.a better deal for Britain. No we meet the promise to have the
:57:38. > :57:40.referendum. The people of our country will make a sovereign
:57:41. > :57:43.decision. They will instruct the Prime Minister Larayedh to stay in a
:57:44. > :57:49.reformed European Union and fight for the interests of Britain that
:57:50. > :57:51.way, or to leave. I will need their instruction and answer their
:57:52. > :57:59.instruction, whatever it is. That is my job. Michael Gove, Boris Johnson,
:58:00. > :58:04.Zac Goldsmith, they are falling away one by one. Not at all. The
:58:05. > :58:08.overwhelming majority of the Cabinet thinks we are better off to remain
:58:09. > :58:11.in European Union. I am sure somebody will try and painted as the
:58:12. > :58:16.establishment against the rebel Alliance. We do not get much more
:58:17. > :58:21.establishment than the Lord Chancellor and the leader of the
:58:22. > :58:24.house of Corbyn -- House of Commons. I have many things to say about
:58:25. > :58:30.Jeremy Corbyn, but I would not describe him as being a member of
:58:31. > :58:35.the establishment. On my side will be the Liberal Democrats, the Green
:58:36. > :58:39.party, trade unionists. I do happy about this? Yes, because this
:58:40. > :58:45.question is so much bigger than any political party or politician. It is
:58:46. > :58:48.about the future of country for our children and grandchildren. What
:58:49. > :58:57.sort of country do we want to live in. I would say, let us have a big,
:58:58. > :59:00.bold Britain, doing great things in the world, making a strongest --
:59:01. > :59:01.stronger, more prosperous and safer. Thank you very much indeed, Prime
:59:02. > :59:01.Minister. That's all we have
:59:02. > :59:03.time for this morning. Thanks to the Prime Minister
:59:04. > :59:05.and all my guests. On the Sunday Politics in an hour,
:59:06. > :59:08.Jo Coburn will be talking to the pro-Brexit Cabinet
:59:09. > :59:10.minister Chris Grayling, and the Shadow Foreign
:59:11. > :59:12.Secretary, Hilary Benn. Join me again at the same time
:59:13. > :59:15.next week, but for now, For waking us up...
:59:16. > :59:45.CHRIS EVANS: Good morning, friends. For not just watching,
:59:46. > :59:51.but living too.