:00:00. > :00:09.Leading Tories who want us out of the European Union
:00:10. > :00:11.are now in no doubt about the Prime Minister's anger.
:00:12. > :00:14.He thumped Boris in the Commons and Michael Gove has
:00:15. > :00:44.I'm joined today by Iain Duncan Smith.
:00:45. > :00:47.On the EU, he's one of David Cameron's sternest
:00:48. > :00:50.But we mustn't think of this as simply a Tory Story.
:00:51. > :00:53.Angela Eagle, one of Jeremy Corbyn's big hitters, is strongly pro-EU.
:00:54. > :01:05.Can she really claim the same for her leader?
:01:06. > :01:10.No hit TV series in recent years has been
:01:11. > :01:12.as radical and surprising as prison drama
:01:13. > :01:16.If you know it, you'll know who I mean by Crazy Eyes.
:01:17. > :01:21.Uzo Aduba is now in London in a gritty play and I've been
:01:22. > :01:26.talking to her about among other things Donald Trump.
:01:27. > :01:33.And our review of the papers - hold on, how relevant are papers
:01:34. > :01:36.Buzzfeed is a key source of digital journalism
:01:37. > :01:38.and its political editor Jim Waterson joins us,
:01:39. > :01:44.And yet this week we get a new newspaper -
:01:45. > :01:47.The New Day - it's Editor Alison Phillips is here and waving the flag
:01:48. > :01:50.for what we used to call Fleet Street, Tom Newton Dunn
:01:51. > :02:01.The Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny has admitted that the coalition
:02:02. > :02:02.government has lost the general election.
:02:03. > :02:05.Exit polls indicate that Fine Gael has suffered heavy losses
:02:06. > :02:09.Weeks of negotiations are now expected before a new
:02:10. > :02:16.Our Ireland Correspondent Chris Buckler reports.
:02:17. > :02:22.Across Ireland the Celtic although is still to be completed. While it
:02:23. > :02:30.is unclear who all of the winners are the Irish Prime Minister knows
:02:31. > :02:38.his party Fine Gael is in danger of losing its grip on power. -- across
:02:39. > :02:42.Ireland all of the counting is still to be completed. We don't know the
:02:43. > :02:45.figures for all of the other parties and groupings yet. I need to know
:02:46. > :02:49.that before I decide what is the best thing to do, given my
:02:50. > :02:54.responsibility and duty. There has been a significant protest vote
:02:55. > :02:57.against the two government parties. That has meant success for
:02:58. > :03:04.independent, and the austerity, and colourful candidates. Sinn Fein has
:03:05. > :03:08.made gains, becoming a force in politics in the Republic. One thing
:03:09. > :03:12.is for certain, this change will continue. There isn't a progressive
:03:13. > :03:17.government elected this time. It is only a matter of time before one is.
:03:18. > :03:21.The main opposition party, whose support collapse at the last
:03:22. > :03:25.election, has gone better-than-expected. But with a
:03:26. > :03:29.vote between new rivals, small parties, and independent candidates,
:03:30. > :03:31.it is not clear how a stable government how all will be formed.
:03:32. > :03:36.Hillary Clinton has won a resounding victory in the race to become
:03:37. > :03:40.the Democratic presidential candidate.
:03:41. > :03:42.She easily beat her rival Bernie Sanders in the South Carolina
:03:43. > :03:47.The win puts her in a strong position ahead of this week's
:03:48. > :03:52.Super Tuesday contests, when 11 states declare their results.
:03:53. > :03:58.Reports are coming in of air strikes in northern Syria a day after a deal
:03:59. > :04:01.to halt the fighting came into effect. Several areas near the
:04:02. > :04:05.northern city of Aleppo are said to have been attacked. It is not clear
:04:06. > :04:10.which groups were targeted. Russia had said it would continue to bomb
:04:11. > :04:17.designated terrorist groups during the truce. IS militants and the
:04:18. > :04:21.Al-Qaeda leader linked al-Nusra are not part of the deal.
:04:22. > :04:24.Britain's most senior civil servant is being summoned by MPs to explain
:04:25. > :04:26.why cabinet ministers who oppose EU membership are being denied access
:04:27. > :04:30.Last week, Sir Jeremy Heywood issued guidance saying the Civil Service
:04:31. > :04:33.would support the government in making the case for the UK
:04:34. > :04:39.He's been called to explain this position to the cross-party
:04:40. > :04:43.Stars of the screen will be taking to the red carpet later,
:04:44. > :04:47.This year's ceremony has been over-shadowed by the controversy
:04:48. > :04:58.The film, The Revenant is the front-runner,
:04:59. > :05:00.with nominations in 12 categories, including Leonardo DiCaprio
:05:01. > :05:05.I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.
:05:06. > :05:16.It may also win longest film category. All British journalists
:05:17. > :05:20.have been beaten about the head to make the referendum interesting and
:05:21. > :05:24.exciting. A good job on the front of The Mail on Sunday. Boris Johnson's
:05:25. > :05:31.sister Rachel telling the story about the conversion, tennis,
:05:32. > :05:37.triples, and British bangers. It is a very good read. And the headline
:05:38. > :05:46.is dramatic. It means Philip Hammond has been marketed as obliging about
:05:47. > :05:50.civil cash. Slightly over the top. Brexit would spark a decade of
:05:51. > :05:55.economic limbo. It sounds rather calm and reassuring, on the front of
:05:56. > :06:00.the Observer. Tory threat to oust the Prime Minister on the front of
:06:01. > :06:05.the Sunday Times. We will be talking about that with Tom Newton Dunn and
:06:06. > :06:09.others. The Sunday Telegraph as Iain Duncan Smith, who will be joining me
:06:10. > :06:14.shortly, and David Cameron, who was here last week, making their case.
:06:15. > :06:19.Europe Europe Europe. We have other things to talk about but we will
:06:20. > :06:22.start with Europe. David Cameron is going to face a challenge, no matter
:06:23. > :06:27.which way the vote goes, on the front of the paper. We have months
:06:28. > :06:31.to go on this. Blue on blue attacks are going to start coming up and up.
:06:32. > :06:36.You are not necessarily going to see them on TV debate each other because
:06:37. > :06:40.they are desperately trying to avoid that. But we have a man who won the
:06:41. > :06:45.election in many respects, the Conservatives. He gave advice, he
:06:46. > :06:48.said don't go about it this way, delay it, trying to rubbish the
:06:49. > :06:56.deal. Quite a theatrical walk-out. When they returned to it -- then a
:06:57. > :06:59.return to it. You will have some people who have been burned badly
:07:00. > :07:02.and they will be looking for somebody to take it out on. How
:07:03. > :07:08.seriously the retake the argument that Cameron will face a challenge?
:07:09. > :07:14.He sat in that seat and said I'm not going anywhere, whether win or lose.
:07:15. > :07:20.You only need 50 MPs to make a challenge. A fuel are disappointed.
:07:21. > :07:25.I think there is a good chance he will get a chance. -- a few. There
:07:26. > :07:29.have been some people who are hanging around on the backbenches,
:07:30. > :07:34.perhaps in Cabinet before, you want him gone. Liam Fox, perhaps.
:07:35. > :07:39.Paterson. Two people already refused to pledge their support if he loses
:07:40. > :07:44.publicly. But it is the way he appears to be going about it.
:07:45. > :07:48.Substance as well as style. Cameron has been telling everyone, no blue
:07:49. > :07:54.on blue, let's be civilised, then he goes straight back out and bashes
:07:55. > :07:58.Boris Johnson. I discovered from David Owen, this is not what Harold
:07:59. > :08:02.Wilson did. He remained above the fray. He was the objective
:08:03. > :08:07.character. Whichever way Britain goes, I will go with him, and
:08:08. > :08:10.allowed his junior ministers to do the fight for him. But there is this
:08:11. > :08:15.sense everybody is rattled already and we have a long way to go. This
:08:16. > :08:22.is the interesting piece on The Mail on Sunday. Philip Hammond, who has
:08:23. > :08:28.come out, and in a state of absolute theory has made a foul-mouthed
:08:29. > :08:33.attack on Bill Cash. It is interesting, this blue on blue
:08:34. > :08:38.attack. And we are all hyping it up a bit. Of course. Onlookers were
:08:39. > :08:47.absolutely shocked, according to this. Which makes you think they
:08:48. > :08:53.should get out more often. But it is this idea of fuelling tension.
:08:54. > :08:58.George Osborne is absolutely fuming that Boris Johnson is putting
:08:59. > :09:02.forward as a James Bond character. Turning to that, an insight into the
:09:03. > :09:08.domestic life of the Johnson family. A rain drenched farmhouse last
:09:09. > :09:11.weekend. A wonderful read by Boris Johnson's sister. Never one to miss
:09:12. > :09:18.an opportunity to write a lot and get a substantial fee. All of the
:09:19. > :09:23.Sunday papers are sprinkled with Boris Johnson camp versions of
:09:24. > :09:28.events. They go along the lines of, this wasn't about a leadership
:09:29. > :09:32.decision, it wasn't cynical... Boris Johnson was filled with a rush of
:09:33. > :09:37.patriotic blood to the head when he heard Emma Thompson, the actress,
:09:38. > :09:42.talking about salt in Britain. CHUCKLES
:09:43. > :09:50.It is more surreal by the second. -- sodden Britain. It is fascinating.
:09:51. > :09:54.She drove down to his house last Saturday when the Cabinet was
:09:55. > :09:59.famously meeting after the Prime Minister came out with a deal. And
:10:00. > :10:03.apparently his mind was flashing like a traffic light. They went and
:10:04. > :10:07.played tennis in the rain to try and calm him down. Then he burned the
:10:08. > :10:15.sausages inside. It goes on. It is lovely. Forget the dilemma on
:10:16. > :10:26.Brexit, there is also the Johnson family, the family is split on it.
:10:27. > :10:30.Boris Johnson's mother is a recruit for Brexit, apparently. Like the
:10:31. > :10:38.nation, his family is splitting. There is an interesting line when
:10:39. > :10:45.she put to him his career. That is about one paragraph in a 2000 word
:10:46. > :10:55.piece. And something else, which isn't a newspaper it is BuzzFeed. My
:10:56. > :11:00.children get their news from BuzzFeed, is it safe? Yes. We have
:11:01. > :11:06.fun stuff. But we have stories. Like the tennis match fixing scandal
:11:07. > :11:10.which we broke last week. It is a good mix of light and shade like any
:11:11. > :11:14.other paper. You are the political correspondent. You work in the lobby
:11:15. > :11:19.alongside your colleagues. It has been a fight to get the authorities
:11:20. > :11:27.in but we are in and established. We sent Emily Ashton to North Wales. A
:11:28. > :11:34.glamorous assignment. It was to the Ukip conference. She found Suzanne
:11:35. > :11:38.Adams telling Ukip activists not to talk about Ukip when trying to get
:11:39. > :11:44.people to vote to leave the U. She said mentioning Nigel Farage is
:11:45. > :11:53.going to stop people wanting to leave. -- to leave the EU. Suzanne
:11:54. > :12:01.is a good egg by Lion Art -- Suzanne is a good egg, but she is known to
:12:02. > :12:05.not really like Nigel Farage. We have four months to go, but the
:12:06. > :12:11.Leave campaign cannot even agree what their message is, and neither
:12:12. > :12:19.can Ukip, it seems. We have buzz cut,, the future of digital
:12:20. > :12:23.journalism. -- we have buzz cut, BuzzFeed, the future of digital
:12:24. > :12:27.journalism. Would it be mad to launch another newspaper? It would,
:12:28. > :12:35.but we are trying to do something different. Tell us about it. We are
:12:36. > :12:39.having balanced opinion. Very much like this show. We won't tell people
:12:40. > :12:44.what to think. We believe those days have gone. We believe people would
:12:45. > :12:47.like to have their own opinions. We thought the same on the independent
:12:48. > :12:55.but it hasn't entirely gone to plan. I don't think the balanced opinion
:12:56. > :13:03.was the problem. And look at the success of the i. Again, we found
:13:04. > :13:12.that one of the things causing people to lapse out of readership
:13:13. > :13:16.was relentless... Sort of... Negativity. And the way, it is quite
:13:17. > :13:19.interesting the way Europe has been done in the newspapers, these
:13:20. > :13:23.personalities. People are interested in the issues, what is the right
:13:24. > :13:36.thing to do? And the name of the newspaper is? New Day, free tomorrow
:13:37. > :13:41.for the first edition. So you are not going to go either side on the
:13:42. > :13:49.referendum. Exactly. But we will give a lot of informed statement so
:13:50. > :13:55.people can make up their own opinions. Let's talk about the other
:13:56. > :14:03.big political story of the week. We have been watching the march of
:14:04. > :14:08.Donald Trump. All the way through people thinking nobody will vote for
:14:09. > :14:12.him over here. But people are. He is now coming up against Marco Rubio in
:14:13. > :14:18.a sensational and very foul-mouthed debate in America. I would just like
:14:19. > :14:23.everybody to see Marco Rubio having a go at Donald Trump after that
:14:24. > :14:34.debate. He inherited $200 million. If he had not he would be selling
:14:35. > :14:37.watches it Times Square -- at. View all her friends thinking about
:14:38. > :14:43.voting for Donald Trump. Friends do not let friends vote for con
:14:44. > :14:46.artists. Quite clear what he thinks. But the march of Donald Trump has
:14:47. > :14:53.taken everybody by surprise, is that fair enough? Absolutely. Remember
:14:54. > :14:58.three weeks ago, Donald Trump was a joke. He would never have come into
:14:59. > :15:02.the top three or four Republican nomination. There is now serious
:15:03. > :15:11.thought he will win the entire thing. Hillary Clinton's acceptance
:15:12. > :15:16.speech last night in South Carolina was America isn't broken. But it
:15:17. > :15:20.doesn't come close. A very good spread in the Sunday Times. All of
:15:21. > :15:24.the facts you need. And Donald Trump with his wife. One of the things
:15:25. > :15:28.that has offended people most is what he said about women. He seems
:15:29. > :15:33.to have a very old-fashioned view of these things.
:15:34. > :15:38.Buzz feed on earth the recordings were he claimed he could have slept
:15:39. > :15:43.with Princess Diana if he had wanted. This is the extent of the
:15:44. > :15:49.guy. Having been to a trump rally, it is like nothing else. In many
:15:50. > :15:53.respects, it is awful, in many respects it is astonishing. There is
:15:54. > :16:00.a show, there is music, there is a guy on stage sending out jokes and
:16:01. > :16:02.the crowd absolutely love it. And is this thing were someone who is
:16:03. > :16:06.regarded as a joke all of a sudden gathers momentum and it is not at
:16:07. > :16:10.all any more. The other huge American story that we cannot ignore
:16:11. > :16:14.is the Oscars because we have a lot of British talent in there. But the
:16:15. > :16:18.big story seems to be the lack of black faces. The macro it has been a
:16:19. > :16:22.huge issue since the nominations came out, the lack of diversity. But
:16:23. > :16:26.there is an interesting piece in the Sunday Times today, an interview
:16:27. > :16:31.with the boss of Sony who had to resign after the leaked e-mails
:16:32. > :16:34.which showed how women actresses like Jennifer Lawrence were getting
:16:35. > :16:38.paid significantly less than men. She has come out and said it is a
:16:39. > :16:43.travesty. There is an amazing statistic, only 3% of directors of
:16:44. > :16:48.movies are women. So there is a huge issue with women as well as with
:16:49. > :16:57.black faces. And talking about the glitz and glamour of the film world,
:16:58. > :17:02.Borat, Borat and Grimsby, a film that is seeking to trash the
:17:03. > :17:06.reputation of one of our finest urban centres. And they are not very
:17:07. > :17:15.happy with either. Sasha Baron Cohen, the star of Borat, of course,
:17:16. > :17:20.and that Mancunian, he apparently was told by Tony Blair that the
:17:21. > :17:26.Prime Minister of Kazakhstan had run Tony Blair personally, saying that
:17:27. > :17:28.it was going to kill their international repetition. Tony Blair
:17:29. > :17:34.turned that down and good on him for doing so. I want to turn full circle
:17:35. > :17:39.back to the EU and the important subject of kettles. A very important
:17:40. > :17:45.subject. There is a preposterous story that went around last week
:17:46. > :17:50.that was sourced to a Ukip MEP who said that the EU was trying to stop
:17:51. > :17:54.us having our toast by removing the power to our appliances. We thought
:17:55. > :17:58.it was' but the Telegraph claims that was truth in it. The EU has
:17:59. > :18:03.shelved regulations to avoid the stories that the British neighbours
:18:04. > :18:08.like to pick up on. What were they trying to achieve, under powering
:18:09. > :18:12.our kettles? They are attacking the key values of our society,
:18:13. > :18:15.breakfast, vacuum cleaners. I sometimes think that Nigel Farage
:18:16. > :18:21.must have sleepers inside the commission. In fairness to the EU,
:18:22. > :18:24.it was an energy-saving idea. It was a green thing, but it comes to a
:18:25. > :18:30.bigger truth across government, which is that almost nothing is
:18:31. > :18:35.happening now. Every major decision on Trident, the obesity strategy,
:18:36. > :18:39.has been suspended, above the one that absolutely has to be done. And
:18:40. > :18:42.this is interesting because it will be rushed through, and by the end of
:18:43. > :18:46.April it could already be done, regardless of the fact that there
:18:47. > :18:50.was a committee saying in April that there were so many concerns. We like
:18:51. > :18:51.to finish these newspaper reviews with a big truth. And to the
:18:52. > :18:53.weather. A bright clear sky yesterday -
:18:54. > :18:58.I went off to do my errands Are we going to shiver
:18:59. > :19:10.and jitter our way into March? We are certainly not springing into
:19:11. > :19:14.March. It is going to be a cold start to the last day of February.
:19:15. > :19:18.Tomorrow morning, and extensive frost. And then we will get it wet
:19:19. > :19:21.and windy spell for Tuesday before things turn colder through the rest
:19:22. > :19:27.of this week. Sunday, for most of us a fine day. It got down to -10 last
:19:28. > :19:32.night across the Glens of Scotland. Temperatures now bouncing up. Not
:19:33. > :19:37.sunny everywhere. It is going to be cloudy at times and there is rather
:19:38. > :19:41.chilly wind coming in across East Anglia and southern England. A few
:19:42. > :19:51.light showers, and maybe the odd shower in Shetland and Orkney.
:19:52. > :19:54.Temperatures getting up to average, 6-9. The breeze will die down
:19:55. > :19:59.overnight and the balloon will take hold of the map once more. Even call
:20:00. > :20:03.it a night across England and Wales, but not quite so cold across
:20:04. > :20:09.Scotland and Northern Ireland. Across the UK, there will be a
:20:10. > :20:18.frost, with -6 possible in rural areas. Take note on of that for
:20:19. > :20:24.Monday morning. Extreme wets to start, across Scotland and Northern
:20:25. > :20:29.Ireland, between five and 8 degrees. Caught on, everybody!
:20:30. > :20:34.I always have a problem with my next guest.
:20:35. > :20:39.Powerful women in trouser suits with whom David Cameron has well,
:20:40. > :20:43.These days, of course, he needs both Angular
:20:44. > :20:45.and Angela Eagle, Labour's most senior, outspoken pro-European
:20:46. > :20:51.There is a certain sense that the Labour Party has not quite got its
:20:52. > :20:54.heart and soul into this campaign and that might be something to do
:20:55. > :20:58.with the fact that the leader is a Eurosceptic. Actually, we're not
:20:59. > :21:01.split down the middle like the Conservative Party on this. I think
:21:02. > :21:06.there are only five members of Parliament who are going to campaign
:21:07. > :21:12.for Out. We are determined and united in our determination to make
:21:13. > :21:17.certain that we get this right and we stay with in the European Union.
:21:18. > :21:21.By the time the 24th of June comes along, we will have made the right
:21:22. > :21:25.decision in the best interests of the country. It is more about
:21:26. > :21:29.passion I am talking about. Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell have voted
:21:30. > :21:33.against virtually every EU related big issue, all the way through back
:21:34. > :21:38.to the 1970s. There is a sense that although they want the party to not
:21:39. > :21:43.split, and people like you have warned them to do the right thing on
:21:44. > :21:46.Europe, as you see it, they do not really care about it. It is not in
:21:47. > :21:54.their blood and they do not feel passionate about it. Jeremy Corbyn
:21:55. > :21:58.is campaigning about Trident, not the EU vote. Actually, he did launch
:21:59. > :22:01.our campaign at the Yorkshire conference yesterday, and I think he
:22:02. > :22:05.recognises, as well as the rest of the party, that it is Labour votes
:22:06. > :22:10.that will keep us in Europe and it is really important for our future
:22:11. > :22:15.as a country that we do not turn our back on the largest single market in
:22:16. > :22:22.the world, where half of our experts go, that we actually understand that
:22:23. > :22:27.workers rights are on the referendum. A lot of workers rights
:22:28. > :22:31.are underpinned by EU regulations. Equal pay, paid holidays, writes for
:22:32. > :22:39.part-time workers, all things that Tory Eurosceptics want to be free
:22:40. > :22:43.of. Continuing with the subject of workers' writes, a lot of your
:22:44. > :22:46.traditional Labour voters are horrified by the levels of
:22:47. > :22:50.immigration that we have seen in this country. Particularly under new
:22:51. > :22:54.Labour. Peter Mandelson saying we virtually went out there and invited
:22:55. > :22:57.people to comment. There was a huge increase in EU workers coming into
:22:58. > :23:01.this country and that has depressed the wages of a lot of people who
:23:02. > :23:06.would normally vote Labour and they are very angry about it. They listen
:23:07. > :23:10.to Nigel Farage more than the Labour Party. I think it is important that
:23:11. > :23:16.we put the Labour case of staying in, and underpinning rights at work,
:23:17. > :23:24.having a more productive economy and greater skills in our economy so
:23:25. > :23:30.people can earn higher wages. A more productive economy is an important
:23:31. > :23:34.part of staying in Europe. Not much good if you have been undercut by a
:23:35. > :23:37.group of migrants in Eastern Europe and you do not have a job in the
:23:38. > :23:45.first place where you are forced to take a job at a lower wage. Of
:23:46. > :23:49.course, but this is about globalisation and the way to resolve
:23:50. > :23:54.that is to make sure we have a higher valued jobs. Part of that is
:23:55. > :23:59.about our integration with the European economy in one of the
:24:00. > :24:02.largest markets in the world. If you look at places like Norway and
:24:03. > :24:07.Switzerland, who are outside the European Union and have greater
:24:08. > :24:13.levels of EU immigration as a percentage of population, it is
:24:14. > :24:17.clear that the EU is not the problem for immigration. We have to make our
:24:18. > :24:22.way in a more interconnected world. And we can only do that by racing to
:24:23. > :24:24.the top rather than racing to the bottom, and I fear that our
:24:25. > :24:30.Conservative government the first that. So what about the number of
:24:31. > :24:35.people coming into this country? Did the Labour Party get on the wrong
:24:36. > :24:39.side of the immigration argument? I remember Barbara Roach saying that
:24:40. > :24:44.it was wrong to send back asylum seekers who had failed because it
:24:45. > :24:48.was too emotional. I think she was trying to make a positive case for
:24:49. > :24:51.the benefits of immigration and we have to remember that people who
:24:52. > :24:56.come into this country to work make our economy bigger and make us more
:24:57. > :25:03.productive. We have to make certain that our own people are skilled to
:25:04. > :25:06.take jobs and opportunities when they are available. And we have to
:25:07. > :25:11.work to have a higher more productive economy. So wages can be
:25:12. > :25:14.high. That is not the record of this government. Productivity has not
:25:15. > :25:18.recovered from the great recession. We have had a sudden dip because of
:25:19. > :25:22.the uncertainty caused by this internal meltdown that we are seeing
:25:23. > :25:26.in the Conservative Party at the moment. Labour people watching this
:25:27. > :25:29.issue will have heard nothing from you at all if they are worried about
:25:30. > :25:36.the level of immigration to this country. We have to have a
:25:37. > :25:40.controlled immigration policy as best we can in a globalised world.
:25:41. > :25:42.We have to make sure that our policies are fair but I would say
:25:43. > :25:47.that the European Union does not have the key to that echoes other
:25:48. > :25:53.countries outside the European Union have similar issues with people on
:25:54. > :25:57.the move. And we have got the problems of asylum seekers, where
:25:58. > :26:00.that is a very different issue, with the collapse of various regimes in
:26:01. > :26:07.the Middle East, causing biblical scenes on our borders. What do you
:26:08. > :26:10.think about the deal that David Cameron has negotiated on benefits?
:26:11. > :26:13.Is it right that people coming to this country should have to work for
:26:14. > :26:18.a certain number of years before they get access to benefits? I think
:26:19. > :26:22.the general view in this country is one I agree with, that people should
:26:23. > :26:25.put into a system before they take out of a system. That has always
:26:26. > :26:33.been the way that our social security system works and it seems
:26:34. > :26:38.there in office. So by and large, you back him? -- and that seems to
:26:39. > :26:42.work. I don't think that the EU deal was anything other than a sideshow,
:26:43. > :26:46.so he could manoeuvre his own party into the place he always wanted it
:26:47. > :26:51.to be. And I think the backlash from Eurosceptics, which has shredded the
:26:52. > :26:56.party down the middle, is the result of that cynical manipulation. But
:26:57. > :27:03.actually the argument for staying in the European Union is still very,
:27:04. > :27:07.very strong, as Alan Johnson has said, regardless of what the Prime
:27:08. > :27:12.Minister has been negotiating. It is the largest single market in the
:27:13. > :27:17.world, we do have our trade with it. And also, this debate, it is a proxy
:27:18. > :27:21.debate about our position in the world. I believe we should be
:27:22. > :27:26.confident about our values and we know that we can project our values
:27:27. > :27:31.in the world if we work through international organisations. And the
:27:32. > :27:36.EU is one such organisation. If we vote for Brexit and then the Scots
:27:37. > :27:42.decide to leave the UK, what kind of country do we have left? That is one
:27:43. > :27:47.of the issues we have the way. There are dangers were coming out, not
:27:48. > :27:52.least the economic shot and the status that you get wild you
:27:53. > :27:56.negotiate your way out of 43 years of economic integration. -- of the
:27:57. > :28:00.economic shock. Surely the Eurosceptics do not believe that
:28:01. > :28:05.they could suddenly turn the clock back to the 1970s and do all the
:28:06. > :28:08.trade deals that they did with the Commonwealth? Their attention as
:28:09. > :28:12.elsewhere now. We have to really make the best of where we are now
:28:13. > :28:20.and be confident that we can get the best out of it. Talking of turning
:28:21. > :28:22.the clock back, there was a huge CND demonstration in London yesterday,
:28:23. > :28:26.addressed by Jeremy Corbyn. If this issue comes up in the House of
:28:27. > :28:30.Commons before the Labour Party changes its view, would you vote
:28:31. > :28:37.with the government on Trident? We are in the middle of a review but my
:28:38. > :28:40.position on this is always clear. If you think about it, we all agree on
:28:41. > :28:45.the Labour Party that we would like to live in a world without nuclear
:28:46. > :28:49.weapons. We want to live in a nuclear free world. We have a
:28:50. > :28:53.disagreement about how best to get there and personally I have always
:28:54. > :28:57.been a multilateralist. I believe that you negotiate these weapons
:28:58. > :29:03.away. I do not think this government has done nearly enough to get
:29:04. > :29:07.multinational -- multilateral talks going and I think they should do
:29:08. > :29:09.more. But we will wait and see what the party discussion on the debate
:29:10. > :29:14.that we have says about that. Last time we were talking about this on
:29:15. > :29:17.the show, I invited you to be warm and generous about Jeremy Corbyn and
:29:18. > :29:23.I think you said words to the effect of, well, we have a leader -- he is
:29:24. > :29:27.the leader we have got. So I will give you another chance. You are so
:29:28. > :29:29.predictable. All I can say is that I think the leadership campaign going
:29:30. > :29:33.on in British politics at the moment is going on in the Conservative
:29:34. > :29:39.Party. It certainly is not going on in the Labour Party. We are getting
:29:40. > :29:42.on with trying to do the work that will create new policies so that we
:29:43. > :29:46.can appeal to the British people. The leadership is not an issue.
:29:47. > :29:52.Carry on being predictable one last time. A lot of people inside the
:29:53. > :29:55.Labour Party say, that Angela Eagle, she is the future. Well, that is
:29:56. > :30:00.very interesting but I am concentrating on my current job. But
:30:01. > :30:04.you would not be horrified? If I get another go at George Osborne at
:30:05. > :30:07.Prime Minister's Questions, I would not mind. You will be joining us
:30:08. > :30:09.again later on, but thank you very much indeed.
:30:10. > :30:13.Of all the big American TV shows that dominate our screens,
:30:14. > :30:16.Orange Is The New Black has marked itself out as very different.
:30:17. > :30:19.An often shocking, often very funny prison drama with a sensational
:30:20. > :30:21.female cast, it has been laden with awards.
:30:22. > :30:24.The show's most striking character, the inmate Suzanne, known
:30:25. > :30:26.as Crazy Eyes, is played by Uzo Aduba.
:30:27. > :30:29.When we met, she told me about what makes the show unique.
:30:30. > :30:32.And we also talked about her London stage debut -
:30:33. > :30:39.in one of the Twentieth Century's most subversive plays.
:30:40. > :30:49.She is bothering me. And you need to be on your way, because she don't
:30:50. > :30:56.like talking to you, not one bit. Are you kidding me? This is my wife
:30:57. > :31:04.here, so you need to step... I will cut you, I will cut you, don't make
:31:05. > :31:07.me cut you. You don't know me. Orange Is The New Black is unlike
:31:08. > :31:17.anything else on TV, in America and the UK. A virtually entirely female
:31:18. > :31:21.cast, a human in it, it is about homosexuality, race, bringing issues
:31:22. > :31:25.to the mainstream which rarely seen. What we see in Orange Is The New
:31:26. > :31:29.Black is so many different make-ups of people in this world rubbing up
:31:30. > :31:35.against one another. We are telling stories about race, about women,
:31:36. > :31:38.about sexual orientation, we are telling stories about what is
:31:39. > :31:44.gender. We have different ages, different sizes, reflected on our
:31:45. > :31:48.show. And all of those things can coexist. It looks like nothing else
:31:49. > :31:56.we have seen before on TV. Tell us about the play you are in. It is The
:31:57. > :32:03.Maids, directed by Jamie Lloyd, the story about two sisters who are in
:32:04. > :32:07.servitude. And based on their feeling of being oppressed they have
:32:08. > :32:12.decided to plot to kill their mistress so they can be free and
:32:13. > :32:19.live their life to their fullest. It is a psychological thriller. It is
:32:20. > :32:22.very exciting to play. It is about class, passion, murder, is it also
:32:23. > :32:27.about race, the way you are doing it? It is in the sense that it is
:32:28. > :32:34.impossible to ignore the very fact that the two women are black. I
:32:35. > :32:43.think it is impossible to ignore some of the words that are said to
:32:44. > :32:51.them. When you hear the word slays -- slave under the context of myself
:32:52. > :33:00.and my sister. And the fact that it is based in modern America. Those
:33:01. > :33:05.things do not resonate for other actors playing those roles. 1930s,
:33:06. > :33:10.real thing, but it has been reimagined. In a sense you are in a
:33:11. > :33:18.prison. That is right and the prison expands beyond the house in which we
:33:19. > :33:23.are serving. It is the social prison, the status, it is not having
:33:24. > :33:26.the freedom. That is what drives these women to the point of wanting
:33:27. > :33:33.to escape and the only escape they can think of is the murder of their
:33:34. > :33:38.mistress. You are an American, you must be pleased to be over here in
:33:39. > :33:42.the UK, but when you go back to the USA will you be pleased to have
:33:43. > :33:47.Donald Trump as your president? LAUGHTER
:33:48. > :33:52.Is there an answer to that? I think your laughter is the answer.
:33:53. > :33:59.LAUGHTER I have loudly and quite openly
:34:00. > :34:05.expressed my... Candidate I am supporting. Hillary Clinton. I am
:34:06. > :34:10.indeed support of her. Her long-standing history and activism.
:34:11. > :34:16.Quite honestly, her front seat position to the White House. But
:34:17. > :34:29.makes her somebody more than qualified to hold that title. --
:34:30. > :34:33.that makes her. There are many people who feel they not enough
:34:34. > :34:38.black faces at the Oscars this year, how do you feel about it? The
:34:39. > :34:42.discussion we should have is about the production of work which is
:34:43. > :34:47.all-inclusive. The level of work being produced. That includes people
:34:48. > :34:50.of all walks. I'm interested in having that conversation or question
:34:51. > :34:57.placed back into the hands of those who have the charge to change
:34:58. > :35:05.things. Directors and big producers? Correct. Are you against the idea of
:35:06. > :35:10.protesting? I live in the United States. This is a country which was
:35:11. > :35:14.borne out of rebellion and revolt. CHUCKLES
:35:15. > :35:19.But that is the great freedom we have in the US. I'm not against
:35:20. > :35:24.anybody exploring or exercising that right, because it is that, it is a
:35:25. > :35:31.right. Every person of this world wants to feel like they matter just
:35:32. > :35:34.as much as the next person. I don't think there is anything wrong in
:35:35. > :35:39.standing up and saying so. That new version of The Maids is at the
:35:40. > :35:40.Trafalgar Studios in London's West End until the 21st of May, well
:35:41. > :35:43.worth it. Iain Duncan Smith,
:35:44. > :35:45.when he was Tory leader, told us that the Conservatives
:35:46. > :35:47.did not want to leave A long time ago, of course,
:35:48. > :35:51.and his own hostility to Brussels has become ever more
:35:52. > :35:53.obvious since then. Unlike Michael Gove
:35:54. > :35:55.or Boris Johnson, David Cameron was never in much doubt that IDS
:35:56. > :36:05.would come out for Brexit. I picked up my paper today and I
:36:06. > :36:10.read you saying, they can sack me, is it going to come to that? Like
:36:11. > :36:15.anything else, I was responding to a question and the answer is my
:36:16. > :36:19.country comes first, always before jobs, careers, anything else, I
:36:20. > :36:25.always said I am here, it is a vocation, not a career. It wasn't an
:36:26. > :36:29.invitation? It is not for me to invite anybody to sack me or not.
:36:30. > :36:34.This is a huge issue. The Prime Minister, to be fair, deserves
:36:35. > :36:37.credit for allowing the Cabinet to disagree and campaign. That is a
:36:38. > :36:41.sense of strength rather than weakness, I think. Let's turn to the
:36:42. > :36:46.issue. The biggest thing people want to know about all of this is our
:36:47. > :36:51.terms of trade if we leave the EU. Are you in favour of us staying
:36:52. > :36:55.inside a single European market? I am in favour of us having a proper
:36:56. > :37:00.arrangement which allows us to access the marketplace as they exist
:37:01. > :37:05.at the moment. That isn't an answer. It is worth remembering that nowhere
:37:06. > :37:09.in the treaties is the single European market in anyway to find.
:37:10. > :37:13.Those who talk about an entity are wrong. There is no entity called the
:37:14. > :37:20.single European market, there is just a series of issues in Europe
:37:21. > :37:24.about trade and relationships. I believe we should be able to arrange
:37:25. > :37:28.our affairs with the EU as the fifth largest economy, such as we would
:37:29. > :37:32.get access to the matters we will refer to as the single European
:37:33. > :37:36.market, and trade and cooperate with them in a reasonable way. But not be
:37:37. > :37:41.bound by a whole series of internal regulations. Because 95% of all
:37:42. > :37:45.business in Britain doesn't trade with the European Union. It has to
:37:46. > :37:49.imbibe all of the regulations which come from the EU, costing them extra
:37:50. > :37:55.money, and real problems about time and concerns about their ability to
:37:56. > :37:58.do revenue because of that. According to the figures, 50% of our
:37:59. > :38:03.trade is with the EU comedy you accept that as a figure? The
:38:04. > :38:10.careful. What we have seen with that percentage is that there is a bunch
:38:11. > :38:14.of trading with that. Example, a company that makes wings for an
:38:15. > :38:16.aircraft that is being exported to Kuwait, that isn't European trade,
:38:17. > :38:25.it is going through the EU and out of it. Nearly 41% of it goes to the
:38:26. > :38:28.European Union. Pretty big. And the amount of trade coming back,
:38:29. > :38:37.according to the ONS figures, from then to us is about 13%. There are
:38:38. > :38:43.debates about that, 13, 16... What about that gap? I don't think it is
:38:44. > :38:47.a gap at all. You have to look at who is trading and why. That
:38:48. > :38:51.percentage coming from the UK is vitally important to the EU because
:38:52. > :38:56.it is a huge element of their trade on manufacturers. Look at Germany,
:38:57. > :39:00.we are Germany's third largest trading partner. We are 1% behind
:39:01. > :39:05.their greatest which is France. France, America, America is their
:39:06. > :39:11.second, and they are not in the single market, not in the EU. We are
:39:12. > :39:15.the third. My point is Germany, selling cars, machine tools,
:39:16. > :39:19.Scandinavia, I was in hospital the other day, I was in an operating
:39:20. > :39:23.theatre there were products in there which were not made in Britain but
:39:24. > :39:27.made in Sweden. They have a requirement to trade with us, a
:39:28. > :39:32.desperate one, and we will do it with them. My original question, the
:39:33. > :39:42.single European market, it may not be an entity. Margaret Thatcher was
:39:43. > :39:46.always in favour of the EU all the way through as Prime Minister and
:39:47. > :39:52.she was very specific about the single European act, and the single
:39:53. > :39:57.European market. She liked the idea. She said, what a prospect that is, a
:39:58. > :40:01.single market without barriers, visible or invisible, giving you
:40:02. > :40:06.direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million
:40:07. > :40:09.of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people. The number has
:40:10. > :40:16.gone up, of course, but isn't that a fair point? Yes, and I talked to her
:40:17. > :40:20.when I got elected. She also told me that she had been utterly misled
:40:21. > :40:24.about the single European act. She was told it was about the
:40:25. > :40:29.marketplace. But later she realised it was actually about a political
:40:30. > :40:33.union. It is worth knowing something here, I think we always debate the
:40:34. > :40:38.single market, Europe has a distinct desire to have asked trade with them
:40:39. > :40:44.and vice versa. Fact of life. In or out. We will trade with the European
:40:45. > :40:47.Union. But the European Union is not about the trade issue. The European
:40:48. > :40:54.Union was set up by the founding fathers, and important Italian man,
:40:55. > :40:58.an ex-communist, he designed it because he said this is a political
:40:59. > :41:01.project. It is about bringing the nations of Europe closer and closer
:41:02. > :41:09.together to create a place called Europe and the design of it was that
:41:10. > :41:12.politicians who come and go cannot override the decisions of the
:41:13. > :41:20.bureaucracy because otherwise we would never get there. We are out of
:41:21. > :41:26.the close a bit, of course. That is debatable. What is the deal that you
:41:27. > :41:30.think we could realistically negotiate with the rest of the EU
:41:31. > :41:35.once we have left? What is the nature of the deal? We would want
:41:36. > :41:41.them to be able to access our market freely without any special and extra
:41:42. > :41:44.tariffs. We would want access their marketplace. We would also want
:41:45. > :41:49.something else which I think we have never -- that they have never
:41:50. > :41:53.delivered. The market in financial trade is not complete by a long way,
:41:54. > :41:57.it is still highly difficult for British companies come in the
:41:58. > :42:02.financial sector, the trade directly in Germany. All sorts of barriers
:42:03. > :42:07.are put up. Same goes for France. Outside we cannot affect that. Even
:42:08. > :42:11.inside, how many years have we had since the single European act, 30?
:42:12. > :42:17.And we haven't affected that, either. In fact, quite the opposite.
:42:18. > :42:20.New regulations piling in on the city made it more difficult for them
:42:21. > :42:27.to trade with the rest of the world. To be clear, we would get a two-way
:42:28. > :42:31.free-trade deal, it would get us into the single European act, but
:42:32. > :42:35.without free movement of people, and without financial entrance fees. A
:42:36. > :42:39.better deal than any EU country has got, we would get after leaving, why
:42:40. > :42:44.would they give us that? Because the rest of the EU signed up to the
:42:45. > :42:48.political project. For most of the countries of the EU they believe in
:42:49. > :42:52.this political project. We don't. If you go to Europe, and much of my
:42:53. > :42:55.family have been living in Italy, I studied out there, they don't talk
:42:56. > :43:01.about the marketplace. There has never been a debate in those
:43:02. > :43:07.countries about it. They talk about the political project. They talk
:43:08. > :43:12.about Europe and the European Union as being an entity. That being the
:43:13. > :43:17.case, we leave, we slammed the door and their faces, and we say, we want
:43:18. > :43:24.a better deal for us than you have for anybody else. Why would they do
:43:25. > :43:29.that? -- slam. My answer is simple. The PM says there is a challenge to
:43:30. > :43:34.find out what life outside of it would look like, well, we do a deal
:43:35. > :43:42.with the European Union, that is a trade deal, it is about access to
:43:43. > :43:46.our market, access to their markets. We want migration but we wanted as
:43:47. > :43:53.controlled migration so we can cope with it. An optimistic view of what
:43:54. > :43:58.would happen outside the EU. I am an optimist. The UK has faced bigger
:43:59. > :44:03.trials before. It stood alone in war. It rediscovered and defined
:44:04. > :44:09.trade throughout the world. These were British inventions. I say this
:44:10. > :44:14.to those who say they want to remain in, I have never heard such a lot of
:44:15. > :44:18.pessimistic, downsizing of Britain's aspect. Britain is a phenomenal
:44:19. > :44:23.country. The fifth largest in the world. It has stood alone and fought
:44:24. > :44:28.for freedom. It has traded globally. It can yet again be a global trade.
:44:29. > :44:32.Why would we have such a low opinion of the British people that we talk
:44:33. > :44:37.about leaping into the dark, profound shocks, we talk about them
:44:38. > :44:41.not being capable, too small... I have a different view, I believe
:44:42. > :44:44.Britain is a great country. The people are inventive, innovative,
:44:45. > :44:49.and they will find a way to actually have a real deal that gives Britain
:44:50. > :44:56.access to the world and access to the EU. You don't see Cameron as
:44:57. > :45:03.being a patriot. The In campaign's strategy seems to be about it is
:45:04. > :45:07.terrible, hang on... Talking down Britain. Basically saying we are too
:45:08. > :45:11.little and too inconsequential, we cannot do what we want. Why would
:45:12. > :45:15.anybody want to run a country like that? This country is the greatest.
:45:16. > :45:24.Not because it is the biggest and strongest, but because it has the
:45:25. > :45:27.best people. A free-market designed by a Scotsman. Everything was
:45:28. > :45:34.designed by a Scotsman. And I'm proud of that. Out there in the
:45:35. > :45:38.modern world as we live it now, millions, billions of people around
:45:39. > :45:42.the world have mobile phones, good access to technology, they know what
:45:43. > :45:46.life is like in the West, it is much easier than it ever was to travel
:45:47. > :45:49.around the world. Those two things put together mean people in
:45:50. > :45:54.impoverished or dangerous circumstances are not going to move,
:45:55. > :45:58.whether the EU is there or not, there is global migration, in or out
:45:59. > :46:01.of PE you, we will face the same issues, isn't that true? -- of the
:46:02. > :46:10.EU. Of course, but right now we have
:46:11. > :46:13.control over when somebody arrives in the European Union. We also have
:46:14. > :46:18.no control over our borders with those members. Is that true? Let me
:46:19. > :46:23.finish this point because it is important. We have chaos and crisis
:46:24. > :46:26.in the European Union over migration. Even the Schengen
:46:27. > :46:30.Agreement is falling apart. Hungary is putting up barbed wire and
:46:31. > :46:38.Macedonia is refusing to accept anybody from Greece. Hardly the
:46:39. > :46:41.fault. It is a global shift. People say we cannot exist without the
:46:42. > :46:47.European Union but I am saying if this is the future with the European
:46:48. > :46:51.Union, we would be better off saying this is how we are going to cope.
:46:52. > :46:54.This country has accepted refugees down the ages and I am proud of
:46:55. > :46:59.that. And the numbers of those coming from outside the EU have
:47:00. > :47:02.rocketed under this government. She has got that right down from where
:47:03. > :47:06.it was before but the reality is that we cannot control migration
:47:07. > :47:10.from the European Union. If you want to know what the future looks like,
:47:11. > :47:15.and this is the challenge for those who want to vote to remain in, what
:47:16. > :47:19.will it look outside? We will control the numbers that come in and
:47:20. > :47:24.for what reason but if you go and stay in, you have chaos and
:47:25. > :47:29.confusion. You do not know that this is not going to collapse. You do not
:47:30. > :47:33.know that the euro, we do not know whether you're always going to be in
:47:34. > :47:40.two years. But we know where the chaos and confusion is, it is in
:47:41. > :47:44.Calais, in the Jungle. Once we leave the EU, what stops the French
:47:45. > :47:48.saying, OK, all you go -- on you go, all those people, there is no reason
:47:49. > :47:51.for the French anybody else to stop you coming here. What do we do then?
:47:52. > :48:00.This is another great scare story put out by the In people. It is not
:48:01. > :48:06.a scare story. The French interior minister has said as much. The
:48:07. > :48:09.reality is that the French would not have done that deal with as if it
:48:10. > :48:15.did not suit them. Of course it suited them. If you remember, before
:48:16. > :48:20.the deal there were greater numbers sitting at Calais and there was no
:48:21. > :48:23.agreement about processing them in France. It suited the French to get
:48:24. > :48:28.the processing them they are and it has actually meant that it has been
:48:29. > :48:35.better organised than it was before. It is a problem now, because the
:48:36. > :48:38.European borders... Local and national politicians in France have
:48:39. > :48:41.said that if we leave they will simply let people go through and
:48:42. > :48:47.coming to the UK in large numbers. And then what do we do? Do we have a
:48:48. > :48:50.Jungle in Kent? We control it as we have to but that is not going to
:48:51. > :48:55.happen because it does not suit the French. The moment they do that,
:48:56. > :48:59.their numbers will trouble, hanging around in France, in Calais. They
:49:00. > :49:02.know that is to be the case which is why they made the original deal,
:49:03. > :49:06.which was done bilaterally. It had nothing to do with the European
:49:07. > :49:09.Union. How does damage the French if people come straight through?
:49:10. > :49:15.Because it invites more people to come through into France. But they
:49:16. > :49:19.are only passing through. And that is the point, and they know very
:49:20. > :49:23.well that while they are in France, they are doing all sorts of things.
:49:24. > :49:26.But under the new deal, they will be in England rather than France. They
:49:27. > :49:30.will still be where they are, because it suits France under the
:49:31. > :49:35.new deal. My point is, figures crossed that French tomorrow... We
:49:36. > :49:41.have so much to talk about. France tomorrow are saying, go right now,
:49:42. > :49:45.but we are not going to do it. You are unionist. What happens if
:49:46. > :49:49.Scotland leads the UK as a result of the Brexit vote? Are you worried
:49:50. > :49:53.about that? I think you vote for what is in front of you and what is
:49:54. > :49:55.in front of us right now is whether we should remain in the European
:49:56. > :50:00.Union. The reality for Scotland is they have had a referendum and I was
:50:01. > :50:05.passionately for the union, and I believe they voted for that. I think
:50:06. > :50:09.those running around saying that somehow if Britain votes to stay in
:50:10. > :50:12.and Scotland decides they want to go, they have another referendum, I
:50:13. > :50:18.think Scotland does not want another referendum because they are settled.
:50:19. > :50:22.Opinion polls in Scotland now are for leaving the UK. Nicola Sturgeon
:50:23. > :50:25.has complete control of the Scottish legal system and she says it will
:50:26. > :50:31.happen if we have a Brexit. She said it on that sofa, digitally, down the
:50:32. > :50:35.line. And I see no reason to think that it will not happen. It is going
:50:36. > :50:39.to be an emotional decision for people, a visceral decision, and
:50:40. > :50:45.they will be standing in the voting book, thinking, leave the EU and
:50:46. > :50:48.have Scotland goal, it is too much. -- in the voting booth. What about
:50:49. > :50:53.the other way round, if England votes to come out and Scotland votes
:50:54. > :50:57.to remain? It is an absurd concept, England would have do have a
:50:58. > :51:02.referendum? You know this as well as I do, these are politicians trying
:51:03. > :51:06.to use this for their own purposes, for their own short-term narratives.
:51:07. > :51:09.And I say, look, that is what the Nationalists want and they will go
:51:10. > :51:15.on and on about a referendum for years because they never accepted
:51:16. > :51:20.what Alex Salmond said was the decision of a generation. Speaking
:51:21. > :51:24.of people going on and on, you face a situation as a Brexit campaigner
:51:25. > :51:27.for you do not have access to the government papers you would normally
:51:28. > :51:33.have, things you would like to see. Do you think you are fighting on a
:51:34. > :51:38.Fairfield? My view is reasonably simple. -- on a fair field. I do not
:51:39. > :51:42.think that this can apply to us because we are responsible for the
:51:43. > :51:52.department. I will have to work on these proposals if we vote to remain
:51:53. > :51:56.in. We will have to deliver that. And can this be delivered? Is
:51:57. > :52:02.conjugated system of benefits? Is that deliverable by your department?
:52:03. > :52:06.If we are asked to deliver it, I know the department has the skill
:52:07. > :52:11.and the capability to find a way. It is not easy, and it is compensated,
:52:12. > :52:16.and it was not our proposal, but they could deliver it. My sense
:52:17. > :52:20.about this, although it is not as same -- the same as limiting overall
:52:21. > :52:23.migration to the UK, because it does not, I want to remain on this one
:52:24. > :52:27.point which is that I simply say that all of the staff, all of the
:52:28. > :52:30.threats, I am positive about leaving the European Union because instead
:52:31. > :52:36.of those who say it is a leap in the dark, I think it is a stride into
:52:37. > :52:42.the light, about hope and not pessimism. We will talk more about
:52:43. > :52:46.the future in a moment but at the -- but now, over to sally for the
:52:47. > :52:50.headlines. The Work and Pensions Secretary has told this programme
:52:51. > :52:55.that the UK would be able to negotiate a free trade deal with the
:52:56. > :52:57.EU if people vote to leave in the June referendum. Iain Duncan Smith
:52:58. > :53:01.said the European Union was primarily a political project and
:53:02. > :53:02.warned it is heading for chaos and collapse because of the migrant
:53:03. > :53:06.crisis. The Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny
:53:07. > :53:08.has admitted that the coalition government has lost
:53:09. > :53:12.the general election. Exit polls
:53:13. > :53:14.indicate that Fine Gael have made heavy losses but will
:53:15. > :53:16.remain the largest party. Sinn Fein and the smaller
:53:17. > :53:18.parties have made gains - and weeks of negotiations are now
:53:19. > :53:21.expected before a new administration The next news on BBC1
:53:22. > :53:26.is at one o'clock. First, a look at what's coming up
:53:27. > :53:36.immediately after this programme. Join us live from Newcastle when we
:53:37. > :53:41.will be asking, does inequality work? And then fair trade, can
:53:42. > :53:45.ethical shopping change the world? And after the Archbishop's call for
:53:46. > :53:52.evangelism, should religions tout for business? See you at ten on BBC
:53:53. > :53:58.One. And as retired and promised, Angela Eagle and Iain Duncan Smith
:53:59. > :54:03.are both here. I did not talk about your future, but you have said that
:54:04. > :54:07.if we stay inside the European Union we are like a ship heading towards
:54:08. > :54:10.the rocks of disaster. How could you possibly clamber aboard that ship
:54:11. > :54:15.and carry on sailing in that direction is the thing goes against
:54:16. > :54:23.you? You cannot really say the David Cameron, I will stay with you after
:54:24. > :54:29.this, can you? That is not up to me. But would you want to? I want to see
:54:30. > :54:35.that Britain does everything they can to avoid it. Do the best with
:54:36. > :54:40.what you have got. I am for Out but if they voted In, we would have
:54:41. > :54:44.responsibility to make further changes. Can I take you up on this
:54:45. > :54:50.idea that those who want to stay in Europe are somehow pessimists? I
:54:51. > :54:53.actually think that this whole issue is a proxy for a debate about our
:54:54. > :55:00.future and we should be confident about our ability to amplify our own
:55:01. > :55:05.influence within the European Union rather than outside of it. I am
:55:06. > :55:10.actually very confident that we have a better presence on the world
:55:11. > :55:16.stage, that we are more prosperous and we have better job prospects and
:55:17. > :55:22.economic prospects, better workers rights, if we stay in the European
:55:23. > :55:26.Union. I am not pessimistic about the future. You are not. And that is
:55:27. > :55:34.more positive than your leader. But I will say nothing more than that. I
:55:35. > :55:40.will simply say... I think my leader is probably far more positive about
:55:41. > :55:45.Europe than you are. And I actually think that he is campaigning to stay
:55:46. > :55:50.in Europe with more positivity than the Prime Minister. I sat with
:55:51. > :55:54.Jeremy Corbyn during the Maastricht debates and I have watched him in
:55:55. > :55:58.debate after debate and I would say that up until the final moment when
:55:59. > :56:02.he sat down with all of you, he was utterly opposed to us staying in and
:56:03. > :56:13.all of a sudden he has changed. That is fine. I will accept the argument.
:56:14. > :56:20.Since we are talking about leaders, there is a lot of bad feeling
:56:21. > :56:23.already reeling around the media. And briefings and so forth. What is
:56:24. > :56:27.your advice to your opponents in this campaign about conducting at
:56:28. > :56:32.the? It is very simple. We agreed at the time. As I said, the Prime
:56:33. > :56:35.Minister deserves some credit because this is a generous offer, to
:56:36. > :56:42.lead cabinet ministers break ranks and debate this big issue. But the
:56:43. > :56:46.general view is, don't play the person, play the ball. And you think
:56:47. > :56:51.the other side have made a few mistakes? I think we should take a
:56:52. > :56:56.deep breath and ask a simple question. It is about Britain, not
:56:57. > :57:02.about us. Does Boris Johnson believe that? What got me excited, during
:57:03. > :57:06.the Olympics I was in the job centre and I would talk to lots of people
:57:07. > :57:10.who have skills, plumbers and electricians. This is about them
:57:11. > :57:14.because they could not get jobs on the Olympic Park because people were
:57:15. > :57:22.coming in from the European Union, setting themselves up and getting
:57:23. > :57:26.jobs. And they undercut those who were British, qualified people. And
:57:27. > :57:31.I am worried for them. It is for them, not for me or the Prime
:57:32. > :57:34.Minister, it is about them. But we have seen the Conservative Party
:57:35. > :57:37.fall apart in mass recriminations within about four days. You are
:57:38. > :57:44.meant to be running the country while this is going on. Look at the
:57:45. > :57:47.newspapers today, it is a farrago of blue on blue attacks, and total
:57:48. > :57:54.incoherence. All sorts of briefings. I have never seen anything like it.
:57:55. > :57:58.You guys are experts on that. Do you think it was a mistake for the Prime
:57:59. > :58:05.Minister to go for Boris Johnson so obviously in PMQs? I will not give
:58:06. > :58:09.advice, and I'm seeing deja vu issues like 25 years ago on
:58:10. > :58:13.Maastricht. But my point is, this is about Britain and the British people
:58:14. > :58:20.want us to conduct this on that basis. It is not about Westminster,
:58:21. > :58:23.it is about them. The Chancellor of the ejector, he was issuing dire
:58:24. > :58:27.warnings about Singapore that he said he was not going to issue. I
:58:28. > :58:34.would like to spend an entire programme on our economic future but
:58:35. > :58:38.I expect we are going to run out of time. The government is a mess. The
:58:39. > :58:42.government is not a mess. And meal will be back with the Sunday
:58:43. > :58:45.Politics within an hour, when he will be talking to Alan Johnston and
:58:46. > :58:48.Michael Howard. -- Andrew Neill. We'll be back next week
:58:49. > :58:50.with the former Bank of England boss Mervyn King and Germany's Finance
:58:51. > :58:53.Minister Wolfgang Schauble