:00:00. > :00:11.Our next Prime Minister - or the wilderness man?
:00:12. > :00:33.This morning Boris Johnson joins the argument over Britain's future.
:00:34. > :00:36.Baloney, piffle, hogwash, Project Fear - the Mayor of London
:00:37. > :00:38.has been characteristically forthright about the views
:00:39. > :00:46.In a little while Mr Johnson and I turn to the nitty gritty
:00:47. > :00:49.of this awesomley important national choice.
:00:50. > :00:51.Wolfgang Schauble says there would be a trade deal
:00:52. > :00:57.But the German finance minister still thinks that to go
:00:58. > :01:02.Staying with the big picture, I'll be talking
:01:03. > :01:04.to Mervyn King, the legendary former Governor of the Bank of England,
:01:05. > :01:16.who has a dark warning about the world economy.
:01:17. > :01:21.there's an election campaign in America.
:01:22. > :01:23.Our own Jon Sopel is here to review the papers,
:01:24. > :01:26.and tell us all about it - along with Labour moderniser,
:01:27. > :01:28.and former would-be leader, Liz Kendall.
:01:29. > :01:31.But we'll leave you we promise on a harmonious, uplifting note -
:01:32. > :01:34.quite a few notes actually - from Benjamin Grosvernor
:01:35. > :01:46.and Hyeynoon Park, to finish the show.
:01:47. > :01:49.And if that doesn't cheer you up and nothing will.
:01:50. > :01:52.But first, the news, with Katherine Downes.
:01:53. > :01:55.Boris Johnson has said it's "absolutely scandalous",
:01:56. > :01:57.that one of the country's biggest business groups
:01:58. > :01:58.suspended its director-general, for suggesting Britain
:01:59. > :02:07.could have a brighter future outside the EU.
:02:08. > :02:10.In an article in the Sunday Telegraph, The Mayor of London,
:02:11. > :02:11.who's campaigning to leave, claimed John Longworth,
:02:12. > :02:14.the head of the British Chambers of Commerce, was a victim
:02:15. > :02:18.Downing Street has denied a suggestion that it put pressure
:02:19. > :02:22.The BCC had said it would remain neutral in the referendum debate.
:02:23. > :02:25.The leading Republican candidates, Donald Trump and Ted Cruz,
:02:26. > :02:28.have each won two states in the latest stage of the race
:02:29. > :02:31.Donald Trump took Lousiana and Kentucky,
:02:32. > :02:33.while his rival won in Kansas and Maine.
:02:34. > :02:35.Bernie Sanders stays in the Democrat race after winning
:02:36. > :02:40.But Hillary Clinton strengthened her lead,
:02:41. > :02:45.Senator Cruz said his victories showed he's the candidate
:02:46. > :02:48.with the best chance of beating Donald Trump -
:02:49. > :02:52.still the Republican front-runner - and going on to win the Presidency:
:02:53. > :02:55.What we are seeing here in Idaho is really what we are seeing
:02:56. > :02:57.all across the country, which is Republicans are coming
:02:58. > :02:59.together, they are uniting behind our campaign.
:03:00. > :03:03.The 65% of Republicans who recognise Donald
:03:04. > :03:06.Trump is not the best candidate to go head with Hillary Clinton.
:03:07. > :03:09.That the odds are too high, he loses, we lose
:03:10. > :03:12.the Supreme Court for a generation, we lose the Bill of Rights,
:03:13. > :03:15.we lose the Senate and what we are seeing is Republicans coalescing
:03:16. > :03:21.Growing numbers of children who are stranded in a migrant camp
:03:22. > :03:23.on the Greek-Macedonian border are suffering respiratory
:03:24. > :03:26.infections, according to the aid agency Doctors Without Borders.
:03:27. > :03:28.The charity says poor sanitation and adverse weather
:03:29. > :03:35.At least 13,000 migrants are now believed to be stranded.
:03:36. > :03:38.A Greek regional governor has called for a state of emergency to allow
:03:39. > :03:43.Driverless lorries are to be trialled on UK roads
:03:44. > :03:48.The Chancellor, George Osborne, is expected to announce next month
:03:49. > :03:52.that tests using driverless technology will begin on the M6.
:03:53. > :03:55.Several companies are currently developing self-driving cars whilst
:03:56. > :04:01.these driverless lorries have already been trialled in Germany.
:04:02. > :04:05.The next news on BBC 1 is at 12.15pm.
:04:06. > :04:29.This is John Longworth, the head of the British chamber of, nurse, he
:04:30. > :04:33.lost his job allegedly after number ten bullying, we will talk about
:04:34. > :04:36.that later. The Sunday Times has a picture of Rupert Murdoch and Jerry
:04:37. > :04:44.hall getting married yesterday and we will talk about that. Scary story
:04:45. > :04:54.here, EU fuels terror and pastures and -- Fascism warns Michael Gove.
:04:55. > :05:01.The Sunday express the EU seeks can stroll of our coast, the Spanish
:05:02. > :05:05.Armada bobbing up, and a different Johnson, we will move quickly beyond
:05:06. > :05:12.that. Top headhunters admit UK bosses pay absurdly high. We will
:05:13. > :05:17.stick with The Observer Liz Kendall because your first story is at the
:05:18. > :05:25.bottom of the front page? That is correct, dominated about our
:05:26. > :05:28.membership of the EU and the story I think is very important is that Alan
:05:29. > :05:33.Johnson and Chuka Umunna are issuing a call to arms amongst Labour
:05:34. > :05:37.members and supporters to go out and make the passionate case were asked
:05:38. > :05:41.to remain part of the EU. We have not heard a great deal from the
:05:42. > :05:49.Labour Party, both buying chaps I am sure but they are not the leaders.
:05:50. > :05:53.-- both buying chaps. The story has been dominated by splits in the Tory
:05:54. > :05:57.party and we have to go out and make the case. This is the biggest
:05:58. > :06:00.political issue we face in a generation and it will rest on
:06:01. > :06:04.Labour members and supporters getting out to vote to make sure we
:06:05. > :06:09.remain part of the EU. There are some on the left of the party who
:06:10. > :06:13.might be provided to about our membership but it's actually about
:06:14. > :06:16.jobs, growth and the politics of solidarity and we have to make the
:06:17. > :06:21.case. You have been covering these things for a fair number of years,
:06:22. > :06:24.the left of the Labour Party back in the 70s and 80s was very
:06:25. > :06:34.anti-European and that in a way is the Jeremy Corbyn tradition. Yes.
:06:35. > :06:37.Those doubts still exist. There was a period where the social chapter
:06:38. > :06:44.came into Europe and labour embraced it because of workers rights and
:06:45. > :06:48.suddenly the Labour Party became very European. My vantage point is
:06:49. > :06:51.3000 miles away but I have been struck over the past few weeks
:06:52. > :06:55.trying to watch the Labour Party, just how quiet it has felt that the
:06:56. > :06:59.Labour Party have been on the whole subject, they don't seem to be
:07:00. > :07:04.leading the fight at all. Without doubt we have to make the passionate
:07:05. > :07:08.case, we still have one in five voters undecided, many of those are
:07:09. > :07:11.women and I would like to see more women having a stronger voice in
:07:12. > :07:18.this campaign because at the moment it is very male dominated. That's a
:07:19. > :07:22.fair point. Terrifying front page from the Sunday Times, the EU fuels
:07:23. > :07:27.terror and fascism according to Michael Gove. We have already had
:07:28. > :07:30.what is being called Project Fear, we saw the way the Scottish
:07:31. > :07:35.referendum was fought with a sense of being frightened and we get a
:07:36. > :07:39.paragraph like this, a warning that staying in the EU would make it
:07:40. > :07:44.harder to identify terrorists and keep the UK safe and accused
:07:45. > :07:50.Brussels of fuelling arise in Hitler worshippers across the continent. It
:07:51. > :07:55.all sounds pretty terrifying. Sounds like Project Fear is in full
:07:56. > :07:59.throttle on both sides. Exactly. I wonder what people who are trying to
:08:00. > :08:04.weigh up the arguments will make, will they believe it if the visions
:08:05. > :08:10.are both so apocalyptic on either side, no room for nuance. It is all
:08:11. > :08:15.getting a bit show tee, this business of John Longworth losing
:08:16. > :08:19.his job, we don't really know, number ten denies bullying him, a
:08:20. > :08:22.lot of people claim he was bullied but the British chamber of commerce
:08:23. > :08:26.were obliged to fire him because they want to stay neutral but I
:08:27. > :08:31.think almost every public figure is under pressure to say which side
:08:32. > :08:36.they are on. Yes, and particularly in industry because that is a
:08:37. > :08:40.clinching argument to say a certain number of captains of industry say
:08:41. > :08:45.Britain is better off or worse off. I think it is those voices that will
:08:46. > :08:50.convince people in the end, there will be a lot of heat and fury and
:08:51. > :08:52.it will be the leaders of companies like Toyota and Rolls-Royce who have
:08:53. > :08:57.raised real concerns about what would happen to their businesses if
:08:58. > :09:02.Britain left the EU. I think the public is more likely to leave those
:09:03. > :09:06.voices than politicians. If John Longworth is watching you have only
:09:07. > :09:13.been suspended, not fired, that was my mistake. Let's turn to the job
:09:14. > :09:19.you do everyday, George Osborne or an American story? I was going to
:09:20. > :09:24.talk about the debate over whether there should be televised discussion
:09:25. > :09:28.the referendum. In America we have had endless TV debates of varying
:09:29. > :09:33.quality. Extraordinary screaming matches. Extraordinary screaming
:09:34. > :09:38.matches, Donald Trump discussing allsorts of things aside from the
:09:39. > :09:44.strength of his candidacy which we won't go into. Two principal
:09:45. > :09:58.candidates, they are now known, Ted Cruz is now known as lying and Marco
:09:59. > :10:02.Rubio is known as little Marco. I just wonder it you could have a fair
:10:03. > :10:09.and balanced debate two days out from the referendum. Apparently the
:10:10. > :10:14.pro-EU side are getting a bit queasy about the project. Everybody should
:10:15. > :10:19.be able to watch the big beasts from both sides test one another. I
:10:20. > :10:24.completely agree and it is one of the things which has struck me about
:10:25. > :10:27.American democracy, you have it at grassroots level where politicians
:10:28. > :10:31.have to campaign on a local level but you also have the expectation
:10:32. > :10:35.that they will face a TV audience on a regular basis and put their
:10:36. > :10:39.arguments to the test and it just seems strange we have these debates,
:10:40. > :10:44.are we going to have a TV debate or not? Absolutely if it had not been
:10:45. > :10:48.for Europe we would have been talking about nothing except the
:10:49. > :10:54.looming budget. A big fight about pensions and George Osborne seems to
:10:55. > :10:59.have had a climb-down. Yes, a story about not just the climb-down over
:11:00. > :11:05.pensions but over raising social housing rents and I think if there
:11:06. > :11:08.is that you turn it will be welcome but there are some long-term
:11:09. > :11:12.challenges the Chancellor needs to address in the budget and I wanted
:11:13. > :11:16.to pick up something here. We are tiptoeing nervously into the 21st
:11:17. > :11:21.century. The Sunday Herald. We tiptoeing nervously into the 21st
:11:22. > :11:28.cannot get it on paper, from Glasgow, the front page. Very
:11:29. > :11:32.interesting front-page story, if you are born into a poor family you will
:11:33. > :11:38.die ten years earlier than if you are born into a better off families.
:11:39. > :11:42.This lack of life chances for people who are born in more disadvantaged
:11:43. > :11:46.areas is a huge challenge, we will never succeed as individuals or a
:11:47. > :11:50.country and everyone has a chance to get on in life and what I would like
:11:51. > :11:54.to see in the budget is instead of doing an inheritance tax cut for the
:11:55. > :11:58.very few at the top, I want to see that money going into the early
:11:59. > :12:02.years because what happens in those years has a big impact on how will
:12:03. > :12:07.you do in later life and that is the kind of budget I would like to see
:12:08. > :12:11.George Osborne present. Your leader is in some trouble in the Sunday
:12:12. > :12:15.Times but that is not unusual. I would like to move to the story you
:12:16. > :12:17.Times but that is not unusual. I have been obsessed by, Donald Trump,
:12:18. > :12:23.an amazing haircut with this picture. Yes, the child with a
:12:24. > :12:28.Donald Trump comb over by the look of things. He has a pacifier in his
:12:29. > :12:34.mouth and does not look very pacified by being in the arms of
:12:35. > :12:38.Donald Trump. He looks deeply upset. The phenomenon is extraordinary, it
:12:39. > :12:44.is real, there is enormous support for him. Among white working class,
:12:45. > :12:49.among all sorts of groups, all demographics. He is a student of the
:12:50. > :12:55.polls and he takes you through what he is doing in each demographic and
:12:56. > :12:58.is winning in most of them. Chances are he will become the Republican
:12:59. > :13:04.nominee and will be fighting in a head to head with Hillary Clinton.
:13:05. > :13:08.People were saying that Marco Rubio would come through and Ted Cruz is
:13:09. > :13:15.finished, and cover people seem to be wrong. Clever people have been
:13:16. > :13:17.wrong thread. This is the lead story of the Washington post which will be
:13:18. > :13:26.hitting the newsstands in a few hours. Talking about the victories
:13:27. > :13:29.he had in Kansas overnight and it will boost his bid to become the
:13:30. > :13:35.chief alternative to Donald Trump. What you will have is Ted Cruz is
:13:36. > :13:40.not the establishment candidate, Ted Cruz is low that even more by the
:13:41. > :13:43.Republican establishment because he is seen as ideological and
:13:44. > :13:47.flinching, very much to the Christian right and has not got one
:13:48. > :13:52.Republican supporting him even though, in the Senate, even though
:13:53. > :14:01.he is a senator himself. They do not like him as a human being? Here's
:14:02. > :14:04.hard to warm to. You have Donald Trump and I think it will be
:14:05. > :14:10.difficult to stop him getting all the way to the nomination. I just
:14:11. > :14:14.wanted to pick out the leader on The Observer which says we have to
:14:15. > :14:20.understand the root causes of the very real anger and frustration
:14:21. > :14:25.which Donald Trump is picking up on. America may be militarily strong but
:14:26. > :14:30.is not dealing with issues in Syria, issues on the economy and people are
:14:31. > :14:34.angry. I think this is the same argument in Europe, unless you give
:14:35. > :14:38.people hope that they can have a better life and deal with these
:14:39. > :14:42.issues... We will talk to Mervyn King about this later on, but we're
:14:43. > :14:50.running out of time so a thought on Mother's Day. My thought on Mother's
:14:51. > :14:58.Day is this piece which says, I wouldn't say forget mothers, but
:14:59. > :15:03.this talks about celebrating aunties and I am very proud to be one. One
:15:04. > :15:07.in five women in their 40s now are childless and I am one of those
:15:08. > :15:14.women but I love my nieces. I think an aunties day would be great.
:15:15. > :15:21.Finally, Ruppert Murdoch. I love looking at the Sunday newspapers,
:15:22. > :15:27.two Young starlets who have just got married, we have Ruppert Murdoch and
:15:28. > :15:31.Jerry hall having got married on the street yesterday. Then a glittering
:15:32. > :15:37.occasion with the good and are great, some of the good and some of
:15:38. > :15:40.the great. Rupert Murdoch has been a great antiestablishment figure but
:15:41. > :15:50.is so part of the establishment. All the people they are. Top Michael
:15:51. > :15:56.Gove. The former Justice Secretary was there. The pictures look great
:15:57. > :16:02.and it does look like a very happy and joyous occasion.
:16:03. > :16:04.Snow in the north, where winter is always coming.
:16:05. > :16:07.Winter Fell was briefly cut off but down here in Kings Landing it's
:16:08. > :16:11.I hoped to have John Snow here to bring you the weather,
:16:12. > :16:21.So making do in the weather studio is Peter Gibbs.
:16:22. > :16:30.Winter definitely still rules at the moment, we had a widespread frost
:16:31. > :16:33.overnight. We were sent this recent picture of snow falling in
:16:34. > :16:38.Stoke-on-Trent so there is still something wintry out there. The area
:16:39. > :16:43.of showers producing that sleet and snow is moving its way across the
:16:44. > :16:47.west Midlands. It will struggle to settle, and as you go further north
:16:48. > :16:51.that is where you break out into some of the best sunshine. It will
:16:52. > :16:56.look magnificent in those clear skies today. A bit more cloud from
:16:57. > :17:01.Northern Ireland, patchy rain into the west. Another cold day
:17:02. > :17:08.everywhere, still a bit of a chilly wind blowing in from the north.
:17:09. > :17:12.Colder still overnight tonight, and with clear skies and light winds, a
:17:13. > :17:17.widespread frost. Towns and cities dropping below freezing quite
:17:18. > :17:22.widely, but in rural areas it will be down to minus ten potentially in
:17:23. > :17:27.some of those Scottish glens. Looking ahead, Monday is a crisp
:17:28. > :17:31.day, Tuesday still on the chilly side, but things are starting to
:17:32. > :17:36.change, becoming more unsettled and we will be exchanging winter for
:17:37. > :17:37.something more springlike by the end of the week.
:17:38. > :17:40.At last! As Governor of the Bank of England,
:17:41. > :17:44.Mervyn King was at the centre of events when the great crash
:17:45. > :17:46.of 2008 shook this country, taking down financial institutions
:17:47. > :17:48.and ruining many businesses The costs to the taxpayer were huge,
:17:49. > :17:53.recovery painfully slow. But now he thinks we could be
:17:54. > :17:55.on the verge of another financial disaster because,
:17:56. > :18:06.frankly, we haven't learned Good morning. We were talking in the
:18:07. > :18:12.paper review about general anger against the elite, is your economic
:18:13. > :18:18.warning part of the reason, do you think? I think so, I think in the
:18:19. > :18:21.wake of the last crisis, government and central banks did boost
:18:22. > :18:25.employment and increase spending and in the short run that prevented a
:18:26. > :18:29.rise in unemployment that we saw in the great depression so we avoided a
:18:30. > :18:33.great depression, but since we didn't put right the fundamental
:18:34. > :18:37.problems, living standards have continued to grow slowly, we have
:18:38. > :18:41.seen an extremely slow recovery across the whole world and anger has
:18:42. > :18:46.built up because the people who are suffering words those who felt
:18:47. > :18:51.responsible for the crisis. And usual ways of trying to get out of
:18:52. > :18:56.this problem of people feeling very angry, low interest rates, that has
:18:57. > :19:02.been tried and tried and it has run out really. Yes, it was sensible to
:19:03. > :19:06.cut interest rates but it is a temporary solution, it is a
:19:07. > :19:10.painkiller if you like, and if all you do with painkillers is keep
:19:11. > :19:15.taking them and not deal with the underlying symptoms, you don't get
:19:16. > :19:18.better. You said in your book pities virtually certain we are facing
:19:19. > :19:23.another financial crash, why is that? In the long run the banking
:19:24. > :19:28.system is still potentially subject to the sort of runs we saw during
:19:29. > :19:31.the crisis. No one knows when that will be but what is clear about the
:19:32. > :19:36.world economy is that most countries if not every country around the
:19:37. > :19:41.world could say, if only the rest of the world was growing normally we
:19:42. > :19:43.would be fine, but since it isn't we aren't, so we get countries
:19:44. > :19:49.competing with each other to push down interest rates. You have the
:19:50. > :19:55.reputation of being a cautious man, but you say in the book that unless
:19:56. > :20:00.we get reform of the financial institutions, another crash will
:20:01. > :20:05.happen sooner rather than later, which will scare people watching.
:20:06. > :20:11.The financial system is not safe enough, but we do have 10-20 years
:20:12. > :20:15.to put into place measures that will make our banking system safer. In
:20:16. > :20:20.the short term we need to be worried about the rest of the world. The
:20:21. > :20:24.euro area, China, which is not growing as rapidly as it claims to
:20:25. > :20:29.be, many countries around the world are now starting to compete with
:20:30. > :20:33.each other rather than cooperate. So we should be worried about the
:20:34. > :20:39.failure of a Chinese bank setting off the ripples we saw last time
:20:40. > :20:41.round? Yes, I think one of the things people didn't appreciate
:20:42. > :20:45.enough last time round and the United States doesn't appreciate
:20:46. > :20:50.today is that events around the globe can affect our own economy. It
:20:51. > :20:54.is very clear from the book that some of the things you want to
:20:55. > :20:58.happen have been talked about for a long time, dividing ordinary banks
:20:59. > :21:04.that ordinary people use to put their money into from what has been
:21:05. > :21:08.called Casino banking. In the end you are talking about a lack of
:21:09. > :21:12.political leadership at the top level, I wonder why you think that
:21:13. > :21:18.has happened. Is it because frankly politicians have been intimidated by
:21:19. > :21:24.the bankers and financial services? I don't try to split banks into
:21:25. > :21:29.narrow and wide, I want them like motorists to take out insurance
:21:30. > :21:34.before they go on the road. If you try to drive a faster and more
:21:35. > :21:38.dangerous car, you pay a higher insurance premiums. You don't need
:21:39. > :21:44.to ban people, and that flexibility is one of the key points of the
:21:45. > :21:49.book. I think for politicians, it is very difficult for countries in the
:21:50. > :21:54.end to work for each other. I have been to every GE 20 meeting until I
:21:55. > :21:57.left the bank and most people were looking at their home constituencies
:21:58. > :22:02.and domestic considerations, not facing up to the major challenges.
:22:03. > :22:08.But there was a problem before the crisis and I suspect it hasn't gone
:22:09. > :22:12.away, that the large financial institutions had an influence. It
:22:13. > :22:26.wasn't crude in the sense of bribing people in any shape or form. I'm
:22:27. > :22:28.sure there are some countries in the world where that is true, not here.
:22:29. > :22:31.But first politicians depend on finance and funding, and you can see
:22:32. > :22:33.that clearly in the United States how they depend on financial
:22:34. > :22:35.institutions to pay for their campaigns, and hear people were
:22:36. > :22:42.captured by the apparent success, everything was going well. They were
:22:43. > :22:45.starry eyed. Yes, because this was a sector that was making ever bigger
:22:46. > :22:55.profits, but what risks are they taking? In the book also, you are
:22:56. > :23:00.very critical of the eurozone. You say it is a terrible disaster, you
:23:01. > :23:03.suggest Germany might be better off leaving the euro zone but they will
:23:04. > :23:08.go far deeper integration to try to make it work, and you talk about the
:23:09. > :23:13.importance of national sovereignty, people having control over their
:23:14. > :23:19.destinies. Reading this book, I came to the conclusion you must be in
:23:20. > :23:23.favour of us leaving the EU. I don't think you can draw that conclusion.
:23:24. > :23:30.It is clear we are influenced by what is going on in the euro area,
:23:31. > :23:38.and I think it has been an economic if not disaster very serious
:23:39. > :23:44.problem. Most divisive forces since the Second World War, you call it.
:23:45. > :23:48.Germans wanted to bind Germany into Europe so the rest of Europe would
:23:49. > :23:52.never again be frightened of Germany, it has had the opposite
:23:53. > :23:57.effect. If you look at the attitudes towards Germany today in Greece and
:23:58. > :24:01.even Italy, you see there is more concerned about Germany than ever
:24:02. > :24:07.before, and this is a headache for Germany. They didn't set out to find
:24:08. > :24:12.themselves in this position but the economic arithmetic has led them to
:24:13. > :24:16.it. That's why in the long run the euro area is something we should be
:24:17. > :24:21.concerned about. Isn't the problem, so long as we are inside the EU, we
:24:22. > :24:28.are tied to the euro area very closely. Therefore, if it goes down,
:24:29. > :24:36.if it gets into terrible trouble, we will be badly affected. That will be
:24:37. > :24:39.true in or out, the euro area is our biggest trading partner, that will
:24:40. > :24:47.carry on being the case, therefore it matters to us what goes on there.
:24:48. > :24:50.I worry this will be a battle between the political will of an
:24:51. > :24:55.elite that created this and stands now admit it was a mistake, and
:24:56. > :24:57.economic arithmetic and we will all suffer from that. On that cheerful
:24:58. > :25:02.note, thank you for joining us. Germany's Finance Minister,
:25:03. > :25:04.Wolfgang Schauble, is one of Europe's most experienced
:25:05. > :25:06.politicians, with a career spanning 30 years and a key ally
:25:07. > :25:09.of Chancellor Merkel. So there was great interest
:25:10. > :25:11.when he appeared at the British Chambers of Commerce annual
:25:12. > :25:14.conference in London last week. Sitting alongside George Osborne,
:25:15. > :25:16.he said Germany would cry if Britain I caught up with Dr Schauble
:25:17. > :25:20.afterwards, and we began by talking about the impact of the migration
:25:21. > :25:22.crisis in Europe. Had Germany been wrong
:25:23. > :25:25.to open its doors and invite TRANSLATION: We have not
:25:26. > :25:34.invited the refugees, Europe is confronted with
:25:35. > :25:40.the situation in the Middle East, and whether we want this or not
:25:41. > :25:43.we will have to take on more responsibility, and I think we can
:25:44. > :25:47.do so better together. If Europe is going to avoid having
:25:48. > :25:49.barbed wire between the borders and all the old borders going up
:25:50. > :25:52.inside the Schengen area, then there's a feeling at the moment
:25:53. > :25:57.that there has to be a much stronger, almost military
:25:58. > :26:01.border around Europe. Yes, of course, we will have
:26:02. > :26:08.to control effectively the external borders of the EU,
:26:09. > :26:11.that's quite clear. Any community that has no border
:26:12. > :26:14.controls within it has to control But this isn't the only question,
:26:15. > :26:18.it is also a question of cooperation with our neighbouring countries
:26:19. > :26:21.so that the number of those who want to come to Europe
:26:22. > :26:24.will actually be reduced to a level The European summit on Monday
:26:25. > :26:30.will of course also involve Turkey and we will discuss how,
:26:31. > :26:32.together with Turkey, You mentioned Turkey just now,
:26:33. > :26:41.and there's an obvious kind of deal to be done of some kind,
:26:42. > :26:43.but what would you say to people in Britain,
:26:44. > :26:46.for instance, who are very alarmed by the thought of 70 million Turkish
:26:47. > :26:49.people joining the EU and having free movement,
:26:50. > :26:55.for instance, to Britain? Well, it will be a long time before
:26:56. > :26:59.we reach the end of negotiations with Turkey about accession
:27:00. > :27:04.to the European Union. Actually, the German government has
:27:05. > :27:09.major doubts about whether Turkey But this is a question
:27:10. > :27:14.for the coming years, it is not The German people are now having
:27:15. > :27:23.to absorb a large number of immigrants and pay a high price
:27:24. > :27:26.to look after them properly, and at the same time the German
:27:27. > :27:29.people are having to deal with a lot Do you think, as a government,
:27:30. > :27:35.you have been pushing your Well, at the moment
:27:36. > :27:40.we are in quite good shape, We have the lowest unemployment rate
:27:41. > :27:50.since reunification, we have the highest level
:27:51. > :27:53.of employment that we have ever had, we have the highest increase
:27:54. > :27:56.in real wages and salaries. The refugee problem,
:27:57. > :28:00.of course, needs a solution, Those that will stay permanently
:28:01. > :28:10.will have to be integrated well, and once the number is reduced
:28:11. > :28:12.to a more acceptable level, We've had immigrants from Italy,
:28:13. > :28:16.Spain, Portugal, Turkey since the Second World War and it's
:28:17. > :28:18.been successful and Can I turn to the possibility
:28:19. > :28:22.of Britain leaving the EU Because one of the things that
:28:23. > :28:27.people who want us to leave say is that in the end Germany wants
:28:28. > :28:30.to sell German cars and washing machines and many other goods
:28:31. > :28:33.to Britain, and we have many things There would be a trade deal and it
:28:34. > :28:39.would be a perfectly reasonable one because it is in both sides'
:28:40. > :28:46.interests to carry on trading. I believe that of course
:28:47. > :28:49.we will still have trade, we also have trade with China
:28:50. > :28:52.and the whole world, but there's a big difference
:28:53. > :28:55.between having a common market with common rules without any
:28:56. > :28:58.controls, a market that is open, Isn't it possible for the UK
:28:59. > :29:05.to have the advantages of the internal market,
:29:06. > :29:07.the single trading area, without paying in and without
:29:08. > :29:15.accepting free movement of people? No, you are either in the single
:29:16. > :29:20.market or you are not in the single market, and if you are not in it
:29:21. > :29:23.then you have trade agreements. Of course there are countries
:29:24. > :29:26.in Europe that are part of the single market
:29:27. > :29:28.but they still have to pay into the budget of the community
:29:29. > :29:31.and they have to accept the free So, naturally they have
:29:32. > :29:36.all the disadvantages of the common market and they are not involved
:29:37. > :29:38.in the decision-making process I cannot really see why the UK
:29:39. > :29:48.would be interested in staying within the single market
:29:49. > :29:50.without being able to make For people watching,
:29:51. > :29:57.they might say, in the end, after all the fuss and the noise
:29:58. > :30:00.and so on, there would be a perfectly acceptable trading deal
:30:01. > :30:04.which would be good for Germany, good for Britain and good
:30:05. > :30:07.for the other European members, you don't have to be part
:30:08. > :30:09.of the EU for Germany, Britain and France to
:30:10. > :30:15.trade with each other. Once again, of course there's trade
:30:16. > :30:20.with all countries in the world, but whether you are within
:30:21. > :30:24.the single market or not is a major difference and you can either be
:30:25. > :30:28.in it or be out of it. Whether the UK wants to stay
:30:29. > :30:31.in the single market will be decided in the referendum,
:30:32. > :30:33.but if the decision is taken to leave, the UK will no longer be
:30:34. > :30:37.in the single market unless you find a new treaty, a new contract
:30:38. > :30:41.where you can be a member of the single market
:30:42. > :30:43.without actually being a member of the EU, and you will still have
:30:44. > :30:46.to accept the free movement of people that goes with it,
:30:47. > :30:49.and you will still have to pay contributions so it
:30:50. > :30:52.doesn't really make sense. And the British people
:30:53. > :30:54.base their decisions What happens to the rest
:30:55. > :31:05.of the EU if Britain leaves? Are you worried about a slow
:31:06. > :31:11.collapse of the institution itself? I believe that Europe would be
:31:12. > :31:15.weaker without the UK. The UK is a strong partner,
:31:16. > :31:18.and if the UK left this would weaken Europe, and I don't think it will be
:31:19. > :31:24.in the British interest either. Of course, if there was a negative
:31:25. > :31:27.decision, we would not commit suicide, we would still try
:31:28. > :31:30.to fight for the best. Let's say the referendum was to go
:31:31. > :31:33.that way, we would have years of the most difficult negotiations,
:31:34. > :31:36.which would be very difficult And for years, we would have such
:31:37. > :31:44.insecurity that would be a poison to the economy in the UK,
:31:45. > :31:46.the European continent, Do you think the mood in the rest
:31:47. > :31:56.of the EU would be angry, would be vindictive,
:31:57. > :32:01.would be vengeful, or do you think European politicians would then
:32:02. > :32:04.try to do serious and sensible deals with Britain if Britain
:32:05. > :32:11.voted to leave? Of course we will be sad to start
:32:12. > :32:15.with, and I think most in Europe will agree with the European Union
:32:16. > :32:18.that it would be to the detriment of Europe, it will be a weaker
:32:19. > :32:21.Europe and this cannot be Of course then we would try,
:32:22. > :32:30.and this is true of life in general, you have a setback and still you try
:32:31. > :32:33.and go on, and we will But I do believe that it is better
:32:34. > :32:40.to avoid such catastrophes rather than try to think how to get well
:32:41. > :32:48.again after the catastrophe. Dr Schauble, thank you very much
:32:49. > :32:51.indeed for coming to talk to me. The German Finance Minister,
:32:52. > :33:04.Wolfgang Schauble, talking If you are wondering about the
:33:05. > :33:05.wheelchair, he survived an assassination attempt in the 1980s
:33:06. > :33:07.and kept going. In a moment, I'll be
:33:08. > :33:09.talking to Boris Johnson, but first, a look at what's coming
:33:10. > :33:17.up immediately after this programme. Join us from Cardiff where Merlin
:33:18. > :33:21.will be helping us debate whether animals should be used in
:33:22. > :33:24.entertainment. Then in the human world is it the mother ring or the
:33:25. > :33:28.mother that matters? And would it be fair to raise the pension age? See
:33:29. > :33:36.you at 10am on BBC One. fair to raise the pension age? See
:33:37. > :33:41.dogs on this programme but the moment you have been waiting for,
:33:42. > :33:42.Boris Johnson here to talk to me about Brexit. Good morning.
:33:43. > :33:49.Boris Johnson here to talk to me pro-minister was in your seat he
:33:50. > :33:55.made an appeal which fell on deaf ears, but I said let's give you a
:33:56. > :33:59.chance to make your case straightforwardly so I will do the
:34:00. > :34:04.same to you. Tell us why you have decided we would be better off
:34:05. > :34:09.outside the EU? We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity which
:34:10. > :34:12.will not come again to strike a new series of relationships, free trade
:34:13. > :34:19.deals, with the growth economies around the world whilst maintaining,
:34:20. > :34:25.as Will Gong Schauble -- as Wolfgang Schauble just said, maintaining our
:34:26. > :34:29.agreements with the EU. I think staying in the European Union as it
:34:30. > :34:34.evolves to an ever centralised federalist structure in the effort
:34:35. > :34:40.to preserve the euro is the risky option. The best thing for us
:34:41. > :34:43.because we are a great country, proud economy and pro-democracy, is
:34:44. > :34:50.to take back control over our borders, over the huge sums of money
:34:51. > :34:56.that we send to the European Union and to take back large amounts of
:34:57. > :35:01.control over our democracy. That is what clinched it for me. I will
:35:02. > :35:07.describe, if you want, the journey that led me to this conclusion. We
:35:08. > :35:12.will come to that but part of that journey is I want to clean up
:35:13. > :35:15.exactly what you think and want to happen now? Relatively recently you
:35:16. > :35:19.were arguing that we could have a referendum, vote to leave, they
:35:20. > :35:23.would be so panicked and shocked that we would get a much better deal
:35:24. > :35:29.and then we could stay? I have to say that I think that is certainly
:35:30. > :35:34.true that if you vote to leave all your options are good. You could
:35:35. > :35:40.certainly strike a great free trade deal as has just been said with the
:35:41. > :35:45.European Union. But what I don't think you can do is hope that if you
:35:46. > :35:51.remain, stay in the EU for any real reform. What we were told, if you
:35:52. > :35:58.remember, what we were told, the stated government policy was that we
:35:59. > :36:00.should have a reformed EU, a fundamentally reformed, wholesale
:36:01. > :36:05.change in Britain's relationship with the EU was promised. That has
:36:06. > :36:09.obviously not been delivered. We were told at the time that Britain
:36:10. > :36:14.would be perfectly safe to walk away, by the government and the
:36:15. > :36:17.Prime Minister. That rhetoric has now very much been changed and I
:36:18. > :36:22.think that was right, the policy was right then. We are confident about
:36:23. > :36:29.the future of this country and at the moment... Those people watching
:36:30. > :36:33.need to be clear, your view is that we could vote no, leave the EU and
:36:34. > :36:40.there could be a second referendum coming back in on better terms? I
:36:41. > :36:44.don't think that is necessary. If we voted no, that would be it, the
:36:45. > :36:50.British people would have spoken and we would be out of the EU. There
:36:51. > :36:55.could not be a second referendum? What do you do, you vote to leave
:36:56. > :37:00.and then you have the opportunity to strike a series of free trade deals
:37:01. > :37:04.around the world. Which are currently forbidden. Can I explain
:37:05. > :37:08.why that is so important? Europe is not the growth area of the world at
:37:09. > :37:11.the moment. If you look at the relative performance of the Eurozone
:37:12. > :37:18.economies and the rest of the world it is tragic. Asked yourself, who is
:37:19. > :37:24.in a better position to negotiate free-trade deals with the rest of
:37:25. > :37:27.the world? The UK looking after the interests of British business and
:37:28. > :37:32.industry? Or the European Commission who currently have sole
:37:33. > :37:40.responsibility for negotiating those agreements? And of whom only 3.6% of
:37:41. > :37:46.the officials are British. I am asked myself how to persuade you to
:37:47. > :37:50.give me slightly shorter answers, because we have a lot to get
:37:51. > :37:56.through. Let's assume we voted to leave, we fought for Brexit. The
:37:57. > :38:01.thing which happens immediately after that is article 50 is
:38:02. > :38:07.triggered and we immediately begin negotiations about leaving. You are
:38:08. > :38:12.shaking your head, why? As soon as you leave the EU treaties remain in
:38:13. > :38:14.force for at least two years, they are grandfathered on and you have
:38:15. > :38:19.plenty of time to negotiate new free-trade arrangements. I have to
:38:20. > :38:28.say that I think one of the feeblest arguments from the remainders is
:38:29. > :38:32.that we are so emaciated in our diplomatic and commercial abilities
:38:33. > :38:35.today that we could not negotiate free-trade our self and that we have
:38:36. > :38:42.two entrusted to these brilliant officials in the European
:38:43. > :38:47.Commission. I think that is absurd. But 66 different new trade deals
:38:48. > :38:50.would have to be negotiated and that is for everything from shoes and
:38:51. > :38:58.marmalade, it's a complicated process. This is like, the jailer
:38:59. > :39:04.has accidentally left the door open and people can see the land beyond
:39:05. > :39:08.and everyone is suddenly wrangling about the terrors of the world
:39:09. > :39:14.outside. It would be wonderful. It would be a huge weight lifted from
:39:15. > :39:19.British business. It is very sad... Someone like John Longworth who
:39:20. > :39:23.shares my view and has great experience of British business and
:39:24. > :39:26.industry should have paid quite a heavy price it seems from what has
:39:27. > :39:31.happened today for sharing the optimistic view. You said the agents
:39:32. > :39:37.of Project Fear had got him out by bullying, who did you mean? It is
:39:38. > :39:42.certainly the case as far as I can tell... Did you mean the Prime
:39:43. > :39:45.Minister? He has been asked to step down for expressing a passionate and
:39:46. > :39:52.optimistic view of this country's chances. Perhaps for the benefit,
:39:53. > :40:01.can you imagine the CBI doing the same to any of its leading figures?
:40:02. > :40:05.You don't think necessarily that number ten believed or manipulated
:40:06. > :40:11.this? Younger, fitter journalists than this can discover what
:40:12. > :40:14.happened. Let's turn back to the sunlit uplands you were describing,
:40:15. > :40:27.because you for you get to them there would be pitied of uncertainty
:40:28. > :40:37.and dislocation. You use the analogy of the Nike. There are plenty of
:40:38. > :40:41.people who think the cost of getting out would be virtually nil and the
:40:42. > :40:50.cost of staying inward beehive. There would be an and economic shock
:40:51. > :40:54.to produce downward dislocation. Gerard Lyons says very clearly that
:40:55. > :41:00.Britain would be better off outside and reformed EU. Leaving the EU
:41:01. > :41:06.would be an economic shock and most of these shocks depress economic
:41:07. > :41:10.activity. Thus economic forecasts which focus on a couple of years
:41:11. > :41:17.ahead show that leaving the EU is always worse than the alternative.
:41:18. > :41:25.After that... That's not true. That is what he said! These are his own
:41:26. > :41:30.words. The best future is to get out of one and reformed EU. Can I just
:41:31. > :41:35.explain for the benefit of the viewers who remain faithful
:41:36. > :41:41.listening to this conversation, why I think, what I think the problem
:41:42. > :41:49.with the EU is. It boils down... I have given you the chance to do
:41:50. > :41:54.that. Let me explain. One last time. It has become injurious to
:41:55. > :42:01.government in this country. Even as Mayor of London I have encountered
:42:02. > :42:07.the delay caused by the EU. Crossrail, the tunnels, the EU
:42:08. > :42:12.decided, such is the Stockholm syndrome capture of officials in
:42:13. > :42:19.this country, they decided to interpret the directive on
:42:20. > :42:23.trans-European networks in such a way to insist Crossrail tunnels had
:42:24. > :42:30.to be 50% bigger to accommodate German trains. In the unlikelihood
:42:31. > :42:33.of German trains having to go through these tunnels. That would
:42:34. > :42:38.have cost billions and we had to spend literally a year to fend off
:42:39. > :42:44.that demand. Second it was horrific to be told that there was nothing I
:42:45. > :42:47.could do, nothing the Secretary of State for an sport could do, to
:42:48. > :42:51.ensure we had safer tipper trucks on the streets of London to stop
:42:52. > :42:57.cyclists and vulnerable road users being crushed. The EU agreed with
:42:58. > :43:01.their argument in 2015 and has put forward legislation to allow safer
:43:02. > :43:06.tipper trucks. It is blocked and there is no chance to get it through
:43:07. > :43:12.until 2021 or 2022 because it is currently opposed by, the commission
:43:13. > :43:16.might be in favour, but it is opposed by the French and the
:43:17. > :43:23.Swedish because they have truck businesses which don't want to see
:43:24. > :43:30.it. What has happened... It is coming in, this is Project Fear. In
:43:31. > :43:33.2011, 2012 we decided to give up type approval for vehicles to the
:43:34. > :43:39.European Union. We can no longer control what type of trucks we have
:43:40. > :43:42.on the streets of London. That, for me, is a very important issue of
:43:43. > :43:48.political control and accountability. People feel it very
:43:49. > :43:54.strongly. The third area... We need to move on, we have a lot to cover.
:43:55. > :43:58.I will tell you what I will cover. This is not the Boris Johnson sure,
:43:59. > :44:05.it is The Andrew Marr Show, I ask the questions. I have complete
:44:06. > :44:09.sovereignty. Unlike the UK! The single market, you were always a
:44:10. > :44:15.great supporter of it, you accept that if we leave the EU we must
:44:16. > :44:20.leave the single market? The single market people will say what do you
:44:21. > :44:24.mean by the single market, it is a huge territory now which comprises
:44:25. > :44:28.the member states of the European Union. Would we be able to trade
:44:29. > :44:33.freely with that territory? I think we would. But would we leave it as
:44:34. > :44:38.an institution? If I am trying to sell my marmalade to Italy and the
:44:39. > :44:45.Italians say your marmalade has too many PEPs purge are and we will not
:44:46. > :44:59.accept it, then there are rules -- too many pips purge are. You would
:45:00. > :45:04.still be able to sell your marmalade. They would be keeping it
:45:05. > :45:09.out and if I am outside the single market I'm outside the rules which
:45:10. > :45:14.stop discrimination. There are plenty of countries who export more
:45:15. > :45:16.per capita to the EU than we do, Switzerland is not in the European
:45:17. > :45:21.Union and they get around this problem. One of the interesting
:45:22. > :45:27.features... Are you in favour of leaving the European market or not?
:45:28. > :45:33.One of the interesting features of the last 30, 40 years is American
:45:34. > :45:37.exports to the European Union, the US, have increased faster than ours.
:45:38. > :45:42.They are not members of the single market. Let me explain what the
:45:43. > :45:48.single market is, it is a single judicial system whereby more and
:45:49. > :45:49.more power is taken away from... Individual member states and given
:45:50. > :46:02.EU institutions. And Boris Johnson has said I want to
:46:03. > :46:07.campaign for the single market. For free trade with the European Union.
:46:08. > :46:11.That is what we need and what we will get. Let me explain why the
:46:12. > :46:18.single market is evolving in the direction that I think... I would
:46:19. > :46:23.like to be able to campaign for the single market. Boris Johnson, on
:46:24. > :46:29.this programme. It depends how you define your terms. I'm talking about
:46:30. > :46:33.the great trade zone that is the European Union, I want to be able to
:46:34. > :46:40.trade freely with that zone, but I don't want to be subject to more and
:46:41. > :46:44.more top-down regulation. Can I just explain what the problem is with the
:46:45. > :46:54.single market, because it is a legal problem. When you vote in this
:46:55. > :46:58.referendum, the status quo isn't on the ballot paper. You cannot vote
:46:59. > :47:03.just to remain in the single market because the single market is
:47:04. > :47:09.changing. The project now is to rescue the euro by creating an ever
:47:10. > :47:16.denser series of political arrangements based around... The
:47:17. > :47:25.eurozone. We are not in the eurozone. It is clear that they want
:47:26. > :47:29.to harmonise property rights, social law, in all sorts of ways they will
:47:30. > :47:39.impact the entire European Union, including the UK. You have changed
:47:40. > :47:43.your view, you used to be in favour of the single market, I've got the
:47:44. > :47:49.quotes, now you are saying we should get out of it. You are equivocating
:47:50. > :47:57.on the term single market. It is not a complicated term. It is because it
:47:58. > :48:08.involves a top-down system of a single judicial... An area in which
:48:09. > :48:12.there is real free trade. This is BBC claptrap, it is not free trade,
:48:13. > :48:19.it is trade that is governed by a series of rules that are created by
:48:20. > :48:27.a single legal authority. To prevent protectionism. And protectionism has
:48:28. > :48:30.massively decreased in the last 30 years, the tariffs are well down and
:48:31. > :48:41.we should be able to trade freely with that area. What I object to is
:48:42. > :48:43.the loss of control. This is an opportunity, a once-in-a-lifetime
:48:44. > :48:50.opportunity, for the British people to take back control. I just want to
:48:51. > :48:55.explain the single market. You have explained it three or four times
:48:56. > :49:03.now. Just tell me, are we going to be in it or not in it, and if we are
:49:04. > :49:13.not in it are going to negotiate a similar deal? We will negotiate a
:49:14. > :49:17.deal that gives us access... If you look at free movement, it is very
:49:18. > :49:22.interesting how that has changed over the years. When I went to live
:49:23. > :49:27.on the continent, you had to go to the local town hall and present your
:49:28. > :49:34.papers and show what employment you propose to do, you had to register
:49:35. > :49:42.and all that kind of thing. Since Maastricht, since that treaty, since
:49:43. > :49:47.Lisbon, there has been a changing concept. What we now have is
:49:48. > :49:53.European citizenship, and the idea is we have created a single country.
:49:54. > :50:00.That is what we are being told. I think most people in this country
:50:01. > :50:03.don't believe that they share nationhood, that they are part of a
:50:04. > :50:10.single country called Europe and it seems entirely reasonable to me that
:50:11. > :50:15.you could have visa free travel for instance, as we have with the United
:50:16. > :50:19.States, but still require people to show they have capable employment or
:50:20. > :50:26.prevent people simply claiming benefits. Enough of that. You are
:50:27. > :50:30.the Mayor of London and you are responsible for the city, among
:50:31. > :50:35.other things. Have you ever had conversations with leading bankers
:50:36. > :50:42.who said if we leave the EU we will move our headquarters to the
:50:43. > :50:47.continent? No. Because that is what Goldman Sachs are saying, they are
:50:48. > :50:49.saying we have no choice but to move to continental headquarters, and
:50:50. > :50:55.bank after bank is saying the same thing. I don't believe that to be
:50:56. > :51:01.true. We have heard the same sorts of threats time and time again.
:51:02. > :51:04.London has such a massive concentration of skills and talent
:51:05. > :51:11.here in this city that I don't believe... Talk to serious bankers,
:51:12. > :51:19.they don't think... Michael Sherwood, CEO for Goldman Sachs,
:51:20. > :51:24.said banks will not disappear from London overnight but they will over
:51:25. > :51:30.time if Britain vote no. It would begin with a decline in investment
:51:31. > :51:37.and hiring. This is their business, they know what they are talking
:51:38. > :51:43.about. What I would say is that these are the same people who said
:51:44. > :51:49.that if we didn't join the euro there would be all sorts of economic
:51:50. > :51:54.disasters. They never happened. You remember Peter Mandelson, the banks,
:51:55. > :51:58.they were all saying that we had to join the euro or the British economy
:51:59. > :52:04.would be overwhelmed, we would be isolated, they were wrong then and
:52:05. > :52:09.they are wrong now. There are people on the other side now, there are
:52:10. > :52:14.people on both sides, there are people who think, as I do, there is
:52:15. > :52:19.a great and glorious future for this country. What we are being asked is
:52:20. > :52:26.to basically take a very pessimistic view of Britain and of our chances.
:52:27. > :52:31.You could say it is pessimistic to think we couldn't stay inside the EU
:52:32. > :52:36.and make it better. I think the proof of that is in the recent
:52:37. > :52:40.reform process. We were promised fundamental reform, we were told we
:52:41. > :52:45.would get wholesale changes. Anybody looking at the agreement we have now
:52:46. > :52:57.would be in no doubt this is not fundamental reform. The next item on
:52:58. > :53:01.the agenda is the creation, the turning, the further evolution of
:53:02. > :53:05.the single market, what was the common market, into this super state
:53:06. > :53:12.into which we would inevitably be dragged. You knew what the Prime
:53:13. > :53:16.Minister was going for from the time of the Bloomberg speech, he has been
:53:17. > :53:21.candid about what he was trying to do, so you knew at that point it
:53:22. > :53:25.wasn't the fundamental reform you wanted and you kept quiet. He
:53:26. > :53:29.briefed you again and again, you were agonising, going through this
:53:30. > :53:34.process. He rolled out the red carpet for you, and then when you
:53:35. > :53:37.finally decided you didn't even speak to him face-to-face, you sent
:53:38. > :53:43.him a text message. Can you understand why he is livid with you?
:53:44. > :53:47.I wasn't at the meeting where the deal was discussed because I'm not
:53:48. > :53:51.in the Cabinet, but what is certainly the case is that in the
:53:52. > :53:55.days leading up to that summit and indeed while the summit was going
:53:56. > :53:59.on, there was a huge effort going on which I was involved in to try to
:54:00. > :54:04.make sense of the so-called sovereignty clauses. A huge
:54:05. > :54:11.intellectual effort went into creating this language by which we
:54:12. > :54:17.could somehow ensure that our Supreme Court, our House of Commons,
:54:18. > :54:22.could overturn judgments of the European Court of justice if we
:54:23. > :54:29.felt, if Britain felt that they were in some way capricious or if they
:54:30. > :54:34.were going beyond... Exceeding their powers, exactly. Finally we had some
:54:35. > :54:39.language that seemed to work. I was very pleased with it. Hang on, we
:54:40. > :54:47.went back to the Government lawyers and the Government lawyers blew up
:54:48. > :54:52.and they said this basically avoids our obligations under the 1972
:54:53. > :55:01.European communities act, it doesn't work. That is the reality. You
:55:02. > :55:06.cannot express the sovereignty of Parliament and accept the 1972
:55:07. > :55:10.European communities act. There is no way of doing both at the same
:55:11. > :55:19.time. This was the moment when you decided which way you are going to
:55:20. > :55:28.go, was it? We were told... Specific question. Yes. We were told there
:55:29. > :55:33.would be fundamental reform, and reform is not achievable so we now
:55:34. > :55:36.have a glorious opportunity. To get back to this thing about what is the
:55:37. > :55:41.single market, the key thing about the single market is that it has
:55:42. > :55:46.this single judicial system, and interestingly, if you look at the
:55:47. > :55:54.other free trade groupings around the world, none of them are trying
:55:55. > :55:59.to create this single country, this single political unit. None of them
:56:00. > :56:03.have a single currency. The Prime Minister clearly thinks you are
:56:04. > :56:08.doing this out of personal ambition because you want to take him out.
:56:09. > :56:11.The longer we spend talking about this political stuff, the less time
:56:12. > :56:17.people have to focus on the real issues. You said you have no
:56:18. > :56:23.political ambitions left the other day, I find that hard to believe.
:56:24. > :56:28.The greasy ball is bouncing towards you, are you really saying no? I
:56:29. > :56:33.have to say, with the possible exception of Dan Hannan, I don't
:56:34. > :56:38.believe there is anybody in British media or British politics who has
:56:39. > :56:42.written more or said more over the last 30 years of the democratic
:56:43. > :56:46.deficiencies of the European Union. For the last few years I have said
:56:47. > :56:50.clearly that if we didn't get reform we should be prepared to walk away.
:56:51. > :56:58.I think we now have a golden opportunity to shrug off a
:56:59. > :57:08.regulatory legislative burden. As Michael Gove rightly says in his
:57:09. > :57:18.interview this morning, look at the consequences... You know the Prime
:57:19. > :57:22.Minister cannot carry on if he loses this, don't you? You cannot look me
:57:23. > :57:27.in the eye and say David Cameron will carry on as Prime Minister...
:57:28. > :57:31.To the best of my knowledge there is not a single European leader in the
:57:32. > :57:37.last 20 years who has had to step down as a result of a referendum
:57:38. > :57:42.whether on Europe or not. You are just trying to personalise it to
:57:43. > :57:49.make it more interesting. I want to talk about the real choice. And you
:57:50. > :57:50.have had plenty of time so to do. Boris Johnson, thank you very much
:57:51. > :57:52.indeed. That's all we have
:57:53. > :57:54.time for this morning. Andrew Neil will be here in an hour
:57:55. > :57:58.with the Sunday Politics I'll be back at the same time next
:57:59. > :58:03.week with - we hope - the Chancellor on the eve
:58:04. > :58:06.of the Budget, plus the But for now, we leave
:58:07. > :58:09.you with Benjamin Grosvenor They're about to embark on a UK
:58:10. > :58:14.tour, and they're going to play