:00:07. > :00:08.Through most of this campaign on our European
:00:09. > :00:10.future, the Remain camp led by the Prime Minister have
:00:11. > :00:12.dominated the headlines, with blood-curdling warnings
:00:13. > :00:15.about the economic danger of leaving.
:00:16. > :00:17.But this week, the Leave campaign has put itself
:00:18. > :00:38.The issue that's cutting through is immigration.
:00:39. > :00:40.The EU immigration story really started back in 2004
:00:41. > :00:46.when a surge of migrants arrived here from Eastern Europe.
:00:47. > :00:54.The man in charge then, who is today a passionate advocate of Remain,
:00:55. > :01:00.is Tony Blair the former Prime Minister.
:01:01. > :01:03.And as gloves come off over immigration, one of the most vocal
:01:04. > :01:05.opponents of EU membership and a likely contender in any Tory
:01:06. > :01:07.leadership campaign, former Defence Secretary Liam Fox joins me.
:01:08. > :01:10.Also here, reviewing our papers, a man who knows all about
:01:11. > :01:13.the turmoil the euro has caused but nevertheless wants us
:01:14. > :01:23.to stay inside the EU, Greece's former
:01:24. > :01:27.Speaking of Greece, have we in this country too often treated it
:01:28. > :01:30.as a sun-soaked holiday destination and not thought enough about
:01:31. > :01:34.That's the theme of a new play starring Elizabeth McGovern
:01:35. > :01:39.I caught up with a dressed down Lady Grantham at
:01:40. > :01:46.And there's music from the Nashville singer who created what might have
:01:47. > :02:02.been John Peel's favourite album ever, Laura Cantrell.
:02:03. > :02:06.And alongside Yanis Varoufakis, one of Fleet Street's
:02:07. > :02:08.leading Eurosceptic voices, The Daily Mail's Amanda Platell.
:02:09. > :02:09.But first the news from Christian Fraser.
:02:10. > :02:14.Two senior Conservatives have publicly challenged David Cameron
:02:15. > :02:18.to accept the failure of his manifesto pledge
:02:19. > :02:21.The Prime Minister promised to reduce net migration
:02:22. > :02:25.The current figure is more than three times that amount.
:02:26. > :02:27.Boris Johnson and the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove,
:02:28. > :02:30.who both support the Vote Leave campaign, have written an open
:02:31. > :02:34.letter, saying the promise to slash net immigration to the "tens
:02:35. > :02:36.of thousands" is not achievable as long as the UK
:02:37. > :02:40.They say the failure to keep this promise is corrosive
:02:41. > :02:45.Downing Street described the move as "a transparent attempt
:02:46. > :02:48.to distract from the fact that most economists think that leaving
:02:49. > :02:50.the single market would be disastrous for jobs,
:02:51. > :02:56.Iraqi government forces have made gains in their offensive to drive
:02:57. > :02:59.so-called Islamic State militants from Fallujah.
:03:00. > :03:02.Large numbers of troops have been deployed near the city and have
:03:03. > :03:04.taken the town of Karma, which was the front
:03:05. > :03:11.It comes just days after Washington said an Islamic State
:03:12. > :03:13.commander was killed, along with dozens of militants,
:03:14. > :03:18.A man has been killed in Poland and a child is on life support
:03:19. > :03:22.in a French hospital after a series of lightning strikes across Europe.
:03:23. > :03:24.The child was struck during a birthday party
:03:25. > :03:29.According to local authorities, 11 people, including eight children,
:03:30. > :03:34.were injured while trying to seek shelter under a tree.
:03:35. > :03:36.The 100th anniversary of the Battle of Verdun,
:03:37. > :03:38.the longest of the First World War, will be commemorated
:03:39. > :03:42.As many as 800,000 soldiers are believed to have been killed
:03:43. > :03:45.or wounded during the 1916 battle, which became known
:03:46. > :03:49.The French President, Francois Hollande,
:03:50. > :03:54.Angela Merkel, are expected to call for European unity when they lay
:03:55. > :04:13.Now the front pages, you would expect lots of politics and you have
:04:14. > :04:22.got them. David Cameron, to which to care about immigration, says Priti
:04:23. > :04:31.Patel. We will talk about that later. I cannot show you the front
:04:32. > :04:41.page of the Sun, but here is page two, all about the referendum. It is
:04:42. > :04:46.about the shoot out after the poll. This is a pretty tough letter
:04:47. > :04:54.because it suggests he undermined deliberately public trust by the
:04:55. > :05:01.tens of thousands. On the Daily Mail,, this one takes a slightly
:05:02. > :05:05.different view. The Observer, a massive boost for the Prime Minister
:05:06. > :05:11.is over 600 economists reject or accept. That is the story that
:05:12. > :05:21.Number Ten say the other stories are there to divert us away from. Yanis
:05:22. > :05:30.Varoufakis and Amanda Platell, it is great to have you here. It signifies
:05:31. > :05:37.a retreat from the Tories who are for the Leave campaign away from
:05:38. > :05:41.what I consider to be their strong issue, sovereignty. They have
:05:42. > :05:46.retreated to the Ukip agenda of scaremongering about migration. This
:05:47. > :05:50.is very interesting because the two campaigns were against each other.
:05:51. > :05:59.The Ukip campaign and the Tory campaign. What they have found...
:06:00. > :06:02.This campaign has been running for some weeks now, the Leave campaign
:06:03. > :06:08.have lost the argument on the economy so now they are thinking,
:06:09. > :06:23.they had regrouped last week, we have one month to go, what can we
:06:24. > :06:33.win on? Immigration. Their weakest argument from where I am standing is
:06:34. > :06:38.migration. The fact they are treating simply shows panic and a
:06:39. > :06:44.descent to an abyss from which I do not believe they can recover. It is
:06:45. > :06:53.what a lot of people in this country really care about in terms of stress
:06:54. > :06:57.on the NHS. Of course these are genuine concerns, but what I am
:06:58. > :07:02.reading today in the paper is grabbing. To be clear, there was a
:07:03. > :07:09.meeting earlier this week and this is a change of tack. Absolutely,
:07:10. > :07:18.they realised they lost the argument on the economy. The euro is in the
:07:19. > :07:22.perilous state, but they didn't win it, time is running out, so you go
:07:23. > :07:29.back to what your strongest points are. In the Sun you have Michael
:07:30. > :07:35.Gove having slagged off David Cameron in the Remain. He said the
:07:36. > :07:41.five key facts David Cameron cannot answer, and it is immigration,
:07:42. > :07:46.immigration, immigration... All of them are immigration. The force of
:07:47. > :07:49.this letter is that it is true in that the tens of thousands promise
:07:50. > :08:00.could not possibly be technically met ever so for the Prime
:08:01. > :08:06.Minister... To go to the Prime Minister and say you have made a big
:08:07. > :08:12.mistake... The Tories cannot say they didn't support this claim, they
:08:13. > :08:17.supported it at the last election. Your point is an excellent one. The
:08:18. > :08:21.worst enemy of the Remain campaign has been David Cameron, promises
:08:22. > :08:27.that he has delivered that cannot be fulfilled. The forge that he came
:08:28. > :08:32.back from Brussels, presenting it as a reformed, I am a supporter of
:08:33. > :08:40.Remain but I wish David Cameron was not campaigning on my side. Very
:08:41. > :08:47.good. Where are we going next? The Economist is next. A very brief
:08:48. > :08:51.comment against my own lot. It was once said that if you laid every
:08:52. > :08:56.economist in the world end to end, they still wouldn't reach a
:08:57. > :09:01.conclusion. Indeed! But there was something worse to say about us. The
:09:02. > :09:10.Royal economic Society, of which I am a member, these are the very same
:09:11. > :09:15.economists to whom the Queen addressed a letter with a
:09:16. > :09:18.devastating question, why didn't you see it coming? They spent three
:09:19. > :09:24.months concocting the longest apology in the history of social
:09:25. > :09:33.science. To have those same economists with wonderful predictive
:09:34. > :09:39.powers... We don't trust you that much, with all due respect. You
:09:40. > :09:49.shouldn't, we have never predicted anything! That is also true. There
:09:50. > :09:54.is so much mud slinging, the knives are out of the back pockets, and you
:09:55. > :10:10.see John Major saying he is savaging boorish Brexit. He is calling them
:10:11. > :10:14.liars. What happens at the end of all of this? Do you take the view
:10:15. > :10:18.that whatever happens in the vote there will be a leadership challenge
:10:19. > :10:24.quite quickly? If I were to bet on it, yes, cause there is such mutiny
:10:25. > :10:28.in the way the Government have used their resources to create this fear
:10:29. > :10:33.campaign at the start of the election, and these people used to
:10:34. > :10:39.be friends. Michael Gove and David Cameron used to be great friends,
:10:40. > :10:43.you cannot go back from that. Also I have met up for drinks, I have to
:10:44. > :10:48.say, with a number of these people who claim they are the ones who want
:10:49. > :10:55.David Cameron out, who claimed they already have the signatures they
:10:56. > :11:01.need. On John Major's point, if I may add, John Major is completely
:11:02. > :11:08.right. The Treasury's figures are dodgy, not worth the paper they are
:11:09. > :11:12.written on, but where John Major... He is highlighting the fact the
:11:13. > :11:16.Leave campaign is also based on dodgy statistics. Let's face it,
:11:17. > :11:20.this is a one-off event, it has never happened in the history of the
:11:21. > :11:29.world for a country like Britain to leave the union like the European
:11:30. > :11:34.Union. To pin down what this will mean for mortgages, the value of the
:11:35. > :11:37.pound and so on, it is not based on scientific facts. The discussion
:11:38. > :11:41.should be about sovereignty, about the effect of the Brexit on Europe,
:11:42. > :11:46.on the British people, this is the discussion we should be having. I
:11:47. > :11:55.think I have just found an economist I trust. I am going to stick however
:11:56. > :12:01.with the Tory infighting story because my colleague John Pienaar
:12:02. > :12:05.had an interesting chat with a Tory backbencher who said these are the
:12:06. > :12:08.numbers, we are going to have this challenge, and that connects to
:12:09. > :12:17.Priti Patel who was also going for the jugular. She was one of David
:12:18. > :12:20.Cameron's proteges, she is going for broke now, distancing herself from
:12:21. > :12:27.the leadership of the Tory party because these people suspect they
:12:28. > :12:38.have a good chance of getting David Cameron up pretty quickly. It is a
:12:39. > :12:45.sad fact that monumental referendum boils down to a Tory infighting
:12:46. > :12:48.tussle about who will replace David Cameron. The Prime Minister has
:12:49. > :12:53.already declared he doesn't want to be Prime Minister for much longer. A
:12:54. > :13:04.lot of these campaigns are not Tory at all, the Labour Leave campaign,
:13:05. > :13:08.the Remain campaign and so on. None of the big hitters are at the heart
:13:09. > :13:15.of the opposition are actually putting their heads up. Yesterday at
:13:16. > :13:21.UCL we had more than 1000 people and we try to do exactly that, to bring
:13:22. > :13:28.the radical case for participating in the referendum from our Remain...
:13:29. > :13:33.To actually animate it and have something to say that goes beyond
:13:34. > :13:36.tactics. There are people on the left in this country arguing Brexit
:13:37. > :13:44.should be supported because it will split the Tory party. This kind of
:13:45. > :13:48.mindset, it is very petty, just as petty as the Tory side. This is a
:13:49. > :13:53.significant juncture in the history of Europe and we should be worried
:13:54. > :13:57.about its effect on the generations to come.
:13:58. > :14:02.We are showing the Tony Blair interview in a little bit of time.
:14:03. > :14:11.Blair is all over the papers as well of course, making his case. His main
:14:12. > :14:14.argument seems to be if you have any concerns don't believe because there
:14:15. > :14:21.is a devil that you know and a devil that you don't know. Beforehand, I
:14:22. > :14:27.pleaded that David Cameron should not be trying to help the Remain
:14:28. > :14:31.campaign. If that is so, imagine how much more it is pertinent in the
:14:32. > :14:38.case of Tony Blair. Having Tony Blair on your side in any campaign
:14:39. > :14:44.is a glass of poison. And you have picked up a story in the Sunday
:14:45. > :14:50.Telegraph about the Chilcot inquiry. Yes, I am surprised by this issue,
:14:51. > :14:57.whether he should be tried and imprisoned or or not. I think the
:14:58. > :15:01.best outcome... From the point of view of history and humanity would
:15:02. > :15:07.be for Tony Blair to be forgotten and treated with the contempt it
:15:08. > :15:11.deserves. We have failed to forget him on this programme yet, I take
:15:12. > :15:18.your point. Any last stories before we crashed out of the paper review?
:15:19. > :15:25.There was this wonderful thing on Britain's Got Talent, a guy who used
:15:26. > :15:30.to do magic tricks on the guy who used to do magic tricks, Burma
:15:31. > :15:35.railway. It was absolutely fantastic, wonderful English heroic
:15:36. > :15:40.patriotic music and there was this 96-year-old former card trick
:15:41. > :15:51.magician. It was great TV. Tonight we are both going to be watching Top
:15:52. > :15:55.Gear. We are both petrol heads. I'm looking to see how the BBC can
:15:56. > :16:00.recreate the chemistry of the previous lot.
:16:01. > :16:04.Now the weather, and I'm indebted to The Times for reminding me how
:16:05. > :16:08.the American poet James Lowell described May - not just
:16:09. > :16:11.a capricious month, "a pious fraud, a ghastly parody of real Spring".
:16:12. > :16:15.So, for a weather forecast, delivered entirely in verse,
:16:16. > :16:31.Wishful thinking! I have something much more corny. Sunshine, sunshine
:16:32. > :16:34.in the sky, see-through clouds to tickle your eye. And the sunshine
:16:35. > :16:38.will be tickling the eyes through the course of this afternoon. For
:16:39. > :16:42.most other cities looking fine out there. It was quite grey over
:16:43. > :16:47.eastern areas and on the North Sea coast, quite gloomy this morning
:16:48. > :16:50.first thing, but now the sunshine is out and it promises to be a
:16:51. > :16:53.beautiful and sunny Sunday. There are some showers in the forecast,
:16:54. > :17:15.across northern and central parts of Scotland,
:17:16. > :17:18.possibly even a thunderstorm. Showers across the hills in Wales
:17:19. > :17:20.but temperatures widely in the 20s today. Cooler on the North Sea
:17:21. > :17:23.coast. On bank holiday Monday, many of us have the day off with sunshine
:17:24. > :17:26.around in western and central areas of the UK. We have been forecasting
:17:27. > :17:28.Miss for the last few days, and we are expecting rain fall into East
:17:29. > :17:31.Anglia, London and into Brighton later in the afternoon. Once again,
:17:32. > :17:33.the vast majority of the UK should enjoy a fine bank holiday Monday
:17:34. > :17:35.with lots of sunshine. Tuesday, back to work, and we are expecting some
:17:36. > :17:38.rain but some areas will remain sunny in the west. Back to you. Rain
:17:39. > :17:43.on Monday, there we go. Immigration became the main
:17:44. > :17:45.theme of the Vote Leave Perhaps not surprising,
:17:46. > :17:48.with the release of official figures showing net migration to the UK
:17:49. > :17:51.at 330,000 last year. There's no escaping that statistic,
:17:52. > :17:53.and it stands in contrast to David Cameron's target
:17:54. > :17:55.of reducing immigration Now the Leave campaign have written
:17:56. > :17:59.to the Prime Minister urging him to accept that this pledge has not
:18:00. > :18:02.been met and is "corrosive One of the leading figures
:18:03. > :18:05.on the Leave side, the Conservative former
:18:06. > :18:15.Defence Secretary Liam Fox, is here. That letter that your side has sent
:18:16. > :18:20.to the Prime Minister is a statement of fact, isn't it? No government
:18:21. > :18:24.inside the EU can guarantee that immigration will fall to tens of
:18:25. > :18:28.thousands. No Conservative MP who was elected at the last election can
:18:29. > :18:32.fulfil our pledge to the British people, including me, if we stay
:18:33. > :18:35.within the European Union. One of the points that people have failed
:18:36. > :18:39.to grasp is that I am quite sure that the Prime Minister wanted to
:18:40. > :18:43.get restrictions on free movement to meet that target, but it wasn't on
:18:44. > :18:51.offer. There is no reform EU and it is a fantasy. Was this ignorance or
:18:52. > :18:54.deceit? The Prime Minister wanted to get that change and we all wanted it
:18:55. > :19:00.but now it is totally clear that if we stay in the EU, with free
:19:01. > :19:04.movement, and we saw 184,000 net EU migrants coming to the UK last year,
:19:05. > :19:08.that will not be a pledge that we can meet. It is impossible when you
:19:09. > :19:13.are planning public services to be able to deal with those numbers and
:19:14. > :19:15.have school places predicted, NHS, housing, all huge issues for real
:19:16. > :19:32.people. Downing Street said today it was a distraction but
:19:33. > :19:34.it is not a distraction. It is a huge issue for many people facing
:19:35. > :19:37.implications of immigration in their real lives. Your party went in to
:19:38. > :19:40.the election on a manifesto that was not true. No, it was entirely
:19:41. > :19:44.possible to get that, but only if we admitted the renegotiation was not
:19:45. > :19:46.going to achieve what we wanted because our European partners would
:19:47. > :19:51.not change course and they will not change course on anything. They are
:19:52. > :19:55.progressing the European army plans and everything suggests ever closer
:19:56. > :19:58.union is still on the cards, so our choice as a country is between
:19:59. > :20:03.getting control and taking our destiny into our own hands, or ever
:20:04. > :20:07.closer union, ending up in what is likely to be much closer to a single
:20:08. > :20:13.European state. That is not the future that I want for my country.
:20:14. > :20:17.Brochures stuff in the papers today. Blue on blue. Do you think the Prime
:20:18. > :20:20.Minister should carry on after the referendum? Do you think you should
:20:21. > :20:25.lead any negotiations with the rest of the EU if we vote to leave? If we
:20:26. > :20:28.vote to leave, my personal view is the best thing would be for the
:20:29. > :20:32.Prime Minister to stay on. We will have to have a government position
:20:33. > :20:37.before we enter into negotiations under article 50. We need a period
:20:38. > :20:43.of stability. Whatever our views have been touring the referendum, we
:20:44. > :20:45.need to put to bed those personal views and understand that stability
:20:46. > :20:49.for the country is most important. 50 of your colleagues have put their
:20:50. > :20:54.names down for a challenge after this vote. They may or may not have.
:20:55. > :20:58.I have heard these stories on and off for 24 years. Whether it is true
:20:59. > :21:02.or not I don't know, but it would not be wise in my view. If we decide
:21:03. > :21:05.to leave, and there will be a period of uncertainty about the
:21:06. > :21:12.government's negotiating position, we don't want to add to that. So you
:21:13. > :21:16.would say, just stop it? My view is that we should stick to the issues.
:21:17. > :21:20.There are big issues at stake for this country in the referendum so
:21:21. > :21:23.don't turn it into an internal Conservative Party debating society.
:21:24. > :21:27.I want to leave the European Union because I one control of our own
:21:28. > :21:31.lawmaking, sovereignty is key for me, and I want control of our own
:21:32. > :21:34.money that we are handing over to Brussels. And I want control of our
:21:35. > :21:45.own borders which is much more important to me
:21:46. > :21:49.than what happens inside the Conservative Party. So forget this
:21:50. > :21:51.stuff about coups and what happens to David Cameron and concentrate on
:21:52. > :21:53.the issues? Concentrate on the very big issues affecting Britain and our
:21:54. > :21:55.future. People have to ask themselves, if you are not in the
:21:56. > :21:58.European Union already, would you choose to join it? If you would not
:21:59. > :22:01.choose to join, don't choose to stay because you are joining for the next
:22:02. > :22:06.generation. Can I give two cheers for the European migrants who come
:22:07. > :22:10.in here? Overwhelmingly hard-working people who keep up our public
:22:11. > :22:14.services, you see them in hospitals and in the private sector in hotels
:22:15. > :22:18.and restaurants and in the agriculture sector. Up and down the
:22:19. > :22:22.country, very often doing jobs that British people no longer want to do
:22:23. > :22:25.for that money. I don't have a problem with migration. I have a
:22:26. > :22:29.problem with uncontrolled migration. I would like to have overall control
:22:30. > :22:33.of migration on a points system like the Australians but we can't have
:22:34. > :22:44.that because we are committed to total free movement.
:22:45. > :22:48.It is that uncontrolled element, the fact we cannot control the impact on
:22:49. > :22:50.public services, which is a very real problem. Not something that
:22:51. > :22:52.Goldman Sachs and those funding the Remain campaign have got to worry
:22:53. > :22:54.about because they probably don't use them. Ordinarily hard-working
:22:55. > :22:58.people in this country face problems as a result of this huge increase in
:22:59. > :23:03.our population, driving our housing policy, the NHS, demand the school
:23:04. > :23:08.places. I don't have a problem with migration, I have a problem with
:23:09. > :23:16.uncontrolled migration. Another is too high? I want to control that
:23:17. > :23:23.number. After Brexit, if that happens, we would be taking migrants
:23:24. > :23:25.from the EU. I want a decent human immigration policy that determines
:23:26. > :23:30.what we need in this country and that matches with the supply of
:23:31. > :23:34.labour that comes from overseas. Not just the EU, but other countries,
:23:35. > :23:38.Canada and Australia, who are being discriminated against because of the
:23:39. > :23:43.EU migrants and policy. At that point, could we get down to tens of
:23:44. > :23:47.thousands? I think it is possible to do it. You have to take tough
:23:48. > :23:51.decisions but we have an economy that is doing very well. We are
:23:52. > :23:56.acting as a magnet for migration. When the liberal wage comes in, if
:23:57. > :23:59.we still have open borders in terms of migration, that will be a much
:24:00. > :24:03.bigger number, given the continuing failure of the eurozone and what it
:24:04. > :24:09.is doing to young people's futures across the continent. Nonetheless,
:24:10. > :24:13.we have needed migration to this country. Your colleague Sarah
:24:14. > :24:19.Williston, on your side in this debate, she has said that if you
:24:20. > :24:24.meet a European migrant in the NHS, they are more likely to be healing
:24:25. > :24:29.you than to be a patient. I don't have a problem with migration, I
:24:30. > :24:32.have a problem with uncontrolled migration and the pressure it puts
:24:33. > :24:36.on public services. For every 10% increase in the life of the
:24:37. > :24:40.population, that is 80% reduction in wages. It is very hard to see how
:24:41. > :24:45.you get a high wage economy and at the same time have open borders and
:24:46. > :24:48.uncontrolled migration. Priti Patel has said today that the Prime
:24:49. > :24:52.Minister is too rich to get this message. He doesn't understand what
:24:53. > :24:57.life is like for too many people in this country. I don't agree with
:24:58. > :24:59.that. The Prime Minister entirely understands that. He has committed
:25:00. > :25:06.us to membership of the European Union on terms that I simply cannot
:25:07. > :25:11.access. He would have liked to have a restriction on the numbers coming
:25:12. > :25:14.into Britain but our European partners will not wear it. The idea
:25:15. > :25:18.that we can influence them in changing the core elements of ever
:25:19. > :25:22.closer union, that is simply a fantasy. I have a problem with ever
:25:23. > :25:26.closer union because the logical end point is union and that is not what
:25:27. > :25:30.I want for this country. You are quite worried about the Gibraltar
:25:31. > :25:34.situation at the moment as well. The one thing that you never do in any
:25:35. > :25:39.campaign is to play with security and the sovereignty of the people of
:25:40. > :25:43.Gibraltar has always been guaranteed by the United Kingdom. To pretend in
:25:44. > :25:47.any way shape or form that that policy would change if we were in or
:25:48. > :25:55.outside the European Union is inexcusable. Who has done that?
:25:56. > :26:02.Remain campaign suggested that Gibraltans of 40 might be at stake
:26:03. > :26:06.and that is inexcusable. -- Gibraltar sovereignty. The Prime
:26:07. > :26:09.Minister needs to say that the sovereignty of Gibraltar is a
:26:10. > :26:12.question we would not tolerate inside or outside the European Union
:26:13. > :26:17.and that sovereignty is guaranteed by the UK. And you think we need
:26:18. > :26:20.that statement? We need that clarity. The slightest inference
:26:21. > :26:24.that we might hand over the sovereignty of Gibraltar to Spain if
:26:25. > :26:27.we are not inside the European Union is completely unacceptable. There
:26:28. > :26:32.are limits to what you can and cannot say in any campaign and that
:26:33. > :26:37.goes way beyond acceptable limits. This requires personal intervention
:26:38. > :26:40.by the Prime Minister to get that clarity? I think he is the only
:26:41. > :26:44.person with authority to make the government's position clear and
:26:45. > :26:49.unequivocal. Gibraltar is protected by the UK and will continue to be
:26:50. > :26:53.protected. We need a clear statement. Liam Fox, there is much
:26:54. > :26:56.more to talk about and luckily you have agreed to join us on the sofa
:26:57. > :26:57.of shame at the end of the programme but thank you very much indeed for
:26:58. > :27:01.now. As chatelaine of Downton,
:27:02. > :27:03.Elizabeth McGovern was one of the best known faces on our TV
:27:04. > :27:06.screens for six years. Now, in a new production
:27:07. > :27:08.at the National Theatre, she plays a very different American
:27:09. > :27:11.wife from Lady Grantham. Sunset At The Villa Thalia
:27:12. > :27:13.is a drama set in Greece during the colonels' coup
:27:14. > :27:16.of the '60s and the political It's a play, I almost guarantee you,
:27:17. > :27:20.you're going to hear a lot I caught up with Elizabeth
:27:21. > :27:23.between rehearsals at the National and we began by discussing
:27:24. > :27:25.the Downton phenomenon. The more adaptable we are, the more
:27:26. > :27:32.chance we have of getting through. Edith has risen from
:27:33. > :27:38.the cinders in the hearth to be kissed by her very own
:27:39. > :27:40.Prince Charming. What more
:27:41. > :27:42.can we ask? A long and happy life together just
:27:43. > :27:45.we two to watch the children All drama comes from throwing people
:27:46. > :27:55.into an enclosed space and then watching the friction that ensues
:27:56. > :27:58.so in that respect Downton is very much like any other great TV
:27:59. > :28:01.show or piece of theatre. You sound like you
:28:02. > :28:03.are a genuine fan. There are other eminent
:28:04. > :28:05.members of the cast Well, I am of the school of thought
:28:06. > :28:16.that I have only to be grateful for the kind of impact
:28:17. > :28:21.that Downton Abbey had. It is very rare that someone works
:28:22. > :28:23.on anything that takes It is so good of you to stay,
:28:24. > :28:27.Mama. It has made you a big,
:28:28. > :28:37.big star both in this country To me the most interesting thing
:28:38. > :28:40.about your career You were big, big in Hollywood,
:28:41. > :28:45.with all the greats in Hollywood, you could have gone right to the top
:28:46. > :28:47.and you walked away. I don't think I perceived the course
:28:48. > :28:58.of my career as consciously walking away from anything as much
:28:59. > :29:04.as being drawn by interesting work that I couldn't resist that led me
:29:05. > :29:07.to other places and that continues It has made me very happy
:29:08. > :29:18.and always very passionate about what I am doing but it may
:29:19. > :29:22.lead back to Hollywood one day. Because Hollywood is this great
:29:23. > :29:26.sticky magnet of money and glamour and fame and you did
:29:27. > :29:28.move away from it. I think you talked about the cult
:29:29. > :29:31.of personality that you didn't Yes, that was not the kind of work
:29:32. > :29:36.I was ever drawn to doing. You are now a Chiswick High Street
:29:37. > :29:39.girl? Elizabeth, this is a play set
:29:40. > :29:50.in Greece in the 1960s and '70s. Just give us a little sense
:29:51. > :29:53.of the underlying theme. Two couples meet on holiday
:29:54. > :29:55.on a Greek island. One British, one American,
:29:56. > :29:59.and they encounter of course the local population,
:30:00. > :30:01.so it is an exploration It is an exploration of the British
:30:02. > :30:10.and the American imperialistic way of taking advantage
:30:11. > :30:15.of the countries that they visit, unwittingly and with
:30:16. > :30:17.the best intentions. It is about many, many things
:30:18. > :30:20.which makes it a very I suppose it is something that
:30:21. > :30:25.all of us have done, which is go somewhere beautiful
:30:26. > :30:28.and treat it like a backdrop, not like a real place,
:30:29. > :30:30.not being interested enough in the people that have lived
:30:31. > :30:32.there for generations. And even the extension
:30:33. > :30:36.of that is somehow to want to own it, to want to buy,
:30:37. > :30:42.to want to take it home with you. A lot of the play touches
:30:43. > :30:50.on the American tendency to infiltrate these governments
:30:51. > :30:53.with the excuse of the Soviet Union as the enemy and to try
:30:54. > :30:58.to control their politics. So this is back in the day
:30:59. > :31:02.of the colonels' coup The American guy clearly works
:31:03. > :31:07.for the CIA and interestingly She's an actress and he's a writer
:31:08. > :31:13.and there's a lot of Anglo-American The British are rather
:31:14. > :31:18.complacent about how they are better people
:31:19. > :31:20.than the Americans. The Americans do all these terrible
:31:21. > :31:23.things in Chile and so forth but the British sit back and enjoy
:31:24. > :31:27.the sun and patronise the locals. That is one of the things
:31:28. > :31:31.about the play that I am There are these two couples that
:31:32. > :31:39.have an initial love affair - the artist and intellectual,
:31:40. > :31:42.and the other couple are the people that do the hard knocks
:31:43. > :31:44.of protecting the world that They say to these artists
:31:45. > :31:48.and intellectuals, "Listen, I am creating a world
:31:49. > :31:50.by being in the CIA, by protecting your right to freedom
:31:51. > :31:53.of speech and all the things we take for granted,
:31:54. > :31:56.and then you turn around and criticise me for what I am doing
:31:57. > :32:00.but I am actually creating the life This is also about the close
:32:01. > :32:05.connection between the theatre It is a point the American character
:32:06. > :32:11.makes very unequivocably, how theatre and democracy emerged
:32:12. > :32:14.in Greece at the same time and shares the same kind of space
:32:15. > :32:17.with storytelling and getting ourselves into other
:32:18. > :32:18.people's heads. It is the democracy that the CIA
:32:19. > :32:26.protects that creates the world of the theatre and the two were born
:32:27. > :32:29.at exactly the same time, Elizabeth, it has been
:32:30. > :32:32.a privilege talking to you. Tony Blair wanted us
:32:33. > :32:38.to join the euro. He's always been one of the most
:32:39. > :32:41.outspoken defenders of Brussels in this country, but these days
:32:42. > :32:43.he is followed everywhere by the shadow of the Iraq
:32:44. > :32:46.war and seems to have fallen out permanently
:32:47. > :32:49.with his party's leadership. I spoke to Mr Blair a little
:32:50. > :32:52.earlier this morning, and I began by asking him whether
:32:53. > :32:54.the current level I think people's concerns
:32:55. > :33:02.about immigration are completely Indeed, this is a worldwide
:33:03. > :33:12.phenomenon so it's not the rest of Europe,
:33:13. > :33:17.And I understand why people think the
:33:18. > :33:20.levels are too high, but the fact is that, one,
:33:21. > :33:21.the biggest problem we have is
:33:22. > :33:25.non-EU migration, and secondly, the reason why
:33:26. > :33:28.the Leave people have now
:33:29. > :33:34.really focused on immigration day after day is because they have
:33:35. > :33:39.don't think they can really dispute, is that
:33:40. > :33:42.if we did vote to leave, the
:33:43. > :33:44.economic after-shock would be severe and directly measurable in jobs and
:33:45. > :33:46.living standards and business confidence.
:33:47. > :33:47.Coming back to immigration however, those people
:33:48. > :33:50.who are worried about it may be right, and it
:33:51. > :33:51.may be that actually this
:33:52. > :33:53.country cannot absorb this level of immigration from the rest
:33:54. > :33:59.It was nearly 200,000 people from the EU last year, close
:34:00. > :34:03.I also think we have got to understand what we are
:34:04. > :34:07.Are we saying that we should leave the European
:34:08. > :34:17.Union and then put out the people who have
:34:18. > :34:21.They get to stay anyway because of the Luxembourg compromise.
:34:22. > :34:23.Right, but if you look at how the UK functions
:34:24. > :34:24.going forward, some of
:34:25. > :34:27.these people play an absolutely fundamental part in services like
:34:28. > :34:30.the National Health Service, and even if we were to stop all EU
:34:31. > :34:32.immigration, you've still got the other issues to do
:34:33. > :34:34.with immigration so I don't discount it is an issue.
:34:35. > :34:38.It's really important issue, but it's not going to go away as an
:34:39. > :34:43.issue if we leave the European Union.
:34:44. > :34:51.But it is a really important issue that, while we are inside the EU, we
:34:52. > :34:56.can do nothing about. We have uncontrolled immigration from the EU
:34:57. > :35:00.as long as we remain in the EU. You have free movement of people in the
:35:01. > :35:06.EU but it also applies to British people working in Europe. It is
:35:07. > :35:11.uncontrolled in both directions. My point is that inside the EU we have
:35:12. > :35:16.nothing we can do about big net migration. You have to accept there
:35:17. > :35:20.is nothing you can do about free movement of people, but even outside
:35:21. > :35:24.the European Union, if we want access to the single market a like
:35:25. > :35:28.Norway has had to renegotiate free movement of people sell levels of
:35:29. > :35:33.migration are higher in Norway and Switzerland. When you look at this
:35:34. > :35:38.rationally, yes immigration is a big issue, it won't be solved by leaving
:35:39. > :35:43.the European Union. In fact in some ways, as David Blunkett has been
:35:44. > :35:47.pointing out, we will lose the ability to cooperate with other
:35:48. > :35:51.countries in dealing with immigration from outside of Europe.
:35:52. > :35:56.If Turkey joins, and you are big to using us for that, people will look
:35:57. > :36:00.ahead and say this will go on and on. Is there any limit in your mind
:36:01. > :36:08.for immigration into this country from the rest of Europe? There is no
:36:09. > :36:13.possibility of Turkey joining in the near future. If Turkey ever meet the
:36:14. > :36:19.accession terms, it is a vote that we have a veto on in Britain. To
:36:20. > :36:24.raise Turkey in this context is again to demonstrate why what they
:36:25. > :36:28.want to do is raise the general fear of migration because when you look
:36:29. > :36:33.at the particular facts, their case just doesn't stack up. We are always
:36:34. > :36:39.told things won't happen and then they do. You yourself said it was in
:36:40. > :36:45.Turkey's interests to join the EU and you are a big advocate for that.
:36:46. > :36:52.As was David Cameron, so we can assume in due course they will join
:36:53. > :36:57.the EU. I always will be an advocate for us to apply to Turkey the same
:36:58. > :37:03.rules we apply to everyone else, but the reality is there is a
:37:04. > :37:07.possibility -- there is into possibility of Turkey joining in the
:37:08. > :37:13.short term. But this is a vote for very long time in the future. In the
:37:14. > :37:18.medium term, Turkey and maybe other countries will join. What I'm saying
:37:19. > :37:22.is the level of immigration into this country almost limitless. It is
:37:23. > :37:27.not limitless because it only applies to the country in the
:37:28. > :37:31.European Union. If people make this decision on the basis of Turkey, it
:37:32. > :37:35.would be making it on the basis of a hypothesis that if it ever does
:37:36. > :37:46.happen, it will not happen until a long period of time. We have areas
:37:47. > :37:49.with overcrowded A departments, people feel there are already too
:37:50. > :37:55.many people coming into this country, and if we vote to remain
:37:56. > :38:01.that will carry on. If we vote to leave, these problems will still
:38:02. > :38:07.remain. In the end, you take the NHS... You then have to renegotiate
:38:08. > :38:12.all of the trading arrangements that Britain has. It is an important
:38:13. > :38:15.point, Andrew, because if you renegotiate those trading
:38:16. > :38:21.arrangements, and remember half our trade goes into the European Union
:38:22. > :38:25.so it is essential to do that, number one that will be an agonising
:38:26. > :38:29.process and it will cast a pall of uncertainty over the British economy
:38:30. > :38:33.for many years, but secondly, if we want access back into the single
:38:34. > :38:40.market we will be renegotiating many of these things. A lot of people on
:38:41. > :38:42.the other side of the arguments they will go through World Trade
:38:43. > :38:49.Organisation rules so it is not certain. When they say that, that is
:38:50. > :38:53.when anyone who knows about these things knows they have lost the
:38:54. > :38:57.argument completely. The idea we would put our economic future into
:38:58. > :39:01.renegotiating our trade arrangements with the rest of the world through
:39:02. > :39:06.the WTO, that is an organisation that has one of the hardest tasks in
:39:07. > :39:11.the world. They have for years been trying to get a global trade round
:39:12. > :39:14.together, unsuccessfully. The notion that it is some simple manoeuvre to
:39:15. > :39:23.put our trading relationships through the hands of the WTO, to
:39:24. > :39:25.anybody who understands these things, it doesn't bear thinking of
:39:26. > :39:28.and they must know that when they are saying these things. It sounds
:39:29. > :39:34.like for you immigration at any level is a price worth paying for
:39:35. > :39:37.economic growth. I fought the last election in 2005 on immigration.
:39:38. > :39:41.Some of the legislation I put through the House of Commons work
:39:42. > :39:45.cutting down asylum seekers, I am sensitive to the issue of
:39:46. > :39:48.immigration and you have to be in politics today. I am opposed to
:39:49. > :39:55.their answer to it, which is to get out of Europe. It doesn't deal with
:39:56. > :40:01.non-EU immigration, and doesn't even really deal with EU immigration. But
:40:02. > :40:07.EU immigration is not controlled in a literal sense, nobody can control
:40:08. > :40:11.that. My question is, 180,000 this year, if it was half a million next
:40:12. > :40:18.year, and millions a year after, if it carries on growing, what is your
:40:19. > :40:22.message? My messages very simple. There is a problem of migration
:40:23. > :40:28.generally, if you actually break down the figures on EU migration,
:40:29. > :40:33.then many of these people come in on short-term contracts and then will
:40:34. > :40:37.go back out again. Many of these people work in vital public
:40:38. > :40:40.services, and we also get the benefit. The reason we can travel
:40:41. > :40:45.around Europe without restrictions is because of the free movement of
:40:46. > :40:51.people. Many people don't because they cannot afford to. Priti Patel
:40:52. > :40:58.has said today the Prime Minister is too rich, living a luxury lifestyle,
:40:59. > :41:03.and out of touch with communities. I'm sure she would include you in
:41:04. > :41:08.not. I'm sure she would but the idea that the people supporting the Leave
:41:09. > :41:14.campaign are people living in diminished economic circumstances,
:41:15. > :41:18.come on! We know the people who are bankrolling the Leave campaign,
:41:19. > :41:25.these people are not exactly your ordinary person. The argument about
:41:26. > :41:28.elite or not elite. This is a debate, probably the most important
:41:29. > :41:34.decision we will make since World War II by the way, and the fact is
:41:35. > :41:40.these people are focusing on immigration because on the economy
:41:41. > :41:44.it is now clear that we are going to suffer a deep after-shock if we
:41:45. > :41:51.leave the European Union. And when you get, I think the Economist
:41:52. > :41:58.newspaper has a pall of economists, 88% said leaving would be a
:41:59. > :42:02.disaster. I cannot think of any issue where 88% of economists have
:42:03. > :42:07.ever agreed. This is the thing we have got to work out and understand.
:42:08. > :42:11.This is a question about whether we would leave Europe, not whether we
:42:12. > :42:16.join. If we were in a situation where we weren't in the European
:42:17. > :42:19.Union, that is a debate. We have these interlocking economic
:42:20. > :42:27.relationships. You break that up and how can anyone argue you won't have
:42:28. > :42:29.a problem afterwards economically? These people say they care about
:42:30. > :42:34.people's living standards, and those in the poorest members of our
:42:35. > :42:38.society, they are the people who will suffer. Many of those people
:42:39. > :42:42.feel strongly about immigration and do feel it is too high and feel no
:42:43. > :42:46.reassurance because you cannot tell them anything that will change if we
:42:47. > :42:53.stay in. Lots of things will change in the way that we handle the
:42:54. > :42:57.immigration question. Yes, lots of things will change, but no, it is
:42:58. > :43:02.true, if you are ports of Europe there is this free movement of
:43:03. > :43:05.people and it works both ways. When David Cameron said he would get
:43:06. > :43:10.immigration down to the tens of thousands, that must have been
:43:11. > :43:14.nonsense. No because the majority of immigration into this country is
:43:15. > :43:18.non-EU. But if you can't deal with the numbers coming into this
:43:19. > :43:22.country, you cannot say tens of thousands, can you? He has
:43:23. > :43:28.negotiated an arrangement on benefits and so on. The evidence is
:43:29. > :43:34.that people who come in from the EU contribute far more in taxes than
:43:35. > :43:39.they take on benefits. You told us it was in our national interest not
:43:40. > :43:48.to join the euro. Wow, you were wrong about that. We never put the
:43:49. > :43:52.issue to the British people because the economic place was ambiguous.
:43:53. > :43:59.You guys said all of this is about the euro, well I went back and
:44:00. > :44:12.checked, no we didn't. I said unless there is a clear economic case to
:44:13. > :44:16.join the EU euro, we will do it. But all those people who said this is a
:44:17. > :44:20.politically driven and eventually catastrophic system have been proved
:44:21. > :44:25.right, and look what has happened across the south of Europe. Greece,
:44:26. > :44:30.Italy and Spain. This has been a disaster of policy. My point is
:44:31. > :44:35.people like you were in favour of it. We were never in favour of
:44:36. > :44:39.Britain joining the euro because in the end the economics didn't stack
:44:40. > :44:44.up. Politically I said it was always important to position ourselves as
:44:45. > :44:47.if in principle you were in favour but the economics weren't right. You
:44:48. > :44:57.said it was in our national interest to join. I never said that, I always
:44:58. > :45:00.said we shouldn't join unless the economics were right. The case for
:45:01. > :45:04.leaving Europe is a different case because even if you disagree with
:45:05. > :45:08.the euro, you surely don't disagree with Britain being part of the
:45:09. > :45:12.single market, because the single market, which was a British
:45:13. > :45:13.achievement under Thatcher, is essential for British jobs and
:45:14. > :45:24.industry. Should Britain never join the
:45:25. > :45:27.eurozone? There is no reason to take a position for the next 100 years
:45:28. > :45:31.but there is no remote possibility of Britain joining in the
:45:32. > :45:36.foreseeable future. In a few weeks, if we vote to leave the EU, what is
:45:37. > :45:43.the future for Britain five or ten years out? If we voted to leave, we
:45:44. > :45:48.would suffer an immediate shock to our economy. We would create years
:45:49. > :45:51.of uncertainty, because we would have to renegotiate all the
:45:52. > :45:58.complicated trading arrangements we have with the rest of Europe. That
:45:59. > :46:03.is not some hypothetical risk, it is something that you can and will see
:46:04. > :46:10.directly in people's jobs and living standards and in business's ability
:46:11. > :46:13.to work with confidence. It is an enormous economic problem. I don't
:46:14. > :46:22.think anyone can really dispute that. The question is whether that
:46:23. > :46:26.pain is worth the gain. What is very difficult to see is what the gain is
:46:27. > :46:30.that people say is so important. I know you can't talk about the
:46:31. > :46:34.Chilcot Inquiry and all of that, but after the ghastly episode of the
:46:35. > :46:37.Iraq war, are you seriously in favour of us going into Syria to
:46:38. > :46:45.confront Isis in Syria on the ground? I am in favour of
:46:46. > :46:49.confronting Isis on the ground but we don't need to do it with our own
:46:50. > :46:52.troops and boots on the ground. What the Americans have been doing with
:46:53. > :46:57.the support they have been given has had a huge impact on the fight
:46:58. > :47:02.against Isis. This is a global problem today. It is not just Isis
:47:03. > :47:09.in Syria. You have got Isis in Libya, Boko Haram, Al-Shabab, groups
:47:10. > :47:13.in the Philippines and Thailand. At the core of this problem we have got
:47:14. > :47:19.Isis, the so-called Islamic State, in Syria and Iraq, moving into a
:47:20. > :47:23.hideous vacuum created by the Iraqi war, created by the civil war, and
:47:24. > :47:28.ultimately created by decisions that you talk. If you take the countries
:47:29. > :47:34.on the critical list today, Syria, Iraq, Libya and Yemen, in only one
:47:35. > :47:39.of those cases have you got a government that is capable of
:47:40. > :47:42.fighting terrorism and is, that is recognised as internationally
:47:43. > :47:46.legitimate, including by both Saudi Arabia and Iran, and whose Prime
:47:47. > :47:49.Minister turns up in the White House. That is Iraq. I understand
:47:50. > :47:55.the issues and we will debate them when we get to Chilcot, but the idea
:47:56. > :47:57.that this all comes from the decision to remove Saddam Hussein,
:47:58. > :48:02.you have got to go back into this and look at the roots of it. The
:48:03. > :48:06.problem is that you plan and thought you were going to war but you didn't
:48:07. > :48:12.tell us. Chilcot will deal with all of these things. Will you accept
:48:13. > :48:17.Chilcot's verdict on this as a fair assessment after all this time? It
:48:18. > :48:22.is hard to say that when I haven't seen it. Of course you don't see the
:48:23. > :48:25.report until it comes out, so let's wait for that point. When you go
:48:26. > :48:29.back and you look at what was said, I don't think anyone can fiercely
:48:30. > :48:34.dispute that I was making it very clear what my position was. What
:48:35. > :48:38.makes it important when it does happen is that we have a full debate
:48:39. > :48:42.and I look forward to participating in that. Make no mistake about that.
:48:43. > :48:49.It is really important that we debate these issues, because we have
:48:50. > :48:53.got huge problems. People want to focus in Iraq, but look at all of
:48:54. > :48:56.the Middle East and all over the world and debate the right policy to
:48:57. > :49:00.deal with it. I hope we can persuade you to come back and sit in that
:49:01. > :49:04.chair and debate it at length when the Chilcot Inquiry report comes
:49:05. > :49:07.out. You said it would be a terrible risk for the British people to elect
:49:08. > :49:12.an extreme government, and you seem to be talking about Jeremy Corbyn.
:49:13. > :49:35.Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is a risk and do you want to see him
:49:36. > :49:38.as Prime Minister? I wasn't talking about Jeremy Corbyn, by the way. I
:49:39. > :49:41.was talking about the general populace in the world today. The
:49:42. > :49:44.word Jeremy Corbyn had been in the question so it was associated with
:49:45. > :49:47.it. That is the way it goes. But what I was talking about, and this
:49:48. > :49:49.is a whole other interview, was the insurgent movements of left and
:49:50. > :49:52.right. I think they are driven by a great deal of anger and populism
:49:53. > :49:55.that is able to ride that anger but they don't really provide answers to
:49:56. > :49:57.the problems that we face. Let me ask you about Jeremy Corbyn
:49:58. > :49:59.directly. I know there is history here but nonetheless, somebody
:50:00. > :50:01.trying to create a new economic policy for new times, trying to
:50:02. > :50:10.address the angry, trying to think of new Labour policies, not policies
:50:11. > :50:16.for New Labour. Are you being disloyal to him? I am not being
:50:17. > :50:26.disloyal. Let's see what the policies are. I don't disrespect him
:50:27. > :50:30.as a person or his views. Will you vote Labour with him? I will always
:50:31. > :50:35.vote Labour because that is just the way I am. In the end, what is always
:50:36. > :50:40.important in today's world, which is so uncertain and predictable, is
:50:41. > :50:43.that I understand how these movements are moving politics in an
:50:44. > :50:47.extraordinary way today and you can see it across the Atlantic and here
:50:48. > :50:53.and across Europe. Personally I would like to see the centre, and by
:50:54. > :50:56.that I mean the centre-left and the centre-right, get its grip back and
:50:57. > :50:59.its traction back on the political scene because I believe lots of the
:51:00. > :51:03.solutions to the problems we face today are less about ideology and
:51:04. > :51:07.far more to do with practicality and understanding modernity and the way
:51:08. > :51:17.the modern world works. Very last question. Many of the people who
:51:18. > :51:20.supported you all the way through feel you have become too rich and
:51:21. > :51:27.disconnected and you have trashed the brand. If you are reading stuff
:51:28. > :51:31.in the press about what I do nowadays, don't read and believe it.
:51:32. > :51:35.Look at my website and see what I actually do. I spent 80% of my time
:51:36. > :51:41.on unpaid work. I have literally spent weeks in the Middle East on a
:51:42. > :51:44.Middle East peace process. I have two foundations and I employ 200
:51:45. > :51:49.people and I have to raise and make the money for all of them. What we
:51:50. > :51:52.do is good and exciting work around the world but you will not read a
:51:53. > :51:59.bit of it here. If you want to know what I do, go and read the facts.
:52:00. > :52:00.Tony Blair, thank you very much. That was Tony Blair talking to me
:52:01. > :52:04.earlier this morning. Before we go on, let's hear
:52:05. > :52:07.from Nicky Campbell and what's coming up immediately
:52:08. > :52:14.after this programme. Join us from Oxford at ten o'clock
:52:15. > :52:19.by Wilt be asking one big question, did man create God? We have gathered
:52:20. > :52:23.together the various theologians and writers, people of various faiths
:52:24. > :52:26.and none. Join us at ten o'clock on BBC One. Interesting question.
:52:27. > :52:31.And I'm joined once more by Liam Fox and Yanis Varoufakis.
:52:32. > :52:40.You describe Tony Blair as a part of poison, and having watched that
:52:41. > :52:44.interview, what do you make of it? It was very hesitant. He made some
:52:45. > :52:48.good points. I agree that exiting the EU is not the same thing as
:52:49. > :52:53.entering. As a young man, I campaigned against Greece entering
:52:54. > :52:57.the European Union and the eurozone in particular of course. But to get
:52:58. > :53:02.out would not necessarily get you to where you would have been if you had
:53:03. > :53:05.not entered. That is a good point. But everything else, coming from
:53:06. > :53:16.Tony Blair as supportive of my side of politics, it is a kind of
:53:17. > :53:21.poisoned chalice, a kind of poison. People wonder about you, because you
:53:22. > :53:25.have seen the misery caused by the Euro in your own country and by
:53:26. > :53:30.migration, but you are telling us to stay in. That seems odd. Nobody can
:53:31. > :53:36.accuse me of being a lackey of Brussels or a European loyalist. The
:53:37. > :53:41.reason I am doing this, just to be sick thing is that I do not buy the
:53:42. > :53:45.scare campaign of Remain, that if you get out, there will be
:53:46. > :53:49.Armageddon the next day. That is nonsense. What I do fear is that the
:53:50. > :53:56.European Union as it is, under the weight of its hubris and malignancy
:53:57. > :54:00.and democratic vacuum, is disintegrating. Brexit would cause
:54:01. > :54:03.an exhilaration of this disintegration, and you cannot
:54:04. > :54:10.escape it. This situation will create a deflationary vortex and a
:54:11. > :54:13.toxicity that will consume your country, even if you vote to leave.
:54:14. > :54:17.This is why I am imploring you to stay in, and fight with us to change
:54:18. > :54:27.the European Union, because you can vote to check out but you can not
:54:28. > :54:30.change it afterwards. I said in the European elections one third of
:54:31. > :54:34.citizens will vote for parties that want to leave or destroy the
:54:35. > :54:38.European Union. I said what do you say to that and he said to me that
:54:39. > :54:41.if one third want to destroy than two thirds don't and we will
:54:42. > :54:45.continue as we are. That is my problem. Those in control of the
:54:46. > :54:50.European project are set on a course that they set in the 1950s and they
:54:51. > :54:54.are not changing trajectory. One of the things that I hope for is that
:54:55. > :54:57.if Britain chooses to live, it will deliver such a shock to those
:54:58. > :55:03.controlling the European system that they understand they must change
:55:04. > :55:06.direction for their citizens. They will double down and they will
:55:07. > :55:11.collapse in the same way they did in the 1920s and 30s, and that collapse
:55:12. > :55:15.will drag you down with them because Britain is so intertwined with the
:55:16. > :55:18.European Union. A Brexit vote is not going to create a cushion between
:55:19. > :55:24.you and a deflationary Europe that is necessary, to shield you from it.
:55:25. > :55:27.You mentioned ever closer union, Liam Fox, and we have a message from
:55:28. > :55:32.Number 10 to say that Samantha Cameron had flunked the remote
:55:33. > :55:39.control at the television set because David Cameron has got us out
:55:40. > :55:43.of that. Ever closer union will continue. The eurozone needs to
:55:44. > :55:46.integrate to diminish the risk that the Euro poses to monetary
:55:47. > :55:51.stability. They are going to go down that road. It doesn't matter what we
:55:52. > :55:54.think will stop that is the direction they have chosen. Ever
:55:55. > :55:57.since I came into the House of Commons 24 years ago, I have been
:55:58. > :56:00.told Europe is coming in our direction. It isn't. It is
:56:01. > :56:05.continuing the path of integration that I think is foolish and
:56:06. > :56:09.dangerous. Until the European Union is run for its citizens and not a
:56:10. > :56:14.self-serving elite, the danger will be to us and to the continent and to
:56:15. > :56:26.wider stability. We have to get control and we have to leave. We are
:56:27. > :56:29.completely out of time. Thank you both very much indeed. That is all
:56:30. > :56:30.we have time for. Next Sunday Boris Johnson will be here to argue the
:56:31. > :56:35.case for Britain to leave the EU. But we leave you now
:56:36. > :56:37.with some fine music. The late great John Peel once said
:56:38. > :56:40.that Laura Cantrell's debut album in 2000 was his favourite record
:56:41. > :56:43.of the last ten years From that album, here
:56:44. > :56:45.is Laura Cantrell Enjoy the rest of the Bank
:56:46. > :56:48.Holiday weekend! # I met a guy in a west coast town
:56:49. > :56:59.Had four walls to bring him down # And he sometimes speaks
:57:00. > :57:02.of you # Late at night he'd reminisce over
:57:03. > :57:20.the lips he used to kiss # Two seconds of your love
:57:21. > :57:52.is all I need from you # Two seconds of your time,
:57:53. > :57:57.that's enough to say we're through # Two beats of your heart,
:57:58. > :58:06.enough to know we'll never part # Two seconds of your love,
:58:07. > :58:21.that's all I ever want # Two seconds of your time,
:58:22. > :58:35.that's enough to say we're through # Two seconds of your love
:58:36. > :58:50.enough to know we'll never part