:00:00. > :00:09.As we say goodbye to the greatest sportsman of the last century,
:00:10. > :00:12.we can't offer you a Rumble in the Jungle this morning,
:00:13. > :00:15.but as the EU campaign heads towards knockout,
:00:16. > :00:35.we have two heavyweights for a Sunday morning showdown.
:00:36. > :00:37.In the blue corner, arguing for Remain,
:00:38. > :00:41.Sir John Major, former Prime Minister.
:00:42. > :00:53.leader of the Vote Leave insurrection Boris Johnson.
:00:54. > :00:56.I don't have much time for anything else,
:00:57. > :01:00.to the Hollywood A-lister Jesse Eisenberg
:01:01. > :01:04.on playing the ultimate comic-book villain, Lex Luthor.
:01:05. > :01:05.Casting an eye over this morning's news,
:01:06. > :01:08.the man who gave both David Cameron and Michael Gove
:01:09. > :01:10.a pretty good pummelling over the last few days,
:01:11. > :01:14.Faisal Islam, political editor of Sky News.
:01:15. > :01:17.the Green Party's once and perhaps future leader,
:01:18. > :01:21.and from the board of Vote Leave, Suzanne Evans.
:01:22. > :01:30.The family of Muhammad Ali say people from all over the world
:01:31. > :01:32.are invited to the boxer's funeral in his hometown
:01:33. > :01:40.Details of the service were revealed at a news conference in Arizona,
:01:41. > :01:43.where Ali died yesterday at the age of 74.
:01:44. > :01:49.Oh, my God, he's won the title back at 32!
:01:50. > :01:52.Even the vanquished have been paying tribute.
:01:53. > :01:58.George Foreman, floored by Muhammad Ali in the eighth
:01:59. > :02:01.round of the so-called Rumble in the Jungle,
:02:02. > :02:03.called him "the Greatest", and he was not alone.
:02:04. > :02:05.In Louisville, Kentucky, where Ali grew up,
:02:06. > :02:07.preparations are under way for the final homecoming.
:02:08. > :02:09.On Friday, his body will be driven through the streets ahead
:02:10. > :02:24.of a multi-faith memorial service at a local basketball arena.
:02:25. > :02:26.Meanwhile, further details have emerged
:02:27. > :02:30.a condition where the blood pressure drops dangerously low,
:02:31. > :02:33.surrounded at the time by members of his family.
:02:34. > :02:34.His daughter Hana posted pictures of her father
:02:35. > :02:37.and said on social media that his heart kept beating
:02:38. > :02:39.for 30 minutes after other organs failed.
:02:40. > :02:42.A testament, she said, to his strength of will.
:02:43. > :02:46.Muhammad Ali's funeral, and the procession preceding it,
:02:47. > :02:47.promises to be an event like no other.
:02:48. > :02:52.clustered around their television sets to watch his epic title fights,
:02:53. > :02:54.so millions will witness his final journey on TV and social media.
:02:55. > :03:07.David Willis, BBC News, Scottsdale, Arizona.
:03:08. > :03:13.will lead the tributes at Muhammad Ali's funeral.
:03:14. > :03:15.His death has sparked a political row in the US
:03:16. > :03:17.in the run-up to the presidential elections.
:03:18. > :03:20.Donald Trump said Ali would be missed by all.
:03:21. > :03:22.But the Democratic hopeful Senator Bernie Sanders
:03:23. > :03:27.Last year, Ali condemned a call by Mr Trump
:03:28. > :03:31.for a ban on Muslims entering the US.
:03:32. > :03:34.Here, the Prime Minister and Chancellor are warning
:03:35. > :03:38.that the cost of an average mortgage would rise by nearly ?1,000 per year
:03:39. > :03:45.They say a British exit would lead to tighter credit conditions.
:03:46. > :03:48.But the Vote Leave campaign have called that a "bogeyman" claim.
:03:49. > :03:49.Meanwhile, Boris Johnson and Michael Gove
:03:50. > :03:53.saying voters "cannot trust" the Government
:03:54. > :03:59.over possible future eurozone bailouts.
:04:00. > :04:04.who buy tickets from unofficial websites
:04:05. > :04:08.could be refused entry to matches at Euro 2016 in France,
:04:09. > :04:14.Uefa rules prevent tickets from being sold on,
:04:15. > :04:16.but the consumer group Which claims some unauthorised online sellers
:04:17. > :04:21.are charging as much as ?5,000 per game.
:04:22. > :04:24.Andy Murray will take on the world number one,
:04:25. > :04:27.Novak Djokovic, in the final of the French Open today.
:04:28. > :04:32.to reach this stage of the competition for nearly 80 years.
:04:33. > :04:36.Djokovic has won 12 of their past 14 matches,
:04:37. > :04:41.in the final of the Italian Open in Rome last month.
:04:42. > :04:44.That's all from me. Back to you, Andrew.
:04:45. > :04:59.There are days when the most impertinent? Important person is the
:05:00. > :05:08.picture editor, and thou have they done? This could be an award-winning
:05:09. > :05:15.cover on the Sunday Times. The Observer, a superb picture of Ali, a
:05:16. > :05:18.beautiful photograph. And the Sunday Telegraph have done well, a really
:05:19. > :05:23.quite scary picture, coming towards the reader at the top of the Sunday
:05:24. > :05:33.Telegraph, but lots more to talk about there. He shook up the world,
:05:34. > :05:36.the Sunday Mirror. The crux dumber Greatest, a colour photograph, I
:05:37. > :05:39.prefer a black and white one, but sometimes simplicity is the best.
:05:40. > :05:49.This refers to as daughter's tweet that we heard about on the news. I
:05:50. > :05:54.am not sure about the Sun on Sunday! We are going to start, because we
:05:55. > :05:57.are a political programme, with the politics. Faisal Islam, you are a
:05:58. > :06:01.political man through and through, and you have chosen perhaps the most
:06:02. > :06:14.interesting of the many interviews in today's's papers as either side
:06:15. > :06:18.comes out. The Prime Minister has come and fighting, bringing it back
:06:19. > :06:24.to Boris Johnson and all of his arguments seem to come back to
:06:25. > :06:27.quoting him on his arguments about the economy. That is quite
:06:28. > :06:32.interesting. They say they are trying to avoid blue on blue, it
:06:33. > :06:34.seems to be percolating through the whole of this interview. Another
:06:35. > :06:39.interview with the Chancellor, George Osborne, again the same sorts
:06:40. > :06:43.of messages around the economy, perhaps the most interesting line is
:06:44. > :06:49.that he says it is a battle for the soul of the country. I am pretty
:06:50. > :06:53.sure Suzanne and those on the Leave side agree. And Michael Gove making
:06:54. > :06:58.the issue about the economy, he said in an interview that we did earlier
:06:59. > :07:03.this week, you know, expert opinion, people are fed up with it. David
:07:04. > :07:07.Smith, the economics editor of the Sunday Times, talking about leaving
:07:08. > :07:11.the single market, risking a world of pain. The Prime Minister's I come
:07:12. > :07:16.and will be focused on the single market, perhaps as much as the EU,
:07:17. > :07:29.in the days to come. -- the Prime Minister's argument. Boris Johnson
:07:30. > :07:32.will be talking about that later. Of those two interviews, which have
:07:33. > :07:38.both been spectacular, which was the hardest? Did you change your mind
:07:39. > :07:42.about either of them? You have written in the Observer. They were
:07:43. > :07:50.both very difficult, they are both superb debaters. Perhaps coming
:07:51. > :07:54.second was an advantage, but we felt it was an important moment for the
:07:55. > :08:00.country, and you need to be robust in shaking the tree and seeing what
:08:01. > :08:03.comes out of that, when you shake the tree rather aggressively, and we
:08:04. > :08:08.got new information out of both of them. We are looking forward to the
:08:09. > :08:14.rest of the TV specials. Lots more to come. All right, Suzanne Evans,
:08:15. > :08:19.you have taken the letter to the Prime Minister, they write a lot of
:08:20. > :08:23.letters, these guys. The headline is likely misleading, because it tells
:08:24. > :08:31.also been signed by Gisela Stuart, a Labour MP. It is trying to put David
:08:32. > :08:35.Cameron on the back foot, because the point we need to make is that
:08:36. > :08:41.our membership of the EU leaves Britain dangerously exposed to being
:08:42. > :08:44.forced into handing more money to Brussels, and this is the
:08:45. > :08:49.fundamental crux of the matter. What is important about this letter is it
:08:50. > :08:53.is about Vote Leave taking the initiative on the economy, showing
:08:54. > :08:57.just how serious the crisis in the eurozone is at the moment, even
:08:58. > :09:02.though we are not in the euro, that is absolutely hitting us and will
:09:03. > :09:06.hit us very hard already. We have got ?9 billion with loans and
:09:07. > :09:10.bailout outstanding, and this is not going to stop, Greece is expected to
:09:11. > :09:18.miss its July payment, Italy's debt is racking up. The point is that it
:09:19. > :09:24.is just as dangerous staying on. We have not got a choice of business as
:09:25. > :09:30.usual, each one takes us into new territory. It is not a vote for the
:09:31. > :09:34.status quo, and on the economy it is very dangerous, because if we vote
:09:35. > :09:40.to remain, it will be a green light for Brussels to say, Britain wants
:09:41. > :09:49.to stay in, full steam ahead. You used the Wood Green Kamal Ahmed to
:09:50. > :09:55.bring in Caroline Lucas! -- you used the word green, allowing me to bring
:09:56. > :09:59.in Caroline Lucas. Thank goodness! They are taking misinformation to a
:10:00. > :10:03.new level, trying to persuade us they are going to be the champions
:10:04. > :10:07.of progressive politics. They are saying that leaving the EU would
:10:08. > :10:11.liberate them to invest in public services. We have already seen the
:10:12. > :10:15.Tory government trying to invest in public services, haven't we? Not
:10:16. > :10:19.excite this is them trying to pretend Brexit is the only way to
:10:20. > :10:27.realise the dream of a one-nation Britain. They are not interested in
:10:28. > :10:31.that, and essentially you have got the complaining about the EU being
:10:32. > :10:36.all about corporate giants, bankers, the undeserving rich. The idea that
:10:37. > :10:44.these people care about us, this is the agenda they have been running in
:10:45. > :10:47.government, it stinks of hypocrisy. Is this campaign beginning to morph
:10:48. > :10:53.into an alternative government on offer? We have almost a pledge card
:10:54. > :10:57.from the Leave side. Before we get onto that, I just wanted to pick up
:10:58. > :11:04.a rather wonderful piece in your article today, Faisal, this lovely
:11:05. > :11:07.expression, talking about post-truth politics, the elevation of strategic
:11:08. > :11:14.political lying to an art form. This is what is happening with this ?350
:11:15. > :11:24.million... It doesn't apply to all sides, I should say. We know this
:11:25. > :11:37.bus with the numbers and is a lie. It is a complete lie! Faisal, sort
:11:38. > :11:42.them out! OK... It is about the amount of money British people but
:11:43. > :11:47.into the economy... Ladies, please! It is not just about the
:11:48. > :11:51.Conservatives, Andrew, the arguments we are hearing, they will be the
:11:52. > :11:56.same for the next 18 days, with Labour voters, they will unlock this
:11:57. > :12:01.referendum technically, in terms of the sheer numbers. There is a very
:12:02. > :12:08.interesting poll in the Observer just underneath your piece, showing
:12:09. > :12:12.the big groups of Leave and Remain voters, and those most likely to
:12:13. > :12:20.vote for Remain Labour voters. If they turn out - unions are putting
:12:21. > :12:27.in millions of pounds for Labour canvassers working for the in
:12:28. > :12:30.campaign. Now we have Jeremy Corbyn, Pat John McDonnell is most
:12:31. > :12:36.interesting, saying that the Conservative establishment should
:12:37. > :12:39.step back from the blue on blue framing of the campaign, and people
:12:40. > :12:44.like him should step up, he can make the progressive case that Caroline
:12:45. > :12:48.was talking about. We need some women making the case, I am grateful
:12:49. > :12:52.that the Remain campaign will be putting up three women to take on
:12:53. > :12:58.Boris, a very wise idea, but if you look at the papers around us, this
:12:59. > :13:04.is dominated by men. It is dominated by the same arguments. Priti Patel
:13:05. > :13:08.has been right at the front. I think, as well, as Faisal is saying,
:13:09. > :13:12.the economy on one side, immigration on the other, but there are 1
:13:13. > :13:16.million other arguments that are not getting any airspace. For example,
:13:17. > :13:20.the environment, we know environmental problems are across
:13:21. > :13:26.boundaries, they do not queue up at borders. You have a Times story
:13:27. > :13:31.about every pollution. A perfect example of where you need EU laws to
:13:32. > :13:35.try to reduce it. This is the story of a mother who believes that Evelyn
:13:36. > :13:40.contributed to her daughter's fatal asthma attack, and she is preparing
:13:41. > :13:46.to sue the Mayor of London as a result. -- who believes that air
:13:47. > :13:50.pollution contributed. If they were dying as a result of gun crime, we
:13:51. > :13:55.would see some commensurate action. The fact that it is an environmental
:13:56. > :13:59.problem, a problem of inequality, the fact that people in the poorest
:14:00. > :14:02.areas of our country, people from ethnic minorities in particular,
:14:03. > :14:08.they are on the front line of this. This is a story not just about the
:14:09. > :14:11.environment but inequality. She is suing the London mayor, is what
:14:12. > :14:20.she's saying, how is that EU problem? There is a parallel case,
:14:21. > :14:29.the client is taking action against the EU. Let's keep moving on. It is
:14:30. > :14:33.not just a EU problem. We have got another story, I want to keep
:14:34. > :14:38.rushing through. One of the things that is really good about this
:14:39. > :14:42.referendum, in the Sun, some of the issues that come up and EU level
:14:43. > :14:45.pass under the radar and go unnoticed and pass into legislation
:14:46. > :14:50.without anybody noticing. The referendum is bringing some of these
:14:51. > :14:55.to the fore, and this is the latest EU tax initiative, which is meaning
:14:56. > :14:59.that we will all be given a new personal European taxpayer idea
:15:00. > :15:03.number. The Sun says the plan has been drawn up and has been
:15:04. > :15:06.rubber-stamped by the EU parliament's economic and monetary
:15:07. > :15:09.affairs committee. This is the kind of thing I was talking about
:15:10. > :15:12.earlier, not the status quo, they are taking control of tax, it will
:15:13. > :15:28.be wages and benefits. They also plan to set up and -- a
:15:29. > :15:34.register of assets. Let us lead elegantly to social
:15:35. > :15:37.media. An interesting story about Damian McBride.
:15:38. > :15:45.My colleague Neil Paterson spotted a tweet that appeared to be a direct
:15:46. > :15:48.message, occasionally one can make this mistake, this appeared last
:15:49. > :15:53.night from Damian McBride, the former advisor to Gordon Brown, the
:15:54. > :16:01.current adviser to the Shadow Defence Secretary.
:16:02. > :16:09.Big in the Labour family. And helping the boat Leave campaign.
:16:10. > :16:15.He speaks about somebody called MG, who could that be?
:16:16. > :16:19.Michael Gove. According to the politics home
:16:20. > :16:23.website, Damian Brian Grummitt says it is a personal friendship thing --
:16:24. > :16:32.Damian McBride. We must mention Muhammad Ali, some
:16:33. > :16:36.fantastic pictures and stories. The Sunday Telegraph, the most
:16:37. > :16:42.beautiful picture. Black and white. You get that sense
:16:43. > :16:48.of the magnetism of all these people wanting to be close to him.
:16:49. > :16:52.His personality comes over. The Sunday Times front page as Ed
:16:53. > :16:59.deserved the award, I don't know if they have won it here.
:17:00. > :17:06.Not just a sporting com historical icon. I was born after his last
:17:07. > :17:12.fights. His famous quote has a second line, your hands can't hit
:17:13. > :17:16.what your rise can't see. There is a suggestion he started wrap is it, to
:17:17. > :17:21.add to his other extraordinary achievements.
:17:22. > :17:25.An extraordinarily eloquent man. Some great quotes, I am the
:17:26. > :17:32.greatest, I said that even before I knew I was, and he comes across in
:17:33. > :17:38.parts as being a philosopher. Cassius Clay is my slave name, I
:17:39. > :17:43.didn't choose it. Muhammad Ali means the God, I insist people use it when
:17:44. > :17:49.people speak of me. Wonderful. Live every day, like it
:17:50. > :17:52.is your last because Sunday you are going to be right, how poignant.
:17:53. > :17:55.A very good motto for all of us. Now the weather, and there's a taste
:17:56. > :17:58.summer coming today for some of us. Over to Jay Wynne
:17:59. > :18:13.in the weather studio. Looking pretty good, after a slow
:18:14. > :18:17.start. We have some mist and fog fairly extensively, but it is
:18:18. > :18:24.breaking and burning its way back to the eastern coast. The immediate
:18:25. > :18:31.eastern coastal strip will be cooler than inland where it will be lovely
:18:32. > :18:38.with sunshine. A scattering of showers across the western side of
:18:39. > :18:43.the UK. Inland, 26 degrees widely, cooler for the North Sea coast.
:18:44. > :18:48.Showers this afternoon could be on the sharp side. Fading away
:18:49. > :18:54.overnight. Mist and fog will return to eastern coastal counties by dawn.
:18:55. > :19:02.A few places will slip into single figures. Further west, a warm night.
:19:03. > :19:10.A bright start tomorrow. A slow start on the eastern side. Inland,
:19:11. > :19:15.plenty of sunshine and some warmth, just a scattering of showers in the
:19:16. > :19:17.south and west. A much higher chance of seeing showers on Tuesday, some
:19:18. > :19:21.could be heavy. Now to main event, part one -
:19:22. > :19:23.Sir John Major, who struggled through every day
:19:24. > :19:25.of his premiership against rebellious,
:19:26. > :19:26.anti-Brussels Tories. He's described the Leave campaign
:19:27. > :19:30.as an unforgivable fraud on the British people,
:19:31. > :19:42.and he joins me now. Those are strong words, are you
:19:43. > :19:50.referring when you talk about that, too Boris Johnson in particular?
:19:51. > :19:55.It goes much wider. As the leader, Boris is in a position to stop it. I
:19:56. > :19:59.felt that for several reasons. Firstly on the economy. And what
:20:00. > :20:04.would happen if we actually left. The Leave campaign has said nothing
:20:05. > :20:10.to the British people. But they have said about leaving is fundamentally
:20:11. > :20:14.dishonest about the cost of Europe. On the subject they have veered
:20:15. > :20:18.towards having lost the economic argument of immigration, I think
:20:19. > :20:23.their campaign is verging on the squalid, I have said so before.
:20:24. > :20:26.I am happy to say so again. Is it not possible these are thoroughly
:20:27. > :20:32.honourable men who have taken a big political risk, missed their
:20:33. > :20:34.political reputations and futures, standing for something they
:20:35. > :20:37.fundamentally believe in and agreed bid by a huge number of British
:20:38. > :20:42.people? I have no doubt there are many in
:20:43. > :20:45.this country, including members of the Leave campaign who believe what
:20:46. > :20:51.they say, I have never questioned that. For Boris, it was a late
:20:52. > :20:56.conversion. I don't know if it was a day trip to Damascus. At the last
:20:57. > :21:01.moment, everyone thought he was in favour of staying. He has made up
:21:02. > :21:06.his mind and I respect that. Now they have begun, they are feeding to
:21:07. > :21:10.the British people a galaxy of inaccurate and frankly untrue
:21:11. > :21:14.information. What they have not done is tell us what would be the
:21:15. > :21:19.position if we were to vote to leave. It would be chaotic and
:21:20. > :21:39.damaging. The people who would suffer most would be the ordinary,
:21:40. > :21:42.everyday man and woman in the street.
:21:43. > :21:45.They need to tell us if they wish us to leave what it would be like, and
:21:46. > :21:47.how they would then meet some of the objectives they have set out. They
:21:48. > :21:50.have said an extra 300,000 jobs would be created because we could
:21:51. > :21:53.strike our own trade deals with the US, China and other countries. It is
:21:54. > :21:55.fantasy. We have 3 million jobs connected, not wholly relied, but
:21:56. > :21:57.connected to our present trade with the EU and the single market. I
:21:58. > :22:00.gather their current policy is they will leave the single market. There
:22:01. > :22:01.would be a great hole according to every commentator in our public
:22:02. > :22:08.finances. These promises of expenditure on the
:22:09. > :22:14.NHS and elsewhere are fact Lusk, a deceit. We would lose a huge amount
:22:15. > :22:17.in terms of national income through trade, small businesses who sell
:22:18. > :22:21.their goods to Europe, who would sell less because if we let the
:22:22. > :22:26.single market, we would face a tariff barrier around 10%. We would
:22:27. > :22:31.sell less. People would lose their jobs. We would find ourselves in a
:22:32. > :22:34.worse position and the Leave campaign can turn to no serious
:22:35. > :22:41.organisation who believes what they have said about the economy, and
:22:42. > :22:44.about the future of Britain in the single market.
:22:45. > :22:47.You are saying this is a deceitful campaign, are you saying Boris
:22:48. > :22:51.Johnson is lying? I am not personalising this, though
:22:52. > :22:56.I find it difficult to understand how Boris can justify the ?350
:22:57. > :23:01.million he has won his battle bus that he and Michael Gove have
:23:02. > :23:06.defended time and again. You know, I know, the IFS knows, everyone knows,
:23:07. > :23:11.Boris knows, the real net amount we sent to Europe is about one third of
:23:12. > :23:16.that, after the rebate and the money paid back to our fishermen, farmers,
:23:17. > :23:20.researchers, the we sent a Europe is about one third of the amount they
:23:21. > :23:28.claim. If they can't be and honest on a
:23:29. > :23:31.clear-cut fact like that, upon what else can we trust them?
:23:32. > :23:36.You use words like straightforward, honest, deceitful, yet you are not
:23:37. > :23:41.saying you are personalising this. I am talking about the Leave
:23:42. > :23:45.campaign, not individuals. I will tell you, throughout the
:23:46. > :23:49.whole of my political life, people have regarded me of being guilty of
:23:50. > :23:53.understatement. I am angry at the way the British
:23:54. > :23:57.people are being misled. This is much more important than a
:23:58. > :24:00.general election, this will affect people, their livelihoods, their
:24:01. > :24:03.future, for a very long time to come.
:24:04. > :24:06.If they are given honest, straightforward facts and they
:24:07. > :24:11.decide to leave, that is the decision the British people take.
:24:12. > :24:17.If they decide on the basis of inaccurate information, known to be
:24:18. > :24:21.inaccurate, I regard that as deceitful.
:24:22. > :24:25.I may be wrong but that is how I see their campaign.
:24:26. > :24:29.This is so important. For once, I am not prepared to give the benefit of
:24:30. > :24:32.the doubt, I will say what I think exactly.
:24:33. > :24:38.I think this is a deceitful campaign. In terms of what they are
:24:39. > :24:42.saying about immigration, a really depressing and awful campaign. They
:24:43. > :24:48.are misleading people to an extraordinary extent.
:24:49. > :24:52.Let's let us move to emigration, as promised, immigration was below
:24:53. > :24:56.50,000. It is now a third of a million and rising fast. It is not
:24:57. > :25:00.racist or xenophobic to be really worried about that, the effect on
:25:01. > :25:05.schools. Everyone is worried about that. But
:25:06. > :25:07.they don't seem to have an answer. We will come directly to that if you
:25:08. > :25:13.wish. Let me take that head on.
:25:14. > :25:17.Immigration is very high, this causes great troubles for us, not
:25:18. > :25:20.only us but across Europe. Half the world is on the move at the moment
:25:21. > :25:26.because of what is happening in north Africa, the Middle East, fears
:25:27. > :25:30.about Russia, eastern Europe, the economic difficulty within the
:25:31. > :25:34.eurozone, there are a lot of people on the move. They come here because
:25:35. > :25:40.we are a great and successful country. The nonsense we hear about
:25:41. > :25:43.let us get our Mojo back and be a great country, we are great and
:25:44. > :25:50.successful which is why people are coming to us. How long will this
:25:51. > :25:54.last? It is a serious problem. You will see a diminution as the
:25:55. > :26:01.eurozone recovers, and it is recovering, growing as fast as us.
:26:02. > :26:06.But it isn't just us. The point that really angers me is the utterly
:26:07. > :26:12.false suggestion repeated more than once, not in the single off-hand
:26:13. > :26:18.remark but in scripted speeches, that we face the risk of 88 million
:26:19. > :26:24.Turks coming here. Firstly, Turkey are not in the EU. They are unlikely
:26:25. > :26:30.to be in the EU in the next decade or two, even if they were, we are
:26:31. > :26:35.outside the Schengen Agreement. In any event, is it seriously suggested
:26:36. > :26:39.as they do that all 88 million would come here? Apparently, for our
:26:40. > :26:43.higher National living wage, on the one hand they say migrants are
:26:44. > :26:49.depressing wages, on the other, people are flooding in to get our
:26:50. > :26:52.higher national wage. That is nonsense on stilts.
:26:53. > :26:55.The EU wants Turkey to join, the British garment wants them to join,
:26:56. > :26:58.the Prime Minister has said he would pave the way from Brussels to
:26:59. > :27:04.Ankara. This is not a complete fantasy.
:27:05. > :27:07.This decision could be with us the 30 or 50 years, during that
:27:08. > :27:12.period... The Turks have been negotiating for
:27:13. > :27:19.30 years a series of different things. Negotiated one of about 30.
:27:20. > :27:23.Even if they could reach agreement with the EU, any one nation in the
:27:24. > :27:27.EU could veto their joining. The French have already said they would
:27:28. > :27:31.have a referendum on that issue. The Germans almost certainly will follow
:27:32. > :27:39.suit. Turkey will not be in the EU for a very long time, if ever, for a
:27:40. > :27:43.series of practical reasons. And the Leave campaign knows that.
:27:44. > :27:48.That is the point. There are people watching this who will say, hold on,
:27:49. > :27:52.Sir John Major, the man who negotiated the Maastricht Treaty, at
:27:53. > :27:58.that time, you got your opt outs, I was there at the time in the rain
:27:59. > :28:03.and dark. Nonetheless, we were being told that the EU was not going to
:28:04. > :28:06.evolve into a very centralised superstate and sprawl and spread.
:28:07. > :28:12.Actually, your critics were right then, that is what has happened.
:28:13. > :28:16.It hasn't. You are right, I did negotiate the opt out for the single
:28:17. > :28:23.currency. I am told by the Leave campaign I am wrong on everything
:28:24. > :28:27.about you but I was wrong on that. And this is the direction of
:28:28. > :28:32.travel... We were out of Shannon because I
:28:33. > :28:37.declined to join in 1996. What happened, we negotiated at
:28:38. > :28:42.Maastricht a safeguard, the subsidiarity safeguard, which was
:28:43. > :28:47.then bypassed. David Cameron has now effectively reinstated that with his
:28:48. > :28:53.red card system. It has been reinstated. Any more power in a
:28:54. > :28:56.treaty, this is very important, a treaty to Europe, would have by
:28:57. > :29:01.British law to be approved in a referendum. If there is a grab
:29:02. > :29:04.towards a superstate which they may integrate further inside the
:29:05. > :29:12.eurozone, but we're not in the eurozone.
:29:13. > :29:14.Does not leave us a rickety side cast going to a place we don't want
:29:15. > :29:18.to go. Only if you think we are a little
:29:19. > :29:25.country. We are a big country, one of the biggest countries in the
:29:26. > :29:28.European union, outside the eurozone, we are not responsible for
:29:29. > :29:33.their debts, we're not going to be responsible for their debts, we will
:29:34. > :29:37.not enter the eurozone. We are staying in a wider Europe. We will
:29:38. > :29:41.continue to trade with Europe if we are wise. But we're not involved in
:29:42. > :29:47.what is happening in the part of Europe which is in difficulty. If we
:29:48. > :29:50.cut ourselves adrift, we will become a vastly diminished country.
:29:51. > :29:56.We were talking about the world after Brexit, you will have seen a
:29:57. > :30:03.series of pledges 100 minute pounds a week the NHS, an Australian style
:30:04. > :30:04.points system, new farming subsidies. It is beginning to look
:30:05. > :30:13.like another manifesto. Well, it is certainly very ill
:30:14. > :30:17.thought out. The concept that people running the Brexit campaign would
:30:18. > :30:21.care for the NHS is a rather odd one. Michael Gove wanted to
:30:22. > :30:24.privatise it, Boris wanted to charge people for using it, Iain Duncan
:30:25. > :30:31.Smith wanted a social insurance system. The NHS is about as safe as
:30:32. > :30:36.them as a pet hamster with a hungry python. I do not think that is very
:30:37. > :30:39.wise. As far as immigration is concerned, what they are planning is
:30:40. > :30:44.immensely difficult. Let us suppose that they win, let us suppose that
:30:45. > :30:48.for a moment, and it is possible, and it is possible. Let us suppose
:30:49. > :30:54.that they win and their policies on immigration were implemented.
:30:55. > :30:59.Firstly, as you know, the Scots may hold another referendum, we might
:31:00. > :31:04.end up with Britain out of the European Union and Scotland out of
:31:05. > :31:11.the UK. If Scotland is out of the UK, you, Andrew, you will be a
:31:12. > :31:17.migrant. I will be sent back over the border, I am sure! How are they
:31:18. > :31:20.going to reduce the numbers? There are more people coming into this
:31:21. > :31:26.country from outside the European Union than inside. Who are the
:31:27. > :31:31.people they are going to send back? The 52,000 doctors in the NHS?
:31:32. > :31:36.Doctors and nurses? The 80,000 care workers? I think they are not
:31:37. > :31:40.talking about sending anybody back, the Luxembourg Agreement means we
:31:41. > :31:46.can stay. How are they going to reduce the numbers? Who will they
:31:47. > :31:50.stop coming in? Footballers? We need some practical information, and we
:31:51. > :31:57.are now at getting it. People are being invited to vote for a pig in a
:31:58. > :32:01.poke. Two final thoughts, is this about Boris Johnson's personal
:32:02. > :32:05.ambition? I cannot see inside his mind, and I wouldn't attempt to try
:32:06. > :32:09.and do so. But I would just offer this piece of friendly advice, I
:32:10. > :32:18.like Boris, I don't know him well, but what I've seen of him, he is a
:32:19. > :32:21.very engaging and charming court jester and a very engaging and
:32:22. > :32:25.charming public figure, and he is very likeable, and people like him.
:32:26. > :32:30.But I would offer in this piece of advice. If the Leave campaign led by
:32:31. > :32:35.Boris continued to divide the Conservative Party, as we are doing
:32:36. > :32:39.at the present time, and if Boris as the laudable ambition, for it is
:32:40. > :32:44.laudable, to become Prime Minister, he will find, if he achieves that,
:32:45. > :32:49.that he will not have the loyalty of the party leader divided. Iain
:32:50. > :32:54.Duncan Smith was serially disloyal in the 1990s. When he became leader,
:32:55. > :32:58.he was surprised that no-one was loyal to him. Boris should learn
:32:59. > :33:03.from that. I think Boris, for all his instincts in the past, those of
:33:04. > :33:07.a one-nation Tory, which is where I stand, he seems to have drifted away
:33:08. > :33:10.from that with the way in which they are approaching immigration and some
:33:11. > :33:17.of the other things. I would like to see him get back, cos if he gets
:33:18. > :33:20.back, here is an engaging, important, engaging Conservative
:33:21. > :33:25.figure. Do you think the Conservative Party is in danger of
:33:26. > :33:28.dividing? Well, we will have to wait and see. All I can say is that,
:33:29. > :33:34.whether the Conservative Party divides or not is one thing we must
:33:35. > :33:38.look at in the future, but that is not as important as the decision
:33:39. > :33:42.that we have to make. This is not about political parties, it is not
:33:43. > :33:46.about the elites, it is about the everyday man and woman in the
:33:47. > :33:50.street, and their children and grandchildren. It is their future
:33:51. > :33:54.that we will play Russian roulette with if we leave the European Union.
:33:55. > :33:58.Last question, given what you have said about Boris Johnson today and
:33:59. > :34:02.in the past, is he fit to be Prime Minister? I am not making that
:34:03. > :34:06.judgment, that is a matter for a much wider, a much wider view than
:34:07. > :34:10.mine, a matter for the Conservative Party, ultimately the whole
:34:11. > :34:14.electorate, so I would not be so impertinent as to have a suggestion
:34:15. > :34:18.either way. I merely say that whether Boris is Prime Minister, it
:34:19. > :34:21.is no doubt an important matter for Boris and other people, but it is
:34:22. > :34:26.less important than the decision we have to take in less than three
:34:27. > :34:32.weeks' time. That is crucial, and I must say, if I may put it this way,
:34:33. > :34:36.of all the participants, there is nobody on the Leave side of the
:34:37. > :34:42.campaign who has, as I have, sat at the top table in Europe for seven
:34:43. > :34:48.years. And I know from what I have seen inside the European Union that
:34:49. > :34:57.what they say about an elected elites is absolute hogwash. --
:34:58. > :35:01.unelected. The commission are appointed for a limited period of
:35:02. > :35:05.time, they are told to produce legislation, which then has to be
:35:06. > :35:11.approved by ministers, the European Parliament, the Westminster
:35:12. > :35:17.Parliament. The belief that an unelected elite is running wild is
:35:18. > :35:22.copper bottomed nonsense. Thank you very much for talking to us, Boris
:35:23. > :35:24.Johnson will be here soon. A break from politics first!
:35:25. > :35:25.Ever since his breakthrough performance
:35:26. > :35:27.as Mark Zuckerberg in The Social Network,
:35:28. > :35:30.Jesse Eisenberg has become one of the hottest names in Hollywood.
:35:31. > :35:32.But rather irritatingly, he's also an accomplished writer
:35:33. > :35:33.of short stories and plays, including one
:35:34. > :35:36.which has just opened in London to great acclaim, The Spoils.
:35:37. > :35:38.We talked about that recently, but began by discussing
:35:39. > :35:41.the reaction to his performance as the dastardly Lex Luthor
:35:42. > :35:47.in this year's blockbuster movie Batman versus Superman.
:35:48. > :35:49.Civil liberties are being trampled on in your city,
:35:50. > :35:57.people living in fear. He thinks he's above the law.
:35:58. > :36:02.Bruce Wayne meets Clark Kent, I love it!
:36:03. > :36:05.I love bringing people together, how are we?
:36:06. > :36:10.Wow, that is a good grip, you should not pick a fight
:36:11. > :36:14.Playing Lex Luthor in Superman versus Batman, you were the first
:36:15. > :36:17.to play a younger Lex Luthor than the main characters.
:36:18. > :36:22.You played him as a deeply troubled kid almost.
:36:23. > :36:29.How do you deal with the hostile critics?
:36:30. > :36:33.You have lots of unhostile critics. How do you deal with the bad ones?
:36:34. > :36:38.I don't read anything, good reviews or bad reviews.
:36:39. > :36:41.I can't imagine that I am going to be aided by somebody else
:36:42. > :36:45.That's just not helpful to me or interesting to me.
:36:46. > :36:47.Criticism is wonderful, but it is not written for me,
:36:48. > :36:50.it's for those who decide whether to pay $10 to see it.
:36:51. > :36:55.It has no bearing on me whatsoever. I work very hard on everything I do.
:36:56. > :36:59.I think about it in ways no-one else can think about this.
:37:00. > :37:02.And I don't want to be influenced by anything else,
:37:03. > :37:09.What am I going to do, reshoot a movie? I don't know.
:37:10. > :37:12.I imagine with a movie like Batman, irrespective of any portrayal,
:37:13. > :37:20.you will get criticism, praise, debate.
:37:21. > :37:26.All of it is going to be totally out of proportion with what it deserves.
:37:27. > :37:30.This is a very New York play, it has a very New York feel to it.
:37:31. > :37:35.You got huge standing ovations in New York.
:37:36. > :37:37.Here you are, in front of a different London audience.
:37:38. > :37:45.It has been better here, I don't know what accounts for that.
:37:46. > :37:47.I don't know if it's the theatre community here
:37:48. > :37:50.by virtue of it being a more important art form here,
:37:51. > :37:53.if they are more in tune, listening in a different way.
:37:54. > :37:55.Listening more acutely, appreciating it in different way.
:37:56. > :37:58.Because it's an American play, is it a novelty? I don't know.
:37:59. > :38:00.The reaction has been better than in New York.
:38:01. > :38:03.It has been an honour and pleasure to be here.
:38:04. > :38:06.I've always thought of New York as the centre of the world,
:38:07. > :38:12.But I've always though of London and the UK in general as the centre
:38:13. > :38:20.of theatre, and the most important place for theatre in the world.
:38:21. > :38:27.It is quite a bleak view of contemporary America, Ben, your
:38:28. > :38:34.character, a spoiled rich kid who seems to be drifting through life.
:38:35. > :38:38.My personal world-view was not summed up by that character. There
:38:39. > :38:42.are five characters in the play with jobs that benefits society, even if
:38:43. > :38:47.they are in the banking sector, which we consider less benevolent.
:38:48. > :38:53.Your banker is quite a good guy, unusual on the stage at the moment.
:38:54. > :38:58.Four characters in the play, one is a young doctor, she is Indian
:38:59. > :39:03.American. The other is a teaching incarcerated youth, based on my best
:39:04. > :39:07.friend. And then my character is bleak, but my character is not
:39:08. > :39:12.representing my personal world-view. My world-view is represented by all
:39:13. > :39:22.of them together. That world-view suggests that you think women do a
:39:23. > :39:27.lot of the heavy lifting, the women hang around behind. I grew up with
:39:28. > :39:30.strong women, I have been volunteering at a domestic violence
:39:31. > :39:34.shelter for the last few months, I have a personal connection to that,
:39:35. > :39:40.so I got to see the best side of a primarily female driven organisation
:39:41. > :39:43.helping the males get back on their feet. -- the
:39:44. > :39:46.Yes, my view of women is, yes, at least in my life,
:39:47. > :39:48.that they tend to be that much more effective.
:39:49. > :39:50.OK, so you write plays, short stories, I think
:39:51. > :39:53.a novel as well, you act, using to do everything.
:39:54. > :39:55.People are talking about you as the new Orson Welles.
:39:56. > :39:57.Does that daunt you, does it weigh on your
:39:58. > :40:01.No, because it's not not an accurate portrayal of my ambitions.
:40:02. > :40:08.What does daunt me is we have one performance in eight hours,
:40:09. > :40:12.and that's all I can think about until it happens.
:40:13. > :40:14.That's most daunting thing in the world after it happens,
:40:15. > :40:18.I have half an hour of relief, then another show the next day,
:40:19. > :40:21.in the afternoon at 2pm. That is absolutely daunting.
:40:22. > :40:26.For some reason, we have done 100 performances
:40:27. > :40:29.of this particular show, I have done 100 of my other plays.
:40:30. > :40:31.For some reason, it doesn't get easier.
:40:32. > :40:33.Jesse Eisenberg, thank very much for talking to us.
:40:34. > :40:46.Earlier we heard an astonishing broadside from Sir John Major,
:40:47. > :40:48.and surely not one that Boris Johnson can dismiss.
:40:49. > :41:00.Good morning, Andrew! Dismiss it! I do dismiss it in a way, we have a
:41:01. > :41:05.short time to go until this referendum, and what people want to
:41:06. > :41:10.hear the arguments, and what we are setting out on the Leave side of the
:41:11. > :41:14.campaign is, I think, an agenda for the Government to take back control
:41:15. > :41:19.on June the 23rd of a lot of things that really mattered to the people
:41:20. > :41:23.of this country. So yes, the money, not an insignificant sum, yes,
:41:24. > :41:27.borders, but also very important aspects of our economic life that
:41:28. > :41:32.invisibly we can no longer control. We want to take them back, we think
:41:33. > :41:36.it would be great for our country and democracy. I want to get onto
:41:37. > :41:40.the details later, if I may, but nonetheless Sir John, following
:41:41. > :41:45.Chris Patten, Michael Heseltine and others, they have all had a really
:41:46. > :41:52.personal go at you. Are they trying to take you out? Whether it is or
:41:53. > :41:57.not, I am with John MacDonald this morning... Really?! Unlikely! He
:41:58. > :42:02.says there is too much of the blue on blue action, and he wants to hear
:42:03. > :42:07.the arguments. Let's go back to the money side, if we take back control
:42:08. > :42:14.of the money, we talked about 350 million, we heard that the figure is
:42:15. > :42:22.fictitious. Not true, imagine I give you... I take out of my wallet and
:42:23. > :42:28.give you ?350, I gave you ?350. And I give you back 80. And next year,
:42:29. > :42:39.hang on, you give me back 60 or so, then you decided that you were going
:42:40. > :42:43.to spend some of it on my behalf... On a haircut! Your priorities, they
:42:44. > :42:46.may not be my priority is! You decide to spend on what you think
:42:47. > :42:52.are good things for me, then you give about half of it away and we
:42:53. > :42:58.never saw it ever again. I think most reasonable people... But you
:42:59. > :43:02.have not lost ?350 at that point. Most people would say we have lost
:43:03. > :43:09.control of the 350 million, and it is totally wrong. We get a lot back,
:43:10. > :43:13.farmers, universities, lots of organisations in the country, money
:43:14. > :43:21.comes back to them. The point we are making is that we would have a lot
:43:22. > :43:26.more back, ?10.6 billion a year back, and all we are suggesting,
:43:27. > :43:29.humbly and respectfully to the Government, is that, yes, they could
:43:30. > :43:35.spend that on one nation policies for the good of this country, such
:43:36. > :43:39.as on the National Health Service, such as on cutting VAT on the cost
:43:40. > :43:43.of fuel for elderly people, which is a huge burden, and which we
:43:44. > :43:47.currently cannot do because of our membership of the EU. Invisibly,
:43:48. > :43:52.many aspects of our life are now controlled from the EU, from abroad,
:43:53. > :43:57.from Brussels, in a way that I think is anti-democratic. At the heart of
:43:58. > :44:01.this campaign, coming to the second big charge against us, which is that
:44:02. > :44:05.we are talking too much about immigration and all that, for me, it
:44:06. > :44:09.is a question of democracy, about public consent. Explaining to people
:44:10. > :44:14.that at the moment we have no power to control our immigration policy.
:44:15. > :44:18.Quickfire question, do you want to see immigration come down? I would
:44:19. > :44:23.like a situation where the Government was able to fulfil its
:44:24. > :44:27.pledges to the people. If it is going to say that immigration is
:44:28. > :44:30.going to come down to the tens of thousands, net immigration down to
:44:31. > :44:36.the tens of thousands from the EU, then it should be in a legal
:44:37. > :44:41.position to deliver that. At the moment,... Not quite the question I
:44:42. > :44:46.asked. Thes was yes, I will tell you why, because I think if you look at
:44:47. > :44:56.the figures last week, we had a net increase of 330,000, 270,000 from
:44:57. > :45:02.the EU, 184,000 net, a city the size of Oxford, from the EU. Now, the
:45:03. > :45:05.question that the Remain campaign have do answer is, what is their
:45:06. > :45:09.long-term vision? What is their programme for the country if the
:45:10. > :45:14.numbers continue at this rate? Because at the moment, if we grow
:45:15. > :45:19.the size of a city like Newcastle every year, we will see our
:45:20. > :45:23.population rise inexorably to about 70 or 80 million. Now, what the
:45:24. > :45:28.Remain campaign have to say is, what is their vision for this? It may be
:45:29. > :45:31.a great vision for Britain, by the way, it may be a positive thing, but
:45:32. > :45:35.where are they going to build the homes? What is going to happen to
:45:36. > :45:38.the green belt? How will it work for schools and hospitals and all the
:45:39. > :45:42.public services that will be affected? We are not hearing
:45:43. > :45:47.anything, any description of how this is supposed to work in the
:45:48. > :45:52.absence of control. What we are saying is that, on day one post June
:45:53. > :45:56.the 23rd, you take back control of that, but also of loads of the
:45:57. > :46:06.management of our economy. We had some disagreement about the
:46:07. > :46:11.single market, I said to Michael Gove, after Brexit, will you be in
:46:12. > :46:13.the European single market, he said no.
:46:14. > :46:18.He was right. Let me explain. I remember we both
:46:19. > :46:25.covered the dawn of the single market, the joyous moment.
:46:26. > :46:30.One of the stunning things is in need 20 years since the creation of
:46:31. > :46:36.the 1992 single market, there were 27 other countries not in the EU who
:46:37. > :46:41.have done better than the UK at exporting into the single market
:46:42. > :46:46.goods, and 21 countries who have done better at exporting services,
:46:47. > :46:50.in which we sell, into the single market.
:46:51. > :46:57.Why is that? One of the reasons is that this country, we are members of
:46:58. > :47:06.the single market, we are caught in the toils of regulation, at a rate
:47:07. > :47:09.of 2500 a year from the EU, costing ?600 million to our business is a
:47:10. > :47:13.week. The whole programme is one of the
:47:14. > :47:20.factors making the EU the slowest growing continent on earth apart
:47:21. > :47:28.from Antarctica. The single market you said leaving
:47:29. > :47:33.it would cause business uncertainty. Use the image of the Nikkei swoop.
:47:34. > :47:40.I haven't used that image. What I accept is a hockey stick
:47:41. > :47:45.might be good. But it still goes down first.
:47:46. > :47:53.If you study a hockey stick you will see it doesn't go down.
:47:54. > :47:58.After leaving the single currency, there would be a downward shock, you
:47:59. > :48:02.can call it a blip, we can discuss how long or big it is but we would
:48:03. > :48:07.go down a bit. It is telling you used the word
:48:08. > :48:10.single currency, we didn't join the single currency, people prophesied
:48:11. > :48:16.doom if we did. The British economy powered on.
:48:17. > :48:21.I meant single market. That goes to the heart of the current
:48:22. > :48:26.protestations of gloom. They were wrong then and now. The
:48:27. > :48:33.authorities I am inclined to listen to are the head of the remain
:48:34. > :48:35.campaign, Lord rose of Marks Spencer who went before the Treasury
:48:36. > :48:38.Select Committee and who was very clear.
:48:39. > :48:44.He said there would be no shock. What would happen, there was one
:48:45. > :48:49.economic prediction, he said that wages for the low-paid would go up.
:48:50. > :48:54.That for my money is a good idea. If you look at our country, and I
:48:55. > :48:59.don't think people are aware of the differential is opening up between
:49:00. > :49:04.the pay of the FTSE 100 chiefs who are parading through Downing Street
:49:05. > :49:09.and urging us all to remain in the EU, and the average pay of people.
:49:10. > :49:13.I think he was right. The second authority is the Prime Minister who
:49:14. > :49:20.was in this chair. But you don't trust him.
:49:21. > :49:24.You say he is untrustworthy. You say he is dodgy Dave, and trustworthy.
:49:25. > :49:32.You are putting words into my mouth. What he said to you then, that a lot
:49:33. > :49:37.of people were scaremongering, there was all sorts of thought how Britain
:49:38. > :49:42.could manage on its own, but Britain could prosper outside the EU. And
:49:43. > :49:48.there would be no difficulty doing free trade deals. One of the things
:49:49. > :49:53.we are seeing today is actually you would be able to do free trade deals
:49:54. > :49:59.according to the European Commission statistics, not fantasy, free trade
:50:00. > :50:05.deals generating 300,000 jobs. Let me show you this.
:50:06. > :50:10.One of your campaigns, you can't trust David Cameron on immigration.
:50:11. > :50:16.On Turkey. The first time I have seen that.
:50:17. > :50:19.Do you disavow it? The first time I have seen it. How
:50:20. > :50:26.do you feel about it? I would put it in my own language,
:50:27. > :50:33.my own language would be that, by the way I backed David Cameron in
:50:34. > :50:36.2005 as the best man for the job as he is now.
:50:37. > :50:41.What is true is if you tell people you can cut immigration to the tens
:50:42. > :50:46.of thousands, and we all stand on that manifesto.
:50:47. > :50:52.Corrosive public trust was your phrase. Exactly what I am going to
:50:53. > :50:56.say. If you are unable legally to deliver what you have pledged
:50:57. > :51:02.because of our membership of the EU, I would be frustrated. People want
:51:03. > :51:06.an answer. What we want to hear, we are all convicted of the same crime
:51:07. > :51:09.by that token because all Conservatives stood on that
:51:10. > :51:15.manifesto. We all thought we were going to get reform of the EU, as a
:51:16. > :51:18.result of the renegotiation, to adjust our immigration policies so
:51:19. > :51:22.that we would be able to cope with that.
:51:23. > :51:27.We didn't get a sausage, we didn't get anything in that renegotiation,
:51:28. > :51:33.we weren't able to do change it. So, what I really want to hear from
:51:34. > :51:35.the remain campaign is how they see this thing going.
:51:36. > :51:43.Contrary to what we have been hearing just now, the eurozone is
:51:44. > :51:52.still mired in catastrophic, 51% youth unemployment in Rees, 45%
:51:53. > :51:56.youth and implement in Spain. It is an abomination.
:51:57. > :51:58.Eventually, it will get out of that and the migratory pressure on our
:51:59. > :52:05.shores will ease. We have seen no sign over the last
:52:06. > :52:09.ten years, 20 years. We have seen a steady increase in migratory
:52:10. > :52:12.pressure. What will happen unquestionably, it
:52:13. > :52:19.is conceptually, you remember this from when we first covered this. The
:52:20. > :52:23.ideology of the EU is to think of the difference between the furthest
:52:24. > :52:30.reaches of the Balkans, Iberia Italy, as being no different from
:52:31. > :52:37.Britain, than say sorry and Lancashire. It is all one territory
:52:38. > :52:43.throughout which they want people to circulate totally freely. I don't
:52:44. > :52:48.think that is feasible in circumstances where you have got
:52:49. > :52:57.real economic crisis caused by the euros and across Europe.
:52:58. > :53:00.Fearing towards the big picture, isn't it abominable to compare what
:53:01. > :53:10.the EU as it is today, with Hitler, don't you regret that?
:53:11. > :53:16.Strong nation states, we were drawn in again. The EU was set up to stop
:53:17. > :53:21.that. We have lived through a period of peace which the EU had to be
:53:22. > :53:28.given credit for. I don't write headlines. The key
:53:29. > :53:33.point I would make is there is something worryingly anti democratic
:53:34. > :53:39.about the EU as it is set up. I do think that it should concern
:53:40. > :53:44.everyone in this country that 60% of our laws come from Brussels, primary
:53:45. > :53:49.and secondary legislation, together. It should concern everybody that,
:53:50. > :53:54.since the Lisbon Treaty, we have been outvoted more and more often.
:53:55. > :53:59.There are fundamental ways now in which we cannot control our lives. I
:54:00. > :54:07.mentioned the money, immigration policy, VAT.
:54:08. > :54:13.Can I show you this poster. Turkey is joining the EU, is that true?
:54:14. > :54:18.That is the governments policy. The Government would like it too at some
:54:19. > :54:24.point in the future. This is a statement, is that true?
:54:25. > :54:27.Turkey has been joining the EU since 1963.
:54:28. > :54:32.But it is not true, that is what John Major was talking about.
:54:33. > :54:37.I don't mind whether Turkey joins the EU provided the UK leads the EU.
:54:38. > :54:44.That is where I am on this matter. I am very pro-Turk. I am very proud
:54:45. > :54:49.of my Turkish ancestry. You always wanted Turkey to join the
:54:50. > :54:54.EU for historical reasons, and that great gap between Eastern and
:54:55. > :55:00.Western Roman empires. That was back in the days when some
:55:01. > :55:06.of us, perhaps John Major himself, thought that widening the EU would
:55:07. > :55:08.not mean this federalising, centralising, deepening process we
:55:09. > :55:12.have seen. The really disappointing thing was
:55:13. > :55:17.the Lisbon Treaty... Let us not talk about this, I want
:55:18. > :55:21.to talk about Turkey. I think the EU has changed out of
:55:22. > :55:28.all recognition since people like me started advocating...
:55:29. > :55:30.Let us not talk about back in the day.
:55:31. > :55:34.Two months ago you said there was no prospect of Turkey joining the EU,
:55:35. > :55:41.you said it was between zero and 20% or less than that. No prospect. Now
:55:42. > :55:46.your response to this poster is that Turkey is joining the EU.
:55:47. > :55:53.That is the Government policy. It is something they have said is their
:55:54. > :55:57.number one priority and paved the way between Brussels and Ankara,
:55:58. > :56:02.they are also think it might be achieved until the year 3000. They
:56:03. > :56:08.can't be... It is hogwash.
:56:09. > :56:12.I believe it is Government policy. If that means it is hogwash. If the
:56:13. > :56:16.poster said it is gone a pussy that Turkey at some stage should join the
:56:17. > :56:20.EU, that would be true. Turkey is joining the EU is not true.
:56:21. > :56:28.It is Government policy that Turkish membership should be accelerated.
:56:29. > :56:33.I am signed, it is Government policy that Turkish membership of the EU
:56:34. > :56:39.should be speeded up. There are clips of the Prime
:56:40. > :56:42.Minister in Ankara advocating the speeding up of this.
:56:43. > :56:47.In the heat of the campaign, you particularly have gone a bit wild,
:56:48. > :56:54.that is not true, that poster, 350 million, which is not the case. Both
:56:55. > :56:58.sides are doing this, post-truth politics...
:56:59. > :57:03.I wondered if you would say that. ?350 million is genuine a reasonable
:57:04. > :57:09.figure for reasons I have explained. If I give you ?350 and you spent...
:57:10. > :57:17.This is money we can't control. A lot of it, you spend some of my
:57:18. > :57:22.money on I been bull-fighting which is not what I want.
:57:23. > :57:26.From the outside, the Conservative Party is falling apart. You are
:57:27. > :57:35.saying the Prime Minister is untrustworthy.
:57:36. > :57:38.Can this party he put together again, how do respond to John
:57:39. > :57:42.Major's suggestion you were doing this for personal ambition. Used to
:57:43. > :57:46.be in favour of joining the EU, now you have decided this is the best
:57:47. > :57:52.way to Downing Street? Nonsense. There will be temptation
:57:53. > :57:57.by one side or the other, particularly the remain camp, to
:57:58. > :58:00.turn it into a personality driven connotation.
:58:01. > :58:03.My view on the EU has changed because the EU has changed out of
:58:04. > :58:07.all recognition. It is now totally different from
:58:08. > :58:16.what we signed up to in 1972. It is turning into a federation.
:58:17. > :58:18.Thank you very much. We have run out of time.
:58:19. > :58:29.Join us live from Brunel University where we are debating why white
:58:30. > :58:35.working-class boys are at the bottom of the heap. Foreign aid, should the
:58:36. > :58:37.UK commitment to giving 0.7% of our national income be scrapped? That's
:58:38. > :58:39.at 10am on BBC One. That's all we have time for,
:58:40. > :58:42.thanks to all my guests. Andrew Neil will be talking Europe
:58:43. > :58:47.with Labour's John Prescott I'll be back at the
:58:48. > :58:56.usual time next week. My guest then will include Ukip
:58:57. > :58:59.leader Nigel Farage. Until then, have a very
:59:00. > :59:05.good morning, goodbye!