:00:00. > :00:00.The brutal killing of MP Jo Cox has shocked the nation and paused
:00:07. > :00:09.the referendum debate, just days before voting.
:00:10. > :00:12.Had we become, on all sides, simply too angry
:00:13. > :00:19.This morning, the big question about our national future returns,
:00:20. > :00:41.with perhaps, we'll see, a rather different tone.
:00:42. > :00:45.My guests today include the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,
:00:46. > :00:48.and the joint leader of the Leave campaign, the Justice
:00:49. > :00:57.Two more politicians in our papers review this morning -
:00:58. > :00:59.Conservative Remainer and unlikely king of Twitter Sir Nicholas Soames.
:01:00. > :01:04.And the leading Out campaigner Labour's Kate Hoey.
:01:05. > :01:08.And we're joined too by the Sun's star columnist Jane Moore.
:01:09. > :01:11.Plus, music from one of the hottest young stars in Britain,
:01:12. > :01:25.But first, the news, with Steph McGovern.
:01:26. > :01:29.Two special church services will be held at Birstall in West Yorkshire
:01:30. > :01:31.this morning to remember the local MP Jo Cox,
:01:32. > :01:35.Thomas Mair, who is accused of her murder, appeared
:01:36. > :01:38.in court in London yesterday and was remanded in custody.
:01:39. > :01:39.He will appear at the Old Bailey tomorrow.
:01:40. > :01:54.A day of remembrance ahead for this village in West Yorkshire.
:01:55. > :01:57.Three days after the killing of the Labour MP Jo Cox,
:01:58. > :02:00.campaigning in the EU referendum has started up again.
:02:01. > :02:02.The Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, who wants to leave,
:02:03. > :02:04.insists Britain could be a "progressive beacon"
:02:05. > :02:09.David Cameron has urged voters to reject Nigel Farage's vision
:02:10. > :02:13.for the country which, he claimed, would "divide rather than unite".
:02:14. > :02:16.Health unions have written to David Cameron urging him not
:02:17. > :02:20.to scrap nursing and midwifery bursaries in England.
:02:21. > :02:23.The Government says that replacing grants with student loans
:02:24. > :02:26.will provide funding for many more training places.
:02:27. > :02:30.But the Royal College of Nursing says that the plans would be
:02:31. > :02:42.a "reckless gamble" with the future of the NHS workforce.
:02:43. > :02:49.A day of remembrance ahead for this village in West Yorkshire.
:02:50. > :02:52.Later this morning, church services will
:02:53. > :02:55.be held and a book of condolences opened for those who wish to
:02:56. > :02:59.to pay their respects for Jo Cox, who was killed on Thursday, as she
:03:00. > :03:04.made her way here, to her constituency surgery.
:03:05. > :03:08.Yesterday, the MP's family, surrounded by the
:03:09. > :03:11.people of Birstall, came to the place where she was attacked.
:03:12. > :03:13.Her sister, Kim Leadbeater, said Jo would never
:03:14. > :03:21.She will live on through all the good people in the world.
:03:22. > :03:26.Through Brendan, through us, and through her
:03:27. > :03:30.truly wonderful children, who will always know what an utterly
:03:31. > :03:38.She was a human being and she was perfect.
:03:39. > :03:43.People have been reacting to the 41-year-old's death across
:03:44. > :03:48.A fund set up in her name has already raised hundreds of thousands
:03:49. > :03:52.Meanwhile, yesterday, the man accused of killing the MP,
:03:53. > :04:01.When asked his name, he replied, "death to
:04:02. > :04:05.He is also charged with grievous bodily
:04:06. > :04:08.harm against a 77-year-old man who came to her aid
:04:09. > :04:12.The 52-year-old was remanded in custody and will appear
:04:13. > :04:18.There have been disturbances in the Turkish city of Istanbul,
:04:19. > :04:20.following an attack on fans of the British rock band Radiohead.
:04:21. > :04:23.Police used tear gas to disperse hundreds of people protesting
:04:24. > :04:30.The fans, who had gathered at a music store to listen
:04:31. > :04:34.to the band's latest album, were reportedly targeted
:04:35. > :04:35.for drinking alcohol and playing music during Ramadan.
:04:36. > :04:58.Those words by the murdered MP's sister, she was perfect, dominate
:04:59. > :05:01.some of the papers. Because of legal problems, cannot talk much about
:05:02. > :05:12.this, so you will have to forgive us. This one, like a lot of the
:05:13. > :05:20.Sunday papers, finally make up -- makes up its mind on Europe. The
:05:21. > :05:27.Sunday Times, slightly hedging its bets, you might think, with David,
:05:28. > :05:35.talking about the dangers of leaving. Michael Gove has given
:05:36. > :05:41.interviews in lots of the papers, and we will be talking to him later
:05:42. > :05:44.on. And there's Jo Cox's parents- we know there are some some evil people
:05:45. > :05:51.in this world, but there are an awful lot of good people, too. .
:05:52. > :05:56.Looking at the opinion polls, this does in deed appear to be the case,
:05:57. > :06:02.Britain split down the middle. You met Jo Cox a few times? Only
:06:03. > :06:06.slightly. I met her as a colleague, really, in the lobbies. And I think
:06:07. > :06:10.Kate was in the same position. We knew her as a new member of
:06:11. > :06:15.Parliament. I was most impressed by her ability to work across the
:06:16. > :06:19.issues, cross-party, like Kate and I have done on immigration and other
:06:20. > :06:23.matters. If you want to get anything done in the House of Commons, you
:06:24. > :06:30.have to work cross-party, and she was a doer. I loved the story by
:06:31. > :06:33.Andrew Mitchell, in the Telegraph, saying that he took her to talk to
:06:34. > :06:38.the Russian ambassador, to talk about Syria, and she gave the
:06:39. > :06:44.Russian ambassador what for and he was doubly chastened. And he is a
:06:45. > :06:49.tough guy. Yes, and she gave him what for. I am very taken by the
:06:50. > :06:57.last article she wrote, which the Mail on Sunday reprints today in
:06:58. > :07:00.which she talks very eloquently about the Remain campaign. That was
:07:01. > :07:04.the context in which I met her. We were both members of the cross-party
:07:05. > :07:07.Remain campaign. I think she writes very powerfully and knowledgeably
:07:08. > :07:12.about the migrants and the need to curb migrants, but also to do it in
:07:13. > :07:15.a sensible and humane way. And of course her husband has pick up the
:07:16. > :07:20.torch and is tweeting and writing everywhere as well. What was
:07:21. > :07:22.remarkable, having only been a member of Parliament for such a
:07:23. > :07:29.short time, she was so well-known for the causes that she was working
:07:30. > :07:34.cross-party on. And I think also, what has come through very much, and
:07:35. > :07:41.I think all MPs will be so touched by that, the effect within her own
:07:42. > :07:45.constituency of her own constituents and the help that she had given
:07:46. > :07:51.them. It is one area of MPs' lives which can get ignored by the media,
:07:52. > :07:56.that day today, we are all doing I think pretty good work. But she
:07:57. > :08:01.particularly seems to have done that in that short time. She was from the
:08:02. > :08:05.area, it was her home area. I think the papers have all done some
:08:06. > :08:09.wonderful tributes to her. It is interesting, Sir Nicholas was saying
:08:10. > :08:12.that she was a cross-party kind of MP. And she has got cross-party
:08:13. > :08:18.tributes, from right across the press. Absolutely. As you just said,
:08:19. > :08:23.she was perfect. It is the whole thing off, she was a human being.
:08:24. > :08:28.How her sister stood up and made that speech, all credit to her.
:08:29. > :08:32.Absolutely incredible. You just look at what happens when somebody... It
:08:33. > :08:38.is about their parents, their siblings, their children. But as you
:08:39. > :08:44.rightly say, Kate, the constituents. And these pictures of the sea of
:08:45. > :08:51.flowers, and when she was first killed, the reporters, who normally
:08:52. > :09:01.they do vox pops of people on the streets, people were actually
:09:02. > :09:07.crying. And they all had personal stories of how she had helped them.
:09:08. > :09:10.People think Westminster is full of career politicians who have no...
:09:11. > :09:14.There is a lot of abuse of politicians. And I think Jo Cox and
:09:15. > :09:18.her tragic story has highlighted that there are a lot of on the
:09:19. > :09:25.ground MPs, doing the job as it should be done. Sir Nicholas, have
:09:26. > :09:30.you noticed an additional aggression in recent years towards MPs, and how
:09:31. > :09:34.do you deal with it? You need want to go out and meet your
:09:35. > :09:38.constituents, you do not want to be surrounded by police or whatever. We
:09:39. > :09:44.shall go on with our surgeries as we have always done. Nevertheless, I
:09:45. > :09:51.think it is an important point - the job of the MP in the constituency is
:09:52. > :09:56.to be round and about, and constantly so. Despite what you
:09:57. > :09:59.would think, MPs are astonishingly accessible, at any time. But it has
:10:00. > :10:04.changed, the public debate has coarsened, and there are a whole lot
:10:05. > :10:07.of events which led up to that. It is now much rougher than it was. It
:10:08. > :10:15.has always been a rough trade, Dubai to Hogarth. But it is now much more
:10:16. > :10:20.vicious. Particularly so, for women. There was something in the Telegraph
:10:21. > :10:24.yesterday listing the threats, and rape threats, made against women MPs
:10:25. > :10:29.on all sides. Yes, and that is a result of social media, because it
:10:30. > :10:36.is so instant. Somebody says something, and everybody else joins
:10:37. > :10:38.in. Personally I just ignore things which come through, unless it is
:10:39. > :10:45.something which is really, really threatening. Not just women MPs, TV
:10:46. > :10:48.presenters, journalists... Anyone in public life. Look at the way our
:10:49. > :10:55.nurses, our schoolteachers, I sometimes threatened. It is a
:10:56. > :11:00.general coarsening of the public... In the Sunday Telegraph, James
:11:01. > :11:06.Kirchhoff saying that this is going to divide the country further, he
:11:07. > :11:11.thinks. Well, he's trying to move on from that, saying there will be a
:11:12. > :11:17.lot of people for different reasons trying to link this with the
:11:18. > :11:20.referendum. And I think this piece by James Kirkup is saying that it is
:11:21. > :11:27.very, very important what happens after Thursday, that the tone of the
:11:28. > :11:32.debate is kept in a way that people will not afterwards be able to work
:11:33. > :11:37.together. He says the one certainty about the political consequences of
:11:38. > :11:41.Jo Cox's awful death, the more it is linked into the referendum debate
:11:42. > :11:45.are the harder it will be for people divided by that referendum to come
:11:46. > :11:50.back together afterwards. I think that is really important. It is all
:11:51. > :11:54.about tone? It is, and about people respecting other people's views,
:11:55. > :11:58.even if they do not like them. Sir Nicholas, talking of which, Michael
:11:59. > :12:02.Gove and yourself do not exactly share the same views as you on the
:12:03. > :12:06.EU, but here's one of the most courteous men in British politics.
:12:07. > :12:10.He is also a great friend, and I have great respect for him. There
:12:11. > :12:13.are very profound views on both sides of this argument, that's why
:12:14. > :12:20.it is so difficult for people to come to a conclusion. I take issue
:12:21. > :12:23.only with his... He has written an interview in the Telegraph today,
:12:24. > :12:28.Michael Gove, in which he says that a post-Brexit return you would be a
:12:29. > :12:32.beacon of light. Well, I think Britain is a beacon of light
:12:33. > :12:35.already. I think it is a begin of light, hope, internationalism and
:12:36. > :12:39.diversity. I think people have always wanted to come here and they
:12:40. > :12:43.always will. I don't think this is something related to Brexit or
:12:44. > :12:48.non-Brexit. I think Britain has been a beacon of hope for generations. I
:12:49. > :12:51.hope that when people make their minds up, they will consider that it
:12:52. > :12:55.is a finely balanced argument, but it is not a new argument. You get
:12:56. > :12:58.people saying to you that you are dishonouring the memory of your
:12:59. > :13:03.grandfather, Sir Winston Churchill, by staying on the soccer lick side.
:13:04. > :13:08.Have you found it pretty heated? I have found it very heated. People
:13:09. > :13:12.say, your grandfather would be turning in his grave. How on earth
:13:13. > :13:17.do they know? It is 50 years since he died. He started his public life
:13:18. > :13:21.charging on a horse with a sword and ended up as Prime Minister ushering
:13:22. > :13:25.in the nuclear age. It was likely that his views changed very
:13:26. > :13:28.substantially over that period of time, and between then and now, I
:13:29. > :13:34.cannot believe that he would not have a very different view possibly
:13:35. > :13:37.on what he thought 80 years ago on the potential European Union. So it
:13:38. > :13:42.is very difficult to say. On the other side of the argument, we have
:13:43. > :13:50.got David Cameron, and object, self-imposed human nation awaits...?
:13:51. > :13:56.Yes, but actually... I think, to be fair, he probably did not write the
:13:57. > :14:01.headline! Following on from what Nicholas said, the language is so
:14:02. > :14:06.important. He has said all the usual things which he has been saying. But
:14:07. > :14:11.I picked out that he said, there is not one credible voice which it says
:14:12. > :14:14.Britain, I think he means the United Kingdom, would be better off for
:14:15. > :14:19.opting to leave the United Kingdom. Is he really saying that those four
:14:20. > :14:24.or five members of his Cabinet, who are talking about how we could do so
:14:25. > :14:29.well outside the EU, and how it would be much more democratic, is he
:14:30. > :14:32.saying that they are not credible? I think this is a last-gasp attempt by
:14:33. > :14:39.the Prime Minister, in a language, I have to say, much less strident than
:14:40. > :14:45.he has been doing recently... The language is changing. The language
:14:46. > :14:49.is changing, but here still wrong. He is referring to the Governor of
:14:50. > :14:54.the Bank of England, the IMF, and that these views cannot be
:14:55. > :15:07.dismissed. I am in a perfect position on this sofa. We have an
:15:08. > :15:12.authentic ditherer. I am! I read an article which says we should remain,
:15:13. > :15:18.and I go, yes! And then I read an article... I got hundreds of e-mails
:15:19. > :15:22.from people saying, they are also undecided. We never talk about the
:15:23. > :15:26.don't knows. But there's million is of you. I think there's lots of
:15:27. > :15:40.bashful Brexit is! This is Donald Trump. He has given
:15:41. > :15:50.an interview to the Sunday Times. He has said he will talk to him and
:15:51. > :15:55.Putin, you will talk to them all. Everything he is asked, I think he
:15:56. > :16:01.has had media training. He has become very measured and not
:16:02. > :16:04.pejorative at all. Asked about the view of David Cameron where he said
:16:05. > :16:10.he was divisive, stupid and wrong in saying he was going to ban all
:16:11. > :16:14.Muslims from coming into America. His reply was, I respect David
:16:15. > :16:20.Cameron. He does not know me. I respect what he has done and what he
:16:21. > :16:26.is doing. I imagine I would have a very good relationship with him if I
:16:27. > :16:35.were successful. Sir Nicolas Adams has been looking at China Daily on
:16:36. > :16:49.his iPad. -- Sir Nicolas Soames. There was an interview. He became a
:16:50. > :16:53.Member of Parliament in 1976. He has been around the track on all sorts
:16:54. > :16:59.of occasions. He is a staunch, pro-European supporter of great
:17:00. > :17:03.experience. In his piece to the china Daily come he is talking that
:17:04. > :17:08.the complexities of trade with China and the point that, whatever one
:17:09. > :17:12.says of the rights and wrongs in this argument, putting together a
:17:13. > :17:17.trade deal with anyone is not easy. Making the point that to put a trade
:17:18. > :17:20.deal with Britain alone with China will be very complicated. The
:17:21. > :17:26.notable point is he has finally announced he is going and that will
:17:27. > :17:32.be a big loss to Parliament. A big, clever, experienced man. Let's talk
:17:33. > :17:38.about another clever and experienced man, Tim Peake, who has fallen to
:17:39. > :17:44.earth. If you had spent the amount of time in space he had, it eat in
:17:45. > :17:49.air dried food with boiling water poured on them, what would you crave
:17:50. > :17:54.most? The me, it will be a juicy steak with a glass of red wine.
:17:55. > :18:00.Apparently he has been craving pizza. And a beer. I'm with him on
:18:01. > :18:08.the nice, cold beer that not the pizza. Earlier, this morning, I told
:18:09. > :18:12.the man who had been on the shuttle, an American spacemen. He had been
:18:13. > :18:16.dreaming about eating salad. That really is not much to look forward
:18:17. > :18:20.to. I love that he landed in the first thing he said, which was
:18:21. > :18:25.really charming, the fresh air. Smelling the flowers and the fresh
:18:26. > :18:30.air. After being six months in a space craft, it must be an
:18:31. > :18:34.extraordinary moment. The effect of gravity wearing off must be quite a
:18:35. > :18:43.thing and he is on the way back to see his family now. He has got back
:18:44. > :18:47.just on time for Father's Day. There is a short article in the Sunday
:18:48. > :18:51.express written by Prince William, the Duke of Cambridge. He is talking
:18:52. > :18:56.about celebrating his third Father's Day as a dad. It is an interesting
:18:57. > :19:01.article because he talks quite strongly against. It shows his real
:19:02. > :19:07.determination to keep pushing the whole question of mental health and
:19:08. > :19:12.the idea, the importance of having more resources into that whole area.
:19:13. > :19:16.That will strike a chord with a lot of people. He is also pointing out
:19:17. > :19:21.that dad is a very important. For some young men I see in my
:19:22. > :19:28.constituency, sometimes young men feel devalued. They feel no one
:19:29. > :19:34.really is interested in them. Sarah Baxter, rather movingly in the
:19:35. > :19:38.Sunday Times. It is a fantastic piece which is quite curious. She
:19:39. > :19:42.starts off by saying he was not around much because my parents split
:19:43. > :19:50.up when I was nine and his job as a pilot took him away. She doesn't go
:19:51. > :19:58.one to say... He had a belief in hand, that was the point. Her mother
:19:59. > :20:03.played a very strong roll as well. I did not have a father figure in my
:20:04. > :20:09.life. Single parents of either gender can do both. My husband has a
:20:10. > :20:16.very strong relationship with our children and I do think, you know,
:20:17. > :20:21.fathers are very, very important. The son of Leonard Cohen was saying,
:20:22. > :20:26.what he valued about his father was he made a very good tuna salad. I
:20:27. > :20:34.hope when I go, my kids will say, he made quite a good salad. Two
:20:35. > :20:42.mentions of salad in the paper review. He would have thought? Are
:20:43. > :20:46.you going to get a monstrous cake? If my children remember. After all
:20:47. > :20:51.the publicity there has been, I hope they will. Thanks to you all.
:20:52. > :20:54.Lovely this morning but what a grim old summer it's been so far.
:20:55. > :20:57.I'm just a simple soul, who sits here patiently week after week
:20:58. > :21:00.waiting for Peter Gibbs to bring me some happy news.
:21:01. > :21:11.If you do not have any good news, make it up.
:21:12. > :21:18.The sun is shining at the moment across the east of Scotland. A
:21:19. > :21:22.beautiful start to the day. It will not last. Rain clouds are gathering
:21:23. > :21:26.in the West. The rain is beginning to moving across Northern Ireland
:21:27. > :21:29.and it will spread into Scotland, Wales and the western side of
:21:30. > :21:34.England by the afternoon. It means we hang on to a bit of sunshine. The
:21:35. > :21:40.easternmost counties of England in particular. Much warmer than
:21:41. > :21:48.yesterday, up to 21, 22 in Norfolk. The high teens at best weather wind
:21:49. > :21:50.and rain is piling in further west. The rain will continue to march
:21:51. > :21:54.eastwards overnight so we will see a spell of wet weather. It will be a
:21:55. > :22:00.fairly mild night with temperatures no lower than 14, 15 degrees. A bit
:22:01. > :22:05.of a wet start to be Day across the southern half of England and Wales a
:22:06. > :22:12.wet journey to work in many places. Sunny spells and showers following
:22:13. > :22:16.on behind. There are signs that through the middle part of the week
:22:17. > :22:21.we could see warmer, more humid air from the near continent. That could
:22:22. > :22:22.well produce thundery showers. That probably will not meet your exacting
:22:23. > :22:32.standards. The death of Jo Cox united
:22:33. > :22:34.politicians in grief, and there will be tributes
:22:35. > :22:36.to her from all sides But the paused referendum campaign
:22:37. > :22:39.is getting back How will it be conducted over these
:22:40. > :22:43.final few days? I'm joined now by the Labour
:22:44. > :22:50.leader, Jeremy Corbyn. Before we start, you obviously knew
:22:51. > :22:59.Tempra Ais a colleague. Any particular memories? -- Jo as a
:23:00. > :23:04.colleague. She was passionate about Batley and spend. She grew up in
:23:05. > :23:13.that area. I was there on Friday for a vigil. Biting memories in the
:23:14. > :23:19.condolence book in the church. -- writing memories. They were totally
:23:20. > :23:24.shocked and in grief for what happened. This was a murder of her
:23:25. > :23:28.but it was also an attack on democracy and an attack on the right
:23:29. > :23:32.of somebody to be represented to elect you and to go about their
:23:33. > :23:35.business. We should also think for a moment of the two people who
:23:36. > :23:40.intervened to try to help her. One of them is still in hospital, a
:23:41. > :23:49.retired miner who tried to protect her. He will be out soon, we hope.
:23:50. > :23:52.We have lost a great talent, someone who spoke up in Parliament for human
:23:53. > :24:02.rights, peace in Syria and so many other places. People talk a lot of
:24:03. > :24:07.the time about MPs. She was rooted in that place. She was one of
:24:08. > :24:11.theirs. The whole point of democracy and involvement, when you elect
:24:12. > :24:14.someone to a council, Member of Parliament but if you are to do your
:24:15. > :24:21.job, you cannot leave the area of the people or the place that you
:24:22. > :24:23.there. If we move our MPs into some sort of hermetically sealed
:24:24. > :24:31.container where they are shipped from place to place, then we lose
:24:32. > :24:35.everything. I love my constituency. I love my community. What I love is
:24:36. > :24:40.just walking about, chatting to people, many of whom I have known
:24:41. > :24:43.for many years. That way you pick up the reality of legislation, the
:24:44. > :24:47.reality in our case of austerity and the poverty that goes with it.
:24:48. > :24:51.You're better informed to do your job. If you are in some kind of
:24:52. > :24:56.security bubble, you very rapidly lose all of that and we have to
:24:57. > :25:00.defend that and we have to defend people against this kind of
:25:01. > :25:06.appalling attack that took place. It is not the first time. Other MPs
:25:07. > :25:10.have been assaulted. Stephen Timms was assaulted, George Galloway was
:25:11. > :25:21.assaulted. A number of others have been assaulted. Ian Gow was killed
:25:22. > :25:25.in 1990. Were you aware of the growing worry of physical attacks?
:25:26. > :25:29.The Shadow Leader of the house said he thought eventually somebody would
:25:30. > :25:34.be killed. We have talked about this and the levels of security that MPs
:25:35. > :25:38.need and want. There is a degree of fon ability. If you have an open
:25:39. > :25:43.office and an open advice bureau, which is what we all want to do. We
:25:44. > :25:48.want to see everyone, no matter how difficult their lives are. We do not
:25:49. > :25:53.want to be cut off from them. At the same time we need security of some
:25:54. > :25:59.sort to protect people. It is not just for MPs, it is for everyone.
:26:00. > :26:07.MPs just protecting themselves is of course essential and important as
:26:08. > :26:10.tragically the death of Jo showed. Everyone else needs to be protected
:26:11. > :26:16.against any kind of attack, whatever the appalling motive might be behind
:26:17. > :26:24.the attack. UN the Prime Minister were standing shoulder to shoulder.
:26:25. > :26:30.-- you and the Prime Minister. When the House of Commons regroups
:26:31. > :26:36.tomorrow, they have had comments that the parties should mingle and
:26:37. > :26:40.sit on each other's benches. We are thinking about that. Tomorrow will
:26:41. > :26:49.be a dignified occasion, not a time for lots of long speeches. It is
:26:50. > :27:00.about all MPs standing together. An MP has died. It is an attack on all
:27:01. > :27:03.of us. We have to reach out. Do you think the recent political
:27:04. > :27:10.atmosphere, the referendum or anything else can has created a more
:27:11. > :27:16.anti-MP mood? I do. I think MPs are perceived to be cut off. In reality,
:27:17. > :27:22.most are not. Decision-making is seen to be cut off and the lives of
:27:23. > :27:25.so many people, where they face housing problems, insecurity at
:27:26. > :27:30.work, falling living standards, problems where children do not get
:27:31. > :27:40.any housing, all of those issues to make people feel, hang on, what is
:27:41. > :27:44.the political situation ever doing for me? Reducing working conditions
:27:45. > :27:49.are making life more difficult for people creates a sense of anger and
:27:50. > :27:53.insecurity. What is the answer? Is the answer to kick out all get
:27:54. > :27:58.together and do something different? One thing that is going on, if we
:27:59. > :28:01.vote to leave the EU, part of the story behind that will be lots and
:28:02. > :28:04.lots of traditional Labour voters not listening to you or the party
:28:05. > :28:08.leadership on immigration are going in the direction of Ukip on
:28:09. > :28:12.immigration. Do you accept that in some sense the party has lost the
:28:13. > :28:19.day of a lot of your traditional, white working-class constituents? We
:28:20. > :28:23.have had several years of endless newspaper headlines blaming
:28:24. > :28:26.everything on migration without ever being prepared to look at the
:28:27. > :28:30.guarantee of the expectation of people in this country and across
:28:31. > :28:41.Europe. The Mike Ashley story, sports direct, Dennis Skinner made a
:28:42. > :28:45.brilliant comment, when it was a pit, people from all over Europe
:28:46. > :28:49.were working there as minors. The same conditions, the same housing,
:28:50. > :28:52.the same union. Now there are several other people working on zero
:28:53. > :28:55.hours contracts who have been shipped in from elsewhere. The
:28:56. > :28:59.answer to that is not to blame them, the answer is, guess, at one level
:29:00. > :29:02.to blame Mike Ashley but to blame the lack of regulation of working
:29:03. > :29:10.conditions both here and in other parts of Europe. The workers
:29:11. > :29:15.directive is very important. Do you think immigration should not be an
:29:16. > :29:19.issue? There are a lot of people really, really worried about the
:29:20. > :29:24.effects on school places, housing and public services and wage
:29:25. > :29:27.compression. The reality is more than 2 million British people live
:29:28. > :29:30.in Europe. Quite a lot of people from the European Union, mainly
:29:31. > :29:35.Poland, have made their homes in Britain and are working, paying
:29:36. > :29:40.taxes and all of that. The issues surely have to be to improve working
:29:41. > :29:44.conditions, improved protection is all across Europe and look at those
:29:45. > :29:48.who are making a great deal of money out of this exploitation. I mention
:29:49. > :29:54.the posting of workers directive, it also about local wages and
:29:55. > :29:58.conditions. If everybody had to be paid the relevant local rate, things
:29:59. > :30:02.would be different. A number of people coming to the country would
:30:03. > :30:10.probably be reduced. Do you think worries about immigration would
:30:11. > :30:15.reduce? I do. There has to be the reintroduction of the migrant impact
:30:16. > :30:18.fund which was introduced in 2008, which was a special payment that
:30:19. > :30:24.will go to local authorities where there have been big changes. In the
:30:25. > :30:26.same way that in the 1960s, the then Labour government introduced the
:30:27. > :30:33.Commonwealth immigration fund for the same purpose. Some groups feel
:30:34. > :30:39.they have been adversely affected. They will get more help for schools,
:30:40. > :30:44.hospital places and so on. Absolutely. It brings people
:30:45. > :30:47.together, to achieve a better society for all and recognise that
:30:48. > :30:51.we have a lot of young people studying and working in Europe, we
:30:52. > :30:55.have a lot of young Europeans working and studying here. People
:30:56. > :30:59.move around. That actually is quite good all round. It gives people a
:31:00. > :31:03.wide experience and actually helps to generate scientific research as
:31:04. > :31:05.well as employment opportunities across the whole continent. Is there
:31:06. > :31:14.an upper limit? I don't think you can have one while
:31:15. > :31:18.you have the free movement of Labour. The free movement of Labour
:31:19. > :31:21.means you have to balance the economy, so you have to improve
:31:22. > :31:25.living standards and conditions. That means the European Union's
:31:26. > :31:29.appalling treatment of Greece, particularly the European central
:31:30. > :31:33.bank as well as the European Union, that is a problem. So if you
:31:34. > :31:36.actually deliberately lower living standards and increase poverty in
:31:37. > :31:39.certain countries in south-east or Eastern Europe, then you're bound to
:31:40. > :31:46.have a flow of people looking for somewhere else to go. Surely the
:31:47. > :31:51.issue is, an and your sturdy, an growth package right across Europe.
:31:52. > :31:57.So you can call yourself unequivocally a pro-immigration
:31:58. > :32:00.politician? Brendan Cox, whose wife was killed, has said that
:32:01. > :32:03.politicians at the top have been far too feeble in making the case for
:32:04. > :32:07.immigration. They have allowed the argument to be made by the far
:32:08. > :32:12.right. I spoke to Brendan last night and we were talking about this whole
:32:13. > :32:16.issue, that the far right have been allowed to grasp the agenda. Nigel
:32:17. > :32:18.Farage for example puts up that appalling poster, which has a
:32:19. > :32:22.picture of a lot of desperate he pulled fleeing from war, saying,
:32:23. > :32:27.they are coming to threaten us. Hello jigger I think Williams called
:32:28. > :32:31.it right this morning when he said, we have to play our part in dealing
:32:32. > :32:36.with the refugee crisis, all of us. It is a humanitarian crisis. But
:32:37. > :32:40.there are lots and lots and lots of people around this country who do
:32:41. > :32:44.feel that immigration is a problem for them. They feel their community
:32:45. > :32:48.is changing very quickly, they feel their identity is challenged. They
:32:49. > :32:51.are not racists, not far right people, just people really worried
:32:52. > :32:56.about immigration. They feel that people like you are not listening to
:32:57. > :33:01.them. I am not calling them racists. What I am saying is, it is a failure
:33:02. > :33:05.of our government not to fund local authorities, not to provide housing
:33:06. > :33:09.for people, and for the first time in 25 in 30 years, attacking school
:33:10. > :33:13.budgets. It is that which is the problem, and they should turn their
:33:14. > :33:16.anger against this government and the austerity which has been put
:33:17. > :33:21.forward by Cameron and Osborne over the past six years. Your deputy, Tom
:33:22. > :33:25.Watson, has said there has to be an end put to the free movement of
:33:26. > :33:29.people, there has to be limits on migration - do you agree with him?
:33:30. > :33:34.Tom and I had a chat about this. All of us are agreed that there has to
:33:35. > :33:38.be a greater equality of working conditions. There has to be the
:33:39. > :33:41.prevention of undercutting. There has to be an end to the idea of a
:33:42. > :33:45.race to the bottom in working conditions. At the end of the day,
:33:46. > :33:50.workers working alongside each other should be treated the same and have
:33:51. > :33:54.the same rights. They should be paid the same. They don't, at the moment.
:33:55. > :33:59.There are people watching right now who say, here is someone who is in
:34:00. > :34:04.favour of uncontrolled immigration - that terrifies me. Those people now
:34:05. > :34:08.have no choice but to vote to leave the EU. There is no uncontrolled
:34:09. > :34:12.immigration. There is free movement of people across the EU, which goes
:34:13. > :34:16.both ways. More than 2 million British people are living in Europe.
:34:17. > :34:20.It goes both ways. There's uncontrolled immigration from
:34:21. > :34:25.outside Europe, and there has been certainly ever since the 1960s in
:34:26. > :34:31.quite a severe form. I represent a very mixed constituency, where there
:34:32. > :34:33.are great problems of getting family reunion, and there are not equal
:34:34. > :34:38.rights for people coming from Europe. They do not get benefits
:34:39. > :34:42.immediately, they do not get access to housing immediately. It is not
:34:43. > :34:46.totally uncontrolled. But in terms of EU migration, there is no way of
:34:47. > :34:50.a British Government controlling that, and therefore, people worried
:34:51. > :34:54.about that should vote for Brexit, because that is the only answer? It
:34:55. > :34:57.is the very principle of a single market across Europe, the free
:34:58. > :35:04.movement of people. If you have the free movement of capital, you should
:35:05. > :35:06.also have the free movement of people. What I should think is we
:35:07. > :35:11.should turn our issues on austerity in this country and indeed the
:35:12. > :35:17.generality of austerity across Europe. We should also turn our
:35:18. > :35:21.attention on tax havens and tax avoidance, which has only latterly
:35:22. > :35:25.begun to be dealt with by the European Union. Britain has a big
:35:26. > :35:29.role in this because as ground dependent territories, we have quite
:35:30. > :35:33.a lot of tax havens. People might come to your constituency and say,
:35:34. > :35:37.Mr Corbyn, I am really worried about the sheer number of people coming
:35:38. > :35:40.here. I am sorry you do not agree, but it worries me a lot. Those
:35:41. > :35:44.people are now moving towards the Leave side of the argument. If we
:35:45. > :35:49.leave as a country, it will be partly because lots and lots of
:35:50. > :35:54.Labour voters outside the metropolis and outside Scotland and the rest of
:35:55. > :35:58.England, vote Leave. If we leave as a country, exactly the same
:35:59. > :36:01.arguments will be made - about housing, about jobs, about social
:36:02. > :36:05.security. All of those issues will be exactly the same on Friday as
:36:06. > :36:11.they are on Thursday. The only thing is, it's going to be very much more
:36:12. > :36:15.difficult, because the trade arrangements with Europe are now
:36:16. > :36:20.quite deeply embedded to keep very large number of jobs in Britain do
:36:21. > :36:25.depend on exports to Europe. I do not believe in catastrophe
:36:26. > :36:28.arguments, but I say people should think very, very carefully about the
:36:29. > :36:32.direction in which we are going. If we want to have good conditions and
:36:33. > :36:36.good social security for all of us, that means it has to be thought of
:36:37. > :36:41.in this country, but also across Europe as a whole. And also, let's
:36:42. > :36:43.not turn our back on the humanitarian crises which exist
:36:44. > :36:47.around the world. I ask people to think very carefully on the very
:36:48. > :36:49.wise words of Rowan Williams this morning. Thank you for talking to us
:36:50. > :36:53.today. In a moment, I'll be
:36:54. > :36:55.talking to Michael Gove. But first, with only four days to go
:36:56. > :36:59.till voting in the EU referendum, details of a special
:37:00. > :37:00.programme coming up. Join us from Wembley Arena,
:37:01. > :37:03.where key figures will be debating the most
:37:04. > :37:04.important issues And it will be in front
:37:05. > :37:08.of a live audience of thousands in a final
:37:09. > :37:10.attempt to persuade you of We've just heard from Jeremy Corbyn,
:37:11. > :37:19.reflecting on the death of Jo Cox and what it means for the tone
:37:20. > :37:23.of political debate in this country and for the security of MPs
:37:24. > :37:25.as they go about their work. I'm joined now by the Justice
:37:26. > :37:34.Secretary, Michael Gove. Welcome to you. As Justice
:37:35. > :37:38.Secretary, and as a parliamentarian, what are your reflections on Jo Cox,
:37:39. > :37:42.did you know her at all? I did not know her well but I was tortured
:37:43. > :37:47.fortunate enough to meet her almost on her first week in the House of
:37:48. > :37:51.Commons, when we were in the tearoom and had forgotten her cash so I lent
:37:52. > :37:56.her a ?5 notes to get a cup of tea. Did you get it back? Absolutely. I
:37:57. > :38:00.struck up a conversation with her at the time, and had a few subsequent
:38:01. > :38:04.conversations, and as so many people who knew how far better than me have
:38:05. > :38:09.said, she is an amazing and wonderful person. She was a very
:38:10. > :38:11.vivid parliamentarian. Yet she spoke with great passion and
:38:12. > :38:16.effectiveness, she campaigned for causes she believed in with a great
:38:17. > :38:22.heart. And I think she was the sort of person who all of us would want
:38:23. > :38:29.our daughters to grow up to be like. She was an amazing person. I can
:38:30. > :38:32.only grieve for her and in particular think of her poor
:38:33. > :38:38.children and her Brive is burned, and I know the thoughts and prayers
:38:39. > :38:42.of many of us at this time are with them. What is your view on the
:38:43. > :38:49.debate we have been talking about on this programme about security for
:38:50. > :38:52.MPs? I know all of you want to be out there on the front line, but
:38:53. > :38:57.there is an issue now. A lot of female MPs in particular have become
:38:58. > :39:01.worried about physical threats, rape threats, made against them regularly
:39:02. > :39:05.on social media. People listen to these threats, and sometimes,
:39:06. > :39:08.tragically, they act on them. You're right. Female colleagues in
:39:09. > :39:15.particular have been subjected to the most horrendous abuse on social
:39:16. > :39:17.media outlets like Twitter. I am thinking of Lucy, the incredibly
:39:18. > :39:23.impressive and brave Labour MP who has faced horrendous anti-Semitic
:39:24. > :39:26.abuse. Stella Creasy, again, a great camp pain, and my colleague Nicky
:39:27. > :39:32.Morgan, who has also been on the receiving end. I think we need to
:39:33. > :39:36.take a step back and think what we can do in order to make sure that
:39:37. > :39:39.people in the public eye are kept safe. But I say two other things. It
:39:40. > :39:43.is really important that members of Parliament remain accessible, as
:39:44. > :39:49.Nicholas Soames and Kate Hoey said earlier. We are public servants. We
:39:50. > :39:53.are there to be in touch and to reflect what our voters want us to
:39:54. > :39:59.argue for. And therefore I think we must not try to need seal MPs away
:40:00. > :40:03.from people whom we serve and one other thing - there are other public
:40:04. > :40:09.servants who run daily risks, and as Justice Secretary, I think of prison
:40:10. > :40:13.officers, those who work in the court system and police officers as
:40:14. > :40:16.well. While I have been Justice Secretary, there have been
:40:17. > :40:19.horrendous assaults against prison officers, and of course there has
:40:20. > :40:25.been the murder of a police officer as well on, where side. So don't
:40:26. > :40:29.forget them. -- on Merseyside. There are so many dedicated public
:40:30. > :40:33.servants whose hard work we need to honour and whose safety needs to be
:40:34. > :40:36.in the forefront of our mind. Sir Nicholas Soames said that the tone
:40:37. > :40:39.of the political debate in this country has become more and more
:40:40. > :40:44.aggressive and perhaps excessive as well. In the course of this
:40:45. > :40:51.referendum debate, we all want robust arguments, but it has become
:40:52. > :40:55.a little bit over the top, has it not worry people on both sides have
:40:56. > :40:59.been pointing the finger, accusing each other of being traitors and
:41:00. > :41:03.lying and all the rest of it - has it been too aggressive? Of course,
:41:04. > :41:09.there have been moments when individuals have said things which I
:41:10. > :41:12.certainly would not endorse. But I am very strongly in favour of free
:41:13. > :41:17.speech. I think one of the things which is central to a healthy
:41:18. > :41:20.democracy is the belief that people can express themselves and expressed
:41:21. > :41:27.deep feelings with passion and force. One of the things not just
:41:28. > :41:31.about this referendum campaign, but election campaigns as well, is that
:41:32. > :41:34.people need to hear the arguments laid out, and the Advocate should
:41:35. > :41:40.begin an affair run. I certainly think that there have been people on
:41:41. > :41:44.the Remain side and on the Leave side who have made powerful,
:41:45. > :41:49.impressive and passionate arguments. When we think about what is precious
:41:50. > :41:53.in our democracy, and it is our democracy which we will be voting to
:41:54. > :41:57.decide on, on Thursday, when we think about what is precious, then
:41:58. > :42:04.free speech, robust debate, that is at the heart of our democracy. And
:42:05. > :42:09.you don't think it has gone too far? Sadiq Khan, who knows a thing or two
:42:10. > :42:16.about robust debate, has been talking about a climate of hatred,
:42:17. > :42:21.negativity and cynicism. First of all, I admire Sadiq Khan, I think he
:42:22. > :42:26.is proving to be, in his first few weeks, a good Mayor of London. I
:42:27. > :42:30.entirely understand, after having been through a male role campaign,
:42:31. > :42:34.why he will reflect on politics in that way. But I take a slightly
:42:35. > :42:42.different view. -- a mayoral campaign. Instead of commentating on
:42:43. > :42:47.the campaign, it is the responsibility of people like myself
:42:48. > :42:49.in any campaign to make arguments. I entirely respect the right of
:42:50. > :42:55.commentators like yourself and others, to draw conclusions and to
:42:56. > :42:58.mark our homework, as it were. But I don't think we politicians should
:42:59. > :43:02.mark our own homework. It is important for us to outline what we
:43:03. > :43:06.believe and then let the people make a judgment. I don't think I would
:43:07. > :43:12.dare module homework, Michael Gove. I know it was not your poster, but
:43:13. > :43:15.that famous poster which went out a couple of days ago, from the Ukip
:43:16. > :43:21.side of the Leave campaign, which had a big crowd of migrants, most of
:43:22. > :43:25.them brown skinned, and it just said, breaking point - what do you
:43:26. > :43:29.think about that kind of rhetoric? When I saw that poster, I shuddered.
:43:30. > :43:36.I thought it was the one thing to do. Again, I must stress, I believe
:43:37. > :43:41.in free speech. I don't want to deny anyone a platform. When I have had
:43:42. > :43:45.the opportunity to talk about migration during the course of this
:43:46. > :43:49.debate, I hope I have been very clear. I am pro-migration, but I
:43:50. > :43:52.believe that the way in which we secure public support for the
:43:53. > :43:55.continued benefits which migration brings, and the way we secure public
:43:56. > :44:00.support for helping refugees in need, is if people feel that they
:44:01. > :44:04.can control the overall numbers coming here. In Canada and
:44:05. > :44:07.Australia, they have control, and therefore they are able both to
:44:08. > :44:12.welcome economic migrants and refugees. I understand that. Let me
:44:13. > :44:16.look to you what the statement said on Turkey. Since the birth rate in
:44:17. > :44:21.Turkey is so high, we can expect to see an additional million people
:44:22. > :44:26.from Turkey alone in the EU within eight years. Crime is far higher,
:44:27. > :44:30.and so far... It sounds a bit like, those people are the threats. Are
:44:31. > :44:34.you happy with the tone of that? Yes, because I think it is important
:44:35. > :44:37.to stress that when we are thinking about the enlargement of the
:44:38. > :44:45.European Union, it is the official European Union policy to accelerate
:44:46. > :44:47.Turkey's accession to the EU. And a number of politicians, including
:44:48. > :44:51.Theresa May, have said that at the moment they do not think that is
:44:52. > :44:57.right. In particular, I have pointed out that the Turkish president has
:44:58. > :45:01.been taking his country in a direction which I do not think is
:45:02. > :45:05.progressive. All absolutely true. But within eight years? The Prime
:45:06. > :45:07.Minister says Turkey would not be a member of the EU until the year
:45:08. > :45:19.3000. The fact that the British government
:45:20. > :45:23.wants Turkey to join is clear. The rate and speed will depend on a
:45:24. > :45:27.bright era of political factors but it is the case that during the
:45:28. > :45:33.course of this year the European Union has said it wants to
:45:34. > :45:38.accelerate that process. When Turkey is becoming less democratic, that is
:45:39. > :45:45.not the right thing to do. Does the talk of birth rates make you a
:45:46. > :45:49.little queasy? It is important to take into account numbers overall.
:45:50. > :45:55.The important thing is we benefit from migration. If the numbers are
:45:56. > :45:57.controlled. We know that when Romania and Bulgaria joined the
:45:58. > :46:00.European Union, there were predictions on either side about the
:46:01. > :46:07.numbers that would come. Those people at the higher end of the
:46:08. > :46:11.estimates were correct. It puts a strain on public services and it is
:46:12. > :46:14.important when we're thinking about migration to look at numbers and to
:46:15. > :46:22.make sure there is a balanced approach. Michael Heseltine said,
:46:23. > :46:27.the Brexit case depends on fanning fears about immigration. I am amazed
:46:28. > :46:41.that someone like you marches to the drum of my Farage, Donald Trump and
:46:42. > :46:45.Le Pen. I think our campaign, which I must stress is cross-party, and
:46:46. > :46:51.has the support of people like Frank Field and Kate Hoey from the Labour
:46:52. > :46:57.Party people like David Owen, an Independent Democrat. It has been
:46:58. > :47:01.characterised by the breakfast of voices. It is not the people who
:47:02. > :47:07.have been leading the league campaign. It has been people like
:47:08. > :47:11.Kate, Frank, David Owen and myself and Boris Johnson, who are not cut
:47:12. > :47:18.from the cloth that Michael refers to. Let's move on to the economic
:47:19. > :47:24.side of the argument. What will happen is inevitably some kind of a
:47:25. > :47:28.gamble. Even if you say that the Treasury warnings are far too
:47:29. > :47:33.extreme and some of the stuff we have heard about economic Armageddon
:47:34. > :47:37.are going way, way over the top. Going from where we are now to a new
:47:38. > :47:44.place does involve a job. We have talked about bumps in the road.
:47:45. > :47:53.Michael Howard has said he does not worry about that. Surely you have to
:47:54. > :47:59.accept it is a gamble we will be taking if people vote to leave. I
:48:00. > :48:04.would not use the word gamble but I want to be absolutely clear about
:48:05. > :48:09.this. Whichever way we vote, there are risks to our future and
:48:10. > :48:13.challenges in the global economy. My view is the risks will be less and
:48:14. > :48:17.the challenges will be easier to need if we vote to leave because we
:48:18. > :48:22.will have control of the economic levers, the money we centred
:48:23. > :48:26.European Union, the control over our laws. As a result will be able to
:48:27. > :48:30.deal with whatever the world throws at us because people making
:48:31. > :48:34.decisions on our behalf are emotionally invested in our future,
:48:35. > :48:41.not people in Brussels and Strasbourg who are making decisions
:48:42. > :48:45.based on factors. Millions of people are looking for unimpeachable
:48:46. > :48:50.authority. If you work for Hitachi, who have said they will look again
:48:51. > :48:54.at investment in this country or Rolls-Royce same thing, or John
:48:55. > :48:58.Lewis, or JP Morgan, who are threatening jobs. They will listened
:48:59. > :49:03.to their own bosses and rightly so full that they know about their own
:49:04. > :49:07.industries. What is striking is there are so many bosses and
:49:08. > :49:11.corporate leaders who have said, whatever happens they will continue
:49:12. > :49:16.to invest in this country because the educational achievements, the
:49:17. > :49:20.generosity of spirit, the hard work and creative genius of the British
:49:21. > :49:24.people makes them believe in this country. More than that, there have
:49:25. > :49:35.been a number of very important business people, James Dyson and
:49:36. > :49:40.Bamford, for example. He and Anthony Bamford and Simon Wells, all of them
:49:41. > :49:46.are very clear we would be better off if we left the European Union.
:49:47. > :49:52.If you would not use the word gamble about taking the choice to leave, it
:49:53. > :49:59.is a big, big change. What word would you leave? What it would be
:50:00. > :50:05.would be an affirmation of faith and hope in Britain. I think Britain
:50:06. > :50:09.will be taking its place alongside countries like Australia, Canada,
:50:10. > :50:13.New Zealand and America as a self-governing democracy. Democracy
:50:14. > :50:17.is one of the great gifts we gave the world. Other countries which
:50:18. > :50:21.emulated our approach have prospered and that is a wonderful thing. I
:50:22. > :50:26.think if we voted to leave, what we would be doing is saying the British
:50:27. > :50:30.people, in their wisdom and generosity, have the ability to not
:50:31. > :50:37.just govern themselves well but to be a progressive beacon to the
:50:38. > :50:42.world. You mentioned Australia. The points system on immigration looks
:50:43. > :50:45.like a very detailed manifesto to be handed to whoever is Prime Minister
:50:46. > :50:50.after the result from the referendum. Is that on the ballot
:50:51. > :50:59.paper? You have made various promises and listed bills with
:51:00. > :51:05.European law, the Special Finance Bill, it looks like a manifesto. It
:51:06. > :51:10.is a clear outline of the things we could achieve and we voted to leave.
:51:11. > :51:14.Everything we have talked about, our policies we could embark on, they
:51:15. > :51:20.are changes we could make which would benefit this country. If we
:51:21. > :51:28.voted to leave, one thing is BLT on domestic fuel. We cannot remove VAT.
:51:29. > :51:36.-- VAT. It would be a good thing and help the very poorest in society. Is
:51:37. > :51:39.this on the ballot paper? People voting to leave the EU should know
:51:40. > :51:46.this can only happen if we vote to leave. Do go to David Cameron
:51:47. > :51:52.saying, here are the things you must do? I would say, now we have left
:51:53. > :51:56.the European Union and there has been a clear vote, an instruction
:51:57. > :52:03.from the electorate to us as a team to implement it, now is the time for
:52:04. > :52:07.us to implement these proposals and give people both the tax reduction
:52:08. > :52:11.that they hoped and believed we could receive only outside the
:52:12. > :52:15.European Union and also the boost to the National Health Service. He
:52:16. > :52:19.believes that leaving the single market will put a bomb under the
:52:20. > :52:24.economy and does not believe in the Australian points system and so
:52:25. > :52:28.forth. If he stayed on as Prime Minister, would he not simply be a
:52:29. > :52:34.hostage Prime Minister, a puppet Prime Minister, doing what he is
:52:35. > :52:39.told by the Brexiteers and the Tory Party? A humiliation for him.
:52:40. > :52:44.Absolutely not. One thing about the Prime Minister if he is a Democrat
:52:45. > :52:48.Patriot. When we had a vote in the House of Commons of intervention in
:52:49. > :52:55.Syria in the last parliament, the vote went against the Prime Minister
:52:56. > :53:00.and in what I believed. As a Democrat and patriot, he respected
:53:01. > :53:03.that vote and then sought to follow the instructions the House of
:53:04. > :53:11.Commons had given. On this occasion, the Prime Minister, if we vote to
:53:12. > :53:18.leave, I know he will respect that instruction. We were elected on a
:53:19. > :53:23.manifesto of which the referendum was part. There are also reforms of
:53:24. > :53:25.the education system and the National Health Service which is at
:53:26. > :53:32.the heart of what David Cameron wants to guarantee. I am 100% behind
:53:33. > :53:40.all of that. What about the comparison budget that George
:53:41. > :53:45.Osborne came up with? How can he have authority as Chancellor? I did
:53:46. > :53:50.not say I thought the situation would arise. George has been an
:53:51. > :53:54.outstanding Chancellor and he has rescued our economy from the
:53:55. > :54:00.difficult circumstances we inherited in 2010. During the course of the
:54:01. > :54:04.campaign, different sides, the Remains side, will make political
:54:05. > :54:09.interventions. I disagree with that political intervention. It does not
:54:10. > :54:17.in any way remove my admiration and respect for him. You could not sit
:54:18. > :54:26.inside a cabinet and vote down what the Chancellor has said. -- Cabinet.
:54:27. > :54:29.The argument that was made, on the basis of a speculative report, the
:54:30. > :54:35.country might lose a significant amount of money if we were to leave,
:54:36. > :54:38.I think that speculative report was wrong, our economy would be stronger
:54:39. > :54:44.if we voted to leave the European Union and the situation does not
:54:45. > :54:48.arise. A leading Tory donor said, business has lost trust in the
:54:49. > :54:50.Chancellor because of the big manipulation of figures in the
:54:51. > :54:54.referendum and a very strange arguments were so aggressive and
:54:55. > :54:58.without proper evidence about what would happen will be to leave the
:54:59. > :55:04.EU. For political union of the party, we need to think about the
:55:05. > :55:07.new Chancellor. I completely disagree with that. I am a
:55:08. > :55:12.free-speech guy. I respect the right people to put their cards on the
:55:13. > :55:15.table. I think our economy is stronger with George Osborne as
:55:16. > :55:19.Chancellor and I think our economy would be stronger if we voted to
:55:20. > :55:25.leave. We would be able to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on
:55:26. > :55:30.our priorities, like the NHS. Final quote from John Major. On the NHS,
:55:31. > :55:39.it is like a small hamster. You are a hungry pipe and a new cannot be
:55:40. > :55:44.trusted with the NHS. -- Tyson. I have enormous respect for the
:55:45. > :55:48.National Health Service and for him. But first, a look at what's coming
:55:49. > :56:01.up after this programme. We talk about the legacy of Jo Cox.
:56:02. > :56:05.The reaction to the Church of England is praying for health. As
:56:06. > :56:07.Tim Peake returns to Earth, we are asking, should we spend more on
:56:08. > :56:12.space? Join us at 10am, if you can. We're nearly out of
:56:13. > :56:14.time for this morning. On The Sunday Politics in an hour,
:56:15. > :56:18.Andrew Neil will be talking to the former Liberal Democrat
:56:19. > :56:20.leader Lord Ashdown. I'll also be talking
:56:21. > :56:22.to the actress Helen McCrory, and no doubt some
:56:23. > :56:23.political guests, too. But we leave you now with the young
:56:24. > :56:27.singer and songwriter Jake Bugg. From his brand new album,
:56:28. > :56:29.On My One, this is Love, # Crying for the one
:56:30. > :56:52.who doesn't love you # You don't know why
:56:53. > :56:56.he doesn't want you # So dry those eyes
:56:57. > :57:01.and don't be afraid # Crying for the one
:57:02. > :57:03.who doesn't love you # You don't know why
:57:04. > :57:07.he doesn't want you # So dry those eyes
:57:08. > :57:12.and don't be afraid # Cause the rhythm of
:57:13. > :57:16.lovers ain't the same # No, you don't know it don't
:57:17. > :57:23.come easy, come easy # I'm the first to have gone
:57:24. > :57:34.and tell me if I'm wrong # I hope that I am
:57:35. > :57:48.and you don't hate me # And I know, and I know
:57:49. > :58:01.that you must hate me # Holding back the reasons
:58:02. > :58:07.not to love you # But when you're
:58:08. > :58:13.feeling down and lonely # So dry those eyes
:58:14. > :58:24.and don't be afraid # Cause the rhythm of
:58:25. > :58:28.lovers ain't the same # No, you don't know
:58:29. > :58:31.it don't come easy # I'm the first to have gone
:58:32. > :58:45.and tell me if I'm wrong # I hope that I am
:58:46. > :58:49.and you don't hate me # And I know, and I
:58:50. > :59:03.know, and I know that