:00:00. > :00:08.And, by the way, is in anyone in charge?
:00:09. > :00:12.My only, neutral, BBC thought is this: probably it won't be quite
:00:13. > :00:15.as good as you hope - nor quite as bad as you fear.
:00:16. > :00:39.My guests today include victorious Brexiteer Iain Duncan Smith
:00:40. > :00:42.and Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon.
:00:43. > :00:46.And the man sacked overnight from the Shadow Cabinet for -
:00:47. > :00:49.his leader suspects - organising a coup against
:00:50. > :00:59.Different feel to the weekend, different feel to
:01:00. > :01:04.Later on, we'll hear from one of the few Remain ministers prepared
:01:05. > :01:07.to emerge from his foxhole this morning, Sajid Javid.
:01:08. > :01:16.We'll also be hopping to Westminster and Andrew Neil.
:01:17. > :01:23.There's a sense of history in the making here outside parliament,
:01:24. > :01:28.where in a specially extended Sunday Politics I will be speaking to keep
:01:29. > :01:31.politicians about where we go from here, including former Prime
:01:32. > :01:33.Minister, Tony Blair. My paper reviewers today
:01:34. > :01:35.are the Guardian's Polly Toynbee, Tim Montgomerie of
:01:36. > :01:39.the Times - very happy - and our own Laura Kuenssberg,
:01:40. > :01:41.who has at last, I hope, All that coming up, but first,
:01:42. > :01:45.the news with Louise Minchin. The BBC understands that up to half
:01:46. > :01:48.of Labour's Shadow Cabinet is to resign this morning over
:01:49. > :01:51.Jeremy Corbyn's performance A short time ago, the Shadow Health
:01:52. > :01:55.Secretary, Heidi Alexander, The Labour leader has already sacked
:01:56. > :02:00.the party's foreign affairs spokesman, Hilary Benn,
:02:01. > :02:03.after newspaper reports said he'd been trying to co-ordinate
:02:04. > :02:07.opposition to Mr Corbyn. Our political correspondent,
:02:08. > :02:24.Chris Mason, joins me In the middle of the night came a
:02:25. > :02:28.sacking. Then in the last hour, a resignation with, as you say,
:02:29. > :02:35.further resignations are expected to follow. Those around Jeremy Corbyn
:02:36. > :02:40.have concluded simply that he is a loser. Heidi Alexander, the now
:02:41. > :02:45.former Shadow Health Secretary, has written to Jeremy Corbyn in the last
:02:46. > :02:52.hours saying explicitly, more than ever, our country needs an effect of
:02:53. > :02:56.opposition that can hold our politicians to account. As much as I
:02:57. > :03:02.respect you as a man, I do not believe you have the power to shape
:03:03. > :03:07.the policies we need. I feel a change of leadership is essential. A
:03:08. > :03:11.move among senior Labour MPs to strongly make the case that Jeremy
:03:12. > :03:17.Corbyn should go. It would appear that Jeremy Corbyn is defiant this
:03:18. > :03:21.morning. He's saying he will replace those people who leave his top team,
:03:22. > :03:28.and saying that he would hope to run again if and when there is a
:03:29. > :03:33.challenge to his leadership. If the campaign group that helped Jeremy
:03:34. > :03:37.Corbyn to get elected and morphed into a campaign group supporting him
:03:38. > :03:44.since his leadership was secured, they make the argument that this is
:03:45. > :03:46.tantamount to war. They feel that Jeremy Corbyn is brilliant. Thank
:03:47. > :03:50.you. Leading politicians
:03:51. > :03:51.in northern France are calling on President Hollande to scrap
:03:52. > :03:54.immigration checks on the French side of the English Channel
:03:55. > :03:56.following the vote. Under a deal reached
:03:57. > :03:58.more than a decade ago, Britain can carry out checks
:03:59. > :04:00.in Calais to stop migrants The French government insists
:04:01. > :04:03.the current arrangement A ceremony will be held today
:04:04. > :04:07.in the Tunisian resort of Sousse, where a lone gunman went
:04:08. > :04:10.on the rampage a year ago, killing 38 people, including 30
:04:11. > :04:14.British holiday-makers. The families of the victims
:04:15. > :04:17.are holding their own acts of remembrance around the UK,
:04:18. > :04:20.and a one minute silence will be observed at government
:04:21. > :04:23.buildings tomorrow. The Tunisian industry has been
:04:24. > :04:27.badly hit by the attack. The authorities insist that they've
:04:28. > :04:31.improved security and that it's now safe for visitors to return,
:04:32. > :04:35.but the British Foreign Office is still advising
:04:36. > :04:39.people to stay away. People in Spain are heading
:04:40. > :04:42.to the polls for the second to try to end the country's
:04:43. > :04:46.political deadlock. December's vote was won
:04:47. > :04:50.by the right-wing Popular Party, but it failed to secure an overall
:04:51. > :04:53.majority and, since then, all attempts to form
:04:54. > :04:55.a Coalition Government Now, as I said, it's a very
:04:56. > :05:07.different kind of Sunday morning. And, if you'll forgive me,
:05:08. > :05:09.I just wanted to start with a few thoughts,
:05:10. > :05:12.because this is the most dramatic and important democratic decision
:05:13. > :05:19.ever taken by the British people. But it leaves our
:05:20. > :05:22.country deeply divided. The 17 million leavers
:05:23. > :05:28.against the 16 million stayers. The minute you dig down
:05:29. > :05:31.into the data, you find that poorer areas with more unskilled
:05:32. > :05:34.and semi-skilled workers and more pensioners were much
:05:35. > :05:38.likelier to leave. The map of the results shows
:05:39. > :05:42.a yawning gap between the posh, better-educated and richer
:05:43. > :05:44.parts of Britain - London, some of the city
:05:45. > :05:47.centres elsewhere, university towns and so on -
:05:48. > :05:49.and the huge swathes of post-industrial ex-mining
:05:50. > :05:52.and struggling fishing Whatever the politicians tell us,
:05:53. > :05:57.right at the moment, Now, none of this should come
:05:58. > :06:02.as a surprise, nor can we really For the past 50 years,
:06:03. > :06:08.we have seen a decline in heavy industrial,
:06:09. > :06:13.making-things and exporting Britain, and a rise in service industries,
:06:14. > :06:16.banking and culture which mopped up Under our last five prime ministers,
:06:17. > :06:24.we became a shopping nation. London boomed as a global centre
:06:25. > :06:27.while, ignored by too much of the political and media class,
:06:28. > :06:31.places like industrial Wales, the Black Country and struggling
:06:32. > :06:35.coastal towns became ever poorer, Meanwhile, waves of migration
:06:36. > :06:42.and globalised culture washed among Whole communities changed
:06:43. > :06:48.colour and language, leaving older people bemused
:06:49. > :06:52.and cut off. As the numbers from Eastern Europe
:06:53. > :06:55.rose, eager, white, hard-working new neighbours,
:06:56. > :07:00.alarm grew in parts of the country. But the self-confidently
:07:01. > :07:04.multi-ethnic liberal urban class, high on house prices
:07:05. > :07:09.and high employment levels, were having such a good time,
:07:10. > :07:13.they barely noticed. London spoke a lot,
:07:14. > :07:16.but didn't listen. This has been the rebellion
:07:17. > :07:21.of the diminished against the cocky, the ignored against the shapers
:07:22. > :07:26.of modern times, on the struggling This revolt has taken us out
:07:27. > :07:31.of Europe with huge consequences It has also taken out the leadership
:07:32. > :07:36.of the governing party, and may soon remove the leadership
:07:37. > :07:43.of the opposition party as well. In the House of Commons today,
:07:44. > :07:46.nobody has a clear majority, and whatever administration
:07:47. > :07:49.is cobbled together over the next weeks and months,
:07:50. > :07:51.it will surely struggle We are today still a lucky country,
:07:52. > :07:59.able to fashion our own future, But we are also divided, full of bad
:08:00. > :08:05.feelings and in choppy seas, Andrew Neil has been
:08:06. > :08:10.following events from Westminster round the clock -
:08:11. > :08:13.part of the vast media encampment He'll be hosting the Sunday Politics
:08:14. > :08:18.from there, immediately Andrew, what's your view on this
:08:19. > :08:32.extraordinary week? Well, Britain has crossed the most
:08:33. > :08:37.significant political watershed in my lifetime. It's not so much a new
:08:38. > :08:41.chapter in our island's story as a new volume. There will be
:08:42. > :08:46.challenges, some of which we haven't yet recognised, but the European
:08:47. > :08:52.Union faces problem of its own. Eurosceptics as is on the rise from
:08:53. > :08:57.Italy to Portugal and already endemic in Greece. Pro-EU parties of
:08:58. > :09:03.the Centre left and centre-right are in retreat, harried and sometimes
:09:04. > :09:08.defeated by more radical voices from both the right and left.
:09:09. > :09:12.Anti-Brussels sentiment is at British levels across north-west
:09:13. > :09:18.Europe. In France, the EU is now even less popular than it is here in
:09:19. > :09:24.Blighty. Thursday's Brexit vote, far from being a case of British
:09:25. > :09:29.exceptionalism, could well be the first in a series of rebellions
:09:30. > :09:35.against the European project as currently constituted. This is not
:09:36. > :09:42.to suggest that there could be a rush to the exit. The EU, almost as
:09:43. > :09:49.much as the UK, is now in uncharted territory. Hard to disagree with any
:09:50. > :10:09.of that. There is a huge referendum had a
:10:10. > :10:18.huge petition supporting another referendum. The Express is in
:10:19. > :10:23.cheerful mood. The Sun has the dirty side of the story. Project Smear,
:10:24. > :10:31.people trying to smear Boris. There was a lot of talk of a antibodies
:10:32. > :10:35.campaign. There is a picture in the Mail of Boris playing cricket.
:10:36. > :10:42.Tories battle to stop Boris is the headline. Horace needs to lose a
:10:43. > :10:48.little bit of weight! UK faces Brexit crisis as Europe's leaders
:10:49. > :10:54.demand, get out now. The Sunday Telegraph, Tories at war. A very
:10:55. > :10:58.tough, clear headline. We will start with that one. Also the Sunday
:10:59. > :11:08.Times. Top Tories rushed to stop Horace bandwagon. Then Shadow
:11:09. > :11:12.Cabinet in Corbyn coup plot. That story, the Tories at war. This could
:11:13. > :11:18.have been Labour at war. It could have been Britain at War. Or Europe
:11:19. > :11:24.at War. The volume and significance of the stories that we are seeing,
:11:25. > :11:28.and the Prime Minister has just resigned. If you look through the
:11:29. > :11:35.papers, there is very little on that, his time as Prime Minister. It
:11:36. > :11:39.has been completely overtaken by events. It seems at the moment that
:11:40. > :11:44.almost nobody has a clear majority in the House of Commons now. The
:11:45. > :11:49.defeated Remain Tories don't, and the Brexit Tories don't either.
:11:50. > :11:54.There is this weird sense of drift. Nobody is in charge. Do you agree? I
:11:55. > :11:59.think it's true, and I think it's one of the reasons that Labour is
:12:00. > :12:02.moving so quickly to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn. The new Tory leader
:12:03. > :12:07.will not make the mistake that Gordon Brown made when he took over
:12:08. > :12:10.from Tony Blair. As long as opinion polls give that new leader at
:12:11. > :12:16.bounce, I think the new leader will go to the country quite quickly, to
:12:17. > :12:21.get a new mandate to implement the kind of Brexit negotiations they
:12:22. > :12:27.want. Because there was a question of legitimacy. It is a Tory leader
:12:28. > :12:35.that the country didn't choose. Three quarters of the party are
:12:36. > :12:42.pro-remain, and they have been given an instruction to leave the European
:12:43. > :12:49.Union. A lot of people are so committed to that, I think they will
:12:50. > :12:53.try to push against it. Laura is going to be a very busy woman over
:12:54. > :12:58.the summer. Polly, I was mentioning the division in the country. Those
:12:59. > :13:05.maps really show it. You have picked the Observer here. The maps to show
:13:06. > :13:09.it. The Sunday papers have plunged immediately into the inside the
:13:10. > :13:15.Beltway of Westminster, who is up, who is down. I think they have not
:13:16. > :13:18.paused enough to consider the cataclysmic enormity which you
:13:19. > :13:23.grasped at the beginning of this programme, of quite how huge this
:13:24. > :13:28.is, what a seismic change in a direction we don't know where it's
:13:29. > :13:35.going. But there are some very good analyses here. Rob Ford in the
:13:36. > :13:40.Observer analyses, and it is excellent about who has voted what.
:13:41. > :13:44.Here we have the divide between the political class and the rest,
:13:45. > :13:48.between London and the rest of England, and the old and the young.
:13:49. > :13:54.The young are very angry because 75% of them voted to remain. The old
:13:55. > :13:59.seem to have taken control in a way that seems to be rather surprising.
:14:00. > :14:04.Usually they are the ballast, the stabilisers. This time, they have
:14:05. > :14:11.been the rebels, the anarchists. The young have said, let's hold on to
:14:12. > :14:15.what we've got. They otherwise ones. They have seen politicians say,
:14:16. > :14:19.Europe's is about to come our way, the reform is about to happen...
:14:20. > :14:24.They know not to believe these policies. They have done the young a
:14:25. > :14:31.favour by saying the project is doomed. To be older is not to be
:14:32. > :14:35.wise, we have learnt! Laura, Polly said that the papers have not
:14:36. > :14:43.grasped the sense of enormity. But the front page of the Observer has
:14:44. > :14:47.some sense. It is saying, if that's what you want, you will get it
:14:48. > :14:51.quickly. All the way through the campaign, Cameron has said that he
:14:52. > :14:56.will trigger Article 50 immediately, the process to take us out of the
:14:57. > :15:01.European Union. Believers have said, calm down, we will have a period of
:15:02. > :15:05.informal chats. They are still hoping that is the case. Cameron has
:15:06. > :15:10.changed his mind and said it does not have to happen immediately. But
:15:11. > :15:15.our new neighbours have said, tough. We want to get on with it. But it is
:15:16. > :15:20.not in their control when Article 50 is triggered. That gives us a
:15:21. > :15:25.two-year window when it starts to run. Time is short and will weaken
:15:26. > :15:26.Britain's hands in those negotiations, so it is in our
:15:27. > :15:36.interests to delay. That is exactly the case, and it is
:15:37. > :15:41.part of the reason why David Cameron felt that he had to go. You are
:15:42. > :15:46.quite right, only the British Prime Minister can actually press the
:15:47. > :15:50.button on this, but just a sense now of how we will not really be in
:15:51. > :15:55.charge of this process already. David Cameron has to go to a summit
:15:56. > :16:03.in Brussels this week, and he has already been un-invited to a session
:16:04. > :16:08.on Wednesday. The crucial part of this Article 50 process is that the
:16:09. > :16:14.departing party is outside the room. David Cameron has to say to them in
:16:15. > :16:20.terms, I now trigger Article 50. It doesn't happen by acting in --
:16:21. > :16:29.accident. Tim, you have picked a chirpy column from the Sunday Times.
:16:30. > :16:33.Polly described it as cataclysmic, but all Britain has done is we have
:16:34. > :16:38.chosen to be like most countries in the world, Canada, Australia, New
:16:39. > :16:43.Zealand, Japan, countries that do very well without any part of a
:16:44. > :16:52.supranational structure. Nobody around the world is copying the U
:16:53. > :16:55.model, because they see the unemployment it has led to edit and
:16:56. > :17:00.ability to make decisions. If you have 20 people around a table, it is
:17:01. > :17:09.very difficult to get agreement. This is a lovely, optimistic piece.
:17:10. > :17:16.90% of our exports is with non-EU countries. We will now be able to
:17:17. > :17:20.negotiate trade arrangements with new countries, and France won't be
:17:21. > :17:25.able to veto them, Denmark won't be able to veto them. We are now, as
:17:26. > :17:28.the slogan says, in control of our destiny in a way we went in the
:17:29. > :17:34.past. And this is interesting, because Rayhan was in the Remain
:17:35. > :17:40.camp in the run-up to the referendum, but he is seeing the
:17:41. > :17:49.Silver is. Yes, an ally of Steve Hilton, a passionate Brexiteer. Nick
:17:50. > :17:52.Owen in the Observer says, what trouble is ahead. The people will
:17:53. > :18:00.feel that they have been swindled, and the number of lies that Johnson
:18:01. > :18:04.and Gove told, within hours you had them coming out saying, actually, we
:18:05. > :18:11.are not going to change migration that much, which was the motivator.
:18:12. > :18:18.But Mo both sides told lies, both sides smeared themselves in my view.
:18:19. > :18:24.The BBC has to stand in the middle, but the truth is that what was
:18:25. > :18:28.promised to people particularly was migration, and immediately they are
:18:29. > :18:34.saying, I'm not sure we. Having that many EU migrants. People will be
:18:35. > :18:37.outraged if that promises kept. The ?350 million a week, we don't think
:18:38. > :18:42.that is coming back, it certainly isn't going to the NHS, and Farage
:18:43. > :18:48.saying, we shouldn't have promised that anyway. All of the things that
:18:49. > :18:53.people voted on the basis of, they are going to realise they have been
:18:54. > :18:56.betrayed. Lets wait and see. If you look across the papers, the
:18:57. > :18:59.overwhelming sense is that the entire British political class has
:19:00. > :19:04.been toppled by this, the Labour Party as well. Absolutely, and the
:19:05. > :19:08.people who have been privately critical of Jeremy Corbyn for a long
:19:09. > :19:18.time, they now see this is their moment. The accusation is that he
:19:19. > :19:23.didn't do enough to get Remain- tending Labour supporters out, and
:19:24. > :19:26.we hear that MPs are plotting to get him out, and we are already in the
:19:27. > :19:30.potential runners and riders territory. One of those not there is
:19:31. > :19:36.Hilary Benn who was sacked overnight. Is it your sense that a
:19:37. > :19:40.coup is now under way? Yes. Whether it will be successful is another
:19:41. > :19:42.matter, but Hilary Benn were sacked overnight because he told Jeremy
:19:43. > :19:46.Corbyn that he didn't have confidence in his leadership. In the
:19:47. > :19:53.last hour, Heidi Alexander, Shadow Health Secretary but less well
:19:54. > :19:56.known, has also resigned. Higher resignation is critical in this. We
:19:57. > :19:59.knew that Hilary Benn and Jeremy Corbyn came to blows over Syria. We
:20:00. > :20:02.knew that they had been at loggerheads, we know the Jeremy
:20:03. > :20:08.Corbyn tried to fire him a few months ago and failed to do so.
:20:09. > :20:12.Heidi Alexander has been a different thing. I think there will be more
:20:13. > :20:16.resignations from other members of the Shadow Cabinet today. What
:20:17. > :20:21.happens after that is a very big question. At one level, this whole
:20:22. > :20:26.thing seems to be completely futile, because this has to be a election of
:20:27. > :20:29.the entire Labour membership, and they are overwhelmingly, even now,
:20:30. > :20:34.behind Jeremy Corbyn, there is yet another petition to back him. And as
:20:35. > :20:38.long as his name is on the ballot paper, that is who the Labour Party
:20:39. > :20:42.look like they will choose. There are two things here. If you talk to
:20:43. > :20:49.Jeremy Corbyn's team, they say he will stand again and he has the
:20:50. > :20:53.right to be on the ballot paper. There is disagreement over the
:20:54. > :20:56.Labour Party rules, legal advice. And it goes back to Hilary Benn's
:20:57. > :21:02.dad who stood against Neil Kinnock back in the day. Jeremy Corbyn's
:21:03. > :21:05.team are confident he automatically gets on the ballot paper, but there
:21:06. > :21:09.are people in the Labour Party who take a different view, so there
:21:10. > :21:13.might be an almighty row over whether not he has an automatic
:21:14. > :21:16.right to stand. And second of all, the assumption at the moment is that
:21:17. > :21:20.the new members of the Labour Party who Jeremy Corbyn so ends use last
:21:21. > :21:23.summer, who pulled off an amazing feat I getting nearly 200,000 people
:21:24. > :21:28.to join the party, that is astonishing in these times. The
:21:29. > :21:34.assumption is that they are still overwhelmingly backing him. In the
:21:35. > :21:37.last 48 hours, don't underestimate how unhappy some Labour MPs and
:21:38. > :21:42.party members are about the decision of people to leave the European
:21:43. > :21:49.Union. There is a poll today showing 29% of Labour voters say they would
:21:50. > :21:53.not vote Labour at the next election. You have to remember how
:21:54. > :21:57.few Labour voters there were any way at the last election, so to lose a
:21:58. > :22:01.third is a real crisis the Labour, and that is what is motivating.
:22:02. > :22:05.Nobody knows who might come up as candidates next. And it hardly
:22:06. > :22:11.matters whether it is somebody of left or right, they just need
:22:12. > :22:13.somebody who looks as if they can lead, galvanise, inspire, and I
:22:14. > :22:19.think the left/ right business will be less important than who has some
:22:20. > :22:25.charisma. I want to jump from Labour sadness to Tory sadness, but before
:22:26. > :22:29.we do, Polly, you have the Sunday Post, Dundee's great national
:22:30. > :22:35.newspaper on your iPad there. 59% yes for Scottish independence. Will
:22:36. > :22:39.that be enough? Nicola Sturgeon has been wisely saying she is not going
:22:40. > :22:42.for another referendum unless she knows she will win it, so she needs
:22:43. > :22:48.to know she has an overwhelming majority. If she gets that for two
:22:49. > :22:52.weeks, that will be enough? Who knows if it is enough. She will lose
:22:53. > :22:56.some of that during the course of the campaign when they go back to
:22:57. > :23:00.what currency, will it be the euro, what will it be, and they go back to
:23:01. > :23:06.the oil price. I think she needs to have a very high Yes poll like this
:23:07. > :23:10.for a very long time before she goes for the vote. And she has to
:23:11. > :23:15.persuade met Westminster to allow it to happen. Nicola Sturgeon has
:23:16. > :23:21.absolutely tried to seize this moment to be out in front, saying
:23:22. > :23:27.this is what should happen next were Scotland, but in Westminster, there
:23:28. > :23:32.it is gushing about whether one part of the country can stay and one
:23:33. > :23:36.leave. And Tim, the other big leadership question is of course
:23:37. > :23:42.Boris Johnson. A fairly brutal headline their inside the Son on
:23:43. > :23:48.Sunday, you have killed off our Prime Minister, we will get you. How
:23:49. > :23:57.serious is that? Very serious if you look a year before Margaret
:23:58. > :24:02.Thatcher, David Cameron became leaders, they were not leadership
:24:03. > :24:05.contenders, and this is because candidates come forward because they
:24:06. > :24:11.have such weighty campaigns against the current leadership. I am holding
:24:12. > :24:15.in my tummy now as I do this press review after your comments on his
:24:16. > :24:20.white! Boris will be subject to a lot of attacks over the next two or
:24:21. > :24:23.three weeks. Huge numbers of Remain supporters inside the Conservative
:24:24. > :24:35.Party. We had John Major in this studio a little while ago saying
:24:36. > :24:39.that Number 10 and Number 11 feel that. And isn't it the case that
:24:40. > :24:48.after what happened in the referendum, the Tory party has to be
:24:49. > :24:53.led by a Brexiteer? A lot of people will think Theresa May has played
:24:54. > :24:58.this very wisely. This isn't just about the Tory leader, this is about
:24:59. > :25:02.who is going to be the Prime Minister, and 150,000 Conservative
:25:03. > :25:04.members will choose that. I think Boris is responsible enough to take
:25:05. > :25:12.that, I think there will be doubts about that. The British people, the
:25:13. > :25:15.electorate will decide eventually. Thank you very much to all of you.
:25:16. > :25:17.Let's talk about pathetic fallacy - you know, nature mimics
:25:18. > :25:19.our inner feelings - storms on voting day,
:25:20. > :25:22.quite a lot of sunshine afterwards, but it's all incredibly volatile,
:25:23. > :25:34.Over to Stav Danaos with the weather.
:25:35. > :25:41.Thank you, Andrew. The skies were volatile yesterday, hailstones in
:25:42. > :25:45.places. We have a weather front pushing in across western areas
:25:46. > :25:52.already, into Scotland and Wales in south-west England. The best of the
:25:53. > :25:59.sunshine reserved for the East, with the best of the temperatures, 21
:26:00. > :26:01.Celsius. This evening, the rain continues to come eastwards, and
:26:02. > :26:08.overnight it clears away from eastern areas but leaves some spots
:26:09. > :26:22.of drizzle. With the cloud, it should be a fairly dry night. At
:26:23. > :26:27.break serve rain overnight into tomorrow, but Monday looks like
:26:28. > :26:31.being a fine day. It looks pretty good across the south-east,
:26:32. > :26:35.temperatures in the low 20s Celsius. A good day for tennis at Wimbledon
:26:36. > :26:38.getting under way, lots of games going on with very few
:26:39. > :26:40.interruptions, but it looks like as we head on into the rest of the
:26:41. > :26:46.week, we have rain in the forecast. Well, the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon
:26:47. > :26:52.could not have been clearer. She fought last month's election
:26:53. > :26:54.in Scotland on a manifesto which explicitly said a vote
:26:55. > :26:57.for Brexit would lead her to seek But overnight there are reports that
:26:58. > :27:00.Brussels isn't going The First Minister joins me
:27:01. > :27:13.now from Glasgow. Is it your priority to have a
:27:14. > :27:16.negotiation as Scotland with Brussels to allow Scotland to more
:27:17. > :27:23.or less seamlessly stay inside the EU? My short answer to that is yes,
:27:24. > :27:28.but let me expand on it. Please do. The first thing I would say is, I
:27:29. > :27:31.didn't want to be in this position this weekend, I hoped it campaigns
:27:32. > :27:35.to help persuade people across the UK to stay in the EU, but people in
:27:36. > :27:40.England have voted differently to be built in Scotland. Scotland voted
:27:41. > :27:44.overwhelmingly to remain a member of the European Union, so my challenge
:27:45. > :27:48.now as First Minister is to work out how I best protect Scotland's
:27:49. > :27:53.interest and tried to prevent us being taken out of the EU against
:27:54. > :27:57.our will, with all of the deeply damaging and painful consequences
:27:58. > :28:02.that that will entail. Independence is not my starting point in this,
:28:03. > :28:06.protecting Scotland's interest is my starting point, but if it is the
:28:07. > :28:08.case that is looking again at the question of independence becomes the
:28:09. > :28:13.only way in which we can protect Scotland's interests, that is a
:28:14. > :28:18.debate and a decision that the people of Scotland have the right to
:28:19. > :28:23.take over the next period. But in all of this, it is about protecting
:28:24. > :28:26.Scotland's interests. If we do find ourselves in the position of looking
:28:27. > :28:32.again at the independence question, this is not going to be a rerun of
:28:33. > :28:36.the 2014 referendum. The context of the circumstances have changed
:28:37. > :28:40.dramatically. The UK that Scotland voted to remain within in 2014
:28:41. > :28:44.doesn't exist any more, and this is a case of how do we best protect the
:28:45. > :28:48.stability and interests of Scotland. So you would like to be Prime
:28:49. > :28:51.Minister of an independent country, but you are First Minister of a
:28:52. > :28:56.country that is not independent, so how can you lead a delegation as it
:28:57. > :29:00.were to Brussels and are given Scotland's interests while Scotland
:29:01. > :29:04.is still inside the UK? I am certainly going to seek to do that.
:29:05. > :29:08.The reality is we are in unprecedented territory here. We
:29:09. > :29:12.have heard people of the last couple of days talking about the rules that
:29:13. > :29:16.will apply to the Article 50 process. The reality is there are no
:29:17. > :29:23.rules, there is no precedent, this has never been done before, and what
:29:24. > :29:28.happens from here on in is unprecedented. My position is to
:29:29. > :29:33.seek to protect Scotland's interests. Have you spoken to anyone
:29:34. > :29:36.in Brussels about this yet? I will be speaking to people in Brussels
:29:37. > :29:41.over the next few days. I haven't done that yet. We are in a period of
:29:42. > :29:46.only a couple of days since this vote happened. I understand that. My
:29:47. > :29:52.priority is to seek to detect Scotland's interest in uncharted
:29:53. > :29:57.territory. I their challenges for Scotland in this? Of course there
:29:58. > :30:00.are, but I want to have an open conversation in Scotland about how
:30:01. > :30:07.we best lead this country forward. Are two options going forward as
:30:08. > :30:10.regards to Brussels. One, you have a successful negotiation which allow
:30:11. > :30:15.Scotland to stay inside the UK, and then move more or less seamlessly
:30:16. > :30:20.back into the EU, that seems to be being turned down by Brussels today.
:30:21. > :30:23.If they turn it down, you have to go into the queue to join as a new
:30:24. > :30:28.independent country. Which would you prefer?
:30:29. > :30:36.There are a number of options and I am not going to be rushed into
:30:37. > :30:42.saying which is the best. I don't think that anybody has turned
:30:43. > :30:49.anything down. The Mail on Sunday has poured called water on our
:30:50. > :30:52.democratic aspirations. The substance of that story appears to
:30:53. > :30:57.be, here are the rules that will apply with the Article 50 process.
:30:58. > :31:03.There are no rules and no precedent. My job over the coming days, weeks
:31:04. > :31:07.and months is to seek to discuss and negotiate the best way forward for
:31:08. > :31:13.Scotland, and I am going to do that in a way that tries to unify people
:31:14. > :31:18.in Scotland. You are still part of the UK at the moment. There are
:31:19. > :31:22.suggestions from the Leave campaign is that they want Scotland, Wales
:31:23. > :31:26.and Northern Ireland to be part of a UK wide delegation to go to Brussels
:31:27. > :31:33.to discuss the terms of exit. Would you be part of that? Scotland voted
:31:34. > :31:38.to stay in the European Union. We made it very clear. More than 60% of
:31:39. > :31:44.people across Scotland voted to stay. Every single local authority
:31:45. > :31:49.area in Scotland voted to stay. It was emphatic. My priority is to
:31:50. > :31:53.protect Scotland's interests, but my starting point is to protect
:31:54. > :31:57.Scotland's interest within the European Union. This is not just a
:31:58. > :32:02.matter of principle. What will happen with the UK is that there are
:32:03. > :32:07.going to be deeply damaging and painful consequences of the process
:32:08. > :32:10.of trying to extricate the UK from the European Union. I want to
:32:11. > :32:15.protect Scotland from that. I don't want to see the damage done to our
:32:16. > :32:21.economy, society, culture and place in the world. Back at the time of
:32:22. > :32:27.the 2014 referendum, one of the problems the Yes campaign had was
:32:28. > :32:35.over the currency. But can you share a pound with a UK that is outside
:32:36. > :32:39.the EU if you are in the EU? Let's take this step-by-step. We are in
:32:40. > :32:46.very different circumstances to those in 2014. One of the important
:32:47. > :32:50.differences is, in a sense, this would not be a decision about
:32:51. > :32:55.Scotland leaving anywhere. This would be a decision about Scotland
:32:56. > :33:00.staying. So the moral argument about us retaining the current terms we
:33:01. > :33:06.have would be even stronger than in 2014. Can I react for currency, if
:33:07. > :33:10.you wouldn't mind? On the currency, I am not saying just now that there
:33:11. > :33:16.are not questions and challenges that Scotland would have to face up
:33:17. > :33:20.to. I am not going to be rushed into giving definitive answers today. We
:33:21. > :33:26.need to work through these decisions. The important point is as
:33:27. > :33:32.we do this, in 2014, I was convinced that independence would be best for
:33:33. > :33:36.Scotland. But understandably, some people in Scotland saw it as a
:33:37. > :33:41.chance -- a choice between stepping into the unknown and the security of
:33:42. > :33:47.staying within the UK. That is not the case just now. That is why
:33:48. > :33:52.Scotland's continued membership of the EU is so critical. If you cannot
:33:53. > :33:57.get back in again until the UK has left, which seems the likelier of
:33:58. > :34:04.the options dog-macro you don't agree with that? I don't. We are in
:34:05. > :34:13.our chat -- in an charted territory. The point here is that we don't want
:34:14. > :34:17.to leave. We don't want to leave and get back in. We want to stay. You
:34:18. > :34:23.need that voice to be heard while you are still part of the UK. Haggui
:34:24. > :34:30.go about doing that? What is the timetable? Who will you speak to? I
:34:31. > :34:34.am not suggesting that the path ahead is without complexity. The
:34:35. > :34:41.Scottish Cabinet has made very clear that in the days, weeks and months
:34:42. > :34:46.to come, we will seek discussions with European Union institutions and
:34:47. > :34:50.other member states to explore all options to giving effect to the
:34:51. > :34:54.democratic will of the people of Scotland. My guiding principle is
:34:55. > :34:59.the best interests of Scotland and protecting what Scotland voted for.
:35:00. > :35:04.If Scotland is a member of the European Union and England isn't,
:35:05. > :35:09.there then has to be a proper border, with controls and checks.
:35:10. > :35:13.Whatever happens with Scotland, this issue of the border is going to have
:35:14. > :35:20.to be resolved in the context of Ireland. Some of these issues that
:35:21. > :35:24.would arise for Scotland in these circumstances arise anyway in the
:35:25. > :35:31.Irish context and will have to be resolved. I don't want to see, in
:35:32. > :35:36.any circumstances, a border between Scotland and England. England is our
:35:37. > :35:41.nearest neighbour and I hope will always be our best friend. But
:35:42. > :35:47.Scotland has chosen to be... I am not prepared, at this stage... You
:35:48. > :35:53.may have to go into a referendum saying, the currency is the euro.
:35:54. > :36:01.You are jumping several steps ahead. We are in uncharted territory. Not
:36:02. > :36:06.because of choices Scotland have been made but because of choices
:36:07. > :36:10.that have been melt elsewhere. -- made elsewhere. I have a job to do
:36:11. > :36:15.to protect Scotland and negotiate the best way forward for Scotland. I
:36:16. > :36:20.look at what is happening in Westminster and just now with a
:36:21. > :36:25.sense of utter despair on behalf of people in England and other parts of
:36:26. > :36:32.the UK, as that vacuum in Labour and the Tories expands. There is no
:36:33. > :36:37.vacuum in Scotland. I am going to do everything I can to prevent Scotland
:36:38. > :36:42.being taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of
:36:43. > :36:45.that would be devastating. We will get a new Conservative Prime
:36:46. > :36:49.Minister. What happens if that Prime Minister says to you, Nicola
:36:50. > :36:52.Sturgeon, you had a referendum in 2014 and I will not allow you to
:36:53. > :37:02.have that now. I think people in Scotland would find that
:37:03. > :37:08.unacceptable. I don't think it is acceptable, in the context we find
:37:09. > :37:13.ourselves in, for anybody to do try to dictate to Scotland the terms of
:37:14. > :37:17.how we seek to take the country forward. I would caution any future
:37:18. > :37:18.Prime Minister against putting themselves in that position. Thank
:37:19. > :37:23.you for talking to us this morning. The referendum divided
:37:24. > :37:25.the country and the Cabinet. The Business Secretary Sajid Javid
:37:26. > :37:27.said his heart was for Brexit, but he ended up backing Remain
:37:28. > :37:30.because he said uncertainty So how does he feel
:37:31. > :37:40.about the outcome now? You work very closely with George
:37:41. > :37:46.Osborne. When are we going to get the punishment object? The country
:37:47. > :37:51.has spoken. It is a clear decision. The people of Britain have issued
:37:52. > :37:54.their instructions, and my job is to focus on delivering those
:37:55. > :37:59.instructions on making sure they work. I think we can make them work
:38:00. > :38:06.for the country. You and your allies promised this country that if we
:38:07. > :38:08.voted for Brexit, there would be a brutal punishment budget. Taxes
:38:09. > :38:14.would go up and spending would be slashed. When will that happen?
:38:15. > :38:16.There was a very robust debate throughout the campaign. What
:38:17. > :38:23.matters now is what is going to happen. You said what was going to
:38:24. > :38:27.happen. You said that a punishment budget would be imposed on the
:38:28. > :38:32.British people. Now you are pulling back from it already. My job as
:38:33. > :38:37.Business Secretary is something I have been focused on since 7am on
:38:38. > :38:41.Friday when the result was clear. It is to make this vote of the British
:38:42. > :38:46.people work. They had every right to make this decision. I am going to
:38:47. > :38:51.work with businesses, organisations and people across the country to
:38:52. > :38:56.make this work. During the campaign, you said, within two years there
:38:57. > :39:02.will be a recession. A 3.6% contraction of GDP, higher
:39:03. > :39:06.inflation, house prices 10% lower, and a loss of over half a million
:39:07. > :39:12.jobs. It will make our country poorer. Deuce till believed that?
:39:13. > :39:17.Throughout the campaign, many organisations made many forecasts.
:39:18. > :39:23.What matters now is the reality of how we face this momentous decision
:39:24. > :39:27.for our country. I am focused on speaking to businesses, I have
:39:28. > :39:33.spoken to many of them since 7am on Friday. They employ millions of
:39:34. > :39:37.people. I have spoken to businesses large and small and their
:39:38. > :39:41.representatives. I am listening to those businesses, their anxieties
:39:42. > :39:46.and their concerns. Do you believe the words you uttered a few weeks
:39:47. > :39:51.ago or not? I believe the reality that is in front of me. Do you think
:39:52. > :39:57.we are heading for a recession and the loss of half a million jobs? If
:39:58. > :40:02.we all work together, we can avoid many of those things that were
:40:03. > :40:06.forecast. We have a chance to do that. You were part of Project Fear.
:40:07. > :40:10.You were warning people of things that were going to happen. You were
:40:11. > :40:15.being dishonest during that time. You said there would be half a
:40:16. > :40:29.million jobs lost. Now you are not saying that. I think it is wrong to
:40:30. > :40:31.accuse anyone of dishonesty. It was a robust campaign with lots of
:40:32. > :40:34.emotions on both sides. The campaign is over. April have made up their
:40:35. > :40:37.minds and the instructions have been issued. We will come together to
:40:38. > :40:40.make this work for the country. On the Today Programme, you said that
:40:41. > :40:45.house prices would fall and we would lose half a million jobs in this
:40:46. > :40:51.country, GDP would go down and so would- -- so would house prices. Did
:40:52. > :41:00.you not mean it? What I meant were all the issues that came up in the
:41:01. > :41:06.campaign. That is over. Businesses provide all the jobs in our country.
:41:07. > :41:10.I want to provide even more jobs. It is a time for reassurance for
:41:11. > :41:15.businesses. My message to businesses is that there is no need to be
:41:16. > :41:21.panicking. We have to have a calm approach, which is what we have seen
:41:22. > :41:26.since then. And forget the things we said during the referendum campaign?
:41:27. > :41:32.Our economic fundamentals remain strong. They are strong enough to
:41:33. > :41:36.weather any short-term market volatility. Nothing will change for
:41:37. > :41:41.at least two years, so businesses can plan around that. Let's look at
:41:42. > :41:49.the opportunities this throws up. Businesses will have talent is, but
:41:50. > :41:53.yes, they will have opportunities. There is no point anyone taking
:41:54. > :41:59.sides any more. The decision is made. Everyone in government is
:42:00. > :42:04.focused on making this work. There will be a new Prime Minister in
:42:05. > :42:10.October. The Prime Minister can make key decisions. Right now, we have a
:42:11. > :42:13.job to do. I'm getting on with it. Your party has to choose a new
:42:14. > :42:18.leader. Does it have to be someone from the Brexit side of the
:42:19. > :42:24.argument? We have good people on both side of the argument. It is a
:42:25. > :42:29.decision that MPs will make first of all, and then the party at large.
:42:30. > :42:34.The good thing for the Conservatives is that there's lots of talent in
:42:35. > :42:37.the party. The Prime Minister said he couldn't do it because he didn't
:42:38. > :42:42.believe in the way that the country was going to do. He didn't want to
:42:43. > :42:48.put a bomb under the economy. You and your colleagues are going to put
:42:49. > :42:53.that bomb and pull the trigger. Whoever becomes Prime Minister in
:42:54. > :42:58.October has momentous decisions to make. They have to carry a whole
:42:59. > :43:02.country with them, not just the Conservative Party but the
:43:03. > :43:06.opposition too. All sorts of organisations. That is going to be a
:43:07. > :43:12.momentous job, and we have the talent in the party to do that. This
:43:13. > :43:16.has been a terrible few days for the Prime Minister, a personal tragedy,
:43:17. > :43:24.in a sense. A few words about the Prime Minister, who you know well. I
:43:25. > :43:27.am very sad about what has happened. He has been a great Prime Minister.
:43:28. > :43:33.Just look at his achievements. He brought our economy back from the
:43:34. > :43:38.brink over the last few years. He has made social reforms, he has made
:43:39. > :43:41.strides with welfare. I am sad to see and go. Since he made his
:43:42. > :43:47.decision yesterday, the Bull have been coming up to me and saying, I
:43:48. > :43:52.didn't vote for him but I was proud to have him as my Prime Minister. It
:43:53. > :43:58.is a big change for the country. When should we trigger Article 50?
:43:59. > :44:02.That will be a decision for the next Prime Minister. What David Cameron
:44:03. > :44:06.said was right. There's no need to decide that now. Eventually the
:44:07. > :44:11.country will have to do it. We want to take the time to make these
:44:12. > :44:16.decisions. We don't want haste. There is a sense at the moment that
:44:17. > :44:21.there was no kind of leadership in this country. We are drifting.
:44:22. > :44:25.Business really dislikes that. Businesses want to see more certain
:44:26. > :44:31.sea. They are concerned about some of the changes that will take place.
:44:32. > :44:35.Leadership is there. There is no vacuum here. I am getting on with my
:44:36. > :44:41.job, as is the Chancellor and my other colleagues. The government
:44:42. > :44:44.will stay in place, as will the Cabinet, until October. The new
:44:45. > :44:50.leader will come in and he or she will put in a new government. It is
:44:51. > :44:54.business as usual. Speaking of the Chancellor, do you know what has
:44:55. > :44:59.happened to him? He's been getting on with his job. Have you spoken to
:45:00. > :45:03.him since the vote, and does he intend to stay on as Chancellor?
:45:04. > :45:12.Of course I have been in touch with him. We run two big economic
:45:13. > :45:15.industries. Is he going to stay on as Chancellor? That is not a
:45:16. > :45:19.decision for me. You must have asked him. You can't have had a
:45:20. > :45:25.conversation with him without asking! That is not a question for
:45:26. > :45:30.me. I want the entire cabinet to stay on, we have a period of
:45:31. > :45:35.instability, this is a big decision for the country, and people want to
:45:36. > :45:38.see stability. So when will we see him next, do you think? Invite him
:45:39. > :45:43.on the programme and see what happens! We have, he wouldn't come.
:45:44. > :45:48.Thank you for climbing out of your foxhole this morning. Thank you.
:45:49. > :45:50.Hilary Benn has long been a quiet critic of Jeremy Corbyn's
:45:51. > :45:53.leadership, but this morning it does look as if a full-scale
:45:54. > :45:55.coup against the Labour leader is under way.
:45:56. > :45:57.Mr Benn was sacked overnight for disloyalty, and he joins me now.
:45:58. > :46:05.Good morning. It has been a short night for you, I apologise. Just
:46:06. > :46:11.talk us through what happened in the small hours of the night. Can I say
:46:12. > :46:15.first of all that this has been a difficult decision for me, because I
:46:16. > :46:18.agreed to serve in Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet, I didn't vote for
:46:19. > :46:21.him but I thought we have a responsibility to support him as the
:46:22. > :46:26.elected leader of the Labour Party, as I have supported every Labour
:46:27. > :46:31.leader since I was elected to Parliament. That there has been
:46:32. > :46:39.growing concern about his leadership, and I said to him that I
:46:40. > :46:43.no longer had confidence... To him first? I no longer had confidence in
:46:44. > :46:46.his leadership, and he dismissed me from the Shadow Cabinet, which is
:46:47. > :46:49.understandable, and I thanked him for having given me the opportunity
:46:50. > :46:57.to serve as Shadow Foreign Secretary. But the position is this.
:46:58. > :47:01.At this absolutely critical time for our country following the EU
:47:02. > :47:05.referendum result, the Labour Party needs strong and effective
:47:06. > :47:08.leadership to hold the Government to account as we take decisions of huge
:47:09. > :47:14.importance for the future of our country. We don't currently have
:47:15. > :47:17.that, and there is no confidence that we will be able to win a
:47:18. > :47:24.general election as long as Jeremy Renner Ainsley do, and I felt it was
:47:25. > :47:28.important to say that. -- as long as Jeremy remains leader. We have set
:47:29. > :47:31.Heidi Alexander announce her resignation this morning, rumours of
:47:32. > :47:35.others to follow. You have been talking to these people. Will we see
:47:36. > :47:43.more resignations? Of course, members of the Shadow Cabinet, as
:47:44. > :47:48.you would expect in the aftermath of the friend, it is up to each person
:47:49. > :47:54.to make their decision. I made mine, and I made my views clear to Jeremy.
:47:55. > :47:58.He is a good and decent man, but he is not a leader, and that is the
:47:59. > :48:04.problem. You call him, presumably? I did. When you called him, you knew
:48:05. > :48:08.that he would therefore have to fire you. You cannot call your leader and
:48:09. > :48:12.say you have no confidence in him and then carry on. I wasn't entirely
:48:13. > :48:16.surprised, but it was important I had that conversation with him
:48:17. > :48:21.Thomert and he took his decision, as he is entitled to do. Do you accept
:48:22. > :48:25.that what you did was disloyal? I said what I believed to be true, and
:48:26. > :48:30.I think in life and in politics, it is extremely important. I have been
:48:31. > :48:36.a member of the Labour Party for 45 years, and like lots of people, I
:48:37. > :48:40.have devoted my political and a lot of my personal life to it, and that
:48:41. > :48:46.I think things are not working, I have a wider responsibility to the
:48:47. > :48:50.party that I love to speak out. Although a number of people will say
:48:51. > :48:54.this is not an ideal time, there is never an ideal time, but it isn't
:48:55. > :48:58.working, and therefore I felt it was important to speak out. Let's talk a
:48:59. > :49:01.little bit about the timing. It was less than a year ago that Jeremy
:49:02. > :49:06.Corbyn was elected leader on a massive landslide vote inside the
:49:07. > :49:11.Labour Party by ordinary Labour members, trade unionists and others.
:49:12. > :49:14.And now it appears there is a coup against him by parliamentarians, who
:49:15. > :49:18.are much smaller in numbers, and this is happening at a time of
:49:19. > :49:21.national crisis when the Conservative Party are tearing
:49:22. > :49:25.themselves apart, many would say, and an election looms quite quickly.
:49:26. > :49:29.Isn't this the worst possible timing to be doing this? I wanted Jeremy
:49:30. > :49:34.Dean be able to succeed, that is why I agreed to serve in the Shadow
:49:35. > :49:36.Cabinet. Not everybody who had previously been in positions of
:49:37. > :49:42.responsibility agreed to do so, but it has become clear that he is not
:49:43. > :49:46.succeeding, and there is never an ideal time, I recognise that, and I
:49:47. > :49:51.understand that there will be those in the party who are very, very
:49:52. > :49:55.unhappy about this, but we have a wider duty to the party, and I think
:49:56. > :49:58.the country needs a strong and effective labour opposition. Can you
:49:59. > :50:03.walk us through the next few days? Whether or not we get more
:50:04. > :50:06.resignations, there is a Parliamentary party meeting on
:50:07. > :50:10.Monday, the possibility of a secret ballot on Tuesday on a motion of no
:50:11. > :50:17.confidence which Ann Coffey and Margaret Hodge laid down. Ultimately
:50:18. > :50:21.it is the Jeremy to make his own decision and four other members of
:50:22. > :50:27.the Cabinet, the front bench, to decide what they are going to do.
:50:28. > :50:31.But what we need more than anything else is strong leadership to deal
:50:32. > :50:34.with the challenge that the country faces, because the decisions you
:50:35. > :50:39.have just been discussing with Sajid Javid, Article 50, personally on
:50:40. > :50:43.that, I think we need to work out what kind of relationship we want to
:50:44. > :50:46.have with Europe. It is very important that we continue to have
:50:47. > :50:50.access to the single market. It is clear that in the referendum, the
:50:51. > :50:54.majority sent us a message about free movement, and we have to accept
:50:55. > :50:57.the decision of the referendum, although I am sorry about the
:50:58. > :51:02.outcome. Is there any possibility of the Labour Party at an election, as
:51:03. > :51:05.the Liberal Democrats seem to be doing, to say, we are standing to
:51:06. > :51:09.the election on the basis that we think the decision to leave the EU
:51:10. > :51:13.was a catastrophe, and we are not going to implement it if we are
:51:14. > :51:17.elected and do our best to frustrated? I think we have to
:51:18. > :51:22.respect the democratic decision and the democratic will of the British
:51:23. > :51:27.people... I'm glad you said that. I think it is important. However sad
:51:28. > :51:32.we may be about the outcome. The decision has been taken, we have to
:51:33. > :51:35.make the best of it. We have to heal the wounds that have been created by
:51:36. > :51:38.the campaign and bring the nation together, because a nation that is
:51:39. > :51:43.divided on such a fundamental issue is not good for the future of our
:51:44. > :51:47.country. Have you decided yourself whether to stand for the leader of
:51:48. > :51:52.the Labour Party? I am not going to stand, and I haven't taken the
:51:53. > :51:55.decision I did because I wanted to, I did it because I think it was the
:51:56. > :51:59.right thing to do because I care about the future of the party we
:52:00. > :52:03.have committed our lives to. In some respects, this seems like a futile
:52:04. > :52:07.coup attempt, because whatever the party decides to do this week, even
:52:08. > :52:10.if they decide overwhelmingly they don't have confidence in their
:52:11. > :52:14.leader, that decision has to go back to the mass membership of the party
:52:15. > :52:17.who, as we know from the polls, are still vehemently, enthusiast Italy
:52:18. > :52:22.in favour of Jeremy Corbyn, so whatever happens in parliament, the
:52:23. > :52:26.Labour Party will choose Jeremy Corbyn again, won't it? It depends
:52:27. > :52:31.on whether Jeremy chooses to step down, or whether he chooses to fight
:52:32. > :52:34.again. But I would also say to you, Andrew, from conversations on the
:52:35. > :52:38.doorstep and with Labour Party members, there are people who voted
:52:39. > :52:45.for Jeremy Lomas year who are now saying, it is not working, is it?
:52:46. > :52:49.And I think the party will reflect on that. In the end we have to
:52:50. > :52:52.decide if we want to be an effective political force capable of winning
:52:53. > :52:57.support. We have to win support from people who didn't vote for us in
:52:58. > :53:01.2015. A poll today says just under one third of the people who voted
:53:02. > :53:04.for us in 2015 said they wouldn't do so now, and that would be
:53:05. > :53:07.catastrophic for the party as well as for the country, because we need
:53:08. > :53:12.a stronger defective Labour Party. And looking at what happened in this
:53:13. > :53:17.referendum campaign, a lot of those people will go to Ukip? That remains
:53:18. > :53:22.to be seen, but we have to show that we have listened to the message,
:53:23. > :53:25.that the majority, the 52%, have sent us. There are a number of
:53:26. > :53:31.reasons to do with that to do with the EU, sovereignty, immigration was
:53:32. > :53:34.an issue on the doorstep. Also communities have seen profound
:53:35. > :53:39.change, insecurity, all jobs disappearing, worrying about the
:53:40. > :53:42.future, housing for their children. These are the challenges we face as
:53:43. > :53:46.a generation, and the Labour Party has to show that we have understood
:53:47. > :53:49.and we will come forward with policies that will help to deal with
:53:50. > :53:53.all of this. All that being the case, do you think Jeremy Corbyn
:53:54. > :53:57.should now resigned? I no longer have confidence in him, and I think
:53:58. > :54:01.the right thing for him to do would be to take that decision, but that
:54:02. > :54:05.is a matter for him, just as the decision that I have taken has been
:54:06. > :54:11.a matter for me. Do you have a candidate in mind to replace him?
:54:12. > :54:15.No, I don't. This is not about that. If there is a leadership election,
:54:16. > :54:18.that will be a decision the Labour Party members, and each of us will
:54:19. > :54:23.have a vote. This is about telling the truth that is increasingly
:54:24. > :54:28.widely felt that the leadership that we currently have is not working,
:54:29. > :54:31.and in those circumstances, we would not be doing our job if we didn't
:54:32. > :54:35.say that openly and honestly, and that is what I have done. If he is
:54:36. > :54:39.trounced in this vote of no-confidence next week, it happens,
:54:40. > :54:43.do you think it is over for him then? I think it is very difficult
:54:44. > :54:48.for the leader of any political party to survive a vote of
:54:49. > :54:53.no-confidence of the members of Parliament that he is leading, but
:54:54. > :54:56.we will have to see what happens. We are in a very unstable position
:54:57. > :54:59.where we could have the leader not supported by many of his own MPs but
:55:00. > :55:03.supported by the party in the country. Wouldn't you need some kind
:55:04. > :55:06.of new structure in the Labour Party to deal with that? I don't think
:55:07. > :55:10.that is an issue to talk about today. The fact is we have to deal
:55:11. > :55:13.with the situation we find ourselves in. We had the referendum campaign,
:55:14. > :55:19.and I don't blame Jeremy Chardy outcome, but I think people saw that
:55:20. > :55:26.he didn't bring a great deal of enthusiasm to the task. -- I don't
:55:27. > :55:29.blame Jeremy for the outcome. Some people on the Corbin side of the
:55:30. > :55:34.argument say that you are leading a coup against him. I wouldn't
:55:35. > :55:39.describe it as that myself. How would you describe it? I have come
:55:40. > :55:44.to the conclusion that I no longer have confidence, and you have to be
:55:45. > :55:46.honest about that, and therefore I was saying to him I couldn't
:55:47. > :55:50.continue to serve, and he dismissed me, and that is absolutely his
:55:51. > :55:55.right. And it is not surprising that he did so. And it is for others to
:55:56. > :55:58.take their own decision, but if this is the conclusion you reach about a
:55:59. > :56:02.party that we care so much about, then I think the right thing to do
:56:03. > :56:05.is to be straightforward and open about it, and consequences will
:56:06. > :56:08.unfold. Hilary Benn, thank you very much indeed for coming in to talk to
:56:09. > :56:11.us this morning. Thank you very much.
:56:12. > :56:13.Of the senior Cabinet ministers who turned
:56:14. > :56:15.on David Cameron to support Brexit, Iain Duncan Smith was out
:56:16. > :56:18.of the traps first and remains a hugely influential figure among
:56:19. > :56:29.He was followed by the Justice Secretary Michael Gove and then
:56:30. > :56:33.Boris Johnson. We haven't heard much from them, so what is the plan now?
:56:34. > :56:36.Iain Duncan Smith, good morning. Can I ask first of all about some of the
:56:37. > :56:41.promises made by your side of the argument. Is the ?350 million we
:56:42. > :56:46.were told would go to the NHS going to go to the NHS? That was an
:56:47. > :56:49.extrapolation of the ?19.1 billion, the total amount of money that last
:56:50. > :56:54.year we gave across to the European Union. Your side said it was all
:56:55. > :56:58.going to go to the NHS. What we actually said was that a significant
:56:59. > :57:02.amount of it would go to the NHS, and that is going to be down to the
:57:03. > :57:08.Government, but that is what will happen. So that ?350 million will go
:57:09. > :57:12.to the NHS? Some of it will go to the NHS, but there are also things
:57:13. > :57:16.like agriculture that are part of that, it is never total, but it is a
:57:17. > :57:21.commitment that we will stand by. On the other one is the migration
:57:22. > :57:26.commitment. I want to get onto that, but I want to carry on with this one
:57:27. > :57:30.first. If all of that ?350 million, almost all of it, goes to the NHS to
:57:31. > :57:35.build a hospital every week or whatever it is going to be, that
:57:36. > :57:38.means that quite a lot of money in regional and structural funds which
:57:39. > :57:41.are included in that, which goes to Cornwall, Wales, other parts of the
:57:42. > :57:49.country, universities, can't go to those... What was said at the time,
:57:50. > :57:52.we hand over ?19.1 billion, half of which is gone into the European
:57:53. > :57:57.Union, and other bits come back correct it by the European Union. So
:57:58. > :58:01.we said throughout that we would stand by some critical areas, those
:58:02. > :58:06.areas that are being funded in structured and reasonable funds --
:58:07. > :58:12.regional funds, we wouldn't be losing half our money, and we would
:58:13. > :58:14.stand by commitments made to things like agriculture. The rest were a
:58:15. > :58:19.series of possibilities beyond what we could do with the commitment. Is
:58:20. > :58:26.how much of the 350 is going to the NHS? Of the money that we give when
:58:27. > :58:30.it never comes back, a large share. But the other half of the 350? Let
:58:31. > :58:37.me remind you about your posters. You suggested in your posters. Let's
:58:38. > :58:42.give our NHS the ?350 million the EU takes every week. That is pretty
:58:43. > :58:45.explicit. And that is down to the Government and what proportion they
:58:46. > :58:48.want to do. But the point everyone should bear in mind is that that
:58:49. > :58:52.money which goes to the European Union, that comes back, that money
:58:53. > :58:57.now is able to be spent on a priority like the NHS, with other
:58:58. > :59:04.money that had already committed... But it won't be ?350 million. That
:59:05. > :59:12.is a promise broken. I said that the lions share... You wrote it on the
:59:13. > :59:17.side of buses! It will be a lot more money for the NHS, that is the key
:59:18. > :59:21.point. Let's move on to immigration. Daniel Hannan, an important part of
:59:22. > :59:24.the Leave campaign, said there was no promise to get immigration
:59:25. > :59:29.sharply down, which was a surprise to a lot of us. We'll immigration
:59:30. > :59:32.now come down sharply? I'm not sure what he actually said, that he is
:59:33. > :59:36.the commitment. The Government itself stood on a manifesto pledge
:59:37. > :59:40.to get migration down to tens of thousands, and I stood believing
:59:41. > :59:43.that is the case, I think you should work to deliver your manifesto
:59:44. > :59:47.pledges. During the course of this campaign, this was a big issue, and
:59:48. > :59:51.I said consistently throughout the what we need to do is get control of
:59:52. > :59:55.our borders, and the anyway to do that is to leave the European Union,
:59:56. > :59:59.it is a red light area for us, and then we are in a much better
:00:00. > :00:02.position to achieve that in objective of bringing down migration
:00:03. > :00:05.to tens of thousands within this Parliament. I will stand by that, I
:00:06. > :00:10.believe my Government should stand by that, and that is what I fought
:00:11. > :00:14.that referendum on. So we will see a sharp decline in the EU side of
:00:15. > :00:19.migration to this country, and presumably an Australian -based
:00:20. > :00:22.points system? It is now the job of Government to ensure that what they
:00:23. > :00:26.actually have is a clear target for overall numbers, which has been
:00:27. > :00:30.missing for some time, partly because we don't have the control
:00:31. > :00:34.over the European end of migration, but also because I suspect the other
:00:35. > :00:38.side of we have been less clear about the points-based system about
:00:39. > :00:41.bringing in talent and not allowing so many low-paid low skilled workers
:00:42. > :00:44.to come in, and we need to bear down on that, because that is one of the
:00:45. > :00:51.big issues. But there will be a points system? That is what I
:00:52. > :00:56.believe is the right way to do it. And what about the VAT cut? My point
:00:57. > :01:02.about migration is this, we have a manifesto commitment was not being
:01:03. > :01:06.delivered on before, and the biggest part of that, part of that problem,
:01:07. > :01:09.is that we did not control our borders, and now we have that
:01:10. > :01:13.opportunity when we leave to deliver on that. In the meantime, we should
:01:14. > :01:15.be trying to deliver on that anyway, because that is absolutely what we
:01:16. > :01:24.got elected on. Currently, your side of the argument
:01:25. > :01:30.in the Conservative Party does not have a majority in the House of
:01:31. > :01:35.Commons. Are you going to get it through the House of Commons? The
:01:36. > :01:40.main message I want to take to my colleagues is that we have had this
:01:41. > :01:46.debate. It was robust, and angry at times. It is the nature of
:01:47. > :01:51.referenda. They do divide families and communities. The key point is we
:01:52. > :01:55.are in government. We have a set of commitments already made to the
:01:56. > :01:58.British people. The referendum was clear. The British people have said
:01:59. > :02:04.they want to leave the European Union. Instead of raking over the
:02:05. > :02:08.coals of this now for days and days, I say to colleagues on either side
:02:09. > :02:11.of this argument that our job is to come together and deliver on the
:02:12. > :02:16.commitment to leave the European Union. There are a whole series of
:02:17. > :02:21.other obligations to come, such as red lines over border controls. They
:02:22. > :02:26.are part of it. You say there is a complication because we don't hold a
:02:27. > :02:32.majority. The Conservative Party is in a majority in the House of
:02:33. > :02:36.Commons. There are some Labour MPs who believe this should be delivered
:02:37. > :02:40.on, as do I. There is a significant sense that the government itself has
:02:41. > :02:44.a majority. There are some who don't want to see it through, but there
:02:45. > :02:49.are others... We have an obligation to deliver on the British people's
:02:50. > :02:54.verdict. That means that no matter what your view... I said publicly
:02:55. > :02:57.that if the view was that we should remain, I would support that, and
:02:58. > :03:03.that would be the end of the debate for me. It is about ending the
:03:04. > :03:06.debate and getting on with it. Your party needs to choose a new leader.
:03:07. > :03:11.Do you think that the new leader has to come from the Brexit side of the
:03:12. > :03:17.art and? It is clear in my mind, that whoever takes up the job... By
:03:18. > :03:21.the way, let me say that I am very sad that the Prime Minister has
:03:22. > :03:27.taken this decision. I have said that I wanted him to stay for
:03:28. > :03:31.stability, and he has done a very good job through some tough times.
:03:32. > :03:35.But the main point is it would be very difficult for the public who
:03:36. > :03:40.have voted for leaving the European Union to find that they then had a
:03:41. > :03:44.Prime Minister who was opposed to leaving the European Union. It is
:03:45. > :03:48.quite clear that at least the leadership end of it, but I would
:03:49. > :03:53.like all the others to come together. So you don't think that
:03:54. > :03:56.someone like Theresa May could be a plausible candidate? It has to be
:03:57. > :04:08.someone like yourself or Michael Gove? I'm not standing! So it is
:04:09. > :04:13.Boris Johnson or Michael Gove? At the end of it all, my sense is that
:04:14. > :04:17.there is a clear decision, and what has to happen is delivering on that.
:04:18. > :04:22.Somebody who has been involved in that clearly has to be the case. The
:04:23. > :04:26.government had a view, which was to remain. We need to change that
:04:27. > :04:30.position and actually deliver on this very clear mandate from the
:04:31. > :04:35.British people and stop raking over the coals. During the campaign we
:04:36. > :04:41.were told again and again by people over your side of the argument that
:04:42. > :04:45.this would be a mature, benign negotiation with European leaders.
:04:46. > :04:49.They seem to be in a very, very different mood today. I'm
:04:50. > :04:54.fascinated. We would told that there would be serious consequences for
:04:55. > :04:59.the UK. The market fell, the market came back to where it was in
:05:00. > :05:03.February. Listening to what European leaders have been saying, which was
:05:04. > :05:07.raised by Tim Montgomery in the course of your newspaper review,
:05:08. > :05:11.that there is a seismic issue taking place across the European Union.
:05:12. > :05:15.Germany has slapped down the president of the European Union, or
:05:16. > :05:21.the Council, by saying, of course we have to sort this out that the UK.
:05:22. > :05:28.We want to get on with it. And we should trigger Article 50 quickly?
:05:29. > :05:31.Whether it is Article 50, or a mixture of European and domestic
:05:32. > :05:38.legislation... We need to get going on the shape this negotiation takes.
:05:39. > :05:43.That is up to the new leader. I want to bring colleagues together. I am
:05:44. > :05:48.doing so over the next few days. I want to look to businessmen, to QCs
:05:49. > :05:52.who are clear on legal ramifications, and start to build
:05:53. > :06:00.the position going forward. That is the legal bit. Last question. Nigel
:06:01. > :06:04.Farage thinks that he should be part of the negotiation team. Do you
:06:05. > :06:10.accept that he has the right, after all of those folks, to be their too?
:06:11. > :06:16.I accept that Ukip played a part in the process. I accept there is a
:06:17. > :06:21.Ukip MP who is part of parliament. I am happy to discuss with Ukip about
:06:22. > :06:26.what their expectations are. But the government itself actually dictates
:06:27. > :06:30.how this will happen. Are you sure there is not an establishment stitch
:06:31. > :06:40.up to stop wrecks it happening? A lot of voters would want Ukip to be
:06:41. > :06:45.represented at the top table. They would have that expectation. But we
:06:46. > :06:48.have got to get on with getting the structure right. Europe is now ready
:06:49. > :06:52.to talk about having free trade deals. We should move on to that as
:06:53. > :06:55.as soon as possible. Thanks for joining us today.
:06:56. > :06:58.In modern Britain there is no more over-reproduced,
:06:59. > :07:01.more cliched national motto than Keep Calm and Carry On.
:07:02. > :07:03.And never a moment when we required it more.
:07:04. > :07:06.And now, over to Andrew Neil at Westminster.