:00:00. > :00:08.There hasn't been a week like it at Westminster in my lifetime -
:00:09. > :00:11.political assassination, treachery,
:00:12. > :00:14.and the herding of bewildered and frightened MPs,
:00:15. > :00:19.who's going to be the next Prime Minister?
:00:20. > :00:42.who really wants that job - though he's always told us he didn't -
:00:43. > :00:48.of destroying the career of his good friend Boris Johnson.
:00:49. > :00:59.And by a dark horse coming up fast on the rails, Andrea Leadsom.
:01:00. > :01:02.Now, don't forget, with the enormous lead Theresa May has already built
:01:03. > :01:08.up, chances are only one of them can make it to the final ballot.
:01:09. > :01:11.But Labour's in at least as much chaos as the Tories.
:01:12. > :01:15.I'm joined by the man who defeated militants back in the 1980s,
:01:16. > :01:17.Neil Kinnock, and modern Labour's ultimate power broker,
:01:18. > :01:22.Len McCluskey, leader of the Unite union.
:01:23. > :01:25.Here to review the papers, Iain Dale, Conservative commentator
:01:26. > :01:27.and radio presenter, Corbyn-supporting journalist,
:01:28. > :01:32.Rachel Shabi, and Philip Collins, the Times columnist.
:01:33. > :01:35.And on this weekend of footballing triumph for Wales, how else
:01:36. > :01:38.could we end the show but with the anthem which has
:01:39. > :01:48.James Dean Bradfield of the Manic Street Preachers is
:01:49. > :01:54.here to perform Stronger Together, C'mon Wales.
:01:55. > :01:56.So, lots to come, - but first the news,
:01:57. > :02:02.In the latest development in the Conservative leadership
:02:03. > :02:05.contest, two rivals of the frontrunner, Theresa May,
:02:06. > :02:07.have criticised suggestions she should be appointed
:02:08. > :02:09.without a ballot of party members taking place.
:02:10. > :02:12.Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom, who both campaigned to leave the EU,
:02:13. > :02:14.have also questioned whether the next Prime
:02:15. > :02:19.Minister should come from the defeated Remain camp.
:02:20. > :02:22.The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, has issued another defiant message
:02:23. > :02:24.to those within his party who are putting him under
:02:25. > :02:29.Writing in the Sunday Mirror, Mr Corbyn urges his critics
:02:30. > :02:31.to "respect the democracy of the party", whose members
:02:32. > :02:36.overwhelmingly voted for him in last September's leadership contest.
:02:37. > :02:38.Mr Corbyn writes that 60,000 people have joined Labour in
:02:39. > :02:45.The First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, has demanded the UK
:02:46. > :02:48.government immediately guarantees the status of EU nationals
:02:49. > :02:54.She said the referendum meant that more than 170,000 EU citizens
:02:55. > :02:57.in Scotland were facing anxiety over what would happen to them
:02:58. > :03:02.and their families, but politicians at Westminster say more talks
:03:03. > :03:08.are needed before the issue can be clarified.
:03:09. > :03:11.Two days of national mourning have begun in Bangladesh after 20 people
:03:12. > :03:13.were killed in an attack on a cafe in Dhaka.
:03:14. > :03:16.Six attackers were shot dead when police ended the ten-hour
:03:17. > :03:22.So-called Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attack
:03:23. > :03:25.and said the gunmen deliberately targeted foreigners.
:03:26. > :03:28.The FBI has questioned the US presidential candidate
:03:29. > :03:33.Hillary Clinton over her use of emails while she was
:03:34. > :03:36.A spokesperson said it was a voluntary interview.
:03:37. > :03:39.The FBI is investigating Mrs Clinton and her aides over
:03:40. > :03:41.whether they mishandled classified information
:03:42. > :03:53.Yes, this has been easily the most dramatic, blood-spattered
:03:54. > :03:57.and spectacular week in British politics since I started reporting
:03:58. > :04:02.But for people's jobs and savings, there is also much more important
:04:03. > :04:08.I think it's too early to say whether or not so-called
:04:09. > :04:13.The markets jagged down in shock, but have now recovered -
:04:14. > :04:21.FTSE's best week since 2011 - and, connected of course,
:04:22. > :04:24.But a lower pound is, for exporters, excellent news.
:04:25. > :04:29.And other parts of the world want to take advantage of Brexit.
:04:30. > :04:32.Australia and New Zealand are already talking
:04:33. > :04:39.But - but - leading banks have been gathering to discuss how many people
:04:40. > :04:41.they are going to move from London to Dublin,
:04:42. > :04:47.George Osborne, who is still Chancellor of the Exchequer,
:04:48. > :04:52.still thinks we face a post-Brexit recession.
:04:53. > :04:55."that the country's going to be poorer".
:04:56. > :04:57.The university sector is extremely worried,
:04:58. > :04:59.and at least one airline, easyJet, is looking
:05:00. > :05:03.into moving to the Continent to protect its business.
:05:04. > :05:06.Basically, a lot of powerful business people are sitting
:05:07. > :05:14.So, nothing matters more than doing a deal to keep European markets
:05:15. > :05:19.as open as possible, and that can't be done
:05:20. > :05:21.until we have a proper, functioning government,
:05:22. > :05:25.and that can't happen until we have a new Prime Minister.
:05:26. > :05:34.Now back to the gory spectacle, and our papers review.
:05:35. > :05:41.Everyone knows what is on the front pages, and we have a fantastic
:05:42. > :05:46.spread of bright red ink and gore and cartoons. Who is going to start?
:05:47. > :05:50.In a week of cartoonish politics, let's start with the cartoon in the
:05:51. > :05:55.Sunday Times. You have got Theresa May kicking Michael Gove in the
:05:56. > :05:59.back, stabbing Boris Johnson and stabbing David Cameron. This was the
:06:00. > :06:01.week in which the modernisation of the Conservative Party, which began
:06:02. > :06:07.with Theresa May declaring that they were the nasty party all those years
:06:08. > :06:13.ago, has really eaten itself. She didn't say that, she said we are
:06:14. > :06:16.seen as the nasty party. It was a compliment, because it was the sense
:06:17. > :06:21.that people had of the Conservative Party, and it was the point at which
:06:22. > :06:27.they started to recover public estimation. And this week, that
:06:28. > :06:31.project has eaten itself like revolutions tend to. And the
:06:32. > :06:36.question is what happens next. Rachel, you have the Sunday Times
:06:37. > :06:43.front page, which is against the idea of a coronation. Yeah. Tory
:06:44. > :06:46.rivals unite to oppose coronation. The Leave candidates for the party
:06:47. > :06:52.leadership, Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom, who both feature in the
:06:53. > :06:59.Sunday Times today, are both saying, she is not representative. If the
:07:00. > :07:03.country voted to leave, you need a Brexit leader. And they don't want
:07:04. > :07:08.this process by which the Conservatives would somehow corral
:07:09. > :07:11.around Theresa May. The Conservative Party are quite ruthless and they
:07:12. > :07:15.don't really pay much heed to things like a democratic process of
:07:16. > :07:19.electing a leader. We will come to that later in terms of labour. But
:07:20. > :07:25.yes, a coronation would happen because everyone else dropped out,
:07:26. > :07:28.leaving only one candidate. That is unlikely. You can see the logic of
:07:29. > :07:35.it that in the interests of getting national unity and calming the
:07:36. > :07:42.markets. But nobody has mentioned that it was Theresa May in 2003 who
:07:43. > :07:47.said there have to be a ballot to elect Michael Howard. She was party
:07:48. > :07:52.chairman at the time and she insisted that there had to be a
:07:53. > :07:56.ratification. So I am not sure. I don't think this is coming from her
:07:57. > :08:00.camp. I don't think she wants a coronation. But you can see the
:08:01. > :08:06.logic of it. The most brutal front page was the Mail on Sunday. Gove is
:08:07. > :08:15.a political psychopath, says Rachel Johnson, Boris Johnson's sister. I
:08:16. > :08:18.to that in a second. Their headline is Hypocrite, and the Mail on Sunday
:08:19. > :08:23.have come out for Theresa May, just as the Daily Mail has, which is
:08:24. > :08:26.unusual because they usually disagree with each other. This is an
:08:27. > :08:35.odd story saying that because Andrea Leadsom, a few years ago said we
:08:36. > :08:40.shouldn't leave the EU... But it is a collective responsibility. She is
:08:41. > :08:45.quoted as saying that leaving the European Union would be an economic
:08:46. > :08:52.disaster. Which was the government policy at the time. So there was
:08:53. > :08:55.collective responsibility. All the time we are having this conversation
:08:56. > :09:02.about the Tory rivals, none of them has presented us with what we need.
:09:03. > :09:06.If we are leaving, what is the plan? How are we leaving? Do you want a
:09:07. > :09:11.Norway model? Do you want the single market? Can you not tell us so we
:09:12. > :09:15.know what is happening? To be fair to him, the man who has come nearest
:09:16. > :09:21.to a plan is Michael Gove, who has said we will not be in the single
:09:22. > :09:27.market and laid out his vision. What does that mean if we are not in the
:09:28. > :09:33.single market? He put his vision in the Sun. They have a very good
:09:34. > :09:36.interview with Michael Gove, where they lead on the fact that Boris
:09:37. > :09:40.Johnson now will not answer his calls. He is leaving lots of voice
:09:41. > :09:44.mail messages for his former friend Boris Johnson. And the poison that
:09:45. > :09:49.has been injected into Tory politics is clear. Michael Gove this week
:09:50. > :09:52.gave a speech which was very substantive and an odd speech for a
:09:53. > :09:56.leadership Lord, because it contained so much. His message is,
:09:57. > :10:03.let's not just talk about Europe, we have also got a country to run. In
:10:04. > :10:08.all of this, things are still going on. There are still a health
:10:09. > :10:13.service, education, welfare policies. Is anybody doing anything
:10:14. > :10:19.else? Michael Gove gave a 40 minute speech which was very detailed.
:10:20. > :10:21.Theresa May was quite detailed. Andrea Leadsom is launching
:10:22. > :10:26.tomorrow. She is on the front page of the Sunday Telegraph. It says she
:10:27. > :10:36.could be the next that show, except she never said that. -- the next
:10:37. > :10:40.Thatcher. I think this is a fresh face in the contest, which will be
:10:41. > :10:44.an advantage and disadvantage to her. She is not that well known, so
:10:45. > :10:48.she has to use interviews like the one you are about to do to project
:10:49. > :10:52.herself. I think she has the personality to do that. She is clear
:10:53. > :10:57.in her political background and ideology. It is very different from
:10:58. > :11:00.Theresa May's. You know the voluntary wing of the Conservative
:11:01. > :11:04.Party. What is your sense of how they are thinking? I was talking to
:11:05. > :11:07.a Conservative MP this morning who had held a social do in his
:11:08. > :11:11.consistency is much and he said there was little appetite for
:11:12. > :11:15.Michael Gove, that they viewed him as doing an Ed Miliband, who stabbed
:11:16. > :11:19.his brother in the back. They think Michael Gove has done something
:11:20. > :11:22.worse. Not only did he stabbed Boris Johnson, he stabbed David Cameron in
:11:23. > :11:25.the back as well. He said the majority were in favour of Theresa
:11:26. > :11:33.May, but they want to hear more from Andrea Leadsom. This line of the new
:11:34. > :11:37.Thatcher is all over the place. It is a lazy lion. Margaret Thatcher
:11:38. > :11:42.had been in Parliament for 16 years when she became leader of the
:11:43. > :11:46.Conservative Party -- a lazy line. She was a national figure. So to
:11:47. > :11:50.become Prime Minister five or six years after becoming a member of
:11:51. > :12:06.Parliament is extraordinary. Let me just interrupt. Before we get bogged
:12:07. > :12:09.down in this, the Observer editorial has made a good point, which is that
:12:10. > :12:15.after a week of chaos, who will save us from this parade of beautiful
:12:16. > :12:19.leaders? It is something that even Bush picked up on in the New
:12:20. > :12:26.Statesman as well. He said part of the reason why there is so much
:12:27. > :12:31.internal focus that you two seemed to enjoy talking about is because
:12:32. > :12:38.they are incapable of looking outwards. They don't have what it
:12:39. > :12:43.takes to lead us, which is worrying. It might be said that one of the
:12:44. > :12:48.woeful leaders is Jeremy Corbyn. It might be said that one of the woeful
:12:49. > :12:54.things is that he has an attempted coup by the PLP, which is out of
:12:55. > :12:59.touch with the membership. We have an interesting democratic problem
:13:00. > :13:05.for the Labour Party. The membership overwhelmingly back Jeremy Corbyn.
:13:06. > :13:12.But the voters and the MPs don't. So you have these two rival
:13:13. > :13:15.electorates. There is an important piece in the Sunday Mirror, where
:13:16. > :13:20.Jeremy Corbyn has a short piece in which he says for the first time
:13:21. > :13:28.that he will be a candidate if there is a challenge against him. As he
:13:29. > :13:33.puts it himself with unintended irony, I am going nowhere. If there
:13:34. > :13:37.is a challenge, he is trying to hang on until the Chilcot report on
:13:38. > :13:41.Wednesday, and he has made it plain that he will stand if anyone
:13:42. > :13:45.challenges him. If that happens, there is every chance he might win
:13:46. > :13:50.the subsequent election because of his popularity. At that point, the
:13:51. > :13:54.Labour Party may split, because 172 Labour MPs have declared no
:13:55. > :14:02.confidence in him. You cannot un-declare that once you have said
:14:03. > :14:05.it. This letter in the Mirror is him offering an amnesty. But the deal
:14:06. > :14:11.involves him being leader of the Labour Party. He is saying there is
:14:12. > :14:15.bad blood and let's get over it. We need to examine the reasons for him
:14:16. > :14:19.remaining. It is not because he has been bloody-minded and is hanging on
:14:20. > :14:24.for Chilcot. It is because he has a democratic mandate and a lot of
:14:25. > :14:31.people support not just him, but the policies he represents. It is the
:14:32. > :14:34.first time the British public has had an anti-austerity platform in a
:14:35. > :14:40.party, and that is more important than him. What do you think happens
:14:41. > :14:44.to the Labour Party if he is now pushed out in a parliamentary coup?
:14:45. > :14:51.I don't know how he could be pushed out. If he is strong-armed into
:14:52. > :14:57.standing down, but it is perceived that the MPs did it to him? But we
:14:58. > :15:03.are not understanding the reasons for him remaining. He is trying to
:15:04. > :15:06.democratise the party. He believes in grassroots democracy. He believes
:15:07. > :15:10.that that is how change happens. So the idea that he would be persuaded
:15:11. > :15:23.to do something so undemocratic, I don't see it. The Observer have this
:15:24. > :15:28.amazing story that Jeremy Corbyn's aides are refusing to let him have a
:15:29. > :15:35.meeting with Tom Watson, the elected deputy leader of the Labour Party. I
:15:36. > :15:40.find this astonishing. It is not true. It is by a reputable
:15:41. > :15:44.journalist. But they have denied it. You are in a pretty poor position if
:15:45. > :15:48.you will not even have a meeting with your deputy leader. There are a
:15:49. > :15:55.couple of other big stories, one of which is Europe. We have been
:15:56. > :15:59.talking about British politics, but this has European wide implications.
:16:00. > :16:06.We do love all the leadership stuff, but it is worth pointing out, as the
:16:07. > :16:10.Observer does, that the shenanigans here have a series of impacts in
:16:11. > :16:14.other countries too. There is a lot going on in Brussels and across
:16:15. > :16:19.Europe. The exit of Britain from the European Union will have a series of
:16:20. > :16:24.consequences for the European Union itself. There is a series of big
:16:25. > :16:27.questions which we must be careful not to lose as we worry over whether
:16:28. > :16:32.Andrea Leadsom could be Prime Minister.
:16:33. > :16:43.Rachel, if you can do the Chilcot inquiry in 30 seconds, we have time
:16:44. > :16:46.to talk about Caroline Aherne. Just to say the Chilcot inquiry is coming
:16:47. > :16:51.on Thursday, it has been written about in the mail saying it is
:16:52. > :16:58.overdue and he has cautioned against having a generic everyone wants to
:16:59. > :17:04.blame. He thinks we should focus on who was really responsible for what
:17:05. > :17:12.happened, in other words Tony Blair. Caroline Aherne's 's death all over
:17:13. > :17:19.the papers. Best moment? I loved it when she said to Barbra winced, are
:17:20. > :17:33.one of us, the great big film star but still, and as -- common as muck.
:17:34. > :17:37.She will be forever remembered as Mrs Merton but she did so much more
:17:38. > :17:51.than that. I watched the episode last night and Mrs Merton dates a
:17:52. > :17:53.bit. She was the voice of the Royle Family, and Gogglebox.
:17:54. > :17:56.Labour leaders battling the Left is a very familiar theme
:17:57. > :17:58.in the Labour Party, but to have a left-wing leader
:17:59. > :18:00.deserted by the majority of his parliamentary colleagues
:18:01. > :18:03.Neil Kinnock fought off militants back in the 1980s.
:18:04. > :18:05.How does he view Labour's predicament now?
:18:06. > :18:15.You have called on Jeremy Corbyn to go, but in a sense why should he? He
:18:16. > :18:19.has the backing of the membership with huge numbers of people coming
:18:20. > :18:24.onto the streets over the weekend saying must stay. There are lots of
:18:25. > :18:29.people outside Parliament who support him. It remains to be seen
:18:30. > :18:34.how many members of the Labour Party in the vote would support him
:18:35. > :18:38.because, as you will have seen from this morning and recent days'
:18:39. > :18:44.evidence, there has been a significant shift away from Jeremy
:18:45. > :18:48.and members across the country, including newly joined people, have
:18:49. > :18:54.got deep residual doubts about the possibility of him leaving the party
:18:55. > :19:00.to election victory. That means that he should reconsider his position on
:19:01. > :19:04.those grounds but in addition the constitution provides, very
:19:05. > :19:08.sensibly, for a party in parliament and also provides that the leader of
:19:09. > :19:16.the party must have a substantial amount of backing from Labour
:19:17. > :19:21.members of Parliament. I can read in a couple of seconds the provision in
:19:22. > :19:24.the party constitution, and that means that unless the leader can
:19:25. > :19:31.have that substantial support in parliament, then there should be a
:19:32. > :19:37.contest or the leader should consider his position and do his
:19:38. > :19:41.duty to the party and resign. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn needs a certain
:19:42. > :19:49.number of nominations to get onto the ballot paper? That happened to
:19:50. > :19:54.you when Tony Benn took you on. Yes, in 1988... It had faded in my memory
:19:55. > :20:00.to tell you the truth but because of current conditions I looked back at
:20:01. > :20:07.history. The situation was that the Labour movement accumulated
:20:08. > :20:12.nominations for Tony Benn, which satisfied the threshold in those
:20:13. > :20:19.days, and obviously I had to secure nominations. The actual figures were
:20:20. > :20:29.29 for Tony Benn, and 130 for myself. We went to the party and the
:20:30. > :20:35.party decided by 88.6%. You refer with a point! Yes, because I have
:20:36. > :20:39.looked back. Obviously you don't dwell on these things and keep
:20:40. > :20:44.looking back at it, but that's what happened. It meant there was a
:20:45. > :20:49.straight contest and the party decided with the constituency
:20:50. > :20:53.parties supporting me. The situation is different now and Corbyn
:20:54. > :20:56.supporters think that because he has such support outside Parliament he
:20:57. > :21:05.has absolute right to be on the ballot. The question is what if he
:21:06. > :21:12.wins again? This will just take a second, the provision of the chapter
:21:13. > :21:16.four Labour Party rules, where there is no vacancy nominations may be
:21:17. > :21:21.sought by potential challengers each year prior to the annual session of
:21:22. > :21:25.party conference. In this place, Mark these words, any nomination
:21:26. > :21:28.must be supported by 20% of the combined Commons members of the
:21:29. > :21:32.Parliamentary Labour Party and members of the European
:21:33. > :21:36.Parliamentary Labour Party. Nominations not attaining this
:21:37. > :21:43.threshold shall be null and void. In certain circumstances in which 172
:21:44. > :21:48.Labour MPs voted for the motion of no-confidence in Jeremy and only 40
:21:49. > :21:52.voted against, his position potently under the Constitution, under the
:21:53. > :21:56.rules of the Labour Party, under the Democratic provisions the Labour
:21:57. > :22:01.Party, and the common-sense provisions of the Labour Party that
:22:02. > :22:05.a leader must have substantial support in the Parliamentary party,
:22:06. > :22:11.obviously there is no basis on which Jeremy really could or should stay.
:22:12. > :22:16.What about all those people watching this programme who paid their ?3,
:22:17. > :22:23.very idealistic young people who back Jeremy courting, who said my
:22:24. > :22:28.say has been negated. Not at all, they are very welcome in the party
:22:29. > :22:32.and some of us have been at pains to express that emphatically because
:22:33. > :22:36.they provide a vibrancy, a potential for the future of this democratic
:22:37. > :22:41.socialist party that we were needing. Now then, they have got to
:22:42. > :22:45.then decide whether they are serious about putting their principles into
:22:46. > :22:51.power by democratic election under a leader that is credible in a party
:22:52. > :22:56.that is united or whether they actually joined up to a social
:22:57. > :23:01.protest movement that is content to complain and to turn up to the
:23:02. > :23:05.funerals of communities and industries while the Conservatives
:23:06. > :23:10.have yet more decades of power. That is the decision that comes before
:23:11. > :23:14.these people, who are serious about their politics which is why they
:23:15. > :23:17.joined, but they must understand and they do understand in their
:23:18. > :23:22.thousands that the purpose of being engaged in politics is to secure
:23:23. > :23:28.democratic power and Jeremy cannot do that. Alistair Campbell has
:23:29. > :23:34.joined on people to -- called on people to join the Labour Party to
:23:35. > :23:38.oppose Jeremy Corbyn. I have met several people in the course of this
:23:39. > :23:43.week as recently as yesterday who have joined explicitly for that,
:23:44. > :23:49.many of them Labour supporters throughout their adult lives, but
:23:50. > :23:53.now knowing they -- their participation can make a difference
:23:54. > :23:58.for the potential of the Labour Party securing power. I am about to
:23:59. > :24:02.talk to Len McCluskey who is effectively a big power broker these
:24:03. > :24:08.days so what is your message to him? Think about your members, which he
:24:09. > :24:13.constantly does. Recognise that sentiment in our union on the basis
:24:14. > :24:18.of polling evidence and the basis of acquaintance with members of the
:24:19. > :24:27.union know that they have moved away from Jeremy Corbyn, and if they take
:24:28. > :24:31.the stance that says to Jeremy for the sake of the party and its
:24:32. > :24:35.potential, for the sake of Democratic Socialism, Jeremy, you
:24:36. > :24:37.have to step down. Thank you for joining us today.
:24:38. > :24:41.But Peter Gibbs is here to tell us when summer
:24:42. > :24:50.I suppose disappointing summer weather one of the least surprising
:24:51. > :24:57.aspects of the week just gone but it has come good today. If you are
:24:58. > :25:02.lucky enough, you are in for a treat at Wimbledon so have a great day
:25:03. > :25:06.there. There is rain not too far away, just clipping into the south
:25:07. > :25:11.coast of England. That's where it will stay. Some showers for northern
:25:12. > :25:14.Scotland, some in Northern Ireland, southern Scotland and northern
:25:15. > :25:18.England as well but that leaves a big slice of the UK without any
:25:19. > :25:28.rain, with plenty of sunshine, lighter winds and as a result it
:25:29. > :25:33.will feel rather warm. Overnight most places dry. Some showers across
:25:34. > :25:36.the north-west of Scotland, fairly dry, temperatures dipping away but
:25:37. > :25:45.to similar levels than we saw last night. Tomorrow, the return of the
:25:46. > :25:48.rain. This time to Northern Ireland, to southern Scotland, northern parts
:25:49. > :25:54.of England as well. Still bright to the north of that, feeling quite
:25:55. > :25:58.fresh. To the south of it, fairly humid air being drawn in. It will
:25:59. > :26:02.feel quite warm and humid, but looking ahead the best I can say is
:26:03. > :26:09.probably more sunshine and a bit less rain.
:26:10. > :26:12.Well, that's all right. Today might go down as summer so enjoy it.
:26:13. > :26:14.Andrea Leadsom was one of Vote Leave's star players
:26:15. > :26:17.during the referendum, and is generally reckoned to have
:26:18. > :26:20.Buoyed by that success, the Energy Minister is now
:26:21. > :26:24.She's decided to run for the Tory leadership in her own right,
:26:25. > :26:26.rather than back another candidate, and she's with me now.
:26:27. > :26:34.Can I read to you something you said to the Hansard Society in 2013. You
:26:35. > :26:39.said, I will mail my colours to the mast here, I don't think the UK
:26:40. > :26:44.should leave the EU, I think it would be a disaster for our economy
:26:45. > :26:48.and lead to a decade of economic and political uncertainty at a time when
:26:49. > :26:55.the tectonic plates of global success and moving. Why was that
:26:56. > :26:59.Andrea Leadsom so wrong? It has been a journey. When I came into
:27:00. > :27:07.Parliament I had grown up as part of the EU and it is part of our DNA. I
:27:08. > :27:11.set up something called the Fresh Start Project, which took hundreds
:27:12. > :27:18.of hours of evidence about how the EU impacts on the UK from everything
:27:19. > :27:21.such as immigration to fisheries and so on. I travelled all across Europe
:27:22. > :27:29.with lots of Parliamentary colleagues to try and get a real
:27:30. > :27:33.decent fundamental reform of the EU. In that very same lecture, which you
:27:34. > :27:40.are obviously not quoting today, I was very clear that the UK's current
:27:41. > :27:43.situation was totally untenable and that the only way we could remain
:27:44. > :27:50.part of the EU was if we had fundamental reform. The status quo
:27:51. > :27:55.was not an option. I made clear in the rest of the speech what the sort
:27:56. > :27:58.of reforms should be. When the Prime Minister came back with his
:27:59. > :28:05.renegotiation, with the certainty of a referendum behind it lending power
:28:06. > :28:10.to his elbow, it was very clear the EU is just not reform the ball. That
:28:11. > :28:15.speech was in 2013 and things have moved on. The reason we have
:28:16. > :28:19.listened carefully to the whole speech is that nonetheless your
:28:20. > :28:23.fundamental point was, despite all of that stuff, coming out of the EU
:28:24. > :28:29.would be such a big shock we shouldn't do it. That has not
:28:30. > :28:33.changed, has it? I think it has. The risks of remaining in the EU
:28:34. > :28:38.massively magnified since around that time actually. As did the
:28:39. > :28:42.determination of the EU institutions to go further, faster. They have
:28:43. > :28:47.sacrificed a generation of southern European young people to up to 50%
:28:48. > :28:52.youth unemployment to poverty. Greece has lost 25% of her economy.
:28:53. > :28:57.We have this massive migration crisis south things fundamentally
:28:58. > :29:02.change but at the same time the UK's economy has been recovering. The
:29:03. > :29:06.Chancellor did a fantastic job. So you completely disagree with George
:29:07. > :29:11.Osborne who said we will be a poorer country as a result. Yes, I
:29:12. > :29:16.disagree. If you became leader, you wouldn't have him in your
:29:17. > :29:20.government, is that right? I'm not even slightly at that stage but I
:29:21. > :29:24.genuinely believe the next person to lead this country has to be somebody
:29:25. > :29:27.who believes in the opportunity of leaving the EU, who genuinely
:29:28. > :29:33.believes our place in the world could be so much better if we leave.
:29:34. > :29:37.So why should it be Andrea Leadsom? You had a lot of experience in
:29:38. > :29:40.banking before you came into politics but you are relatively
:29:41. > :29:46.inexperienced at top-flight politics. You have not been in the
:29:47. > :29:53.Cabinet, unlike Michael Gove or Liam Fox. Why you and not them? I
:29:54. > :29:56.absolutely believe that people who have real-world experience, I mean I
:29:57. > :30:01.have been in financial services for 25 years before coming into
:30:02. > :30:05.Parliament running enormous teams, small teams, start-up businesses,
:30:06. > :30:10.being part of a huge bank. I have also set up and run charities. I
:30:11. > :30:14.have a huge passion for the early years, for the real social justice
:30:15. > :30:19.agenda and I genuinely believe leadership qualities need people who
:30:20. > :30:24.profoundly believe in things. In a sense you are saying it is time for
:30:25. > :30:28.some outsiders, the politicians have screwed things up so bad it is time
:30:29. > :30:33.to bring people in from the outside. I'm not saying that at all. I
:30:34. > :30:38.genuinely want to do some things for our country to make it the greatest
:30:39. > :30:43.country on earth and I believe I have the experience of the real
:30:44. > :30:48.world as well as a good amount of experience in Government. I was city
:30:49. > :30:53.Minister for one year, I have been energy Minister for one year. I have
:30:54. > :30:57.a good deal of understanding about politics. We don't know much about
:30:58. > :31:01.your programme but you have said you would trigger article 50 to begin
:31:02. > :31:04.the negotiation to leave as soon as is humanly possible, is that because
:31:05. > :31:10.you fear that Brexit somehow won't happen?
:31:11. > :31:19.Is that she because you fear a stitch up? I don't think there is a
:31:20. > :31:24.stitch up. It is not about leaving the EU, it is about giving certainty
:31:25. > :31:28.to businesses and saying to the world, we're open for business. It
:31:29. > :31:32.is about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around
:31:33. > :31:39.competition, from EU migrants for your jobs. We just need to get on
:31:40. > :31:43.with it and make progress. The other side of the argument is that once
:31:44. > :31:47.the clock starts ticking, you have limited time to get the deal, and
:31:48. > :31:50.therefore you are in a weak opposition. That is why Michael Gove
:31:51. > :31:55.has said there is no hurry behind this, but you want the clock to
:31:56. > :32:01.start digging. Does that we can your negotiating position? I genuinely
:32:02. > :32:04.don't think so. I probably know more about the EU than most people in
:32:05. > :32:08.government right now, apart from some who have spent their whole
:32:09. > :32:13.careers looking at it, for whom I have an immense regard. I genuinely
:32:14. > :32:17.believe on trade with the EU, we currently trade tariff free. We had
:32:18. > :32:22.43 years aligning our goods and services to theirs. There are strong
:32:23. > :32:26.financial reasons to continue to trade tariff free. You have had a
:32:27. > :32:32.huge amount of support for your campaign already. My Twitter feed is
:32:33. > :32:37.crammed with it, but they are almost all Ukip people. Arron Banks wants
:32:38. > :32:40.to fund your campaign. Are you content to be the candidate where
:32:41. > :32:46.the Conservative Party and the Ukip party touch fingers? I don't
:32:47. > :32:51.recognise what you are saying. Support is pouring in from Ukip
:32:52. > :32:59.people. I don't know how you can say they are Ukip people. Arron Banks
:33:00. > :33:03.certainly is. He is one person. I have had support from people who
:33:04. > :33:07.say, I am traditionally a Labour voter, but if you got elected, I
:33:08. > :33:11.would vote for you. I don't think it is fair to say I am just being
:33:12. > :33:17.supported by Ukip. The undertone of your accusation is that those are
:33:18. > :33:24.not nice people. No, it is a friendly question. In answer to your
:33:25. > :33:27.friendly question, I am delighted by the wide range of support,
:33:28. > :33:33.particularly from young people, who say it is not true to say only older
:33:34. > :33:36.people wanted to leave. We see our future in the world. Would you have
:33:37. > :33:41.Nigel Farage on your negotiating team? He is the great victor of this
:33:42. > :33:46.in many respects. Many say he should not be pushed out by the West and
:33:47. > :33:54.star establishment. I don't want to get into who would do what. Many
:33:55. > :34:01.would say in this period of uncertainty, you could end this now
:34:02. > :34:04.and let Theresa May be the next Prime Minister. We would have a new
:34:05. > :34:09.government and we could get on with other things. Businesses would be
:34:10. > :34:12.much reassured. What is so important about getting Andrea Leadsom on the
:34:13. > :34:16.ticket that is worth putting the country through weeks of
:34:17. > :34:22.uncertainty? I would not frame it in the way you have. Theresa is a
:34:23. > :34:26.superb candidates, no question. But I genuinely believe the country
:34:27. > :34:30.needs to be led by someone who believes fervently and understands
:34:31. > :34:35.the opportunities of leaving the EU. People voted to leave. She
:34:36. > :34:41.understands, she said Brexit is Brexit, I get it. But somebody who
:34:42. > :34:46.says I have been told to leave so I will leave, with no enthusiasm, is
:34:47. > :34:50.very different to somebody who absolutely sees the sunlit uplands
:34:51. > :34:54.of leaving the EU, the prospects for our children, grandchildren and
:34:55. > :34:59.business of being open to the world. And secondly, I just don't think it
:35:00. > :35:02.would be right to have a coronation. People need to have a choice of
:35:03. > :35:07.candidates. David Cameron changed the political landscape when he
:35:08. > :35:13.published his tax returns. Will you do the same? O... Less. I am
:35:14. > :35:18.perfectly happy to publish my tax return is. I would not want to make
:35:19. > :35:22.MPs have to do that. I don't believe people should have to disclose
:35:23. > :35:26.everything. Now you are candidates for top office, would you publish it
:35:27. > :35:29.before the vote? I would have to think about it, but in principle, I
:35:30. > :35:36.have no problem with it. I don't want to set a sudden. Couldn't you
:35:37. > :35:38.just say yes? All right, yes! Thank you for joining us.
:35:39. > :35:40.The chorus of Labour MPs, activists and grandees calling
:35:41. > :35:42.for Jeremy Corbyn to go continues to mount.
:35:43. > :35:47.We heard earlier from Lord Kinnock, the last surviving former
:35:48. > :35:50.leader to add his voice, but one of Mr Corbyn's most loyal
:35:51. > :35:52.allies in the Labour movement is standing firm.
:35:53. > :35:54.Len McCluskey is the leader of Britain's trade union
:35:55. > :36:06.You are still in the position where despite everything, you think Jeremy
:36:07. > :36:10.Corbyn should stay and fight as the Labour leader? Yes, I do, and it is
:36:11. > :36:16.an helpful for ex-leaders to be wheeled out. Neil Kinnock is a nice
:36:17. > :36:19.man, but he was leader of the Labour Party for eight years and lost two
:36:20. > :36:24.elections. Ed Miliband led the Labour Party for five years and lost
:36:25. > :36:27.an election. Gordon Brown had 30 years at the top of our party,
:36:28. > :36:36.including Prime Minister, and lost an election. On that basis, you
:36:37. > :36:42.would be willing out Tony Blair. I will not rule out Tony Blair, but
:36:43. > :36:46.the willingness of grandees to be part of an edifying to is
:36:47. > :36:52.outrageous. This has been a political lynching of a decent man,
:36:53. > :36:58.undermined, it humiliated, attacked, in order to push him out. And the
:36:59. > :37:04.coup has failed. Jeremy Corbyn is made of stronger stuff. He is a man
:37:05. > :37:08.of steel and he has made it clear that he will not step down. The
:37:09. > :37:13.people doing this are not the usual suspects, the Blairite MPs, they are
:37:14. > :37:19.people like Angela Eagle, MPs on the left of the party. He has lost them
:37:20. > :37:23.as well. I am amazed that some of the MPs have fallen into a trap. I
:37:24. > :37:29.think they have been seduced by sinister forces. If the BBC want to
:37:30. > :37:33.do an investigatory programme of a company called Portland, feel free
:37:34. > :37:39.to do so. This is a PR company with strong links to Tony Blair and
:37:40. > :37:43.right-wing Labour MPs. We cannot be associated with words like sinister.
:37:44. > :37:48.They have been involved in this orchestrated coup, and it has
:37:49. > :37:53.failed. I am astonished that people have left their posts at the very
:37:54. > :37:57.time that we need to be scrutinising this Conservative government after
:37:58. > :38:02.Brexit. We need to know about our members' jobs. We need to know about
:38:03. > :38:08.employment rights, and Labour MPs should be fighting for us. But your
:38:09. > :38:14.own union seems to be turning against Jeremy Corbyn. That is not
:38:15. > :38:22.true. A pulse of 79% opposing. A poll of half a dozen people. Than
:38:23. > :38:26.have a new poll. Neil Kinnock's serious point is that a lot of your
:38:27. > :38:33.members are desperate for a Labour government. They feel their living
:38:34. > :38:38.standards have fallen, and that is best served by a Labour leader. That
:38:39. > :38:47.is why nine months ago, my union supported Jeremy Corbyn. It is not a
:38:48. > :38:50.long time. If you examine the real polls, we have had four by-elections
:38:51. > :38:55.that Labour have won and increase their majority in three of them
:38:56. > :38:59.considerably. We won the London mayoral election. Even the local
:39:00. > :39:03.elections in May, where people were expecting Jeremy to do badly, Labour
:39:04. > :39:08.did better than the Conservatives. That was the high watermark of Ed
:39:09. > :39:10.Miliband. That is the extraparliamentary case for keeping
:39:11. > :39:21.Jeremy Corbyn as leader, inside Parliament, you now have chaos. And
:39:22. > :39:26.it cannot carry on. It can't carry on. Let me make this important
:39:27. > :39:31.point. The trade unions have always been the anchor that has kept the
:39:32. > :39:37.Labour ship steady stormy seas. Because this crew has now failed,
:39:38. > :39:43.the trade unions can broker a peace with Jeremy as our leader and the
:39:44. > :39:50.genuine concerns of the PLP. I am calling upon Angela Eagle and Owen
:39:51. > :39:55.Smith and anybody else to desist from challenging. What kind of deal
:39:56. > :40:00.could you offer them? There are all kinds. We are professional
:40:01. > :40:03.negotiators. You would bring in a different Shadow Cabinet? We would
:40:04. > :40:11.bring both parties together and resolve this. If Angela goes ahead
:40:12. > :40:14.with this, and I hope she doesn't, the alternative is that we are
:40:15. > :40:18.plunged into a civil war that will be bitter and ugly and may never
:40:19. > :40:24.allow the Labour Party to reunite. Why would people want to do that?
:40:25. > :40:30.Give us a chance. Give the trade unions, who have always been a solid
:40:31. > :40:33.block within our party, a chance to bring the party together and resolve
:40:34. > :40:38.our issues. You have said that if Jeremy Corbyn is not on the ballot
:40:39. > :40:44.and there is a balance, the Labour Party could spit. He will be on the
:40:45. > :40:50.ballot. You just heard Neil Kinnock reading out the party rule book. And
:40:51. > :40:56.he talked about candidates, not sitting candidates. The legal
:40:57. > :41:02.opinion is clear. Do you think there should now be honest leadership
:41:03. > :41:06.contest? I don't. And suggesting that Angela and Owen Smith should
:41:07. > :41:10.desist from this. They should allow the trade union general secretary 's
:41:11. > :41:17.to broker a peace. That is the way forward so that we can reunite and
:41:18. > :41:20.challenge this government. When you say these people are dupes of a PR
:41:21. > :41:25.company with sinister forces behind them, do you think they are that
:41:26. > :41:30.stupid? Do you think they have not made their own minds up about Jeremy
:41:31. > :41:34.Corbyn? There have been rumours of two is going on since Jeremy was
:41:35. > :41:41.elected, quite disgracefully, by a core group of MPs -- rumours of
:41:42. > :41:45.coups. People have been seduced into the belief that now is the time,
:41:46. > :41:53.because of the European referendum. A 21% of Labour MPs voted to remain
:41:54. > :41:59.-- 81% of Labour voters voted to remain. 68% of Liberal voters voted
:42:00. > :42:02.to remain. Some people will be saying then McCluskey thinks Jeremy
:42:03. > :42:09.Corbyn can take the ship onto the rocks and sink. That is not true.
:42:10. > :42:14.Look at the results we have had since Jeremy has been leader. Thank
:42:15. > :42:17.you very much. Michael Gove's dramatic entry
:42:18. > :42:19.into the Tory leadership race has made this contest already more
:42:20. > :42:21.bitter and bloody With one blow, he took out the man
:42:22. > :42:25.assumed to be frontrunner. But now he faces some
:42:26. > :42:40.formidable opponents That is the problem you face now.
:42:41. > :42:43.Many of your own party and the newspapers see you as somebody who
:42:44. > :42:47.betrayed your close friend, Boris Johnson, and your close friend,
:42:48. > :42:53.David Cameron. For that reason, you will not win. I am in this
:42:54. > :43:00.leadership contest because I want to advance certain arguments. I believe
:43:01. > :43:02.that as the next Prime Minister, we need someone who believes Britain
:43:03. > :43:06.should be outside the European Union. I have taken difficult
:43:07. > :43:10.decisions, but I have taken those because I put my country and
:43:11. > :43:13.principles first. If I had wanted to be leader out of personal ambition,
:43:14. > :43:18.I could have announced my leadership bid last weekend. A number of people
:43:19. > :43:24.were asking me to put my name forward, but I deliberately did not,
:43:25. > :43:27.because I wanted to put the national interest first. Or because you
:43:28. > :43:32.wanted to destroy Boris Johnson's career. You did not have to do it
:43:33. > :43:36.the way you did. If I had had a difference with a friend, I would
:43:37. > :43:39.have driven across London to my friend and I would have said, there
:43:40. > :43:44.is something we need to discuss. You didn't do that. You left him in the
:43:45. > :43:49.dark until the last moment, humiliated him and destroyed him
:43:50. > :43:53.publicly. I came to the conclusion reluctantly, after throwing my heart
:43:54. > :43:56.and soul into trying to get Boris to become leader of the Conservative
:43:57. > :44:03.Party, that he could not do that job. What was the essence of the
:44:04. > :44:07.problem? Until the 11th hour, I was talking to Parliamentary colleagues
:44:08. > :44:11.and friends, seeking to persuade them that Boris could be Prime
:44:12. > :44:18.Minister. But in the final 24 hours, there were actions taken and
:44:19. > :44:21.decisions that were docked. Which actions and decisions? It has been
:44:22. > :44:26.laid out in the papers. Boris had the opportunity to build a team and
:44:27. > :44:30.to lay out a vision, and I felt he did not step up to that challenge.
:44:31. > :44:35.And there was a deadline. In different circumstances, we could
:44:36. > :44:39.have had a conversation, but the deadline was noon the next day. I
:44:40. > :44:44.faced a basic choice. Can I recommend to the country and to my
:44:45. > :44:47.colleagues that Boris was the right person to lead us as Prime Minister?
:44:48. > :44:52.I could not in all conscience do that. I knew that by taking that
:44:53. > :44:57.decision, all sorts of people would attack me personally, but I love my
:44:58. > :45:02.computer. I could not recommend that Boris was Prime Minister. I tried to
:45:03. > :45:05.make that work -- I love my country. It would have been a betrayal of
:45:06. > :45:10.principle and this country to allow his candidacy to go ahead with my
:45:11. > :45:16.support. So instead, you betrayed him why not going to see him and
:45:17. > :45:26.telling him what you were doing. It was not just a decision by you, it
:45:27. > :45:30.was an operation by them. No. A lot of people moved to your cap very
:45:31. > :45:37.quickly. Phone calls were made to journalists very quickly. I took the
:45:38. > :45:44.decision very late on Wednesday evening. I went to bed at 1:30am. I
:45:45. > :45:50.reflected on it, I woke early in the morning and decided. I decided that
:45:51. > :45:55.I could not, in conscience, make that recommendation. I talked to my
:45:56. > :46:03.closest colleagues and my wife, and then I made that decision. I sought
:46:04. > :46:07.to ring Boris that morning. I spoke to one of his colleagues and
:46:08. > :46:11.explained my decision. But the clock was ticking and a decision had to be
:46:12. > :46:14.made before noon. The question I faced was a basic one. Of course
:46:15. > :46:19.people were going to criticise me for not following through. But
:46:20. > :46:23.ultimately, throughout my political life I have asked myself one
:46:24. > :46:25.question. What is right for this country? If there is a personal cost
:46:26. > :46:35.to me, I will bear it. You are running for Prime Minister,
:46:36. > :46:43.there isn't a personal cost, and some people say it is stabbing him
:46:44. > :46:48.in the back. There is one other thing. I withdrew my support for
:46:49. > :46:53.Boris. Boris could have chosen to go on if he wished to. The fact he
:46:54. > :46:57.didn't I think is telling. One thing I would say is that my judgment
:46:58. > :47:03.about what is right for this country will always guide me. On that basis,
:47:04. > :47:07.reluctantly and with a heavy heart because I enjoy working with Boris
:47:08. > :47:11.during the referendum campaign, I think he has great talent and great
:47:12. > :47:16.abilities but to be Prime Minister that you need to have grit and
:47:17. > :47:19.executive authority, a sense of purpose and clarity. I hoped Boris
:47:20. > :47:24.would show that but in the end it wasn't there. But you don't have
:47:25. > :47:30.that either, you have said so yourself, as you know. I didn't want
:47:31. > :47:34.to be in this position and if I had wanted to be leader, is myself
:47:35. > :47:38.ambition was place and position, if I wanted the glory and the job, I
:47:39. > :47:43.would have declared my candidacy last week when so many friends were
:47:44. > :47:46.urging me to do so. But I put my own personal ambition to one side and
:47:47. > :47:51.did what I thought was right for the country. Now I am entering this race
:47:52. > :47:58.because I believe the next person who reads this country should be
:47:59. > :48:00.someone who believes this country should be outside the European
:48:01. > :48:02.Union, who also has the experience of driving through reform and as
:48:03. > :48:07.well as that executive experience will be someone that everyone
:48:08. > :48:12.recognises is acting not from any personal motivation but acting from
:48:13. > :48:17.principle. You brought down David Cameron, then you brought down Boris
:48:18. > :48:22.Johnson. Some people are saying you are political serial killer. I
:48:23. > :48:27.didn't make the decision to call the referendum, that was David Cameron's
:48:28. > :48:33.position. He chose the timing and the basis. I have enormous respect
:48:34. > :48:36.for him but if you put friendship and personal relations before what
:48:37. > :48:40.is right when you are a politician, you are not serving your country.
:48:41. > :48:45.You have to serve your country by doing what is right. I believed
:48:46. > :48:48.Britain would be better off outside the European Union and the majority
:48:49. > :48:53.of people in this country voted for that course. Ultimately will what
:48:54. > :48:55.matters is not the state of personal relations in Westminster, what
:48:56. > :49:00.matters is that the country has leadership from someone who argued
:49:01. > :49:04.and believed we should leave the European Union. Who is not
:49:05. > :49:11.interested in personal games... What happened last week was a kind of
:49:12. > :49:15.personal gain to end all personal games, a political assassination of
:49:16. > :49:21.Boris's political career, where you set humiliating things about him in
:49:22. > :49:26.front of the British people and destroyed him in front of all of us.
:49:27. > :49:31.If there was any brutal knife work, that was it, surely. I made it clear
:49:32. > :49:38.I didn't think Boris Johnson should be Prime Minister having worked
:49:39. > :49:45.hard... How long has he been a friend for? Many years. 30 years?
:49:46. > :49:51.During the referendum campaign I believed he might be the person who
:49:52. > :49:56.could become Prime Minister. And you didn't think before he couldn't make
:49:57. > :50:01.it? During that period he was supported by the architect of the
:50:02. > :50:06.Leave campaign and he did a good job. I wanted him to be Prime
:50:07. > :50:11.Minister and I realised during those four days he was not the man and
:50:12. > :50:23.this was not the time. You are a big fan of Game Of Thrones, is that
:50:24. > :50:27.right? House Of Cards? You are frank Underwood, a lot of people are
:50:28. > :50:31.saying. If you turn to that camera and say something sinister it would
:50:32. > :50:34.be perfect. There are all sorts of people who would say disobliging
:50:35. > :50:40.things about me, I don't mind that because I would rather people said,
:50:41. > :50:43.this is a man who sticks to his principles, rather than this is a
:50:44. > :50:49.man who was worried about popularity and words are uttered in newspapers
:50:50. > :50:53.or on television programmes. Another close friend of yours for the time
:50:54. > :50:57.being as George Osborne, I think you are going on holiday and so forth,
:50:58. > :51:01.he remains close. Let me read you again what he said this week. I
:51:02. > :51:06.think we are in a prolonged period of economic adjustment for the UK,
:51:07. > :51:11.adjusting to life outside of the EU and it will not be as economically
:51:12. > :51:15.rosy as life inside the EU. It is very clear the country will be
:51:16. > :51:22.poorer as a result of what's happening to the economy. Then he
:51:23. > :51:25.talked about spending cuts and so forth. Do you agree with him? I
:51:26. > :51:29.didn't spent last weekend with George Osborne, I spent last weekend
:51:30. > :51:34.trying to make sure Boris Johnson could become leader of the
:51:35. > :51:38.Conservative Party, absolutely unsuccessfully. On the question of
:51:39. > :51:43.the economy, I outlined on Friday are plan for how we could take
:51:44. > :51:48.advantage of this new departure. The British people voted for change, not
:51:49. > :51:52.for business as usual. They want to make sure we grasp the opportunities
:51:53. > :51:57.leaving the European Union can give us. New opportunities to trade with
:51:58. > :52:00.countries like Australia and New Zealand who have already been on the
:52:01. > :52:04.telephone demanding to get new arrangements. The referendum
:52:05. > :52:10.revealed that even though our economy has been growing, not
:52:11. > :52:15.everyone has been benefiting. There are two Britains. There is one that
:52:16. > :52:19.has done nicely out of our economic arrangements, and Ron has been left
:52:20. > :52:23.behind. My candidacy is specifically designed to focus attention on
:52:24. > :52:26.working people on average and below average incomes who have been let
:52:27. > :52:31.down consistently in the past and who voted in such numbers for a
:52:32. > :52:35.change. It is a radical change of direction as you said yourself. It
:52:36. > :52:39.includes things like an attack on people at the top who have earned
:52:40. > :52:44.money you don't feel they have really deserved in finances and so
:52:45. > :52:47.forth, and you have said again this morning you cannot understand
:52:48. > :52:50.politicians making airy promises that never become legislation. So
:52:51. > :52:56.how will you crack down on people earning too much? I think there are
:52:57. > :53:00.things we can do to change the way in which companies specifically pay
:53:01. > :53:08.individuals for tasks that they perform badly. I am looking for a
:53:09. > :53:11.specific policy proposal. We have a problem at the moment whereby
:53:12. > :53:15.individuals, when they run companies which they have never created, they
:53:16. > :53:19.are hired managers, they pay themselves as though they were Steve
:53:20. > :53:24.Jobs when in fact they behave like David Brent. When they have failed
:53:25. > :53:28.they get massive payoffs and guilt edged pensions. I will look at the
:53:29. > :53:32.laws that govern how corporate pay is fixed and how corporate payoffs
:53:33. > :53:37.are delivered in order to ensure we don't have a culture of payment for
:53:38. > :53:41.failure. I outlined before the general election that the
:53:42. > :53:45.Conservative Party needed to be warriors for the dispossessed. I
:53:46. > :53:50.explained after the general election that we needed to tackle the scandal
:53:51. > :53:55.of the undeserving rich. And you are going to get those numbers down, you
:53:56. > :54:02.are going to tax or otherwise remove bonuses from people at the top? I'm
:54:03. > :54:06.not going to use... It is not just words, you have got to have a
:54:07. > :54:13.proposal. I launched my leadership bid on by day and describe some
:54:14. > :54:20.specific problems we have in income inequality in our society. I have
:54:21. > :54:23.spoken most about the scandal of inequality, and in office I have
:54:24. > :54:29.delivered plans in order to make sure the poorest children and
:54:30. > :54:33.victims of the criminal justice system were supported in a way they
:54:34. > :54:38.haven't been before. If we go with you as a country, we will be taking
:54:39. > :54:43.a gamble on your judgment. I put it to you that your pass judgment has
:54:44. > :54:45.not always been perfect. Here is you on the Northern Ireland peace
:54:46. > :54:51.process. The Belfast agreement has at its heart and even greater
:54:52. > :54:55.wickedness, it is a capitulation to violence, a validation of terrorism,
:54:56. > :55:00.the moral stain of such a process will prove hard to be faced. It is a
:55:01. > :55:04.humiliation of our army, and police, but were still a denial of our
:55:05. > :55:10.international integrity. There are lots of people walking around today
:55:11. > :55:13.that, if that peace agreement had not been concluded, would be dead,
:55:14. > :55:17.and that was a horrendous error of judgment on your part. I am
:55:18. > :55:21.certainly glad we now have peace in Northern Ireland but looking back I
:55:22. > :55:25.think it could have been handled in a different way. You said
:55:26. > :55:30.wickedness, moral stain, and you were wrong, were you not? There was
:55:31. > :55:33.a problem with the Northern Ireland peace process, but we now have peace
:55:34. > :55:37.in Northern Ireland, I'm delighted we do, but there were things we did
:55:38. > :55:42.during the negotiations and the way in which we handled the IRA that I
:55:43. > :55:47.would not have done. There were people who felt as I did,
:55:48. > :55:53.discomfort. I will put it no more highly. There is certainly a moral
:55:54. > :55:56.question about whether or not someone who had been engaged in
:55:57. > :56:01.terrorism should be in office and I found that very difficult to take.
:56:02. > :56:05.Since you have asked me, it is a serious matter, one of the reasons
:56:06. > :56:08.is that I have clear principles and one of my principles is that I
:56:09. > :56:14.believe in the integrity of our United Kingdom. I don't like the
:56:15. > :56:18.idea we should be allowing our country to be influenced by a
:56:19. > :56:23.terrorist campaign, and I believe that in standing up for the unity of
:56:24. > :56:26.our kingdom and standing up against violence and intimidation, I am
:56:27. > :56:31.standing up for the values that most people share. Would you use the
:56:32. > :56:40.British Parliament to for bit Nicola Sturgeon from holding a second
:56:41. > :56:44.independence referendum in Scotland? I don't believe there will be an
:56:45. > :56:49.appetite for another referendum in Scotland. You said even after the
:56:50. > :56:53.Iraq war was over that it would go down as one of the great British
:56:54. > :57:01.policy successes in modern times, do you still believe that? We will have
:57:02. > :57:04.the Chilcot inquiry in three days' time, there will be an opportunity
:57:05. > :57:08.then to learn the lessons. Of course we need to be more modest when
:57:09. > :57:13.intervening abroad, absolutely, but we also need to be resolute in the
:57:14. > :57:17.face of terror. As the only leadership candidate that has laid
:57:18. > :57:21.out a specific manifesto on how we deal with terrorism and how we deal
:57:22. > :57:25.with extremism, I believe I have got the experience and insight. You must
:57:26. > :57:34.have been preparing this before it happened. No. Final question, David
:57:35. > :57:40.Cameron has published his tax returns, will you publish yours
:57:41. > :57:45.before nominations close? Of course, yes. Thank you for that very crisp
:57:46. > :57:58.answer. On Sunday morning live, Blockbuster
:57:59. > :58:02.author Frederick Forsyth tells us about his life, his near escape from
:58:03. > :58:09.death and his new-found calling as a poet with a special tribute to the
:58:10. > :58:13.soldiers of the Somme. Hour we really the model of multi-phased
:58:14. > :58:19.democracy that David Cameron thinks we are? And how high are your heels?
:58:20. > :58:22.Are they worthy of the workplace or should you give these the boot?
:58:23. > :58:24.Well, this weekend belongs to Wales and I've been joined
:58:25. > :58:26.again by Lord Kinnock, and by James Dean Bradfield
:58:27. > :58:35.James, tell not about this and some, is it a song you have been working
:58:36. > :58:40.on for a while or was it specifically for the Welsh football?
:58:41. > :58:42.Nicky in the band has been potentially writing the Welsh
:58:43. > :58:46.qualifications on for a long time but it has been the first time we
:58:47. > :58:50.have been able to carry through with it and finish it. The song is as
:58:51. > :58:54.much about qualification as anything because it is the first time we have
:58:55. > :59:01.qualified for any competition since 1958. Neil Kinnock, the wrong shaped
:59:02. > :59:07.ball but apart from that wonderful moment. They are both the right
:59:08. > :59:12.shaped ball, the only difference with rugby is the human instep has
:59:13. > :59:19.been specially shaped by God to fit the rugby ball, but in football we
:59:20. > :59:26.are... Wales as a footballing nation in any case. It is true you knew
:59:27. > :59:35.James at school, is that right? The 74-year-old James! Neil's
:59:36. > :59:46.constituency house was in my street so kind of like, yes... He and Nicky
:59:47. > :59:50.in the competence of school, I got an excellent headteacher to
:59:51. > :00:00.introduce an arts prize, and of course they all won it. OK, get
:00:01. > :00:06.going. Get yourself set up. So you got an arts prize and they won it.
:00:07. > :00:10.Yes, they were great, and they didn't win it for music, they won it
:00:11. > :00:15.for art and poetry and God knows what so it was terrific. Do you
:00:16. > :00:20.think Wales can go all the way this time? I have had this dream, I
:00:21. > :00:24.remember John Charles being kicked out of the World Cup in Sweden by
:00:25. > :00:29.the Hungarians, it was so badly injured he couldn't play. The story
:00:30. > :00:33.of the game against Brazil might have been different but for all
:00:34. > :00:38.those years we dreamt we have come close to the odd Wembley but never
:00:39. > :00:43.made it. Now I am daring to dream. Neil Kinnock, thank you.
:00:44. > :00:52.Thanks to all of my guests. The Sunday politics will be talking to
:00:53. > :01:00.Liam Fox. I will have more next week, I have no idea who it will be
:01:01. > :01:02.so join us then if you can. Now we have the Manic Street Preachers, and
:01:03. > :01:06.their anthem, Stronger Together. # When Brazil would
:01:07. > :01:10.make our hearts break # Chrissy Coleman, Gunter,
:01:11. > :03:28.Chester # Hennessey,
:03:29. > :03:32.Allen, King and Collins