:00:09. > :00:12.Political leaders don't get much of a honeymoon.
:00:13. > :00:15.Theresa May has barely got her feet under the desk and she finds
:00:16. > :00:17.Liam Fox mouthing off about fat and flabby business,
:00:18. > :00:20.a juicy row splitting the Tories over grammar schools, and chilly
:00:21. > :00:27.rebukes from the Japanese and Americans over Brexit.
:00:28. > :00:43.Amber Rudd, Home Secretary and enthusiastic Remainer,
:00:44. > :00:45.is now tasked with crunching immigration numbers
:00:46. > :00:56.And Owen Smith - is this man really more electable
:00:57. > :01:06.as a future prime minister than Jeremy Corbyn?
:01:07. > :01:09.I've also been talking to the man who led
:01:10. > :01:10.the BBC during its most troubled, scandal-hit years.
:01:11. > :01:13.Mark Thompson, now running the New York Times, warns
:01:14. > :01:19.the Government against politicising broadcasters.
:01:20. > :01:22.Here to play us out, the cult Scottish rock band
:01:23. > :01:30.Teenage Fanclub, back after a six year break.
:01:31. > :01:36.I know what I'm feeling # I can't show it
:01:37. > :01:39.# At these feelings don't go away #. Among our paper
:01:40. > :01:40.reviewers this morning, two feisty columnists -
:01:41. > :01:42.Peter Hitchens from the Mail on Sunday and
:01:43. > :01:44.the Guardian's Polly Toynbee. Plus Gisela Stuart, a leading Labour
:01:45. > :01:46.light in the Leave campaign. All that after the news, read this
:01:47. > :01:52.morning by Maxine Mawhinney. Health service leaders in England
:01:53. > :01:56.are warning that the cash crisis The chief executive of NHS
:01:57. > :02:02.Providers, Chris Hopson, writes in the Observer newspaper
:02:03. > :02:05.that the health service can no longer deliver what's being asked
:02:06. > :02:09.of it with the money available. But the Department of Health says it
:02:10. > :02:12.has provided the NHS in England with the funding it requested,
:02:13. > :02:18.as Steven Godden reports. It's been a week that's
:02:19. > :02:20.highlighted the difficulties Figures that showed record levels
:02:21. > :02:26.of delayed discharge and a continuing trend of missed
:02:27. > :02:29.targets on waiting times Now the body representing hospitals
:02:30. > :02:36.is warning that the service has reached tipping point due
:02:37. > :02:40.to a lack of funding. The language from NHS Providers
:02:41. > :02:44.is stark, describing balancing the books while maintaining
:02:45. > :02:47.standards for patients Comparing past with present,
:02:48. > :02:53.they say that three years ago 5% Within the same time frame,
:02:54. > :03:02.they say the percentage of hospitals missing A waiting time targets has
:03:03. > :03:09.jumped from 10% to 90%. The organisation say
:03:10. > :03:11.many of its members, chief executives of hospitals,
:03:12. > :03:14.mental health trusts and other NHS services,
:03:15. > :03:19.want to sound a warning bell that they cannot maintain standards
:03:20. > :03:23.on the money they're getting. But the Department of Health say
:03:24. > :03:26.it's giving the NHS in England the ?10 million it asked
:03:27. > :03:30.for to plan its own future. In return, it says it
:03:31. > :03:32.rightly expects patients More than 100 people
:03:33. > :03:40.are reported to have been killed by intense air strikes in Syria,
:03:41. > :03:43.shortly before a ceasefire Opposition activists
:03:44. > :03:47.say dozens were killed Fighting is due to
:03:48. > :03:54.stop tomorrow night. The Labour Party has suspended
:03:55. > :03:56.a prominent donor who likened Jeremy Corbyn's leadership team
:03:57. > :03:59.to Hitler's stormtroopers. Michael Foster made the comparison
:04:00. > :04:03.in a Sunday paper last month, after failing to stop Mr Corbyn
:04:04. > :04:06.from being allowed to stand Mr Foster said the Mail on Sunday
:04:07. > :04:12.had added the word Investigations have begun
:04:13. > :04:18.into the death of a parachutist, who crash-landed on a parked
:04:19. > :04:21.car on a housing estate The woman's chute failed to open
:04:22. > :04:24.fully and she became tangled Police say the
:04:25. > :04:28.49-year-old had jumped Durham Police, the Health
:04:29. > :04:32.and Safety Executive and the British Parachute
:04:33. > :04:37.Association will investigate. Fire-fighters in New York have been
:04:38. > :04:40.marking the 15-year anniversary of the September the 11th terrorist
:04:41. > :04:44.attacks at a memorial service. 343 firefighters were
:04:45. > :04:47.among the 3,000 killed when suicide bombers hijacked
:04:48. > :04:51.four passenger jets. Hundreds of family members listened
:04:52. > :05:14.as the firefighters' If you look at the papers, it is
:05:15. > :05:19.very clear that the political season has started again properly. We are
:05:20. > :05:24.going to talk to Chris Hopson, the NHS board behind this story. A few
:05:25. > :05:29.stories about the Paralympics and grammar schools. Grammar schools the
:05:30. > :05:34.splash in the Sunday Times. But HS2 is in trouble again. Its boss has
:05:35. > :05:38.just quit it is spiralling out of control, many people think, in terms
:05:39. > :05:42.of funding, so that is a challenge for Theresa May. The Keith Vaz story
:05:43. > :05:46.on the front page as well, and the Keith Vaz story all over the Mail on
:05:47. > :05:54.Sunday. His wife has given an interview. I forgive the betrayal,
:05:55. > :05:57.she says. And the Sunday Mirror... There are many other stories in the
:05:58. > :06:00.Sunday papers which we will cover but we are going to start with
:06:01. > :06:04.grammar schools because this is the story running through every single
:06:05. > :06:08.paper, virtually. There was a column by a certain Peter Hitchens on the
:06:09. > :06:13.subject in the Mail on Sunday. Rejoicing over the extraordinary
:06:14. > :06:17.fact that Mrs May has copied me. I enjoyed her using my long tried
:06:18. > :06:21.slogan that we already have school selection in this country, but by
:06:22. > :06:24.house price, something I have been saying for as long as I can
:06:25. > :06:27.remember, which demolishes the argument that selection will be
:06:28. > :06:32.reintroduced if you bring grammar schools back. You think it filters
:06:33. > :06:39.its way into the prime minister's subconscious? Somehow or other. I
:06:40. > :06:43.never thought she'd do it. I see the hand of Nick Timothy, her adviser,
:06:44. > :06:48.in this, who was a grammar school man. This is going to be a really
:06:49. > :06:52.big event in terms of education. The Sunday Times is a big splash. They
:06:53. > :06:55.have, and they say that councils are beginning to draw up plans for
:06:56. > :06:59.grammar schools, which I very much hope they do, and this will be the
:07:00. > :07:02.test of whether people can actually open new selective schools in large
:07:03. > :07:05.numbers and whether they can be made to succeed in the Britain of today.
:07:06. > :07:09.I think it is very possible but it is going to be a fight because there
:07:10. > :07:14.are an awful lot of people with very strong interests who are opposed to
:07:15. > :07:18.it. And there is a big division in the Tory party. Polly Toynbee, you
:07:19. > :07:23.must be pretty dismayed by this. Peter is the great Guru of bringing
:07:24. > :07:26.back the 50s, so I'm not surprised you're in heaven over this, but what
:07:27. > :07:29.is really important about the British education system is that the
:07:30. > :07:35.top after is pretty darn well and has done better and better. The
:07:36. > :07:38.problem is in the bottom half and bringing back grammar schools does
:07:39. > :07:44.nothing about the tail end problem, particularly the bottom 20%. Is this
:07:45. > :07:48.what the Observer story refers to? The head of the private schools
:07:49. > :07:52.association is saying that it is going to be a huge boost for private
:07:53. > :07:55.schools because what happens is, when you have segregation those
:07:56. > :08:00.middle-class children who don't get into grammar schools don't want to
:08:01. > :08:04.go to secondary moderns, so there is a big boost in sending them to
:08:05. > :08:09.private schools. There is also a big boost in primary private schools, so
:08:10. > :08:13.the people get tuition. That is the most extraordinary nonsense. The
:08:14. > :08:15.complete remaking of the private schools in this country, many of
:08:16. > :08:21.which were on their way to extinction in the early 1960s, was
:08:22. > :08:25.the closing of grammar schools. That's not true. I was privately
:08:26. > :08:31.educated, under the big surge of interest. In recent years... In
:08:32. > :08:40.Germany, where they've never got rid of selective state schools, there
:08:41. > :08:43.are practically no... Because of the increasing success, under both
:08:44. > :08:46.Labour and the Tories, the better results for state schools against
:08:47. > :08:53.conferences, the proportion going to private school... You were educated
:08:54. > :08:56.in Germany. Private schools never got anywhere in Germany because if
:08:57. > :09:01.you went to a private school in Germany, your parents were very rich
:09:02. > :09:05.and you were so not with it that you couldn't even hack it in the state
:09:06. > :09:10.sector, so what you got to do is a different culture. I'm a burning MP,
:09:11. > :09:14.where the King Edward foundation schools remain a complete
:09:15. > :09:18.combination of some fee-paying, some non-free paying. They've now got
:09:19. > :09:22.some 25 the of their intake on free school meals, they are opening
:09:23. > :09:30.university teaching schools, and the real problem, as Jeremy Corbyn says
:09:31. > :09:35.this article, is that we need to address investing in the children
:09:36. > :09:39.and making education at all levels accessible. The West Midlands has a
:09:40. > :09:44.shortage of 45,000 primary school places. Why pick an ideological
:09:45. > :09:50.argument at this stage which, to me, does not address the problems on the
:09:51. > :09:53.ground, and that is because of not enough teacher training. Our
:09:54. > :09:57.national failure has largely been as a result of the collapse of good
:09:58. > :10:01.secondary education in the state system and if we don't address, it
:10:02. > :10:05.will get worse. Nicky Morgan, the education secretary, attacked the
:10:06. > :10:09.policy straightaway, saying it was weird. Is there a real division in
:10:10. > :10:14.the Tory party? Most of them couldn't care less. Many of them are
:10:15. > :10:19.privately educated and many of them know little about education. The
:10:20. > :10:23.truth is, nobody in the British education system benefited from the
:10:24. > :10:26.grammar schools being destroyed. The people who were in them suffered,
:10:27. > :10:32.the people in secondary moderns didn't do substantially better. Tell
:10:33. > :10:35.us about the politics of this. We thought that Theresa May was a safe
:10:36. > :10:40.pair of hands. She's done something remarkably reckless with a grammar
:10:41. > :10:45.school policy. I've warmed to her all the more! We have to stop
:10:46. > :10:49.grammar schools now and get the other stories don't. The NHS story
:10:50. > :10:55.is really important. This is very important because you have a very
:10:56. > :10:59.senior figure, you're speaking to Chris Hopson, who represents the
:11:00. > :11:02.main hospital providers, saying they can't continue like this. 80% of
:11:03. > :11:05.them in deep debt and being told they've got to bring those debts
:11:06. > :11:10.down and the funding is going to drop very severely in the two years
:11:11. > :11:14.before the next election. The public needs to know this, that either we
:11:15. > :11:19.need to ration services or we'd eater much lower quality of
:11:20. > :11:24.standard. It is time for people to realise that we can't keep going
:11:25. > :11:28.like this. It needs more money. The NHS has never had as low a level of
:11:29. > :11:33.funding in terms of an increase each year. Some people will say that
:11:34. > :11:37.every year the NHS says there a crisis and, actually, life goes on.
:11:38. > :11:42.This is a pre-Autumn Statement piece of financial flag-waving and we
:11:43. > :11:46.shouldn't take too seriously. The Treasury must be very alarmed that
:11:47. > :11:51.technically the Department of Health lost its budget, which is almost
:11:52. > :11:55.unique, this year. It would bust it hugely next year unless they get
:11:56. > :12:00.more money. I think it is not just shroud waving. It is remarkable the
:12:01. > :12:06.NHS has done as well as it has with the funding it has had. After all,
:12:07. > :12:12.Gisela, the NHS is about to get ?350 million a week more as we leave the
:12:13. > :12:17.EU. First of all, we have to leave the EU and until and unless we do,
:12:18. > :12:22.we can make none of these decisions. At once that happens, that money can
:12:23. > :12:26.go to the NHS? I was a health minister in the Blair government and
:12:27. > :12:29.I know that it makes a real difference but you also need to have
:12:30. > :12:35.some structural change in terms of social care because... Versus story
:12:36. > :12:43.in the Observer paper suggesting that people like you have abandoned
:12:44. > :12:46.this pledge. What we came onto the change Britain organisation, we were
:12:47. > :12:50.a cross-party group that said we want to leave the EU, which would
:12:51. > :12:53.give us the right to make choices and priorities and for me, the
:12:54. > :12:59.priorities was the NHS and you need to be able to implement that. The
:13:00. > :13:03.Tories who stood in front of ?350 million promise won't deliver on a?
:13:04. > :13:07.First of all we've got to leave and then we can make the decision and,
:13:08. > :13:11.to many of us, the priority is the NHS. Iain Duncan Smith and a whole
:13:12. > :13:16.bunch of people straight after Brexit said, or we never really
:13:17. > :13:23.meant it. That big loss you stood in front of, people believed there was
:13:24. > :13:30.going to be 350 million more. The cue stick 350 miles long and that
:13:31. > :13:35.was said during the campaign. People don't always tell the truth in
:13:36. > :13:41.campaigns. We have a Mail on Sunday campaign about Boris Johnson, who is
:13:42. > :13:45.backing this new group featuring Gisela. That are supposedly trying
:13:46. > :13:50.to push misses me towards a higher Brexit, rather than the very soft
:13:51. > :13:55.one people suspect she wants. -- push Theresa May towards. There is a
:13:56. > :13:59.big problem here, which the French must have noticed by now, that we
:14:00. > :14:03.can't make our minds at what we want. The problem with the story is
:14:04. > :14:07.that Boris Johnson's actual words aren't terribly striking or
:14:08. > :14:11.hard-core or inflammatory or indeed anything. A resource that problem
:14:12. > :14:16.with Boris Johnson. You analyse what he says, rather than what he appears
:14:17. > :14:19.to be. You had David Davis for the first time standing up in front of
:14:20. > :14:22.the dispatch box, in charge of these negotiations, saying it was most
:14:23. > :14:26.improbable we would stay in the single market and Number Ten had to
:14:27. > :14:31.slap him down, saying it is a personal view. What minister has a
:14:32. > :14:36.personal view from the dispatch box? The chaos... We've got Liam Fox, as
:14:37. > :14:40.well, rubbishing British business, yet he's meant to be representing
:14:41. > :14:45.them. For the first time in our national history, we have a
:14:46. > :14:49.government which does not believe in its principal policy and this is
:14:50. > :14:52.going to cause endless acrobatics. Is that why we now have, this
:14:53. > :15:07.morning, a new organisation? We do, it is in the Sun. An article,
:15:08. > :15:13.the essences, were you a Remainer or were you a Leaver? The British
:15:14. > :15:18.people have decided to leave... Hold their feet to the fire, is that the
:15:19. > :15:23.purpose? Both things, to remind people what the referendum was
:15:24. > :15:27.about. More importantly I'm probably one of the few to have negotiated
:15:28. > :15:30.with Whitehall giving the Constitution and even when you have
:15:31. > :15:35.politically agreed it becomes technically very complex. I think we
:15:36. > :15:39.need to bring together the ideas, make sure it gets implemented but
:15:40. > :15:49.above all the referendum showed some real divisions in this country. It
:15:50. > :15:53.really flagged them up. And for the Labour Party to be able to respond
:15:54. > :15:56.to all these areas that voted to leave, I think we need to come
:15:57. > :16:07.together and work on their interest... There is are those of
:16:08. > :16:14.us, the 48%, want to stay as close as possible to Europe, and your lot,
:16:15. > :16:18.Boris's lot who want a hard exit. The bad losers party will do
:16:19. > :16:23.everything it can to stop this from happening and it may well succeed.
:16:24. > :16:30.Listen to Polly, she may well be, I'm afraid, the voice of the future!
:16:31. > :16:37.There's a moment on the so far! I want to look at two other stories...
:16:38. > :16:39.We as politicians have a responsibility to bring people
:16:40. > :16:48.together, not complain about divisions. You just said, launching
:16:49. > :16:52.a more decisive group. If you don't mind, two more stories. Liam Fox
:16:53. > :16:57.said, fat and flabby British business. Maybe he was right. There
:16:58. > :17:02.is a politically correct kind of sense of outrage that everyone is
:17:03. > :17:07.expressing. I'm not in any position to call anyone else fat and flabby!
:17:08. > :17:11.Nor am I. Imagine you are going around the world trying to get good
:17:12. > :17:18.deals and you say, Frankie our business people are rubbish. That's
:17:19. > :17:25.not a good start. The final story, Peter, Christmas is threatened, we
:17:26. > :17:32.are told. There seem to be two better stories underneath this, the
:17:33. > :17:40.Cabinet split and ahead of the HS two departs. I dislike political
:17:41. > :17:44.correct is as the next man but I don't feel that Christmas is in any
:17:45. > :17:48.danger at the moment. Thank you all very much. A fascinating review. We
:17:49. > :17:53.got through the main stories and least! -- at least.
:17:54. > :17:55.An autumn of crisis looms for the health service,
:17:56. > :17:58.The warnings are coming from the group representing leaders
:17:59. > :18:03.Their chief executive Chris Hopson joins me now.
:18:04. > :18:09.Chris, is this not the usual financial shroud waving before an
:18:10. > :18:12.ordnance statement, the NHS somehow always muddle through. Think there
:18:13. > :18:17.are three different things this time. If you look at the performance
:18:18. > :18:22.statistics, despite the incredibly hard work of the stuff we are under
:18:23. > :18:25.the greatest pressure we have been for a generation. And we are
:18:26. > :18:30.struggling to make the money work this year and yet it is an increase
:18:31. > :18:41.of 3.8%. Next year it will go down to 1.4 and the year after, 0.3, the
:18:42. > :18:44.year after that 0.7. And NHS cost and demand goes up by 4% aegis we've
:18:45. > :18:47.got a huge gap coming. And it's not as saying it, it's the chief
:18:48. > :18:49.executives on the front line of community ambulance trusts and
:18:50. > :18:54.mental health services who say they cannot make this add up any longer.
:18:55. > :19:00.So either the NHS gets new money either through taxes or a new levy
:19:01. > :19:05.or you will have to cut and Russian services. What kind of things should
:19:06. > :19:09.be rationed? I think we already know the answer, we have already seen in
:19:10. > :19:14.the next few months, the beginnings and these choices that need to be
:19:15. > :19:16.made so we have a clinical commissioning group in the
:19:17. > :19:21.north-west that effectively said it needed to post them all nonurgent
:19:22. > :19:26.operations for four months. Another crackdown on people who smoke or
:19:27. > :19:33.people who are obese? The example I was going to give you. We can also
:19:34. > :19:36.give examples from our side of the House, Hospital trusts are having to
:19:37. > :19:40.close services and we also have trusts who say the only way to make
:19:41. > :19:44.the money add up is to cut the workforce. All things done by other
:19:45. > :19:47.public services, it's really different than the NHS... People
:19:48. > :19:52.should be aware that it's about to happen in the NHS. This is why we
:19:53. > :19:56.just made it clear and unequivocal statement from the front line, the
:19:57. > :20:00.people responsible every day for overseeing safe delivery of care,
:20:01. > :20:03.what they say very clearly is they can't provide the right quality of
:20:04. > :20:06.care and meet the performance standards on the money that is
:20:07. > :20:10.available and something will have to give. We need to have a proper
:20:11. > :20:15.debate about what should give rather than pretending the gap does not
:20:16. > :20:20.exist or leaving it to each individual area to decide what
:20:21. > :20:25.should give. And unusual point in the history of the NHS as there is a
:20:26. > :20:31.new policy for the NHS, it should go seven days. Can I ask, given the
:20:32. > :20:34.money you have, is this seven-day NHS deliverable? Think Jeremy Hunt
:20:35. > :20:38.and others have made a strong case for it but it is not possible to
:20:39. > :20:42.deliver it on the current level of staff and money we have. If
:20:43. > :20:47.something has to give at the moment, and we are doing what we can, it
:20:48. > :20:53.cannot cover important new policies like seven-day services. If that did
:20:54. > :21:01.not happen would the Junius doctor strike go away? It is interesting.
:21:02. > :21:04.If you ask the junior doctors why they are so angry it's because of
:21:05. > :21:07.the pressure they are under. The reason they are under pressure is
:21:08. > :21:10.because we cannot provide the quality of service and meet the
:21:11. > :21:15.standards on the money we have available. Less than one year ago
:21:16. > :21:19.after the last settlement you said that the ?10 billion up front that
:21:20. > :21:23.Jeremy Hunt and Simon Stevens had negotiated was a great success. You
:21:24. > :21:28.suggested that the NHS could go forward so why, less than one year
:21:29. > :21:33.later, do you say you are on a cliff edge? We're not saying we are on a
:21:34. > :21:37.cliff edge, we say that we always see a long-term decline in the NHS
:21:38. > :21:41.and we want to warn about it. It was glass half full, glass half empty,
:21:42. > :21:46.if you look to other public services the NHS did better than that and did
:21:47. > :21:52.so because of the case we made but we were clear that it would never be
:21:53. > :21:57.enough. So, no seven-day NHS plus more money from general taxation, is
:21:58. > :22:01.that what you want? We don't want to make it sound as if we are not
:22:02. > :22:05.meeting our responsibilities. All our chief executives know they have
:22:06. > :22:08.to deliver stretching service tigers and stretching productivity, they
:22:09. > :22:12.are signed up to that, what they are not signed up to is being asked to
:22:13. > :22:17.deliver the impossible and being chastised when they inevitably fall
:22:18. > :22:21.short. Ministers would say it's not the amount of money going in, it's
:22:22. > :22:26.the mismanagement, especially of work by agency workers when the
:22:27. > :22:31.bills drop it in another country. If we just had 5% of hospitals in
:22:32. > :22:36.deficit or missing their A E target it might be argued that some
:22:37. > :22:41.managers were not different. But when you have 94% of hospitals
:22:42. > :22:46.missing the A standard and of 80% in financial deficit that is clearly
:22:47. > :22:49.a system problem. Not a problem of bad management. And those in NHS
:22:50. > :22:56.leadership, some would like to pretend that this is all do to front
:22:57. > :23:00.line incompetence, fantastic staff, lions led by donkeys! It is not as
:23:01. > :23:04.simple as that. It really is. Thank you for joining us. -- it very
:23:05. > :23:07.rarely is. Yesterday, it was pretty nice
:23:08. > :23:12.in Scotland and much of the North That's supposed to change this
:23:13. > :23:16.coming week, with rumours of a late heatwave - though whether that means
:23:17. > :23:19.actual blue skies or simply hot Nick Miller in the weather
:23:20. > :23:26.studio will elucidate. You're right, Andrew, it will be
:23:27. > :23:30.unusually hot for the time of year this week, they will be sunshine to
:23:31. > :23:34.go with that, today we have lost the grim down south and for much of the
:23:35. > :23:39.UK it will stay dry to the day with further sunny spells, looking good
:23:40. > :23:43.on the start line of the great North run, the runners will appreciate
:23:44. > :23:46.some patchy cloud and the sun will disappear behind it occasionally
:23:47. > :23:50.although it will move up a view more degrees from now. We will lose early
:23:51. > :23:53.mist and fog we've had across southern and eastern England in
:23:54. > :23:57.particular and apart from one isolated to show the day looks dry.
:23:58. > :24:02.This is the way it looks at 4pm today. The one spots in south-east
:24:03. > :24:08.England reaching 21 Celsius, maybe 22, wherever you are, -- the warm
:24:09. > :24:11.spots. It will feel pleasant. A strengthening southerly wind of
:24:12. > :24:15.western Britain into Northern Ireland, western Scotland into the
:24:16. > :24:19.Western Isles, you can see a weather system close by which will move in
:24:20. > :24:22.this evening with heavy rain and severe gales. Tomorrow we will see
:24:23. > :24:27.the threat of outbreaks of rain for western parts of Scotland and
:24:28. > :24:31.Northern Ireland, elsewhere, the sunshine is hazy, turning warmer,
:24:32. > :24:36.temperatures rising and by some places could see 31 Celsius. That
:24:37. > :24:38.would be the first time we'd have seen that in the UK in over 40
:24:39. > :24:38.years! Thank you. Tomorrow, it will be a year
:24:39. > :24:48.exactly since Jeremy Corbyn Mr Corbyn remains the favourite
:24:49. > :24:53.to be re-elected in two weeks' time unless one man, my next
:24:54. > :25:01.guest, can stop him. Owen Smith, why did Labour lose the
:25:02. > :25:05.last election? Because we were not seen by the country as a credible
:25:06. > :25:11.alternative to the Tories. We were telling a sensible clear story, we
:25:12. > :25:14.were not having a sensible clear story on the economy and other
:25:15. > :25:21.things and that's what we've got to become again. Yet you are suggesting
:25:22. > :25:28.more expenditure, you're not attacking sharply to the left? I'm
:25:29. > :25:31.not saying we need higher tax rates for ordinary basic rate payers, I
:25:32. > :25:37.would give them a tax break by cutting back on the pension tax
:25:38. > :25:40.relief but what I have said is that the wealthiest 1% in this country
:25:41. > :25:47.ought to pay a little bit more to the introduction of a wealth tax.
:25:48. > :25:54.The 50p rate, yes... That's for the 1%, people earning over ?150,000
:25:55. > :25:59.ago. Not ordinary taxpayers. ?3 billion for the 50p tax rate and a
:26:00. > :26:04.further ?3 billion for the wealth tax. Enough to cover you huge
:26:05. > :26:09.expanse in public spending? ?200 billion is a vast amount. The ?200
:26:10. > :26:13.billion is borrowing. At a point when interest rates are lower than
:26:14. > :26:25.they have been for 300 years I think it
:26:26. > :26:28.is right for us to borrow. The Tories agree because in their recent
:26:29. > :26:30.leadership contest several proposed what I am proposing. Less generous,
:26:31. > :26:33.?100 billion of borrowing through issuing what they called long dated
:26:34. > :26:35.government kilts and no economist in the country has disagreed with me
:26:36. > :26:40.about that. The IMF disagrees with you about how much the 50p tax rate
:26:41. > :26:45.would raise, they say it is a much smaller amount. And these big taxes,
:26:46. > :26:48.unless they savage and bite on people's property and pensions and
:26:49. > :26:54.stock market chairs and so forth do not tend to raise the money people
:26:55. > :26:57.expect. We argued about this at the time, didn't we? Looking back, it is
:26:58. > :27:15.clear that people did take money earlier or defer payment and we
:27:16. > :27:18.would have got ?3 billion more if we had kept that tax rate at 50%. We
:27:19. > :27:20.argued about this, I argued as Shadow Exchequer Secretary at the
:27:21. > :27:23.time and most people agreed we would get ?3 billion a year extra, all the
:27:24. > :27:26.tax I'd mention would allow me to spend extra money on the NHS over
:27:27. > :27:28.the spending period. In terms of the Labour election it sounds like
:27:29. > :27:34.rivers Dutch auction where you saying ?200 billion and John
:27:35. > :27:38.McDonnell says no, ?500 billion if much higher public spending is the
:27:39. > :27:43.answer to the problems. Why is he right and you are wrong? That's the
:27:44. > :27:46.difference between me and Jeremy and John, credibility is the problem. I
:27:47. > :27:51.have said explicitly how we would raise the money no economist in the
:27:52. > :27:56.country has disagreed with me about this. We do it all the time. John
:27:57. > :27:58.McDonnell says he wants to raise 500 billion and will do throughout
:27:59. > :28:03.through increasing the productivity and the economy and getting tax
:28:04. > :28:07.avoidance done? Tax avoidance will raise maybe ?30 billion if we are
:28:08. > :28:14.lucky and John is talking about increasing productivity to half a
:28:15. > :28:18.trillion over a five-year period, incredible. We've got to understand
:28:19. > :28:23.numbers and I don't think John does sometimes. Another area where you
:28:24. > :28:27.differ from Jeremy Corbyn, your attitude to Brexit. I don't
:28:28. > :28:30.understand what you are saying, you think the British should have
:28:31. > :28:35.another chance to think about it possibly at a general election? My
:28:36. > :28:39.theory is simple. We don't instantly need a second referendum, we need to
:28:40. > :28:44.reach the point where we know what Brexit means. We've been debating
:28:45. > :28:50.this morning. Theresa May says Brexit means Brexit, I suspect in
:28:51. > :28:55.its worst terms and conditions and will be opening up the NHS... With
:28:56. > :28:59.respect you can do nothing about it. Next Article 50 will be triggered,
:29:00. > :29:04.the Prime Minister has been clear about it on this program- next year,
:29:05. > :29:10.and she has no plans for an election until 2020. If it is triggered next
:29:11. > :29:12.year we will leave in 2019. If you were elected as Labour Prime
:29:13. > :29:14.Minister in the next election it would all be over, what would you
:29:15. > :29:21.do? If she were to trigger article 50
:29:22. > :29:25.before the public knows what the Brexit dealers, that would be a
:29:26. > :29:31.dereliction of duty on her part. She's already negotiating with the
:29:32. > :29:36.USA, Australia, Japan, about trade deals. She's already thinking, I'm
:29:37. > :29:41.sure, about what sort of changes to works' right-centre on condition she
:29:42. > :29:44.will want to impose. It is being said she will finish that's
:29:45. > :29:47.revolution. Once we know what the deal is, that is the point at which
:29:48. > :29:51.we have an extra democratic moment in Britain and I would go into a
:29:52. > :29:54.general election with Labour arguing we should stay in because the terms
:29:55. > :29:58.of the deal are not what was promised to the British public. It
:29:59. > :30:03.is overwhelmingly likely that she does what she says she's going to do
:30:04. > :30:08.and trigger article 50 next year. At which point, it is finished.
:30:09. > :30:12.Negotiations start, we even 2019. You become Labour prime minister in
:30:13. > :30:16.2020, perhaps, and then what do you do? Apply for Britain to rejoin the
:30:17. > :30:21.EU or shrug your shoulders and say it's all over? It is hard to answer
:30:22. > :30:25.because it is hypothetical. At that point if we'd gone into a further
:30:26. > :30:29.recession, if we had the prospect of another ten years of Tory austerity,
:30:30. > :30:33.if they were saying the price for our staying out is opening up the
:30:34. > :30:37.NHS to private sector competition, worse terms and conditions, more
:30:38. > :30:45.flexibility, less red tape, as the Tories would no doubt the bit --
:30:46. > :30:49.daub it, but I think the responsible thing for a Labour government to do
:30:50. > :30:55.would be to say, we are better off in the European Union? Reapply?
:30:56. > :30:58.Hypothetically. The trouble with reapplying is it would take a long
:30:59. > :31:02.time and we would have to accept the euro and Schengen. Potentially but
:31:03. > :31:05.we're getting into hypothetical is built on hypothetical. They've not
:31:06. > :31:11.said definitively... A couple of weeks ago there were -- they were
:31:12. > :31:14.briefing might be 2019 before they trigger article 50. The likelihood
:31:15. > :31:18.is you would become prime minister in a situation where we had already
:31:19. > :31:21.left the EU and you would say that in your view a sensible thing might
:31:22. > :31:26.be to reapply for membership? Depending on what it looks like. I'm
:31:27. > :31:29.an internationalist and a collaborator and cooperated. I want
:31:30. > :31:33.Britain to be part of the European Union. If it is a Labour and
:31:34. > :31:37.reapply, what does that say for all those Labour Party people who voted
:31:38. > :31:41.to leave the EU? There has been a survey done by an academic that
:31:42. > :31:45.suggests that something like seven out of ten Labour constituencies
:31:46. > :31:48.probably voted to leave, and in massive numbers, in the north-east
:31:49. > :31:52.of England and the Midlands. They will look at Owen Smith and say,
:31:53. > :31:56.hold on, he is ignoring what we chose to do, he is not taking this
:31:57. > :32:00.seriously, and that makes him less electable than, for instance, Jeremy
:32:01. > :32:04.Corbyn. Again, it depends when this happens because if we've got into a
:32:05. > :32:08.further recession, if the NHS is on its knees, as it is right now, if
:32:09. > :32:11.we've got the prospect of more Tory austerity, I think we will be
:32:12. > :32:20.telling a very different story to the British people and I think
:32:21. > :32:22.people in those northern cities don't want more reductions in their
:32:23. > :32:24.livelihoods. They want to see investment in their communities and
:32:25. > :32:27.Labour, at some point in the future, may make a really strong case to
:32:28. > :32:30.stay in the EU. Your fundamental pictures that Jeremy Corbyn is less
:32:31. > :32:36.electable than Owen Smith. What possible evidence do you have of
:32:37. > :32:43.that? -- fundamental pitch is. He has been addressing huge crowds on
:32:44. > :32:49.country, at rallies, people go to get selfies for him. I was quite
:32:50. > :32:52.interested by seeing some of the Facebook pages saying that they
:32:53. > :33:00.can't the BBC by saying they were Owen Smith fans, only to turn up and
:33:01. > :33:03.support Jeremy. You can't mistake mass movement... 300,000 people have
:33:04. > :33:07.joined the Labour Party since he became leader. It is the biggest
:33:08. > :33:12.party in Europe and that is all his achievement. Doesn't it show he has
:33:13. > :33:16.mass appeal? He has mass appeal to a small section of the electorate. The
:33:17. > :33:20.reality is that 12 million people are what we need in the Labour
:33:21. > :33:23.movement voting Labour in Tory seats and Labour Seat. I don't think
:33:24. > :33:28.Jeremy can bring that along. If you look at the polls and how I appeal
:33:29. > :33:32.to a much broader cross-section of society, because of the extra
:33:33. > :33:38.credibility that I think I can bring to this. I suggest I'm in a better
:33:39. > :33:43.position to win those votes. Final question, on a scale of one to ten,
:33:44. > :33:46.how likely are you to win? Ten, absolutely. Never answer 7.5. Always
:33:47. > :33:51.say ten. Thank you very much indeed. Mark Thompson's time
:33:52. > :33:53.as Director-General of the BBC coincided with some
:33:54. > :33:55.of the corporation's most turbulent and troubling times,
:33:56. > :33:58.the worst of which was, of course, After eight years at the top
:33:59. > :34:04.of the BBC, Thompson was appointed CEO of the New York Times and has
:34:05. > :34:08.been living in the US ever since. He was back in London recently
:34:09. > :34:11.and he came in to discuss his In it, Mark Thompson claims that
:34:12. > :34:14.language is central to everything that's going wrong
:34:15. > :34:16.in modern politics. It's my view that although there
:34:17. > :34:19.never was a Garden of Eden, there was never a perfect moment,
:34:20. > :34:22.but a number of things have happened - essentially
:34:23. > :34:25.disruption in politics, the break-up of the monopoly
:34:26. > :34:27.of the big parties. Disruption of media,
:34:28. > :34:31.the accelerating effects of media, and the accelerating effect
:34:32. > :34:34.of digital, social All of these things taken together,
:34:35. > :34:37.I think, are producing something So it's basically short soundbites,
:34:38. > :34:43.language that is too crude, too aggressive, stopping people
:34:44. > :34:46.watching and the rest of us from thinking properly about the big
:34:47. > :34:49.political issues ahead of us? I think also the way
:34:50. > :34:53.in which we're struggling now to figure out the authority
:34:54. > :34:57.which expertise brings. This country has had enough
:34:58. > :35:00.of experts, Michael Gove told us. I thought Michael Gove's statement
:35:01. > :35:02.was very telling, that people have Modern government is built
:35:03. > :35:09.on technocracy, it is built on expertise, and it's
:35:10. > :35:12.a very big step to say, though I'm sure Gove
:35:13. > :35:14.is onto something, that many people have simply stopped
:35:15. > :35:17.listening to experts. On the one hand we had
:35:18. > :35:22.the Prime Minister saying that leaving the EU would put a bomb
:35:23. > :35:26.under the economy and the Chancellor saying that we'd have an austerity
:35:27. > :35:29.budget and a very, very tough time to come, really it was going to be
:35:30. > :35:32.the plagues of Egypt visited on Britain if we dared to leave
:35:33. > :35:36.the EU, and on the other side we had people like Michael Gove
:35:37. > :35:39.and Boris Johnson talking about ?350 Certainly wild exaggeration
:35:40. > :35:45.and presenting possibilities I thought overall,
:35:46. > :35:53.I thought the Brexit side... I thought "take back control"
:35:54. > :35:57.and "independence day" represented a kind of victory
:35:58. > :36:00.on the Brexit side. They found pithy, clear benefits you
:36:01. > :36:04.could encapsulate in a few words. Isn't that good politics,
:36:05. > :36:08.framing your argument, finding Sure but I think, you know,
:36:09. > :36:14.in previous generations, There was a time when newspapers
:36:15. > :36:21.printed extensive extracts When I started at the BBC,
:36:22. > :36:27.yes, there'd be the headline, "the lady's not for turning,"
:36:28. > :36:30.but beneath the headline there would be two or three other
:36:31. > :36:33.extracts and precis of what else Margaret Thatcher said,
:36:34. > :36:36.in that case, to the And what's happened is,
:36:37. > :36:40.it's concentrated, in my view, down so that all many voters hear
:36:41. > :36:43.is just these few phrases. Do you think the BBC
:36:44. > :36:45.is partly culpable? Well, I certainly believe -
:36:46. > :36:49.and what's troubling about what's happened is -
:36:50. > :36:53.despite the BBC and despite this extraordinarily large
:36:54. > :36:57.journalistic organisation, I think we are getting into trouble
:36:58. > :37:01.in the UK in the way we talk There are immense forces at play
:37:02. > :37:10.in politics and media. At its best, I think
:37:11. > :37:12.the BBC does try very, very hard to bring context
:37:13. > :37:17.and explanation to the way it does journalism and one of the reasons
:37:18. > :37:21.for having a really strong, powerful, broad BBC is to make
:37:22. > :37:25.sure that the national And of course referendums change
:37:26. > :37:30.things completely because here, on the newspaper review
:37:31. > :37:32.and all the rest of it, we had to balance Brexit
:37:33. > :37:37.versus non-Brexit in every case. Referendums present, I think,
:37:38. > :37:41.very difficult, possibly even, under the current rules,
:37:42. > :37:44.insuperable problems They are going to cease to exist
:37:45. > :37:52.the day the vote happens and you've got to treat them
:37:53. > :37:55.as if they are exactly equally balanced in the polls and,
:37:56. > :37:58.in a sense, if one side produces an eminent economist and the other
:37:59. > :38:01.side produces, you know, Coco the clown, they're sort of treated
:38:02. > :38:04.as if they're somehow equal. So I think there may
:38:05. > :38:06.be a case for looking at the rules for how referenda
:38:07. > :38:09.are covered in broadcasting. This is the first time we've had
:38:10. > :38:14.a chance to talk since the biggest scandal that hit the BBC I think
:38:15. > :38:17.probably ever, the You were clear at the time that
:38:18. > :38:23.you knew nothing about the sexual allegations against him but given
:38:24. > :38:25.that BBC people were investigating and did know about them,
:38:26. > :38:28.was it right that the guy at the top of the organisation,
:38:29. > :38:31.the director-general, didn't know? The normal routine when I
:38:32. > :38:36.was director-general - I'm sure it's still today -
:38:37. > :38:41.would be that every investigation that's under way which is likely
:38:42. > :38:45.to be serious would be written and there was a system for getting
:38:46. > :38:49.it up so I would know about it and I think I knew about
:38:50. > :38:51.virtually all of them. I wasn't, as it happens,
:38:52. > :38:55.informed about this one. Helen Boaden, who was head of news
:38:56. > :39:00.at the time, does say I think it's absolutely common
:39:01. > :39:04.ground that the formal way of doing it did not happen and certainly
:39:05. > :39:07.I knew absolutely nothing, even about the existence
:39:08. > :39:12.of an investigation, until sometime after the decision
:39:13. > :39:15.had been taken to stop the investigation, but I think
:39:16. > :39:17.I should have been told. Do you look back on that
:39:18. > :39:20.episode as a low moment? Well, I think that it's clearly
:39:21. > :39:23.a matter of great regret It's a terrible story
:39:24. > :39:29.but an incredibly important story They had information
:39:30. > :39:34.and in the end... I mean, I understand,
:39:35. > :39:36.I absolutely believe, as Nick Pollard said in his inquiry,
:39:37. > :39:39.that it was done, again, in good faith, that the editor
:39:40. > :39:43.decided not to proceed with that investigation as a matter
:39:44. > :39:46.of great regret. And behind that, obviously,
:39:47. > :39:49.the terrible things Jimmy Savile did in relation to his BBC appointment
:39:50. > :39:52.and many other public organisations is, I think, one of the most
:39:53. > :39:57.shocking stories I've ever heard. We have a new governance,
:39:58. > :40:00.of course, of the BBC now, a new organisation to take
:40:01. > :40:04.over from the BBC Trust, and about almost half the people
:40:05. > :40:07.on that are going to be appointed I think it's not desirable
:40:08. > :40:12.that the majority of people in what is essentially going to be
:40:13. > :40:15.the key decision-making body of the organisation,
:40:16. > :40:17.with editorial decisions inevitably coming up,
:40:18. > :40:20.that the majority should be only And I hope that over the coming
:40:21. > :40:24.weeks a way will be found... There are many ways
:40:25. > :40:28.in which you could have the Government nominating
:40:29. > :40:30.but the independent There are lots of ways
:40:31. > :40:37.it could be solved. I don't think the British
:40:38. > :40:42.public want the BBC to be a government-controlled
:40:43. > :40:43.organisation. I'm not suggesting that's
:40:44. > :40:46.what the Government has in mind They should think
:40:47. > :40:48.again on the detail? Remember, we're talking
:40:49. > :40:51.about a moment where the public at large are really
:40:52. > :40:53.suspicious of elites. It's really important
:40:54. > :41:11.that the Government's arrangements I was talking to Mark Thompson a
:41:12. > :41:16.little earlier and, as you may have noticed, with a different type on!
:41:17. > :41:19.-- tie. One of the most prominent
:41:20. > :41:21.and passionate campaigners for the Remain side in the EU
:41:22. > :41:23.referendum was Amber Rudd. Although she lost that campaign,
:41:24. > :41:26.she was one of the big winners after the vote, becoming
:41:27. > :41:28.the new Home Secretary - apparently the fastest rise of any
:41:29. > :41:30.minister since since She now finds herself in charge
:41:31. > :41:34.of that most fraught of issues in the post
:41:35. > :41:36.Brexit era - immigration. She's with me now for her first
:41:37. > :41:41.major interview since her promotion. Can we start with immigration and
:41:42. > :41:45.the big issues? Do you accept that in the end, it's a balance between
:41:46. > :41:49.access to markets and restricting immigration, as the British public
:41:50. > :41:53.seem to want? You have to balance those two things? I put it slightly
:41:54. > :41:56.differently. What I do think that the British public voted for was to
:41:57. > :42:00.make sure that we reduce immigration from the EU. We have to find a way
:42:01. > :42:04.of doing that and I wouldn't necessarily say that what it needs
:42:05. > :42:07.to do is to do with the single market but what I would say is we
:42:08. > :42:12.have to work out how we can do that while promoting and protecting the
:42:13. > :42:16.economy. What they voted for was to take back control, which implies
:42:17. > :42:20.that you as Home Secretary, in a few years, post-Brexit, if you wanted
:42:21. > :42:23.to, would have absolutely nobody migrating from the EU into this
:42:24. > :42:28.country. You could have a complete slams door if you wanted to. You're
:42:29. > :42:32.absolutely right. Once we leave the EU, we will have complete control
:42:33. > :42:37.over who comes into the UK from the EU and who doesn't, with one or two
:42:38. > :42:41.provisos. First of all, it is going to be reciprocal, we have to work
:42:42. > :42:45.out what is going to be in the UK's interests, going to the EU, and what
:42:46. > :42:47.works our economy, making sure we get the right balance, looking
:42:48. > :42:51.across the whole spectrum is what is going to be the guiding principle.
:42:52. > :42:55.And you are absolutely committed to the tens of thousands target on
:42:56. > :43:00.immigration? I'm completely committed to making sure that we
:43:01. > :43:03.reduce it and yes, tens of thousands, although it will take
:43:04. > :43:08.some time. I would like to ask about how you are going to do that.
:43:09. > :43:11.330,000 people immigrated into this country last year, of which more
:43:12. > :43:15.than half were from none EU countries. You do have control
:43:16. > :43:18.there. If you are going to get to the tens of thousands, you are going
:43:19. > :43:22.to have to radically cut that number, so can I ask you first of
:43:23. > :43:26.all about family reunions. Is that going to stop? I can't tell you
:43:27. > :43:31.which portion of which area of immigration we'll drive down more
:43:32. > :43:36.than the other. Why not, given that you have control over this now?
:43:37. > :43:40.Because we are going to be entering into a negotiation with the EU. I'm
:43:41. > :43:45.not asking about the EU side, I must go about the none EU side. 40,000
:43:46. > :43:48.visas were given last year for family reunions. If you're going to
:43:49. > :43:53.get down to tens of thousands overall, you have to stop that,
:43:54. > :43:57.don't you? No, we don't have to stop that. The tens of thousands is a net
:43:58. > :44:01.amount is there are people who leave and people who come here so when you
:44:02. > :44:05.look at the out of the book appeared, you have to let off the
:44:06. > :44:08.people who have left. The net figure of hundreds of thousands -- tens of
:44:09. > :44:12.thousands is what we are looking at. The gross figure might be hundreds
:44:13. > :44:17.of thousands? Indeed it might be, you would expect it to be if you are
:44:18. > :44:22.netting it off. A much bigger number are the 100 thousand plus visas for
:44:23. > :44:25.students coming into this country. A lot of worry in India and other
:44:26. > :44:28.countries that this will be closed off. What assurance can you give
:44:29. > :44:32.people about the future of student visas from none EU countries? What
:44:33. > :44:36.we've looked at is how we can make sure that the students who come here
:44:37. > :44:41.are coming here for real courses. We've already closed up to 900 bogus
:44:42. > :44:44.callers are just -- colleges and are raising the level you have to start
:44:45. > :44:48.earning want to be the university so you make a real benefit to the UK if
:44:49. > :44:52.you stay here. We are looking at a number of options but students do
:44:53. > :44:55.make an important contribution. There will be no blanket ban
:44:56. > :44:57.students coming into the UK but we are looking at bringing down the
:44:58. > :45:07.numbers overall. Net grows, if you want to do
:45:08. > :45:11.something about family reunions or student fees it is hard to see how
:45:12. > :45:16.you will hit your target. Can we move to the EU side of the argument?
:45:17. > :45:21.Thousands of people coming in, Philip Hammond has said that top
:45:22. > :45:27.bankers or so forth might be excluded from any ban, what about
:45:28. > :45:31.other groups like senior academics, people running research institutes,
:45:32. > :45:34.scientists working in the UK, will they be banned from coming in or a
:45:35. > :46:03.special case? Andrew, it's too early for me to answer those
:46:04. > :46:06.specific questions. I know you want a running commentary on negotiations
:46:07. > :46:08.now! But and not in a position to do that. We want the best of the
:46:09. > :46:10.economy, driving immigration numbers down that keeping people who add to
:46:11. > :46:13.the economy. If you can't dramatically reduce non-EU you will
:46:14. > :46:15.have to move hard on EU emigration as the Brexit vote suggested people
:46:16. > :46:18.want. Thousands of people working in the NHS will born inside the EU and
:46:19. > :46:21.we depend on specialised doctors and nurses of all kinds in the NHS, are
:46:22. > :46:24.you saying that in future they will not come from the EU? The Prime
:46:25. > :46:27.Minister has said we want to protect the people who work here and in the
:46:28. > :46:31.future we will be guided by making sure that we support the people who
:46:32. > :46:36.come to the UK who add value to the economy. I can't tell you how that
:46:37. > :46:43.will be implemented but I can tell you that is the guiding principle.
:46:44. > :46:46.One last area, a very important one, this government is committed to
:46:47. > :46:50.building houses and construction projects. People in charge of the
:46:51. > :46:56.contest construction industry says it can't happen if they don't get
:46:57. > :47:00.the expect ease from the rest of the EU. I don't see us cancelling
:47:01. > :47:04.projects, building in the UK is incredibly important and one
:47:05. > :47:11.principle will be working with Greg Clark in the industrial strategy
:47:12. > :47:14.department to make sure we tailor our requirements for bringing people
:47:15. > :47:18.in from the EU who can add value. I think this is the point that people
:47:19. > :47:25.want when they voted on June 23, make sure that people who come to
:47:26. > :47:30.the UK add value to the economy. OK, many areas depend on migration at
:47:31. > :47:34.the moment, we've talked about construction, the NHS University,
:47:35. > :47:38.the City but a lot of restaurants and coffee shops and such. As
:47:39. > :47:42.secretary he will have to negotiate getting the right and of migration
:47:43. > :47:46.to allow others to without offending those people who do not want
:47:47. > :47:50.migration at all. And who have said we will not have an Australian
:47:51. > :47:55.-based point system. Surely inevitably you will have to have a
:47:56. > :47:58.system for work permits? He'll have to say the construction industry
:47:59. > :48:02.needs a certain number of electricians, we will let in that
:48:03. > :48:06.number, that will be how it will have to work. You're right, we ruled
:48:07. > :48:12.at the points system because it doesn't work. There was non-EU
:48:13. > :48:15.system in the past and it wasn't effective. Whether we could look at
:48:16. > :48:21.work system or another system is something my department is looking
:48:22. > :48:25.at, at the moment. What could another system be? Work permits?
:48:26. > :48:30.That does have value, we are not ruling anything out at the moment.
:48:31. > :48:34.Another story related to this, the European Commission is working on
:48:35. > :48:40.European version of the system that the Americans use for visas if you
:48:41. > :48:43.pay a bit of money, you apply online before you go there and they suggest
:48:44. > :48:48.that once we have left the EU that will apply to all non-volley
:48:49. > :48:56.countries like ours and Turkey and Libya and Japan, - non-EU countries.
:48:57. > :48:58.So any British citizens wanting to visit European countries even to
:48:59. > :49:04.visit relatives or work, they will have to get a Visa or pay money.
:49:05. > :49:09.Your reaction? It is a reminder that this is a two way negotiation. The
:49:10. > :49:12.European Commissioners may be considering alternatives and they
:49:13. > :49:15.will be considering their negotiation with us just as we are
:49:16. > :49:20.with them and I will make sure that what we get is on the best interests
:49:21. > :49:24.of the UK. Will you be offended, will you try to stop that, many
:49:25. > :49:29.people would be surprised if they had to pay money online before they
:49:30. > :49:32.could go to France. And not think it is desirable yet I do not rule it
:49:33. > :49:40.out because we need a free hand to get the best negotiation. Today
:49:41. > :49:45.Boris Johnson has lent his name to an organisation to push for Brexit.
:49:46. > :49:50.He seems to feel there needs to be a ginger group inside the cabinet.
:49:51. > :49:55.Your reaction? I found the Cabinet is pretty united. Obviously there
:49:56. > :49:59.was a robust debate in which I had my moments, before the referendum.
:50:00. > :50:03.Now that we are sitting in Cabinet everyone is focused on delivering
:50:04. > :50:08.what the Prime Minister wants. Lets remind everyone of your most robust
:50:09. > :50:12.moment, one of your most vivid is one in the campaigns! As a bodice,
:50:13. > :50:17.he's the life and soul of the party but he is not the man you want
:50:18. > :50:24.driving your home is the end of the evening -- as for Boris. This is a
:50:25. > :50:28.very serious choice we have to make. And now this man, presumably drunk
:50:29. > :50:32.in charge of the car, is the Foreign Secretary. Has he been veering
:50:33. > :50:38.everywhere since he took the job? He's not the driver, Theresa May is
:50:39. > :50:43.the driver. The rest of us are in the car! Is she heckling from the
:50:44. > :50:49.back seat? She's clear that we are focused in the same direction and we
:50:50. > :50:52.will all do what she directs. He's driving the Foreign Office, given
:50:53. > :50:56.what you said in the campaign and given what he said how hard is it
:50:57. > :51:00.for you to join hands and work together in government? Frankly it
:51:01. > :51:04.doesn't feel difficult because we all take the view that the public is
:51:05. > :51:09.delivered this verdict, we live in a democracy and it is for us is
:51:10. > :51:15.government to deliver on that as well as we can. He is hard Brexit
:51:16. > :51:19.and you are soft Brexit. That is oversimplifying. We all delivering
:51:20. > :51:23.on what the Prime Minister has asked as a result of the referendum. Do
:51:24. > :51:30.you regret some of the things you said in the campaign? Is they might
:51:31. > :51:37.be a half ?1 billion increase in energy bills if we left the EU, that
:51:38. > :51:42.scaremongering? I don't think it is helpful to go over what was said.
:51:43. > :51:45.What I think is more helpful is for people like myself who perhaps
:51:46. > :51:50.believed that at the time to try to work to mitigate those damages by
:51:51. > :51:55.funding opportunities. So you no longer think we will face a half ?1
:51:56. > :51:58.billion increase in energy bills? I think it depends on the steps you
:51:59. > :52:04.take after certain result. We've taken those steps, we have a Brexit
:52:05. > :52:07.department, a trade Department, none of these things were proposed at the
:52:08. > :52:12.time, as a government we will make sure we take the right steps, not
:52:13. > :52:16.only to make this work but to make a success of it. Let me turn to
:52:17. > :52:20.another issue at the front of your agenda, the child abuse inquiry. You
:52:21. > :52:24.said, when the most recent chair, Judge Lowell got up, left, she had
:52:25. > :52:30.gone for personal reasons because she thought lonely. She produced an
:52:31. > :52:34.eight page, angry detailed account of an inquiry that is running out of
:52:35. > :52:43.control, too wide, badly organised and badly managed. And you, the new
:52:44. > :52:48.phase of the government, should have the courage to pull the plug on it.
:52:49. > :52:53.I don't agree with that. I read her letter, it did say at the end that
:52:54. > :52:58.chief felt it lonely, her family still in New Zealand so I used a
:52:59. > :53:04.word that she had used. Four chairs for this inquiry in as many years.
:53:05. > :53:07.It is a difficult job, I've appointed Alexis Jay who I think
:53:08. > :53:11.will do a good job of taking it forward. I want to say, it's not all
:53:12. > :53:14.about what we've done in the past and building on some of the things
:53:15. > :53:18.that the former Foreign Secretary put in place, it's about making sure
:53:19. > :53:25.children are protected going forward, this began meeting with
:53:26. > :53:31.Sadiq Khan to look at potential systems which Jordan who have been
:53:32. > :53:35.abused can be looked after. We are piloting two schemes which will look
:53:36. > :53:39.after 200 children a year, we believe. It is about making sure we
:53:40. > :53:44.learn from the child-abuse scandals of the past and that we act now. A
:53:45. > :53:48.practical suggestion, actually helping people. The danger of
:53:49. > :53:54.inquiries is that they too ambitious, all set up in the emotion
:53:55. > :53:58.the moment with a very, very wide ranging inquiry into all aspects of
:53:59. > :54:02.child abuse come into schools, institutions, everywhere, it is too
:54:03. > :54:05.big and should be narrowed and focused otherwise it will disappoint
:54:06. > :54:11.everyone including victims. Don't agree. I spoke to the victims who
:54:12. > :54:15.have a panel, I spoke to the experts and to Alexis Jay who is now taking
:54:16. > :54:20.on the chair. It is a huge inquiry but incredibly important, if you
:54:21. > :54:23.remember when the scandal 's first started to hit the country was
:54:24. > :54:30.shocked so it is right we have something on this scale. You are a
:54:31. > :54:33.senior Cabinet minister so I can ask you about the seven-day NHS row
:54:34. > :54:37.going on, you just heard it said that it was no longer possible to
:54:38. > :54:42.deliver such an operation given the strain the NHS is under. I don't
:54:43. > :54:47.think he's right. We set out that we would deliver it in our manifesto,
:54:48. > :54:51.the Health Secretary and government consulted Simon Stevens asked what
:54:52. > :54:57.skill of money was needed and we've delivered on it. We know it is a
:54:58. > :55:01.challenge... So what's gone wrong? I'm not sure anything has gone wrong
:55:02. > :55:06.on the scale that he is putting forward, I'm sure we will hear more
:55:07. > :55:10.from him on that. The that we must engage with the energetic
:55:11. > :55:14.leadership. I am proud of the NHS. They've delivered 4000 more
:55:15. > :55:20.operations and aces 2010, and most people anecdotally save their
:55:21. > :55:27.experience has been good. Grammar schools, and enthusiast? Absolutely
:55:28. > :55:33.but not back to the 1950s, now, where parents have a choice of
:55:34. > :55:37.schools, art schools... No sheep and goats then. I said before that you
:55:38. > :55:45.were the fastest rising politician to a high office since the war, any
:55:46. > :55:51.sense of vertigo? Not at all, a tremendous sense of responsibility.
:55:52. > :55:57.This was meant to be a disaster until Theresa May showed that it
:55:58. > :56:01.would not be. Will you travel in her shoes, so to speak? I hope to build
:56:02. > :56:05.on what she's done and focus on things of my own especially working
:56:06. > :56:09.with the vulnerable, I hope that will be my particular area of
:56:10. > :56:12.omission and support. Amber Rudd, thank you for talking to us.
:56:13. > :56:15.And that's all we have time for today, we'll be back next week
:56:16. > :56:17.when my guests will include Liberal Democrat Leader Tim Farron.
:56:18. > :56:21.Until then we will leave you with music from one of the great
:56:22. > :56:24.Back after a six-year hiatus with a new album called Here,
:56:25. > :56:27.they play us out with one of their classic singles.
:56:28. > :56:28.This is Teenage Fanclub, Glasgow's finest, with
:56:29. > :56:39.#It gives me pain when I think of you
:56:40. > :56:45.# And the things together that we'll never do
:56:46. > :56:52.# At first it's cold and then it's hot
:56:53. > :56:58.# Tried to be someone that I know I'm not
:56:59. > :57:24.# I remember you, lines on your face
:57:25. > :57:33.# Sharing a moment in the perfect place
:57:34. > :57:40.# Deep in your eyes and inside your head
:57:41. > :57:46.# And I try to reach you when I'm in my bed
:57:47. > :58:20.# Nothing is greater than to be with you