:00:09. > :00:21.We are poised over the Mersey. This is one of England's great, radical
:00:22. > :00:25.cities. And today's great radical, Jeremy Corbyn, has emerged stronger
:00:26. > :00:37.than ever. We as Labour leader. But can Britain's socialist opposition
:00:38. > :00:45.ever take power? -- he has been re-elected as Labour leader.
:00:46. > :00:56.Jeremy Corbyn joins me to talk about his and Labour's future. I've also
:00:57. > :01:00.been talking to Boris Johnson about Britain's policy abroad. And talking
:01:01. > :01:05.to Bradley Wiggins about charges he has been using illegal, but
:01:06. > :01:08.performance enhancing, drugs. -- legal.
:01:09. > :01:14.In Liverpool I will be getting reaction to the Corbyn victory from
:01:15. > :01:17.our paper reviewers, including the Labour MP Chuka Umunna who backed
:01:18. > :01:23.the losing Owen Smith campaign, and one of momentum's key organisers,
:01:24. > :01:27.Emma Rees. Plus, representing the entire rest of the political
:01:28. > :01:33.spectrum, Elizabeth Hardman of the Spectator. All of that coming up,
:01:34. > :01:35.but first the news. Good morning.
:01:36. > :01:39.Planned strike action by junior doctors in England has been
:01:40. > :01:40.suspended over concerns about patient safety.
:01:41. > :01:42.It's part of an ongoing dispute with the government
:01:43. > :01:46.The news has been welcomed by the Department of Health,
:01:47. > :01:48.but the BMA says it will continue to fight it.
:01:49. > :01:54.It's been a bitter dispute with unprecedented walkouts
:01:55. > :01:56.by junior doctors in England, but now their union,
:01:57. > :02:00.the British Medical Association, has called a halt to the strikes.
:02:01. > :02:02.Escalated action with five-day walkouts had been planned
:02:03. > :02:06.for the next three months, but they have now been suspended
:02:07. > :02:09.after concerns expressed by BMA members.
:02:10. > :02:12.Considering the feedback that we have had from junior
:02:13. > :02:13.doctors, from the public and from our
:02:14. > :02:16.patients, we didn't feel that continuing with a plan of industrial
:02:17. > :02:27.action was something that the NHS could cope with.
:02:28. > :02:30.There are other options available to junior doctors and we will be
:02:31. > :02:32.looking into those, however, patient safety is our primary
:02:33. > :02:34.concern and that's why we have chosen
:02:35. > :02:38.Strike action affecting routine hospital care in England began
:02:39. > :02:42.Then, in April, the first all-out strike by doctors took place.
:02:43. > :02:44.An agreement was reached with the government,
:02:45. > :02:46.but, in July, BMA members rejected the new contract deal.
:02:47. > :02:48.At the end of August, a series of longer escalated
:02:49. > :02:51.Thousands of operations were postponed during the action
:02:52. > :03:07.The Department of Health welcomed the suspension
:03:08. > :03:09.of strikes, but urged the BMA to call off
:03:10. > :03:11.industral action permanently in the interest of patients.
:03:12. > :03:14.Labour Peer, Lord Mitchell says he will resign from the Labour Party
:03:15. > :03:15.following Jeremy Corbyn's re-election as Leader.
:03:16. > :03:18.He claims that Mr Corbyn "has no leadership qualities whatsoever" -
:03:19. > :03:21.and that "he will never become the leader and Prime
:03:22. > :03:25.Speaking on the BBC One Sunday Politics programme,
:03:26. > :03:29.he said he didn't want to stay in the party and fight.
:03:30. > :03:37.I think the Momentum people, Corbyn's pals, have got this party
:03:38. > :03:42.by the throat and they are never going to let it go.
:03:43. > :03:50.I think this is very difficult and it is a hard place to be.
:03:51. > :03:52.A book by David Cameron's former communications director suggests
:03:53. > :03:55.he felt "badly let down" by Theresa May during the EU
:03:56. > :03:57.referendum campaign because she wouldn't support him.
:03:58. > :04:00.Sir Craig Oliver details thirteen occasions when Mrs May
:04:01. > :04:04.refused to make the case for staying in the EU.
:04:05. > :04:06.He also suggests Boris Johnson had last-minute doubts about backing
:04:07. > :04:09.Brexit - telling Mr Cameron in a text that the Leave
:04:10. > :04:19.Diplomats from Britain, France and the US have called
:04:20. > :04:22.for an urgent meeting of the UN Security Council to discuss
:04:23. > :04:24.the continuing violence in Syria's second city, Aleppo.
:04:25. > :04:26.Airstrikes are reported to have killed at least forty-five
:04:27. > :04:28.civilians in the city yesterday and the Syrian government
:04:29. > :04:30.has stepped up strikes on rebel-held areas.
:04:31. > :04:32.The Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson has suggested that
:04:33. > :04:36.Russia could be guilty of a war crime - if it was behind an attack
:04:37. > :04:45.The authorities in the US state of Washington say they've detained
:04:46. > :04:48.a man they wanted to question about the killing of five people
:04:49. > :04:53.A gunman opened fire at the shopping centre
:04:54. > :05:03.The suspect has been named as twenty year-old Arcan Chetin.
:05:04. > :05:05.There is no information on a possible motive for the attack
:05:06. > :05:16.The political season is back in full swing. That's reflected on the front
:05:17. > :05:30.pages of the papers. There is the Sunday Times, evenly divided. No
:05:31. > :05:33.surprise. My victory vindicates me, in the Observer, now I will give
:05:34. > :05:36.power to the members says Jeremy Corbyn. I will be talking to him
:05:37. > :05:44.about what that actually means later on. And this is Sir Craig Oliver's
:05:45. > :05:49.memoirs. He was David Cameron's spin doctor, top man in number ten, and
:05:50. > :05:54.he has written a book which the paper describes as explosive. They
:05:55. > :05:57.are unlikely to do anything else. And the Telegraph, Tony Blair
:05:58. > :06:00.getting involved that big controversy about British troops
:06:01. > :06:05.being prosecuted, or challenged, over their behaviour in Iraq and
:06:06. > :06:16.Afghanistan. Lots to talk about. And the represent momentum -- you
:06:17. > :06:21.represent Momentum. Please start with your story. This is the
:06:22. > :06:27.headline I would choose to describe what happened yesterday. -- not the
:06:28. > :06:30.headline I would choose. It was a great moment for the Labour Party
:06:31. > :06:35.yesterday. We saw Jeremy Corbyn re-elected with an increased
:06:36. > :06:39.mandate. And set out a positive speech about how the party was going
:06:40. > :06:45.to be able to come back together. Made it clear he wanted to wipe the
:06:46. > :06:50.slate clean. Start afresh. We have an excellent campaign day coming up
:06:51. > :06:54.on Saturday. It will bring the party together to oppose the Tories plans
:06:55. > :06:57.to reintroduce Grammar schools. And lots of excitement when that was
:06:58. > :07:05.revealed. People say Momentum is a bunch of ex-trots. How does that
:07:06. > :07:11.feel? That is a misrepresentation of Momentum. Many of our members are
:07:12. > :07:17.very young. And were not around in the 1980s. Don't remember what a
:07:18. > :07:22.trot is. Exactly. I was a primary school teacher until about a year
:07:23. > :07:27.ago. The is made up of people across the UK who are committed to building
:07:28. > :07:29.a better, fairer, decent society. And want politics to be
:07:30. > :07:35.representative and involve people in every community. So, all sorts.
:07:36. > :07:42.Let's join somebody who was around in the 1980s, John Prescott in the
:07:43. > :07:47.Daily Mail. -- in the Sunday Mirror. He says MPs need to say less. He was
:07:48. > :07:52.asked many times to do interviews about the contest but turned them
:07:53. > :07:58.down. He said I kept quiet, I wish some of my colleagues had, too.
:07:59. > :08:03.Certain factors of the party are going to tell other factions to shut
:08:04. > :08:06.up now. -- certain factions of the party. Many blame the modern
:08:07. > :08:12.Blairites. Although I think there are only three left. Blaming them
:08:13. > :08:17.for the whole thing. They've got to find a way to forgive one another
:08:18. > :08:23.and move on if they are to make Labour a fighting force again. You
:08:24. > :08:27.are often referred to as one of those Blairites. But you don't like
:08:28. > :08:34.that label, do you? I don't want to be defined by the passed. He hasn't
:08:35. > :08:38.been the leader for about ten years. We need something different which is
:08:39. > :08:43.relevant to this era. We want to get globalisation to work for more
:08:44. > :08:46.people. We have to move on from this notion of crashing people who
:08:47. > :08:59.disagree with us. The strength, this is my issue, is peace. It is a broad
:09:00. > :09:03.church, the Labour Party. You can only win if you are a broad church
:09:04. > :09:07.political party. For Labour that means you have to take in everybody
:09:08. > :09:10.from the left through to the centre-left. If we don't do that we
:09:11. > :09:18.won't be able to hear all of the divisions in society. So, sects do
:09:19. > :09:23.not win. You really have to get behind Corbyn. Would he make a good
:09:24. > :09:26.Prime Minister? I want our leader to do as well as he possibly can and
:09:27. > :09:31.for him to become Prime Minister. But it isn't all about him. We are
:09:32. > :09:37.not some kind of personality cult fan club, it is about the
:09:38. > :09:41.collective. Corbyn went become PM if -- unless you have the whole party
:09:42. > :09:45.behind him. -- Corbyn will not become PM unless you have the whole
:09:46. > :09:49.party behind him. We've got to move forward if we want to win a general
:09:50. > :09:52.election. And we've got to get in touch with the rest of the world.
:09:53. > :09:58.Internal elections are nice because you get to talk to people who agree
:09:59. > :10:02.with you on things. I campaigned strongly for us to stay in the
:10:03. > :10:05.European Union. Over a third of Labour voters voted for us to leave
:10:06. > :10:09.on the issue of immigration. We can pretend that away. We were going to
:10:10. > :10:16.talk about this later. I don't think we should ignore this, we should
:10:17. > :10:20.challenge the prejudice. Had we find a solution and immigration, for
:10:21. > :10:26.example, that resonates with people but is true with our values. We will
:10:27. > :10:31.be talking about this a great deal later on. The other issue people
:10:32. > :10:35.have been talking about is this word deselection. Will Labour MPs who
:10:36. > :10:39.were not pro-Corbin, and spoke out against him in some cases very
:10:40. > :10:57.viciously, will they now pay the price by losing? -- ro-Corbyn. This
:10:58. > :11:00.is an ideal opportunity for unhappy party members to say, well, we don't
:11:01. > :11:05.like the way you criticise our leader. We don't like the way you've
:11:06. > :11:10.been doing that since the leadership contest. It is time for somebody
:11:11. > :11:20.more representative of our feelings. We have had constituents... Most
:11:21. > :11:21.people are Labour MPs, not because of their fantastic qualities,
:11:22. > :11:27.personal qualities, although they may be, but because they've been
:11:28. > :11:33.chosen by constituency Labour parties. They are Labour Party
:11:34. > :11:36.servants. They are. The onus is on them to recruit members who agree
:11:37. > :11:39.with them. This has been the failure of the moderates, not just in this
:11:40. > :11:43.contest but in the previous one, where they said they would recruit
:11:44. > :11:47.many people who believe with their centrist view of what Labour should
:11:48. > :11:54.be. And they failed each time. And they will keep failing. You talked
:11:55. > :11:59.about asking servants. The ultimate people the Labour Party serve the
:12:00. > :12:04.9.3 million people who elected us. We talking about this? The only
:12:05. > :12:07.deselection chat should be about deselecting the Tory party for the
:12:08. > :12:12.next election. Corbyn has said he doesn't see any need to change the
:12:13. > :12:17.rules. So while we talking about this? We have rules that have for 20
:12:18. > :12:21.odd years. People shouldn't be talking about this. We don't in our
:12:22. > :12:26.party. We want to get rid of the Tory government to get a Labour
:12:27. > :12:30.government. The Tory MPs want to get rid of... Meanwhile, however, we
:12:31. > :12:40.have the dancing round of stories in today's papers not addressing it.
:12:41. > :12:47.Chuka Umunna to the words out of my mouth. Everybody in the Labour Party
:12:48. > :12:50.is sick and tired now of having this internal conversation and all of us
:12:51. > :12:54.want to come together, the whole broad church of the Labour Party,
:12:55. > :12:58.the Labour family, and really put together how we are going to take on
:12:59. > :13:03.the Tories, how we're going to build that opposition government. So, The
:13:04. > :13:07.Mail on Sunday claims that Chuka Umunna is going to take on Jeremy
:13:08. > :13:11.Corbyn before the election. CHUCKLES
:13:12. > :13:15.Was concerned to see this. I think we are all tired everybody who has
:13:16. > :13:20.been out campaigning during the leadership election. We certainly
:13:21. > :13:27.don't want to be entering another leadership in action, the third in
:13:28. > :13:35.one year. Absolutely. Is there a fragment of truth in this? I agree.
:13:36. > :13:39.This issue of the leadership is settled. We don't need to be talking
:13:40. > :13:42.about this any more. We need to be working out how we win the next
:13:43. > :13:47.general election. Ultimately that is the way we put our values into
:13:48. > :13:53.practice. Because I listen to my reviewers, we won't talk any more
:13:54. > :13:57.about the Labour leadership. Now, the Tory leadership. This book by
:13:58. > :14:03.Craig Oliver that has been serialised in The Mail on Sunday. It
:14:04. > :14:06.suggests there is a big problem. This idea that the Labour Party is
:14:07. > :14:11.the only party that has had division in it is blown apart by all of the
:14:12. > :14:16.papers today. Craig Oliver describing Michael Gove as acting
:14:17. > :14:20.like a suicide bomber. The interesting thing about this is, as
:14:21. > :14:24.I said, we are not the only divided party. Secondly, Theresa May is in a
:14:25. > :14:31.fragile situation with that small majority of hers. She has a divided
:14:32. > :14:36.party. You might not see it being aired, but I can tell you from Tory
:14:37. > :14:43.MPs I've spoken to that the sacked and the disgruntled are furious. The
:14:44. > :14:47.litter has been kept on this. Part of the Prime Minister's problem is
:14:48. > :14:52.she has no vision for Brexit. She has no plan. The people arguing for
:14:53. > :14:56.us to leave the EU, who told us they knew what it would look like, they
:14:57. > :14:59.have no plan. It is scandalous that over the summer she had to bring her
:15:00. > :15:07.Cabinet ministers together to brainstorm about this. A lot of this
:15:08. > :15:19.story is about angry Cameroonians here. Yes, and they should take some
:15:20. > :15:22.responsibility. -- Cameronians. It is this thing about hard Brexit
:15:23. > :15:31.against soft Brexit. Would you explain this. In the Commons it was
:15:32. > :15:39.explained as leaving the EU. But now there is this debate about whether
:15:40. > :15:41.we retain single market membership. Whether we can control immigration,
:15:42. > :15:44.something the British people apparently voted for in the
:15:45. > :15:51.referendum. There seems to be a difference of opinion. The three
:15:52. > :15:54.people Theresa May chose to look at this, she is constantly slapping
:15:55. > :15:58.them down every time they give an interview. And Boris, who you will
:15:59. > :16:02.hear later in the programme, will not be easily slapped. Do we get out
:16:03. > :16:07.quickly, and don't be part of the single market, have a complete block
:16:08. > :16:08.and immigration, or do we do it softly? That is the big argument
:16:09. > :16:18.inside the party, isn't it? Craig Oliver's stuff is interesting
:16:19. > :16:24.because it harks back to some of the tensions in the Conservative
:16:25. > :16:34.government. I think there's probably a hint of revenge in this. Can I
:16:35. > :16:38.just put Cameron right at the forefront of that campaign to stay
:16:39. > :16:42.in? That was a mistake. There doesn't seem to be any
:16:43. > :16:45.acknowledgement of that. The other thing that has divided some Tory MPs
:16:46. > :16:49.is the grammar school announcement, the return to grammar schools. I
:16:50. > :16:53.think you've got a story about that? Yes, we've got this in the Sunday
:16:54. > :16:58.express today, which suggests that grammar schools are actually helping
:16:59. > :17:01.the poorest children, which is a peculiar article actually because it
:17:02. > :17:08.really does fly in the face of all of the evidence is on attainment. As
:17:09. > :17:13.I said before, I was a schoolteacher until about a year ago and it's
:17:14. > :17:18.really clear, all education professionals are united on this,
:17:19. > :17:22.that actually is a comprehensive education system is by far the best
:17:23. > :17:27.at raising attainment for everybody, not just small sections of the
:17:28. > :17:31.population. All right. We were going to talk about Donald Trump but we've
:17:32. > :17:34.run out of time. If you're interested in politics on
:17:35. > :17:35.television, Trump versus Clinton will be sensational, watch that
:17:36. > :17:39.later on. Calm has descended on Liverpool
:17:40. > :17:51.after a wild and blustery night. Andrew, all you've succeeded in
:17:52. > :17:55.doing is exporting your wild and blustery night further to the east
:17:56. > :18:01.A not do Menglu Ma tool -- not all doom and gloom, this was the scene
:18:02. > :18:03.in Hornchurch. There was the wet weather that dominated the scene
:18:04. > :18:10.across western Britain through yesterday. Now it's moving further
:18:11. > :18:15.east. None of that really describes the day as a whole, which, for the
:18:16. > :18:19.most part, will be one of Sunny spells and then a lot of blustery
:18:20. > :18:24.showers and I mean a look of blustery showers. There may be a one
:18:25. > :18:28.bowl of thunder and a bit of hail. Nowhere near as warm as it was
:18:29. > :18:35.yesterday. A fresher feel wherever you are. Overnight, some of the
:18:36. > :18:40.showers will fade away in the south, only to be replaced later on in the
:18:41. > :18:44.night by a new area of low pressure with this cloud and wind and rain
:18:45. > :18:48.piling towards Wales and the West of England. Some clearer skies further
:18:49. > :18:53.north in Scotland. Looks like Monday will be one of those days, as the
:18:54. > :18:57.rain creeps closer to the north and east. The best of the conditions,
:18:58. > :19:00.Andrew, you will be glad to hear if you're heading out up towards the
:19:01. > :19:04.north of Scotland or indeed the north of Northern Ireland.
:19:05. > :19:13.Boris Johnson, now our Foreign Secretary, has been
:19:14. > :19:15.attending his first UN General Assembly in the US
:19:16. > :19:17.and he joined me via satellite from Boston yesterday.
:19:18. > :19:19.I began by asking him about Jeremy Corbyn's re-election
:19:20. > :19:22.as Labour leader and I suggested to him that the Labour Left
:19:23. > :19:24.might yet prove a serious threat to Tory Britain.
:19:25. > :19:31.Well, I must say that I don't really think so, Andrew. Of course Jeremy
:19:32. > :19:36.Corbyn's victory is by a considerable margin, then this is a
:19:37. > :19:41.very small minority of voters who have chosen him. They have a
:19:42. > :19:44.particular view of the world. But I'm afraid that they have a series
:19:45. > :19:49.of policies that I think would make Britain less economically secure and
:19:50. > :19:55.less secure on the world stage as well. If you look at Corbyn's
:19:56. > :19:59.policies on taxation, he wants to whack up taxes and borrow stupendous
:20:00. > :20:03.sums of money, which the country can't afford. I think his economic
:20:04. > :20:14.programme is extremely dangerous, some left wing and 1970s Dave Sparks
:20:15. > :20:18.style agenda. He wants to abolish the army, he wants our nuclear
:20:19. > :20:22.submarines to go to sea without nuclear missiles aboard them, so the
:20:23. > :20:28.whole country is literally firing blanks! I mean, it's not serious. I
:20:29. > :20:36.accept that he has substantial support, but as I say, my belief is
:20:37. > :20:41.that this is really a small proportion of the overall electorate
:20:42. > :20:44.and the vast middle ground can now see that it is one nation
:20:45. > :20:48.Conservatives who are offering a united programme to take the country
:20:49. > :20:52.forward and drive up standards in schools, keep the economy motoring
:20:53. > :20:58.along and project Britain across the world. Let me ask you about the
:20:59. > :21:03.timing of article 50. You suggested early next year. Donald Tusk has
:21:04. > :21:10.said January February seems likely. Is that where we're heading? Well, I
:21:11. > :21:15.think the crucial thing is that, obviously we're not going to do it
:21:16. > :21:24.before Christmas and I think we've got to do a lot of work to get our
:21:25. > :21:28.ducks in order and that is going on, but then after that, as the Prime
:21:29. > :21:32.Minister has rightly said, this process probably shouldn't drag on.
:21:33. > :21:38.I think what Donald Tusk wants, what everybody wants, what everybody in
:21:39. > :21:44.the UK I think once, is clarity and getting on with it. And not letting
:21:45. > :21:53.the process drag on, I think that is the key phrase I would use. And the
:21:54. > :22:00.opportunity is to do a deal that I think would be very much in the
:22:01. > :22:04.interests not only of the UK but also our friends and partners in the
:22:05. > :22:10.EU. Having spent a lot of time in the last week or so talking to other
:22:11. > :22:13.countries, they're starting to see the opportunities from Brexit. I'm
:22:14. > :22:17.just interested in the timing of article 50. Everyone is at the
:22:18. > :22:20.moment. George Osborne has said recently we really ought to wait
:22:21. > :22:24.until the end of next year because, and he makes a good point, the
:22:25. > :22:28.French and the Germans are going to have elections and we don't who we
:22:29. > :22:31.are going to be with in Paris and Berlin and that is really, really
:22:32. > :22:37.important, and in his view, we can't get on with it until we know who we
:22:38. > :22:42.are talking to. Look, I think I've given you a pretty full and fair
:22:43. > :22:46.answer there. We want to not do it by Christmas but obviously we can't
:22:47. > :22:50.let the process drag on. If you think about it, there are obviously
:22:51. > :22:53.Euro elections coming down the track and I think people would be
:22:54. > :23:02.wondering whether we want to be sending a fresh batch of UK Euro
:23:03. > :23:07.MPs. To an institution that we are, after all, going to be leaving. So
:23:08. > :23:11.let's get on with it, let's not let it drag on, as the PM has said. I
:23:12. > :23:18.think we can be incredibly positive... What George Osborne has
:23:19. > :23:23.said... Talking to businesses here in Boston, what is really
:23:24. > :23:27.enthusiastic is how enthusiastic they are about stepping up their
:23:28. > :23:32.business with the UK. The economy has been going well and is a lot of
:23:33. > :23:37.those warnings about the economy post Brexit seem to have been wrong
:23:38. > :23:42.so far. For us to carry on, we need lots of skilled migrant workers with
:23:43. > :23:49.specific skills still coming into the country. You said you were the
:23:50. > :23:52.only politician in the country pretty much prepared to stand up and
:23:53. > :24:00.say you are pro-immigration. Are you still pro-immigration? Yes sir! That
:24:01. > :24:03.means exactly as I say, I want skilled and talented people to come
:24:04. > :24:07.to UK if they want to make their lives and fulfil their dreams in our
:24:08. > :24:14.country, I have no problem with that provided we have control. The last
:24:15. > :24:22.figures we have, 333,000 people came in a net, from around the world.
:24:23. > :24:27.That is a huge sum. Around 175,000 net from the EU, in an uncontrolled
:24:28. > :24:31.way. I think most people in the country would say those numbers are
:24:32. > :24:34.too high. But for they economy to keep on growing, we need
:24:35. > :24:45.considerable numbers into the construction industry, the NHS,
:24:46. > :24:50.banking... People who voted thinking there would be no more immigration
:24:51. > :24:59.will be completely wrong. Well, two things. You say that we need
:25:00. > :25:06.immigration, immigrants to do all these things in construction and the
:25:07. > :25:10.NHS... To a certain extent that is true but we've also got to invest in
:25:11. > :25:16.our own young people and invest the skills of people growing up in this
:25:17. > :25:21.country. For 25 years, UK business and industry has been mainlining
:25:22. > :25:25.immigration like a kind of drug without actually investing enough or
:25:26. > :25:29.caring enough, frankly, about the skills and training of young people
:25:30. > :25:33.in our country. That is what Theresa May and the new government will want
:25:34. > :25:38.to focus on. A lot of people voted for Brexit because they saw the
:25:39. > :25:45.adverts for more money coming into the NHS. The ?350 million was much
:25:46. > :25:50.discussed and if you drill down into vote leave's figures, it is actually
:25:51. > :25:54.more like ?100 million a year. Andrew Lansley has suggested that
:25:55. > :26:03.the NHS should be getting more like ?5 billion a year because of Brexit.
:26:04. > :26:08.Can you pledge as a member of the new government that it will happen
:26:09. > :26:15.by the end of this Parliament, providing we've left? Yes, in the
:26:16. > :26:20.sense that, clearly, once we leave, this isn't possible until that final
:26:21. > :26:23.moments of the change in our arrangements and we take back
:26:24. > :26:29.control of the budgets we contribute to the EU, once that happens, as
:26:30. > :26:33.we've always said, nearly it will be possible for the UK Government to
:26:34. > :26:37.spend people's money on our priorities. The number one priority
:26:38. > :26:42.for most people is indeed the NHS. It sounds to me like Andrew Lansley
:26:43. > :26:45.has got it right. You've been talking in the States about the
:26:46. > :26:49.massive refugee crisis around the world and of course the refugee
:26:50. > :26:55.crisis is driven by the war in Syria, a ferocious assault now going
:26:56. > :27:07.on against Aleppo. Our planes in action in Mosul. If the attack on
:27:08. > :27:11.the aid convoy isn't a war crime, what is it? Well, Andrew, I think
:27:12. > :27:15.that is the right question to ask. A war crime is defined as when you
:27:16. > :27:21.attack a civilian target in the knowledge that it is a civilian
:27:22. > :27:25.target. Putin's regime is not only, as it were, handing Assad the
:27:26. > :27:30.revolver, but in some instances he is actually firing the revolver
:27:31. > :27:36.himself, the Russians are actually in gauged. We have an absolutely
:27:37. > :27:39.tragic situation now in Aleppo, which is being bombed, repeatedly
:27:40. > :27:50.bombed in a way which is absolutely barbaric. Yes, if you say to me that
:27:51. > :27:55.the West is too impotent, I would have to agree. I would have to agree
:27:56. > :28:01.that since we took those decisions in 2013, since the red lines were
:28:02. > :28:05.crossed, we have not really had a viable military response or any kind
:28:06. > :28:09.of kinetic response, as it were, do what is going on. I don't think
:28:10. > :28:13.there is any real appetite for such a thing. We are tightening sanctions
:28:14. > :28:20.against Russia and the UK is in the lead on that, very firm on that. But
:28:21. > :28:25.I think there is one thing that the Russians respond to. That is the
:28:26. > :28:30.idea that it is they who are in the dock in the Court of international
:28:31. > :28:34.opinion. They are guilty of attracting this war and making it
:28:35. > :28:45.far more hideous. When it comes to instances such as them bombing of
:28:46. > :28:49.the aid convoys... They don't really care, do they? We should be looking
:28:50. > :28:51.at whether that is done in the knowledge that those were wholly
:28:52. > :28:55.civilian targets. Because that would be a war crime. In other
:28:56. > :29:01.circumstances we might have been talking to you as our new Prime
:29:02. > :29:04.Minister. During the summer, your reputation was brutally and publicly
:29:05. > :29:07.assassinated by Michael Gove. Have you had a conversation with him
:29:08. > :29:13.since and have you forgiven him for that? Well, I'm very, very happy to
:29:14. > :29:20.be doing the job that I'm doing. I think what people want us to do in
:29:21. > :29:24.politics... Not in my opinion! If you'll forgive me, get on and
:29:25. > :29:29.deliver the agenda that Theresa May and the new government... Have you
:29:30. > :29:34.forgiven Michael Gove for what he said about you? Have you spoken to
:29:35. > :29:37.him at all? I think, if I may say so, people are probably more
:29:38. > :29:49.interested in the tragic plight of people in Aleppo than
:29:50. > :29:57.in the microsomographica of the Tory infighting. Theresa May has run onto
:29:58. > :30:04.the field, grabbed the ball and headed off into the car park. Is it
:30:05. > :30:11.all over for you as a Prime Minister or does the ambition still burn? I
:30:12. > :30:15.think the ambition that burns in the whole government is to get an and
:30:16. > :30:19.deliver for the people of this country a government that works for
:30:20. > :30:23.everybody in the UK. That's what we want to do and we set out a very
:30:24. > :30:28.ambitious programme. If you look at what we're doing with schools and
:30:29. > :30:32.what we're doing with the economy, I think we're going to take this
:30:33. > :30:38.country forward. Of course I'm very, very proud to be representing our
:30:39. > :30:41.country as Foreign Secretary. I tell you one thing that absolutely amazes
:30:42. > :30:46.me, Andrew, I've been knocking around a bit in the UN General
:30:47. > :30:51.Assembly and I think people in Britain have no idea the kind of
:30:52. > :30:55.stuff that Britain is doing around the world and the respect and
:30:56. > :31:00.affection in which we are held by ordinary people around the world. We
:31:01. > :31:08.are a global player and we should not forget it. Boris Johnson, thanks
:31:09. > :31:08.a lot for talking to us. Thank you. Boris Johnson, imperturbable
:31:09. > :31:12.statesman. The world of international cycling
:31:13. > :31:15.was turned upside down by the Lance Armstrong doping
:31:16. > :31:16.and cheating scandal. Now, the hero
:31:17. > :31:19.of British cycling, our most garlanded Olympian,
:31:20. > :31:21.Sir Bradley Wiggins, faces accusations that he used drugs
:31:22. > :31:23.which can enhance performance before key races, including
:31:24. > :31:28.the 2012 Tour de France. When I spoke to him this week
:31:29. > :31:42.I asked what he'd used and why. It was prescribed for allergies and
:31:43. > :31:47.respiratory problems. I've been a lifelong sufferer of asthma. I went
:31:48. > :31:50.to my team doctor at the time. We went to a specialist to see if there
:31:51. > :31:56.was anything we could do to cure these problems. He said there is
:31:57. > :32:03.something. But you will need authorisation from... You had to ask
:32:04. > :32:06.for permission? You have to provide evidence from a specialist that they
:32:07. > :32:11.will then scrutinise with three independent doctors and authorise
:32:12. > :32:14.you to take this product. At that point, once I have the certificate
:32:15. > :32:20.from the world anti-doping agency and the governing body, only then do
:32:21. > :32:26.you the medication. Trouble is, lots of people say it is a performance
:32:27. > :32:29.enhancer. There was a German cyclist who said after he had taken it you
:32:30. > :32:34.are going to suffer less, you will be less tired as your recuperation
:32:35. > :32:36.is faster because of the anti-inflammatory effects. Other
:32:37. > :32:41.people have said the same kind of thing. David Miller said it was the
:32:42. > :32:45.most potent drug he had ever taken. But they were abusing that drug in
:32:46. > :32:50.that error. They were simply taking more of it. More of it and abusing
:32:51. > :32:56.it. This was to cure a medical condition and was... Was... The
:32:57. > :33:01.governing body, the world anti-doping agency, said... This was
:33:02. > :33:04.not about trying to find a way to gain an unfair advantage, this was
:33:05. > :33:09.about putting myself back on a level playing field to compete at the
:33:10. > :33:18.highest level. The first couple of times you were clearly unwell. But
:33:19. > :33:22.the third time, before the 2012 Tour de France, you would a favourite,
:33:23. > :33:27.there seemed to be no medical problems, yet you took it again. I
:33:28. > :33:32.struggle in that period. June, July, that's the worst period. April,
:33:33. > :33:37.June, July... Those are the worst months. I was having problems. When
:33:38. > :33:44.you are a few weeks out, you are the favourite for the Tour de France,
:33:45. > :33:49.Team Sky, you had the medical team, coaches checking everything, telling
:33:50. > :33:53.us that -- are telling me I was on track. They ask is there anything we
:33:54. > :33:56.can help with. I said I was struggling with my breathing last
:33:57. > :34:00.week. Is there anything else I can do to make sure that this doesn't
:34:01. > :34:06.become an issue into a three-week race at the height of the season. In
:34:07. > :34:10.turn I take that medical advice. We should emphasise that nobody is
:34:11. > :34:15.suggesting you've done anything illegal. But David Walsh, who was
:34:16. > :34:18.the journalist who exposed Lance Armstrong was invited in by Team Sky
:34:19. > :34:23.to watch you all. He has been involved with you. He says it isn't
:34:24. > :34:29.illegal but it looks bad. Do you understand that? Yes, I can
:34:30. > :34:34.understand, there is still an open wound in our sport. This drug was
:34:35. > :34:38.abused back in that era. But even with the needle comment I made, this
:34:39. > :34:42.was about, at that time if I can paint a picture of the landscape in
:34:43. > :34:51.2012, right at the height of Lance Armstrong, and just before the crash
:34:52. > :34:57.with him. The have you ever used needles? That was always a question
:34:58. > :35:00.about doping. Nobody ever asked the question, have you ever had an
:35:01. > :35:07.injection by a medical professional to treat or cure a medical
:35:08. > :35:11.condition? There two sides. There was very much a doping emphasis in
:35:12. > :35:15.the question. You said I haven't been injected, I haven't used
:35:16. > :35:19.needles except for vaccinations, but that wasn't true, was it? The
:35:20. > :35:25.medical conditions. I wasn't writing the book. I was writing it with a
:35:26. > :35:27.cycling journalist who was knowledgeable and the sport and had
:35:28. > :35:39.lived through the Evra of the Lance Armstrong error and the doping era.
:35:40. > :35:43.-- the era of Lance Armstrong and the doping era. At the time Team Sky
:35:44. > :35:48.were promoting its latest achievements. Somebody said that
:35:49. > :35:53.blue stripe represents the difference between doping and doing
:35:54. > :35:56.something illegal, and we push up against the limits of what is
:35:57. > :35:59.allowable. We are professional, we are tough, we do everything we can
:36:00. > :36:06.to win, but we never crossed that line. Do you accept that in this you
:36:07. > :36:11.have been up against the line? We have rules and legislation in our
:36:12. > :36:17.sport. We are governed by the cycling governing body and the
:36:18. > :36:21.anti-doping agency. As athletes we don't invent those rules. We have to
:36:22. > :36:26.abide by those rules. Team Sky, bigger cycling team in the world,
:36:27. > :36:31.100%, everything they have done has been within the rules and they have
:36:32. > :36:40.abided by the rules set to us. We are being scrutinised for abiding by
:36:41. > :36:45.the speed limit. Team Sky has had a very hard time from lots of other
:36:46. > :36:47.countries. The French and others have been borderline insinuating
:36:48. > :36:52.about your team because you've done so well. They ask, are you
:36:53. > :36:57.superhumans, what is going on? Is this the kind of thing you can live
:36:58. > :37:02.with now? The sport lives with that. Whoever is leading in the sport. At
:37:03. > :37:06.the moment it is Team Sky leading the way. They are setting the
:37:07. > :37:11.standard for everybody. They are the best at what they do. Unfortunately,
:37:12. > :37:15.when you are the best at what you do comes scrutiny. Especially in a
:37:16. > :37:18.sport with a tainted history. You are here in the cycling world. You
:37:19. > :37:23.are interested in politics. You've always been a Labour supporter. You
:37:24. > :37:26.invited Jeremy Corbyn to help when you are editing programme. There is
:37:27. > :37:31.a guy who is a keen cyclist, could do with some help, are interested in
:37:32. > :37:36.helping him in some way? I don't think he needs it. I've met him.
:37:37. > :37:46.Lovely fellow. I don't agree with everything he is for. I think the
:37:47. > :37:49.world is changing at a fast pace. My family has been historically Labour,
:37:50. > :37:53.so has my wife's family, but I think Theresa May has done a great job in
:37:54. > :37:58.stabilising the country in the short term after the holder Barco in the
:37:59. > :38:08.summer. Thank you very much. -- after the whole the debacle --.
:38:09. > :38:14.This victory of yours changes things for the Labour Party. What is the
:38:15. > :38:17.major thing it changes? I've been elected by a substantial majority of
:38:18. > :38:20.the leadership supporters and affiliates. I think that is an
:38:21. > :38:25.indication that the members want our party to challenge the government
:38:26. > :38:28.and austerity and change to go in the direction of saying we want a
:38:29. > :38:33.more equal and decent society. And that is what we will campaign on. I
:38:34. > :38:35.started yesterday by announcing we will do an education campaign in
:38:36. > :38:50.Gaelic Saturday about grammar schools and 11 plus. -- education
:38:51. > :38:54.campaign day on Saturday. The Labour Party has a behind closed doors way
:38:55. > :38:59.of making policy at the moment. Are you saying you want decisions to be
:39:00. > :39:09.taken by an open vote? That is a good description. What I want is a
:39:10. > :39:13.more open party. I want members and supporters involved in all aspects
:39:14. > :39:18.of party decision-making. I've asked the national executive to look at
:39:19. > :39:19.the ways we can democratise in bringing more members into
:39:20. > :39:22.decision-making, policy-making, coming from the grassroots, and
:39:23. > :39:30.greater trade union membership involvement in it. There is a thirst
:39:31. > :39:33.for change. If somebody watching has joined the party recently, has
:39:34. > :39:38.supported you come is part of this new membership, they might want to
:39:39. > :39:43.say is through their local party in, I don't know, policy over Trident,
:39:44. > :39:48.nationalisation, whatever it may be, are you saying you agree this people
:39:49. > :39:51.should have a bigger voice? I want more powerful members and supporters
:39:52. > :39:58.to ensure we have policies that have support throughout the whole party.
:39:59. > :40:01.We are opposed to what the government's overall economic
:40:02. > :40:08.strategy is. But there is also a question of what you invest in, how
:40:09. > :40:11.you invest, which roadworks you change, which railways you change,
:40:12. > :40:20.which broadband you support, which industry you support. There are lots
:40:21. > :40:24.of skill sets out there. We'll members get a big majority of voting
:40:25. > :40:33.in those decisions? -- will. If you were a new member will your vote be
:40:34. > :40:37.as powerful? I would like people to participate more. Much more online
:40:38. > :40:42.policy development. Much more online policy-making, as well. Big exciting
:40:43. > :40:45.conferences, with votes on the floor, and you don't know which way
:40:46. > :40:51.they are going to go. I remember them from the past. You were excited
:40:52. > :40:56.by them. Of course, I was a journalist. Yes, it needs to move
:40:57. > :40:59.much more to the centre of concluding our policy debates.
:41:00. > :41:03.People can then see what discussions we are having. I think that is a
:41:04. > :41:07.healthy thing to do. A conference should be representative of members
:41:08. > :41:11.and their views. You have success inside the party. It is nothing to
:41:12. > :41:14.the challenge of becoming the new Prime Minister. If you want to be a
:41:15. > :41:17.successful socialist Prime Minister in this party you cannot do that
:41:18. > :41:21.unless you have a Parliamentary party at your back who support you.
:41:22. > :41:27.I know there are lots of argument about deselection. But in the end,
:41:28. > :41:30.doesn't that mass membership, with their views, deserve to be
:41:31. > :41:33.represented properly in the House of Commons, and don't you, if you are
:41:34. > :41:38.ever going to be a socialist Prime Minister, need to have the support
:41:39. > :41:41.that you don't have now? I'm reaching out our MPs. Discussing
:41:42. > :41:46.with them. We have talented people. There are some differences in policy
:41:47. > :41:51.opinion. But there is also a great deal of unanimity about it. Look at
:41:52. > :41:54.the campaign and selection of education. Look at the campaign of
:41:55. > :41:58.the NHS, workplace benefits, all those issues. The party is actually
:41:59. > :42:03.quite united. They walked out of your Shadow Cabinet. Terrible things
:42:04. > :42:09.were set on all sides during the election campaign. -- terrible
:42:10. > :42:12.things were said about you on all sides during the election campaign?
:42:13. > :42:17.Really, well, you've only got half an hour. Surely those people have
:42:18. > :42:22.now got to shut up. They cannot carry on saying those things about
:42:23. > :42:27.you, your uselessness, their word, now you have won a second leadership
:42:28. > :42:31.campaign. I've never said anything personal about any of them. I don't
:42:32. > :42:36.use that kind of language. I dedicated body else should -- I
:42:37. > :42:41.don't think anybody else should. Let's move on. That's what I said in
:42:42. > :42:46.my speech yesterday. Move on, keep your lips tighter. Move on and
:42:47. > :42:49.discuss policies where you agree or disagree, but your contribution into
:42:50. > :42:54.the debate, put your contribution into what we do in Parliament,
:42:55. > :42:58.represent your people, put your contribution in to making your party
:42:59. > :43:01.and movement stronger. We have a massive membership. Everybody should
:43:02. > :43:05.be pleased about that. You've dismissed in the past the idea of
:43:06. > :43:11.deselection of MPs going around the country. One, it's already
:43:12. > :43:17.happening, there are places, one is near here, there is one in Hove,
:43:18. > :43:22.there are moves to remove Blairite candidates. Is your message, don't
:43:23. > :43:27.do that, that is perpetuating the divisions? My message is,
:43:28. > :43:30.concentrate on policies, the campaign, concentrate on what we
:43:31. > :43:36.should be putting out as a message. My message to MPs is that you agree
:43:37. > :43:41.on the policies, go out there, and do it. But we are going through a
:43:42. > :43:54.change. Every constituency boundary is going to be changed. Therefore, a
:43:55. > :43:58.new selection will have to take place in every single constituency
:43:59. > :44:00.where the sitting MP with a substantial geographical coverage to
:44:01. > :44:05.the new area will automatically be short listed. Do you want to see
:44:06. > :44:09.most of those MPs reinstated as Labour candidates, or would you like
:44:10. > :44:13.to see the Labour Party, after this process, that is more representative
:44:14. > :44:18.in your kind of politics? I wish them well. The relationship between
:44:19. > :44:26.an MP and their constituents is a conjugated one. It is not all of the
:44:27. > :44:33.policy kick -- it is not all of the policy box ticking stuff. Let's have
:44:34. > :44:37.a democratic discussion. The vast majority of the MPs have no problem
:44:38. > :44:44.whatsoever. Lord Mitchell, who has just resigned, has said today that
:44:45. > :44:50.he has to go because he believes Momentum, Corbyn's people, he says,
:44:51. > :44:54.have them by the throat. But then he says something disturbing. Has he
:44:55. > :45:01.met anybody in Momentum? Spoke to anybody in Momentum? I haven't asked
:45:02. > :45:05.him. This goes back to issues in the past. He says it is difficult if you
:45:06. > :45:11.are Jewish and you support Israel to be a member of the Labour Party.
:45:12. > :45:13.That is disturbing, isn't it? It is unfortunate he would say that
:45:14. > :45:18.because it isn't a fair comment. I would hope he would reflect on that.
:45:19. > :45:23.Clearly there are diverse views within the party and issues in the
:45:24. > :45:27.Middle East. But there is unity in the party of opposing any form of
:45:28. > :45:33.anti-Semitism, any form of racism, that is very clear in the party. Let
:45:34. > :45:37.me move on to be policy issues. You said there were two areas you wanted
:45:38. > :45:42.to take to the Tories. One is Brexit, and one is the economy and
:45:43. > :45:45.austerity. When it comes to Brexit, do you accept that all of those
:45:46. > :45:49.people, or many of those people who voted to leave the EU, did so
:45:50. > :45:52.because they were worried about the scale of migration? Boris Johnson
:45:53. > :45:56.said this country has been mainlining on too much migration for
:45:57. > :45:57.too long. And therefore there needs to be a cut in the number of
:45:58. > :46:07.migrants coming to this country? It's quite hard to keep up with
:46:08. > :46:12.Boris Johnson's changes of opinion can actually. That is his latest, is
:46:13. > :46:16.it? Free movement of people, does it have to end, in your view? I think
:46:17. > :46:22.if we have a market arrangement with Europe, there's going to be a demand
:46:23. > :46:25.by Europe that is absolutely clear, particularly by Germany, that has to
:46:26. > :46:28.include the rights of people to work in different parts of the European
:46:29. > :46:33.Union and Britain, which will then be outside the European Union but
:46:34. > :46:37.part of the market. There is then the question of British people
:46:38. > :46:41.working in Europe and British people with homes in Europe. If I can just
:46:42. > :46:46.include the point, the other issue which is the one that caused the
:46:47. > :46:50.most concern is the undercutting of wages and conditions and the impact
:46:51. > :46:55.of immigration on some communities. A migrant impact fund to deal with
:46:56. > :47:01.that but also the undercutting of wages, bringing people in on lower
:47:02. > :47:05.than local wages and destroying local wages, for example in
:47:06. > :47:09.Lincolnshire the average wage is a lot lower than elsewhere in the
:47:10. > :47:15.country and it infuriates a lot of voters. The basic question is going
:47:16. > :47:18.to be, this is and I committed inside the Government too, hard
:47:19. > :47:24.Brexit or soft Brexit? Do we accept that we don't have access to those
:47:25. > :47:27.markets but we turn off the tab on immigration and end the free
:47:28. > :47:32.movement? At some point you're going to have to say, either yes, I accept
:47:33. > :47:38.an end to free movement or no, I'm in favour of free movement, say
:47:39. > :47:42.which is it? If we had a hard Brexit, there would be a huge hit
:47:43. > :47:48.taken on manufacturing in Great Britain. 70% of British exports go
:47:49. > :47:53.to Europe and we would be hid very badly. If the vision is of Britain
:47:54. > :48:00.as sort of a tax haven offshore island from Europe with great levels
:48:01. > :48:04.of inequality and also most manufacturing industries, I'm not
:48:05. > :48:07.sure that is something that is very appetising to most people in this
:48:08. > :48:11.country. They want to deal with Europe which does protect those
:48:12. > :48:14.markets, which does ensure there is not this undercutting process, that
:48:15. > :48:25.there is some equality across Europe. I have been reaching out by
:48:26. > :48:30.meeting European socialists so we have some sort of agreement on what
:48:31. > :48:38.sort of future economic agreement we have -- economic relationship with
:48:39. > :48:42.Europe. That is the key question. Britain has not negotiated a trade
:48:43. > :48:46.treaty for 40 years. Ministers have said that Parliament is not going to
:48:47. > :48:51.be told how those negotiations are going, none of the detail, until it
:48:52. > :48:56.is all over and the deal is done. Do you think it is democratic and
:48:57. > :49:01.sustainable? I don't think it is democratic or sustainable at all. It
:49:02. > :49:05.is the most significant economic issue facing Britain in mine or your
:49:06. > :49:11.lifetime. At the very least I think Parliament should be fully informed
:49:12. > :49:14.and told. We've set up a Brexit team, led by Emily Thornbury, our
:49:15. > :49:22.Shadow Foreign Secretary, that is meeting here but is also meeting in
:49:23. > :49:26.Brussels and meeting our colleagues across Europe and have invited
:49:27. > :49:31.leaders from trade unions and socialist from Europe to come to
:49:32. > :49:35.London for a full conference on how we will work with them to ensure
:49:36. > :49:38.that we accept the result of the referendum, we understand the result
:49:39. > :49:44.of the referendum, but we build a strong economic relationship with
:49:45. > :49:47.Europe in the future. That is what a strong opposition should do and it's
:49:48. > :49:54.as a shame that the government can't do the same. A ?500 billion infusion
:49:55. > :49:59.into the British economy, that is an eye watering some, to give people a
:50:00. > :50:03.sense, about 70% of everything the government spends in this country,
:50:04. > :50:07.in one year. That is a huge increase in borrowing. I know in Crest rates
:50:08. > :50:14.are low at the moment but they go up as well as down. Have you any
:50:15. > :50:19.calculation is as to how much British taxpayers would have to
:50:20. > :50:23.spend if you do this? It would be an investment that brings in greater
:50:24. > :50:27.tax income. We've had six years of austerity in Britain and six years
:50:28. > :50:31.of austerity that has reduced wages and living standards for many
:50:32. > :50:35.people, cut public services in many places and has not resulted in the
:50:36. > :50:39.economic growth that the Government predicted. We're saying, invest in
:50:40. > :50:46.order to grow. How did you come up with ?500 billion? A calculation
:50:47. > :50:54.based on the... Obviously there is an approximation. It's not just a
:50:55. > :51:00.nice round figure? It is a nice round figure! But it gives you the
:51:01. > :51:04.infrastructure you need on railways, broadband, the investment you need
:51:05. > :51:07.in developing high-tech, sustainable industries in Britain, which this
:51:08. > :51:13.government is paid in the not doing. We don't have a banking system that
:51:14. > :51:19.is prepared to invest in them, we're losing our industries elsewhere.
:51:20. > :51:23.This is very much the language of previous Labour governments, funding
:51:24. > :51:27.the NHS for a long period of time and we know how that ended. Tony
:51:28. > :51:31.Blair and Gordon Brown poured money into the British economy and then
:51:32. > :51:34.came the crash and British people decided they could not be trusted
:51:35. > :51:38.because they spent too much, their instincts were still borrow and
:51:39. > :51:42.borrow and borrow. You are saying much the same thing. The crash was
:51:43. > :51:48.not caused by Government investment in services in Britain. It was not
:51:49. > :51:52.caused by the number of nurses or teachers we have in Britain, it was
:51:53. > :51:56.caused by deregulating banking system which was investing in
:51:57. > :52:01.sub-prime mortgages in the USA and there was a contagion because of it.
:52:02. > :52:05.Since then, the banking regulation requires them to have similar thick
:52:06. > :52:10.sufficient capital assets to protect against that and there is more
:52:11. > :52:14.regulation on the banking system. It was not government expenditure which
:52:15. > :52:19.caused the crash. For whatever reason, the idea is deeply rooted in
:52:20. > :52:25.British voters that Labour governments borrow and spend too
:52:26. > :52:32.much. Invest to grow. Invest in housing. But it this way, we're
:52:33. > :52:35.spending ?9.5 billion every year on subsidising the private housing
:52:36. > :52:40.market, on the private rented sector through housing benefit payments to
:52:41. > :52:46.tenants who have the right to access those benefits. If those people were
:52:47. > :52:50.in social housing, council housing, the cost would be incontestable
:52:51. > :52:54.compared to ?9.5 billion and we would have that money to invest in
:52:55. > :52:59.building houses which in turn creates jobs all the way down the
:53:00. > :53:03.supply chain. Can I ask you a slightly philosophical question
:53:04. > :53:07.about capitalism? There are two different views of capitalism on the
:53:08. > :53:13.left generally. One is that it is a dynamism, entrepot lairy alyssum
:53:14. > :53:21.creating wealth but also and waste. -- entrepreneurialism. The other
:53:22. > :53:26.view is that capitalism is a view driven by greed and individualism
:53:27. > :53:31.and in the end we want to replace it with a socialist system. Which side
:53:32. > :53:35.are you on? Well, you put it in a very stark way. I think there has to
:53:36. > :53:41.be a mixed economy. I think there is a huge role for the public in
:53:42. > :53:47.running public services. Like the NHS, instead of privatising them. It
:53:48. > :53:51.is important that we have a strong manufacturing base as Scandinavian
:53:52. > :53:54.countries and Germany do. I want to see a system where we produce what
:53:55. > :53:59.we need for people that need it, rather than the greed of those that
:54:00. > :54:03.don't need it. In the old days on Merseyside, there was a lot of talk
:54:04. > :54:14.is out here about monopod lies in the top 100... -- the top 100
:54:15. > :54:18.monopolies. I'm not up for that. I think we have to have public control
:54:19. > :54:21.over key services, health, education, transport. We have to
:54:22. > :54:26.have a government that is prepared to invest in the economy and
:54:27. > :54:29.participate in it, in the way that successful manufacturing economies
:54:30. > :54:32.have a role for the state in developing manufacturing industry.
:54:33. > :54:38.It's not a bad word. You have used the phrase nationalised the NHS,
:54:39. > :54:46.Abilene nationalised NHS. Does that mean that drive at companies are
:54:47. > :54:50.doing, for example, Glik coma operations more faster and cheaply
:54:51. > :54:56.than the NHS can arrive should be banned, or the NHS should stop
:54:57. > :55:02.buying those services? I think the NHS would be better served if its
:55:03. > :55:08.services were in-house. Always? You and I have probably used the NHS, in
:55:09. > :55:12.fact probably every viewer of this programme has used the NHS. When you
:55:13. > :55:18.bring in a barrier between a local hospital and a contracting company
:55:19. > :55:23.to do some services, it often ends up more expensive. We have an NHS
:55:24. > :55:28.dominated by a culture of contracting out services. We only
:55:29. > :55:32.have an NHS because Nye Bevan did a series of important deals to found
:55:33. > :55:36.it, of which the most controversial was allowing British doctors who
:55:37. > :55:39.were against the NHS to carry on doing Private business. There's a
:55:40. > :55:43.proposal at the moment that money they earn from private work should
:55:44. > :55:47.be published. That is controversial. Would you go further and say British
:55:48. > :55:52.doctors working inside the NHS should be moonlighting and doing
:55:53. > :55:57.private work? The vast majority of GPs don't do any private work
:55:58. > :56:01.anyway. In many cases their surgeries are owned by the NHS, the
:56:02. > :56:05.buildings are owned by the NHS and they are contracted to the NHS and
:56:06. > :56:12.indeed in many places they are actually salaried GPs. And I tell
:56:13. > :56:16.you what, salaried GPs tell me they prefer it that way. That has not
:56:17. > :56:20.really answer the question. It's not an absolute on it because I want to
:56:21. > :56:24.see an NHS that provides for all. You have to have discussions with
:56:25. > :56:30.doctors about how they go about doing things. The dedication of the
:56:31. > :56:34.junior doctors shows how desperate they are to save the NHS. A lot of
:56:35. > :56:38.people would agree with you on that and economic ideas but are worried
:56:39. > :56:46.about your ideas on defence. You want to be a minister -- you want to
:56:47. > :56:52.have a minister on defence but also a piece minister. Would you be
:56:53. > :56:53.sending a piece minister to Aleppo? Would they be talking to the
:56:54. > :57:00.Russians? I'm totally engaged with trying to
:57:01. > :57:03.bring about urgently a ceasefire. I recognise this recent ceasefire has
:57:04. > :57:08.collapsed and that is tragic beyond belief. I would having gauged with
:57:09. > :57:10.Geneva talks from the very beginning, engaged with Iran and
:57:11. > :57:16.everybody from the beginning of this. The lessons of Iraq, the
:57:17. > :57:19.lessons of Libya, Chilcot and a report on Libya indicate that we
:57:20. > :57:23.haven't done things as well as we might, there has to be a political
:57:24. > :57:29.engagement. There has to be an engagement which deals with the
:57:30. > :57:32.issues at source, for a political solution. Mostly when I ask you a
:57:33. > :57:37.sentence beginning, do you agree with Tony Blair, I know the answer?
:57:38. > :57:41.But in this case, Tony Blair said this week and that he agrees that
:57:42. > :57:44.the prosecutions and criminal prosecutions against British troops
:57:45. > :57:49.in Iraq and Afghanistan are unfair and have put too much pressure on
:57:50. > :57:52.people who are out there under difficult circumstances and he has
:57:53. > :57:56.agree with David Cameron and Theresa May and others that they should be
:57:57. > :57:59.stopped. I have spoken to a number of soldiers that have served in
:58:00. > :58:03.Afghanistan and Iraq and I recognised the awful conditions they
:58:04. > :58:07.were asked to serve under and the difficulties they had with that. But
:58:08. > :58:11.I do think there has to be a recognition that we've signed up to
:58:12. > :58:16.international law on the behaviour of troops and America go with the
:58:17. > :58:18.same experience, as do other European countries even though they
:58:19. > :58:22.are not signed up to the International crime caught, but so
:58:23. > :58:28.there has to be an investigation. Saying not prosecute I think would
:58:29. > :58:32.be a step too far. Talking about terra terrible things that happen in
:58:33. > :58:38.war, I was discussing with Boris Johnson this attack on a UN aid
:58:39. > :58:42.convoy, 20 innocent people were killed. Was that a war crime? It
:58:43. > :58:45.sounds awfully like it to me. Terrible what happened there because
:58:46. > :58:49.the aid convoy was there because there had been an agreement on it,
:58:50. > :58:52.it was there because we were moving towards a ceasefire which would
:58:53. > :58:56.bring about some relief to those people going through such a terrible
:58:57. > :59:02.situation. It is unthinkable what they did. But there is also the
:59:03. > :59:06.question of playing our part in trying to help the refugees from
:59:07. > :59:10.Syria but not just leaving then in camps but trying to make sure we
:59:11. > :59:15.click get a political settlement and don't leave people stuck in camps
:59:16. > :59:18.for years on end. Do you think the defence budget should be higher or
:59:19. > :59:21.lower than it is at the moment? I don't think it should be any higher,
:59:22. > :59:28.I think it should be efficiently used but I don't think it should be
:59:29. > :59:35.used when necessary that' it should be used when necessary. Defence
:59:36. > :59:42.establishment can be quite helpful in that sort of area, the bowler
:59:43. > :59:48.virus and others. Looking ahead, you said that you think the defence
:59:49. > :59:52.budget should be lower, in the past. A lot of military people in this
:59:53. > :59:56.country say we are simply not well prepared for any kind of future
:59:57. > :00:01.threats in Russia or anywhere else and we need to spend more on
:00:02. > :00:04.conventional forces like tanks and all the rest of it. I think the
:00:05. > :00:09.issues of cyber security and terrorism and the issues that go
:00:10. > :00:12.with that and random attacks, that is not necessarily the same thing as
:00:13. > :00:16.having huge land-based defence forces. You have to look at it in
:00:17. > :00:22.the terms of the political objectives you face or deal with all
:00:23. > :00:25.around the world to try to bring about political solutions to what
:00:26. > :00:29.looked like intractable problems. We've been through a period of
:00:30. > :00:33.putting a lot of money and a lot of troops in a very dangerous place and
:00:34. > :00:42.we have lost a lot of troops as a result of that. Do you support the
:00:43. > :00:46.increasing size of MI6 at the moment? I don't think that's
:00:47. > :00:51.necessarily particular necessary. I Amonde clear why they want to be so
:00:52. > :00:54.much bigger. One final tax and spending question, you've talked
:00:55. > :01:00.about paying to get rid of tuition fees by raising corporation tax.
:01:01. > :01:08.Corporation tax is amongst the lowest of the OECD countries. Much
:01:09. > :01:14.less than the US. We should go up to the 20% area it was at before. It is
:01:15. > :01:22.20% now. Bring it down. OK. We have to recognise that we are well behind
:01:23. > :01:28.the curve of most European countries on the way we treat our students in
:01:29. > :01:32.higher and further education. The fact we have students in massive
:01:33. > :01:38.debt. And the fact of the first time this year in many years the number
:01:39. > :01:43.of working class students going to university is decreasing. We are
:01:44. > :01:46.turning it into the direction of elite rather than the direction of
:01:47. > :01:51.everybody. It is sad, wrong, and wasteful. We remember the overnight
:01:52. > :01:56.phone calls with Hilary Benn. Would you like to see him back in your
:01:57. > :01:57.Shadow Cabinet? He wants to become the chair of the select committee on
:01:58. > :02:00.Brexit. Thanks for talking to us. Now for a look at what's coming up
:02:01. > :02:03.after this programme. Should British troops be immune
:02:04. > :02:07.from prosecution for serious Burkas on the beat -
:02:08. > :02:13.should Muslim women police officers be allowed to wear
:02:14. > :02:15.traditional dress? Double Olympic gold winner
:02:16. > :02:17.Nicola Adams on why she intends And Deacon Blue
:02:18. > :02:33.perform in the studio. There have been some problems over
:02:34. > :02:41.our pictures, the live birds jumping up and down on wires or something.
:02:42. > :02:43.Anyway, apologies for that. -- Liverbirds.
:02:44. > :02:47.You can catch up with unfolding events here in Liverpool by joining
:02:48. > :02:49.Andrew Neil on the Sunday Politics at 11.
:02:50. > :02:51.Join us next week at the Conservative conference
:02:52. > :02:55.in Birmingham when my guests will include the Prime Minister,