:00:09. > :00:17.In a week when official forecasts tells us of a dreadful decade
:00:18. > :00:20.for ordinary families but we've also got real news
:00:21. > :00:25.ahead since the Brexit vote, what's ahead of us has never seemed
:00:26. > :00:28.We will try, again, to make it clearer for you.
:00:29. > :00:46.But, this time we're gonna try our best to fail better.
:00:47. > :00:50.One of the key figures who persuaded Britain to vote to leave the EU
:00:51. > :00:53.and who declared we'd had enough of experts, Michael Gove,
:00:54. > :01:04.Do they regard Brexit as a glorious opportunity or an imminent disaster.
:01:05. > :01:10.Emily Thornberry, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, is here.
:01:11. > :01:14.One of the missing elements in the Autumn Statement
:01:15. > :01:16.was a big boost for the NHS, former Health Secretary
:01:17. > :01:23.And, Hollywood star, Ed Harris - from London's West End
:01:24. > :01:40.You never understand the game is rigged. The house always wins.
:01:41. > :01:42.Plus we have some great live music this morning from the one
:01:43. > :02:06.Reviewing the morning's news, including reaction to the death
:02:07. > :02:08.of Fidel Castro, broadcaster and financial columnist Paul Mason,
:02:09. > :02:10.the Financial Times' Miranda Green and, from the right,
:02:11. > :02:14.All that coming up soon. First, the news with Rachel Burden.
:02:15. > :02:18.Cuba has begun nine days of mourning following the death of the former
:02:19. > :02:22.Public events have been cancelled and mass memorials are taking
:02:23. > :02:27.The Communist leader, who died, aged 90, on Friday,
:02:28. > :02:29.governed Cuba for more than half a century.
:02:30. > :02:32.The UK's equalities watchdog has expressed concern about "racist,
:02:33. > :02:34.anti-semitic and homophobic attacks" since the EU referendum in June.
:02:35. > :02:37.The Equality and Human Rights Commission has written
:02:38. > :02:40.to the leaders of all the UK's political parties urging them
:02:41. > :02:42.to tone down their rhetoric to help heal divisions in the country
:02:43. > :02:47.Francois Fillon and Alain Juppe, go head-to-head today
:02:48. > :02:49.in a runoff vote for France's centre-right
:02:50. > :02:54.The two former Prime Ministers took part in a televised
:02:55. > :03:00.The winner of today's vote could end up facing the far-right
:03:01. > :03:04.National Front leader Marine Le Pen in the general election next spring.
:03:05. > :03:07.Syrian State media says government forces have re-taken the largest
:03:08. > :03:10.rebel-controlled district in eastern Aleppo.
:03:11. > :03:18.It says troops are now clearing the district of mines and bombs.
:03:19. > :03:21.More than 250,000 people are trapped in eastern
:03:22. > :03:24.Aleppo, which has come under heavy bombardment since government forces
:03:25. > :03:26.resumed their offensive earlier this month.
:03:27. > :03:28.That's all from me, for now. Back to you, Andrew.
:03:29. > :03:39.I can't remember a death which has divided the press and divided the
:03:40. > :03:44.commentators quite like that of Fidel Castro. The Sunday Telegraph,
:03:45. > :03:48.they don't have the main picture of Castro himself but the Cuban exiles
:03:49. > :03:52.in America celebrating his death, and the story about Theresa May and
:03:53. > :04:00.business pay crackdown. The Sunday Times, Fidel Castro, "Scourge of the
:04:01. > :04:03.West dies at 90". World divides over revolutionary icon who became a
:04:04. > :04:08.murderous tyrant. I suspect we will divide ourselves across the sofa in
:04:09. > :04:11.a moment on that. We have a story on Theresa May who says the Brexit
:04:12. > :04:17.challenge keeps her awake at night. I don't know if that makes you feel
:04:18. > :04:22.better or worse. And The Observer, Fidel Castro, straightforward
:04:23. > :04:25.picture with his beard staring into the distance. Another interesting
:04:26. > :04:30.story, saying that care for the elderly in this country is close to
:04:31. > :04:33.collapse and talking about the need for more money to save the NHS
:04:34. > :04:38.because of the beds being used by elderly people. We will talk about
:04:39. > :04:48.that later. On a different note in the Mail on Sunday, Ted Heath's
:04:49. > :04:54.accuser is a Satanic sex fantasist. The Sunday express's story, Nigel
:04:55. > :04:58.Farage fears for his life after the Brexit and Trump vote and can't go
:04:59. > :05:04.out without police protection. A great deal to talk about. All, you
:05:05. > :05:09.have chosen the Sun newspaper and Castro.
:05:10. > :05:12.Baughman in heaven. Castro is divisive but the moment I realised
:05:13. > :05:16.he had died yesterday morning my mind went to the people of Cuba who
:05:17. > :05:24.I think are slightly missing from the press coverage today. -- our man
:05:25. > :05:28.in heaven. The rebellion carried out in 1959 throwing out a US backed
:05:29. > :05:32.dictator. The last time I was there a guide to me to the heart of the
:05:33. > :05:38.forest, he was a critic of Castro, he said, don't think we like this,
:05:39. > :05:43.the suppression of freedom of speech, but those are the slave pens
:05:44. > :05:45.the Spanish had and these are the slave driving techniques the
:05:46. > :05:49.Americans imposed on us. Do not think because we dislike the
:05:50. > :05:54.autocracy and the suppression of freedom that we will ever accept the
:05:55. > :05:58.rule of America back into our country.
:05:59. > :06:03.Your view is the Cubans were caught between a rock, the Americans and
:06:04. > :06:14.the hard place Castro, and... Behar hapless, the USSR, he was a left
:06:15. > :06:17.nationalist. -- the hard place. He was pushed into the arms of the
:06:18. > :06:21.Soviet Union and begins to act like a classic Eastern European Soviet
:06:22. > :06:28.tyrant. Call him what you will but the Cuban people, this is the
:06:29. > :06:34.tragedy in the 20th century, were still able to achieve economically
:06:35. > :06:38.so much and politically in Africa to defeat help defeat apartheid. This
:06:39. > :06:43.is one of Castro's legacies. Let's not say it is Castro's Lacey, it is
:06:44. > :06:47.the Cuban people's legacy. Jeremy Corbyn says he was a great fighter
:06:48. > :06:52.for social justice. Jeremy Corbyn speaks for me.
:06:53. > :06:56.Miranda, another side of him is the beard, the cigar, the image and the
:06:57. > :07:01.iconic Castro thing and some second-rate writer burbling on in
:07:02. > :07:04.the Sunday Times about that. Some man called Andrew Marr, I don't know
:07:05. > :07:09.who he is, but he makes a few good points. It is interesting because
:07:10. > :07:14.the great age of the Cuban revolution was also the great age of
:07:15. > :07:18.photography and photographic reportage. This young Cuban
:07:19. > :07:23.photographer who drapes the iconic images of Che Guevara and then
:07:24. > :07:28.Castro onto badges and T-shirts all around the world. Bought in
:07:29. > :07:35.Streatham high Street in the 80s by all of us. Essentially as you have
:07:36. > :07:38.seen in the Sunday Times today these wonderful black and white
:07:39. > :07:42.photographs from the 50s and 60s tell the story of a whole era and
:07:43. > :07:46.it's the glamour of the revolutionaries. Paul has alluded to
:07:47. > :07:50.the terrible human rights violations of the Cuban revolution and the
:07:51. > :07:54.Castro era, which are incredibly serious and horrendously glossed
:07:55. > :07:59.over by the left today in their celebrations of Castro's life. You
:08:00. > :08:03.can see why it was so appealing because the word icon is usually
:08:04. > :08:09.banned in journalism because it is horribly overused but they created
:08:10. > :08:11.icons, created Castro and Che Guevara alongside him as these
:08:12. > :08:18.exciting figures liberating a nation. Now we have the age of
:08:19. > :08:24.government by television, we have Trump is a new political leader, a
:08:25. > :08:28.reality TV leader, but this was the great age of photography and it was
:08:29. > :08:31.extremely easy if you have the right charisma, to build a nation around
:08:32. > :08:36.you and build that loyalty. Repression was terrible under
:08:37. > :08:39.Castro. Ferocious, absolutely. Paul says Jeremy Corbyn speaks for him
:08:40. > :08:44.when he says Castro was a champion of social justice. Does he speak for
:08:45. > :08:48.you? He was a dictator who imprisoned and killed a whole bunch
:08:49. > :08:53.of people. While people in the West were being taken away by the icon of
:08:54. > :08:58.Castro, people in Cuba were suffering. The Sunday Telegraph's
:08:59. > :09:04.picture of these Cubans in America who are celebrating. They have a
:09:05. > :09:08.freedom to do that in the states. It would be a brave Cuban who reacted
:09:09. > :09:13.that way. You have to ask why did tens of thousands of Cubans make the
:09:14. > :09:17.90 mile journey in the sea to America if Cuba was such a great
:09:18. > :09:20.place. They tell you here, fleeing oppression, persecution of their
:09:21. > :09:23.families. That is why it is dangerous for any leader, not so
:09:24. > :09:27.much Jeremy Corbyn because people don't expect him to be sensible in
:09:28. > :09:31.such situations, but other world leaders, normally you would say it
:09:32. > :09:35.is a shame, God rest his soul but because it was a dictator people
:09:36. > :09:38.have to caveat that. The New York Times has a good story about Justin
:09:39. > :09:42.Trudeau, the Canadian Prime Minister, who didn't make that
:09:43. > :09:50.caveat. He said Castro was a revolutionary and a wonderful man
:09:51. > :09:57.and a orator. Because he didn't put the caveat he has got criticism. The
:09:58. > :09:59.New York Times quotes Ted Cruz, Paul is laughing, but he is a
:10:00. > :10:11.Cuban-American who may have some thoughts on this, accusing him of
:10:12. > :10:14.slobbering. I wrote a member when George Bush was told of the death of
:10:15. > :10:19.Arafat, he said God rest his soul. That is normally what you think.
:10:20. > :10:23.When a dictator dies who has done so many atrocities you must factor that
:10:24. > :10:30.in. When a dictator died in Saudi Arabia who ran the flag of
:10:31. > :10:33.Buckingham Palace last year. What about the comparison of Pinochet
:10:34. > :10:39.when the Wright said he did some bad things but brought in free-market
:10:40. > :10:46.economics? Initiate had people raped by dogs. The key economists of the
:10:47. > :10:51.West Milton Freeman and Hayek ran to congratulate him while this was
:10:52. > :10:55.going on. The left, my part of the left, have ever ceased to criticise
:10:56. > :10:59.the human rights violations back Castro impose on Cuba. He gave
:11:00. > :11:07.people a horrible time in Cuba. They did. Re-education camps for
:11:08. > :11:11.homosexuals. Castro himself signed the order. Summary executions for
:11:12. > :11:16.opponents. Banning trade unions. It is the qualification of the butt,
:11:17. > :11:21.the however. We are talking about the 20th century, the enemy he was
:11:22. > :11:28.facing killed 1 million civilians in Vietnam. Castro didn't do that.
:11:29. > :11:33.Pinochet imposed a dictatorship to suppress the economic rights of his
:11:34. > :11:36.people, Castro raised them. I don't think that excuses Castro's
:11:37. > :11:42.anti-democratic tie radical behaviour, but one thing that he did
:11:43. > :11:46.also do is spread the revolution. He's read it to Africa. In 1988 the
:11:47. > :11:52.South African defence Force ran into the Cuban army and lost -- spread it
:11:53. > :12:00.to Africa. That speeded before of apartheid and we have two applaud
:12:01. > :12:04.that. I pride myself on smooth transitions from one story to
:12:05. > :12:08.another. I don't have one except we talked about economists and we will
:12:09. > :12:12.talk about another one now. The biggest political story this morning
:12:13. > :12:15.as Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of England, who has a plan for
:12:16. > :12:20.Brexit even if nobody else does and he wants a transition that could go
:12:21. > :12:24.on for four years. The background to the stories we have the Autumn
:12:25. > :12:28.Statement last week which had some rather gloomy figures on the state
:12:29. > :12:33.of the public finances. We have also had good news in terms of business
:12:34. > :12:37.investment this year. This week. This story is Mark Carney, the
:12:38. > :12:41.governor of the Bank of England, who has been under serious fire from the
:12:42. > :12:46.Brexit side of the argument, the pro-leave side, the apparently has a
:12:47. > :12:51.plan for what is called a Brexit buffer, the idea that Theresa May
:12:52. > :12:53.alluded to this week as well, that you have some sort of transition
:12:54. > :12:57.arrangement to prevent the British economy falling off a cliff edge
:12:58. > :13:01.when Brexit happens at the end of the Article 50 process. Is a very
:13:02. > :13:05.interesting story because really where the news will go is how to get
:13:06. > :13:08.ourselves out of this and what is the plan? Since there is a deafening
:13:09. > :13:14.silence from No 10 about what the plan might be nature abhors a vacuum
:13:15. > :13:19.and so does news and here comes Mark Carney with apparently some sort of
:13:20. > :13:22.plan. The Sunday Times Magazine has interviewed Theresa May and it's an
:13:23. > :13:26.interesting interview but it is fair to say they don't have a detailed
:13:27. > :13:29.account of what will happen if Brexit occurs. They haven't and
:13:30. > :13:33.nobody has because nobody knows. Britain goes into the negotiations
:13:34. > :13:37.wanting pretty much all of the good bits of the EU but none of the bad
:13:38. > :13:41.bits. The worst-case scenario is the WTO rules but it will be somewhere
:13:42. > :13:45.in between. We don't know what we will be given by the rest of the EU.
:13:46. > :13:49.Nobody debating in Parliament can find out. That is why we have this
:13:50. > :13:52.unsatisfactory situation where everybody wants to know what will
:13:53. > :13:56.come and we won't know until the two years of negotiations have been
:13:57. > :14:01.done. Theresa May said in the interview this is what keeps her
:14:02. > :14:04.awake at night. This is the concern about how government, Brexit is
:14:05. > :14:11.eclipsing everything else. That she should be kept awake by. The NHS? A
:14:12. > :14:15.whole bunch of other things, but the only story we hear is Brexit and
:14:16. > :14:18.nothing seems to be happening. Interestingly, Mark Carney just won
:14:19. > :14:23.this power struggle with Theresa May. She had to compromise with him.
:14:24. > :14:28.He is in a strong position so he is using that strong position to say he
:14:29. > :14:31.will start freelancing to negotiate himself. And an elected bureaucrat
:14:32. > :14:36.is running our policy on Brexit. That's the problem of having the
:14:37. > :14:40.political vacuum -- unelected. We also have the problem of the vacuum
:14:41. > :14:44.of what is happening in Europe. We discussed that later. Europe might
:14:45. > :14:48.not be united enough to impose the hard Brexit on us. It looks like
:14:49. > :14:52.that is what they want to do. I think we should go for the softest
:14:53. > :14:57.possible and least disruptive form of this rupture that we can. But
:14:58. > :15:02.Carney's response shows it may not be possible. He talks about
:15:03. > :15:05.protecting the City of London and financial services which is
:15:06. > :15:09.important, not least for the tax take. We are running out of time but
:15:10. > :15:14.can we do Europe quickly? Looking at France, and above all Italy all over
:15:15. > :15:17.the papers today were it looks like next Sunday the Italian Prime
:15:18. > :15:21.Minister might actually lose his referendum and have to go and that
:15:22. > :15:26.would possibly bring in the northern region, or the five Star Movement,
:15:27. > :15:30.the radicals, threatening Italy's membership of the euro and
:15:31. > :15:33.triggering the next crisis. This is way bigger than Brexit bugs if it
:15:34. > :15:39.happens there could be a run on the Italian banks and the immediate
:15:40. > :15:46.economic implications. As Paul will tell us... I'm stealing your paper,
:15:47. > :15:51.sorry. The Daily Mail has a picture of the Mayor of Rome on it. She has
:15:52. > :15:56.been a disaster, apparently. I think she has been excellent.
:15:57. > :15:59.Interestingly she is on the left of the five Star Movement and the
:16:00. > :16:03.interesting thing is it is a proxy vote, this thing next weekend, about
:16:04. > :16:06.Europe. But it will not lead to any results about Europe unless the
:16:07. > :16:12.government falls. The interesting thing is the left will vote no to
:16:13. > :16:13.the referendum in a way I didn't think you'd get its act together to
:16:14. > :16:24.do on Brexit. This is really significant because
:16:25. > :16:28.although the referendum is about whether the Senate has fewer powers,
:16:29. > :16:32.what it really means is this could be the next domino falling in
:16:33. > :16:38.European politics, which could lead to a run on the Italian banks,
:16:39. > :16:43.another huge eurozone crisis at a moment of political crisis and it
:16:44. > :16:47.could be really serious. And of course in Austria with a neo-Nazi
:16:48. > :16:51.possibly going to be elected as president, then France, so a whole
:16:52. > :16:55.series of changes. I want to finish off with the social care story on
:16:56. > :17:01.the front page of the observer because that's the big story we will
:17:02. > :17:06.talk about in a second. This is a major move by lots of senior people
:17:07. > :17:12.in the NHS and around the NHS to try to persuade the Government to think
:17:13. > :17:19.again about social care. Councillors are in trouble. Brexit has messed up
:17:20. > :17:25.the public finances, the Government did not give anything to the NHS's
:17:26. > :17:29.social care. We are seeing small care providers hand back the
:17:30. > :17:33.contract and we are hearing this more and more so your elderly
:17:34. > :17:37.grandparents is now being looked after by companies that cannot
:17:38. > :17:42.function business-wise. Closing down or handing back the contracts. Do
:17:43. > :17:46.you think Philip Hammond made a mistake by not saying much more
:17:47. > :17:50.about this in the Autumn Statement? Yes, it turns out he has a huge pot
:17:51. > :17:55.of money we didn't know he had and he wants to spend it on
:17:56. > :17:59.infrastructure. Roads are the new hospitals. In doing so he upset a
:18:00. > :18:04.lot of people who had bought if there was any spare money they would
:18:05. > :18:06.like some of it. It is a good thing to end on because we are going to
:18:07. > :18:08.carry on talking about the NHS. You may have noticed
:18:09. > :18:10.Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt indicating on this programme
:18:11. > :18:12.he wanted more money. You may have noticed
:18:13. > :18:15.the Chancellor Philip Hammond in the Autumn Statement
:18:16. > :18:17.conspicuously declining to offer it. Stephen Dorrell was a Tory Health
:18:18. > :18:21.Secretary and is Chairman of the NHS Confederation and he
:18:22. > :18:29.joins me from Worcester. Were you surprised, were you
:18:30. > :18:34.disappointed, not to hear more or anything from Philip Hammond in the
:18:35. > :18:38.Autumn Statement about the NHS? I was very disappointed not to hear in
:18:39. > :18:44.particular about social care. There is an easy slogan headline here
:18:45. > :18:49.saying what we should be focused on is NHS funding, but actually Simon
:18:50. > :18:53.Stevens, the chief executive of NHS England, said that if there was some
:18:54. > :18:57.spare money it needed to go into social care in order to create a
:18:58. > :19:03.more efficient health and social care system, and more balanced
:19:04. > :19:07.system. So in an Autumn Statement where Philip Hammond was talking
:19:08. > :19:12.about the importance of productivity, I can think of no
:19:13. > :19:17.instance across public or private sector where a small investment by
:19:18. > :19:21.the Government could have produced a bigger improvement in productivity
:19:22. > :19:26.through efficient use of the whole of the health and social care
:19:27. > :19:30.system. And a small investment in social care could have delivered
:19:31. > :19:35.significant improvements in the quality and efficiency of the whole
:19:36. > :19:40.health and social care system. Was it a mistake not to offer something?
:19:41. > :19:45.And what happens to the social care system if nothing is done? The
:19:46. > :19:51.answer is that it was a mistake, in my view, not to make an investment
:19:52. > :19:58.in social care. The result is to put it in very simple terms that needs
:19:59. > :20:05.that should be met by supporting people in their own homes or
:20:06. > :20:14.providing residential care end up in NHS hospitals. When we hear stories
:20:15. > :20:18.of full emergency wards, full A departments, that is in part at
:20:19. > :20:23.least the result of failing to meet the demands through the social care
:20:24. > :20:26.system because it is inadequately funded. I don't know if you were
:20:27. > :20:31.able to hear Paul Mason suggesting this would be a crisis that would
:20:32. > :20:36.dominate the news for the next nine months or so, but I suppose the
:20:37. > :20:41.question is, given that money is tight, can the Government actually
:20:42. > :20:46.afford to do much about this? All I'm doing is picking up Philip
:20:47. > :20:58.Hammond's own rationale for investing in a productivity fund. If
:20:59. > :21:03.you invest in social care, you are improving the productivity of the
:21:04. > :21:07.whole health and social care system and helping people who otherwise
:21:08. > :21:12.find their family budgets under incredible strain and personal worry
:21:13. > :21:16.because of failures in social care. Should Philip Hammond change tack
:21:17. > :21:22.and come back to the House of Commons and offer some more money?
:21:23. > :21:25.And secondly, as a former Health Secretary yourself, don't you think
:21:26. > :21:33.you are being disloyal by attacking him publicly? I think one of the key
:21:34. > :21:38.attributes of being involved in any form of public life, and now as
:21:39. > :21:42.chair of the NHS Confederation, is a willingness to speak truth to power
:21:43. > :21:47.and there's no good going into this winter saying it will be all right,
:21:48. > :21:50.when we already have lengthening queues in A departments, we
:21:51. > :21:56.already have problems with hospitals unable to discharge people because
:21:57. > :22:01.of inadequate provision of social care. The easy headline is to say
:22:02. > :22:06.spend more money on the NHS. That's not what we are saying, we are
:22:07. > :22:10.saying proper investment to the part of the system that isn't working
:22:11. > :22:14.will actually deliver better value as well as better care. So should
:22:15. > :22:20.Philip Hammond come back to the House of Commons and do that? My
:22:21. > :22:25.answer is twofold to that, firstly yes he should, and secondly, is also
:22:26. > :22:30.in the Autumn Statement, this is one of the less noticed dates, said we
:22:31. > :22:33.need to start thinking about the structure of public expenditure
:22:34. > :22:37.going into the next parliament because there will be some
:22:38. > :22:43.commitments that need to be reviewed at that time. It is precisely for
:22:44. > :22:47.that reason that we from the Confederation on a cross-party basis
:22:48. > :22:51.with Alan Milburn, one of my labour successors as Health Secretary, and
:22:52. > :22:55.also Norman Lamb, the health minister in the coalition from the
:22:56. > :22:59.Lib Dems, have argued we need to look on a more long-term basis at
:23:00. > :23:05.these funding questions so we don't get into this kind of short-term
:23:06. > :23:08.impending crisis. Stephen Dorrell, thanks for joining us this morning.
:23:09. > :23:11.And so to the weather, It's Baltic, it's icy,
:23:12. > :23:13.all across the country brass monkeys are feeling a little uneasy.
:23:14. > :23:25.It is that time of the year, and we have some really cold nights and
:23:26. > :23:28.mornings in the forecast. Today it is an improving story with bright
:23:29. > :23:32.and sunny spells drifting down from the north on a northerly breeze, so
:23:33. > :23:36.it will be on the chilly side with that northerly breeze. The brighter
:23:37. > :23:40.weather is filtering south but this week whether fund may get stuck
:23:41. > :23:46.across the far south-west keeping its grey hair and grey in Northern
:23:47. > :23:49.Ireland too. That whether fund eventually clears away from the
:23:50. > :23:54.south-western corner, and we will see that blue tinge across Scotland
:23:55. > :23:59.so it will turn quite cold, around about freezing in Glasgow. Elsewhere
:24:00. > :24:03.it is cold, rural spots go a few degrees lower than that. Chilly
:24:04. > :24:07.start a Monday morning but with clear skies there will be a lot of
:24:08. > :24:12.sunshine through the day on Monday. Some patchy cloud here and there but
:24:13. > :24:16.it won't amounted to much. We are stuck in single figures pretty much
:24:17. > :24:19.across the board, then it is Monday night into Tuesday when temperatures
:24:20. > :24:26.really plummet away, particularly across England and Wales. The blue
:24:27. > :24:30.tinge becomes quite widespread, some places go down to minus five. A very
:24:31. > :24:34.cold starter Tuesday and temperatures will' is through
:24:35. > :24:36.Tuesday afternoon, but at least there will be some dry and bright
:24:37. > :24:43.weather once the fog clears away. Emily Thornberry is Jeremy Corbyn's
:24:44. > :24:45.neighbour in Islington and has become a key supporter
:24:46. > :24:47.of the Labour leader. He's appointed her Shadow Foreign
:24:48. > :24:50.Secretary at a time when the party's policy on Europe and the world has
:24:51. > :24:58.never been more important. There seems to be some doubt in
:24:59. > :25:06.people's minds even now about Labour's reel up to -- real attitude
:25:07. > :25:10.to Brexit. Do you think we should be a member of the single market after
:25:11. > :25:17.Brexit? We need to have the widest access possible to the single market
:25:18. > :25:21.after. Do you accept that that means we could not have control over
:25:22. > :25:24.immigration? That is subject to negotiation and we need to be
:25:25. > :25:28.reasonable about it and think carefully about what the trade
:25:29. > :25:32.offers. Our priority is the economy and we need to make sure that
:25:33. > :25:37.whatever decisions are made, we don't make ourselves poorer or
:25:38. > :25:41.takeaway anybody's jobs. You say there should be a negotiation but
:25:42. > :25:45.for a lot of people there seems to be a gap between being inside the
:25:46. > :25:56.single market and accepting free movement of people, and being
:25:57. > :25:59.outside. Diane Abbott has said you cannot have access to the single
:26:00. > :26:01.market or be part of it without freedom of movement. She goes on, it
:26:02. > :26:04.is time people started acknowledging that. Those who are arguing for the
:26:05. > :26:07.least harmful Brexit have to be clear to people that there is no
:26:08. > :26:14.deal to be done on freedom of movement and put in peril our
:26:15. > :26:21.economic interest as a country. Do you agree with that? Yes, I agree
:26:22. > :26:25.with a lot of that. In the end, if we are going to be part of the
:26:26. > :26:32.single market, we are going to have to concede control over freedom of
:26:33. > :26:34.movement. I think David Cameron Mr fantastic opportunity to look at
:26:35. > :26:39.reforming one of the pillars of the European Union before the general
:26:40. > :26:43.election, before we had a referendum. He went off and was
:26:44. > :26:49.going to fix the European Union, and yet the Europeans saw he wasn't
:26:50. > :26:52.acting on behalf of the whole of Britain and he got nothing. That was
:26:53. > :26:56.a golden opportunity that was wasted. We have common cause with
:26:57. > :26:59.others across Europe in terms of exactly what freedom of movement of
:27:00. > :27:03.workers means, and more work could be done if it was done in an
:27:04. > :27:06.atmosphere of good faith but quite frankly the way Boris Johnson is
:27:07. > :27:10.behaving at the moment, he is undermining any good faith they
:27:11. > :27:15.could possibly be with European friends and neighbours. I'm still
:27:16. > :27:19.confused, the kind of access you want the single market comes at a
:27:20. > :27:25.price of conceding free movement of people, do you accept that? I think
:27:26. > :27:29.what we need to do is to look at what freedom of movement of workers
:27:30. > :27:33.means and how it is defined and how it is applied, and I think there is
:27:34. > :27:38.quite a lot of room for manoeuvre. David Cameron try to do it but was
:27:39. > :27:45.simply not in the right place... Give an example of where we could
:27:46. > :27:50.get to. We can look at what is the definition of a worker, how long you
:27:51. > :27:55.can be in the country without work... People would still be able
:27:56. > :27:58.to come here? Yes, then there is the question of what areas of the
:27:59. > :28:02.country they might be able to find work, there are whole range of
:28:03. > :28:08.options available and subject to negotiation but we are so far from
:28:09. > :28:15.that. I'm trying to work out where labour would like to be post-Brexit.
:28:16. > :28:22.So you are going to vote for Article 50 to be triggered, then after that
:28:23. > :28:26.you are wanting to get maximum access to European markets, which
:28:27. > :28:31.might mean large numbers of workers coming here in exchange for access
:28:32. > :28:34.to those markets, is that right? The first priority of any government
:28:35. > :28:38.should be the safety and security of its people, the second priority
:28:39. > :28:40.should be the economy because if it does badly there are people who are
:28:41. > :28:47.only just managing who will suffer and we have to bear that in mind
:28:48. > :28:51.when making decisions about the future of the country. How that
:28:52. > :28:56.works out the subject to negotiation and at this stage it seems to us
:28:57. > :29:01.that the Government should be confident enough to be able to come
:29:02. > :29:05.to us and say these are the main principles on which we will be
:29:06. > :29:10.negotiating. You sound as vague as they do, we want our cake and eat
:29:11. > :29:14.it, access to the single market and some kind of control over
:29:15. > :29:20.immigration. It is about time we stopped talking about having cake
:29:21. > :29:24.and eating our cake. We have to look at the options and we have to know
:29:25. > :29:27.that it is a trade-off. We need to be able to have a proper debate
:29:28. > :29:31.within the British public as to what the options are. We need a long-term
:29:32. > :29:35.relationship with Europe and to be honest about what that means. Do I
:29:36. > :29:40.think that too many people at the moment come into this country? Yes,
:29:41. > :29:46.I think they do because we have a skills shortage, we are not training
:29:47. > :29:50.enough people in this country. So less immigration under a Labour
:29:51. > :29:54.government? We need to address the skills gap, and if we do that we
:29:55. > :29:58.won't have the same need for more people coming in. Do we have
:29:59. > :30:03.employers taking advantage of getting employees from other
:30:04. > :30:08.countries and undercutting wages? Yes, and we need to be able to
:30:09. > :30:11.control that as well. If employers were finally training some of our
:30:12. > :30:18.youngsters so they did have the skills... I get it. Can I ask you
:30:19. > :30:23.about something else that has come up this week which is that Tony
:30:24. > :30:27.Blair and John Major have said that if things are economically as bad as
:30:28. > :30:35.some are suggesting, there should be a second referendum, do you agree
:30:36. > :30:39.with that? At the moment we cannot even have a debate as to how it is
:30:40. > :30:42.we are going to leave the European Union because the Government claim
:30:43. > :30:46.they are keeping their cards close to their chests but we know they
:30:47. > :30:51.don't even have any card or don't know what game they are playing. It
:30:52. > :30:55.is time they told us what a continuing relationship is likely to
:30:56. > :31:00.be so that we can debate it and Theresa May can go to Europe and say
:31:01. > :31:05.I'm representing the whole of Britain. They need to hack on behalf
:31:06. > :31:11.of 100% and not the extreme 5% of the 52%. If you don't like what they
:31:12. > :31:15.say when they finally tell us, what then happens? Can you stop them in
:31:16. > :31:20.Parliament in some way? Should there be a second referendum?
:31:21. > :31:27.This must be taken step-by-step but they will not take the first step
:31:28. > :31:29.which is they have had five months now, five months! David Cameron
:31:30. > :31:33.specifically told the civil service not to look at plan B and they have
:31:34. > :31:37.now had five months to work out what their plan will be and they come
:31:38. > :31:40.with nothing, that's the starting point, let's start with what the
:31:41. > :31:45.government wants to negotiate and then we can have a reaction from the
:31:46. > :31:49.public and a proper debate and decide how to proceed. Until they
:31:50. > :31:54.lay down their basic negotiating position we cannot begin this
:31:55. > :31:57.debate. Your leader and your friend Jeremy Corbyn said of Fidel Castro
:31:58. > :32:01.that he was a great fighter for social justice and a huge historical
:32:02. > :32:06.figure. A lot of people thought he failed to address the dark side of
:32:07. > :32:10.the Castro regime, all of those killings, the abuse of gay people
:32:11. > :32:15.and torture and so on, what is your view? I think Castro was a hugely
:32:16. > :32:19.divisive figure and it is quite difficult to get beyond human rights
:32:20. > :32:23.abuses. My own experience, I went to Cuba in the early 1990s when there
:32:24. > :32:28.was a great economic difficulty in that country and I found a country
:32:29. > :32:32.that was egalitarian and with a fantastic health service. I had my
:32:33. > :32:40.baby with me and we had to go to see the doctor. It came at a heck of a
:32:41. > :32:42.price. In my view it was a brave island that stood against a regime
:32:43. > :32:46.that for 50 years would not trade with it and would not let other
:32:47. > :32:49.countries trade with its too. And not only did they stand firm and
:32:50. > :32:55.strong they also exported their values across South America and
:32:56. > :33:01.Africa producing doctors and nurses and teachers. There were camps and
:33:02. > :33:04.torture and it came at a huge price. If it were Pinochet people on the
:33:05. > :33:07.left would say he was a monster and he was terrible that should be got
:33:08. > :33:11.rid of but because he wore a red star on his fatigues he seemed quite
:33:12. > :33:15.gentle. If you look at the right wing press supporting Pinochet they
:33:16. > :33:19.are the ones who come out and accuse Castro of all of the things they do.
:33:20. > :33:23.Let me put this to you. How can it be that a little island like Cuba
:33:24. > :33:27.can have not only sufficient doctors and nurses to be able to look after
:33:28. > :33:31.the people of Cuba but they can also explore them across South America
:33:32. > :33:35.and into Africa to give more doctors, to fight the bowler crisis
:33:36. > :33:42.than the Americans and that tiny country can do that and we can't? --
:33:43. > :33:45.the Ebola crisis. Set that alongside machine-gunning people in boats
:33:46. > :33:51.including children when they are trying to leave the country. It is
:33:52. > :33:55.hard to make an equivalent side, the dark side and bright side. There is
:33:56. > :33:59.a bright side but there is a dark side. I acknowledge that but all I
:34:00. > :34:04.say is from my experience, visiting a country at the time that didn't
:34:05. > :34:08.have enough petrol to drive the cars, they were going around on
:34:09. > :34:12.bicycles on the May Day parade. But nonetheless they still have an
:34:13. > :34:16.excellent health and education service notwithstanding. It was an
:34:17. > :34:21.enormous achievement for a little Caribbean island. You heard Stephen
:34:22. > :34:25.Dorrell talking about the crisis in social care. Do you agree with him
:34:26. > :34:28.and Paul Mason that we will see a crisis that will run out through the
:34:29. > :34:32.rest of this year and the Chancellor should be backed by the House of
:34:33. > :34:35.Commons putting more money into social care? Absolutely, I was in
:34:36. > :34:40.Warwickshire yesterday and people are desperately worried about what
:34:41. > :34:43.will happen with their elderly relatives, will they be got up at
:34:44. > :34:47.breakfast time or a lunchtime? What will happen with people going into
:34:48. > :34:52.hospital in crisis and not being able to come out again? Every pound
:34:53. > :34:57.we spend on social care we save two, three, four, five in the health
:34:58. > :34:59.service. We will talk later but for now, thank you, Emily Thornberry.
:35:00. > :35:01.The US presidential race certainly highlighted many divisions
:35:02. > :35:03.and tensions in the country, not least in those blue collar
:35:04. > :35:05.farming communities where voters complained they'd been forgotten.
:35:06. > :35:07.A timely revival of Sam Shepard's 1979
:35:08. > :35:08.Pulitzer Prize-winning play Buried Child has
:35:09. > :35:16.It stars Ed Harris - you know the slightly scary one
:35:17. > :35:19.with the icy blue stare - as the father of a rural family
:35:20. > :35:48.struggling with poverty, addiction and the darkest of secrets.
:35:49. > :35:52.Well, you know, I was talking to Sam just a couple of weeks ago,
:35:53. > :35:58.Sam Shepard, you know the playwright, and by his own
:35:59. > :36:01.admission he was trying to kind of take that family drama,
:36:02. > :36:06.you know, the Tennessee Williams or Eugene O'Neill, Arthur Miller,
:36:07. > :36:12.and kind of break it up a little bit and see where it could go, you know?
:36:13. > :36:15.This is a rather dysfunctional, eccentric family in the farmland
:36:16. > :36:23.of southern Illinois and there's a big dark secret that they haven't
:36:24. > :36:25.been dealing with for years and years, and it all comes
:36:26. > :36:33.It's been described by one of the New York critics
:36:34. > :36:43.The play here, as you say, is set in rural Illinois post dust
:36:44. > :36:46.bowl so it's not a very fertile part of America,
:36:47. > :36:49.but again, going back to what's going on now and Rust Belt America,
:36:50. > :36:52.what do you think about the sense that the core of America,
:36:53. > :36:54.that old productive, working-class, hard-working core has had its heart
:36:55. > :37:02.Well, you know, starting with the Reagan administration,
:37:03. > :37:05.I mean its unions have been decimated.
:37:06. > :37:08.It used to be a really strong part of the working force
:37:09. > :37:11.It provided a lot of people with employment and benefits etc.
:37:12. > :37:17.That's all gone by the wayside, and a lot of the jobs,
:37:18. > :37:19.you know, have gone and they're not coming back.
:37:20. > :37:20.They're just not coming back, period.
:37:21. > :37:23.Not even if you return to some kind of protectionism,
:37:24. > :37:29.Not kind of factory jobs where there are things
:37:30. > :37:31.that are automated now and being done by machines.
:37:32. > :37:35.You're not going to go backwards with that.
:37:36. > :37:37.So Trump's claim of, you know, he's going to create
:37:38. > :37:41.millions and millions of jobs, we shall see.
:37:42. > :37:44.I don't know what sector they are going to come in.
:37:45. > :37:47.I wanted to ask you about Westworld, the other thing that people
:37:48. > :37:57.Your guy, the Man in Black, is going into this virtual world
:37:58. > :37:58.to enact pretty horrible desires and fantasies.
:37:59. > :38:04.I've always admired your resolve, Theodore.
:38:05. > :38:06.Thing is, you never understand the game is rigged.
:38:07. > :38:21.I wonder to what extent the nastiness of that side
:38:22. > :38:23.of Westworld also reflects, in your view, of what's
:38:24. > :38:25.going on in the world at the moment.
:38:26. > :38:27.It doesn't paint a very rosy picture of humanity, does it?
:38:28. > :38:29.I know that, from myself, from my own character,
:38:30. > :38:32.he's been coming to this park of 30 years, you know.
:38:33. > :38:39.He discovered this side of himself when he first came to this park.
:38:40. > :38:41.So he goes there once a month, you know,
:38:42. > :38:44.On the outside world, ultimately, you find out some
:38:45. > :38:53.But he's not, you know, he's not harming human beings,
:38:54. > :38:55.he's harming artificial intelligence and he's purging this
:38:56. > :39:02.Although this time he says he's not leaving so we will see what happens.
:39:03. > :39:05.HBO have created this dystopian playpark with a vast, vast budget.
:39:06. > :39:12.A second series has been commissioned and the Man in Black
:39:13. > :39:14.is in the second series as well, I gather?
:39:15. > :39:18.I am indeed, yes, I was just talking to Jonah the other night.
:39:19. > :39:21.HBO initially wanted them to do eight episodes,
:39:22. > :39:25.I think, and we really need ten to tell the story we want to tell,
:39:26. > :39:29.so since it's a successful show, they said OK.
:39:30. > :39:32.But it's hugely expensive, yes, quite an endeavour.
:39:33. > :39:35.The play went down very well in New York, you've now got
:39:36. > :39:36.a different audience, a London audience.
:39:37. > :39:39.Do you feel a difference in the audience in London?
:39:40. > :39:44.Actually not so much, Andrew.
:39:45. > :39:47.We've had I don't know how many previews, maybe six,
:39:48. > :39:49.seven, I'm not sure, but the audiences seem
:39:50. > :39:58.They get the humour of it, and also get very quiet
:39:59. > :40:01.during the darker things that happen, and I think they enjoy
:40:02. > :40:05.It's been a great privilege talking to you, thank you very much.
:40:06. > :40:08.Same here, thanks for having me on the show, I appreciate it.
:40:09. > :40:12.And Buried Child by Sam Shepard is at London's Trafalgar Studios
:40:13. > :40:18.The leading Tory strategist behind the successful campaign to persuade
:40:19. > :40:20.Britain to leave the EU was the former Lord
:40:21. > :40:25.Since being fired from the Government by Theresa May
:40:26. > :40:27.in July he's been writing about the American elections
:40:28. > :40:30.and helped found Change Britain, a group dedicated to ensuring
:40:31. > :40:40.that the Government delivers on the Brexit vote.
:40:41. > :40:47.Welcome, Mr Gove. Can I ask about the slew of forecasts we have had
:40:48. > :40:51.this week. Terrifying, we are not economists but 200,000 job losses,
:40:52. > :40:55.they are talking about, extra ?60 billion hole in the public finances
:40:56. > :41:00.and a miserable decade of almost no growth in real wages for most
:41:01. > :41:04.people. It's possible they are right, isn't it? For me it felt like
:41:05. > :41:09.deja vu all over again. I remember during the referendum campaign that
:41:10. > :41:15.we had a litany of warnings, the sky was going to be dark, there would be
:41:16. > :41:20.a plague on the street, if we voted to leave the EU. The reality is as
:41:21. > :41:24.you pointed out over the top of the show... We have had lots of good
:41:25. > :41:27.news and so on. I think that therefore the Chancellor and the
:41:28. > :41:34.Prime Minister are right, obviously, to respect the independence of the
:41:35. > :41:37.OBR but right also to take it as the Chancellor's aides were saying, with
:41:38. > :41:41.a pinch of salt. There is a challenge, not so much with the
:41:42. > :41:44.government, as for many of those who were heavily invested in what became
:41:45. > :41:51.known as Project fear. The economists and opinion pollsters...
:41:52. > :41:54.Always want to be proved right. One of my concerns. Economists have to
:41:55. > :41:59.recognise their profession is in crisis. The economics profession
:42:00. > :42:08.failed to predict the 2008 financial crass, economists in the past argued
:42:09. > :42:12.to a man and woman we should enter the single currency and they were
:42:13. > :42:18.wrong about the impact of Britain voting to leave the EU. -- financial
:42:19. > :42:21.crash. Neither of us are economists but it is the Institute for Fiscal
:42:22. > :42:25.Studies and the OBR people themselves who have lots of
:42:26. > :42:30.expertise. They may be right and may be wrong but when you look at the
:42:31. > :42:33.range of possibilities ahead, as a non-expert, as I am, surely you must
:42:34. > :42:38.accept the possibility that they may be right? You have to accept that
:42:39. > :42:42.possibility and as you can tell I am radically sceptical about some of
:42:43. > :42:45.the claims made. I respect the fact that there is an integrity to the
:42:46. > :42:48.individuals making these predictions. They look at the
:42:49. > :42:51.information they have and draw the conclusions they consider
:42:52. > :42:54.appropriate. In the circumstances that is why I think Phillip Hammond
:42:55. > :42:59.as Chancellor and the Autumn Statement about right. He didn't
:43:00. > :43:05.embark on a lurch in any particular direction. I think he wisely allowed
:43:06. > :43:07.some additional measures to ensure the infrastructure spending will be
:43:08. > :43:11.there to sustain economic growth for the future so that there was a
:43:12. > :43:15.fiscal boost alongside the monetary measures that have been taken in the
:43:16. > :43:18.past. To return to the area of prediction, one of the things you
:43:19. > :43:22.mentioned at the beginning of the programme was I was critical of
:43:23. > :43:26.experts. In the now notorious comment I made I was cut off in
:43:27. > :43:29.midstream, as politicians often are, the point I made was not that all
:43:30. > :43:34.experts are wrong, that is manifestly nonsense. Expert
:43:35. > :43:40.engineers, expert doctors, physicists. There is a subclass of
:43:41. > :43:43.experts, particularly economists, pollsters, social scientists, who do
:43:44. > :43:46.have to reflect on some of the mistakes they have made, the same as
:43:47. > :43:51.a politician, I reflect some of my mistakes. Reflecting on mistakes,
:43:52. > :43:55.if, and a big if, and if they were right we face a dreadful decade
:43:56. > :44:00.would you then apologise for people on embarking us on this path? I've
:44:01. > :44:04.always been ready to apologise for mistakes I've made, certainly after
:44:05. > :44:06.a period of reflection. I'm radically sceptical about these
:44:07. > :44:12.claims because we have been told beforehand that doom will follow and
:44:13. > :44:16.it hasn't. Why look in these crystal balls when you can read the book,
:44:17. > :44:19.and the book tells us, the reports tell us as you mentioned, there has
:44:20. > :44:21.been significant additional investment in the British economy,
:44:22. > :44:29.we have record low unemployment, inflation is at a decent level and
:44:30. > :44:32.economic growth is higher and the recession which was predicted we
:44:33. > :44:39.would have if we voted to leave. By now? Yes, has gone like a puff of
:44:40. > :44:42.smoke. Since you are one of the architects of the Leave campaign,
:44:43. > :44:46.can I check a few things with you? And my right to say that if we were
:44:47. > :44:50.in the customs union we wouldn't be able to do the free-trade deals
:44:51. > :44:54.around the world essential to our future outside the EU? And therefore
:44:55. > :44:59.in your view we could not be in the customs union? Yes, I cannot see how
:45:00. > :45:02.you can. I think when people voted to leave the European Union they
:45:03. > :45:08.voted to take back control of our money, our laws, trade deals and our
:45:09. > :45:12.borders. That means that the Single Market, which is basically a
:45:13. > :45:16.bureaucratic web, we need to be out of, and the customs union, in so far
:45:17. > :45:20.as it prevents us from forging trade deals with other countries, we
:45:21. > :45:24.should be out of that too. Control means control. I'm trying to work
:45:25. > :45:27.out what the government could do because business obviously wants
:45:28. > :45:32.maximum access to these markets, 500 million people, and so forth. If we
:45:33. > :45:39.had some kind of deal whereby we did sector by sector deals to allow
:45:40. > :45:41.groups of EU workers to carry on coming into this country, the
:45:42. > :45:44.construction industry says we need X number of plumbers or the NHS says
:45:45. > :45:46.we need this number of gynaecological nurses, they get a
:45:47. > :45:50.ticket from the government and those people can come in and in return we
:45:51. > :45:53.get tariff free access from free markets, that would be a deal you
:45:54. > :45:59.could live with? It is up to the government. What is your view? My
:46:00. > :46:02.own preference is for a fair migration policy which doesn't
:46:03. > :46:05.discriminate between EU citizens and others. I don't see just because you
:46:06. > :46:08.happen to be Bulgarian why you should have any more rights to come
:46:09. > :46:13.here than someone from Bangladesh. It should be a case of skills, as
:46:14. > :46:16.you say if it is the case there are particular skills people have that
:46:17. > :46:22.can aid the NHS they should come here. My own belief and conviction
:46:23. > :46:24.is you should have a colour-blind, non-discriminatory immigration
:46:25. > :46:29.policy. Also, I think there is a tendency to overcome the Kbis. I
:46:30. > :46:34.think we can fairly quickly say to the other European nations -- over
:46:35. > :46:39.complicated this. We hope our citizens will be safe in the EU and
:46:40. > :46:44.we will guarantee the return are a civilised country. Should we do that
:46:45. > :46:48.now? Yes, and at the same time, if you want to, you can start a trade
:46:49. > :46:52.war with us, but we don't want that, we want tariff free access, you sell
:46:53. > :46:56.more to us so we are doing you a favour net we want to be good
:46:57. > :46:59.neighbours. Very clear, let me ask about a few other things that have
:47:00. > :47:03.come up. First of all, John Major, your former leader, suggested if we
:47:04. > :47:06.don't like the deal we getting there should be a second referendum.
:47:07. > :47:10.Democratically, any reason why should be?
:47:11. > :47:18.I think people would be rightly angry. I saw someone recently who
:47:19. > :47:21.said that after the Battle of Hastings in 1066 there should have
:47:22. > :47:29.been another fight in order to discover whether we would have a
:47:30. > :47:35.hard Norman conquest or soft Norman conquest! The truth is we have a
:47:36. > :47:38.long, passionate, at times wrench referendum debate, in the end the
:47:39. > :47:43.vote was clear and overwhelmingly now almost everyone who voted to
:47:44. > :47:49.leave and significant sections of those who voted to remain, want to
:47:50. > :47:52.get on with it. We have the Prime Minister and government that is
:47:53. > :47:58.tuned to that. While I respect John Major's history of service to the
:47:59. > :48:03.country, in this area his reported comments are wrong. Let's move onto
:48:04. > :48:06.something else, Theresa May is worried, reportedly, about there
:48:07. > :48:10.being a cliff edge at the end of this process. We have had the
:48:11. > :48:13.governor of the Bank of England now saying there should be a buffer
:48:14. > :48:18.period of an extra two years so there is a smooth transition from
:48:19. > :48:25.being inside the EU to outside. A lot of business people would say
:48:26. > :48:29.that is a sensible suggestion. I'm open to it but not convinced we need
:48:30. > :48:33.one because there is a tendency to overcomplicate this process. There
:48:34. > :48:40.are all sorts of things we can do with our European partners and we
:48:41. > :48:45.should carry on cooperating with them on defence and security, but
:48:46. > :48:47.outside the European Union, and these are ongoing processes, ongoing
:48:48. > :48:52.conversations we have as a good neighbour. But my worry is there are
:48:53. > :48:56.some people who cannot get over the fact the British people voted to
:48:57. > :49:00.leave the European Union and want us to have a transition period which is
:49:01. > :49:05.as close as possible to avoiding Brexit. Some people talk about hard
:49:06. > :49:10.Brexit, what they are really trying to do is make a liberation sound
:49:11. > :49:14.like a punishment. I think it is far better to provide people with
:49:15. > :49:19.certainty and to do so by having a clear, clean and simple approach
:49:20. > :49:26.which allows us to enter a new phase, Britain as a sovereign nation
:49:27. > :49:31.outside the EU, -- cooperating with our friends and neighbours. Mr
:49:32. > :49:35.Verstappen has said since then he thinks individual British people
:49:36. > :49:39.should have the ability to buy individual membership of the EU so
:49:40. > :49:47.you can have two passports. Do you think that is a good idea? No, but
:49:48. > :49:55.he is a witty man and I think this was... A joke? I think it was a
:49:56. > :49:59.tease, a provocation. To be fair to the EU's negotiating team, they have
:50:00. > :50:11.been broadly clear they want to hang tough at this stage. That's why I
:50:12. > :50:14.think Theresa May is her cards close to her chest. The people who want
:50:15. > :50:16.more detail, because they want to try to trip her up, and the media,
:50:17. > :50:21.because they want the next chapter to the story. But having been a
:50:22. > :50:29.minister, I recognise she is playing it right. What about the suggestion
:50:30. > :50:33.that we will be paying into the EU budget, possibly until 2030 in terms
:50:34. > :50:39.of our commitments to people's pensions and so forth for very long
:50:40. > :50:45.time? Will that be acceptable? We need to work out what the divorce
:50:46. > :50:48.arrangements are. I can see us once we have left still playing into the
:50:49. > :51:00.common fund on things like science, but again, the people who made those
:51:01. > :51:03.comments seem to be trying it on. It is more vital for Germany than in
:51:04. > :51:07.Britain that we have a free-trade deal so at this stage there is a lot
:51:08. > :51:12.of shadow-boxing. Let's make sure that when we get down to the proper
:51:13. > :51:16.negotiations, we do so... And the Government are clear about this, a
:51:17. > :51:19.clear end date at the end of which we are outside the European Union
:51:20. > :51:24.and while we may be paying some legacy sums, they are tiny. You were
:51:25. > :51:28.clear during the referendum campaign that we would go into a new world of
:51:29. > :51:34.free trade deals around the world. Since then we have had Donald Trump,
:51:35. > :51:37.who was a protectionist, being elected in America, Marine Le Pen is
:51:38. > :51:44.a protectionist in France, but aren't we heading out into a free
:51:45. > :51:48.trading world at the wrong moment when there are protectionists all
:51:49. > :51:51.around us. I would not have voted for Donald Trump, one of the reasons
:51:52. > :51:56.is his protectionist rhetoric but since he has become president he and
:51:57. > :52:03.his team have made it clear they want a free trade deal with the UK.
:52:04. > :52:08.Paul Ryan has said that he wants a rapid free trade deal with the
:52:09. > :52:12.United Kingdom, so I hope we can secure that trade deal, not just
:52:13. > :52:14.with America but with other like-minded nations, and also
:52:15. > :52:19.Theresa May has made it clear she wants to be a leader for the
:52:20. > :52:22.argument for free trade globally. I think there is a role for a British
:52:23. > :52:26.Prime Minister leading an independent sovereign nation in
:52:27. > :52:30.making the case for bringing down the borders on trade but respecting
:52:31. > :52:36.countries' borders when it comes to security. It is clearly in our
:52:37. > :52:44.interest to do the best deal with Donald Trump's America, so wouldn't
:52:45. > :52:53.it be crazy to push Nigel Farage out of the picture? Whatever you think
:52:54. > :53:02.of him, he has an in with Donald Trump. Shouldn't we be using him? We
:53:03. > :53:07.should have professionals doing their job, but certainly Nigel
:53:08. > :53:11.Farage, 4 million people voted for him at the last general election, he
:53:12. > :53:13.should be respected and not abused. Much more to talk about but for now
:53:14. > :53:16.thank you very much indeed. Now, a word about what's coming
:53:17. > :53:18.up an hour from now, when Andrew Neil will be
:53:19. > :53:21.here with the Sunday Politics. He'll be picking up on those
:53:22. > :53:23.comments about NHS funding from Stephen Dorrell
:53:24. > :53:25.with Labour's Shadow Health He'll also be debating that question
:53:26. > :53:28.of a second EU referendum with Lord Ashdown and former
:53:29. > :53:32.Tory Cabinet Minister Owen Paterson. That's the Sunday Politics
:53:33. > :53:35.with Andrew Neil from Emily Thornberry magically here,
:53:36. > :53:55.she joins Michael Gove. George Osborne made an interesting
:53:56. > :53:59.intervention this week when he said that as a minister, the trouble is
:54:00. > :54:03.you get caught up with things you said and you cannot ever deny them
:54:04. > :54:10.again so you get caught up never admitting to any mistakes, or put --
:54:11. > :54:23.all politicians are the same, do you agree with that? Yes. Yes. I am a
:54:24. > :54:29.backbencher now, I can look back at my time of a minister and say I am
:54:30. > :54:32.proud of that. If you were to tempt Emily into acknowledging she might
:54:33. > :54:37.have made mistakes that would be a story, whereas if I acknowledge the
:54:38. > :54:41.mistakes I made, that is old news. What is the worst mistake you have
:54:42. > :54:47.made that you have not confessed to yet? I don't know, there are so
:54:48. > :54:51.many! One I did confess to, which happened relatively early was
:54:52. > :54:59.cancelling building schools for the future. It was done in a crass and
:55:00. > :55:04.insensitive way, and it taught me a lesson. David Davis came up to me at
:55:05. > :55:08.the end of what had been a very bruising experience for me in the
:55:09. > :55:16.House of Commons, and he said, and he used an Anglo-Saxon phrase, you
:55:17. > :55:22.will be a better minister for this because you learn from your
:55:23. > :55:25.mistakes. This is perhaps one of the points of George's, there can
:55:26. > :55:28.sometimes be a football manager culture in politics which means that
:55:29. > :55:33.we are too quick to condemn people when they make a mistake and too
:55:34. > :55:38.quick to call for their resignation, when the best learn from their
:55:39. > :55:47.errors and improve on the job. Emily Thornberry, what do you think your
:55:48. > :55:56.worst mistake was? Was it the Saint George's cross mistake? Those who
:55:57. > :56:03.know my background know that I don't sneer at people and that wasn't
:56:04. > :56:08.fair, so that people deliberately misinterpreted it. Some people were
:56:09. > :56:13.deliberately offended -- genuinely offended but there was a lot of spin
:56:14. > :56:17.on it. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn was unbalanced and his reaction to
:56:18. > :56:22.Castro? It try to put forward both sides and it does depend which bit
:56:23. > :56:29.you are quoted on. I disagree with Jeremy Corbyn about Fidel Castro but
:56:30. > :56:35.that's not news either. To be fair to all politicians, sometimes when
:56:36. > :56:39.we are trying to explain our position, we are not word perfect. I
:56:40. > :56:43.mentioned the thing I had said about experts and I was making a broader
:56:44. > :56:53.point, and then in the heat of the debate... Two things I would say,
:56:54. > :56:56.one the subsequent quotation was unfair editing, but real thing was
:56:57. > :57:04.that I wasn't particularly adroit in interview either. The trouble is
:57:05. > :57:05.that people... We have run out of time I'm afraid. That also happens
:57:06. > :57:08.in politics. We'll be back next Sunday
:57:09. > :57:11.when our guests will include the star of The X-Files
:57:12. > :57:14.and The Fall, Gillian Anderson. But we'll leave you today
:57:15. > :57:17.with another star - Jools Holland. From his new album,
:57:18. > :57:19.simply called Piano,