:00:00. > :00:00.So a new political year and good news.
:00:07. > :00:08.We are, according to the Prime Minister,
:00:09. > :00:14.But what does that mean for the crisis-hit NHS,
:00:15. > :00:18.for education, taxes, the future of the UK itself?
:00:19. > :00:40.We'll keep on scrabbling for answers.
:00:41. > :00:43.On this morning's show, I've been talking to Nicola Sturgeon,
:00:44. > :00:48.Scottish first Minister, who today issues a new challenge
:00:49. > :00:51.to Theresa May about Brexit and a second vote to end the union.
:00:52. > :00:57.Plus Cabinet Minister Justine Greening
:00:58. > :00:59.responding for the Government on health
:01:00. > :01:10.Following the shock resignation of Sir Ivan Rogers,
:01:11. > :01:13.our man in Brussels, the arch Tory Remainer Ken Clarke
:01:14. > :01:17.on whether the civil service is institutionally biased.
:01:18. > :01:21.And in a show rather dominated by strong women,
:01:22. > :01:25.actor Joanna Scanlan tells us about her leading role
:01:26. > :01:27.in the hit show of the moment, Channel 4's No Offence,
:01:28. > :01:34.the columnists Steve Richards and Julia Hartley-Brewer
:01:35. > :01:37.and David Cameron's former communications director
:01:38. > :01:47.Prime Minister Theresa May is promising to introduce
:01:48. > :01:49.wide-ranging social reforms, to correct what she calls
:01:50. > :01:52.the everyday injustices faced by ordinary working families.
:01:53. > :01:54.In an article for the Sunday Telegraph, she says she wants
:01:55. > :01:57.to build a shared society with a commitment to fairness.
:01:58. > :02:01.The Prime Minister will make a speech on the subject
:02:02. > :02:10.the first of a series of interventions on domestic policy.
:02:11. > :02:12.Scotland's First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, has insisted
:02:13. > :02:15.she is not bluffing about the prospect of a second Scottish
:02:16. > :02:19.Ms Sturgeon told this programme that she was prepared
:02:20. > :02:22.to call a fresh vote if the Government did not deliver
:02:23. > :02:24.the right terms for Scotland in the Brexit negotiations.
:02:25. > :02:29.if they think I'm in any way bluffing.
:02:30. > :02:33.If it comes to the point, two years after Scotland being told,
:02:34. > :02:38."Don't leave the UK," here we are - we voted to stay in the EU,
:02:39. > :02:42.and we were told voting no was the only way to stay,
:02:43. > :02:49.that creates a much more fundamental question for Scotland.
:02:50. > :02:53.And you can see more of that interview later in this programme.
:02:54. > :02:55.The Israeli ambassador to the UK has apologised
:02:56. > :02:59.after an embassy employee was secretly recorded
:03:00. > :03:03.discussing a plan to bring down a government minister.
:03:04. > :03:09.shows the official, Shai Masot, saying he would like to "take down"
:03:10. > :03:12.the Foreign Office Minister Sir Alan Duncan.
:03:13. > :03:14.Mr Masot said the MP was causing "a lot of problems".
:03:15. > :03:20.it now considers the matter closed following the apology.
:03:21. > :03:23.Labour is calling on the Prime Minister to approve a ?700 million
:03:24. > :03:27.emergency cash injection to help the NHS through the winter.
:03:28. > :03:32.The British Red Cross has warned of a humanitarian crisis
:03:33. > :03:37.The Shadow Health Secretary Jonathan Ashworth said Mrs May
:03:38. > :03:44.needed to ensure that this year's crisis never happened again.
:03:45. > :03:47.An American war veteran has been charged over the shooting
:03:48. > :03:49.at Fort Lauderdale Airport in Florida on Friday,
:03:50. > :03:57.could face the death penalty if found guilty.
:03:58. > :03:59.It's emerged that one of the victims,
:04:00. > :04:04.a woman in her 80s, was born in Britain.
:04:05. > :04:06.That's all from me, for now. Back to you, Andrew.
:04:07. > :04:12.Now to the papers, and with me to review the papers
:04:13. > :04:13.are Steve Richards, Sir Craig Oliver
:04:14. > :04:21.The Observer, Theresa May urged to get a grip on the NHS as winter
:04:22. > :04:25.crisis spirals, the story we have just been hearing about, as is often
:04:26. > :04:30.the case with the Sunday papers. The Sunday Times, Theresa May's Rech
:04:31. > :04:41.said rebels secretly met David Cameron, that is Ivan Rogers. --
:04:42. > :04:46.Brexit rebel. Cracking story about the Israeli diplomat, talking about
:04:47. > :04:51.taking down so Alan Duncan, and he also talks to Labour MPs, that will
:04:52. > :04:56.be a story that runs and runs and runs. Finally, the Sunday Telegraph,
:04:57. > :04:59.now it is the shared society, not the big society, which was David
:05:00. > :05:03.Cameron's thing, saying that Theresa May is very different from David
:05:04. > :05:07.Cameron, very different from Margaret Thatcher. It has an article
:05:08. > :05:12.by her inside which we are going to talk about with Steve Richards, you
:05:13. > :05:15.have gone to the article. Yes, for the Sunday Telegraph, and although
:05:16. > :05:22.on one level people will think, what complete waffle to start the New
:05:23. > :05:25.Year with another variation of a society theme, big society under
:05:26. > :05:29.David Cameron, shared society under her, I think it is quite
:05:30. > :05:33.interesting. This is about a fourth attempt, whenever she has got the
:05:34. > :05:37.stage, to try and put the case partly for government in a way that
:05:38. > :05:42.David Cameron did not do. So she specifically says in this article,
:05:43. > :05:50.this is not about the Government, the state getting out of the way. Is
:05:51. > :05:53.this a bigger government initiative? In a way that Labour leaders could
:05:54. > :05:59.not do, to put the case to say that they could have a benevolent
:06:00. > :06:10.potential. The rest of the news papers show the challenge of that,
:06:11. > :06:14.but at the start of the year, when you get time to frame a message,
:06:15. > :06:22.interesting that she puts that case. There was quite stinging when she
:06:23. > :06:27.says that the big society is over. The reality of the big society was
:06:28. > :06:32.that the volume on that got turned down a lot during his premiership,
:06:33. > :06:37.as a result of dealing with the deficit. But Steve is absolutely
:06:38. > :06:40.right, at the beginning of a new term, the Prime Minister wants to
:06:41. > :06:44.set the agenda, say, this is what I want to talk about. Theresa May is
:06:45. > :06:48.saying, I want to talk about the people who are just about managing,
:06:49. > :06:53.just above the welfare thing. The reality is, if you look at the
:06:54. > :06:56.editorial that goes with it, it is a stronger, fairer place - who could
:06:57. > :07:01.disagree? The question for Theresa May is going to be, what are the
:07:02. > :07:09.policies that the fine that. That is the question, what is behind this
:07:10. > :07:14.glorious glossy verbiage to Michael Gove I think most British people
:07:15. > :07:21.will sigh and turn it over and get over it all, the big society never
:07:22. > :07:24.happened, it is not possible. They want a government that get out of
:07:25. > :07:27.their way and enables them to live the life they want, does the
:07:28. > :07:33.important stuff, like the NHS, and we will talk about the problems in
:07:34. > :07:37.the NHS. Dealing with Brexit, housing crisis and NHS crisis, and
:07:38. > :07:42.nothing else matters. There is a lot of hard work to be done, and of
:07:43. > :07:47.course Theresa May, as the Economist has pointed out, is already under
:07:48. > :07:53.fire for not giving the kind of decisive leadership that some in the
:07:54. > :07:57.Tory party were looking for. Theresa May be, they are saying. We have got
:07:58. > :08:00.them in both forms here, and the Economist is good at capturing the
:08:01. > :08:04.political zeitgeist, they do it quite often on a front page which
:08:05. > :08:15.frames the weight leaders are perceived, and this is to -- Theresa
:08:16. > :08:19.Maybe, and they suggest that she's indecisive and a muddled. I am not
:08:20. > :08:23.entirely sure whether that is fair in relation to Brexit, we will talk
:08:24. > :08:28.about those stories in a moment. I kind of prefer the fact that she
:08:29. > :08:32.doesn't say... Under David Cameron and Tony Blair, we would have a
:08:33. > :08:36.point mark a plan to feed the media machine on Brexit, all of which
:08:37. > :08:40.would be meaningless once we had triggered Article 50. In a way, the
:08:41. > :08:44.lower profile at this point is more sensible, as long as she knows what
:08:45. > :08:49.she's doing behind the scenes. There might be some doubt about that.
:08:50. > :08:53.Craig, the meeting between Sir Ivan and your former boss, what was he
:08:54. > :08:59.like from your point of view? There was a lot of argument about whether
:09:00. > :09:04.he was basically too wrote Europhile, anti-Brexit, causing
:09:05. > :09:07.problems for David Cameron during the famous negotiations, and was
:09:08. > :09:11.causing problems for Theresa May before he went. When I was in
:09:12. > :09:17.Downing Street, he had the affectionate nickname of Tin Hat,
:09:18. > :09:21.because he used to send long e-mails which were quite dark, saying how
:09:22. > :09:25.difficult things would be. Some people thought he was being as a
:09:26. > :09:28.mystic, others thought he was being a hard-headed pragmatists, telling
:09:29. > :09:32.people how it is. -- he was being pessimistic. That seems to be at the
:09:33. > :09:36.core of the issue, if you read between the lines, he was suggesting
:09:37. > :09:41.he was worried about this orderly Brexit, the idea that we crashed out
:09:42. > :09:58.of the EU without a proper deal. -- about this this - disorderly Brexit.
:09:59. > :10:12.Julia, you think there is a tranche of Eurocrats getting in a way at the
:10:13. > :10:17.moment? The reality is that nobody would have got to the point of being
:10:18. > :10:20.the British ambassador to the EU without being fully signed up to the
:10:21. > :10:24.political project, and that is what we voted against. He was standing in
:10:25. > :10:28.the way, he was seeing problems where there are opportunities. We
:10:29. > :10:33.talk about hard Brexit, crashing out of the EU, what, like most countries
:10:34. > :10:38.of the world, not being in a closed trading bloc? It is just a nonsense,
:10:39. > :10:45.he is clearly unfit for the job. His e-mail resignation made him unfit
:10:46. > :10:48.for the job, and he should be out of the civil service, goodbye, good
:10:49. > :10:51.riddance. We will hear more of his side of the story from Ken Clarke
:10:52. > :10:56.later. Let's move onto a big story, the Mail on Sunday comes from the Al
:10:57. > :11:03.Jazeera interview, a London restaurant, with an Israeli
:11:04. > :11:09.diplomat, there it is, let's take-down Boris's deputy. Why not?!
:11:10. > :11:13.The first thing to say is that this is a classic piece of Simon Walters
:11:14. > :11:18.mischiefmaking, he does it so well at the Mail on Sunday, comes up with
:11:19. > :11:20.these scoops. It is extremely chilling, you are hearing a senior
:11:21. > :11:24.diplomat saying that they want to take down a senior Foreign Minister,
:11:25. > :11:26.somebody who works for a Conservative minister seems to be
:11:27. > :11:33.colluding in it, but at another level it is almost semi comic. When
:11:34. > :11:38.you read the exchange, the diplomat as saying, can I give you a list of
:11:39. > :11:43.MPs that you want to take down? Ice think there is something they are
:11:44. > :11:48.trying to hide. Later, the De Boer man says, a little scandal, don't
:11:49. > :11:53.tell anyone about this meeting, who would tell? -- the diplomat says. It
:11:54. > :11:58.looks like they have been watching too much of The House Of Cards, but
:11:59. > :12:05.actually found themselves in The Thick Of It! There is a wonderful
:12:06. > :12:09.message from the Israeli is he saying this does not represent the
:12:10. > :12:13.views of the Israeli government! This does cross quite a lot of
:12:14. > :12:21.lines, a dip and trying to destroy the reputation of a senior minister.
:12:22. > :12:25.-- a diplomat. When the stories break, governments just want to shut
:12:26. > :12:29.it down, it is embarrassing. They have apologised. In the old days,
:12:30. > :12:33.the ambassador would have been kicked out of the country. Well, it
:12:34. > :12:37.depends which country you are dealing with, and the realities of
:12:38. > :12:40.dealing with Israel, it is embarrassing, for the Israelis and
:12:41. > :12:44.for the Government, they just want to shut it down, but a great scoop
:12:45. > :12:49.for the Mail on Sunday. The other big story of the weekend is the NHS,
:12:50. > :12:56.Steve, you have got the Mail on Sunday there. Both the Observer is
:12:57. > :13:04.splashing on it as well, and the Mail on Sunday is going quite big on
:13:05. > :13:08.it, no-one, no single free bed in 15 hospitals. This is kind of connected
:13:09. > :13:13.with Theresa May's shared society, if you are going to put the case for
:13:14. > :13:17.government and people's contact with government is a shambolic NHS, that
:13:18. > :13:22.is not going to ride. It is not going to work, is it? There is an
:13:23. > :13:27.issue about funding, structure, and they found a few pennies for elderly
:13:28. > :13:32.care at the end of last year, but very few pennies, just not enough,
:13:33. > :13:35.they will have to find the money. Steve, you may be point that at the
:13:36. > :13:39.beginning of the year the Prime Minister frames the debate, but we
:13:40. > :13:43.also have, will there be an NHS crisis this year or not? It seems to
:13:44. > :13:48.be shaping up to be a big one this time. Very hard for people watching
:13:49. > :13:57.to really know, of course. Yeah, there could be one of those vivid
:13:58. > :13:59.images that kind of transforms the whole story, in other words a
:14:00. > :14:02.patient being photographed waiting 20 hours on a trolley or something.
:14:03. > :14:05.Two people on trolleys, one of whom has died. This will be a real
:14:06. > :14:11.concern for Downing Street, and what is interesting is that a former
:14:12. > :14:15.health minister and practising GP, he is making a play on the front
:14:16. > :14:22.page of the Observer for everyone to add knowledge that there is a
:14:23. > :14:28.problem and discuss it sensibly. The crisis is really in social care, not
:14:29. > :14:32.A, in overall funding, the non-joined up thinking. Hands up who
:14:33. > :14:36.knew that the Red Cross was so involved in hospitals in this
:14:37. > :14:42.country, using Red Cross ambulances? Absolutely not. They used this
:14:43. > :14:45.phrase, humanitarian crisis. The reality is most countries have
:14:46. > :14:49.better health services, but they spend a lot more money, a huge
:14:50. > :14:56.amount more than we do, and we have to have a conversation where we talk
:14:57. > :14:58.about that. The reality is that all the political parties except the NHS
:14:59. > :15:03.is incredibly important and want to celebrate its values, but whoever
:15:04. > :15:07.was in power, having an ageing population... And I think if you go
:15:08. > :15:11.back to Theresa May and the shared society, if it does have any
:15:12. > :15:16.meaning, part of that is our responsibility to look after our own
:15:17. > :15:20.health as well. Ageing is a good thing, but getting fatter is also
:15:21. > :15:25.going to rip apart the NHS. You are right to fix on the Red Cross quote,
:15:26. > :15:30.because when Labour were in power, Robert Winston said his mum got
:15:31. > :15:33.better treatment in Poland than in the English NHS, and that is when
:15:34. > :15:38.Tony Blair came on this programme and said we will up the money to the
:15:39. > :15:39.EU. It states a vivid quote to capture the scale of the crisis,
:15:40. > :15:53.this might be it. -- it takes. Another place we are seeing a real
:15:54. > :15:59.crisis is the rail industry. We have a tube strike starting tonight,
:16:00. > :16:05.chaos in the south-east, but it will spread nationwide. There has been
:16:06. > :16:09.some suspicion that this is actually orchestrated, this winter of
:16:10. > :16:12.discontent and the unions all in cahoots on this. Some people have
:16:13. > :16:18.spoken about having a winter of discontent. That's the idea. A
:16:19. > :16:23.long-suffering rail user, but a lot of people think the solution is what
:16:24. > :16:27.Jeremy Corbyn is offering, renationalisation with individual
:16:28. > :16:32.contracts for rail companies. Either way, people are fed up of not being
:16:33. > :16:40.able to get to work. It interesting talking about Brexit, the strikes,
:16:41. > :16:46.that is the reality of this Government. Even though the trains
:16:47. > :16:53.are privatised, the Government is answerable, as Chris Grayling is
:16:54. > :17:02.discovering. I am going to Brighton tomorrow, I will be cycling! Getting
:17:03. > :17:15.over some seasonal overweight! Solving lots of problems in one! And
:17:16. > :17:21.now snowflakes... Yes, it used to be a phrase, snowflake generation. And
:17:22. > :17:27.is it snowflake because you melt at the first sign of trouble. Yes, now
:17:28. > :17:33.they are warning against snowflake University allowance. Because they
:17:34. > :17:38.are ranked about what a lot of students rate them, there is concern
:17:39. > :17:42.about not upsetting students and we don't upset them perhaps are we not
:17:43. > :17:46.challenging them directly, but a lot of academics think we will be
:17:47. > :17:50.shutting down free debate in universities and it will be the
:17:51. > :17:54.students setting the agenda instead of the people who are supposed to be
:17:55. > :17:59.teaching them. I think it is madness and actually a form of censorship.
:18:00. > :18:06.Do we agree with this? I see silence from the other end of the sofa. It
:18:07. > :18:11.is a little harsh on young people, I think. You see that all the time, I
:18:12. > :18:20.don't like that so you cannot say it. It didn't happen in my day or
:18:21. > :18:25.your day. There are things you cannot say... I would just like to
:18:26. > :18:28.say to all the students watching, if you are offended by anything you
:18:29. > :18:34.have heard, we are terribly, terribly sorry. No, we are not!
:18:35. > :18:37.The new year has only just begun and, as we've heard,
:18:38. > :18:39.already Brexit tensions are bubbling after the resignation
:18:40. > :18:42.last week of the UK's ambassador to the EU, Sir Ivan Rogers.
:18:43. > :18:43.He's fiercely attacked in today's papers,
:18:44. > :18:45.but his friends defend his description
:18:46. > :18:46.of the Government's Brexit strategy as muddled.
:18:47. > :18:54.One of those friends is the veteran Europhile Ken Clarke.
:18:55. > :19:00.Welcome. The fundamental charge against a big tranche of our
:19:01. > :19:03.diplomatic service is that they are, because of the way they have been
:19:04. > :19:07.brought up and the languages they speak and so forth, they are
:19:08. > :19:10.institutionally Europhile, institutionally hostile to Brexit,
:19:11. > :19:14.they didn't give David Cameron the best shots he had at that
:19:15. > :19:20.negotiation and now they are getting in the way with Theresa May. There
:19:21. > :19:23.is a hard line call of Eurosceptics, not the generality of Eurosceptics,
:19:24. > :19:28.but the real zealots in the House of Commons and in the press who just
:19:29. > :19:37.turned to abuse of anybody who fatally seems to disagree with their
:19:38. > :19:46.very hardline Brexit view, and a great establishment has a conspiracy
:19:47. > :19:51.against them. This is nonsense. Ivan would have wanted to implement the
:19:52. > :19:56.policy of the Government of the day, whatever party, whatever that policy
:19:57. > :20:05.was, and Theresa May needs to address a more serious point of the
:20:06. > :20:08.muddle that he spoke about and see if there is a more serious way for
:20:09. > :20:13.government to get to a proper conclusion. To turn everything to
:20:14. > :20:17.personal abuse as soon as anyone seems faintly to disagree with our
:20:18. > :20:20.new zealots crusade to leave the continent of Europe is rather an
:20:21. > :20:27.unfortunate feature of our post-Brexit politics, which I hope
:20:28. > :20:30.we soon lose. You called it an opinion poll but it was a national
:20:31. > :20:35.referendum which we did vote to leave and the question is whether
:20:36. > :20:48.senior diplomats are up to making that happen, helping that happen.
:20:49. > :21:00.And they are not enthusiast a cabal the project they are supposed to
:21:01. > :21:05.lead. I do know Ivan quite well, he once worked for me when he was a
:21:06. > :21:08.rising star in the Treasury. He was immediately damned amongst the
:21:09. > :21:13.zealot Eurosceptics. He doesn't share my views and I think he's a
:21:14. > :21:17.cautious pro-European but I don't know because like every civil
:21:18. > :21:21.servant he kept his political views to himself. What a civil servant
:21:22. > :21:27.wants is a clear policy guidance, that's the task of his political
:21:28. > :21:31.masters, then he will, in an expert way, seek to help the Government
:21:32. > :21:37.implement it. That means the policy you give on trade, economics,
:21:38. > :21:42.security, international crime, environmental issues, is based on
:21:43. > :21:45.fact, is actually deliverable, that the Minister understands what the
:21:46. > :21:50.problems are going to be in delivering it and so on. And
:21:51. > :21:54.honestly, Ivan has been frustrated because I suspect one or two of the
:21:55. > :21:57.individuals he is having to deal with in the different departments
:21:58. > :22:00.just give him slogans they were using during the campaign, but also
:22:01. > :22:05.he's not quite sure whether the Government has faced up to the
:22:06. > :22:09.business of having a policy in the real world. The referendum said we
:22:10. > :22:14.leave the EU, it it didn't say what our new arrangement should be with
:22:15. > :22:17.the outer world at all. Nevertheless we did vote that way and since that
:22:18. > :22:22.has happened the economy has gone much better than you and the
:22:23. > :22:26.remainder is suggested it was going to, and now we have a choice about
:22:27. > :22:33.how we leave. Nicola Sturgeon has said today that if we are not
:22:34. > :22:37.members of the single market she will trigger another referendum in
:22:38. > :22:41.Scotland. Do you think it is conceivable that we would actually
:22:42. > :22:46.stay in the single market? It would be a huge advantage to stay in the
:22:47. > :22:50.single market. The actual campaign was dreadful, as reported in the
:22:51. > :22:53.national media. The question of what our future trading relationships
:22:54. > :22:58.should be was not addressed by either side in all of the silly
:22:59. > :23:03.argument is that we used. I don't think any right of centre government
:23:04. > :23:08.in the world would think the idea of leaving free access to a market of
:23:09. > :23:17.500 million prosperous consumers was a sensible thing to do. All of our
:23:18. > :23:24.forecasts turned out to be silly, but the fact is you are bound to be
:23:25. > :23:28.poorer than you otherwise would be if you raise new trading barriers
:23:29. > :23:32.between yourself and your biggest single market in the world, the most
:23:33. > :23:39.open and free trading market in the world, of which at the moment you
:23:40. > :23:43.are leading, a leading influential member. The referendum didn't decide
:23:44. > :23:47.that and what's got to be decided is how to stay in the customs union,
:23:48. > :23:50.how to stay in the single market, and still meet some of the
:23:51. > :23:55.legitimate concerns we are expressing. This you say stay in the
:23:56. > :23:58.customs union but if we do that we cannot negotiate our own new free
:23:59. > :24:02.trade deals with other countries and frankly there is no point in this
:24:03. > :24:09.grand new department being headed by Liam Fox. There is no point, Liam
:24:10. > :24:13.has nothing to do even if we leave the customs union we won't do that
:24:14. > :24:24.for the next two or three years, he has nothing to do for the next two
:24:25. > :24:32.or three years. The customs union is the common market that we joined.
:24:33. > :24:37.Eurosceptics say that is a good thing. It is absolutely pointless to
:24:38. > :24:43.leave the customs union, so long as we can negotiate a basis on which we
:24:44. > :24:48.stay in it. It is a huge advantage and the Government must have given
:24:49. > :24:53.some reassurance to people like Nissan when they were trying to get
:24:54. > :24:59.them to invest in the north-east on the customs union. Do you think
:25:00. > :25:04.there is a plan? I don't think there was by Christmas. I haven't been in
:25:05. > :25:08.the political pool since Christmas. Theresa May has announced she will
:25:09. > :25:13.make a major speech at the end of this month, by that time she's got
:25:14. > :25:19.to have a clear plan. I think she's quite right to have said nothing so
:25:20. > :25:25.far. To start pandering to the press by giving bits of the policy was a
:25:26. > :25:28.mistake she made and she has not repeated that. By the end of this
:25:29. > :25:33.month she has got to have a clear government line, and actually just
:25:34. > :25:36.have a look at who was responsible delivering it. Having three
:25:37. > :25:40.different departments playing turf wars against each other and this
:25:41. > :25:45.kind of thing is nonsense. She needs a good diplomat in charge like Tim
:25:46. > :25:49.Barrow who she has now appointed in Brussels, and she needs to work with
:25:50. > :25:53.David Davis on putting together the right pattern which reflects the
:25:54. > :25:57.referendum, I regret that, I don't support that myself, I have not
:25:58. > :26:01.changed my views, but actually has some real practical applications in
:26:02. > :26:07.the real world, doesn't damage our investment and jobs. Ken Clarke,
:26:08. > :26:09.thank you very much for joining us this morning.
:26:10. > :26:12.It's a foggy outlook and chilly, hard to guess what's coming next.
:26:13. > :26:14.Obviously, I'm not talking politics, but about the weather,
:26:15. > :26:26.hovering delicately but wisely over the archipelago.
:26:27. > :26:31.Thank you, good morning. We will exchange this grey and settled
:26:32. > :26:35.weather this weekend for brighter but much colder weather by the end
:26:36. > :26:40.of next week. It is really quite quiet today, the fog has been the
:26:41. > :26:45.main concern. We've had freezing fog in parts of Yorkshire. Slightly
:26:46. > :26:49.thinner cloud in Nottinghamshire so there will be a little brightness
:26:50. > :26:56.around but on the whole for most of us it is a cloudy affair. The best
:26:57. > :27:00.chance of brightness east of the Grampian mountains and parts of
:27:01. > :27:04.north-east England and parts of Wales as well. It is relatively mild
:27:05. > :27:10.and it will remain that way as we go through the night because you can
:27:11. > :27:15.see the rain and wind gathering over Scotland, and some wet and windy
:27:16. > :27:20.weather for Scotland and Northern Ireland during tomorrow's rush-hour.
:27:21. > :27:26.We keep the hill fog and have a murky start to our Monday. Behind
:27:27. > :27:29.the rain, there will be a temporary cold snap, temperatures will drop
:27:30. > :27:33.over Scotland and Northern Ireland with wintry showers and blustery
:27:34. > :27:36.winds but it is later in the week that we look at the bitter winds
:27:37. > :27:42.coming down from the Arctic, bringing snow showers as well. We
:27:43. > :27:48.will pin down the detail as we go through the week so stay tuned.
:27:49. > :27:52.Of course you will, and we will. So Theresa May doesn't agree
:27:53. > :27:54.with Margaret Thatcher's version of society, and she doesn't hold
:27:55. > :27:57.with David Cameron's big society. We now live under a government
:27:58. > :28:00.committed to the shared society - I'm joined by Mrs May's
:28:01. > :28:16.Cabinet colleague and ally Is this more than glossy verbiage at
:28:17. > :28:20.the beginning of the year? What does it mean? When Theresa May came into
:28:21. > :28:24.office she said she wanted to make it a country for everyone, not just
:28:25. > :28:28.the privileged few. She saying she wants to make sure our country has a
:28:29. > :28:34.level playing field where it doesn't matter where you are growing up,
:28:35. > :28:38.what your background is, and indeed tomorrow she will be talking about
:28:39. > :28:41.mental health. Some of these burning injustices that people don't always
:28:42. > :28:45.show visibly but nevertheless have to deal with day to day need to be
:28:46. > :28:49.tackled with and what she's saying is that those issues are not going
:28:50. > :28:54.to fix themselves and she wants hers to be a government that does get in
:28:55. > :28:58.and try to sort them out for people. I cannot think of any leading
:28:59. > :29:03.politician over the last 30 years who wouldn't agree with that. The
:29:04. > :29:10.question is how this different from David Cameron's big society? The big
:29:11. > :29:13.society was much more about getting civil society part of helping to
:29:14. > :29:17.tackle many of the challenges Britain faces. I think what the
:29:18. > :29:22.Prime Minister is talking about is the fact is we simply cannot accept
:29:23. > :29:25.a country where you have a different chance of getting good education
:29:26. > :29:29.outcomes because of where you grow up. We cannot accept a country where
:29:30. > :29:34.if you are black you may have different chances of getting through
:29:35. > :29:37.the justice system. We cannot accept a country where so many young people
:29:38. > :29:43.don't have the prospect of owning their own home in spite of doing all
:29:44. > :29:48.the right things, getting through university, working hard and getting
:29:49. > :29:52.a job and saving. We cannot accept a country, as she will be setting out
:29:53. > :29:58.tomorrow, where for the many people who suffer mental health there is
:29:59. > :30:02.still in too many places inadequate treatment but also a stigma that
:30:03. > :30:06.still goes along with that. I still don't see the difference between
:30:07. > :30:09.this and what David Cameron was talking about. I think the
:30:10. > :30:14.difference is the Prime Minister wants to set out how she feels the
:30:15. > :30:17.Government can be more front foot is to tackle these issues. Give me a
:30:18. > :30:22.really concrete example of what will change as a result of this. We have
:30:23. > :30:29.already set out in my own area of education that we want more good
:30:30. > :30:35.school places... I'm sorry but every government wants that. We've look at
:30:36. > :30:39.introducing more grammar schools, bringing more proposals around
:30:40. > :30:44.making sure our technical education system works for more than 50% of
:30:45. > :30:47.our young people who don't go to university in a way that it
:30:48. > :30:50.currently doesn't, and developing apprenticeships through the course
:30:51. > :30:55.of this Parliament. Tomorrow she will be setting out the first of a
:30:56. > :30:59.number of different areas, in this case mental-health, of where she
:31:00. > :31:02.does want the Government to be more involved in making sure that people
:31:03. > :31:07.get the kind of outcomes that they need to be successful. People can
:31:08. > :31:13.make their own minds up but there is an element of this saying we are
:31:14. > :31:16.going to build houses, that's the shared society, help people with
:31:17. > :31:20.mental health, that's the shared society, basically rebranding. What
:31:21. > :31:25.is it about the shared society that means we have the Red Cross talking
:31:26. > :31:29.about a humanitarian disaster in the NHS, calls for an extra ?700 million
:31:30. > :31:32.of emergency funding to get through the winter and a real problem in
:31:33. > :31:43.hospitals across the country? In my previous role, I saw a number
:31:44. > :31:47.of international crises, Typhoon Haiyan, Ebola, the Syria crisis, and
:31:48. > :31:51.I do not think it is appropriate to describe the challenges that the NHS
:31:52. > :31:57.faces this winter as a humanitarian crisis. So the Red Cross are wrong
:31:58. > :32:01.about this? I do not think it is appropriate to describe it as a
:32:02. > :32:06.humanitarian crisis. Coming back to your important question, we know the
:32:07. > :32:10.challenges that the NHS base, whether in terms of a rising and
:32:11. > :32:14.indeed ageing population, the fact that drugs cost more and can be used
:32:15. > :32:18.for more things, and of course we also know that at this time of year,
:32:19. > :32:24.in particular, there are additional pressures on the NHS. And they are
:32:25. > :32:28.really severe this year... We need a long-term plan, which is what Simon
:32:29. > :32:32.Stevens, the chief executive of the NHS, came through within 2015, we
:32:33. > :32:36.were the only party to back that plan. Indeed, we have given the
:32:37. > :32:43.money that was requested, we have brought it to be faster when it was
:32:44. > :32:46.requested, and specifically in relation to winter, we have put in
:32:47. > :32:49.?4 million of extra funding to particularly help with winter
:32:50. > :32:54.pressures. The NHS is indeed better prepared than it has been in the
:32:55. > :32:58.past. If you talk to any professionals, anywhere across the
:32:59. > :33:02.NHS, they say, we are in crisis, our hospitals are full to bursting, we
:33:03. > :33:05.are using the Red Cross to very people from hospitals in their land
:33:06. > :33:11.Rovers, this is a really serious crisis, people are dying on hospital
:33:12. > :33:14.trolleys. The NHS needs even more money this winter and the Prime
:33:15. > :33:19.Minister should come to the House of Commons to discuss this with MPs.
:33:20. > :33:24.More money has been made available, it is not unusual for the Red Cross,
:33:25. > :33:29.and indeed for St John's Ambulance, they help the NHS every single day,
:33:30. > :33:34.they do an amazing job. The fact that the Red Cross and organisations
:33:35. > :33:37.like St John's are involved is not particularly unusual, we have put
:33:38. > :33:41.aside additional money, and there is record investment going into the
:33:42. > :33:46.NHS. We have this terribly sterile debate where politicians say we have
:33:47. > :33:49.put in extra money, professionals on the front line say, we are in total
:33:50. > :33:55.crisis, and the public scratches its head. At some point you will have to
:33:56. > :33:59.give them more help. You talked about bed occupancy, and rates are
:34:00. > :34:07.slightly lower at this point this year than last year. There is a
:34:08. > :34:11.long-term challenge that the NHS faces, and this first plan is about
:34:12. > :34:15.tackling the more underlying issues. There are, of course, challenges at
:34:16. > :34:18.this time of year, which is why, alongside the funding I have talked
:34:19. > :34:22.about, there is better planning in place... Do you think the doctors,
:34:23. > :34:27.the professional bodies are simply crying wolf? No, NHS England has set
:34:28. > :34:31.out that we do need to be prepared with the winter challenges we have
:34:32. > :34:36.got, but overall we are dealing with those, and we will continue to make
:34:37. > :34:41.sure that we work as a government with the NHS to do our best as the
:34:42. > :34:44.winter progresses. I have been talking to Nicola Sturgeon, who says
:34:45. > :34:48.that unless Britain stays in the single market, then Scotland will
:34:49. > :34:53.have another independence referendum within just over two years or so,
:34:54. > :34:57.and she is not bluffing and it will happen. The think there is any
:34:58. > :35:02.chance of us at all staying in the single market? -- do you think. The
:35:03. > :35:05.Prime Minister will be setting out more about our plans on how we exit
:35:06. > :35:11.the European Union with a good deal for Britain. Ken Clarke said we need
:35:12. > :35:15.a proper plan by the end of January, do you agree with that? The Prime
:35:16. > :35:20.Minister is go to set out more of the details in her own time, she has
:35:21. > :35:24.worked through, with her Cabinet colleagues, methodically, the many,
:35:25. > :35:28.many areas that we need to have clear thinking in place for in
:35:29. > :35:32.relation to getting a strong negotiating proposal and plan in
:35:33. > :35:37.place to leave the EU. We are going to get on with that, she has been
:35:38. > :35:41.clear that we will be triggering Article 52 by the end of March, but
:35:42. > :35:46.it is right that we have taken the time to pull together what is going
:35:47. > :35:50.to be one of the most complicated negotiations that any country could
:35:51. > :35:54.have to embark on. Will we get an answer to the important questions
:35:55. > :35:59.like, will we be in the single market, the customs union, by the
:36:00. > :36:03.end of that period? I think the Prime Minister will take her own
:36:04. > :36:07.decision on how much she wants to disclose of the planning that is
:36:08. > :36:12.under way, but in the end, I think if you look back... It still feels
:36:13. > :36:16.as if we are being told absolutely nothing at all. And months after the
:36:17. > :36:21.referendum, look back at the challenges we faced within the EU.
:36:22. > :36:24.Many of those go back right to the very beginning, 40 years ago, when
:36:25. > :36:29.we went into the European Union, arguably an a deal that wasn't good
:36:30. > :36:36.enough for us. And we were left with a legacy decades after. I think it
:36:37. > :36:40.is quite right that we now take the time to make sure we know exactly
:36:41. > :36:43.what the deal is that you want to try and get for our country, and
:36:44. > :36:48.that we are well prepared to flexibly respond as the art of the
:36:49. > :36:51.deal emerges once the negotiation is under way. Sowetan Nicola Sturgeon
:36:52. > :36:56.says it would be catastrophic for Scotland and the UK to be outside
:36:57. > :37:01.the single market, and if it happens, we will leave the UK, do
:37:02. > :37:06.you think she is bluffing? It is pretty obvious to me that, in spite
:37:07. > :37:10.of the referendum result in Scotland, the SNP simply want to
:37:11. > :37:13.ignore that, they want to continue pushing the Scottish people against
:37:14. > :37:19.the decision that they voted to stay as part of the UK. I think that is
:37:20. > :37:24.wrong. So politically if that is because she wants to take, I do not
:37:25. > :37:27.think it will be a sensible one. In the meantime, we need to make sure
:37:28. > :37:34.that we have an approach on negotiating a fresh route for the UK
:37:35. > :37:38.outside of the European Union. Whatever that might be. That is in
:37:39. > :37:42.our national interest and can, critically, stand the test of time
:37:43. > :37:44.and make sure we are successful not just today but in the future. Thank
:37:45. > :37:46.you very much indeed. Joanna Scanlan has become
:37:47. > :37:48.one of the best known As the unsinkable Terri
:37:49. > :37:51.in The Thick of It, she was the perfect antidote
:37:52. > :37:54.to Malcolm Tucker's brutal cynicism. she brought humour and heartbreak
:37:55. > :37:58.to the NHS in Getting On. Her latest role sees
:37:59. > :38:00.her showing a new side. Channel 4's award-winning series
:38:01. > :38:02.No Offence has Scanlan as a gutsy
:38:03. > :38:04.police detective in a very contemporary
:38:05. > :38:12.new take on the TV cop. Inspector, may we speak
:38:13. > :38:14.in your office? Sorry?
:38:15. > :38:17.Here is good. Well, in the past we had the rack,
:38:18. > :38:25.and now we have the press. and now I'm invited upstairs
:38:26. > :38:28.to explain recent events. Yes, I'm aware of that, as are they,
:38:29. > :38:32.and the Home Office, and the Department for Communities
:38:33. > :38:34.and Local Government. They know what they
:38:35. > :38:36.call you upstairs? Because everything
:38:37. > :38:51.is a trial with you. It is beautifully written, Joanna,
:38:52. > :38:55.this is a very interesting series, one of many now, coming from the
:38:56. > :39:01.north, or set in the north, with very strong women in charge, I am
:39:02. > :39:05.thinking of Happy Valley and now this, something changing in British
:39:06. > :39:12.TV drama at the moment. What makes this different, I think, is that it
:39:13. > :39:16.goes right to the edge of what is seemingly unacceptable. It really
:39:17. > :39:22.does! That is unusual, I think. I know that is Channel 4's remit, but
:39:23. > :39:27.they really go there in this show. The fact that most of us working
:39:28. > :39:31.with female bosses, one way or the other, we are looking at a
:39:32. > :39:36.matriarchal management, and the ways in which power gets disseminated by
:39:37. > :39:40.women, and that is traditional in the north. It is an interesting
:39:41. > :39:43.picture of contemporary Britain, because almost all the key
:39:44. > :39:47.characters are women, almost all the strong characters are women. A few
:39:48. > :39:51.men dotted around the edges, but very much female dominated, and he
:39:52. > :39:56.would say the same about Happy Valley and so forth. Is this an
:39:57. > :40:00.attempt to show a new written, that men, including shows like this, and
:40:01. > :40:04.taking a back-seat?! It is a reality! There is an element in
:40:05. > :40:12.which we reflect reality, women any workplace, I mean, when we wrote
:40:13. > :40:14.Getting On, for example, we set it in a hospital not particularly
:40:15. > :40:18.because we wanted to talk about the NHS, but we wanted to talk about
:40:19. > :40:23.women, putting them in the workplace, and not the domestic
:40:24. > :40:26.sphere. That changes everything. It gives the actor and the writer a
:40:27. > :40:29.chance to look at how women deal differently, perhaps with power. The
:40:30. > :40:36.other character you are very well known for is Terri in The Thick Of
:40:37. > :40:40.It, where you have to deal with Malcolm Tucker all the time. We were
:40:41. > :40:43.just talking about Sir Ivan Rogers and the civil service, were you
:40:44. > :40:47.aware that you are dealing with a character who was meant to be
:40:48. > :40:55.apolitical? Is there anything we can learn from that? Terri was appointed
:40:56. > :40:58.into the civil service as part of what was a Blairite move to bring
:40:59. > :41:03.people from the commercial sector, so she had been head of marketing at
:41:04. > :41:06.Waitrose. Now, whether that served well or ill, I think the audience
:41:07. > :41:08.can say. We have a brief clip of it. You didn't even send that e-mail,
:41:09. > :41:11.it was still in drafts, OK? Then, secondly,
:41:12. > :41:13.it was you that told me, "Don't make that big
:41:14. > :41:15.attack on the BBC." And I'm afraid we did look silly,
:41:16. > :41:17.running around outside, I mean, I know Steve
:41:18. > :41:22.Fleming has come back on the scene, are you feeling
:41:23. > :41:24.emasculated by that? It's like you're
:41:25. > :41:27.a Catherine wheel that fell off the stick,
:41:28. > :41:33.but not in the right way! I think you're wrong, Malcolm.
:41:34. > :41:47.You're like a sultana in a salad. Again, it is all down to beautiful,
:41:48. > :41:52.beautiful writing. Now, I did read that when it came to No Offence, you
:41:53. > :41:57.turned the role down, and I can't see why, since you seem to be
:41:58. > :42:01.enjoying it so much. I have to say that I did not turn it down as an
:42:02. > :42:04.offer but as an audition. My agent kept saying, I think you should have
:42:05. > :42:08.a look at this. And I thought, I could not see myself in it, I
:42:09. > :42:13.thought the character was the most, as you just saw a little bit of, she
:42:14. > :42:17.is very powerful, very sort of strong. And I often played, before
:42:18. > :42:22.that, I was often playing characters that came up from underneath, Terri
:42:23. > :42:27.is a good example. And I just couldn't see how you could claim it.
:42:28. > :42:30.To be the top dog, as it were. You do it beautifully, it is really
:42:31. > :42:34.interesting, thank you for joining us.
:42:35. > :42:38.is on Channel 4 this Wednesday at 9pm.
:42:39. > :42:40.Now for news of what's coming up after this programme.
:42:41. > :42:48.I'm sorry, I came out too early! Join us at ten, when we will be
:42:49. > :42:51.asking, do some people earn too much? And with more strikes
:42:52. > :42:55.scheduled for this week, should industrial action only target the
:42:56. > :43:00.employers, not the customers? And if you could find three wise men today,
:43:01. > :43:05.would they still believe in God? While I still have you here, Nicola
:43:06. > :43:09.Sturgeon is my next guest, we are looking at a country which has women
:43:10. > :43:14.running Westminster, Scotland and elsewhere, DUP or, as an actor, that
:43:15. > :43:20.you are in a good place at the right time. -- do you feel. I am lucky, I
:43:21. > :43:25.started acting very late, 35 before I did my first professional job. And
:43:26. > :43:30.lots of ideas for shows before you got one accepted. I had written lots
:43:31. > :43:34.of things that went nowhere. 17 years of me hammering away at the
:43:35. > :43:39.typewriter before anybody said yes. And I think, you know, in theory,
:43:40. > :43:42.between 35 and 40, that would have been my career, and I am so lucky
:43:43. > :43:44.that the world has caught up with me, as it were. Long may it
:43:45. > :43:46.continue, Joanna! The First Minister of
:43:47. > :43:48.Scotland Nicola Sturgeon has a difficult balancing act
:43:49. > :43:49.to pull off. to keep Scotland in the single
:43:50. > :43:53.market after Brexit and continuing to pursue the SNP's
:43:54. > :43:55.ultimate goal of independence from the rest of
:43:56. > :43:57.the UK, which many in London now believe
:43:58. > :43:59.is all but impossible. First Minister, six months ago,
:44:00. > :44:06.sitting more or less right here, you were talking to Theresa May,
:44:07. > :44:08.and it seemed a very cordial first meeting
:44:09. > :44:12.after she became Prime Minister. I wondered, what's happened
:44:13. > :44:15.since then between the two of you? Well, we spoke on a few more
:44:16. > :44:18.occasions, met once more, I think, I have to say, though,
:44:19. > :44:23.to be perfectly frank, I don't feel that I know any more
:44:24. > :44:27.about her negotiating objectives today than I did six months ago,
:44:28. > :44:30.and probably what's more worrying than that, I'm not sure
:44:31. > :44:33.that she knows more about her negotiating objectives than she did
:44:34. > :44:36.back then as well, and I think the closer we get to
:44:37. > :44:42.the triggering of Article 50. Do you seriously think
:44:43. > :44:44.there is no plan? Yes, I do, and I say that with a lot
:44:45. > :44:49.of regret because that puts every part of the UK, I think,
:44:50. > :44:53.into a very powerless position. We saw last week, with
:44:54. > :44:56.the resignation of Sir Ivan Rogers, that he didn't know what the plan
:44:57. > :45:00.was, and he was supposedly the man who would lead the negotiations
:45:01. > :45:03.to try to achieve that plan. Now my worry is that Theresa May,
:45:04. > :45:06.instead of behaving like a Prime Minister should,
:45:07. > :45:12.is putting the leadership of her own deeply divided party
:45:13. > :45:16.ahead of her responsibilities as Prime Minister and trying
:45:17. > :45:18.to appease the increasingly right-wing Brexiteers
:45:19. > :45:22.in her own party, instead of prioritising what would be
:45:23. > :45:24.a sensible solution for the UK to stay in the single market,
:45:25. > :45:28.for example, and I think the interests of the country
:45:29. > :45:33.over these next few months At that meeting, she seemed
:45:34. > :45:37.to agree that Scotland, as Wales and Northern Ireland,
:45:38. > :45:41.would be part of the process of debating how we were
:45:42. > :45:43.going to leave the EU. Do you feel that simply
:45:44. > :45:45.hasn't happened? You know, there have
:45:46. > :45:52.been discussions. I took part, with the first
:45:53. > :45:54.ministers of Wales the Deputy First Minister
:45:55. > :45:56.of Northern Ireland, in Downing Street,
:45:57. > :45:58.I think in October, at a meeting
:45:59. > :46:03.of the joint ministerial committee. And I'm not exaggerating too much,
:46:04. > :46:05.I'm paraphrasing slightly, I admit, but I'm not exaggerating too much
:46:06. > :46:08.when I say that the Prime Minister sat on the other side of the table
:46:09. > :46:12.at that meeting and said, "Brexit means Brexit" and not
:46:13. > :46:14.an awful lot more than that, and I came out of that meeting
:46:15. > :46:17.probably more frustrated after a meeting of that nature
:46:18. > :46:21.than I've ever been before. Now, the reason for that is I'm
:46:22. > :46:30.the First Minister of Scotland and you know, put aside,
:46:31. > :46:32.although we shouldn't put aside the fact that Scotland voted
:46:33. > :46:35.to remain in the European Union. If the UK is coming out
:46:36. > :46:38.of the European Union, that has enormous implications
:46:39. > :46:40.for Scotland, as it does It has enormous implications
:46:41. > :46:44.for our economy, for jobs, for living standards,
:46:45. > :46:45.for trade, investment, for the kind of society we are,
:46:46. > :46:49.and I want to play my part in making sure we get the right
:46:50. > :46:51.outcome from that. That's why the Scottish Government
:46:52. > :46:53.has published proposals that we hope are taken seriously,
:46:54. > :46:55.but thus far, almost two thirds of the wait
:46:56. > :46:59.of the triggering of Article 50, we now no more about the UK
:47:00. > :47:02.Government's position than we did the day after the referendum
:47:03. > :47:04.and that is increasingly In those proposals, you've
:47:05. > :47:10.made it very clear that what you mean by a soft Brexit,
:47:11. > :47:14.an acceptable Brexit, involves staying inside the single market and
:47:15. > :47:17.staying inside the customs union. The problem is that people were told
:47:18. > :47:20.all the way through the referendum that leaving the EU meant
:47:21. > :47:22.leaving those things. I interviewed David Cameron,
:47:23. > :47:27.George Osborne, Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, I asked all of them
:47:28. > :47:30.and they all said, yes, I remember hearing, I could be
:47:31. > :47:35.proved wrong but I think Boris Johnson saying the only good
:47:36. > :47:40.thing about the European Union was what he called the Common
:47:41. > :47:42.Market, the single market, and leaving the EU didn't mean
:47:43. > :47:47.leaving the single market. But what I'm trying to do,
:47:48. > :47:50.and I've deliberately tried to take a step back from my preferred
:47:51. > :47:53.position which is the UK as a whole stays in the EU, and say, look,
:47:54. > :47:57.we've got the situation where the UK Different parts of the UK
:47:58. > :48:01.voted in different ways, Scotland voted to remain,
:48:02. > :48:03.even in Scotland a million people voted to leave,
:48:04. > :48:06.and although the UK as a whole voted to leave, almost half
:48:07. > :48:08.voted to remain so can That's why I think staying
:48:09. > :48:14.in the single market could be that consensus ground,
:48:15. > :48:20.but more importantly it would avoid some of the deep damage
:48:21. > :48:22.to our economy and our society that The problem with staying
:48:23. > :48:28.in the single market is that means no control over migration
:48:29. > :48:31.from the EU and it means carrying on paying into the single market,
:48:32. > :48:34.and that would be seen by a lot Let's break down these issues
:48:35. > :48:38.because the paper I've published on behalf of the Scottish Government
:48:39. > :48:41.just before Christmas goes Theresa May has said that a number
:48:42. > :48:45.of things are red lines, so not being subject to the jurisdiction
:48:46. > :48:48.of the ECJ. Well if you are, like Norway is,
:48:49. > :48:51.in the single market but not in the EU, then you are not subject
:48:52. > :48:54.to the direct jurisdiction of the ECJ, it is the EFTA
:48:55. > :48:57.Court that applies. I'm trying to see where she could,
:48:58. > :49:01.and this is about compromise... This is not my preferred solution
:49:02. > :49:05.so I recognise that it may not be her preferred solution but can
:49:06. > :49:07.we find compromised ground? I think we need to get
:49:08. > :49:10.away from the situation, and I make no apology for saying
:49:11. > :49:12.this, where this obsession with immigration, almost becoming
:49:13. > :49:15.an obsession with foreigners in this country, is trumping,
:49:16. > :49:17.if that's not the wrong word to use in these times,
:49:18. > :49:20.the best interest in the economy so I think we need a much more
:49:21. > :49:23.honest debate about the benefits I just put it to you,
:49:24. > :49:27.given the politics in London, it is very, very unlikely that
:49:28. > :49:30.Theresa May will say we are going to stay in the single
:49:31. > :49:38.market or the customs union. That compromise is probably unlikely
:49:39. > :49:40.and you yourself have said indy ref What I'm doing is trying
:49:41. > :49:44.to explore common ground, OK? I've said I think the UK should stay
:49:45. > :49:47.in the single market and I want to work with others
:49:48. > :49:50.across the UK, across the political spectrum to see if we can achieve
:49:51. > :49:54.that as the objective of the UK. If that can't happen,
:49:55. > :49:57.then recognising Scotland voted to stay in the EU by a significant
:49:58. > :50:00.majority, can we find a way of allowing Scotland to stay
:50:01. > :50:02.in the single market? But that surely is
:50:03. > :50:06.practically impossible? We, again, the paper we published
:50:07. > :50:09.sets out the practical barriers but also sets out the basis
:50:10. > :50:11.on which those practical So the paper you've published says,
:50:12. > :50:29.for instance, for that to happen, for Scotland to stay
:50:30. > :50:31.inside the single market while the rest of the UK is not
:50:32. > :50:34.would require the repatriation of important powers
:50:35. > :50:36.to the Scottish Parliament. Including immigration,
:50:37. > :50:39.but how was it possible for one part of the UK to have one immigration
:50:40. > :50:42.policy and England to have We had a group of MPs just the other
:50:43. > :50:47.day saying that we should move away from a one-size-fits-all immigration
:50:48. > :50:49.policy across the UK. You've got the Mayor
:50:50. > :50:51.of London arguing that London should have greater
:50:52. > :50:53.flexibility with immigration. You've got countries like Canada
:50:54. > :50:55.and Australia that already operate Scotland used to have a situation
:50:56. > :50:59.where we had a differential situation around post-study
:51:00. > :51:00.work arrangements. What I'm saying, and this
:51:01. > :51:02.is an important point, Andrew, everything about Brexit
:51:03. > :51:04.is going to be complicated I'm not denying the solution I'm
:51:05. > :51:08.putting forward would be complicated and difficult,
:51:09. > :51:10.but there are ways to overcome these difficulties because
:51:11. > :51:11.the alternative for Scotland... Let me just ask you about one way
:51:12. > :51:15.because if the people of England have just voted to "Take control
:51:16. > :51:17.over immigration from the EU" and Scotland has an open border
:51:18. > :51:21.to the rest of the EU in terms of migration, how can
:51:22. > :51:23.you possibly not have a border Otherwise people would just
:51:24. > :51:26.move down into England. The paper goes into this in some
:51:27. > :51:29.detail because firstly, and I will come onto that
:51:30. > :51:33.in the detail of it in a second, but let's not forget we have got
:51:34. > :51:35.a UK Government right now that is at pains to say
:51:36. > :51:38.to the Republic of Ireland, an independent country
:51:39. > :51:41.that is going to continue to be in the EU, that it doesn't have
:51:42. > :51:44.to choose between trading with the EU and trading with the UK,
:51:45. > :51:48.that it doesn't have to be a hard So if that is true for Ireland,
:51:49. > :51:52.there's no reason why that wouldn't But if you take the issue of free
:51:53. > :51:55.movement for example, people would continue
:51:56. > :51:57.to get their passports checked as they come into the UK
:51:58. > :52:00.at the external UK border and if the concern, as I appreciate,
:52:01. > :52:09.would they go to England and other parts of the UK
:52:10. > :52:12.and seek to work there, Theresa May is already talking
:52:13. > :52:14.about the arrangements that she's going to put in place in terms
:52:15. > :52:17.of employment checks and suchlike. There are practical ways
:52:18. > :52:19.of overcoming these things, but if we are going to get
:52:20. > :52:22.into the practical discussion about how these things can be
:52:23. > :52:25.overcome, we first have to have a UK Government that is going to meet
:52:26. > :52:27.the Scottish Government halfway I'm compromising, I'm
:52:28. > :52:30.prepared to compromise. I need to have a UK Government
:52:31. > :52:38.that is prepared to do likewise. This is a compromise which gives
:52:39. > :52:40.you, in effect, independence. The proposal we put forward wouldn't
:52:41. > :52:44.make Scotland independent. Yes, it would have significant
:52:45. > :52:47.additional powers for Scotland. I have to say, around some of these
:52:48. > :52:50.additional powers notwithstanding whether there would be a different
:52:51. > :52:52.single market solution for Scotland, there is already growing cross-party
:52:53. > :52:56.support that in the post-Brexit landscape there needs
:52:57. > :52:58.to be a fundamental look I think some of those arguments
:52:59. > :53:03.apply regardless of the position There is a fundamental question that
:53:04. > :53:12.arises here for Scotland. I lead a party that many
:53:13. > :53:15.of whom would want an independence I'm trying to act as
:53:16. > :53:25.First Minister to say but if we are in a position
:53:26. > :53:29.where I'm doing that but we have a Prime Minister
:53:30. > :53:32.of the UK Government that is saying no compromise, Scotland
:53:33. > :53:34.just have to, you know, shut up and like it or lump it,
:53:35. > :53:37.then the question for Scotland, and it's a much more fundamental
:53:38. > :53:40.question than the EU or Brexit, Are we happy to have no voice
:53:41. > :53:45.in the UK, to simply have to accept the direction of travel that
:53:46. > :53:47.an increasingly right-wing UK What do you say to those
:53:48. > :53:51.people across the UK who voted to leave the EU,
:53:52. > :53:54.who listen to you now and say, "she's just a wrecker,
:53:55. > :53:56.she's trying to overturn the Democratic vote
:53:57. > :53:58.of the entire UK"? Well, I'm not trying to do that
:53:59. > :54:01.but I would ask people to equally understand that I'm
:54:02. > :54:03.the First Minister of Scotland, Scotland is a country that is part
:54:04. > :54:07.of the UK right now but we voted to remain and I've got a duty,
:54:08. > :54:11.particularly given that this is not some academic debate,
:54:12. > :54:14.this is a debate that has real implications for jobs and living
:54:15. > :54:16.standards of people the length I've got an obligation to protect
:54:17. > :54:20.Scotland's interests and that's So I'm compromising,
:54:21. > :54:29.but at the end of the day while Scotland is driven over hard
:54:30. > :54:35.Brexit cliff edge with all the implications for jobs
:54:36. > :54:38.and the type of country we are You have said that if you get what's
:54:39. > :54:43.been called a soft Brexit, staying inside the single market,
:54:44. > :54:45.then a second independence referendum is off
:54:46. > :54:47.the agenda for a while. Let me explain exactly
:54:48. > :54:51.what I'm saying. The argument for independence
:54:52. > :54:53.doesn't go away in The argument for independence is
:54:54. > :54:57.much bigger than the European Union. What I've said, though,
:54:58. > :54:59.and I said this in this very room the day after the referendum,
:55:00. > :55:02.that I would seek to find ways within the UK, recognising
:55:03. > :55:04.the diversity of opinion on independence within Scotland,
:55:05. > :55:06.to seek to protect Scotland's If we can do that, the independence
:55:07. > :55:10.argument doesn't go away, but we don't need to have that
:55:11. > :55:12.decision within the Are we talking about
:55:13. > :55:18.this parliament? No independence referendum during
:55:19. > :55:21.the course of this Parliament? You're asking me what the timescale
:55:22. > :55:24.on Brexit is, I can't My assumption is that from the point
:55:25. > :55:34.at which Article 50 is triggered, we have a two-year period
:55:35. > :55:37.after which the UK is That may change,
:55:38. > :55:39.because I don't know So a soft Brexit means no
:55:40. > :55:43.independence referendum over In the timescale of Brexit, but I
:55:44. > :55:52.have tried from the 24th of June onwards to take a logical
:55:53. > :55:56.path through this. And, you know, at the moment
:55:57. > :56:08.we are the only government in the whole of the UK that
:56:09. > :56:11.has put forward a plan, Now, if that is going to get any
:56:12. > :56:15.legs behind it, it needs to have a UK Government
:56:16. > :56:18.that is willing to talk to us. Because if what I encounter
:56:19. > :56:21.with the Prime Minister the next time we sit in this room is,
:56:22. > :56:24.I'm not interested, then Scotland is in that position of, you know,
:56:25. > :56:27.we were told we were an equal partner in the UK, but the reality
:56:28. > :56:30.is very, very different. Well here is where we come down
:56:31. > :56:32.to the hard politics, because it seems to me that the view
:56:33. > :56:36.in London is that Nicola Sturgeon is trying to call our bluff,
:56:37. > :56:39.and we can call her bluff - she cannot win an independence
:56:40. > :56:41.referendum in Scotland because of the economics,
:56:42. > :56:43.because of the border issue, Well, they will be making a big
:56:44. > :56:48.mistake if they think that I'm in any way bluffing,
:56:49. > :56:51.because if it comes to the point, you know, two years after Scotland
:56:52. > :56:53.being told, the quote in the independence referendum was,
:56:54. > :56:55.Scotland, don't leave Here we are, we voted to stay
:56:56. > :57:00.in the EU, we were told that voting no was the only way we could stay
:57:01. > :57:03.in the EU, and we now face That creates a much more fundamental
:57:04. > :57:07.question for Scotland. On something as fundamentally
:57:08. > :57:13.important as membership of the EU and the single market, all
:57:14. > :57:16.the implications that has for us, if our voices are going to be
:57:17. > :57:19.completely cast aside, our interests cast aside,
:57:20. > :57:22.then that can happen on anything, and we have to ask ourselves
:57:23. > :57:24.in Scotland, are we happy to have the direction
:57:25. > :57:27.of our country, the kind of country that we want to be,
:57:28. > :57:29.determined by a right-wing Conservative government,
:57:30. > :57:31.perhaps for the next 20 years, or do we want to take
:57:32. > :57:34.control of our own future? And that is a case that,
:57:35. > :57:36.in those circumstances, I think it would be right
:57:37. > :57:38.for Scotland to have But we are not looking at indyref2,
:57:39. > :57:43.as it is called, in ten years' time Yes, if we are talking
:57:44. > :57:50.about hard Brexit. But let me not get away from this
:57:51. > :57:53.point, I am putting to Theresa May Theresa May is watching,
:57:54. > :57:57.one message to her very clearly, Don't disregard Scotland,
:57:58. > :58:00.because it's not acceptable to do so, you said during the independence
:58:01. > :58:02.referendum that Scotland was an equal partner in the UK -
:58:03. > :58:07.it's now time to prove that, and how you respond to the sensible
:58:08. > :58:11.compromise consensus proposals that the Scottish Government has put
:58:12. > :58:14.forward will tell as much, possibly everything we need to know,
:58:15. > :58:16.about whether Scotland really is an equal partner
:58:17. > :58:18.or whether that is just rhetoric. Nicola Sturgeon,
:58:19. > :58:21.thank you very much. That's all for today,
:58:22. > :58:24.thanks to all my guests. Next Sunday I'll be joined
:58:25. > :58:30.by the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, and the actor Timothy Spall.
:58:31. > :58:41.Bye for now.