29/01/2017

:00:00. > :00:00.So, what do you do when the President of the United States

:00:00. > :00:09.grabs you by the hand and starts to squeeze?

:00:10. > :00:11.You keep gamely smiling on,

:00:12. > :00:14.remembering your inner vicar's daughter.

:00:15. > :00:34.There may be quite a lot of brave smiling still to come.

:00:35. > :00:37.And with everybody arguing about Trump's latest act -

:00:38. > :00:40.a ban on millions of Muslims entering the US -

:00:41. > :00:42.I'm joined by Cabinet Minister David Gauke

:00:43. > :00:46.to talk about that and this week's Brexit votes in the Commons,

:00:47. > :00:48.subjects too for the Leader of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron

:00:49. > :00:53.in our latest 2017 leader's interview.

:00:54. > :00:56.And that Labour veteran, one-time leader Harriet Harman

:00:57. > :00:59.will be looking back at 30 years in politics.

:01:00. > :01:01.There's going to be a Labour rebellion this week,

:01:02. > :01:11.I'll also be joined by one of the men

:01:12. > :01:14.Donald Trump wants to ban from travelling to America.

:01:15. > :01:18.He was born in Iraq and yes, he's political.

:01:19. > :01:23.But as Theresa May may recall, he's also a Conservative MP.

:01:24. > :01:25.I've been talking to the actor Matthew McConaughey.

:01:26. > :01:28.You may remember him as a bit of a Hollywood hunk,

:01:29. > :01:31.but in his new film he looks appalling, playing, quite

:01:32. > :01:36.An international feel to our review of the news.

:01:37. > :01:40.I'm joined by former Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis,

:01:41. > :01:44.former British ambassador in Washington

:01:45. > :01:47.and to keep us all in order, Amanda Platell of the Daily Mail.

:01:48. > :01:51.All that after the news, read this morning by Ben Thompson.

:01:52. > :01:54.Downing Street has issued a statement saying Theresa May does

:01:55. > :01:58."not agree" with Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees

:01:59. > :02:01.and that she would study the impact on British citizens.

:02:02. > :02:05.The Prime Minister has faced criticism for not condemning the US

:02:06. > :02:08.President's actions during her trip to Turkey yesterday.

:02:09. > :02:12.President Trump has refused entry to citizens of seven mainly Muslim

:02:13. > :02:15.countries and suspended the US refugee programme for four months,

:02:16. > :02:25.Donald Trump says his ban on foreign nationals travelling to America

:02:26. > :02:27.from seven Muslim countries is, in his words,

:02:28. > :02:33.But the order has provoked protests at airports across the country.

:02:34. > :02:37.Inside, lawyers worked to free passengers being detained.

:02:38. > :02:41.Some were already on their way in when the president made the order.

:02:42. > :02:45.a 60-year-old Iranian-American broke down after learning his brother,

:02:46. > :02:51.who'd come to visit him, wasn't going to be allowed in.

:02:52. > :02:57.In Iran, they do something like this,

:02:58. > :03:00.but we didn't know we're going to have the same situation here.

:03:01. > :03:08.And my brother didn't do nothing wrong, no prison.

:03:09. > :03:20.On the election trail, Donald Trump suggested what he said

:03:21. > :03:23.of Muslims entering the United States.

:03:24. > :03:25.He denies the measures he has now brought in,

:03:26. > :03:27.which include suspending the entire refugee programme,

:03:28. > :03:31.It's working out very nicely, and we're going to have a very,

:03:32. > :03:33.very strict ban and we're going to have extreme vetting,

:03:34. > :03:36.which we should have had in this country for many years.

:03:37. > :03:38.But campaigners have already launched a series of legal actions

:03:39. > :03:42.to block his plans and a judge has now temporarily halted

:03:43. > :03:44.moves to deport people travelling with visas

:03:45. > :03:48.With immigration central to Donald Trump's campaign

:03:49. > :03:58.Living standards are likely to fall this year, according to a report

:03:59. > :04:06.The think tank claims a mini-boom between 2014 and 2016 has now ended.

:04:07. > :04:09.The organisation warns that household incomes are now growing

:04:10. > :04:13.at their slowest rate since 2013 because of rising inflation

:04:14. > :04:20.French voters will choose today who is to be the socialist candidate

:04:21. > :04:24.Benoit Hamon - who was sacked from the government in 2014 -

:04:25. > :04:28.won the first round of the selection process.

:04:29. > :04:31.He's seen as a left wing rebel and he faces the former prime

:04:32. > :04:38.Wildfires in Chile have killed at least 11 people and left

:04:39. > :04:42.Firefighters and volunteers have been tackling more than a hundred

:04:43. > :04:45.separate fires in southern and central Chile, half

:04:46. > :04:53.Police have detained more than 20 people suspected of arson.

:04:54. > :04:55.Princes William and Harry have announced plans to put up

:04:56. > :04:58.a new statue of their mother, Diana, Princess of Wales,

:04:59. > :05:04.The princes said the monument would mark her "positive impact"

:05:05. > :05:12.They said they would help pay for the statue, which will be placed

:05:13. > :05:15.in the grounds of her former home of Kensington Palace.

:05:16. > :05:19.I'll be back with the headlines just before ten o'clock.

:05:20. > :05:32.The atmosphere in the Observer newsroom is reaching boiling point.

:05:33. > :05:35.We catch the week, they are taking their editorials and putting them in

:05:36. > :05:39.big type on the front page. Here is this week's. Trump cannot be trusted

:05:40. > :05:43.- he is like nothing that has gone before. He is ignorant, prejudiced

:05:44. > :05:53.and vicious in ways that no American leader has been. We know what they

:05:54. > :05:57.think. And they have caught Theresa May's overnight statement, saying

:05:58. > :06:01.she does not agree with the ban on migrants. Lots of tabloids are going

:06:02. > :06:04.on the Diana story, perhaps in relief at something lighter to go

:06:05. > :06:08.on. The Sunday Telegraph has interestingly put the camper van at

:06:09. > :06:12.the bottom of the front page, rather unimpressed by it. A beautiful

:06:13. > :06:15.photograph of Sir John Hurt and a story about the Troubles inquiry.

:06:16. > :06:19.The Sunday Times has a different Trump story. They say Trump and

:06:20. > :06:23.Prince Charles are in a climate row. When President Trump comes to the

:06:24. > :06:26.UK, he doesn't want to meet Prince Charles because he doesn't want to

:06:27. > :06:30.be lectured about climate change, it says. They are also following up

:06:31. > :06:34.their Trident story from last week. There is also a story about the

:06:35. > :06:38.transgender lobby getting their way in the NHS so that we can't call

:06:39. > :06:42.pregnant patients mothers any more, it claims. We will talk about that

:06:43. > :06:46.and much more. First of all, Sir Christopher Wren, a man who has seen

:06:47. > :06:50.the Anglo-American relationship up close -- Sir Christopher Meyer. What

:06:51. > :06:55.do you make of the coverage and would you make of Theresa May's

:06:56. > :06:58.demeanour? The coverage has been good for her. If I was in Downing

:06:59. > :07:02.Street, I would be pleased with the way the story has been written up.

:07:03. > :07:06.She had a very narrow tightrope to walk to make this visit successful

:07:07. > :07:12.to Washington, and she walked it pretty well. She was able to invest

:07:13. > :07:18.some new substance into the schmaltzy concept of a special

:07:19. > :07:25.relationship. She got warm words on trade and the special relationship

:07:26. > :07:28.and on Nato. Nato was a big win. To have Donald Trump said he was 100%

:07:29. > :07:38.behind the organisation means it is less toxic about trying to improve

:07:39. > :07:45.relationships with Putin. Trump was being nasty about Nato, but nice

:07:46. > :07:49.about Putin. The Sunday Times also gives Theresa May some good

:07:50. > :07:57.coverage, in your view. It gives her very good coverage indeed. It thinks

:07:58. > :08:01.she has been extremely clever not only in the way she dealt with

:08:02. > :08:03.Trump, but in her speech to the Republican convention the night

:08:04. > :08:07.before, which led out her prospectus, a lot of which was

:08:08. > :08:11.critical of Trump. And you have the New York Times on your iPad, I will

:08:12. > :08:13.let you hunt for that. They have picked up the overnight story about

:08:14. > :08:19.Theresa May saying she is against this ban on Muslim countries. This

:08:20. > :08:23.shows that if you are Theresa May, you have to realise you will get

:08:24. > :08:27.surprises out of Donald Trump. You may think the fix is in during your

:08:28. > :08:32.visit, but then when you are in Turkey, up comes this thing. She was

:08:33. > :08:37.slightly caught off guard. Amanda, you have a splash in the Mail on

:08:38. > :08:41.Sunday. Yes, some months ago, when Brexit happened, if you had told me

:08:42. > :08:44.that Prime Minister Theresa May would be having her hand squeezed by

:08:45. > :08:48.President Donald Trump, I would have said you are barking, and there it

:08:49. > :08:56.is for us all to see. Most extraordinary. It surprised a lot of

:08:57. > :08:59.people who didn't think she had it in her. She has extraordinary

:09:00. > :09:15.support. And this is a new word for us. It is a very apt term for one of

:09:16. > :09:20.his ailments, bathmophobia. It comes from the Greek word for gradient. He

:09:21. > :09:27.has a fear of gradualism. This is extremely apt for this man. Fear of

:09:28. > :09:33.going downstairs All Blacks? Fear of slopes. This is relevant because

:09:34. > :09:38.this is allegedly why he grabbed Theresa May by the hand. He wanted

:09:39. > :09:41.help going down the stairs. Here's a bit too tactile. My fear is that

:09:42. > :09:48.when he comes for the royal visit, you will grab the Queen's hand. My

:09:49. > :09:52.lord, what will happen then? But all the Queen has to do is avoid

:09:53. > :09:57.staircases and gradients. I don't know which is better. Does he grabs

:09:58. > :10:01.Theresa May out of affection, or does he grab her because he fears he

:10:02. > :10:13.is going to fall over? The latter is better. It is too intimate. They are

:10:14. > :10:19.like lovers. Too many hands. Let's move on. Would the papers managed to

:10:20. > :10:25.get the Theresa May overnight statement? The only one I saw was

:10:26. > :10:32.the Observer. But going back to what you were saying about the support

:10:33. > :10:35.from the papers. Tony Parsons, famous columnist, lifelong Labour

:10:36. > :10:40.supporter, he has done his whole column in the Sun saying we should

:10:41. > :10:46.all be glad that Trump is in the White House. It is very supportive.

:10:47. > :10:49.It is saying we have to do deals with this man. I would never have

:10:50. > :10:56.expected that. Even more astonishing is that the Labour supporting Sunday

:10:57. > :11:02.Mirror says of Theresa May, the date went well. She is on a roll. We all

:11:03. > :11:06.saw that awkward moment in the Turkish press conference where she

:11:07. > :11:10.was asked three times whether she supported Muslim bands. She's so

:11:11. > :11:16.cautious. You have interviewed her. Her default position is caution. The

:11:17. > :11:25.statement overnight said she did not support the ban. But it was very

:11:26. > :11:29.calmly and quietly expressed. And of course, Yanis, all of these

:11:30. > :11:35.negotiations are about hard business deals. You have taken a story from

:11:36. > :11:38.the Observer about the ?100 million fighter jet deal. The Turks are

:11:39. > :11:43.going to build their own fighter jets, but they will be made in the

:11:44. > :11:47.UK. The most astonishing part about this is the very low price. 100

:11:48. > :11:55.million is nothing. To sell your soul to the devil, sell it at a good

:11:56. > :12:00.price. Do you regard Erdogan as the devil? I regard the Turkish regime

:12:01. > :12:05.to be increasingly nasty. The fact that you have special police forces

:12:06. > :12:10.entering the editorial offices of newspapers, and driving journalists

:12:11. > :12:13.out at gunpoint to change the headlines for the next morning, is

:12:14. > :12:19.something you should be worried about. It is not usual that people

:12:20. > :12:24.are concerned about journalists, so that is nice to hear. If we allow

:12:25. > :12:29.something like this to happen while business proceeds as if as usual,

:12:30. > :12:33.then we are all going to be doing a great deal of harm to our own

:12:34. > :12:37.societies. A question for you all. It has been said that after Brexit,

:12:38. > :12:41.Britain so badly needs to do deals with other countries around the

:12:42. > :12:44.world that we can no longer speak plainly, we have to be a bit

:12:45. > :12:47.mealy-mouthed when it comes to people like Donald Trump or

:12:48. > :12:55.President Erdogan, or the Saudis and the Chinese. Is there anything in

:12:56. > :13:05.this? There is a cartoon to that effect. The cartoon is brilliant.

:13:06. > :13:08.Theresa May is typically taking an extremely pragmatic transactional

:13:09. > :13:12.attitude towards British foreign policy. There are things we need to

:13:13. > :13:16.do, and we cannot afford the luxury of interfering in other people's

:13:17. > :13:20.internal affairs by stating whether we approve or disapprove on human

:13:21. > :13:23.rights grounds or ethical grounds on things they are doing. She has said

:13:24. > :13:29.she disagrees with what Donald Trump is doing. But more particularly,

:13:30. > :13:34.given that Nadhim Zahawi is coming on later, she has said that where

:13:35. > :13:42.British dual nationals are accepted by -- affected by this, Britain will

:13:43. > :13:48.stand up for them. Yanis, you have also picked up the Labour rebellion

:13:49. > :13:52.this week in the Observer. We have the Article 50 legislation required

:13:53. > :13:58.now in the House of Commons, and Labour MPs are trying to amend it,

:13:59. > :14:01.some of them to stop us triggering article 50. For the benefit of full

:14:02. > :14:07.disclosure, I campaigned in this country against Brexit. But having

:14:08. > :14:12.said that, article 15 must be supported by anyone who believes in

:14:13. > :14:17.democracy. -- article 50. We fought this referendum and lost and we have

:14:18. > :14:26.to accept it. The focus now has to fall on the interim agreement. If

:14:27. > :14:28.Labour MPs are serious about maintaining the essence that is

:14:29. > :14:31.significant regarding the relationship between this country

:14:32. > :14:34.and the European Union, this is what they should focus on, not the

:14:35. > :14:40.triggering of article 50. How can you say to the people in northern

:14:41. > :14:44.England, you voted, and we are going to do to you what Brussels did to

:14:45. > :14:47.the Irish? Remember, with the Lisbon Treaty, the Irish voted against and

:14:48. > :14:55.that they were asked to vote once more until they got it right. They

:14:56. > :14:59.should be focusing on the fact that there is no mandate from the

:15:00. > :15:02.referendum for ending freedom of movement, for ending the customs

:15:03. > :15:07.union. This is all stuff that should be discussed. There was an implied

:15:08. > :15:14.mandate. This is your view, but the Labour side should argue against it.

:15:15. > :15:20.The strongest argument for Brexit from where I am sitting is restoring

:15:21. > :15:26.national sovereignty to the House of Commons. Well, restore it. Say that

:15:27. > :15:29.the next House of Commons which will be fought in an election that will

:15:30. > :15:32.give a mandate to numbers of Parliament to have this discussion

:15:33. > :15:36.will decide what the interim agreement will be, or what comes

:15:37. > :15:39.after it. But to say that the 23rd of June has already settled the

:15:40. > :15:45.issue, that freedom of movement is no longer an issue, that it has been

:15:46. > :15:47.settled, that is something that does not lose out of the 23rd of June

:15:48. > :15:59.edition. I don't think Theresa May is in any

:16:00. > :16:03.hurry to have a snap election. Tom Watson. This is extraordinary, we

:16:04. > :16:08.have seen two more Shadow Cabinet members resign at the weekend and

:16:09. > :16:13.Tom Watson is saying, don't worry, if you resign from the shadow job we

:16:14. > :16:17.will have you back in a few months' time and it is just extraordinary.

:16:18. > :16:21.You are a rebel with a cause, then when you don't have the course you

:16:22. > :16:27.come straight back in again but that's because they have so few

:16:28. > :16:30.people in the Shadow Cabinet anyway. Another big story, Jackie Kennedy in

:16:31. > :16:36.the Telegraph, everybody will be watching this film over the next few

:16:37. > :16:40.weeks. It is a sweet story, coinciding with the film Jackie,

:16:41. > :16:44.which reveals that after the assassination of JFK, his widow

:16:45. > :16:51.Jackie Kennedy decided that she would not accept the offer of

:16:52. > :16:59.marriage by the then British ambassador, and she wrote him a very

:17:00. > :17:03.sweet but slightly mysterious card in response to this offer of

:17:04. > :17:08.marriage, saying, "I wish I could give you the most precious thing

:17:09. > :17:11.that belonged to him, as precious as your friendship was to him nothing

:17:12. > :17:26.tangible could ever expressed that so please access this with all of my

:17:27. > :17:32.love." That was the bulk of poems. It is very suspicious. I've never

:17:33. > :17:39.got any kind of message like that from the White House. Amanda, we

:17:40. > :17:45.have to keep cracking on but there is the other story of the Diana

:17:46. > :17:52.statue. All of the tabloids, almost, have this across the front page,

:17:53. > :17:58.with photographs. It is a big year for William and Harry of course.

:17:59. > :18:01.Yes, and it appears they will get highly involved in celebrating the

:18:02. > :18:10.anniversary of her death. For those who liked, loved or respected Diana,

:18:11. > :18:13.there is an old train in Hyde Park which was disclosed to and a

:18:14. > :18:22.disservice to her memory and I'm glad they are doing it. Yanis, you

:18:23. > :18:33.have disposed of your monarchy. We sent them to you. And Prince Charles

:18:34. > :18:44.will give them a lecture on climate change, if they come over. This is

:18:45. > :18:47.perhaps the most significant topic, and would be a major blow to

:18:48. > :18:50.humanity's prospects. So, who does Donald Trump

:18:51. > :18:53.really want to keep out of America with this new ban,

:18:54. > :18:55.already being challenged Well, one example is my next guest,

:18:56. > :19:00.Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi, who has made his anger and upset

:19:01. > :19:14.clear on social media overnight. First of all, why are you banned

:19:15. > :19:18.from America as you understand it? Because as the order says, aliens

:19:19. > :19:23.from this country include people whose country of origin would have

:19:24. > :19:28.been Iraq, as is mine. I was born in Baghdad. Last year when the visa for

:19:29. > :19:32.free travel was taken away from dual nationals the advice on the US

:19:33. > :19:37.embassy was to go for an interview so my wife and I both had to go. It

:19:38. > :19:42.was uncomfortable but understandable because clearly the United States

:19:43. > :19:47.needed to tighten up its immigration policy and of course visa

:19:48. > :19:54.restrictions as part of that. I was granted a ten year visa after the

:19:55. > :20:01.interview, as was my wife, and our sons are university in America so we

:20:02. > :20:06.need to travel there by -- quite a bit. How does it make you feel that

:20:07. > :20:11.Donald Trump doesn't want you in America? I don't think I have felt

:20:12. > :20:15.as discriminated as when I was in little school. For the first time in

:20:16. > :20:21.my life last night I felt discriminated against, it is

:20:22. > :20:27.demeaning, it is sad. One of my sons had a life-threatening illness last

:20:28. > :20:30.year, spent two months in hospital in Princeton University Hospital but

:20:31. > :20:35.we couldn't have travelled if we were going through the same thing

:20:36. > :20:41.now. There are many other human stories that we have been hearing

:20:42. > :20:46.about from the community in the UK, and thereafter thousands of people

:20:47. > :20:52.who were born in Iraq, either Kurdish or are or any other ethnic

:20:53. > :21:00.group, who are now British citizens. We are equal as British citizens,

:21:01. > :21:06.and I'm proud that Stratford maven voted in Nadhim Zahawi as a member

:21:07. > :21:11.of Parliament. And your passport says that Her Majesty 's government

:21:12. > :21:19.will look after us abroad, as does mine, so it is down to the British

:21:20. > :21:26.government to fight on behalf of British citizens? I'm reassured by

:21:27. > :21:33.Theresa May's statement because she clearly says she will make a

:21:34. > :21:36.representation on behalf of every citizen. I am a politician, it is

:21:37. > :21:43.the people who don't have the platform that I have who could get

:21:44. > :21:46.stuck in an airport for hours with no for their own. They should be

:21:47. > :21:50.looked after. You made your displeasure clear, tweeting a

:21:51. > :21:57.wonderful quote of Winston Churchill. An appeaser is one who

:21:58. > :22:03.feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. You talking about?

:22:04. > :22:08.Anyone who turns the other way. I don't think we should look away when

:22:09. > :22:12.President Trump makes a mistake. Theresa May made it very clear in

:22:13. > :22:17.that brilliant speech to Congress, when she talked about going after

:22:18. > :22:24.the ideology of Daesh, not just on the battlefield but the ideology.

:22:25. > :22:30.This plays into the ideology. It is counter-productive. It flings petrol

:22:31. > :22:34.on the fire. Think about the refugees, put aside my position but

:22:35. > :22:39.the refugees from Syria and elsewhere. America has been the

:22:40. > :22:43.cradle of humanity and care and freedom for them in the past. The

:22:44. > :22:50.message to them today is you are not welcome and that is cruel. You must

:22:51. > :22:53.have watched the press conference in Turkey where Theresa May was asked

:22:54. > :22:59.three times she condemned the American decision and she didn't

:23:00. > :23:03.reply, how did that make you feel? My Prime Minister quite rightly was

:23:04. > :23:07.being cautious. It was developing story. I didn't know any details

:23:08. > :23:16.until late yesterday that this would apply to myself and my wife. I think

:23:17. > :23:22.her being careful is a good thing, but she was also very candid with

:23:23. > :23:24.President Trump. She spoke very candidly and clearly in that speech

:23:25. > :23:31.to both houses when she talked about us making this an opportunity to

:23:32. > :23:36.lead the world. Dare I say even President Trump can think again on

:23:37. > :23:41.this. At the moment he is due to come to this country and address

:23:42. > :23:46.both Houses of Parliament, including yourself. Do you think Parliament

:23:47. > :23:50.should think again on that? I'm hoping he will reconsider this

:23:51. > :23:56.position, it is hugely discriminatory. US law doesn't allow

:23:57. > :24:00.for discrimination by nationality or religion so I hope you will

:24:01. > :24:05.reconsider this, and it is counter-productive in the fight

:24:06. > :24:08.against Daesh. I hope you will reconsider. Thank you for coming to

:24:09. > :24:10.talk to us today. Absolutely nothing positive

:24:11. > :24:13.to say about it this week. This is surely

:24:14. > :24:16.the nadir of the year. Things can only get

:24:17. > :24:18.better...they better had. Chris Fawkes is in

:24:19. > :24:26.the weather studio. The important thing to remember is I

:24:27. > :24:32.am not to blame. Some have had a glorious start to the day, this was

:24:33. > :24:38.the scene in Aberdeenshire, showing the sunrise a little over an hour

:24:39. > :24:42.ago. For many, it is a drive morning. We have rain coming into

:24:43. > :24:47.southern Wales and south-west England but there is uncertainty how

:24:48. > :24:51.far north it will spread. Across the north east Midlands, East Anglia,

:24:52. > :24:56.the rain perhaps not arriving here until after dark. Those clear skies

:24:57. > :25:00.overnight will allow temperatures to get away with the risk of ice

:25:01. > :25:06.returning. The northern England and Wales a lot of cloud, drizzle, mist

:25:07. > :25:12.and hill fog patches, and with those murky conditions it is mild in

:25:13. > :25:19.Plymouth with frozen conditions again in the north. We are looking

:25:20. > :25:24.at a gloomy picture for tomorrow, patchy rain working into Wales and

:25:25. > :25:28.south-west England as we go through Monday afternoon. The best of any

:25:29. > :25:32.sunshine across Scotland and north-east England, and that sets

:25:33. > :25:35.the scene for what will be quite an unsettled week of weather. Low

:25:36. > :25:42.pressure is in charge, bringing spells of rain, becoming windy

:25:43. > :25:48.intentionally with severe gales, but often it will be on the mild side.

:25:49. > :25:51.With that, it is back to you, Andrew.

:25:52. > :25:53.If you are not to blame, I guess the deity is.

:25:54. > :25:55.My next guest has been at the heart of Labour politics

:25:56. > :25:59.The ecstatic highs and the crashing lows, triumphs and disasters,

:26:00. > :26:03.Harriet Harman - an MP since 1982 and a former Cabinet minister

:26:04. > :26:07.She's best known, perhaps, for her passionate commitment

:26:08. > :26:13.She's about to publish her political memoir, A Woman's Work,

:26:14. > :26:22.Speaking of women at work, what did you make of Theresa May and the

:26:23. > :26:25.delicate line she had to tread in Washington, cosying up to Donald but

:26:26. > :26:29.also keeping their distance from him? It was important as a British

:26:30. > :26:33.Prime Minister that she was over there to meet the new president but

:26:34. > :26:38.I was apprehensive because we know that Donald Trump is misogynist,

:26:39. > :26:43.xenophobic, he stands against so many of what I think we now regard

:26:44. > :26:48.as British values so I was very dismayed when I saw her holding his

:26:49. > :26:52.hand. There is a special relationship but she has got to be

:26:53. > :26:57.strong in that relationship, not led by him, and of course I was

:26:58. > :27:03.horrified when he announced this ban on people from Muslim countries.

:27:04. > :27:10.Three times, she said, it is nothing to do with me. It is to do with us,

:27:11. > :27:14.as we all know. She obviously has to be careful as Prime Minister but she

:27:15. > :27:18.needs to be strong as well. I was really disappointed, I hope she has

:27:19. > :27:23.learned some lessons. She has said overnight that she is against this

:27:24. > :27:27.policy. But she has got to learn that she has got to stand up for

:27:28. > :27:30.things and not be cautious and come out against something when she is

:27:31. > :27:34.pushed. The problem is that because we are in a vulnerable position

:27:35. > :27:39.economically, looking free trade deals with other countries, that

:27:40. > :27:44.must not make her feel weak. She has still got to be politically strong

:27:45. > :27:48.despite the fact we are in a moment of economic vulnerability. It is a

:27:49. > :27:53.difficult tightrope to walk because we do need these deals. Basically

:27:54. > :27:57.she can rethink what I regard as a reckless distancing our economy from

:27:58. > :28:02.the economies of Europe and she needs to rethink that because of

:28:03. > :28:06.Donald Trump's protectionism. Let's talk about your book, A Woman's

:28:07. > :28:12.Work, and you charge your story going forward, in the early years

:28:13. > :28:15.you experienced some gross sexism, some dreadful moments. There's been

:28:16. > :28:20.headlines about a story that happened to you as a young student

:28:21. > :28:33.at York University. What happened? I was called in by my tutor, and he

:28:34. > :28:43.said, you are borderline 2:1, 2:2, but it will be a 2:2 unless you have

:28:44. > :28:47.sex with me. I was horrified and I ran off. The idea that men in

:28:48. > :28:54.positions of authority who can actually shape your future life can

:28:55. > :28:57.actually abuse their power for sex and that I didn't even say anything

:28:58. > :29:01.to anybody about it because I thought nobody would listen to what

:29:02. > :29:06.I said, that he would deny it, they would take his side, he was in a

:29:07. > :29:11.position of authority. That was par for the course then, and that is

:29:12. > :29:16.still a battle we have got to fight now. He is now dead, his widow is

:29:17. > :29:19.dubious about this and says she doesn't believe it could happen and

:29:20. > :29:26.so forth. I haven't said anything about it until now because it was

:29:27. > :29:32.horrible, and I was risking... I had earned that level of Mark, why

:29:33. > :29:36.should I be downgraded if I didn't... It was a threat. I said it

:29:37. > :29:41.happened now, having not said anything about it before, because I

:29:42. > :29:44.think we need to look at how we make sure those people who are put in

:29:45. > :29:49.that position feel able to complain and those who do that are held to

:29:50. > :29:56.account so I'm telling you, it happened. The idea that somehow I

:29:57. > :29:59.would invent it, why would I? Let's move further forward. You talk about

:30:00. > :30:09.the early years in the House of Commons, a very macho, beery late

:30:10. > :30:12.night atmosphere. You fight your way up, become Secretary of State and

:30:13. > :30:17.then comes the pivotal moment in your career, you stand for election

:30:18. > :30:20.as deputy leader and slightly to your surprise you become deputy

:30:21. > :30:25.leader. You think it is a great triumph, then you walk off the

:30:26. > :30:30.podium and meet the former leader, John Prescott, what happens next? I

:30:31. > :30:36.said to him as I was walking onto the stage to be pronounced as deputy

:30:37. > :30:41.leader, I hope I can count on your advice and your help as I become

:30:42. > :30:46.deputy leader. He had been deputy leader himself for ten years. He

:30:47. > :30:53.said, no, I won't help you. That is a pity but what it was... You have

:30:54. > :30:56.been elected deputy leader over Alan Johnson, the nearest rival, and all

:30:57. > :31:00.previous deputy leaders would become Deputy Prime Minister, and Gordon

:31:01. > :31:06.Brown didn't make you Deputy Prime Minister, why do you think that was?

:31:07. > :31:13.He should have done. And looking back, I should have made him,

:31:14. > :31:16.because it is important for a party of equality which had never had a

:31:17. > :31:20.woman Prime Minister to at least have a woman Deputy Prime Minister.

:31:21. > :31:24.But the story in my book is my story, but it is also the story of

:31:25. > :31:27.the whole of the women's movement, the irresistible force of the

:31:28. > :31:34.women's movement reaching the immovable object of power, and we

:31:35. > :31:38.did make changes. And you say in the same period, you were pushed to the

:31:39. > :31:41.end of the Cabinet table, that attempt to push women to one side

:31:42. > :31:45.still going on at the top of the Labour Party, even after you had had

:31:46. > :31:50.your success being elected there. Do you think there is still residual

:31:51. > :31:54.sexism across all parties at the top? I think there is. We have made

:31:55. > :31:58.great progress with 100 Labour women MPs that changed the face of

:31:59. > :32:03.politics, which changed Parliament and government. But there was still

:32:04. > :32:06.a struggle, as there is now. We shouldn't be complacent, because

:32:07. > :32:09.there is a backlash and there are those who never agreed with the

:32:10. > :32:13.progress we have made and who wants to turn the clock back. And that

:32:14. > :32:16.kind of virus of misogyny that is coming from the States with Trump,

:32:17. > :32:20.we have to stand up against that. We have further to go before we are

:32:21. > :32:26.truly equal. The last thing we want is to be pushed back. We have some

:32:27. > :32:33.very outspoken female Conservative MPs from your part of the country,

:32:34. > :32:40.saying they are not going to - or other Labour MPs, like tulips are

:32:41. > :32:45.Dick and others, saying they will not vote for article 50. Much to my

:32:46. > :32:50.regret, I fought hard for us to remain. But we lost the referendum

:32:51. > :32:55.and the important thing is to accept that and to move on and to argue

:32:56. > :33:00.about the terms on which we go forward. This is a dangerous moment

:33:01. > :33:04.in terms of the negotiations and we need to make sure we have is close

:33:05. > :33:07.ties as possible with Europe and don't cut ourselves off

:33:08. > :33:13.economically. So you would say to Labour MPs from strongly pro-Remain

:33:14. > :33:16.constituencies, hold your nose and vote to trigger article 50, whatever

:33:17. > :33:22.you think, because that is the democratic thing to do? I would say,

:33:23. > :33:26.accept that result. When you are in opposition, very often, there are

:33:27. > :33:30.only bad choices and it is one of those situations. My constituency

:33:31. > :33:33.voted to remain, but actually, I think they recognise that we lost

:33:34. > :33:37.that vote in June. We now need to make the best of the situation we

:33:38. > :33:43.are in and that means voting for article 50, but then try to make

:33:44. > :33:44.sure the terms are as least worst as possible. Harriet Harman, thanks for

:33:45. > :33:46.coming in to talk to us. Now with news of what's coming up

:33:47. > :33:57.straight after this programme, Join us at ten in Glasgow, when we

:33:58. > :34:00.will be asking if Scotland is still owed a say over Brexit. Then

:34:01. > :34:04.universal basic income - should we all get money from the state? And in

:34:05. > :34:07.this city which profited from the slave trade, should today's

:34:08. > :34:10.generation make amends for its past? See you at ten on BBC One.

:34:11. > :34:12.A little after midnight this morning, a modest,

:34:13. > :34:14.almost apologetic message popped into the inbox of almost everyone

:34:15. > :34:19.It came from Number Ten and said what the Prime Minister wasn't able

:34:20. > :34:21.to say in public yesterday, that the British Government

:34:22. > :34:24.does not agree with Donald Trump's travel ban.

:34:25. > :34:32.David Gauke is Chief Secretary to the Treasury.

:34:33. > :34:40.The Prime Minister said it was wrong. Why is it wrong? Well, it is

:34:41. > :34:46.divisive. Theresa May, when she was Home Secretary, said this when the

:34:47. > :34:49.policy was announced by candidate Trump, that it is divisive. There

:34:50. > :34:54.are all sorts of practical difficulties with it. I have

:34:55. > :34:59.enormous sympathy with those who are affected by it. And obviously, there

:35:00. > :35:02.is a particular concern as Nadhim Zahawi was pointing out, to have

:35:03. > :35:07.emerged over the course of yesterday with the implications it may have

:35:08. > :35:11.for British nationals. He also said that this would pour petrol on the

:35:12. > :35:16.flames of Muslim extremism and have exactly the opposite result to what

:35:17. > :35:23.Donald Trump wanted. Do you agree? I think there are real risks with it

:35:24. > :35:26.being counter-productive. It is worth pointing out that we don't

:35:27. > :35:31.have that policy. We wouldn't contemplate going down the route of

:35:32. > :35:37.a ban in this way. We have a very different approach to it. So we

:35:38. > :35:42.disagree with your position President Trump has set out. What

:35:43. > :35:47.happens now? We have the British nationals engaged and so forth. Are

:35:48. > :35:50.we going to make representations to defend the interests of British

:35:51. > :35:55.people caught up in this? Yes, we will representations where British

:35:56. > :35:59.nationals are caught up with this. We clearly have a role to play in

:36:00. > :36:05.terms of representing them, and we have made that clear. This is an

:36:06. > :36:11.indication of why it is important that we have a relationship with the

:36:12. > :36:15.new president. It is worth appreciating that if we are to have

:36:16. > :36:17.influence, the Americans are an important partner for us on

:36:18. > :36:23.international security and on the economy and we need to have

:36:24. > :36:26.influence. So what was going on in that notorious Turkish press

:36:27. > :36:30.conference, do you think? As Home Secretary, as you say, she has been

:36:31. > :36:34.following this story for a long time. Then this big announcement

:36:35. > :36:39.comes and causes outrage around the world, and she can't feel she can

:36:40. > :36:44.say anything in public about it. Is that simply because we have to make

:36:45. > :36:48.nice to the Americans? I think Nadhim put his finger on it. The

:36:49. > :36:53.Prime Minister is not issued from the hip of politician. She wants to

:36:54. > :37:00.understand what the implications are. She had been in a series of

:37:01. > :37:04.meetings with President Erdogan, and she wants to see the briefing and

:37:05. > :37:10.understand it and then will respond to that. There was with pressure to

:37:11. > :37:14.respond within a new cycle and so on. The important is that we

:37:15. > :37:19.disagree with it and think it is wrong. Isn't it the case that

:37:20. > :37:23.because of Brexit, I know you were a Remain campaigner, but after Brexit,

:37:24. > :37:27.we so need new deals with the Americans, the Turks, the Saudis,

:37:28. > :37:31.the Chinese, that far from being able to stand up and speak truth to

:37:32. > :37:36.power and say what we really think, we now have to be mealy-mouthed as a

:37:37. > :37:39.country? I don't think that is right. There is scope for us to

:37:40. > :37:43.disagree, sometimes privately rather than publicly, but there is scope

:37:44. > :37:54.for us to disagree as candid friends. Whether we were in this

:37:55. > :37:57.circumstance or not, the United States is a hugely important partner

:37:58. > :38:02.for us for national security. Wanting to ensure that the US remain

:38:03. > :38:06.engaged in Nato, putting Brexit aside, is an important objective for

:38:07. > :38:12.us. The fact that the Prime Minister was able to go to the United States

:38:13. > :38:15.on Thursday and Friday to do a press conference with the president and

:38:16. > :38:22.talk about the 100% commitment to Nato is to our advantage. So as a

:38:23. > :38:28.general rule, it is good to engage with countries like the US. You said

:38:29. > :38:32.to put aside Brexit. Let's not put aside Brexit. Let's come to the

:38:33. > :38:38.legislation coming to the House of Commons this week. Is that

:38:39. > :38:47.commendable? Yes. And the government accept amendments to that? -- is it

:38:48. > :38:51.amendable? There will be an opportunity to debate. But we have

:38:52. > :38:56.to remember what this legislation is about. It is about triggering

:38:57. > :38:59.article 50. During the referendum campaign, no one was talking about

:39:00. > :39:03.whether there would be need for legislation. Jeremy Corbyn was

:39:04. > :39:11.saying we should trigger it straightaway. But we respect the

:39:12. > :39:15.Supreme Court judgment and there has to be legislation. We are bringing

:39:16. > :39:19.that forward. But this is simply about whether we respect the result

:39:20. > :39:23.of the referendum. We don't know which amendments will be taken by

:39:24. > :39:26.the Speaker and so on, but there is a lot of support for guaranteeing

:39:27. > :39:32.the rights of EU citizens in this country. In a sense, a parallel

:39:33. > :39:34.question to the Trump refugee ban is guaranteeing the rights of

:39:35. > :39:37.individuals. A lot of your fellow Conservative MPs are passionate

:39:38. > :39:41.about that. If there was an amendment supported by the

:39:42. > :39:44.opposition parties and enough Tory MPs to go through the House of

:39:45. > :39:48.Commons, that would not be a disaster for the negotiations, would

:39:49. > :39:52.it? We want to guarantee the position of EU nationals who are

:39:53. > :39:55.here. The Prime Minister recently made it clear that that was a

:39:56. > :40:00.priority area for her and she would like to progress that as quickly as

:40:01. > :40:05.possible. But we also have to protect the positions of UK

:40:06. > :40:07.nationals in the EU. If we could get this issue out of the way and

:40:08. > :40:14.protect both EU nationals and UK nationals, we would love to do that.

:40:15. > :40:18.But you don't want to deal just with EU nationals here and then find that

:40:19. > :40:23.UK nationals are left in a vulnerable position. We want to deal

:40:24. > :40:26.with the two together. A lot of people will have seen on television

:40:27. > :40:31.those pictures of refugees who, because of the Trump ban, are now

:40:32. > :40:35.caught in Chile and very unpleasant refugee camps with nowhere to go, no

:40:36. > :40:38.future. Do you think in these circumstances, it might be a

:40:39. > :40:43.generous and properly British thing to do to offer more of them a place

:40:44. > :40:48.in this country? We have to remember what we are already doing. We are

:40:49. > :40:53.the biggest financial benefactor to refugee support in that area. We are

:40:54. > :40:57.putting in huge sums of money. The US are ahead, but certainly per

:40:58. > :41:06.capita, we are the biggest contributor. It is early days, but

:41:07. > :41:10.we sometimes underestimate the contribution we are already making

:41:11. > :41:15.in terms of helping refugees, as it is right that we do so. One last

:41:16. > :41:26.question. We have pulled out of your top. This is infuriating a lot of

:41:27. > :41:35.scientists who see it as an incomprehensible decision. Why are

:41:36. > :41:41.we pulling out of amendable? -- pulling out of Euratom? The

:41:42. > :41:49.important point is that we need to see if there are aspects of the

:41:50. > :41:53.nuclear industry that can work with other partners, and we will see if

:41:54. > :41:55.that is what we can do. Thank you for coming in.

:41:56. > :41:57.Having made his name in Hollywood as a romantic lead,

:41:58. > :41:59.Matthew McConaughey is a chameleon who's transformed himself

:42:00. > :42:02.beyond recognition on screens big and small, from Dallas Buyers Club

:42:03. > :42:04.to True Detective to his latest cinema outing, Gold,

:42:05. > :42:07.a true tale about a wildcat prospector with a dream, a dream

:42:08. > :42:10.which takes him to the jungle and to the brink of madness.

:42:11. > :42:13.We caught up just over a week ago on the day when another man

:42:14. > :42:15.with a liking for gold - Donald Trump -

:42:16. > :42:21.McConaughey shared his thoughts on President Trump too.

:42:22. > :42:27.Now, sometimes, not that often, but sometimes the prospecting guards

:42:28. > :42:30.are having a party at the pearly gates and we are really,

:42:31. > :42:35.We dig down in there and we find a little metal comb...

:42:36. > :42:56.Well, he literally has a dream one night, a literal dream that he knows

:42:57. > :42:59.the man who knows where the gold is in Indonesia.

:43:00. > :43:02.And he met this man nine years prior.

:43:03. > :43:04.Hawks a watch, takes a one-way ticket to Indonesia and makes

:43:05. > :43:12.And it feels a little bit like a kind of Texan morality tale.

:43:13. > :43:14.The guys who get the dirt under their fingernails,

:43:15. > :43:20.who sweat, do the real work, and then you've got Wall Street,

:43:21. > :43:22.the snooty East Coast establishment trying to turn them over,

:43:23. > :43:28.Absolutely, I mean, it was one hell of a coup for him

:43:29. > :43:31.to even find the gold, but then the next problem occurs

:43:32. > :43:37.As we all know, once you make it, how do you hang onto it?

:43:38. > :43:39.Well, Wall Street, now that he's got all the gold,

:43:40. > :43:48.The second half of the tale is, how do you hang on to what you have?

:43:49. > :43:51.And he fights, we won't give it all away, but there is another huge

:43:52. > :43:54.twist of course at the end of it and he doesn't prove

:43:55. > :43:57.to be the great hero, the great visionary that perhaps

:43:58. > :43:59.we thought he was all the way through the film.

:44:00. > :44:04.So, this is quite an unfamiliar kind of story where the hustler,

:44:05. > :44:06.the entrepreneur, is the hero of the story.

:44:07. > :44:08.What, for you, is the underlying message?

:44:09. > :44:12.The underlying message would be, there's a difference

:44:13. > :44:17.This is, for Kenny Wells, the guy I played, for the real man,

:44:18. > :44:20.this was not about greed, this was about a dream,

:44:21. > :44:23.chasing it down, to pull it off, to stick it to the men,

:44:24. > :44:38.It turns a lot of people mad in this, more people

:44:39. > :44:41.than you probably think going into it, or maybe less by the

:44:42. > :44:45.You're not sure who is really mad at the end.

:44:46. > :44:47.For quite a lot of this film, I thought this is,

:44:48. > :44:50.not Trump's America, but this is small-time central

:44:51. > :44:53.redneck America sticking one up to the snooty East Coast

:44:54. > :45:01.This is the guy that nobody bets on, this is like millions

:45:02. > :45:04.of people in the world, not billions, that get out of bed

:45:05. > :45:08.every day and don't have a ticket to the American dream.

:45:09. > :45:11.They are going to have to hustle their way in the back

:45:12. > :45:13.door, the side door, or come down the chimney

:45:14. > :45:16.and be an entrepreneur and make it their own way,

:45:17. > :45:24.OK, so every single American actor or arty type who comes over

:45:25. > :45:26.to London dumps on Trump, you all completely hate him.

:45:27. > :45:29.Do you think it's time that maybe Hollywood and the cultural elite

:45:30. > :45:41.He's our president, and it's very dynamic and as divisive

:45:42. > :45:43.of an inauguration in time that we've ever had.

:45:44. > :45:45.At the same time, it's time for us to embrace,

:45:46. > :45:48.shake hands with this fact and be constructive with him

:45:49. > :45:57.So, even those who most strongly may disagree with his principles

:45:58. > :46:00.or things he's said and done - which is another thing,

:46:01. > :46:03.we will see what he does compared to what he had said -

:46:04. > :46:07.no matter how much you even disagreed along the way,

:46:08. > :46:10.it's time to think about how constructive can you be

:46:11. > :46:13.because he's our president for the next four years at least.

:46:14. > :46:19.Let me ask you about the other way a lot of people

:46:20. > :46:23.in Britain know of you, which is through True Detective,

:46:24. > :46:27.and Rusty there is kind of cynical, materialistic, pessimistic

:46:28. > :46:33.I just wonder, unlike a film, to make a big long series

:46:34. > :46:35.like True Detective, you must inhabit that character

:46:36. > :46:41.To what extent does Rusty rub off on you, and to what extent

:46:42. > :46:46.Philosophically I'm a lot on the same page, but me personally,

:46:47. > :46:54.But one great thing about a long series like that is it's a 450-page

:46:55. > :46:59.script instead of a film that's close to 120.

:47:00. > :47:02.You have a longer first act of development of character.

:47:03. > :47:07.When I first read that, the writing was so on fire

:47:08. > :47:09.and things that were coming out of Rust Cohle's mouth.

:47:10. > :47:12.Whether I agreed with him or I didn't, I loved

:47:13. > :47:26.I see a propensity for obesity, poverty, fairy tales,

:47:27. > :47:29.folks putting what few bucks they do have in little wicker baskets

:47:30. > :47:32.I think it's safe to say that nobody here will be

:47:33. > :47:41.Some folks enjoy community, common good.

:47:42. > :47:45.Yeah, well if the common good has got to make up fairy tales then it's

:47:46. > :47:48.And you and Woody Harrelson were very early in, in terms

:47:49. > :47:50.of stepping to one side from a Hollywood career

:47:51. > :47:53.and going into a big, long-form television series.

:47:54. > :47:56.And look how many they are doing now.

:47:57. > :47:59.A lot of that is from the success of that first season

:48:00. > :48:01.of True Detective that Woody and I did.

:48:02. > :48:02.Absolutely, I saw you smiling, remembering it.

:48:03. > :48:05.Is the attraction simply the long-form aspect of it,

:48:06. > :48:12.Great story, great character, and when I had only done films,

:48:13. > :48:16.if you go back 20 years or even less, there is a bit of taboo to go

:48:17. > :48:21.I'm happy to say that when this came across my desk

:48:22. > :48:27.four or five years ago, I considered that for

:48:28. > :48:29.about five seconds, and my agent and I said "Look

:48:30. > :48:34.Look at the character, it's outstanding.

:48:35. > :48:36.I don't give a damn what screen it's on."

:48:37. > :48:39.And today some of the best stories are being told on the small screen.

:48:40. > :48:42.Matthew McConaughey, thank you very much for joining us.

:48:43. > :48:49.Coming up later this morning, Andrew Neil will be discussing

:48:50. > :48:52.the consequences of Theresa May's meeting with President Trump

:48:53. > :48:54.and the fallout from the deportations row with former

:48:55. > :48:58.Ukip leader and Trump confidant, Nigel Farage.

:48:59. > :49:02.That's the Sunday Politics at 11 o'clock here on BBC One.

:49:03. > :49:04.Now, remoaner in chief or brave champion of

:49:05. > :49:12.The Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron is with me.

:49:13. > :49:18.Before we come onto Brexit, let me ask you about the Theresa May visit

:49:19. > :49:26.because she had a very tough line to walk. She and we need to deal with

:49:27. > :49:30.this man. We have to, for the future prosperity of our communities and

:49:31. > :49:40.our children, have a good deal with America and yet we are all saying to

:49:41. > :49:44.her, you must be more forthright, in a sense more insulting to the man

:49:45. > :49:49.you are asking for a deal. It is a very hard job. It is not insulting

:49:50. > :49:54.to stand up to somebody who is behaving in a way which is

:49:55. > :49:57.appalling, arguing for the introduction of torture, being

:49:58. > :50:02.misogynistic, and the appalling band of people entering the United States

:50:03. > :50:06.from Muslim countries. We would have expected her to stand up to Donald

:50:07. > :50:08.Trump, she ended up holding his hand. It seems to me that what we

:50:09. > :50:28.have at the moment is a weak position. Donald

:50:29. > :50:31.Trump himself wrote 30 years ago that the best time for you to make a

:50:32. > :50:33.deal is when the other guy is desperate. She looked desperate. He

:50:34. > :50:36.saw weakness is what you are saying. That's right. It is right for the

:50:37. > :50:39.Prime Minister of Britain to speak to the president. If you only speak

:50:40. > :50:42.to people who share your values, you will be very lonely. It was right to

:50:43. > :50:45.talk to him, what was wrong was to effectively roll over in the face of

:50:46. > :50:50.the ban of people entering from Muslim countries. We don't know what

:50:51. > :50:53.she said to him privately, and again in this circumstance where we are

:50:54. > :50:57.asking him for a generous trade deal, to grandstand against him

:50:58. > :51:05.seems a dangerous thing for us to do. We do know that it took her

:51:06. > :51:12.until the early hours of morning for Theresa May to even stand up and say

:51:13. > :51:15.she gently disagreed with what Donald Trump was doing. She should

:51:16. > :51:20.have opposed this from the beginning but when it became apparent it would

:51:21. > :51:26.affect British people, Nadhim Zahawi we saw earlier on, Mo Farah, the guy

:51:27. > :51:30.who drove me here this morning, it affects British people and you would

:51:31. > :51:35.expect the British Prime Minister to fight Britain's corner. I want her

:51:36. > :51:41.to be very clear, I want Theresa May to be what a good friend to America

:51:42. > :51:47.would be and tell them how it is. Don't go over there and hold his

:51:48. > :51:53.hand. She did get things out of him on Nato that many thought she would

:51:54. > :51:57.not get. Assuming this ban is in place, it is a temporary ban being

:51:58. > :52:01.challenged at the moment, but if it is still in place in the summer when

:52:02. > :52:06.President Trump comes for a state visit, do you want to see him

:52:07. > :52:11.addressing the House of Commons? It is important that you have leaders

:52:12. > :52:15.of the country engaging with us. I thought a state visit was hasty,

:52:16. > :52:19.particularly given the things he's been coming out with recently. You

:52:20. > :52:23.should engage with people like this but there a massive difference

:52:24. > :52:26.between engaging with Donald Trump and effectively giving succour to

:52:27. > :52:34.the kind of thing he's coming out with. He is that moderate --

:52:35. > :52:39.moderate internationalist consensus that Britain, America and Europe

:52:40. > :52:43.have been the pillars of and we should not giving lightly because

:52:44. > :52:47.Theresa May has put herself in a desperate position where she is

:52:48. > :52:52.alienating our friends to the east and in a desperate position, and of

:52:53. > :52:56.course Donald Trump can smell desperation 3000 miles away. Let's

:52:57. > :53:02.turn to Brexit, it is clear you want us to stay inside the EU, is that

:53:03. > :53:07.fair? It's never been anything other than the liberal commitment. And you

:53:08. > :53:10.would like somehow to stop Brexit happening? My view is we will never

:53:11. > :53:16.get a better deal than the one we currently have, but the reality is

:53:17. > :53:20.the referendum took place so the Government has a mandate to

:53:21. > :53:24.negotiate Brexit with the European Union. What Theresa May does not

:53:25. > :53:28.have is a mandate to make the choice she just has which is to go for a

:53:29. > :53:35.hard Brexit outside the single market. I would argue that she has

:53:36. > :53:38.assumed the 52% meant what Nigel Farage means, I think that is a

:53:39. > :53:44.massive insult to the majority of people who voted to leave. Again and

:53:45. > :53:48.again, in that chair, that very chair, there was Boris Johnson,

:53:49. > :53:54.Michael Gove, David Cameron, George Osborne and I asked every single one

:53:55. > :53:58.of them, does coming out of the EU mean coming out of the single

:53:59. > :54:02.market, and every single one of them said yes so I take it that people

:54:03. > :54:07.understood that because it is so intertwined with being in the EU

:54:08. > :54:12.that being in one means being in the other. Nigel Farage has also argued

:54:13. > :54:17.for Britain being like Norway and Switzerland, countries outside the

:54:18. > :54:21.EU and in the single market. If you were arguing Britain's corner in

:54:22. > :54:25.Europe, Theresa May would argue for Britain to be in the single market.

:54:26. > :54:30.She has waved the white flag and Donald Trump can see we are

:54:31. > :54:34.desperate. Is your preferred option from where we are now after the

:54:35. > :54:40.referendum to somehow stay inside the EU or is be outside the EU but

:54:41. > :54:44.inside the single market? Put simply the British people have the right to

:54:45. > :54:48.have the final decision on this. Theresa May will return with the

:54:49. > :54:52.deal, we don't know what it will look like, she doesn't know what it

:54:53. > :54:57.will look like, and somebody will decide on that deal. Will it be

:54:58. > :55:00.Theresa May, the parliament, or the British people? We think the British

:55:01. > :55:05.people should decide on the terms of the deal. The other option would be

:55:06. > :55:10.for the British people to say thank you but no thank you, we will stay

:55:11. > :55:13.put. The problem with that second referendum is that apart from the

:55:14. > :55:17.Liberal Democrats, nobody is calling for its so the chances of it

:55:18. > :55:23.happening are vanishingly small. You make a very strong case for the

:55:24. > :55:28.Liberal Democrats growing in size. That wasn't my intention! Our job is

:55:29. > :55:35.to scrutinise this process to say somebody is going to decide on this

:55:36. > :55:39.deal, somebody is, Theresa May, her government, the Parliament or the

:55:40. > :55:45.people, and we say it should be the people. We also say that it is

:55:46. > :55:48.unlikely, I may be wrong, but it is unlikely we will ever doing deal

:55:49. > :55:54.with Europe that is as good as the one we have now and we are not

:55:55. > :56:02.ashamed of saying that is the case. Somebody needs to stand up for this

:56:03. > :56:05.position. We are offering people a vehicle for British people to stay

:56:06. > :56:09.paramount in this, for their will to be expressed at the end of this

:56:10. > :56:12.process and not just the beginning. There is a very important issue

:56:13. > :56:17.about to be discussed in the House of Commons as part of the Article 50

:56:18. > :56:21.triggering debate, which is when the final vote on the deal can take

:56:22. > :56:24.place in the House of Commons. As I understand it the Government is

:56:25. > :56:28.saying at the end of the process when we have our agreement, we come

:56:29. > :56:34.back to the House of Commons and you either accept the agreement or we

:56:35. > :56:38.leave on WTO rules and that is it. The Labour Party and many others

:56:39. > :56:43.want a vote before the end of the deal so what are the chances of

:56:44. > :56:47.Parliamentary confrontations, if you like, during the two year process

:56:48. > :56:50.before it's over? Of course Parliament should be holding the

:56:51. > :56:55.Government to account, we want the best deal possible, which is quite

:56:56. > :56:59.Theresa May giving up on the single market at the beginning is so

:57:00. > :57:06.foolish. It puts her in a position where we have no serious negotiating

:57:07. > :57:11.position. In the end the big issue is what kind of deal she will come

:57:12. > :57:14.back with. This will dictate the kind of country we are, the

:57:15. > :57:18.relationship we have with the rest of the world, how prosperous we are

:57:19. > :57:23.for the next half a century and somebody will decide on that deal at

:57:24. > :57:27.the end. Should it be Theresa May, the Government, the Parliament, or

:57:28. > :57:32.the British people? The only democratic end is for the British

:57:33. > :57:37.people to have the decision. You say you are speaking for the 48% of the

:57:38. > :57:41.people who voted to stay. We are speaking the people who didn't vote

:57:42. > :57:48.for the extreme version of Brexit that Theresa May has chosen. You

:57:49. > :57:53.would be more effective if you were reaching out to other parties who

:57:54. > :57:57.took the same view, like the SNP and Labour Party, but you won't because

:57:58. > :58:02.in the end you are all still tribal. There is a danger in politics that

:58:03. > :58:07.it does make you live inside those. During the referendum it was great

:58:08. > :58:12.spending time with Caroline Lucas, Harriet Harman, and finding how much

:58:13. > :58:16.we have in common but the reality is the two great threats Britain face

:58:17. > :58:21.at the moment, one is hard Brexit and the other is a Tory government.

:58:22. > :58:25.It seems to me the Liberal Democrats need to grow to provide an

:58:26. > :58:29.alternative to the Tories. Can I ask you very quickly, with Article 50

:58:30. > :58:33.coming to the House of Commons next week, is there any chance Theresa

:58:34. > :58:38.May can be defeated on any of those amendments? Only if all parties vote

:58:39. > :58:41.in the interests of their constituents and vote for there to

:58:42. > :58:45.be democracy at the end of the process as well as at the beginning.

:58:46. > :58:47.Thank you for talking to us. Next Sunday, Sir Bernard Hogan Howe

:58:48. > :58:52.will join me to look back on his tumultuous career as head

:58:53. > :58:56.of the Metropolitan Police.