:00:00. > :00:07.After the storm - the calm and the clearing up.
:00:08. > :00:12.Not so much Doris, but those by-elections which have battered
:00:13. > :00:15.and scattered some recent accepted truths about British politics.
:00:16. > :00:34.This week, we'll be rootling through the debris.
:00:35. > :00:40.Shami Chakrabati, one of Jeremy Corbyn's key
:00:41. > :00:46.But the party that looks in deeper trouble this weekend isn't Labour
:00:47. > :00:52.I'll be asking its deputy leader Peter Whittle.
:00:53. > :00:57.Cockahoop after Copeland they claim to be the new party
:00:58. > :01:11.Sir Patrick McLoughlin. with the Conservative chairman
:01:12. > :01:15.star Hugh Jackman's been telling me about his swansong as the darkest
:01:16. > :01:31.What we are talking about here is a legend, an icon. Wolverine saved the
:01:32. > :01:32.world, he is a warrior and went into battle for us. He won, but he does
:01:33. > :01:37.not feel like that. And I'm
:01:38. > :01:38.joined live by one of post punk music scene,
:01:39. > :01:44.Marc Almond. Reviewing the news today -
:01:45. > :01:55.on the left in every sense, the commentator Paul Mason,
:01:56. > :01:58.on the right the Tory And she's back and
:01:59. > :02:00.she'll hold her own. The Brexit-confronting
:02:01. > :02:02.campaigner Gina Miller. The Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn,
:02:03. > :02:13.has said he accepts some responsibility for defeat
:02:14. > :02:15.in the Copeland by-election - but that he is determined to finish
:02:16. > :02:18.the job he was elected In an article in The Sunday Mirror,
:02:19. > :02:23.he urges his party to stand together He's expected to deliver a similar
:02:24. > :02:26.message when he speaks to the Scottish Labour conference
:02:27. > :02:29.today. The Conservative former
:02:30. > :02:32.Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Heseltine, has said
:02:33. > :02:34.he will rebel against the government when the House of Lords votes
:02:35. > :02:37.on the bill giving Theresa May Writing in The Mail on Sunday,
:02:38. > :02:44.the senior peer says he will support an opposition amendment demanding
:02:45. > :02:46.that MPs get a meaningful vote President Trump has said he won't be
:02:47. > :02:51.attending this years The news came in a tweet
:02:52. > :03:00.by Donald Trump - in another sign of worsening relations
:03:01. > :03:01.with the mainstream press. Only three other leaders before
:03:02. > :03:04.Mr Trump have not attended the annual event which has been held
:03:05. > :03:08.for more than a century. German police are waiting to speak
:03:09. > :03:12.to a man who drove his car into a crowd in Heidelberg -
:03:13. > :03:14.killing a 73-year-old man. The driver, who is German, was shot,
:03:15. > :03:23.injured and arrested by police in a brief standoff after fleeing
:03:24. > :03:25.the scene on foot. Final preparations are being made
:03:26. > :03:28.for the Oscars ceremony, which takes With 14 nominations,
:03:29. > :03:33.the musical La La Land is expected to be a big winner -
:03:34. > :03:37.but the dramas Moonlight, and Manchester By The Sea,
:03:38. > :03:42.are also tipped to do well. The next news on BBC One
:03:43. > :04:01.is at one o'clock. The Observer taken over by events.
:04:02. > :04:05.Jeremy Corbyn is told... He has taken some blame this morning. The
:04:06. > :04:09.Mail on Sunday with the tragic story of a five-year-old girl who was four
:04:10. > :04:14.minutes late for her doctors appointment, he did not see her and
:04:15. > :04:19.she had an asthma attack and died. Other similarly difficult stories in
:04:20. > :04:25.the Mail on Sunday today. The Sunday Times, "Benefits for migrants face
:04:26. > :04:33.the axe", a complex 's proposals for the government, for foreign workers,
:04:34. > :04:37.Visas and much else besides. Finally, The Sunday Express with
:04:38. > :04:43."Volcanic ridges of cesspit killer". This is probably the worst murder
:04:44. > :04:49.story I have heard for a long time -- rages. This was a stinker in
:04:50. > :04:53.every way. We need to start with the by-elections. We will be rooting
:04:54. > :04:59.through the debris... Tim, ritual through the Daobry in The Observer?
:05:00. > :05:07.Particularly striking is the analysis from James Morris -- Tim,
:05:08. > :05:10.route through the debris. He understands the Labour Party well,
:05:11. > :05:15.and some of those figures, labour lost Scotland. We know the Tories
:05:16. > :05:20.ahead of Labour in Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn is speaking to the Labour
:05:21. > :05:27.conference there? Yes. He needs to rally the troops. Labour is 15
:05:28. > :05:32.points behind the working-class voters, according to this. In terms
:05:33. > :05:37.of the preferred Prime Minister, Jeremy Corbyn is 36 points behind
:05:38. > :05:42.Theresa May. This is the caller Labour vote, and it is deserting it.
:05:43. > :05:49.What is interesting about what James says, he does not just blame Jeremy
:05:50. > :05:55.Corbyn, he says it began under Tony Blair and new Labour. Some of the
:05:56. > :06:01.emphasis on Europe and immigration. There is the grizzled right, the
:06:02. > :06:07.grizzled left? Yes, Tim Shipman in The Times, a lot of the Sunday
:06:08. > :06:14.newspaper journalists clearly lacks sources at the centre of the story.
:06:15. > :06:17.Tim's story is mainly about people who did not agree to speak to him
:06:18. > :06:23.but it gets to the root of the problem, well put by a Labour
:06:24. > :06:31.activist called Richard Angel, head of a progress group within Labour.
:06:32. > :06:35.He basically says, look, Labour's problem is how do you win as a
:06:36. > :06:39.centre party when you've never been it before? That's the problem that
:06:40. > :06:44.people like me face who support Jeremy Corbyn and did support and
:06:45. > :06:48.will carry on. I think that Copeland was the wake-up call, they buried
:06:49. > :06:53.Ukip in Stoke, destroying Paul Nuttall but the wake-up call in
:06:54. > :06:59.Copeland, you cannot go on. The NHS and issues which have been key for
:07:00. > :07:03.20 years do not necessarily work in the new light of the situation. You
:07:04. > :07:07.need to find a new set of answers. My question is, why do is that it
:07:08. > :07:13.not connect any more? Brexit, we will talk about it, but it refrained
:07:14. > :07:17.everything. So has the coming succession of Scotland from the UK,
:07:18. > :07:21.I think it should happen. Many people in Labour think they can get
:07:22. > :07:28.around these big existential issues, right and left, with the old songs.
:07:29. > :07:30.I've been saying until we get a clear position voted on by the party
:07:31. > :07:36.on Brexit and free movement committee will not make much
:07:37. > :07:39.progress. Gina Miller, you let the fight for the Article 50 debate in
:07:40. > :07:43.the House of Commons and the House of Lords can you are back at it
:07:44. > :07:49.again, what is your first aura, from the Independent newspaper? On the
:07:50. > :07:53.front page, -- your first story. They quoted me as saying that the
:07:54. > :07:58.House of Lords needs to show backbone this week. These debates
:07:59. > :08:00.are happening because of my case. We are exercising parliamentary
:08:01. > :08:06.sovereignty and the will of the people does not negate the weight or
:08:07. > :08:11.wisdom of the Houses of Parliament. That is what I'm fighting for in my
:08:12. > :08:16.campaign which I launched this week. What the House of Lords will be
:08:17. > :08:19.voting on and what you want, it is a slightly tougher promise in the
:08:20. > :08:24.legislation, but the kind of vote at the end of this process... It's an
:08:25. > :08:28.amendment. In the Sun newspaper, they talk about the Brexit ship, I
:08:29. > :08:32.say that we need lifeboats on it. The amendment I am calling for and
:08:33. > :08:36.hopefully the House of Lords will agree or pass this week, there
:08:37. > :08:46.should be an amendment which says in 18 months' time, it is legally
:08:47. > :08:48.required for the houses to have a vote on all options. And we are
:08:49. > :08:50.seeing Lord Heseltine swinging back through the jungle after a long
:08:51. > :08:55.period of silence... It's very interesting what he says. In the
:08:56. > :09:00.article, he says, if public opinion in the UK changes over Brexit, there
:09:01. > :09:04.needs to be some sort of new exit route, whether another referendum or
:09:05. > :09:10.election. That's exactly what I am calling for, this boat in 18 months'
:09:11. > :09:13.time. In this article in the mail, when we are out of all of the
:09:14. > :09:17.elections that will happen in Europe, we could be in a different
:09:18. > :09:21.place. Europe itself could be in a different place so we should have a
:09:22. > :09:25.vote at that point. Jim, what is wrong with this? It's not the first
:09:26. > :09:29.time that Lord Heseltine has caused trouble over Europe for a female
:09:30. > :09:36.Tory Prime Minister! That's true! This is what he does. But what's
:09:37. > :09:39.Gina has been saying to someone like David Cameron, I was not his number
:09:40. > :09:45.one fan, but he clearly said before the referendum there would not be a
:09:46. > :09:49.second vote, this is the one time we make a decision on Europe. Then,
:09:50. > :09:54.that decision was taken. That this is not about a vote with the people
:09:55. > :09:57.but Parliament doing their sovereign duty. This is Parliament potentially
:09:58. > :10:02.and picking the vote of the people which I think is incredibly
:10:03. > :10:05.dangerous. Why are they so frightened of Parliament having the
:10:06. > :10:10.debate? I don't mind it, but Parliament need to respect what the
:10:11. > :10:13.people decided on June the 23rd. What I regret, for someone like
:10:14. > :10:19.Michael Heseltine, he has an enormous amount to offer for the
:10:20. > :10:22.country on economic policy and strategy, particularly industry. If
:10:23. > :10:26.anyone focuses on that, unfortunately, the whole debate in
:10:27. > :10:31.Britain at the moment is so focused on Brexit... We need to broaden it.
:10:32. > :10:36.Paul Mason? In a way, the foray around Copeland included something
:10:37. > :10:39.that we learned from Stoke-on-Trent. When Labour went to their core
:10:40. > :10:44.voters and said we will tell you, we need to, we are challenged by Ukip,
:10:45. > :10:49.what Brexit means, only Labour engage with what Brexit meant. They
:10:50. > :10:54.use standing there in the salons of London and at a party saying, let's
:10:55. > :11:02.stop it, suppertime chit, they said, we will make it mean something for
:11:03. > :11:05.you. They need to make sure they know the vote has happened. They can
:11:06. > :11:10.veto it if we do not get what we want during the process... That is
:11:11. > :11:15.what Michael Heseltine is offering you, in effect? He is right too, but
:11:16. > :11:20.there are two different Brexits on offer. Nothing else. People need to
:11:21. > :11:25.get their heads around that. I've supported your case, it is good, but
:11:26. > :11:30.we need to say to people, do not think you can sabotage this. It's
:11:31. > :11:34.not about sabotaging it. We need to trigger Article 50 as soon as
:11:35. > :11:38.possible, Theresa May says unless it is triggered, we will not see that
:11:39. > :11:44.hand. But we need to have this boat in 18 months. The other party,
:11:45. > :11:49.interestingly, in trouble over Brexit, is Ukip itself -- we need to
:11:50. > :11:52.have this vote in 18 months. They have both been on the show, saying
:11:53. > :11:58.they are fed up with the current leadership of Ukip. It is
:11:59. > :12:02.extraordinary, as you said in your introduction, Labour has internal
:12:03. > :12:07.problems but Ukip is another case altogether! I think the fundamental
:12:08. > :12:10.problem for Ukip is not just the Brexit issue taking away the Europe
:12:11. > :12:13.issue from them, look at where Theresa May is repositioning the
:12:14. > :12:17.Conservatives, more sceptical about big business and tough on
:12:18. > :12:32.immigration. It's very different from where David Cameron was taking
:12:33. > :12:36.the party. Ukip's grant has been taken out from underneath them.
:12:37. > :12:40.There is also the cultural issue, the kinds of things that politics
:12:41. > :12:44.are interested in. Like Shami Chakrabarti, coming on in the show
:12:45. > :12:49.later, and mobile phones for prisoners? Yes, this story in the
:12:50. > :12:54.Mail on Sunday talks about this. I have to say I find it incredible
:12:55. > :12:58.that this should read... That this story is even in here. Of course
:12:59. > :13:04.they should have mobile phones, one of the biggest problems in prisons
:13:05. > :13:07.is drugs. There is proven evidence that the prison services cannot cope
:13:08. > :13:11.with what is going on with drugs in prisons. Mobile phones have been
:13:12. > :13:16.identified as one of the ways of prisoners getting drugs. We will
:13:17. > :13:20.talk about that in a moment. There is a lot in The Papers we could be
:13:21. > :13:22.talking about but one of the extraordinary spectator sports is
:13:23. > :13:29.Donald Trump versus the American media? I'm afraid I cannot see this
:13:30. > :13:34.as being in any way funny or ironic. This man has huge executive power,
:13:35. > :13:39.and the office of American presidency is invested with 200 odd
:13:40. > :13:42.years worth of executive Rabbitohs. Declaring war on the liberal media.
:13:43. > :13:50.Effectively using the same terminology that the Nazis used, by
:13:51. > :13:55.calling them the enemies of the people. A man who came to power on
:13:56. > :13:59.fake news. A man who, even now, according to stories in these
:14:00. > :14:03.papers, that he is trying to suppress, is trying to fix security
:14:04. > :14:07.and intelligence services of the United States. He is declaring war
:14:08. > :14:12.on the media. It's a very dangerous thing to do. I do not defend what he
:14:13. > :14:17.is doing at all, I agree with everything you just said. But there
:14:18. > :14:21.is a poll in Fox News... Which has not been banned. And is still
:14:22. > :14:24.welcome in the White House. To their credit, a lot of their journalists
:14:25. > :14:30.are standard with CNN and others, saying it is wrong. It was a poll of
:14:31. > :14:39.Fox News viewers, Donald Trump is doing this because 45% trust the
:14:40. > :14:45.Trump to tell the truth, only 42% reporters. Of course he is wrong...
:14:46. > :14:49.Maybe the liberal, mainstream media have something fundamentally wrong?
:14:50. > :14:54.I think what they got wrong is the assumption that facts when
:14:55. > :14:57.arguments. The New York Times, one of the band newspapers, it is
:14:58. > :15:02.sometimes unreadable for the amount of fact checking and caveats that
:15:03. > :15:07.journalists are meant to put into it. Donald Trump's narrative is
:15:08. > :15:15.rubbish. But it is not backed by fact. But it is also in motion. It
:15:16. > :15:18.is about emotion -- emotion. Donald Trump taps into the emotions of the
:15:19. > :15:22.people and if that is what they want, that is where the media
:15:23. > :15:26.suffers. We have the Oscars tonight, they are expecting a huge number of
:15:27. > :15:30.stars to make political statements. I think the stars will have to be
:15:31. > :15:34.careful. It could be completely overboard but at the same time...
:15:35. > :15:37.Donald Trump will enjoy that attention! Yes, but it is
:15:38. > :15:42.interesting that activists feel they have two step in where others are
:15:43. > :15:46.not standing up. It is strange and slightly disturbing. No actual is on
:15:47. > :15:50.the sofa today but thank you all for an interesting and relevant paper
:15:51. > :15:52.review, no fake news but just hard, crunchy facts.
:15:53. > :15:55.Storm Doris proved a brutal, murderous and travel-disrupting
:15:56. > :15:56.if mercifully brief visitor to these shores.
:15:57. > :16:12.Nothing quite like Doris on the way but I have almost everything else
:16:13. > :16:15.for you. Some wintry sunshine, some sunshine, but in western parts of
:16:16. > :16:22.the country through today another spell of wet and windy weather. Not
:16:23. > :16:29.as strong as Doris, but this cloud has been named storm UN, but not by
:16:30. > :16:33.the UK Met Office, but by the Irish weather service because they are
:16:34. > :16:37.concerned about effects across the Republic of Ireland. In the UK we
:16:38. > :16:42.are seeing increasing wet weather spreading into Scotland, south-west
:16:43. > :16:49.England, Wales. 60 mph gusts unexposed coasts in the west. My old
:16:50. > :16:53.here, however cold air talking and across northern Scotland so some of
:16:54. > :16:56.the rain here will start to turn to snow, and that rain and snow will
:16:57. > :17:01.move northwards where we could see wind gusts up to 70 mph through
:17:02. > :17:05.tonight. Rain across England and Wales but behind it's a real rush of
:17:06. > :17:09.showers and as temperatures plunge with go see some icy stretches
:17:10. > :17:13.tomorrow morning, particularly in north-western parts of the country.
:17:14. > :17:20.Monday has just about everything, some sunshine and showers, some of
:17:21. > :17:24.them heavy with hail and thunder. Wintry over higher ground and much
:17:25. > :17:29.chillier feel. There's a lot going on over the few days.
:17:30. > :17:31.Certainly is, at least the weather is exciting.
:17:32. > :17:33.After his bruising defeat in the Stoke by-election,
:17:34. > :17:35.Ukip's leader Paul Nuttall said he wasn't going anywhere,
:17:36. > :17:36.which is at the very least ambiguous.
:17:37. > :17:39.He's not around to tell us what he means but his deputy
:17:40. > :17:50.Very nice to have you here but it would be even nicer to have Paul
:17:51. > :17:56.Nuttall, what's happened to him? He had a trip booked after the
:17:57. > :18:04.by-election and we insisted he go. If he had a trip booked as --
:18:05. > :18:10.assuming he presumed he wasn't going to win. No, given the gruelling time
:18:11. > :18:15.he had been through and are particularly personal attack,
:18:16. > :18:20.obviously wanted some time to himself. He had a miserable four
:18:21. > :18:25.weeks, he's been called the purple Pinocchio, much mocked for Walter
:18:26. > :18:30.Mitty fantasy life and so forth, lots of personal attacks and his
:18:31. > :18:35.house, is he in the mood to stay on as you get leader? No question. Paul
:18:36. > :18:40.was elected with the biggest mandate last year, and without question he
:18:41. > :18:48.has united the party. Let's face it we had a rough time last year. And I
:18:49. > :18:52.think you've still got a rough time. No, of course it is disappointing we
:18:53. > :18:57.didn't win in Stoke but we are more united than ever and a real sense of
:18:58. > :19:01.renewed purpose. Let me pick you up on those. You. You say you are more
:19:02. > :19:07.united than ever, we have today Nigel Farage and Arron Banks saying
:19:08. > :19:12.the party is being run worse than a stall in the market. Arron Banks
:19:13. > :19:17.saying to you and Paul Nuttall, make me chairman and let me sort out this
:19:18. > :19:22.party or I'm off with your money, what's your message to him? Firstly
:19:23. > :19:25.we have a great young dynamic chairman in Paul Oakton. So you
:19:26. > :19:34.don't want Arron Banks as your chairman? It would be an interesting
:19:35. > :19:38.conversation to have. I have always been great for his free 's
:19:39. > :19:42.contribution, of course is not the only one who supports us. If it
:19:43. > :19:46.wants to take his money away there are other people, I wouldn't want
:19:47. > :19:51.that to happen. These sorts of interventions happen all the time
:19:52. > :19:56.with our party, it is part of politics. I think the differences
:19:57. > :20:01.that with us people tend to see the kind of do or die situation in
:20:02. > :20:06.virtually every controversy. This time round, they saw it with some
:20:07. > :20:10.reason because Paul Nuttall, you could generally, had said again and
:20:11. > :20:13.again we are going to replace Labour in the Midlands and the north of
:20:14. > :20:19.England, we will sweep femicide, just you watch. I want to make Ukip
:20:20. > :20:23.the patriotic party of working people, said Paul Nuttall. Nigel
:20:24. > :20:28.Farage before the by-election said, I don't think anybody for one moment
:20:29. > :20:31.can underplay just how important and absolutely fundamental that
:20:32. > :20:37.by-election is for this future of Ukip. It matters and it matters
:20:38. > :20:42.hugely and the truth is your chances of replacing Labour are now zero.
:20:43. > :20:47.Fundamentally destroyed in a key seat you should have won. If there
:20:48. > :20:50.was one mistake we made it worse that maybe Paul shouldn't have run
:20:51. > :20:57.so early. He's only been leader for 12 weeks. Explain why that was a
:20:58. > :21:04.mistake. Because people haven't got to know him well enough. Was he too
:21:05. > :21:08.experienced for that role? No, but the overriding point you make is
:21:09. > :21:14.that without question Ukip has an appeal for working class, patriotic
:21:15. > :21:18.working-class people. We didn't win this time, there are many
:21:19. > :21:23.by-election is coming up. When we talk about replacing Labour, about
:21:24. > :21:32.120 years ago there was one Labour MP, Keir Hardie, and remained as one
:21:33. > :21:35.Labour MP for a long time, it took about a generation. For all the
:21:36. > :21:41.people who are constantly saying this is the end for Ukip, we are 15%
:21:42. > :21:47.in the polls. When we had a general election and got 4 million votes,
:21:48. > :21:50.that was 12%, we have increased. I admit, what is difficult as
:21:51. > :21:55.translating that support with this kind of parliamentary system we have
:21:56. > :22:00.into MPs, that's a challenge. That is the system we have and will have
:22:01. > :22:12.for the foreseeable future. So we will keep
:22:13. > :22:17.going on. Another 25 years before we see another Ukip MP? No, not at all.
:22:18. > :22:20.Behind the analysis in the papers today is the desire of from some
:22:21. > :22:23.parts of the media the desire to see Ukip go. But you as a party raised
:22:24. > :22:31.people's expectations, you said we are going to replace Labour, just
:22:32. > :22:38.you watch. This seat Stoke Central Brexit central, we are pouring in
:22:39. > :22:42.resources and you got thumped. We were second, our vote went slightly
:22:43. > :22:48.up, not by enough, I fully accept that. If you were down there you
:22:49. > :22:52.would have seen how we still set the agenda. The Labour Party gave out
:22:53. > :22:57.leaflets covered in the St George 's Cross saying we will control
:22:58. > :23:01.migration. We are still making the agenda and making it nationally.
:23:02. > :23:06.Except the wider problem for Ukip is surely that it is hard to see as Tim
:23:07. > :23:11.Montgomery was saying, what you are actually for. Because after all,
:23:12. > :23:15.Theresa May has picked up the immigration issue and control over
:23:16. > :23:19.immigration, and made that central to the way she's dealing with
:23:20. > :23:23.Brexit. The Labour Party has waved through Article 50 because they want
:23:24. > :23:28.the will of the people to be heard. It is hard for Ukip to say to people
:23:29. > :23:32.you are being betrayed or the establishment is against you. It is
:23:33. > :23:37.not hard at all because Brexit hasn't happened yet. You are saying
:23:38. > :23:43.that Theresa May has been saying of things that are bringing people on
:23:44. > :23:47.and giving the Tories support. She was Home Secretary, very harsh on
:23:48. > :23:52.migration, she has made harsh speeches but at the same time she
:23:53. > :23:55.presided over huge increases, historically unprecedented increases
:23:56. > :24:00.in migration. Absolutely but she said after the vote, we are going to
:24:01. > :24:05.take back control of immigration, and she has put that central in
:24:06. > :24:10.terms of the way she has negotiated. She has not said a thing. She talks
:24:11. > :24:14.about it a hell of a lot, we are the party people know exactly where we
:24:15. > :24:20.stand on migration, it is still the biggest issue, it hasn't gone away.
:24:21. > :24:24.But we want a point style system like Australia and at the same time
:24:25. > :24:28.we want, as well as an aptitude test, we want an aptitude test to
:24:29. > :24:33.make sure people coming here I accept our values. These are huge
:24:34. > :24:35.issues for people the Tories and Labour don't talk about. Thank you
:24:36. > :24:39.very much indeed for speaking to us. He's played many leads in Hollywood
:24:40. > :24:42.movies over the last 20 years but Hugh Jackman's defining role has
:24:43. > :24:44.been Wolverine part But these mutant outsiders battling
:24:45. > :24:49.to save the Earth were originally conceived as anti-prejudice icons
:24:50. > :24:51.by New York cartoonists Anyway, I'm afraid fans will never
:24:52. > :24:55.see Jackman play Wolverine again. He's bowing out with one
:24:56. > :24:57.last hurrah, a darker, more reflective action film,
:24:58. > :25:05.with a soundtrack to match. I play a mutant, so a kind
:25:06. > :25:37.of enhanced human being. He has a very strong metal all over
:25:38. > :25:44.his bones and claws that come out and he is virtually
:25:45. > :25:46.indestructible. However, in this film we see him
:25:47. > :25:49.in the winter of his life, not only my character
:25:50. > :25:53.but Charles Xavier played by Patrick Stewart, who's also now the most
:25:54. > :25:58.powerful brain suffering dementia. That's what happens to super heroes
:25:59. > :26:03.in the winter of their life, and what happens after the battle, how
:26:04. > :26:06.there's a line in the movie where he referenced shame, there's no
:26:07. > :26:10.living with the killing. This film is set in the future,
:26:11. > :26:13.but the relatively Trump's wall or somebody's wall
:26:14. > :26:16.is running along the Mexican border, and at the end,
:26:17. > :26:18.without giving things away, Canada You escape America into Canada,
:26:19. > :26:23.so what's it saying, do you think, about
:26:24. > :26:30.contemporary America? You know, it's a great question
:26:31. > :26:33.and I want to be really clear. All those things about the wall,
:26:34. > :26:36.they were all written into our script before all this
:26:37. > :26:38.stuff started to happen. I do remember calling James Mangold,
:26:39. > :26:41.and saying, "I think our script may have leaked
:26:42. > :26:43.somewhere, I think someone But it's timely and I'm
:26:44. > :26:46.thrilled that it's timely but, when it began, I'm
:26:47. > :26:54.not sure if you know, was an allegory for the civil rights
:26:55. > :26:57.movement so Patrick Stewart's character, Xavier, was
:26:58. > :26:59.Martin Luther King, and Ian McKellen's character,
:27:00. > :27:01.Magneto, was Malcom X. It was always about tolerance,
:27:02. > :27:02.about discrimination, and it always kind of
:27:03. > :27:04.had something to say. That's what differentiated
:27:05. > :27:07.it in 1963 so we are It says a lot about
:27:08. > :27:10.this character, who wants to shut down,
:27:11. > :27:12.who wants to separate, who finds life and love too painful,
:27:13. > :27:14.too hard, too This movie is very much
:27:15. > :27:24.meditation about... worthwhile loving and embracing or
:27:25. > :27:33.is it just easier to build a wall. And it's also a curiously knowing
:27:34. > :27:35.movie because, as you say, all the stories came
:27:36. > :27:38.out of the comic books, and there's character and the young girl are
:27:39. > :27:43.leafing through a comic book and she You say, "That's not true,
:27:44. > :27:47.that's a comic book." There is you as a comic
:27:48. > :27:48.book character saying, "it can't be true,
:27:49. > :27:51.it's in a comic book". It's a little weird,
:27:52. > :27:54.very deliberate, something James Mangold,
:27:55. > :27:56.the director, came up with and I loved it
:27:57. > :27:59.because what we are talking about He's a warrior, he's gone
:28:00. > :28:06.into battle for us and he's won but He's like probably a lot
:28:07. > :28:11.of returned soldiers whose experience they don't
:28:12. > :28:12.necessarily internally The other sort of superhero movie
:28:13. > :28:22.that was very knowing, in a slightly different way, was
:28:23. > :28:24.Deadpool, which took the mick out of And I just wonder, there's been talk
:28:25. > :28:31.possibly of bringing back Logan one last time with a Deadpool
:28:32. > :28:34.connection as well. Those two characters,
:28:35. > :28:36.Deadpool and Logan, famously intertwined in the comic books -
:28:37. > :28:39.they hate each other, they are archenemies and they are kind
:28:40. > :28:42.of perfect counterparts. I knew two and a half
:28:43. > :28:48.years ago that this was my last one, and I couldn't have
:28:49. > :28:51.made this movie unless Someone else will play Wolverine,
:28:52. > :28:55.but Ryan Reynolds has been camping outside my house
:28:56. > :29:01.and he's there right now! OK, one historic character
:29:02. > :29:06.is Jean Valjean. You came quite close
:29:07. > :29:08.to an Oscar for that and I think the singing was never
:29:09. > :29:34.recorded, it had to be I'm really glad I've
:29:35. > :29:43.done things like hosting the Oscars live, I'm glad I've had
:29:44. > :29:46.opening nights here at That kind of pressure
:29:47. > :29:49.where you have got to All the press is in and
:29:50. > :29:53.the success or failure when you host the Oscars
:29:54. > :29:57.is on how you deliver on that day, not how
:29:58. > :29:59.you will deliver four shows I may never sing that song again -
:30:00. > :30:05.I'd better deliver today. The X-Men movies
:30:06. > :30:06.have made you such a whatever you want, so what do
:30:07. > :30:13.you want to do next? Being involved in stories that
:30:14. > :30:16.I believe in, that I fight for, that I think
:30:17. > :30:18.of something to say, that challenge me as an actor
:30:19. > :30:21.is an addictive feeling. I haven't always felt
:30:22. > :30:23.like this, but right now Thanks very much indeed
:30:24. > :30:32.for talking to us. The central message
:30:33. > :30:41.of Theresa May's brand of Toryism - and in her view, the Tory victory
:30:42. > :30:43.in this week's Copeland by-election - is that it's the Conservatives
:30:44. > :30:46.who best represent the interests But do the figures
:30:47. > :30:50.really bear that out? As Tory MPs brace themselves
:30:51. > :30:52.for new cuts in benefits to the disabled, the party chairman
:30:53. > :31:05.Patrick McLoughlin joins me. Welcome, you are the quintessential
:31:06. > :31:10.working-class Tory. Do you think the Tory party is now the party of the
:31:11. > :31:13.bottom dog and the working class? I think what Theresa May is doing as
:31:14. > :31:18.Prime Minister is trying to say to those parts of the country which
:31:19. > :31:22.feel left behind that we've got to offer opportunities to them and
:31:23. > :31:25.offer opportunities to every section of our society, irrespective of
:31:26. > :31:31.where they come from, if they do the right thing. What was the problem
:31:32. > :31:35.with the phrase "Just about managing?", there is a report in the
:31:36. > :31:42.Sun newspaper that it is banned in government, and you cannot talk
:31:43. > :31:47.about the JAMS any more. I'm not sure I believe everything that you
:31:48. > :31:53.read in newspapers! What? Not in The Sun newspaper? Or in any! When
:31:54. > :31:57.Theresa May entered Downing Street, she does want to... If you are
:31:58. > :32:01.struggling to manage, I'm on your side. If you are in financial
:32:02. > :32:06.problems, I'm on your side, I want to pick that up with you. An
:32:07. > :32:10.interesting report this week from the Resolution Foundation, working
:32:11. > :32:15.on official government figures. This is the forecast income growth during
:32:16. > :32:21.the Parliament. The richest households, the green bed, going up
:32:22. > :32:26.4% in real income growth. The poorest down by 16%. A devastating
:32:27. > :32:30.indictment of a government claiming to be working on behalf of the
:32:31. > :32:34.working people. One of the things we are doing, in April, the base rate
:32:35. > :32:39.of tax, people earning less than ?11,000, they will not pay any
:32:40. > :32:44.income tax at all. These are big issues... They are factored in at
:32:45. > :32:47.the moment but lest well on this at the moment, are you embarrassed by
:32:48. > :32:59.the graft? C if it comes into progression. -- lets see if it comes
:33:00. > :33:04.into fruition. Those people getting below wages, we will reduce the tax
:33:05. > :33:08.they pay. By and large, in the bottom quartile on that graph in
:33:09. > :33:12.terms of income, you face a tough few years in this government? And
:33:13. > :33:15.that is why we must ensure what we are doing as far as giving people
:33:16. > :33:20.apprenticeships and helping people who are not working at the moment,
:33:21. > :33:24.into work, we have record employment rates, and they will help people
:33:25. > :33:31.across the board. Judge us on our record, not on what an organisation
:33:32. > :33:34.says might happen in three years' time... Albeit based on official
:33:35. > :33:39.figures? Because things will change. Let's look at things that you could
:33:40. > :33:42.do. ?3 billion, thereabouts, was taken out of universal credit by
:33:43. > :33:48.George Osborne which has a serious effect. I'm quitting the Resolution
:33:49. > :33:52.Foundation again, but using government figures, a working couple
:33:53. > :33:58.with two children, earning the living wage, will be ?1700 per year
:33:59. > :34:02.worse off by 2020? We must reduce the deficit and still had a big
:34:03. > :34:06.deficit in the country. Why on the backs of those people? We must look
:34:07. > :34:11.at the whole area and reward those who work. That is what we are doing,
:34:12. > :34:15.raising the threshold that you start paying income tax at, and look at
:34:16. > :34:19.other measures. They are the things that will be looked at in the round
:34:20. > :34:23.by the Chancellor, coming up to the budget in ten days. Can you look at
:34:24. > :34:27.universal credit cuts again? The truth is, we are spending a lot of
:34:28. > :34:32.money on benefits overall, and we need to balance the books and get
:34:33. > :34:35.the deficit down. Iain Duncan Smith, no hand wringing lefty, I think you
:34:36. > :34:41.would agree, sat in the chair when he resigned from the government, and
:34:42. > :34:45.said it is not fair. Given the extra income for those at the top of the
:34:46. > :34:50.heap, universal credit is not fair and must change. Can you look at it
:34:51. > :34:53.again? He actually agreed to that when he was the Work and Pensions
:34:54. > :34:57.Secretary, he did not object to changes being made then. I think
:34:58. > :35:01.Theresa May and the Chancellor, and Damian Green, they will want to look
:35:02. > :35:06.at all of these issues in the round. You think it will be looked at
:35:07. > :35:11.again? We always keep all policies under review. This is the front page
:35:12. > :35:15.of the Financial Times from Saturday, may faces disability
:35:16. > :35:20.benefits battle. This is in all of their papers -- Theresa May. Massive
:35:21. > :35:23.cuts to the welfare budgets, these are people having a tough time
:35:24. > :35:28.already and you will take money that they thought they would get? As a
:35:29. > :35:31.country we spend over ?50 billion per year supporting people who've
:35:32. > :35:36.got disabilities in this country. I think overall we give a very
:35:37. > :35:41.generous scheme, and there are changes which come about as a result
:35:42. > :35:45.of tribunal 's and we must look at how it addresses the whole effect.
:35:46. > :35:50.As far as supporting disabled people? Overall I think we should be
:35:51. > :35:55.very proud in this country. We are taking ?3.7 billion away from them.
:35:56. > :35:59.The disability rights UK, the lobbying body on this, they say new
:36:00. > :36:02.regulations will hit disabled people and those with serious conditions
:36:03. > :36:08.very hard. The department itself admits that these will include, for
:36:09. > :36:10.double, those with learning disabilities, die abilities,
:36:11. > :36:19.epilepsy, anxiety and dementia, those with dementia will lose money
:36:20. > :36:22.under the government -- diabetes. We will listen to what people are
:36:23. > :36:27.saying and look at proposals which come forward. But we need to
:36:28. > :36:34.produce... Over ?60 billion are being spent every year as a country
:36:35. > :36:38.and we need to balance the budget and reduce the deficit. Let me turn
:36:39. > :36:43.to another issue. I do not know if you heard Gina Miller talking in the
:36:44. > :36:47.paper review about the moment in the House of Lords and Lord Heseltine,
:36:48. > :36:50.there's a push there to get written into legislation a much tougher
:36:51. > :36:55.agreement for a further vote towards the end of the negotiation process
:36:56. > :36:59.for Brexit. If that happens and the government loses in the House of
:37:00. > :37:04.Lords, what will you do? We need to see how the bill evolves when it is
:37:05. > :37:09.out the House of Lords. But it got one of the biggest majority a bill
:37:10. > :37:12.has got on its third reading in the House of Commons and it has gone to
:37:13. > :37:16.the House of Lords. The Prime Minister said that there would be a
:37:17. > :37:19.vote when negotiations are concluded and the Prime Minister will not
:37:20. > :37:25.conclude negotiations if she thinks she has a bad deal. Is it worth
:37:26. > :37:29.having a fight about this? Well, I'm not sure we will see whether we will
:37:30. > :37:33.have a fight or not... So you might allow the amended bill to stand? The
:37:34. > :37:40.bill should go through as it comes from the elected House of Commons. I
:37:41. > :37:43.found it interesting that Gina Miller was going on about
:37:44. > :37:46.sovereignty, the House of Commons over woman you passed a bill based
:37:47. > :37:52.on the referendum that said we should pull out of the EU --
:37:53. > :37:58.overwhelmingly passed a bill. We cannot start second guessing the
:37:59. > :38:01.referendum. A lot of MPs and ordinary voters think if the
:38:02. > :38:06.situation changes, there are changes to the economy, if we do not get the
:38:07. > :38:08.deal that many people want to go through, in those circumstances
:38:09. > :38:13.there should be some sort of exit route and slipway off the motorway?
:38:14. > :38:20.The Prime Minister will not come back through the House of Commons
:38:21. > :38:24.with a deal that she cannot recommend. So, that's what we've got
:38:25. > :38:29.to do. Give the Prime Minister as much Flex ability in negotiations
:38:30. > :38:32.over these next two years, not giving her a backstop into other
:38:33. > :38:36.issues. We've talked about the by-elections during the programme.
:38:37. > :38:40.One thing people thought, whether they were just about managing or
:38:41. > :38:44.not, that the government was on their side about immigration and
:38:45. > :38:48.control of it. Then they heard David Davis in a stone yet this week,
:38:49. > :38:51.saying it would be years and years before we could persuade the British
:38:52. > :38:57.people to do some jobs in agriculture -- in
:38:58. > :39:04.Estonia. And not to expected downturn in immigration for some
:39:05. > :39:07.years to come. Many people would be disturbed by that? We have figures
:39:08. > :39:12.in the last week about a reduction as far as net immigration to a
:39:13. > :39:16.country as far as previous figures were concerned. So, I think we need
:39:17. > :39:21.to see how it is done and not take one small part of an completely out
:39:22. > :39:26.of context. David is very committed to the Prime Minister's agenda which
:39:27. > :39:27.is ensuring that we get control over our own borders, one of the biggest
:39:28. > :39:36.issues in the referendum. Is it the case that you are looking
:39:37. > :39:40.at a complex system of visas for migrants to stop people from taking
:39:41. > :39:46.benefits? We are looking at a lot of things, which are being discussed,
:39:47. > :39:51.when we can make announcements about what we will do, we will tell you
:39:52. > :39:54.and the House of Commons too. After Copeland, how big are your ambitions
:39:55. > :40:00.for taking on the Labour Party in the north and the Midlands? Copeland
:40:01. > :40:04.was a fantastic result, both for the Prime Minister and Trudy Harrison, a
:40:05. > :40:13.local candidate who brought a great deal of local expertise to the
:40:14. > :40:16.campaign. I think it shows that all seats are ones that we will look at
:40:17. > :40:22.and challenge hard in the general election. You would not expect me,
:40:23. > :40:26.as the Conservative Party chairman, to say that. There is no numerical
:40:27. > :40:31.target. We will target right across the board. The simple fact is, at
:40:32. > :40:35.the moment, boundaries are being redrawn and the size of the House of
:40:36. > :40:39.Commons is to be reduced. We are not sure where the boundaries will be. A
:40:40. > :40:43.lot of talk about Donald Trump's visit, will he be an appropriate
:40:44. > :40:49.guest at the Conservative Party conference this year? I don't know,
:40:50. > :40:53.arrangements for the dates have not yet been finalised! But he is
:40:54. > :40:56.certainly getting the media talking quite a lot about him! Patrick
:40:57. > :40:58.McLoughlin, thank you for talking to us.
:40:59. > :41:00.Now, coming up later, Andrew Neil will be talking
:41:01. > :41:02.about those by-elections and more with Scottish Labour
:41:03. > :41:04.leader Kezia Dugdale, and he'll be asking where next
:41:05. > :41:06.for Ukip, with the MEP Patrick O'Flynn.
:41:07. > :41:12.That's the Sunday Politics at 11 here on BBC One.
:41:13. > :41:14.Now, Jeremy Corbyn was asked on Friday if he'd
:41:15. > :41:17.considered that he might be the source of Labour's problems.
:41:18. > :41:21.So, why did Labour suffer its worst by-election defeat for 50 years?
:41:22. > :41:26.The shadow Attorney General Baroness Chakrabarti is with me.
:41:27. > :41:32.Welcome, Shami Chakrabarti. We could have a very boring interview, where
:41:33. > :41:37.I say it is all Jeremy Corbyn's fault and he has to go. And you say,
:41:38. > :41:40.no. So we won't do that! And everybody wanders off and has a cup
:41:41. > :41:46.of coffee! Let's be serious about it. How Depay hole do you think you
:41:47. > :41:51.are in when you look at the Copeland result? I was there last weekend,
:41:52. > :41:55.knocking on doors. I felt that Copeland is probably one of those
:41:56. > :42:00.constituencies that was neglected by my own party over some years. It is
:42:01. > :42:06.remote from London, it has changed its shape. Over many years. There is
:42:07. > :42:12.the nuclear in, people have done very well from it. And, the people
:42:13. > :42:18.left behind. -- there are people left behind. You cannot way people's
:42:19. > :42:23.votes, you have to cherish them. We lost by 2000, but I believe that
:42:24. > :42:28.when people see what Theresa May's hard Brexit looks like and when
:42:29. > :42:34.people see an alternative vision coming from the more united Labour
:42:35. > :42:38.Party, as I believe that we could key, they would change their minds.
:42:39. > :42:41.Jeremy Corbyn basically said it was against the establishment, it
:42:42. > :42:46.doesn't really make sense... It does, in Copeland. But if those
:42:47. > :42:52.turning against the establishment, why would they vote for Theresa May
:42:53. > :42:54.and the Conservative Party? In Copeland, Labour looks like the
:42:55. > :43:00.establishment for a long time because they were represented by
:43:01. > :43:06.Labour for a long time. There are peculiarities about that seat, like
:43:07. > :43:10.our position on the nuclear industry, but I don't want to make
:43:11. > :43:15.it specifically about Copeland. We have work to do and suffered from
:43:16. > :43:20.disunity, two elections in the space of a year. We suffered from the fact
:43:21. > :43:24.that our supporters were divided, like the country, over Brexit. It
:43:25. > :43:29.has been a big issue for some time but now, I think once Article 50 is
:43:30. > :43:33.triggered, as it will be, we have an opportunity to unite about things
:43:34. > :43:37.that really matter to the lives of people. Like schools, hospitals,
:43:38. > :43:41.jobs and benefits. Like terrible cuts in the disability benefits.
:43:42. > :43:46.Something strange is happening here. On the NHS and is ability benefits,
:43:47. > :43:52.you have messages where really people care about this but when
:43:53. > :43:55.Labour talks about it, it does not cut through. Something is going
:43:56. > :44:00.wrong between the Labour Party and the country. On cutting through, we
:44:01. > :44:04.have suffered, as I say, from disunity. If we are always talking
:44:05. > :44:08.about the leadership and fighting over it, it will not cut through.
:44:09. > :44:11.Sometimes we have not had the most fair or balanced treatment in the
:44:12. > :44:16.media, including the broadcast media. As you know, the left has
:44:17. > :44:20.always said it is the media... I'm not blaming the media but the
:44:21. > :44:25.disunity has been the focus was even on your programme last week, a few
:44:26. > :44:30.days before a by-election in two Brexit seats, there was not a single
:44:31. > :44:35.person on the programme speaking for the leadership. There was well
:44:36. > :44:40.represented Labour MP in the paper review... And you have Lord
:44:41. > :44:45.Mandelson... You are allowed whoever it you like, but if I may say so, it
:44:46. > :44:46.was not the fairest balance a few days before a by-election into
:44:47. > :44:52.Labour Brexit seats. Except law. days before a by-election into
:44:53. > :44:57.Labour Brexit seats. Except Lord Mandelson and Tony Blair, and that
:44:58. > :45:01.regime, they won majorities time and again. It is not about the terrible
:45:02. > :45:07.regime but about the fact that representatives cannot way people's
:45:08. > :45:10.votes any more. My experience, from talking to people in Copeland, they
:45:11. > :45:16.felt they were neglected for too long. Taken for granted by the
:45:17. > :45:20.Labour Party? For too long. That will not happen. Jack Remy is right,
:45:21. > :45:24.when part of what worked for Labour in Stoke was listening to people and
:45:25. > :45:26.listening to their concerns, not about Jeremy Corbyn but about the
:45:27. > :45:31.fact that instead, people want social housing and, in Copeland,
:45:32. > :45:32.people do not have adequate roads and now the hospital is under
:45:33. > :45:42.threat. Let me read you Dave Prentice, an
:45:43. > :45:50.apartment figure in the Labour movement who said, Stoke should
:45:51. > :45:54.never have been in doubt. Party has inflicted seven years of painful
:45:55. > :46:01.spending cuts on our country and is disaster in the NHS. Last year I
:46:02. > :46:05.said Labour have never been further from government, five months on the
:46:06. > :46:09.party has not moved an inch closer to Downing Street. Copeland is
:46:10. > :46:13.indicative of a party sliding towards irrelevance, and that is on
:46:14. > :46:17.your watch and Jeremy Corbyn's watch. What I would say to Dave
:46:18. > :46:22.Prentice and some of these other great men of the left is it is time
:46:23. > :46:25.to unite. Because constant attacks on the leadership, constant
:46:26. > :46:34.leadership elections, constant divisions don't attack the issues
:46:35. > :46:40.that would allowus to present an alternative vision. He was
:46:41. > :46:43.describing what's happening, he was describing reality. Some people say
:46:44. > :46:48.you are all frankly distanced from reality, hiding from what is really
:46:49. > :46:53.going on. I don't accept that. I have just talked to you for some
:46:54. > :46:58.minutes about what I think is happening in Copeland. People are
:46:59. > :47:00.feeling neglected and left behind by their representatives, including
:47:01. > :47:08.Labour representatives, for too long. Whether it is Jack Dromey or
:47:09. > :47:10.Jeremy Corbyn, the party is in listening mode but it won't be able
:47:11. > :47:16.to put that into practice unless it unites. We have seen a whole series
:47:17. > :47:23.of excuses about Copeland. It is not an excuse. You yourself said I think
:47:24. > :47:31.we have suffered from storm Doris because Labour voters don't have as
:47:32. > :47:34.many cars and cannot vote. We have had by-election is the many years
:47:35. > :47:41.and somehow members have come out and managed to win for many years.
:47:42. > :47:46.There was a lower turnout in Copeland, and having been there
:47:47. > :47:49.recently I know it is a very rural constituency, public transport isn't
:47:50. > :47:54.great but that's one factor, and of course its not the entire
:47:55. > :47:59.explanation. Let's look at Stoke where you defeated Ukip, however one
:48:00. > :48:04.of the key claims of the Jeremy Corbyn movement has been... It is
:48:05. > :48:10.not a movement. Pro-Corbyn people, as it were. That wing of the party,
:48:11. > :48:17.by growing the party membership so hugely you put Labour into a
:48:18. > :48:20.position where you are one of the biggest parties in Europe but you
:48:21. > :48:26.don't be able to translate that into getting more voters out. The big
:48:27. > :48:29.membership but fewer voters. What I would say about activating the
:48:30. > :48:33.membership is that in Stoke hundreds of members from around the country
:48:34. > :48:38.went to Stoke and I'm sure that was of help to the team there in getting
:48:39. > :48:42.the vote out. Copeland a bit more remote, we had fewer people on the
:48:43. > :48:47.ground but I do still think that having a mass membership can be
:48:48. > :48:56.translated. Even if people recruit or persuade colleagues and family
:48:57. > :49:00.members, that is part of... Stoke, more nonvoters than any constituency
:49:01. > :49:04.in the general election just passed, again the number of people voting
:49:05. > :49:07.Labour went down. That big part of the ship did not translate into
:49:08. > :49:13.getting nonparty members into the ballot box. I think you are right
:49:14. > :49:18.and the reasons partly we suffer from disunity, we suffered from
:49:19. > :49:22.being split over Brexit. Our supporters and constituencies, like
:49:23. > :49:26.the country, they are split but now we move beyond that divisive issue
:49:27. > :49:33.the questions for this country are about what kind of place it will be.
:49:34. > :49:37.It was going to be a place where dementia don't get the benefits the
:49:38. > :49:42.tribunal say they can get because the Labour Party are party for the
:49:43. > :49:45.super rich and not the working people? When it comes to explaining
:49:46. > :49:50.what happened on looking forward, Tom Watson said the whole leadership
:49:51. > :49:55.has to take a long, hard look in the mirror. If it is not Jeremy Corbyn
:49:56. > :50:00.and Shami Chakrabarti and whoever to blame, then it must be the policies.
:50:01. > :50:04.So where do you see the Labour Party changing its policy positions to
:50:05. > :50:08.show it is listening to people? I think it is not just about policy,
:50:09. > :50:13.sometimes it's about communication and sometimes it's about getting the
:50:14. > :50:17.space and making the space to be heard. We have got some wonderful
:50:18. > :50:23.Shadow Cabinet colleagues who I rarely see get the airtime they
:50:24. > :50:27.deserve. Abby Abrahams, a wonderful Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary,
:50:28. > :50:30.Rebecca Long Bailey on business, a lot of the women actually because
:50:31. > :50:35.it's a very female Shadow Cabinet and it would be nice to have those
:50:36. > :50:39.voices heard on your programme. We have them on from time to time, we
:50:40. > :50:45.have everyone on from time to time. No doubt more in the future. One of
:50:46. > :50:50.the other things is the suggestion the Labour Party in London, the
:50:51. > :50:54.Metropolitan elite are out of touch on kind of cultural and security
:50:55. > :51:00.issues from Labour voters. You saw the story in the mail on Sunday
:51:01. > :51:05.today about mobile phones. Did you say that? Know, and even the Mail on
:51:06. > :51:10.Sunday in that peace talks about alleged alleged alleged, which is
:51:11. > :51:16.not something you did in your crunchy hard facts paper review so
:51:17. > :51:20.that is an apocryphal story. Mobile phones are not just a problem in
:51:21. > :51:25.prison, they are clearly a problem in militias hands in the Palace of
:51:26. > :51:30.Westminster as well. And you never wanted mobile phones to stay in the
:51:31. > :51:34.hands of... The other thing you have been attacked for in the press
:51:35. > :51:38.recently is being jubilant and enthusiastic when Mr Fidler was
:51:39. > :51:44.released from Guantanamo Bay, he then went on and changed his name
:51:45. > :51:50.and blew himself up we are told working for Isis in Syria. How did
:51:51. > :51:53.you feel about that? I campaigned for the closure of Guantanamo and
:51:54. > :51:58.short of that I campaigned for Britons to be returned from
:51:59. > :52:02.Guantanamo and I did that alongside for example the Mail on Sunday. That
:52:03. > :52:07.was my position and remains my position. That's nothing about being
:52:08. > :52:10.jubilant about individuals. One of the things about internment as a
:52:11. > :52:16.policy is you have no idea whether individuals concerned are guilty or
:52:17. > :52:20.innocent and my belief remains that interning people without trial and
:52:21. > :52:27.torturing them is a recruiting Sergeant for terrorism. Even though
:52:28. > :52:31.in this case someone who was clearly dangerous was left out? If you are
:52:32. > :52:35.not dangerous before you get interned and mistreated, you are
:52:36. > :52:38.more likely to be dangerous afterwards. It was a bad policy in
:52:39. > :52:43.Northern Ireland and remains a really bad policy in Guantanamo Bay.
:52:44. > :52:48.Final question on the by-election results. I've talked to a lot of
:52:49. > :52:52.people inside the Labour Party across the party and there's a lot
:52:53. > :52:57.of real anxiety and fear about where the Labour Party is going, and they
:52:58. > :53:03.say again and again, and the leadership is in denial. I have
:53:04. > :53:07.tried to speak about the real issue is going back a long time, I don't
:53:08. > :53:12.consider myself to be in denial, but I think some of the people you are
:53:13. > :53:16.talking to need to take their share of the collective responsibility as
:53:17. > :53:20.well. If we unite and concentrate on going forward, on what we should be,
:53:21. > :53:26.which is about part of it goes back to its roots, a party of equality,
:53:27. > :53:33.for the NHS, schools and hospitals and disability benefits for ordinary
:53:34. > :53:35.people, we will do very much better. Just in case Rebecca Long Bailey is
:53:36. > :53:39.watching this programme, she has been invited on the programme and so
:53:40. > :53:45.far has been unable to come. I will pass that on. Thank you, we are
:53:46. > :53:48.almost out of time today. But before we leave you I'm
:53:49. > :53:51.delighted to say we've got a true Ever since the early 80s,
:53:52. > :53:55.Marc Almond has provided a unique soundtrack to surviving a crazy
:53:56. > :53:58.world of love and heartache. Solo and with Soft Cell he's had
:53:59. > :54:10.countless hits such as these... # Sometimes I feel I've got to
:54:11. > :54:14.# Runaway, I've got to # Getaway from the pain you drive
:54:15. > :54:24.into the heart of me. # Say hello, say goodbye #
:54:25. > :54:26.# Something's gotten hold of my heart
:54:27. > :54:37.# Something's gotten into my life and my senses apart
:54:38. > :54:39.Soft Cells' greatest hits will be released next month.
:54:40. > :54:42.Before he heads off on a national tour, the man himself
:54:43. > :54:53.It's great to see you. You had a nasty head injury, you came off the
:54:54. > :54:57.back of a motorbike, are you all right? I'm fine, it was about 15
:54:58. > :55:06.years ago and it seems like all that time has gone since then, which is
:55:07. > :55:13.why I do good work for Headway. So do I. You will be singing one of
:55:14. > :55:23.your great songs, one that you wrote yourself, a kind of old-fashioned
:55:24. > :55:28.ballad. I think it is probably Soft Cell's first real song. When I had
:55:29. > :55:32.in mind, I wrote the lyrics about kind of a politician's illicit
:55:33. > :55:41.affair with shall we say an exotic dancer and how he treats her very
:55:42. > :55:49.badly. Sounds like Appletree Yard! Set in Soho, the pink flamingo. We
:55:50. > :55:53.are looking forward to it very much. Hits And Pieces out on the 15th of
:55:54. > :56:01.March. from Nicky Campbell about what's
:56:02. > :56:14.coming up after this programme. At ten o'clock we will be talking
:56:15. > :56:15.about Islam, do we represent it, reincarnation, and marriage. See you
:56:16. > :56:18.at ten on BBC One. Thanks Nicky, now as promised
:56:19. > :56:21.here to sing us out is Marc Almond with the classic Say Hello,
:56:22. > :56:25.Wave Goodbye. # Crying in the rain
:56:26. > :56:32.of the Pink Flamingo # It was a kind
:56:33. > :56:37.of so-so love and # I'm gonna make sure
:56:38. > :56:41.it never happens again # You and I, it had to be
:56:42. > :56:53.the standing joke of the year # You were a sleep around,
:56:54. > :56:57.a lost-and-found, and not for me # I fear I tried to make it work,
:56:58. > :57:08.you in a cocktail skirt, # I don't belong to you,
:57:09. > :57:19.you see # Take a look at my
:57:20. > :57:26.face for the last time # I never knew you, you never
:57:27. > :57:30.knew me # I can see the make-up sliding
:57:31. > :57:58.down # Hey little girl,
:57:59. > :58:00.you will always make-up, # Well, I'll find someone that's not
:58:01. > :58:11.going cheap in the sales # A nice little housewife,
:58:12. > :58:15.who'll give me a steady life # I don't belong to you,
:58:16. > :58:30.you see # Take a look at my
:58:31. > :58:39.face for the last time # I never knew you, you never
:58:40. > :58:43.knew me