:00:00. > :00:00.Theresa May now has her finger hovering over the button
:00:07. > :00:10.which will take us out of the European Union.
:00:11. > :00:13.As she prepares to hit it, all four of her living predecessors
:00:14. > :00:17.are standing in the wings watching on in horror.
:00:18. > :00:20.But, of course, it's far too late for any of them
:00:21. > :00:39.to do anything about it. Or is it?
:00:40. > :00:43.And that's really the central question.
:00:44. > :00:46.Tony Blair is back making a new intervention in British politics.
:00:47. > :00:50.I'm also joined by Britain's most popular political leader,
:00:51. > :00:57.after a week which has seen Edinburgh and London in a fierce war
:00:58. > :01:02.of words over Scotland's next independence referendum.
:01:03. > :01:05.But we're not forgetting the wild dramas of American politics.
:01:06. > :01:08.I'm joined by Mark Thompson, one time Director General of the BBC,
:01:09. > :01:10.but now the Chief Executive of the New York Times.
:01:11. > :01:12.What's it like being on the receiving end
:01:13. > :01:24.You might think this all needs satire rather
:01:25. > :01:28.than conversational examination, but the political comics are thin
:01:29. > :01:32.on the ground compared to the Thatcher years.
:01:33. > :01:34.I've been talking to Griff Rhys Jones, 35 years
:01:35. > :01:38.on from Not The Nine O'Clock News, about his old comedy
:01:39. > :01:42.partner, Mel Smith, and about his return to the stage.
:01:43. > :01:45.And we'll be ending this week's show - as usual -
:01:46. > :01:55.Reviewing the news this morning, the Scottish commentator
:01:56. > :02:00.The man responsible for nailing the Conservatives over
:02:01. > :02:03.their election expenses scandal, Michael Crick of Channel 4 News.
:02:04. > :02:05.And attempting to keep us all in check, Amanda Platell
:02:06. > :02:12.That's all after the news read for us this morning by Tina Daheley.
:02:13. > :02:18.Tributes are being paid to the rock and roll pioneer Chuck Berry,
:02:19. > :02:21.who's died at the age of 90 at his home in Missouri.
:02:22. > :02:24.David Sillito looks back at his life.
:02:25. > :02:27.# Deep down in Louisiana close to new Orleans
:02:28. > :02:30.# Way back up in the woods among the evergreens
:02:31. > :02:34.# There stood a log cabin made of earth and wood
:02:35. > :02:36.# There lived a country boy called Johnny B Goode.
:02:37. > :02:47.# There's a jumping little record I want my jockey to play...
:02:48. > :02:53.If any one person could claim to have invented rock and
:02:54. > :03:01.Take rhythm and blues, mix it with country and then add
:03:02. > :03:03.electric guitar and sing about the stuff that
:03:04. > :03:09.Half of the young people go to school.
:03:10. > :03:13.And I wrote about the life. Half of the people have cars.
:03:14. > :03:16.And mostly all people, if they're not now, they'll
:03:17. > :03:21.Charles Berry was born in St Louis, Missouri.
:03:22. > :03:23.As a teenager he spent time in prison for
:03:24. > :03:26.He married young, trained as a hairdresser.
:03:27. > :03:34.It was Muddy Waters who suggested he record a
:03:35. > :03:41.Of course he was only one of many rock and roll pioneers.
:03:42. > :03:44.And another spell in prison, a conviction for
:03:45. > :03:47.immorality with a 14-year-old girl, halted his career.
:03:48. > :03:50.# Up in the morning and out to school...
:03:51. > :03:54.When he re-emerged, he discovered that his sound was
:03:55. > :03:57.America. He was though something of a loner.
:03:58. > :04:01.He would often turn up and play with whoever was around.
:04:02. > :04:04.Sometimes he wouldn't even hand out a set list.
:04:05. > :04:07.He knew everyone would know the songs.
:04:08. > :04:12.And he wasn't always easy to get on with.
:04:13. > :04:15.But as John Lennon said, "If you wanted to give rock
:04:16. > :04:26.and roll another name, you might call it Chuck Berry."
:04:27. > :04:30.NHS services are facing a 2mission impossible" to meet the standards
:04:31. > :04:33.required by the Government - that's according to the organisation
:04:34. > :04:42.NHS Providers says the money allocated for the next financial
:04:43. > :04:45.year is not enough to meet growing patient demand, and targets like
:04:46. > :04:50.And you can see an interview with the chief executive of NHS
:04:51. > :04:53.Providers, Chris Hopson, on the Sunday Politics
:04:54. > :05:00.Victims of sexual assault won't have to go through the ordeal of giving
:05:01. > :05:02.evidence in court under changes being brought forward
:05:03. > :05:09.From September, the cross-examination of alleged victims
:05:10. > :05:12.will be pre-recorded and played to the jury.
:05:13. > :05:15.It follows a trial involving child victims who said the system made
:05:16. > :05:20.them feel less pressured and better able to recall events.
:05:21. > :05:23.North Korea's state media says its military has tested a new
:05:24. > :05:28.The announcement came during a visit to China
:05:29. > :05:32.by the US Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson.
:05:33. > :05:36.Mr Tillerson told China's President Xi Jinping that President Trump
:05:37. > :05:37.looks forward to "enhancing understanding" between
:05:38. > :05:44.The Parliamentary Committee on Standards in Public Life
:05:45. > :05:47.is to examine the practice of MPs taking other jobs, at
:05:48. > :05:53.The committee will discuss whether the rules need to be
:05:54. > :05:55.tightened after the former Chancellor, George Osborne,
:05:56. > :05:59.was announced as the new editor of the London Evening Standard.
:06:00. > :06:02.Mr Osborne says he intends to stay on as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,
:06:03. > :06:11.The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.
:06:12. > :06:19.And I'm sure many Tory MPs are issuing warm Private banks to Mr
:06:20. > :06:31.Osborne for that change. A disturbing story about a new drug
:06:32. > :06:35.being linked to birth defects and the shadow of the word thalidomide
:06:36. > :06:42.is hanging over that story. Also, the Chancellor in trouble from
:06:43. > :06:46.Brexit ministers. The Sunday Times has a story about changing the law
:06:47. > :06:51.to allow rape victims to give evidence by video rather than in
:06:52. > :06:58.court. And George Osborne scuppers second jobs for MPs. The Observer
:06:59. > :07:04.has a cross-party alliance forming to fight Theresa May on grammar
:07:05. > :07:08.schools. She is in a bit of trouble from Tory backbenchers. Another
:07:09. > :07:12.picture of the great Chuck Berry. Finally, The Mail on Sunday, and
:07:13. > :07:17.abortion story saying let mothers abort babies of the wrong sex. A new
:07:18. > :07:23.scandal, they say. Lots of pictures of the Duchess of Cornwall in all of
:07:24. > :07:29.the papers. Let's start with the big political news of the week, the
:07:30. > :07:32.fight between Edinburgh and London over the second Scottish
:07:33. > :07:37.Independence Referendum. Nicola Sturgeon saying, here is my
:07:38. > :07:42.timetable. Theresa May saying, no, you can't do that. It has become
:07:43. > :07:47.personal quite quickly. It is quite extraordinary. Handbags at dawn.
:07:48. > :07:51.Both of these women you thought were mild-mannered. Now we have a war of
:07:52. > :07:58.words. It's quite interesting if you look at it from a north of the
:07:59. > :08:03.border perspective. Newspapers just can't stop defining women by their
:08:04. > :08:08.footwear. The Sunday Times has put together a rather nice one. Probably
:08:09. > :08:16.the more relevant one is the Sunday Herald front page. It refers to
:08:17. > :08:19.Nicola Sturgeon's speech yesterday and it says there will be a second
:08:20. > :08:25.referendum. Most people agree there are now well. Timing is everything.
:08:26. > :08:31.Does it happen after we have left the EU or before? Is this because
:08:32. > :08:35.the Scottish government want for there to be some possibility of a
:08:36. > :08:40.back door re-entry to the EU if they have the area referendum? Whereas
:08:41. > :08:45.once we have left, that is it. Absolutely. It wasn't an accident,
:08:46. > :08:49.that window. At that point, according to Nicola Sturgeon, we
:08:50. > :08:53.will know pretty well what the shape of Brexit will look like. But
:08:54. > :08:58.crucially the UK would not be outside the EU. She hopes that gives
:08:59. > :09:01.her enough wiggle room to stay within, maybe not within the EU, but
:09:02. > :09:09.access to the single market, perhaps. Andrew Roberts the caught
:09:10. > :09:15.your eye in the Observer. He is interesting. It makes the point that
:09:16. > :09:20.here are two women who have the Dial set to caution. Both have taken huge
:09:21. > :09:24.gambles not just with their parties and the union, but with their own
:09:25. > :09:31.career. None of them can afford to lose a Scottish referendum. Very
:09:32. > :09:34.interesting. We now have on cue, Gordon Brown. John Major writing in
:09:35. > :09:40.the papers. Tony Blair on the programme. Gordon Brown with a new
:09:41. > :09:44.proposal for a new federal system of Britain? Sounds like we have been
:09:45. > :09:47.here before. Gordon Brown basically saying that rather than
:09:48. > :09:51.independence, Scotland should have more devolution. I think Gordon
:09:52. > :09:59.Brown has said that the number previous occasions, notably the Val
:10:00. > :10:04.just before the 2014 referendum. -- avowal. This time he says further
:10:05. > :10:08.powers to be transferred to the Scottish government might be the
:10:09. > :10:14.setting of VAT rates, the power to set international treaties and
:10:15. > :10:19.control over fisheries etc. There will be hardly anything left,
:10:20. > :10:24.really. I must ask Ruth, is this a flyer? Della Mark Wright don't think
:10:25. > :10:32.so for a moment. This is on a loop. We have had this before. The other
:10:33. > :10:35.thing to bear in mind is if these ideas were to be enacted, they would
:10:36. > :10:41.have to be enacted by a Labour government. Reading the polls there
:10:42. > :10:46.doesn't seem to be one coming along very soon. Can I just say that it is
:10:47. > :10:52.quite bizarre and quite ironic that the people who brought us Brexit are
:10:53. > :10:57.talking about how divisive referenda are, how they bring uncertainty. I
:10:58. > :11:07.mean, please. Amanda, you have a story from the Sanaa. -- the sun
:11:08. > :11:13.newspaper. This is Ruth Davidson saying she -- showing she wants to
:11:14. > :11:18.remain in the European Union. Best line of attack was that Nicola
:11:19. > :11:22.Sturgeon and Alex Salmond have been storming the barricades but not
:11:23. > :11:29.minding the shop. She claims Nicola Sturgeon has overspent by ?1
:11:30. > :11:34.billion. They are struggling with schools, hospitals, farmers, all
:11:35. > :11:39.these key areas that she -- that part of what she's doing tactically
:11:40. > :11:43.is trying divert attention away from domestic chaos. Michael Crick, you
:11:44. > :11:49.are a bad man, you have caused a lot of trouble for the government in the
:11:50. > :11:52.past weeks and months, and you lead the way on the battlebus macro
:11:53. > :12:00.story, which has resulted in this large fine. There is a big spread in
:12:01. > :12:04.The Mail on Sunday. This was a story about how, at the 2015 general
:12:05. > :12:10.election, and in three by-elections, the Conservatives spent a lot more
:12:11. > :12:16.than the rules allowed them in winning certain constituency
:12:17. > :12:19.campaigns. In the 2015 general election, that applies in South
:12:20. > :12:24.Thanet, where they were trying to stop Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader,
:12:25. > :12:29.becoming an MP. And in a couple of dozen marginal seats around England,
:12:30. > :12:33.sometimes against the Liberal Democrats, sometimes against Labour.
:12:34. > :12:39.They went around the country with these battle buses, with volunteers
:12:40. > :12:45.on board, Nottingham up on hold -- in hotels. The real expense wasn't
:12:46. > :12:50.the bus but the Hotel bills. They claim it was nothing to do with the
:12:51. > :12:54.campaigns. If you promote a local candidate, tell everybody what his
:12:55. > :12:59.policies are, that counts as a local expense. They tried to claim it was
:13:00. > :13:03.a national expense. This week the electoral commission have said the
:13:04. > :13:10.local expense claims were not high enough and they find the party
:13:11. > :13:14.nationally. In the past there have been transgressions but nobody has
:13:15. > :13:19.done battlebus was on this scale. In the past they have just taken the
:13:20. > :13:21.leaders around or the deputy leader. What has never happened before is
:13:22. > :13:28.taking vast numbers of activists around the country and putting them
:13:29. > :13:34.up in hotels, in some cases booking two hotels. We have had the fine
:13:35. > :13:39.from the electoral commission. Police forces are investigating. Do
:13:40. > :13:44.you think this will lead to by-elections? Theresa May's majority
:13:45. > :13:51.is not enormous. It could lead to a few by-elections. 12 police forces
:13:52. > :13:59.have said -- sound files of evidence to the Crown Prosecution Service is.
:14:00. > :14:04.They cover a couple of dozen MPs. In some cases you may see a
:14:05. > :14:09.prosecution. South Thanet must be a big candidate. The evidence is
:14:10. > :14:12.compelling. And interestingly, today The Mail on Sunday have done more on
:14:13. > :14:22.South Thanet. They say one of Theresa May's key advisers, Nick
:14:23. > :14:25.Timothy, they say that he was rewarded for his work on that
:14:26. > :14:33.campaign by being allowed back on the Conservative candidates list.
:14:34. > :14:45.Ruth Davidson, you have got a story. Ruth Wishart, sorry! You did say
:14:46. > :14:49.Ruth Davidson due too much caffeine! You wait for ages for one former
:14:50. > :14:54.Prime Minister to come along, and this week we have three in quick
:14:55. > :14:58.succession. John Major is feeling quite sore at having been sandbagged
:14:59. > :15:05.by the Brexiteer is. He is saying, the deal offered by the holy Trinity
:15:06. > :15:11.of Brexiteers is a very bad deal indeed and if we have to rely on WTO
:15:12. > :15:14.tariffs and all of that, a lot of Britain's industries will go down
:15:15. > :15:18.the tubes. He is saying it is time for Theresa May to get out from
:15:19. > :15:21.under that kind of pressure from the right wing of the Conservative
:15:22. > :15:28.Party. He has got a constituency to talk to.
:15:29. > :15:37.Meanwhile Theresa May was under George Osborne in the Evening
:15:38. > :15:50.Standard. This is the other amazing story. It is amazing. It is just
:15:51. > :15:55.absolutely extraordinary. We have got almost immediately that the news
:15:56. > :15:58.broke I was having all of these senior backbenchers texting me
:15:59. > :16:09.saying this is George's vendetta against Theresa May. It has caused a
:16:10. > :16:16.lot of amusement, partly because... It must be worrying the Tory party
:16:17. > :16:24.as well. It is, a piece in the Sunday Times talks about this saying
:16:25. > :16:30.it gives him an effective platform to attack her and attack her, he's
:16:31. > :16:37.not a forgiving man and she did unceremoniously sacked him. A lot of
:16:38. > :16:44.people are saying how on earth. Rod Liddle has done a brilliant piece in
:16:45. > :16:49.the Sunday Times... He does divide opinion, but he is saying what on
:16:50. > :16:54.earth does George Osborne know about editing a newspaper? If he thinks he
:16:55. > :16:59.can do it before breakfast, then go off and do his moneymaking... I
:17:00. > :17:04.remember being relatively busy! Maybe I would have been more
:17:05. > :17:11.successful if I hadn't gone into the office so much! I have edited
:17:12. > :17:19.newspapers myself, it is a seven day a week, 24 hour a day job. I think
:17:20. > :17:27.he did edit the university magazine at Oxford. But only once! It is not
:17:28. > :17:33.a heavily resourced newspaper, it will require a lot of ideas. And
:17:34. > :17:40.have the advertisers kept onside? The guy in charge of MPs having
:17:41. > :17:45.second jobs is now investigating this and will take second jobs away
:17:46. > :17:48.from lots of other MPs who are not earning huge amounts of money like
:17:49. > :17:53.George Osborne so he won't be popular at home. The Sunday Express
:17:54. > :17:59.has a story suggesting the Tories are preparing for an early election,
:18:00. > :18:04.do you have any faith in this story? Is it true? No, I don't, it has been
:18:05. > :18:07.bubbling along Saint Theresa May became Prime Minister. They are
:18:08. > :18:18.suggesting the row about election spending is one good reason why
:18:19. > :18:21.calling an election would be in her interest, apart from the fact she
:18:22. > :18:23.only has a Commons majority of 17. A bit more if you add in the
:18:24. > :18:27.Democratic union is from Northern Ireland. And she will have Michael
:18:28. > :18:32.Crick running after her! If she was to have a general election, what
:18:33. > :18:36.would they do about these MPs being investigated by police? Would they
:18:37. > :18:41.say, right, you cannot be candidates, which would cause an
:18:42. > :18:44.outcry? Or carry on with them as candidates which would be equally
:18:45. > :18:51.problematic. I don't see it happening. We have covered a heck of
:18:52. > :18:53.a lot and run out of time so thank you very much indeed.
:18:54. > :18:55.What does Donald Trump think about that famous American
:18:56. > :19:02.They are the "enemy of the American people".
:19:03. > :19:05.And that's on the mornings when he wakes up feeling chirpy.
:19:06. > :19:08.Mark Thompson was Director General of the BBC and is now CEO of this
:19:09. > :19:27.Mark, sad. He came to lunch with us just before Christmas and that
:19:28. > :19:30.morning it was the failing NYI several times. By the time he left
:19:31. > :19:41.he told the media in the lobby that we were a jewel for America and the
:19:42. > :19:46.world. I wonder why the New York Times has been so much in the cross
:19:47. > :19:51.hairs of his anger. Is it because he is a New Yorker and he feels hurt
:19:52. > :19:57.that New York's paper doesn't love him back? In the end you will have
:19:58. > :20:04.to ask him, when you get the chance. I think the boy from Queens, very
:20:05. > :20:09.eager to be accepted by the New York establishment and the New York Times
:20:10. > :20:13.as this citadel in Manhattan, that is part of it, but also I think
:20:14. > :20:18.there is a systematic... Steve Bannon has talked about the true
:20:19. > :20:22.opposition being the media, and I think the New York Times is regarded
:20:23. > :20:33.as the height of the establishment media as well. The personal
:20:34. > :20:40.biographical push as well... In a says you speak to the liberal and
:20:41. > :20:44.financial elites of the West Coast... Nowadays we are reaching
:20:45. > :20:48.150 million people a month, tens of millions of Americans who wouldn't
:20:49. > :20:58.regard themselves as the part of that elite. Is there too much tooth
:20:59. > :21:02.sucking in the fact that so many Americans voted for Trump and your
:21:03. > :21:06.newspaper never thought it would happen, ridiculed him all the way
:21:07. > :21:20.through, and now he is president? The -- it is very hard to predict,
:21:21. > :21:28.New York Times did not predict the trunk victory, virtually no wonder
:21:29. > :21:32.it. Even people in his own circle believed he would lose. Rather like
:21:33. > :21:39.Brexit in this country. Over the course of 2016 and now 2017 we are
:21:40. > :21:44.growing our audience and growing the number of people deeply engaging
:21:45. > :21:48.with us so the idea we are cut off from the whole of the country is
:21:49. > :21:52.undermined by the facts. Are you trying to listen more acutely to
:21:53. > :21:56.West Virginia for instance? We've got reporters across the country and
:21:57. > :21:59.of course I think trying to understand the underlying causes for
:22:00. > :22:05.what's happening and trying to understand the worldview of people
:22:06. > :22:09.who don't live on the two coasts of America, and also trying to explain
:22:10. > :22:13.what's happening in America to the rest of the world because we are
:22:14. > :22:17.seeing a spike in international audiences, partly because so many
:22:18. > :22:22.people in other countries are intrigued. Do you wake up every
:22:23. > :22:29.morning and look at your phone to see what he's tweeted overnight? He
:22:30. > :22:35.seems to be the reader of a physical paper and that seems to be the
:22:36. > :22:38.witching hour. The first time the President-elect directs a tweet
:22:39. > :22:44.which is a direct attack not just on the editorial but the business news
:22:45. > :22:49.of the times... Your audience is collapsing, not true, it is growing,
:22:50. > :22:54.the first time it was a big event but now it is routine. This you have
:22:55. > :23:00.written a lot about fake news and political language, isn't it the
:23:01. > :23:04.case that trunk is a very cute political communicator? He uses the
:23:05. > :23:07.tweets, short sentences to the point, gets his message across and
:23:08. > :23:13.is very good at pushing news he doesn't like to one side? I wrote a
:23:14. > :23:17.book last year specifically about political language and the way high
:23:18. > :23:23.impact incredibly short, very compelling language was winning out
:23:24. > :23:27.over the language of explanation and depth. Donald Trump turned up
:23:28. > :23:32.essentially after I had written the thing but he epitomises the very
:23:33. > :23:36.powerful, informal spontaneous tweets. They are emotionally pitch
:23:37. > :23:44.perfect but they don't tell you much about policy. When it comes to the
:23:45. > :23:49.story about GCHQ accusing him of being part of the attempt to
:23:50. > :23:54.eavesdrop on Trump during the Obama administration, he has not
:23:55. > :23:58.apologised for any of that? Not apologised but not retracted despite
:23:59. > :24:02.a categorical denial by the British. I think the key thing is Donald
:24:03. > :24:07.Trump seems to have a view that he can make things true by saying them,
:24:08. > :24:13.and if he says them, innocence they have a validity and he doesn't
:24:14. > :24:19.really accept that there is a common reality with common facts that we
:24:20. > :24:26.are all bound by. Most conventional politicians... And there is a
:24:27. > :24:33.categorical denial by GCHQ but he simply presses on. So you think he
:24:34. > :24:37.is more of a fantasist than a liar? I think he has a view that he can
:24:38. > :24:41.make things true, and if they are not true today he can make them true
:24:42. > :24:49.tomorrow so it is a demonstration of his immense wealth and also a kind
:24:50. > :24:53.of self obsession which is also very clear when you meet him. You went
:24:54. > :25:00.from one kind of journalism to newspapers, what's your advice for
:25:01. > :25:05.George Osborne? It's a perfect time to join the newspaper industry! I
:25:06. > :25:10.have been an editor, admittedly in television rather than the print
:25:11. > :25:13.media. My experience is done properly it is energetic and
:25:14. > :25:18.time-consuming. It might be tricky to be an MP and a full-time editor
:25:19. > :25:24.at the same time. You would have thought so but he's a man of many
:25:25. > :25:25.gifts so let's see. Mark Thompson, thank you.
:25:26. > :25:28.And so, for those of you who think that America doesn't really
:25:29. > :25:31.It was nice and spring-like, very pleasant, until we were hit
:25:32. > :25:35.by the backwash of the icy storms that hit New York and the rest
:25:36. > :25:39.That's the kind of American import we don't want any more of.
:25:40. > :25:49.Good morning, that storm system from America brought rain and there is
:25:50. > :25:53.more rain in the forecast through the rest of today. All courtesy of
:25:54. > :25:58.this wiggling weather front, and because it is whittling it is not
:25:59. > :26:00.moving through quickly so from Northern Ireland, south-west
:26:01. > :26:07.Scotland, north-west England, we will see a lot of rain today,
:26:08. > :26:10.particularly through Cumbria. There may be surface water flooding, and
:26:11. > :26:17.that band of rain divides southern areas where we will see largely dry
:26:18. > :26:19.but cloudy and windy weather, mild temperatures in London, from
:26:20. > :26:22.northern areas where it will be cool with a mixture of sunshine and
:26:23. > :26:27.showers. Through tonight the rain band will have slid its way
:26:28. > :26:30.southwards, then it reinvigorates heavy rain pushing back in, all the
:26:31. > :26:38.while turning windy up towards the north-west. With the gales, some
:26:39. > :26:43.pretty hefty downpours. At the same time rain sets in across a large
:26:44. > :26:47.part of England and Wales. Brighter skies to the north but with the
:26:48. > :26:52.continued threat of showers, some of those heavy and indeed wintry over
:26:53. > :26:54.high ground in Northern Ireland and Scotland, turning chillier in the
:26:55. > :26:59.north-west and for the week ahead the cooler weather will spread to
:27:00. > :27:02.all parts of the country with a mixture of sunshine and showers so
:27:03. > :27:07.nothing particularly springlike on the horizon, Andrew.
:27:08. > :27:09.It's been a terrible week for the Tories -
:27:10. > :27:12.chunks of the Budget being torn up, enormous fines from
:27:13. > :27:14.the Electoral Commission, and a very bitter row
:27:15. > :27:15.between Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon
:27:16. > :27:17.about Scotland's right to have a second
:27:18. > :27:20.Ruth Davidson is leader of the opposition in Scotland
:27:21. > :27:29.Good morning, Ruth Davidson. You said not so long ago that I actually
:27:30. > :27:37.don't think Westminster saying no you cannae to a referendum would
:27:38. > :27:43.play well and would damage the unionist cause, have you changed
:27:44. > :27:46.your mind? Nicola Sturgeon said to have a fair referendum people in
:27:47. > :27:53.Scotland need to know what they are voting for. It has got to be after
:27:54. > :27:58.the Brexit situation has played out. I think it's astonishing that after
:27:59. > :28:05.a two day conference, the SNP still haven't told us their vision after
:28:06. > :28:11.dropping this bombshell on Monday. Nicola Sturgeon's timescale we will
:28:12. > :28:15.know what the Brexit deal will be at that point so what's the problem
:28:16. > :28:19.with the referendum? I don't accept that, on the grounds that we know
:28:20. > :28:22.there will be a lot of powers that come back from Brussels, many
:28:23. > :28:27.devolved to the Scottish Government, the same powers Nicola wants to hand
:28:28. > :28:31.back to Brussels, so we won't know but we also don't know what
:28:32. > :28:36.independence looks like. We have asked basic questions on things like
:28:37. > :28:41.currency, the central bank, would we rejoin Europe as a full member, and
:28:42. > :28:45.Nicola Sturgeon seems unable to commit to that. The other issue is I
:28:46. > :28:50.don't think you can have another independence referendum if you don't
:28:51. > :28:55.have public consent for it and the people of Scotland don't want it. We
:28:56. > :28:59.have seen another poll today that shows the majority of people in
:29:00. > :29:06.Scotland don't want this. I know it is hard, from 450 miles away,
:29:07. > :29:15.Andrew, but I have to tell people at home, I know it is difficult because
:29:16. > :29:19.I have read about it but we have to tell people the SNP is not Scotland
:29:20. > :29:25.and they are acting for the wishes of people in Scotland and I have
:29:26. > :29:39.read too many headlines saying Scotland reacts X or Y. Let me put
:29:40. > :29:42.it to you that the SNP is nonetheless the Government of
:29:43. > :29:47.Scotland and they were elected on a manifesto which said with crystal
:29:48. > :29:51.clarity that if Scotland was taken out of the EU against her wishes,
:29:52. > :29:53.that would be the material change which would signal another
:29:54. > :29:58.referendum, and therefore whatever you think of Nicola Sturgeon, she is
:29:59. > :30:02.sticking by him manifesto commitment.
:30:03. > :30:13.She also lost her majority. And at that election campaign, she also
:30:14. > :30:18.told the people of Scotland, directly, that if I don't change
:30:19. > :30:21.people's minds on this, if I don't get people across the line to
:30:22. > :30:27.independence, I will have no right to hold on. She looked down the
:30:28. > :30:30.camera lens and said those words to the people of Scotland. She said if
:30:31. > :30:35.she hadn't changed public opinion in Scotland she would have no right to
:30:36. > :30:39.call it. What is your message to those people in Scotland who look at
:30:40. > :30:44.the prospect of leaving the EU and agree with crashing the Scottish
:30:45. > :30:47.economy and it been devastating for jobs and prosperity and the future
:30:48. > :30:51.of the Scottish economy, and who wants to stay inside the single
:30:52. > :30:55.market and 11 last chance to say, we don't agree with this, we want to go
:30:56. > :31:00.in a different direction? You and your leader are taking the
:31:01. > :31:04.possibility away from them. I would point to Theresa May's Lancaster
:31:05. > :31:10.House speech were she said she wanted to pursue a free-trade deal,
:31:11. > :31:13.to allow companies to trade within that single market as well as look
:31:14. > :31:19.for a trade deals abroad. I would also point to the other 12 points in
:31:20. > :31:25.Theresa May's plan. You wouldn't think it from the weight Nicola
:31:26. > :31:29.Sturgeon is talking, but things like cooperation on crime and
:31:30. > :31:32.intelligence, writes for EU migrants in the UK, these were things
:31:33. > :31:37.specifically asked for by the SNP government that they will not
:31:38. > :31:41.acknowledge were detailed in that Lancaster House speech by Theresa
:31:42. > :31:46.May. Which haven't been included in the legislation that has just gone
:31:47. > :31:50.through Parliament. Can you point me to a single actual change in policy
:31:51. > :31:53.or direction that Theresa May has conceded to the Scottish government?
:31:54. > :31:57.She said she would listen to Scotland, nothing would happen
:31:58. > :32:03.without Scotland's say so. Since then there has been a deafening
:32:04. > :32:05.silence. You have seen the joint ministerial Council meeting is going
:32:06. > :32:11.on between the UK government and the devolved governments. I have
:32:12. > :32:15.detailed four points out of the 12 point plan that were specifically
:32:16. > :32:19.asked for by the SNP government. I know if Theresa May wrapped a pony
:32:20. > :32:23.in a big bow and gave it to Nicola Sturgeon for her birthday, for some
:32:24. > :32:28.reason that would not be enough. Slightly strange thing to do! These
:32:29. > :32:32.things were specifically asked for by the Scottish government that have
:32:33. > :32:35.been delivered and laid out by the UK government. Nicola Sturgeon may
:32:36. > :32:42.not wish to acknowledge that but there is a reason for that. She is
:32:43. > :32:45.hell-bent on the separation of this country. She wants to do it against
:32:46. > :32:51.the majority wishes of the Scottish people. Let me move on... One more
:32:52. > :32:56.point. We know that Brexit is only this week's excuse and they have
:32:57. > :32:59.been plenty of excuses in the past. When Nicola Sturgeon was asked if
:33:00. > :33:03.she would take an independent Scotland directly back in as a full
:33:04. > :33:08.member of the EU if she wins independence, she refused to confirm
:33:09. > :33:12.it. This is not about Brexit. This is about utilising whatever is to
:33:13. > :33:17.hand to break up the UK. That has been her political mission for
:33:18. > :33:22.entire life. She is leader of the SNP. It is not surprising. She is
:33:23. > :33:28.also be First Minister and has a responsibility. She is the First
:33:29. > :33:31.Minister of Scotland. She has a responsibility to all of Scotland
:33:32. > :33:37.and she has renege on that responsibility. She followed the
:33:38. > :33:40.narrow party objective, not the view of the people of Scotland who have
:33:41. > :33:45.said time and time and time again they do not want dragged back to the
:33:46. > :33:48.divisions of three years ago. They haven't changed their view on the
:33:49. > :33:54.question they were asked and gave a clear answer on just three years
:33:55. > :33:58.ago. It seems binary. Full independence or the status quo
:33:59. > :34:02.inside the union. Gordon Brown has suggested a sort of third Way,
:34:03. > :34:08.whereby a lot of those powers coming back to Westminster aren't grabbed
:34:09. > :34:12.by London board are given to Edinburgh. Is this a way forward?
:34:13. > :34:17.Gordon Brown is full of thousands of good ideas. It is ashamed that he
:34:18. > :34:20.couldn't have implemented some of them as Prime Minister. Theresa May
:34:21. > :34:24.has already made it absolutely clear there is no power that is currently
:34:25. > :34:29.residing at Holyrood that will go anyplace else. And as powers are
:34:30. > :34:33.returned to the UK Parliament from Brussels, they will be further
:34:34. > :34:38.devolved. Asymmetric devolution I would expect. Scotland already has
:34:39. > :34:41.competency over a wider range of issues than Stormont and the Welsh
:34:42. > :34:46.Assembly. That is something we have to discuss and make sure we do in a
:34:47. > :34:51.way that doesn't practically impede our own internal market in the UK.
:34:52. > :34:56.That is why I'm talking about Brexit process, not just a date on which we
:34:57. > :34:59.actually leave the EU. It has been a difficult week for your party. Some
:35:00. > :35:05.high and low moments and some surreal moments. What did you think
:35:06. > :35:09.when you saw George Osborne would be editing the London Evening Standard?
:35:10. > :35:13.He is a better man than me. I spent ten years as a journalist and six
:35:14. > :35:17.years as a politician. I'm not sure you can combine both. I work a busy
:35:18. > :35:22.week as it is, this week in particular. I'm not sure you can do
:35:23. > :35:26.both at the same time. John Major as one Theresa May not to become
:35:27. > :35:29.captured by the so-called hard Brexiteers. Clearly the Chancellor
:35:30. > :35:35.is having a pretty torrid time at the moment. You concerned there is a
:35:36. > :35:40.growing war inside your party to push out anybody, including people
:35:41. > :35:46.like you, who are not as hard as hard can be on Brexit? No. I don't
:35:47. > :35:49.think there is anybody pushing me, and they would get shoved back
:35:50. > :35:53.pretty hard if they tried, and I think the idea that anybody could
:35:54. > :35:57.capture Theresa May is probably someone who doesn't know to reason
:35:58. > :35:59.may very well. She knows her own mind. Thank you for talking to us.
:36:00. > :36:01.Thank you. For almost four decades,
:36:02. > :36:03.Griff Rhys Jones has been one of the best known faces on British
:36:04. > :36:07.TV, whether in comedy - alongside the much-missed Mel Smith -
:36:08. > :36:09.or as the presenter of hugely He's back on stage in London
:36:10. > :36:13.starring as The Miser As Harpagon, the penny-pinching
:36:14. > :36:19.father, Griff plays an outrageous But given your respective ages,
:36:20. > :36:27.Papa, should you not marry Anne and I shall marry Mariane
:36:28. > :36:34.and he will marry Anne. No, I shall marry
:36:35. > :36:40.Mariane and he, marry, And marry, if he won't marry Anne,
:36:41. > :36:47.you can't marry Mariane Apparently it was a sort of try
:36:48. > :36:56.out, and his intention was to take this comedy
:36:57. > :37:00.and turn it into a more classically oriented piece,
:37:01. > :37:03.to write it in verse. But it went so well, it was so funny
:37:04. > :37:09.for the audience that watched it, that he started
:37:10. > :37:12.basically to leave it be and not In one sense what you do
:37:13. > :37:16.is you take Moliere There's bottom jokes and things
:37:17. > :37:20.falling off the wall jokes. Yes, but I have to say
:37:21. > :37:23.this, which is really weird, when you come down
:37:24. > :37:27.to say it's freely adapted and that sort of thing,
:37:28. > :37:30.all the silliest jokes are Moliere. The wine stuff, the wine
:37:31. > :37:32.being thrown over everybody, that's Moliere.
:37:33. > :37:33.That's absolutely as it is. The money on a string,
:37:34. > :37:37.that's Moliere. The money buried underneath
:37:38. > :37:39.the tomato plants, that's actually So there's a sense that almost
:37:40. > :37:44.all the silliest jokes In terms of the message,
:37:45. > :37:48.your character, Harpagon, he is the man classically more
:37:49. > :37:51.in love with his money and presumably all that means,
:37:52. > :37:54.than with his family or other And the really hard thing
:37:55. > :38:00.for you is we have to have sympathy for Harpagon, your
:38:01. > :38:06.character, but he is disgusting. He's the old hunched man
:38:07. > :38:10.who figures in a lot of his plays and was usually
:38:11. > :38:12.played by Moliere himself. Now this character, as it
:38:13. > :38:17.were, presents the idea of the problems and the beliefs and
:38:18. > :38:20.the assumptions that a lot of late That everybody's out to get hold of
:38:21. > :38:28.their money, their children are wastrels, not doing anything
:38:29. > :38:29.with themselves. And as I say, Harpagon is quite
:38:30. > :38:35.a grotesque character. You pull out the false
:38:36. > :38:37.teeth, you don't quite turn out your eyes,
:38:38. > :38:39.but he's pretty hideous. Just explain why you are wearing
:38:40. > :38:44.that little beanie at the moment? Well at one point
:38:45. > :38:46.we talk about wigs. He has a wig which he
:38:47. > :38:51.made himself when the At another point he's asked to talk
:38:52. > :38:58.about his hair and he takes off his wig to reveal
:38:59. > :39:02.that he has a very... When we discussed this, at one point
:39:03. > :39:05.they suggest, "Why don't we put on a bald wig and then you can put
:39:06. > :39:09.the wig on top of that, then you can be bald and spend two hours
:39:10. > :39:11.every day in make-up?" I said, "No, it's all right,
:39:12. > :39:14.I'll shave it and go around So I have to wear a hat
:39:15. > :39:19.to avoid giving the Now we've seen you a lot
:39:20. > :39:26.on telly and so forth. Last year you did a one-man show
:39:27. > :39:28.talking about your own life, and you talked
:39:29. > :39:30.about Mel Smith. It's four years now,
:39:31. > :39:33.I think, since he died. Again, will you ever,
:39:34. > :39:36.do you think, have somebody with whom you work so closely,
:39:37. > :39:38.with that extraordinary I have to say that Mel
:39:39. > :39:46.was the most fantastic person And I'm by nature,
:39:47. > :39:55.a little bit hyper. But Mel was always the most
:39:56. > :40:00.steady and wonderful He was always the most
:40:01. > :40:03.generous of actors. Oh, come on, you've got some
:40:04. > :40:05.lovely kids, haven't you? I hear the oldest one
:40:06. > :40:12.has got into Oxford? If I wanted to say to Mel, "Well,
:40:13. > :40:20.if you'd did that it would make it funnier", or if he wanted
:40:21. > :40:23.to say to me, "I think we should do this", or whatever,
:40:24. > :40:25.there was always a sense that it was able to be done
:40:26. > :40:28.with absolutely no forethought at all, that we would talk about
:40:29. > :40:30.what we did. So ruthless immediate
:40:31. > :40:32.mutual criticism? Sort of like that sort of sense
:40:33. > :40:35.of being able to work with It's very strange when
:40:36. > :40:38.you walk into a play, you have to be careful
:40:39. > :40:40.when you approach other actors, just to say, "I wonder
:40:41. > :40:43.if you did this..." Everybody, it's not that nobody
:40:44. > :40:45.doesn't really wants to do it, they do sort of,
:40:46. > :40:49.they do walk around... But I tell you what's
:40:50. > :40:54.interesting, my main servant is And Lee is a disruptive
:40:55. > :40:59.force in the play, Well, they do say how
:41:00. > :41:06.you got a padlock on your purse and that you have
:41:07. > :41:09.deliberately lost the key. And about how you took a mouse
:41:10. > :41:12.to court for nibbling on a And how you re-plastered
:41:13. > :41:16.the whole of your house in porridge, which is true,
:41:17. > :41:19.and accounts for that bit of jam His sort of naughtiness,
:41:20. > :41:22.that's the most important thing. That sense of naughtiness
:41:23. > :41:25.that carries through Lee all the way through the play,
:41:26. > :41:28.actually really enlivens the play Griff Rhys Jones, thanks very
:41:29. > :41:31.much for talking to us. And that new adaptation of The Miser
:41:32. > :41:38.is at London's Garrick Theatre Now, coming up later this morning,
:41:39. > :41:42.Andrew Neil will be joined by Nick Clegg, the former leader
:41:43. > :41:45.of the Liberal Democrats. And he'll be discussing claims
:41:46. > :41:48.of a health crisis with the senior That's the Sunday Politics
:41:49. > :41:55.at 11 here on BBC One. Tony Blair is launching
:41:56. > :41:58.a new policy institute. He argues that globalisation -
:41:59. > :42:01.frankly, the world we are living in right now -
:42:02. > :42:04.has produced a backlash of angry And he wants to do
:42:05. > :42:09.something about it. Just saying that raises so many
:42:10. > :42:21.questions, Mr Blair. Can we start by talking about
:42:22. > :42:23.globalisation itself? Many people would say that is a series of
:42:24. > :42:30.decisions which happened at least on your watch, the deregulation of
:42:31. > :42:34.international banking and so forth, the deregulation of labour markets,
:42:35. > :42:37.mass immigration, and that people are making a justified kickback to
:42:38. > :42:42.things they find very disturbing and change that has happened in many
:42:43. > :42:46.communities simply too quickly? Yes, and I think this is exactly the
:42:47. > :42:50.context for having the debate. Globalisation in my view is not
:42:51. > :42:54.ultimately a decision by government. It is an unstoppable force that is
:42:55. > :42:59.driven by technology, trade, travel, migration. And it's going to carry
:43:00. > :43:04.on. However, governments can respond. You say unstoppable. It's
:43:05. > :43:09.not an act of God. These decisions are taken by human beings. If people
:43:10. > :43:14.don't like it they can presumably slow it down? Absolutely. But it is
:43:15. > :43:18.a decision taken by human beings and not just governments. This is
:43:19. > :43:21.important. If you look at the last 30 years of human history, more
:43:22. > :43:24.people have been lifted out of poverty than ever before, there have
:43:25. > :43:29.been enormous advances in how we live and how we work, and how we
:43:30. > :43:33.operate. But there have also been real stresses and strains. You can
:43:34. > :43:37.see that economically through the displacement of jobs. And you can
:43:38. > :43:41.see it culturally through anxiety over issues like immigration. My
:43:42. > :43:45.view is simply that the best way of dealing with this and pushing back
:43:46. > :43:49.against the populism left or ride is for the central round to renew
:43:50. > :43:54.itself as the place where you protect yourself against the dangers
:43:55. > :43:58.of globalisation, and allow people to access the benefits. If you go
:43:59. > :44:02.into anti-globalisation mode, you will do immense damage economically
:44:03. > :44:06.and culturally. I think it is fair to say that you were a cheerleader
:44:07. > :44:08.of globalisation in the old days and when it came to things like the
:44:09. > :44:14.failure to regulate the banking system, opening the gates to very
:44:15. > :44:17.fast and big EU immigration, a lot of people will look at you and say,
:44:18. > :44:22.that is the person responsible for a lot of things going wrong with my
:44:23. > :44:26.life now? The financial crisis was a crisis in the financial markets that
:44:27. > :44:30.came about principally because as globalisation took root, there were
:44:31. > :44:33.new financial instruments. People didn't understand their
:44:34. > :44:36.interrelationship. After the financial crisis, which happened
:44:37. > :44:40.worldwide, all governments have taken steps to regulate the
:44:41. > :44:45.financial sector more effectively. You must have thought, I wish we
:44:46. > :44:49.understood what was going on then? Absolutely. If you want to pin the
:44:50. > :44:54.failure of what happened at the time on people like me, do. It doesn't
:44:55. > :45:00.invalidate the process of global immigration. Can I ask you about the
:45:01. > :45:02.immigration decision, which was important around Brexit? Did you
:45:03. > :45:06.know as Prime Minister when you allowed so many people to, growing
:45:07. > :45:11.so quickly, how many people would come in and the effect it would have
:45:12. > :45:15.on communities in the UK? No, we didn't know the numbers. It is
:45:16. > :45:19.important to realise two things. When these countries joined the
:45:20. > :45:23.European Union, and very important for us that they did join, imported
:45:24. > :45:29.for Security and the economy. There was freedom of people immediately.
:45:30. > :45:33.We could have delayed for four years their ability to come here and work.
:45:34. > :45:39.We didn't. It's true. The economy was in a different position in 2004.
:45:40. > :45:45.The majority of EU immigration came after 2008.
:45:46. > :45:53.One of the tragedies of Brexit is that we think the enlargement of the
:45:54. > :45:58.European Union was some sort of error. It was a bipartisan policy of
:45:59. > :46:03.both governments that has done great benefit to this country overall. The
:46:04. > :46:07.other thing about that whole period of New Labour politics and what
:46:08. > :46:12.followed was there was a lack of trust in politics. We saw the 2008
:46:13. > :46:17.crash and people are still suffering hard after that but also a whole
:46:18. > :46:20.series of scandals, weapons of mass destruction and so forth. I was a
:46:21. > :46:24.journalist at the time and I felt misled by that, do you think your
:46:25. > :46:30.government was partly responsible for what has been called the
:46:31. > :46:43.collapse of the centre? We can go over the individual issues around
:46:44. > :46:45.trust and so on and we have many times but I don't think that's what
:46:46. > :46:48.has collapsed support for the centre ground. I think the centre ground
:46:49. > :46:51.has got to be more critical. Why then in that case? Because we have
:46:52. > :46:58.got to be managers of the status quo. If we don't provide answers,
:46:59. > :47:03.others will ride anger... Just before we do, do you acknowledge
:47:04. > :47:08.there was damage done to the body politics during your period and that
:47:09. > :47:11.people who are suspicious of the elites, the Metropolitan elites, are
:47:12. > :47:17.partly looking at what happened during your years in Government? I
:47:18. > :47:21.accept that to a degree but I think this is often used as a reason for
:47:22. > :47:27.advancing policies that are really nothing to do with the so-called
:47:28. > :47:31.issue of elites. If you take the question of Brexit, there are people
:47:32. > :47:35.who are elite on either side of the argument. They use the issue of
:47:36. > :47:40.elites to say this is why you have got to vote for this particular form
:47:41. > :47:43.of politics. The important thing I want to do with this institute is
:47:44. > :47:47.developed a modern policy agenda for the centre ground which can be used
:47:48. > :47:56.by people in the front line of politics, I'm not in the front line,
:47:57. > :47:59.I'm not back into the front line, but to save these other types of
:48:00. > :48:02.things we should be talking about. For example on jobs how do you deal
:48:03. > :48:06.with the new wave of technology? This is the big question for the
:48:07. > :48:11.British economy in the years ahead. I would like to talk more about
:48:12. > :48:16.Brexit because they say the elites and you say populism, what is wrong
:48:17. > :48:23.with populism? There is nothing wrong with populism provided it is
:48:24. > :48:27.giving answers. What is the real tragedy with Brexit? If you take the
:48:28. > :48:31.issues that will define this country in the future, and there were
:48:32. > :48:35.stalking a moment ago about technological change, and this is
:48:36. > :48:40.directly relevant to Brexit, that is what you concentrate on. We have
:48:41. > :48:43.fresh news the NHS is teetering on the point of collapse, we are not
:48:44. > :48:49.dealing with this issue. Even if you want to deal with immigration,
:48:50. > :48:53.Brexit doesn't deal with the main issue of immigration which is non-EU
:48:54. > :48:57.immigration. If you want to push back against this populism you have
:48:58. > :49:00.got to address the people with a policy agenda that convinces them
:49:01. > :49:08.you have answers to the accelerating pace of change. A lot of people you
:49:09. > :49:12.say are the victims of populism are voters making rational decisions.
:49:13. > :49:17.They say there has been too much migration, my community has been
:49:18. > :49:21.changed to quickly, too fast, the differential pay gap in this country
:49:22. > :49:27.has become too much, I want more control, stronger borders and this
:49:28. > :49:31.is how to get it. It is a rational decision if it's true that getting
:49:32. > :49:37.out of Europe will solve those problems. The issue on Brexit is
:49:38. > :49:43.this, there has been a referendum and that is the will of the people,
:49:44. > :49:48.but here is the issue, if you analyse immigration from Europe,
:49:49. > :49:52.according to government ministers, we want to keep the majority of
:49:53. > :49:58.those people coming in from Europe. We want to keep the people who have
:49:59. > :50:06.come here with a job, their dependents... So you feel voters
:50:07. > :50:10.will feel let down? We cannot tell what will happen. A few weeks ago in
:50:11. > :50:15.the House of Commons David Davis said they were going to deliver a
:50:16. > :50:20.deal with, and I quote, exactly the same benefits as we now have from
:50:21. > :50:24.the single market and Customs union. We should hold them to that and my
:50:25. > :50:28.view very simply, I agree at the moment the argument for many people
:50:29. > :50:31.is over, but if as you go down this path the British people realise
:50:32. > :50:38.three things than I think it could change. One, that the gain is
:50:39. > :50:41.illusory, two that the pain is substantial, and three that the
:50:42. > :50:45.destruction of the Government and country in the meantime is enormous
:50:46. > :50:51.when there are these big real challenges on the economy, in health
:50:52. > :50:55.care, education, immigration that aren't being dealt with. But there
:50:56. > :51:00.isn't at the moment the mechanism to deal with the change of heart. You
:51:01. > :51:05.are not suggesting having another referendum, or are you? I'm not
:51:06. > :51:10.suggesting that at this point. This will all depend on whether members
:51:11. > :51:13.of Parliament are going back to their constituencies and noticing
:51:14. > :51:17.real pressure with people saying, hang on, I didn't know this is what
:51:18. > :51:22.it meant. For the last few months I have spoken to a range of people, if
:51:23. > :51:27.it is permissible to still talk to experts, a range of experts on the
:51:28. > :51:31.trade issue, I didn't understand how complicated this is going to be. If
:51:32. > :51:37.they are going to try to deliver exactly the same benefits as we have
:51:38. > :51:41.now on the single market and Customs union, this is an endeavour of
:51:42. > :51:45.unparalleled complexity. What people have explained to me is that
:51:46. > :51:51.normally in trade negotiations you talk about how you liberalise trade.
:51:52. > :51:56.This is about how you dealer belies over 40 years of complex trading
:51:57. > :52:06.arrangements -- how you de-liberalise. I think it is
:52:07. > :52:10.possible... There will be a rebellion in Parliament which
:52:11. > :52:19.changes direction. People will start saying, is this the thing that is
:52:20. > :52:22.going to be important? You have been hostile to Jeremy Corbyn's
:52:23. > :52:26.leadership of the Labour Party but don't you acknowledge that even if
:52:27. > :52:30.Clem Attlee was leading it he would have had the same problem with
:52:31. > :52:34.voters who were pro-Brexit, and therefore he took the right decision
:52:35. > :52:39.in the House of Commons not to stop Article 50? I think the Labour Party
:52:40. > :52:43.should have a simple position on Brexit and I don't think it is
:52:44. > :52:54.difficult at all. I think what the Labour Party should say is we
:52:55. > :52:58.believed in Remain, we acknowledge the people voted against that, we
:52:59. > :53:01.acknowledge the Government have a mandate, but we will hold them to
:53:02. > :53:06.the test they have set and if they do not pass that test, then we are
:53:07. > :53:10.going to retain the right to represent the people of this country
:53:11. > :53:13.should bear will change to offer them the option of staying,
:53:14. > :53:17.particularly in the reformed Europe which should be the other part of
:53:18. > :53:20.what the Government and opposition are doing, which is to investigate
:53:21. > :53:26.with the rest of Europe the possibilities of reform. I don't see
:53:27. > :53:31.what's difficult about that. You have launched effectively a think
:53:32. > :53:37.tank. There's a lot of people out there, the 48%, the liberal minority
:53:38. > :53:41.at the moment, people in the centre ground, very confused about what to
:53:42. > :53:44.do. They don't feel they can vote for Jeremy Corbyn, they certainly
:53:45. > :53:47.don't want to vote for the Conservatives, they don't have a
:53:48. > :53:53.mechanism and you are not going to give them one. I am not interested
:53:54. > :53:58.in... It is not for me to start... The way this start in my view is
:53:59. > :54:01.with ideas and Brexit in truth as you rightly say in the context of
:54:02. > :54:05.the interview is really part of the bigger issue about globalisation and
:54:06. > :54:09.about what I think is the biggest political distinction today which is
:54:10. > :54:16.open-minded versus closed minded in the light of globalisation. I think
:54:17. > :54:19.we need to focus yes on Brexit but it's a much wider policy agenda and
:54:20. > :54:24.it's really about saying how do we make sure that these economic and
:54:25. > :54:28.cultural strains are best dealt with? Very briefly, any advice for
:54:29. > :54:34.George Osborne now he's being a newspaper editor and an MP at the
:54:35. > :54:39.same time? Is it doable? I don't know, but I think it's a great thing
:54:40. > :54:43.for the Evening Standard, why not? He's a highly capable guy and it
:54:44. > :54:46.should make politics more interesting. It certainly will.
:54:47. > :54:49.Thank you for talking to us. Now a look at what's coming up
:54:50. > :55:03.straight after this programme. In Cardiff at ten o'clock we are
:55:04. > :55:08.debating populism, our Europe 's powerless taking control? Should
:55:09. > :55:13.governments care how happy we are? And for giving and forgiveness, does
:55:14. > :55:13.it set you free? Ten o'clock on BBC One.
:55:14. > :55:15.Some of you will have been choking over your cornflakes,
:55:16. > :55:17.others feeling a warm glow of nostalgia listening
:55:18. > :55:22.If Mr Blair's looking for advice on how to mount a comeback,
:55:23. > :55:25.Madness have a new album which has tickled the critics
:55:26. > :55:29.Before we hear a song from it, here's a reminder
:55:30. > :55:31.of the Nutty Boys in earlier years.
:55:32. > :55:47.# Headmaster's breaking all the rules
:55:48. > :56:12.# We talked and talked until it was light
:56:13. > :56:29.Almost out of time. Thanks to all my guests.
:56:30. > :56:31.Join us again at the same time next Sunday.
:56:32. > :56:33.Don't forget, the clocks go forward next weekend.
:56:34. > :56:37.From their twelfth studio album, Can't Touch Us Now,
:56:38. > :57:26.# I've got another version of me
:57:27. > :57:37.# I've got a car with a hands-free phone
:57:38. > :59:15.# Oh well, I'm never free when somebody bothers me
:59:16. > :59:20.It took us once to get through the novel Anna Karenina.