:00:00. > :00:07.There always comes a moment in a general election campaign
:00:08. > :00:10.when the party that's ahead has a major wobble -
:00:11. > :00:14.polls tighten and commentators get over-excited as voters
:00:15. > :00:18.home in on one particularly controversial issue -
:00:19. > :00:21.such as, for instance, how we treat pensioners.
:00:22. > :00:43.Here, to defend a manifesto that has surprised and worried
:00:44. > :00:48.some traditional Tory voters, the Work and Pensions
:00:49. > :00:50.Secretary Damian Green and - back with us again -
:00:51. > :00:52.the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell,
:00:53. > :00:55.facing questions about Labour's plans for welfare cuts.
:00:56. > :00:58.Later on, they'll be going head to head on the sofa.
:00:59. > :01:03.Plus, a question for its leader this morning: in the 2017 general
:01:04. > :01:09.And a reminder even now that there's more that unites
:01:10. > :01:14.us than divides us - Brendan Cox on his wife's legacy,
:01:15. > :01:23.as we approach the anniversary of her death.
:01:24. > :01:25.And reviewing the news from the papers and beyond this
:01:26. > :01:27.morning, the Corbyn-supporting commentator, Paul Mason,
:01:28. > :01:32.Miranda Green from the FT and the Daily Mail's Amanda Platell.
:01:33. > :01:36.But first, the news with Roger Johnson.
:01:37. > :01:40.Donald Trump will today call on Muslims to present
:01:41. > :01:43.a united front in the fight against religious extremism.
:01:44. > :01:46.The President is on the second day of a visit to Saudi Arabia
:01:47. > :01:51.during which he signed an arms deal worth more than ?80 billion.
:01:52. > :01:55.Later today, he will address the leaders of 50 Muslim majority
:01:56. > :01:58.countries, describing the fight against terrorism as
:01:59. > :02:05.The New York Times is reporting that at least 18 CIA informants
:02:06. > :02:10.were killed or imprisoned in China after a spy network was dismantled.
:02:11. > :02:13.It's being described as one of the worst intelligence
:02:14. > :02:21.The Labour Party is stepping up its drive for older voters,
:02:22. > :02:24.claiming Conservative manifesto proposals amount
:02:25. > :02:30.Jeremy Corbyn said his party will protect the Winter Fuel Allowance
:02:31. > :02:34.and Triple-Lock on state pensions, which will both be reduced under
:02:35. > :02:40.The Tories have accused Labour of running a "scare campaign".
:02:41. > :02:43.The leaders of the main parties have agreed to stop campaigning
:02:44. > :02:47.for an hour today to remember the MP Jo Cox, who was shot
:02:48. > :02:51.and stabbed in her constituency in West Yorkshire last year.
:02:52. > :02:54.Her widower Brendan Cox suggested the idea to encourage
:02:55. > :03:00.Earlier this year, Mr Cox met the Duchess of Cornwall to launch
:03:01. > :03:03.a plan for a "great get together" to commemorate the anniversary
:03:04. > :03:10.Pippa Middleton has tied the knot in a ceremony
:03:11. > :03:14.The 33-year-old socialite married James Matthews,
:03:15. > :03:19.a hedge fund manager, at St Mark's Church in Englefield.
:03:20. > :03:22.The wedding was attended by celebrity friends and royals,
:03:23. > :03:25.including her sister, the Duchess of Cambridge, Prince George
:03:26. > :03:56.The story on the front pages is all about Pippa and politics. An
:03:57. > :04:04.interview in the Sunday Telegraph with Theresa May, where her best
:04:05. > :04:10.idea is to focus on local heroes rather than overpaid TV celebrities.
:04:11. > :04:15.The Sunday Express, Pippa. The Mail on Sunday, Pippa and politics. And
:04:16. > :04:24.Pippa, and Pippa, pages and pages of her inside. And in the Observer,
:04:25. > :04:29.again, more politics, on the school meals plan. Lots to talk about. I
:04:30. > :04:36.suspect we will talk more about politics than Pippa. You are quite
:04:37. > :04:41.right. It was a very wobbly weekend for Theresa May and the Tories.
:04:42. > :04:46.Jeremy Corbyn must have thought, hallelujah, when he heard the
:04:47. > :04:51.manifesto. There is only a nine point difference in the polls. And
:04:52. > :05:00.that is the crucial thing. In the Sunday Times, 44 to 35. It is still
:05:01. > :05:06.a very good lead. The most important thing here really is, did she do
:05:07. > :05:10.this, was this a mistake or was it intentional? Did she think that she
:05:11. > :05:16.could afford to lose some? I am really principled Prime Minister.
:05:17. > :05:19.Who knows? We agree that the essence of the problem is what she said
:05:20. > :05:25.about social care, pensioners and the Winter fuel payments? I think
:05:26. > :05:31.the social care plan, certainly, and the tax on the elderly, as many of
:05:32. > :05:36.the papers have it today. It would be called a brave suggestion. It is
:05:37. > :05:39.brave, because there is a really big national problem, and here is an
:05:40. > :05:44.answer to it, even though people might not like it. Yes, and I think
:05:45. > :05:49.there is a genuine political reason for having such a risky manifesto
:05:50. > :05:56.which is, even if they win big in the Commons, the Tories don't
:05:57. > :05:59.control the House of Lords. The tradition is that you don't block
:06:00. > :06:06.measures that are in a manifesto. So this is to have more power later on,
:06:07. > :06:09.if she takes a hit now? Fewer MPs gives had less power. There were
:06:10. > :06:14.interesting quotes in that story in the Sunday Times, saying that we
:06:15. > :06:18.need to get the question off the manifesto. Before we move to Paul,
:06:19. > :06:25.the interview in the Telegraph, how much does it tell us? No disrespect
:06:26. > :06:30.to the Telegraph, when I say that there is very little in it. She is
:06:31. > :06:36.the mistress of saying nothing in her interviews. This is the Lynton
:06:37. > :06:44.Crosby method to win an election. Have one slogan, one idea, and stick
:06:45. > :06:48.to it. No deviation, lots of repetition. But unfortunately it has
:06:49. > :06:53.disrupted the election. Is the idea to move the story on from social
:06:54. > :06:59.care? It hasn't worked very well in terms of the front pages. The
:07:00. > :07:04.dementia tax backlash. Do you think the world dementia tax might play,
:07:05. > :07:10.we are discussing? Theresa May stood up twice in Downing Street and said,
:07:11. > :07:16.this election is about Brexit and Brexit only. To Labour voters in
:07:17. > :07:19.Yorkshire, just lend me your vote on Brexit, and everything else will be
:07:20. > :07:26.more or less the same. Every family in the land wakes up wondering
:07:27. > :07:30.whether the asset wealth, that has been assembled over many generations
:07:31. > :07:37.by middle class and working class families, is now in peril because of
:07:38. > :07:41.a solution pulled out of nowhere precisely opposite by the guy
:07:42. > :07:46.employed by the government to go up on. If you are in a Labour
:07:47. > :07:50.constituency in the North of England in a house worth less than ?100,000,
:07:51. > :07:56.this is very good news for you, because you don't have to pay a
:07:57. > :08:01.penny. Yes, but the problem is, it is about Universalism versus you are
:08:02. > :08:07.on your own. The message from this one, and from almost every policy
:08:08. > :08:11.the Tories presented in that manifesto, was a reversal out of
:08:12. > :08:22.Cameron is. Cameron and Osborne did try to spread the load between the
:08:23. > :08:27.classes of spreading the cost of the elderly. Now it is a saying, you are
:08:28. > :08:31.on your own. It is anti-universal, which is a theme that is already
:08:32. > :08:36.provoking a backlash on the doorsteps. Last Sunday, when I was
:08:37. > :08:40.campaigning, nobody wants to talk about Brexit already. They just want
:08:41. > :08:45.to talk about what the future is for them and their kids. I found that
:08:46. > :08:50.quite shocking. This Sunday, we know what they are going to be talking
:08:51. > :09:01.about. And we have to remind ourselves, that at the last election
:09:02. > :09:04.in 2015, the Conservatives were talking about the deal not proposal,
:09:05. > :09:06.which was a cap on social care of ?72,000, and the rest was pooled
:09:07. > :09:10.between everybody. Now they are talking about a flaw of 100,000,
:09:11. > :09:15.which is not very much, especially in the south of England. If they
:09:16. > :09:20.stick to this policy, and there is a question of whether they will be
:09:21. > :09:26.able to, is whether they will have to raise that 100,000 after the
:09:27. > :09:35.election. It is so complex that it is an open door to Labour for the
:09:36. > :09:38.dementia problem. It is a big problem three days away from
:09:39. > :09:43.polling. Let's move to the other side of the fence, to Jeremy Corbyn
:09:44. > :09:49.in the Daily Mirror. It is interesting because a lot of people
:09:50. > :09:55.are saying he may now be, he is much more aggressive, a full frontal
:09:56. > :09:59.attack on Theresa May. He is saying that you are taking away the winter
:10:00. > :10:06.fuel allowance, which could lead to deaths. Theresa May is just being
:10:07. > :10:12.nasty, basically. It is now full on. She is still the nasty party. He is
:10:13. > :10:17.clearly a man who visibly doesn't enjoy running the Labour Party as a
:10:18. > :10:21.mechanism. He loves campaigning, he is in his element. It's interesting
:10:22. > :10:26.that around the country we are seeing lots of examples of big,
:10:27. > :10:31.enthusiastic crowds. They don't appear on the traditional media very
:10:32. > :10:37.much. We are going to show you one, and Labour Party video from Tranmere
:10:38. > :10:40.Rovers. It is a music festival, I think.
:10:41. > :10:46.Thank you for giving me a few minutes.
:10:47. > :11:04.A bit surreal. Does it make any real difference to the polls? A lot of
:11:05. > :11:08.excitement this weekend, but the polls are still suggesting a very
:11:09. > :11:13.large Tory majority, and a lot of people out there, not at the
:11:14. > :11:18.Tranmere ground singing hello, Jeremy Corbyn, don't like it. Many
:11:19. > :11:23.people who support Labour naturally are being feeling treated unfair.
:11:24. > :11:27.British people are quite fair. It's something that defines us as a
:11:28. > :11:32.nation, that we don't like people being bullied and kicked unfairly,
:11:33. > :11:36.which is what happened to Corbyn in the media. I'm not surprised by
:11:37. > :11:41.that. I move among people who would have been in that crowd. But a lot
:11:42. > :11:46.of media people don't. I think they will have been shocked by that,
:11:47. > :11:49.because it was an unplanned meeting. Corbyn had just been on West Kirby
:11:50. > :11:54.beach with a crowd that was so long that he couldn't see the back of it.
:11:55. > :12:04.That doesn't win you an election, but it gives people on the doorstep
:12:05. > :12:06.the confidence to understand that we are not a bunch of threats to
:12:07. > :12:09.national security, as all these threats would have it, we are just
:12:10. > :12:15.the ordinary core of the British working population. You have to
:12:16. > :12:19.remember that one of the papers that did put his manifesto on the front
:12:20. > :12:26.page was the Daily Mirror. So it's not just the right wing papers. This
:12:27. > :12:30.article in the Observer about media bias is a bit of a non-Damascene
:12:31. > :12:35.conversion from a newspaper that just does not like Jeremy Corbyn.
:12:36. > :12:43.When all the newspapers are owned by alien heirs who don't pay tax, it is
:12:44. > :12:48.the unfairness of the attack on him. I think you have been looking at the
:12:49. > :12:52.Sunday Telegraph. To stay on the Labour Party, this is a column about
:12:53. > :12:57.some of these whisperings that Tony Blair might be gathering together,
:12:58. > :13:01.behind-the-scenes, money and supporters, for something to happen
:13:02. > :13:05.after polling day. It's the idea that the moderates in the Labour
:13:06. > :13:09.Party might want to either split away or organise internally for any
:13:10. > :13:15.sort of leadership election that might come up. It's a reminder that
:13:16. > :13:24.after polling day, the turmoil in the opposition will not go away.
:13:25. > :13:30.Keep watching, everybody! That is partly because the Conservatives, if
:13:31. > :13:33.they win again, have a very, very difficult job immediately on
:13:34. > :13:38.negotiating Brexit. There are two very different interviews in terms
:13:39. > :13:43.of tone today. One interview, one column. David Davis, the Brexit
:13:44. > :13:49.secretary, is giving a tough interview in the Observer. He is
:13:50. > :13:53.saying, if they demand a huge 100 billion divorce bill, he is getting
:13:54. > :14:05.up and walking out. I love the picture on it. He looks like he's
:14:06. > :14:09.ready for a fight. So he is being extremely tough, but interestingly,
:14:10. > :14:14.a very different tone in an article by Boris Johnson in the Mail on
:14:15. > :14:19.Sunday, in which she attacks Jeremy Corbyn for being a blancmange. Not
:14:20. > :14:23.his best metaphor. He also says, we want a very good deal with our
:14:24. > :14:28.European friends. He sounds much more in moly end. Whether the
:14:29. > :14:35.government goes a bit more Boris or a bit more David Davis, it is a real
:14:36. > :14:38.question... Also, interestingly, going back to the conversation about
:14:39. > :14:42.the election, David Davis is trying to get them back on message with all
:14:43. > :14:48.of this Brexit being the defining issue, which they seem to have
:14:49. > :14:51.forgotten that the last few days. It's much better for the
:14:52. > :14:55.Conservative Party to be back on that. The words we have not
:14:56. > :15:00.mentioned so far is Liberal Democrat. What has happened to the
:15:01. > :15:04.great Lib Dem revival? Some are saying it will be their year. So
:15:05. > :15:12.far, they are known in the polls and falling. Tim Farren, in the Mail on
:15:13. > :15:16.Sunday, getting very angry. It has been the most binary election for
:15:17. > :15:20.some time. What normally happens to the Lib Dems is boosting coverage
:15:21. > :15:25.and a squeeze in the last few days. All they are having at the moment is
:15:26. > :15:30.a squeeze. This decision to go completely on Brexit has not worked
:15:31. > :15:34.well for them. Interestingly, this interview with Tim Farron is
:15:35. > :15:38.following up on the great opportunity provided by the Tory
:15:39. > :15:43.manifesto. Presenting Theresa May as uncaring.
:15:44. > :15:52.The reason we have asked Paul on the sofa is to talk about the royal
:15:53. > :15:57.wedding. Eight pages in the Sun, eight in the mail, a lot in the
:15:58. > :16:00.mirror. A young member of the Royal family there with an outfit and
:16:01. > :16:06.every working-class person in Britain will understand. When people
:16:07. > :16:11.talk about certain politicians taking us back to the past, this,
:16:12. > :16:16.I'm afraid, it is Downton Abbey, replayed with real people. But
:16:17. > :16:20.everyone loves Downton Abbey. No, I love this, eight pages of the kind
:16:21. > :16:24.of people who will be paying 8p more on their tax when Labour get into
:16:25. > :16:27.power. And by the look of it, they can afford it. It is just
:16:28. > :16:31.incredible. She is the sister of a royal, she is not a royal in herself
:16:32. > :16:36.but I guess there is president of this because Diana's brother sold
:16:37. > :16:41.his wedding rights. It is not about the pages in the paper but the pages
:16:42. > :16:45.in between. And it cheers people up, and everyone likes a wedding. Cute
:16:46. > :16:47.kids. I am glad you are all cheered up.
:16:48. > :16:50.The husband of the murdered MP Jo Cox is urging politicians
:16:51. > :16:52.to pause their election campaigning for an hour today
:16:53. > :16:54.to remember her, and to help bring communities together.
:16:55. > :17:06.Welcome, Brendan. First of all, what exactly do you want to happen today?
:17:07. > :17:11.What is happening today, politicians from all political parties are
:17:12. > :17:15.taking an hour out of campaigning to pause and generally go and visit
:17:16. > :17:19.community groups, whether that is the Women's Institute or the Rotary
:17:20. > :17:23.Club or the scouts or the guides, organisations who we get in, week
:17:24. > :17:26.out, spend their time bringing the community together. Obviously
:17:27. > :17:29.election campaigns are divisive necessarily and the focus on the
:17:30. > :17:31.areas where we disagree with one another but the fact that all the
:17:32. > :17:35.party leaders have responded to say that they will pause for a second
:17:36. > :17:38.and say, of course we fundamentally disagree with each other on of
:17:39. > :17:42.things but there is more that unites us than divides us, I think that is
:17:43. > :17:46.a really important signal. And you have had a good response from the
:17:47. > :17:54.party leaders? We have had an incredible response. There a
:17:55. > :17:59.beautiful event happening in Jo's home town, the candidates are
:18:00. > :18:03.getting together to raise money for a special baby unit. It is those
:18:04. > :18:06.sorts of things which I think, politics is massively important and
:18:07. > :18:10.elections are very important for our country, but we also have to get a
:18:11. > :18:14.better balance. We spend so much time talking about the things we
:18:15. > :18:16.disagree with each other on, particularly during elections, and
:18:17. > :18:20.we are very bad at actually just pausing for a second and focusing on
:18:21. > :18:25.those fundamental things that bind us together. And after this moment,
:18:26. > :18:29.something else that you have talked about with others, the great
:18:30. > :18:35.get-together. What is that? It happens on the weekend of the
:18:36. > :18:39.anniversary of Jo's death, the 16th, 17th and 18th of June. The basic
:18:40. > :18:42.idea is that we are asking people to get together with their neighbours
:18:43. > :18:48.and share food, celebrating what we have in common. In thinking about
:18:49. > :18:52.how I marked the anniversary of Jo's death, I wanted it to reflect who
:18:53. > :18:58.she was, someone with great energy and enthusiasm for life. I didn't
:18:59. > :19:03.want it to be mournful. Also, it felt like the person that killed Jo
:19:04. > :19:08.was trying to divide communities and I can think of no better response
:19:09. > :19:11.than the anniversary bringing communities together. And you and
:19:12. > :19:15.the children will have a very busy and in some ways slightly traumatic
:19:16. > :19:21.few weeks going through all of this process. How are you coping? For us
:19:22. > :19:25.as a family, this is something that goes on and on. Individual days can
:19:26. > :19:31.be better or worse, it is not just the big moments. But the kids are
:19:32. > :19:34.here today and they are incredibly excited about the big get-together.
:19:35. > :19:39.They love planning a party and they know that their mum would have loved
:19:40. > :19:43.it. They will get a great breakfast after it. That is how we got them
:19:44. > :19:46.out of bed this morning. I think in terms of BBC impartiality I am still
:19:47. > :19:52.allowed to say good luck with all of that, Brendan Cox. Thanks.
:19:53. > :19:54.The Weather gods are angry about all this over-heated nonsense
:19:55. > :19:57.being talked in this election campaign, and they have punished
:19:58. > :20:00.London and the South in particular with short blasts of icy rain.
:20:01. > :20:03.But if their intention was to cool us down, it hasn't worked.
:20:04. > :20:06.Philip Avery is in the weather studio with more.
:20:07. > :20:11.If this was an interview, I would probably pick you up on the use of
:20:12. > :20:15.the word I see but I know what you mean. It has not been as warm as it
:20:16. > :20:19.might be. Although we are starting in a better vein on the western side
:20:20. > :20:23.of the British Isles. And even this dollar picture from the borders of
:20:24. > :20:27.Scotland is an improvement on what we had yesterday. Overnight we got
:20:28. > :20:31.rid of the persistent rain in the North of Scotland. And you weather
:20:32. > :20:34.feature spreading cloud and rain across Northern Ireland and
:20:35. > :20:37.eventually into the northern side of Scotland. Perhaps a little cloud
:20:38. > :20:40.producing the odd spot but nothing to write home about. A much improved
:20:41. > :20:45.situation on yesterday but you can see on the bigger picture there that
:20:46. > :20:52.there is a lot of fine weather to be had. The top temperature on the
:20:53. > :20:55.roundabout somewhere between London and Cambridge, 21, possibly 22, but
:20:56. > :20:57.the sun is strong at this time of year. Bear that in mind if you are
:20:58. > :21:00.spending some time out of this afternoon, that it could well burn
:21:01. > :21:05.you. No great problems with frost this evening or overnight, we are
:21:06. > :21:09.importing milder air from the continent. Monday, another sparkling
:21:10. > :21:12.day for many, although a new weather front will make its way from
:21:13. > :21:17.Northern Ireland into central and western parts of Scotland.
:21:18. > :21:21.Elsewhere, increasingly warm, I would thought, and the temperatures
:21:22. > :21:25.at this stage could well be pushing towards 24 or 25 degrees or so. It
:21:26. > :21:29.works to the wise, as we move on into the forthcoming week, this high
:21:30. > :21:33.pressure will deliver stable, I don't know about strong weather but
:21:34. > :21:37.increasingly warm weather and Andrew, I offer that prospect to the
:21:38. > :21:39.many, not the few. Whoever said you don't get good news
:21:40. > :21:43.on television these days? It's weird, but the 2015
:21:44. > :21:45.election now seems a lot Which party surprised
:21:46. > :21:48.the pundits and came third? As I say, it seems a long time ago,
:21:49. > :22:01.and Ukip's current leader, A simple question, today, what is
:22:02. > :22:04.the point of Ukip? Well, we're going into the selection with clear water
:22:05. > :22:07.between ourselves and the other political parties. We are the only
:22:08. > :22:11.party committed to cutting foreign aid and putting that money into the
:22:12. > :22:14.NHS and social care. We're the only party truly committed to cutting
:22:15. > :22:18.immigration and we have to be the guard dogs of Brexit because I fear
:22:19. > :22:21.that once this election is over and Theresa May comes back with a
:22:22. > :22:24.whopping majority that she will begin to backslide and that is why
:22:25. > :22:29.it is important that Ukip is there to ensure we get that we voted for
:22:30. > :22:33.on June 23. Clearly, you had a terrible night on the local
:22:34. > :22:38.elections, losing every one but one of the council seats you were
:22:39. > :22:42.defending. You have no MPs, few Welsh Assembly members left and that
:22:43. > :22:47.is about it. You are down to 2% in one of the polls today, Paddy Lowe
:22:48. > :22:50.indeed. And the factor of your party has basically said that you should
:22:51. > :22:58.wind it up. I'm sure he would have said that because he seems to say
:22:59. > :23:01.that about every single election. We knew that those local elections were
:23:02. > :23:05.always going to be the most difficult that we have ever fought.
:23:06. > :23:08.They were made stubbornly difficult by the fact that Theresa May called
:23:09. > :23:11.the general election so they were fought on national issues but
:23:12. > :23:15.however Ukip has a great future and I predict that after the selection
:23:16. > :23:18.Ukip could be bigger than it has ever been before because if she
:23:19. > :23:24.begins the backslide, and I think that she will, and I think there
:23:25. > :23:27.will be our deal on freedom of movement and there will be a divorce
:23:28. > :23:31.bill. People did not vote on that last year. Let's come to some of
:23:32. > :23:35.those issues directly. You say you were going to hold her feet to the
:23:36. > :23:39.fire and be guard dogs over Brexit, how can you be guard dogs without
:23:40. > :23:45.MPs? It does not matter how many MPs you have. If you think back to 2013,
:23:46. > :23:48.we fought the British Prime Minister David Cameron into offering a
:23:49. > :23:53.referendum he never wanted to give, but we did not have an MP at that
:23:54. > :23:59.time. Ukip needs to be elect Aurelia vital goal -- electorally viable, it
:24:00. > :24:02.needs to do well in the local elections, and I believe we will do
:24:03. > :24:06.very well indeed. You have said that you were going to get into double
:24:07. > :24:10.figures with MPs. Can you look me in the eye and tell me that is going to
:24:11. > :24:15.happen? I was in Dagenham in Clacton yesterday, or we are strong, and we
:24:16. > :24:21.are still strong. Will you window seats? There is a good chance that
:24:22. > :24:26.we will. -- will you win those seats. We are campaigning and there
:24:27. > :24:30.response is great. Your immigration policy is in effect, one in, one
:24:31. > :24:35.out, is that right? It is balanced migration. It basically boils down
:24:36. > :24:39.to the fact that we have a population problem in this country
:24:40. > :24:42.and if we continue to allow a city the size of Newcastle upon Tyne to
:24:43. > :24:46.come in every year, as we are doing at the moment, it is Birmingham
:24:47. > :24:49.every three years, we will have a population of 80 million by the
:24:50. > :24:53.middle of the century and that is not sustainable. So a very dramatic
:24:54. > :24:57.change from the situation are in now. At the time of the referendum
:24:58. > :25:02.campaign, I remember Nigel Farage saying that this was good news for
:25:03. > :25:06.the new Commonwealth countries, because we were going to stop taking
:25:07. > :25:11.in the Europeans. Let me give you an example of why under your policy,
:25:12. > :25:13.there would be a problem. A Bangladeshi family like Family
:25:14. > :25:18.Reunion is and they want to bring their auntie is over. Under that
:25:19. > :25:24.policy -- under your policy, that would effectively be impossible. No.
:25:25. > :25:28.If you have skills we require, we will have an Australian style points
:25:29. > :25:32.system, you can come over here and work with the Visa. Just as it is in
:25:33. > :25:36.Canada and the United States. Because of the moment we cannot
:25:37. > :25:39.continue on the road we are on. The other political parties want to turn
:25:40. > :25:44.away. When I brought this up at a debate the other night, the Green
:25:45. > :25:48.Party, Plaid Cymru and the SNP, they laughed at me. We are the only party
:25:49. > :25:51.with a sensible policy to reduce the numbers. Part of the reason they
:25:52. > :25:54.want more immigration is that they look at the condition of the British
:25:55. > :25:58.economy at the moment and it relies on migrant labour coming into this
:25:59. > :26:04.country. The Office for Budget Responsibility as catalytic that if
:26:05. > :26:08.we cut immigration to 185,000, vastly more than you are suggesting,
:26:09. > :26:13.that would cost the Treasury ?6 billion a year in lost revenue. How
:26:14. > :26:18.much will your policy cost the Treasury? At the moment we are
:26:19. > :26:22.allowing in about 360,000. We are saying that we want to reduce that
:26:23. > :26:26.figure to zero. There will still be people coming into the country. It
:26:27. > :26:30.is not as if we are going to put up the drawbridge in any way, shape or
:26:31. > :26:35.form. What we are going to do, this is going to be done over five years.
:26:36. > :26:39.So it needs a lot of wriggle room and we need people to come into the
:26:40. > :26:42.country. They can come in and they can work. But economic isn't
:26:43. > :26:45.everything, it is also about social cohesion and at the moment, we have
:26:46. > :26:49.communities which have been tipped upside down over recent years
:26:50. > :26:52.because too many people are coming into the country too quickly, not
:26:53. > :26:56.learning English and not integrating. So what is your message
:26:57. > :26:59.to that Bangladeshi family? Is it that actually you can have your
:27:00. > :27:06.Family Reunion but you are better off to do it in Bangladesh than
:27:07. > :27:09.London? That will be tapered into our immigration policy and we have
:27:10. > :27:12.our manifesto launched on Wednesday. You can come back and interview me
:27:13. > :27:15.on that issue in a couple of weeks, but I will say that somebody has to
:27:16. > :27:18.get immigration under control because at this present moment in
:27:19. > :27:24.time, we are allowing too many people to come into the country.
:27:25. > :27:29.There was a recent report in recent years by Trevor Phillips, showing
:27:30. > :27:34.that integration is getting worse in this country, not better, and it is
:27:35. > :27:38.down to the amount of people that are coming in. Do you think you have
:27:39. > :27:42.taken the issue of Ukip at just the wrong time. Everybody was in the bar
:27:43. > :27:47.knocking back pints and all the rest of it but Nigel Farage, and now it
:27:48. > :27:54.is your turn and you have got up to buy your round and U-turning -- and
:27:55. > :28:03.you turn your back and everyone has scarpered. I am leading Ukip at a
:28:04. > :28:07.different time. When we had Nigel Farage, we had David Cameron who did
:28:08. > :28:14.not want to leave the union. Now we have Theresa May walking the walk --
:28:15. > :28:17.document that, but when push comes to shove, will she walk the walk?
:28:18. > :28:20.The narrative in this election is that Theresa May is
:28:21. > :28:21.hyper-cautious and shies away from any risk.
:28:22. > :28:24.Odd then, that the Conservative manifesto contained so much
:28:25. > :28:26.challenging news for the one group above all others
:28:27. > :28:27.that actually votes - pensioners.
:28:28. > :28:34.The Work and Pensions Secretary, Damian Green, is with me.
:28:35. > :28:46.Damian Green, welcome. Thank you for coming in. Do you recognise this
:28:47. > :28:52.document? I do. Who produced it? The Conservative Party. And what does it
:28:53. > :28:55.contain? It contains detailed costing of the week that Labour
:28:56. > :28:59.approach any problem, which is to say there is a magic money tree, and
:29:00. > :29:05.we just need to take money off businesses and people and that will
:29:06. > :29:08.solve problems. But you and I remember the 1970s. You would agree
:29:09. > :29:14.that this is a very detailed costing. It exposes the Labour
:29:15. > :29:18.manifesto for being just a Charente. There is another document. Why does
:29:19. > :29:24.this have no detailed costing at all? Why is this an arm cost of
:29:25. > :29:27.document? Because the difference between the Conservative Party and
:29:28. > :29:30.the Labour Party is that we produce realistic policies to deal with the
:29:31. > :29:36.real problems in this country, some of which raise money. Is that not
:29:37. > :29:42.double standards? No. Some of our pledges are to spend less money or
:29:43. > :29:46.move money around, so it is spent in the right places. It is spent
:29:47. > :29:49.supporting people, not just saying that the only solution is more money
:29:50. > :29:53.and we will do that by taxing British business. You were talking
:29:54. > :29:59.about this overexcited weekend that we're having at the moment. I think
:30:00. > :30:03.this will focus people's minds on the fact that in less than a month's
:30:04. > :30:08.time, Jeremy Corbyn could be leading Brexit negotiations, and given
:30:09. > :30:10.Labour's complete lack of credibility, their nonsensical
:30:11. > :30:16.economic policy as well as their own policies, nobody really wants that.
:30:17. > :30:22.They have given us quite detailed accounts of how much tax they would
:30:23. > :30:28.raise and from whom. Let me talk about the black holes in your
:30:29. > :30:31.manifesto. You say you are going to pay another ?8 billion on the NHS.
:30:32. > :30:38.Where is that money going to come from? We produced a budget a few
:30:39. > :30:42.months ago, so all the detailed costings for Conservative policies
:30:43. > :30:47.are already there. This is extra money for the NHS. I'm just asking
:30:48. > :30:52.you where it comes from. Extra taxes, extra borrowing or cuts
:30:53. > :30:56.somewhere else? A lot of it is read targeted money from within the
:30:57. > :31:01.system, because we know we can do things better. It's how we can
:31:02. > :31:07.promise more on mental health, for instance. From various parts of the
:31:08. > :31:12.NHS and other parts of the public sector, for example. One of the
:31:13. > :31:18.things you were talking about earlier, social care. Last week, it
:31:19. > :31:23.would it was said that there was going to be an extra ?1 billion for
:31:24. > :31:28.the Armed Forces. Where is that going to come from? We are going to
:31:29. > :31:33.target winter fuel allowance on those who really need them, and the
:31:34. > :31:37.money we save from that can be targeted to the health and social
:31:38. > :31:41.care system. That seems to as a sensible way of dealing with one of
:31:42. > :31:47.the big issues facing the country. How much money will you raise from
:31:48. > :31:53.cutting winter fuel payments? We said we would consult on that. We
:31:54. > :32:01.know it costs about ?2 billion. We will see, because we haven't set
:32:02. > :32:08.the... It is an uncosted, black hole document. It is not an cost it. We
:32:09. > :32:14.are saying that the money we save on the winter fuel payments going to
:32:15. > :32:17.Mick Jagger and indeed John McDonnell, that would be better
:32:18. > :32:23.spent on the social care system, which needs more money. Lots of
:32:24. > :32:26.people watching this programme are not very, very wealthy. They are
:32:27. > :32:31.pensioners, wondering at what level they are going to lose their winter
:32:32. > :32:35.fuel payments. They are very concerned. And you are not going to
:32:36. > :32:40.tell them. We will consult so that everyone who is in genuine need of
:32:41. > :32:43.the winter fuel payment will still get it, but we think the money that
:32:44. > :32:57.is currently being spent on people who need it less, many of
:32:58. > :33:00.whom have come up and said to me over the years, should I really be
:33:01. > :33:03.getting this? That money is better spent in a social care system that
:33:04. > :33:05.we all agree is one of the challenges facing our system. We
:33:06. > :33:11.deal with the big challenges facing this country, but Labour do not. You
:33:12. > :33:14.have reams of clever people trawling through the Labour Party promises
:33:15. > :33:19.and costing them all, and telling you what it might cost. Your
:33:20. > :33:23.document, those clever people are saying nothing to pensioners
:33:24. > :33:27.watching this programme, who need to know before voting day that they are
:33:28. > :33:33.going to lose payments. Do they not deserve that? They will know that if
:33:34. > :33:39.they are in genuine need of the winter of your payments, they will
:33:40. > :33:43.still get it. After the election, we will consult on it, because that is
:33:44. > :33:49.the sensible way to do it. That's the way a grown up government will
:33:50. > :33:54.operate. You say, here is the broad proposal, the manifesto, that will
:33:55. > :33:58.cause interest among commentators. It's not commentators interested in
:33:59. > :34:03.it, it's pensioners watching this programme who are wondering that if
:34:04. > :34:08.they vote Conservative on June the 8th, will they lose their winter
:34:09. > :34:12.fuel payment on June the 15th? They will be able to contribute to the
:34:13. > :34:18.consultation. Those pensioners will know that we have massively reduced
:34:19. > :34:23.pension poverty, one of the great thing is that successive government
:34:24. > :34:28.has done. In the 1970s, it was 40% of pensioners. We have got that down
:34:29. > :34:33.to 14% I'm proud that we have introduced the auto enrolled system,
:34:34. > :34:41.which means that millions more people are now saving for a pension.
:34:42. > :34:45.We are looking ahead generations, long-term, not just the election. We
:34:46. > :34:55.have some well slipped sideways away from winter fuel payments. You need
:34:56. > :35:00.that money, and David Cameron said at the time of the last election,
:35:01. > :35:05.talking about the then Labour Party to take winter few payments away
:35:06. > :35:09.from only the top 5%, by restricting these payments is the only you make
:35:10. > :35:14.big savings. He said, once they start chipping away at these
:35:15. > :35:18.payments, believe me, before long, they will start getting wood of them
:35:19. > :35:23.altogether, and people who work hard all their lives will be written off
:35:24. > :35:27.and forgotten about. We have identified social care is one of the
:35:28. > :35:32.big issues that older people and their children care about. We think
:35:33. > :35:39.that restricting winter fuel payment to those who genuinely need it... We
:35:40. > :35:43.as a country will decide what that is in a proper consultation, which
:35:44. > :35:49.is the way governments should operate. So you will not tell people
:35:50. > :35:54.now. Releasing that money for use in the social care system is a great
:35:55. > :35:59.way to start improving our social care system, which is vital to many
:36:00. > :36:05.people, at the same time as allowing them to keep their home, letting
:36:06. > :36:08.them know they can pass on ?100,000 to the next generation. Can you
:36:09. > :36:22.remind people watching what the conservative policy was in 2015
:36:23. > :36:24.on social care? The policy was, broadly speaking, to continue what
:36:25. > :36:30.had happened before. It was the still not proposals. And the cap
:36:31. > :36:42.was... The amount people could save was 20 3000. The cap was going to be
:36:43. > :36:47.about 70 2000. -- ?72,000. We know that they are going to be 2 million
:36:48. > :36:54.more over 75 in ten years' time, which is great. We are all living
:36:55. > :36:59.longer. We have not broken our promises, because we have devised a
:37:00. > :37:05.better system. The idea that the only people could pass on was
:37:06. > :37:09.?23,000 is being replaced by our idea in the manifesto that they will
:37:10. > :37:15.be able to pass on 100,000. The crucial difference is that the value
:37:16. > :37:20.of their house is now taken into account as an asset if they are
:37:21. > :37:26.being cared for at home. Let's think of a constituency like Ashford in
:37:27. > :37:31.Kent, where the average value of a house is ?240,000. If there is a
:37:32. > :37:35.widow living in an average house in Ashford, under the new policy, how
:37:36. > :37:41.much extra might she have to pay? If she is living on her own, she will
:37:42. > :37:51.be able to stay in her house throughout her lifetime. If she's
:37:52. > :37:55.not a widow, if she is married, her spouse will be able to stay in her
:37:56. > :38:00.house for their lifetime. I'm just suggesting, she has dementia, poor
:38:01. > :38:04.woman. She is being looked after in her own home in Ashford. How much
:38:05. > :38:11.extra will she have to pay under your policy? She won't be paying
:38:12. > :38:17.anything. She will. She won't be paying anything. She can stay at
:38:18. > :38:24.home, if she is able to be cared for at home. Quite rightly, she will be
:38:25. > :38:29.able to stay there. How much extra? It will depend on the other costs,
:38:30. > :38:38.but what her children can know, or whoever she wants to leave money to,
:38:39. > :38:42.she... She's going to pay an extra ?70,000, twice what she would have
:38:43. > :38:49.been paying under the previous policy. I suspect that figure
:38:50. > :38:52.requires some assumptions. She will be able to vote Conservative, as
:38:53. > :38:57.will her children, because they will know that what ever level of care
:38:58. > :39:01.she needs, this removes that terrible decision of how long you
:39:02. > :39:07.should keep someone at home, or maybe put them into residential
:39:08. > :39:10.care. That decision needn't be influenced by financial
:39:11. > :39:20.considerations. Everyone can be confident that they... Let them
:39:21. > :39:25.inherit ?100,000 as opposed to the ?23,000 that was there before. Let
:39:26. > :39:29.us talk about inheritance and cascading the wealth through
:39:30. > :39:33.generations. Let's take the example of Twickenham, where Vince Cable for
:39:34. > :39:39.the Lib Dems is fighting you hard. An average house their costs
:39:40. > :39:44.?545,000. Imagine we have a couple where the chap has early-onset
:39:45. > :39:50.dementia and is being cared for at home. Under your proposals, they
:39:51. > :39:52.could lose virtually everything. Their children and their
:39:53. > :40:00.grandchildren, hoping to inherit some of that wealth, will not be
:40:01. > :40:09.able to. It was going to be 500, it is now 100. ?100,000 is a reasonable
:40:10. > :40:13.inheritance to have. People who are lucky enough to have great rises in
:40:14. > :40:20.property value will still decide that ?100,000 is best way of it.
:40:21. > :40:24.This has to be put in the context of funding the social care system. I
:40:25. > :40:29.understand there is a problem, I'm just asking you about your answers
:40:30. > :40:33.to it. More money goes into the social care system. Everybody knows
:40:34. > :40:41.there will be a decent inheritance for them. Nobody will have to lose
:40:42. > :40:44.their home during their lifetime. This is a much fairer system. The
:40:45. > :40:49.Conservatives used to believe in inheritance. This is a vast, secret
:40:50. > :40:57.inheritance tax. You remember the Bow group? You are a kind of no
:40:58. > :41:03.group guys. The Bow group has gone off on a journey! They say this is
:41:04. > :41:09.the biggest stealth tax in history. They are wrong. We are saying
:41:10. > :41:14.everyone can inherit ?100,000, regardless of the costs that the
:41:15. > :41:19.state and therefore the taxpayer has paid to them. One of the big issues
:41:20. > :41:26.that is facing this country is intergenerational fairness. Let me
:41:27. > :41:32.finish. You have to be fair to people working now and paying taxes,
:41:33. > :41:38.that is the only other way to pay for the care system. This system we
:41:39. > :41:41.are proposing is fair both to pensioners, and particularly the
:41:42. > :41:45.minority of pensioners who might need long-term care, and for working
:41:46. > :41:52.taxpayers. You can ask John McDonnell. I will ask him the
:41:53. > :41:56.questions I want to. Life is unfair generally. It is unfair that some
:41:57. > :42:01.people get dementia and some don't. Under the recent deal not system, we
:42:02. > :42:05.spread out the unfairness. If you are very unlucky and you get a
:42:06. > :42:10.terrible disease meaning that you are being looked after at home, the
:42:11. > :42:17.rest of society will come in and help. You don't have to pay again.
:42:18. > :42:24.Under the new proposals, here is what Sir Andrew deal not himself has
:42:25. > :42:27.said. People will be left helpless, knowing that they will be an
:42:28. > :42:34.entirely on their own until they are down to the last ?100,000 of all
:42:35. > :42:38.their wealth, including their house. There are two problems with what
:42:39. > :42:44.Andrew Dilnott proposed in a series of proposals. One is that the social
:42:45. > :42:50.insurance he proposed as a way of doing it, there are just no products
:42:51. > :42:57.therefore it. That market doesn't exist. And the other is that his
:42:58. > :43:03.problem, setting a cap on the floor, meant that the distribution of the
:43:04. > :43:10.benefits became wildly uneven. We are a party that, at Theresa May
:43:11. > :43:16.wants a country that works for everyone, so it's got to work for
:43:17. > :43:20.people not just in Ashford and Twickenham, but also in Hartlepool,
:43:21. > :43:25.North Wales and Scotland. Allowing everyone to know that there is this
:43:26. > :43:30.flat figure of ?100,000, fair to everyone. Briefly, in Ashford,
:43:31. > :43:34.Twickenham and other places, people hate this policy and it makes them
:43:35. > :43:40.very nervous indeed. Is there any chance you will look at it again?
:43:41. > :43:44.No. What we said in the manifesto, to put that answer in context, is
:43:45. > :43:49.that we have set out this policy that we will not look at again.
:43:50. > :43:53.There will be a Green paper covering social care and health coming out in
:43:54. > :43:57.the summer. We all know that the long-term solution to the social
:43:58. > :44:07.care crisis is better integration of the NHS and social care. This is the
:44:08. > :44:10.first step towards that. For now, thank you very much for driving us.
:44:11. > :44:13.the Sunday Politics with Andrew Neil.
:44:14. > :44:15.He'll be speaking to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury,
:44:16. > :44:18.David Gauke, and taking a closer look at the state of the polls.
:44:19. > :44:20.That's at 11 o'clock here on BBC One.
:44:21. > :44:26.I'm joined now by the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell.
:44:27. > :44:33.You will have heard all about. Before we start, can I pay tribute
:44:34. > :44:36.to Brendan Cox. I thought that was extremely moving and extremely
:44:37. > :44:41.courageous as well, what he has done. Thank you very much. Can I ask
:44:42. > :44:45.you, talking about social care, what is the Labour policy on funding
:44:46. > :44:48.social care? Immediately, we're promised to put in ?8 billion over
:44:49. > :44:53.the lifetime of Parliament to plug the gap that the Conservatives have
:44:54. > :44:57.treated. Part of this crisis is not just about an ageing population. It
:44:58. > :45:02.is also about the ?4.7 billion that has been cut by the Conservatives
:45:03. > :45:08.from social care since 2010. We are suggesting that we need to get back
:45:09. > :45:13.to the dill not proposals. Including a cap? Let's be clear, what he
:45:14. > :45:21.recommended was a cap, which I agree with. If you remember, the
:45:22. > :45:25.recommendation coming out of David Cameron was ?72,000. And you would
:45:26. > :45:27.stick with around that? I think so. The point you make about the
:45:28. > :45:33.lottery, what condition would you get? The reason that some people are
:45:34. > :45:38.calling it a dementia taxes because you do not know what condition you
:45:39. > :45:44.will suffer West. I tell you, I have been through this in my family, and
:45:45. > :45:48.the burden falls upon you. The proposal from the Dilnot was also to
:45:49. > :45:53.have a threshold as well so there would be enough to protect your
:45:54. > :45:57.assets but he said this basic principle, the NHS principle, you
:45:58. > :46:01.pull the risk, and that way people are not left on their own. I gave
:46:02. > :46:05.Damian Green some examples and I will give you an example as well.
:46:06. > :46:08.Think of a couple living in Burnley, a constituency that is strongly
:46:09. > :46:12.fought over at the moment. The average house could be worth less
:46:13. > :46:17.than ?100,000 and for people who need social care at home in
:46:18. > :46:20.birdlike, the labour heartland, this is great news. It means they will
:46:21. > :46:26.not have to pay a penny. It gives them security. OK. My daughters live
:46:27. > :46:30.near Burnley and property prices are increasing their as they are around
:46:31. > :46:35.the country. What we want to do is make sure that there is a pooled
:46:36. > :46:38.risk so that everyone is certain. The concept that we are all in this
:46:39. > :46:47.together I think is the right one to apply to health as well as social
:46:48. > :46:50.care. In that way, that is why we supported Dilnot but we also
:46:51. > :46:53.approached a -- of supported a cross-party approach because we need
:46:54. > :47:00.something sustainable across generations. That is why we are said
:47:01. > :47:06.to the Conservative Party, pool this, and go back to what Dilnot was
:47:07. > :47:13.proposing. I think that we have been let down because of what was in the
:47:14. > :47:17.Conservative manifesto. Let me at you about your own manifesto. Will
:47:18. > :47:23.you end the freeze on welfare? We will put in ?30 million over the
:47:24. > :47:28.term of the next Parliament. The implication of that will be that
:47:29. > :47:31.basically the freeze, the impact of these proposals will make it
:47:32. > :47:38.relevant because we will reform the process. You know what I have said
:47:39. > :47:41.when the freeze was introduced to... I am interested that when I say,
:47:42. > :47:46.will you end of the freeze on benefits you cannot simply say yes.
:47:47. > :47:50.In effect, we will be doing that as part of the overall reform package
:47:51. > :47:53.which includes the introduction of a real living wage as well, which
:47:54. > :47:57.includes the reform of Universal credits and a range of other aspects
:47:58. > :48:01.including scrapping the bedroom tax, sanctions etc. What about child tax
:48:02. > :48:07.credits? Are you going to restore those? We are looking at an overall
:48:08. > :48:13.and comrades of reform. You should be able to say yes. You said you
:48:14. > :48:17.were going to abolish it. People know how strongly I feel about this.
:48:18. > :48:21.And Jeremy Corbyn. That is why I'd use that expression. That is wiped
:48:22. > :48:24.my first budget, the reforms that we will bring forward will make sure
:48:25. > :48:28.that people are not just protected but that the system will be reformed
:48:29. > :48:33.to benefit them. If you are angry about it, you could reverse it. The
:48:34. > :48:37.resolution foundation on which the Labour Party has rested heavily says
:48:38. > :48:41.that 78% of Conservative cuts under your proposals will not be reversed.
:48:42. > :48:47.I do not accept that. I think the proposals that will be put forward
:48:48. > :48:51.on reform, as we have set out already, will ensure that in effect
:48:52. > :48:54.we will be addressing this issue of how we reverse the benefit freeze
:48:55. > :48:58.itself. I want to do it as part of an overall reform package and not
:48:59. > :49:03.just pick it off one by one. I tell you, I feel so strongly on this
:49:04. > :49:08.issue that we will deliver this in the first budget. It will cost you
:49:09. > :49:12.?8 billion to do the things that I suggested. Socialism, as the man
:49:13. > :49:16.said, is the language of priorities. And your priorities as a government
:49:17. > :49:22.seem to be directed more towards middle-class families. You found ?11
:49:23. > :49:26.billion to reverse the university charges. And those fees mainly go to
:49:27. > :49:31.middle-class families. Why can you not find that money for people on
:49:32. > :49:35.benefits? We are putting ?30 billion into benefit changes to make sure we
:49:36. > :49:39.tackle the real issues and reform the system. ?30 billion is going in.
:49:40. > :49:43.Remember, I know what people are saying about the issue of tuition
:49:44. > :49:46.fees. For the first time we have seen that because the Tories are
:49:47. > :49:54.increasing tuition fees, we have just seen the percentage of state
:49:55. > :49:58.children declining. It is becoming a disincentive of our youngsters --
:49:59. > :50:01.for our youngsters to stay on which affects aspiring working class
:50:02. > :50:05.families. Let's look at another aspect of the manifesto. Higher
:50:06. > :50:12.taxes, and higher debt. You have said they will borrow roughly ?25
:50:13. > :50:19.billion a year for ten years, ?250 billion, a huge amount of money, but
:50:20. > :50:21.you have also said that you will nationalise privatised industries
:50:22. > :50:25.without telling us how much that will cost and at the end of all of
:50:26. > :50:32.this you will have less debt than before. Less in real terms? In
:50:33. > :50:36.relationship to trend GDP. So it is a smaller percent, a smaller figure?
:50:37. > :50:40.As the economy grows. That is the way that economists and others, the
:50:41. > :50:46.markets, value our economy. Let me take you through this. But that all
:50:47. > :50:51.the to get those numbers to work, that depends on a certain rate of
:50:52. > :50:54.growth of the economy otherwise it is meaningless. What is the rate of
:50:55. > :50:58.growth? Let me take you through this bit by bit because we need to unpick
:50:59. > :51:03.that. We will start off with the basic proposal as well. We published
:51:04. > :51:08.this. No other political party, certainly not be conservatives,
:51:09. > :51:14.have. You pick to Damian up on this one. Others, the ISS, other
:51:15. > :51:17.independent organisations have discussed the additional money
:51:18. > :51:21.needed for the Tory manifesto, ?40 billion. There is not a ? in their
:51:22. > :51:28.manifesto. It is completely unposted. He had a go at you and you
:51:29. > :51:31.are having a go at him. I want to come onto your own borrowing. We
:51:32. > :51:36.published this on the basis of every policy being costed and funded. On
:51:37. > :51:41.borrowing, on the ?25 billion, you know as well as I do that the OBR
:51:42. > :51:46.multiplier is one. That means for every ?1 human invest you get at
:51:47. > :51:50.least ?1 back. That will cover our borrowing as we go forward. The ?25
:51:51. > :51:55.billion a year, how have I arrived at that figure? It is from the CBI
:51:56. > :51:58.saying that we need ?500 billion investment over ten years. So less
:51:59. > :52:03.than a figure than the figure of economic growth that you require to
:52:04. > :52:08.fund your demands? The OPI analysis is that for every ?1 human best you
:52:09. > :52:11.will get a pound back so that will cover the borrowing itself. Can you
:52:12. > :52:15.give us a figure in terms of the economic growth that you require? It
:52:16. > :52:20.is cost neutral. It cannot be cost neutral if the economy is not
:52:21. > :52:27.growing. What I'm saying is that the OBR is saying very clearly that they
:52:28. > :52:33.have a multiplier ratio of one. So 1% growth? For every 1% investment,
:52:34. > :52:35.you get 1% back. All point of this is that I have put forward a
:52:36. > :52:42.programme that is completely cost neutral. I think we're not getting
:52:43. > :52:47.anywhere here. I am trying to say to you... So what is the theory behind
:52:48. > :52:50.nationalising? Our capital investment programme is cost neutral
:52:51. > :52:53.because for everything you put in, you get the money back. This is the
:52:54. > :52:57.Office for Budget Responsibility saying this, not me. On the
:52:58. > :53:01.nationalised industries we will issue bonds for share as meaning
:53:02. > :53:07.that we get an asset in return and again, that becomes cost neutral. In
:53:08. > :53:11.terms of costs involved, remember that we will be getting the income
:53:12. > :53:16.from those nationalised industries and that will cover the ability to
:53:17. > :53:19.reduce charges on the customers, and at the same time it will cover any
:53:20. > :53:23.costs incurred through investments that we need. I put it to you that
:53:24. > :53:27.this depends on economic growth and on the other side, apart from the
:53:28. > :53:32.top 5% that you are going for in terms of income tax and so forth,
:53:33. > :53:37.there is a raft of business taxes in there, higher corporation tax and a
:53:38. > :53:42.so-called Robin Hood tax. Taxes on companies that spend more than
:53:43. > :53:47.?330,000 on salaries. They make sense individually, but at a time
:53:48. > :53:50.when this country is on the edge of leaving the EU, and lots of
:53:51. > :53:54.companies and lots of individuals are thinking, shall I say in Britain
:53:55. > :53:59.or go somewhere else, this will have the effect of driving away the same
:54:00. > :54:02.people you need in this country? Quite the reverse, because what we
:54:03. > :54:08.do in terms of our spending policies is exactly what businesses have been
:54:09. > :54:12.asking for. Long-term, patient, stable investment. They are not
:54:13. > :54:15.asking for higher corporation tax. We're giving them the opportunity to
:54:16. > :54:19.invest in this country alongside government, that is why we are
:54:20. > :54:25.setting up a national investment bank. And this is fully costed based
:54:26. > :54:29.upon the principles of what... And can I say one thing very quickly,
:54:30. > :54:35.who told us that now is the time to invest because interest rates are
:54:36. > :54:38.virtually zero? David Cameron -- Philip Hammond, only a couple of
:54:39. > :54:41.months ago. Who knows whether he will be there in a couple of months.
:54:42. > :54:46.You have been discussing union green through me, and you will be able to
:54:47. > :54:49.talk to them directly in just a second but let's look at what is
:54:50. > :54:53.coming up straight after this programme. Join us at 10am and we
:54:54. > :54:58.will be debating one very big question. Will globalisation make
:54:59. > :55:03.the world a better place? We have assembled economics,
:55:04. > :55:07.environmentalists and seasoned economists to debate perhaps the
:55:08. > :55:14.biggest question facing all of us. See you at 10am on BBC One. Very
:55:15. > :55:20.interesting. Damian Green and John McDonnell are both back here. John
:55:21. > :55:23.just mentioned Philip Hammond, the Chancellor, there is a lot of talk
:55:24. > :55:27.that you are being lined up for his job. Have you had any conversation
:55:28. > :55:31.with anybody about this? No. Not at all. Philip Hammond is doing a great
:55:32. > :55:35.job as Chancellor and I'm sure he will continue to do so after the
:55:36. > :55:39.election. Can I address something that John said, he said we're not
:55:40. > :55:43.going to borrow anything but we will issue bonds. That is how governments
:55:44. > :55:48.borrow money. It is absurd to say that you can take the rail
:55:49. > :55:53.industry... And it is covered. You issue bonds for sharers, and the
:55:54. > :55:59.income from assets then covers the costs. Simple as that. It has been
:56:00. > :56:04.done by government after government. But that is borrowing. It is ?25
:56:05. > :56:08.billion plus ?40 billion for the national debt. You do not seem to
:56:09. > :56:13.know how governments borrow. But that is covered by the income from
:56:14. > :56:18.those assets, isn't it? Isn't it? If I take a mortgage on my house, I am
:56:19. > :56:22.borrowing huge of money. I have still borrow the money. These are
:56:23. > :56:28.operational companies who have profits. Those profits will... You
:56:29. > :56:32.are saying it is not borrowing. It is borrowing. I am still really
:56:33. > :56:35.interested in what you both think the economy needs to grow back,
:56:36. > :56:39.because John McDonnell was saying that your manifesto has ?14 billion
:56:40. > :56:43.of extra spending hidden inside it. That needs to come from somewhere.
:56:44. > :56:46.You have huge spending commitments and that needs to come from
:56:47. > :56:50.somewhere. This needs to come from the economy, how much does it have
:56:51. > :56:53.to increase? We are saying that for every level of investment we are
:56:54. > :56:59.putting in we will get an exact return or more solid balances out.
:57:00. > :57:04.This becomes cost neutral. We have funded it, we have funded it. In
:57:05. > :57:12.their manifesto, not a single ?. You have not funded a single any for the
:57:13. > :57:17.National Grid, the water industry, have the energy industry. This is
:57:18. > :57:22.fatuous economic talk. What happens is that you borrow the money.
:57:23. > :57:28.Exactly, you borrow the money, and that adds to your borrowing total.
:57:29. > :57:31.But what you're doing, in the water industry, you are an associate
:57:32. > :57:34.director of the country in the water industry. You were and you made
:57:35. > :57:39.quite a profit out of it. ?18 billion worth of profits paid out to
:57:40. > :57:42.shareholders during your period. And what we are going to do is take that
:57:43. > :57:48.money and instead of using it as dividends for rich people like you,
:57:49. > :57:54.we're going to ensure it covers the costs. We will instead... Settle
:57:55. > :57:58.down, both of you. Instead of giving that to dividends, we we use it to
:57:59. > :58:04.cut costs. You do not understand capitalism. You certainly do, don't
:58:05. > :58:09.you, because you have made a fortune out of the water companies. Can I
:58:10. > :58:12.ask one thing about the Conservative plans, because what you have not
:58:13. > :58:17.done is been very clear about what is going to happen to taxes if you
:58:18. > :58:22.are re-elected. Is the truth not that you will actually have to pay
:58:23. > :58:32.taxes up? ?14 billion means ?1000 on taxes. We have said that we are not
:58:33. > :58:38.going to increase VAT. How will you fund ?40 billion? Because we will
:58:39. > :58:45.not be clobbering businesses with every tax. ?40 billion will mean
:58:46. > :58:50.?1000 to the average person on income tax. The three people still
:58:51. > :58:57.watching are about to turn offer. Thank you to all my guests this
:58:58. > :59:02.week. Next week I will be joined by the Green Party's Caroline Lucas and
:59:03. > :59:06.Leanne Wood from Plaid Cymru. Thank you. Goodbye.