0:00:08 > 0:00:09been pushed off course by the hideous Manchester bombing.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12In other weeks we might have been talking about Brexit,
0:00:13 > 0:00:16All very important, but there's no getting away from it -
0:00:17 > 0:00:19one question is now at the centre of debate.
0:00:20 > 0:00:39Who do we most trust to keep Britain safe?
0:00:40 > 0:00:42After election day, one of these two women will be in charge
0:00:43 > 0:00:46of police and security on the streets of Britain.
0:00:47 > 0:00:51Should our next Home Secretary be Amber Rudd or Diane Abbott?
0:00:52 > 0:00:53And two party leaders with their take on terror.
0:00:54 > 0:01:05And on the line from Cardiff, Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood.
0:01:06 > 0:01:07Reviewing the news today, the BBC's North America Editor,
0:01:08 > 0:01:12Jon Sopel, just back from Trump on tour.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17And two people who've been inside government
0:01:18 > 0:01:20at times of crisis - the former Labour Home
0:01:21 > 0:01:22And David Cameron's former communications
0:01:23 > 0:01:25And we've been thinking about Manchester all week.
0:01:26 > 0:01:27Here to play us out this morning with a fresh take
0:01:28 > 0:01:30on a Hacienda club classic, vocalist Rowetta and musicians
0:01:31 > 0:01:48# Sometimes I feel like putting my hands up in the air.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52# I know I can count on you. # Sometimes I feel like saying, Lord
0:01:53 > 0:01:54I just don't care. # You've got the love I need to see
0:01:55 > 0:01:55me through. All that after the news, read for us
0:01:56 > 0:01:58this morning by Roger Johnson. Police investigating the terror
0:01:59 > 0:02:01attack in Manchester have released new images of Salman Abedi,
0:02:02 > 0:02:04the man who carried out the bombing. The CCTV pictures were taken
0:02:05 > 0:02:06in the hours before Police are asking anyone who may
0:02:07 > 0:02:13have seen him to contact them. Officers have arrested 11 people
0:02:14 > 0:02:15during searches of addresses Both the Conservatives and Labour
0:02:16 > 0:02:23are promising to improve security The Tories say they will set up
0:02:24 > 0:02:28a commission with statutory powers to advise the government
0:02:29 > 0:02:29on defeating extremism. Labour is pledging to recruit
0:02:30 > 0:02:32an extra 1000 staff to the security The Scottish National Party
0:02:33 > 0:02:43will today outline a plan to free up ?118 billion in extra public
0:02:44 > 0:02:45spending over the next five years. The SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon,
0:02:46 > 0:02:48says the proposals wuold help the economy grow
0:02:49 > 0:02:51and safeguard public services. The party will release its plans
0:02:52 > 0:03:07in detail when it publishes Destruction is continuing at
0:03:08 > 0:03:10Heathrow airport after widespread IT failure yesterday called -- caused
0:03:11 > 0:03:11planes to be grounded. Thousands of passengers
0:03:12 > 0:03:13were stranded at Heathrow and Gatwick airports yesterday,
0:03:14 > 0:03:21after all BA flights were cancelled. BA has just -- apologised for the
0:03:22 > 0:03:22disruption and advised passengers to check the status of their flights
0:03:23 > 0:03:23today. Sport finally, and Arsenal
0:03:24 > 0:03:25are celebrating after winning The 2-1 victory over Chelsea
0:03:26 > 0:03:29at Wembley ended a frustrating Arsenal's board are meeting
0:03:30 > 0:03:32on Tuesday to decide the future of the manager,
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Arsene Wenger. The next news on BBC
0:03:36 > 0:03:45One is at 12:15. Thank you.
0:03:46 > 0:03:54Now to the papers. One image dominates. Abedi, the
0:03:55 > 0:04:00bomber, just moments before he said the bomb off. We need the EU to
0:04:01 > 0:04:05combat terror, experts tell the Prime Minister. Minutes from mass
0:04:06 > 0:04:10murder, the sun on Sunday. The same in the Sunday Mirror. The Sunday
0:04:11 > 0:04:16Telegraph as a very small version of the photograph. The royal presence
0:04:17 > 0:04:21at the Manchester commemorations. Their story is about a minister
0:04:22 > 0:04:24attacking social media for being duplicitous in failing to halt
0:04:25 > 0:04:29terror attacks. We will hear a lot more about that in the programme.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34And finally, the Sunday Times, nervous Tories to relaunch Theresa
0:04:35 > 0:04:39May's campaign. All the opinion polls out today, the Sunday Times
0:04:40 > 0:04:46one shows the gap closest. And again, the picture of Abedi. Craig
0:04:47 > 0:04:53Oliver, I guess it is a morning of contrast in terms of the newspapers?
0:04:54 > 0:04:56Yeah, I think the contrast is some up by these photographs. One of
0:04:57 > 0:05:01Abedi just minutes before committing mass murder. I am trying to work out
0:05:02 > 0:05:06what was going on in his head at that time. He looks extraordinarily
0:05:07 > 0:05:10calm. But the most interesting thing is to look at the more human aspect.
0:05:11 > 0:05:18I think the paper 's blog is very well. The Sunday Mirror has got an
0:05:19 > 0:05:22article about a nurse in A She talks about finding nuts and bolts
0:05:23 > 0:05:27inside people's bodies. When she got home she cried because the reality
0:05:28 > 0:05:32was only just sinking in. Her only way of coping was to think of the
0:05:33 > 0:05:35goodness she saw that night and ever since. In all the talk about
0:05:36 > 0:05:41security, remembering these people and the price they paid is
0:05:42 > 0:05:44important. It is also interesting to remember that it has become
0:05:45 > 0:05:48fashionable to have a go at NHS managers. That sort of care happens
0:05:49 > 0:05:56because of the dedication of NHS staff and because it is prepared for
0:05:57 > 0:06:01and prepared for. That is why the NHS and other emergency services
0:06:02 > 0:06:05were able to step up the way they could on Monday. When you were home
0:06:06 > 0:06:10secretary, one of the things you would have been doing was trying to
0:06:11 > 0:06:15track where the bombers had come from. There is some interesting
0:06:16 > 0:06:20analysis in the papers today about the international links to the
0:06:21 > 0:06:26current terror threat. And actually, this history of Abedi and his
0:06:27 > 0:06:31family, there are links to Libya -- there are links to Libya. This is a
0:06:32 > 0:06:35challenge. Ten years ago we were talking about Afghanistan, Pakistan,
0:06:36 > 0:06:40the border, the threat from Al-Qaeda. Actually, there was a lot
0:06:41 > 0:06:45of focus on the threat from jihadists travelling backwards and
0:06:46 > 0:06:50forwards to Syria. This appears to have been prompted by links to
0:06:51 > 0:06:55Libya. Libya collapsed as a state on David Cameron's watch. It was our
0:06:56 > 0:07:00intervention that knocked out the Gaddafi regime and unfortunately
0:07:01 > 0:07:04left a failed state. You see the reality of the convocation of this.
0:07:05 > 0:07:10The tendency is to want to look and see there are goodies and baddies.
0:07:11 > 0:07:16The reality is it is a very complex situation. You are right. This week
0:07:17 > 0:07:21has shown that. Jon Sopel, let's turn to you. A lot of social media
0:07:22 > 0:07:24coverage of this as well? Of course. This is one of the areas where you
0:07:25 > 0:07:28feel the technology of social media is so far ahead of any policy that
0:07:29 > 0:07:34knows how to deal with it. You have the security ministers talking about
0:07:35 > 0:07:41the duplicity, the completely duplicitous social media firms
0:07:42 > 0:07:44flooding information to questionable companies but refusing to help
0:07:45 > 0:07:47terror organisations. You're seeing it all over the world where you God
0:07:48 > 0:07:50got law-enforcement agencies who would love to get hold of some of
0:07:51 > 0:07:54the date of these companies have got. You are selling a project if
0:07:55 > 0:07:59you are one of the big technology companies and you want to encrypt it
0:08:00 > 0:08:04so your customers' material cannot be stolen. That is a major part
0:08:05 > 0:08:08investigation. This is about who in the world's most powerful. The
0:08:09 > 0:08:17people running WhatsApp are national governments? It is very far from
0:08:18 > 0:08:20clear. People obviously, understandably, in normal times talk
0:08:21 > 0:08:23about the right to privacy and guarding their own data. And when
0:08:24 > 0:08:28you get something like this, and it happened after San Bernardino in
0:08:29 > 0:08:34California, that people suddenly say, it is a national -- matter of
0:08:35 > 0:08:37national security. We have not even mentioned the word 's general
0:08:38 > 0:08:40election. But we are in the middle of a general election campaign.
0:08:41 > 0:08:48Theresa May has got an interview in the sun. She has written an article
0:08:49 > 0:08:55in the sun which is about the security. If you read most of the
0:08:56 > 0:08:58newspapers today, what you see is coverage of how the campaign is
0:08:59 > 0:09:02going for each party. There is a huge amount of stuff in here but the
0:09:03 > 0:09:05wobble in the Conservative Party over the past week. Tim Shipman has
0:09:06 > 0:09:11done a piece in the Sunday Times when he quoted MP saying, it is a
0:09:12 > 0:09:19major Kockott, Corbin cannot win this but we could lose it. --
0:09:20 > 0:09:22Corbyn. There is a real feeling that before the Manchester massacre there
0:09:23 > 0:09:27was a big wobble, that the U-turn over social care, and a real sense
0:09:28 > 0:09:31the campaign wasn't going as planned? If you run your campaign on
0:09:32 > 0:09:37the basis of your leader being strong and stable, you are arguing
0:09:38 > 0:09:41that we need to re-elect this person to handle the difficult Brexit
0:09:42 > 0:09:45negotiations, and then you have a monster mess up in your manifesto
0:09:46 > 0:09:52and your plans, it is going to cause a wobble. The message from the
0:09:53 > 0:09:55Conservatives now is we want to focus again on leadership. If there
0:09:56 > 0:10:01is one word we want to keep repeating it is Corbyn, Corbyn,
0:10:02 > 0:10:07Corbyn. You picked that up with the interview with Amber Rudd in The
0:10:08 > 0:10:15Mail on Sunday? Yes, there is an interview with her. She is asked if
0:10:16 > 0:10:19she was suggesting that there was a risk of another terror attack if
0:10:20 > 0:10:27Corbyn became Prime Minister. She says, absolutely, yes. Theresa May,
0:10:28 > 0:10:30news conference, which I went to at the G7 on Friday evening, she was
0:10:31 > 0:10:36trying to make absolutely clear the link between national security, safe
0:10:37 > 0:10:39with me, at risk if you let Jeremy Corbyn in. And of course Jeremy
0:10:40 > 0:10:46Corbyn does have some problems with his record. Looking back, his
0:10:47 > 0:10:48connections with the IRA. It is very difficult in the middle of an
0:10:49 > 0:10:53election campaign to accuse somebody else of supporting terrorism after
0:10:54 > 0:10:56something like Manchester. It is a question of good taste and what is
0:10:57 > 0:11:05appropriate to say. It is hard to get right. I agree with you. The
0:11:06 > 0:11:09terror attack was terrible. The juxtaposition with the general
0:11:10 > 0:11:13election campaign, which almost seems Nafta talk about, but it is
0:11:14 > 0:11:17casting a shadow. In one way you need the general election campaign
0:11:18 > 0:11:21to get back on track because it is that democratic process that the
0:11:22 > 0:11:26terror attack was partly against. But it's also difficult to judge
0:11:27 > 0:11:29rightly. This seems to me to be a mis-judgement, to start talking
0:11:30 > 0:11:33about how many people are going to get killed on the Jeremy Corbyn. To
0:11:34 > 0:11:36be fair to the Home Secretary, she has been asked the question and she
0:11:37 > 0:11:43has made the mistake and politics of actually answering. What we need to
0:11:44 > 0:11:49do is get this on to who is best to look after security. I think that
0:11:50 > 0:11:52the sun newspaper gives a dash of cold waters of the face and reminds
0:11:53 > 0:11:59people of what is happening. If you look at this graphic. Tories 46%,
0:12:00 > 0:12:05Labour 32%. On the issue of the economy, Theresa May is ahead.
0:12:06 > 0:12:13Security as well. Let's not get carried away. Two weeks to go,
0:12:14 > 0:12:16Craig. Political historians would say that it most election campaigns
0:12:17 > 0:12:19there are thrills and spills and at the end of them you get more or less
0:12:20 > 0:12:24the result you expected at the beginning. I agree with that. That
0:12:25 > 0:12:27is the lesson of most campaigns. There are other bits of collateral
0:12:28 > 0:12:32damage that can happen during the campaign as well. I was struck by a
0:12:33 > 0:12:38piece in the Observer. It says that favourability ratings for Theresa
0:12:39 > 0:12:45May suggest that more than a third of voters say their opinion of the
0:12:46 > 0:12:49Prime Minister is the more negative. For Jeremy Corbyn, the reverse. As
0:12:50 > 0:12:55the campaign has gone on, he seems to have grown in popularity. He is a
0:12:56 > 0:13:00real campaign. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, everybody is losing it.
0:13:01 > 0:13:06They're getting exhausted, snappy. It happens in every general election
0:13:07 > 0:13:09campaign. We now see the Prime Minister's special advisers
0:13:10 > 0:13:13allegedly feuding. Lots of people leaking from campaign headquarters.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18Having worked with Lynton Crosby in the past, the thing he was right
0:13:19 > 0:13:22about is that he does not want a running commentary on the campaign
0:13:23 > 0:13:27in the press. It is not working for a Magherafelt Today it has not gone
0:13:28 > 0:13:33brilliantly because there is quite a glut of running commentary. If you
0:13:34 > 0:13:42are an adviser, you don't want to become the story. A lot of the media
0:13:43 > 0:13:45are asking questions. That is something that in any campaign you
0:13:46 > 0:13:51want to be careful about. There are not many stories in the papers today
0:13:52 > 0:13:55of any campaign saying, this is something positive, we will do it.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00It is very difficult to keep things together. People are staking out
0:14:01 > 0:14:05their position. I never supported it anyway, I never briefed that. In one
0:14:06 > 0:14:09way that is understandable but incredibly unhelpful for the
0:14:10 > 0:14:16campaign. Let's move to politics elsewhere. John, you have been
0:14:17 > 0:14:19following Trump tours. We have enjoyed with a picture of him moving
0:14:20 > 0:14:26the guy aside in Montenegro. That Alpha Male moment. The best bit was
0:14:27 > 0:14:32not just the manoeuvre but what he did with his jacket, job done. We
0:14:33 > 0:14:36definitely need more machismo in politics! He has arrived back in
0:14:37 > 0:14:43Washington and he has had a holiday away the headlines. I guess the
0:14:44 > 0:14:47liberal fantasy from the moment he was elected was that he was going to
0:14:48 > 0:14:52be impeached. He will not last long. It is beginning to look a little
0:14:53 > 0:14:57less like a fantasy. Yes, the problems are mounting up. There is a
0:14:58 > 0:15:02story from the New York Times. Trump returns to crisis of Kushner as
0:15:03 > 0:15:07White House tries to contain it. It is a very similar story in the Wall
0:15:08 > 0:15:10Street Journal. Jared Kushner considered setting top secret
0:15:11 > 0:15:18communications with Russia. This suppose it back channel. The other
0:15:19 > 0:15:21big thing is the legally conversation Donald Trump had with
0:15:22 > 0:15:25Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, where he called James
0:15:26 > 0:15:29Comey a nut job. The really important bit was when he said, I
0:15:30 > 0:15:34had a lot of pressure on me, but now that I have got rid of my FBI
0:15:35 > 0:15:40director, that has gone. That leads to, are you obstructing justice?
0:15:41 > 0:15:47This is not a rumour, this is probably a leaked minute. Yes, it
0:15:48 > 0:15:54seems that was the official minute of the meeting saying the president
0:15:55 > 0:16:01thought he was a nutjob and by getting rid of him things were
0:16:02 > 0:16:06easier. It may be that there is no original Russian link but the
0:16:07 > 0:16:11attempts to cover things up and maybe fire the FBI director because
0:16:12 > 0:16:15of the job he was doing in Russia... It is always the cover-up. One of
0:16:16 > 0:16:18the great cliches. This connects to our election campaign and the
0:16:19 > 0:16:26terrible events here, because of all the leaks coming from the US. I'm
0:16:27 > 0:16:31interested in whether, when he gets back to Washington, he will do
0:16:32 > 0:16:34anything about the leak of the information related to the
0:16:35 > 0:16:40investigation in Manchester, which looked pretty outrageous to me. What
0:16:41 > 0:16:45was fascinating, it happened in Brussels on the final leg of the
0:16:46 > 0:16:50world tour. The White House staff came up to me and asked, why are the
0:16:51 > 0:16:55Brits making such a big fuss over this? There is a different culture
0:16:56 > 0:16:59in the US about revealing information, it seemed pretty
0:17:00 > 0:17:04commonplace about what was revealed in the New York Times. Sadly we have
0:17:05 > 0:17:07run out of time. Thank you very much indeed.
0:17:08 > 0:17:09This being the election campaign, we hear from
0:17:10 > 0:17:12In a moment, I'm going to be talking to the co-leader
0:17:13 > 0:17:15Joining me now from Cardiff, Plaid Cymru's Leanne Wood.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19This all takes place in the aftermath of Manchester of course
0:17:20 > 0:17:26and Wales has not been immune from either jihadist or victims of jihadi
0:17:27 > 0:17:30attacks so can I ask what Plaid Cymru's message to people who are
0:17:31 > 0:17:35thinking about how to vote and wondering about the security issue
0:17:36 > 0:17:41in particular, what is Plaid Cymru's message to them this morning? It
0:17:42 > 0:17:45makes no sense to us in Plaid Cymru for the public services that rose to
0:17:46 > 0:17:51the challenge and supported so many people in Manchester - the health
0:17:52 > 0:17:57service, the emergency services, the police - for those to be cut, and
0:17:58 > 0:18:02Manchester's police service have been cut and there are plans for
0:18:03 > 0:18:07more cuts. It is all for what happened. It is difficult to see how
0:18:08 > 0:18:11you can prevent it in the future but you can give people some more
0:18:12 > 0:18:15confidence by making sure that the plan is in place and that emergency
0:18:16 > 0:18:19services are properly resourced to deal with things. We wouldn't need
0:18:20 > 0:18:25troops on the streets perhaps if there were enough police officers on
0:18:26 > 0:18:29the streets. That's very good answer about the aftermath of the attack
0:18:30 > 0:18:34but what about catching people first? Plaid Cymru MPs have voted
0:18:35 > 0:18:39again again against surveillance legislation in the House of Commons.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44Aren't you basically on the wrong side of this argument? We are
0:18:45 > 0:18:47against mass surveillance, in favour of more targeted surveillance. It
0:18:48 > 0:18:52makes sense that if people are under suspicion the police need to keep a
0:18:53 > 0:18:57close eye on them though we support resources for that. The idea of
0:18:58 > 0:19:02watching everyone and being able to access everyone's e-mails and
0:19:03 > 0:19:07communications, that's where we have a problem and where our MPs have
0:19:08 > 0:19:10voted consistently against the snoopers charter for example. And
0:19:11 > 0:19:14this is the heart of the argument because nobody really thinks the
0:19:15 > 0:19:19police will look at all of our e-mails and survey everybody. They
0:19:20 > 0:19:23have 23,000 suspected jihadis in this country and they cannot deal
0:19:24 > 0:19:26with them so this fantasy there will be mass surveillance of everybody,
0:19:27 > 0:19:34everybody will be watched by the big state if we allow these laws, it is
0:19:35 > 0:19:37ridiculous. But if you're looking to keep people under surveillance,
0:19:38 > 0:19:42there is a very intensive activity and the police need to be adequately
0:19:43 > 0:19:46resourced to do that. It is better that they watch those people who are
0:19:47 > 0:19:51at most risk and keep a close eye on those rather than the entire
0:19:52 > 0:19:57population. There is such a thing as information overload and it's better
0:19:58 > 0:20:00to concentrate resources. They were never asking to look at the entire
0:20:01 > 0:20:04population. They know who they need to look at and they need the
0:20:05 > 0:20:09resources for that. After Manchester a lot of people were saying we need
0:20:10 > 0:20:15to think again about the issue of security, so are you in Plaid Cymru
0:20:16 > 0:20:20thinking about it again? You have to review security all the time. It is
0:20:21 > 0:20:25terrible this has happened but it is the most serious incident that has
0:20:26 > 0:20:30happened since 2005 so something is clearly working in some ways but
0:20:31 > 0:20:34then on the other hand the person responsible for this was brought to
0:20:35 > 0:20:38the attention of authorities, something that there are serious
0:20:39 > 0:20:43questions that need to be answered as to why action wasn't taken
0:20:44 > 0:20:49earlier to prevent this. So we need to learn lessons from this, it is a
0:20:50 > 0:20:53cliche to say maybe but you have to review at all times. The army and
0:20:54 > 0:20:58some of the armed police are coming off the streets and so forth quite
0:20:59 > 0:21:03soon. You have a huge event in Cardiff, the Champions League coming
0:21:04 > 0:21:09up next weekend, do you want to see more armed police for that? I want
0:21:10 > 0:21:13to see it adequately resourced, security wise, obviously. It will be
0:21:14 > 0:21:17a big event, many people are going to come to Wales. I don't think
0:21:18 > 0:21:22people should be put off from coming, it will be an amazing event.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27I'm sure that by making sure the security side is properly resourced,
0:21:28 > 0:21:34people will have the confidence to come. Thank you for talking to us.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38And so to Caroline Lucas. Are you thinking again in the Green Party
0:21:39 > 0:21:44about security issues after Manchester? We are always
0:21:45 > 0:21:48considering and reconsidering in the light of evidence that comes
0:21:49 > 0:21:51forward. Apparently people were reporting concerns about Salman
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Abedi well before the Manchester atrocity so certainly one of the
0:21:56 > 0:22:00questions is why weren't resources put into following that up at the
0:22:01 > 0:22:05time? Certainly questions need to be answered but also it is clear the
0:22:06 > 0:22:09blame for what happened in Manchester is solely with the
0:22:10 > 0:22:14perpetrator himself, it was an absolutely appalling atrocity. It
0:22:15 > 0:22:19happens in the context and its right to look at that from the levels of
0:22:20 > 0:22:24policing right through to the debate that the Labour Party started this
0:22:25 > 0:22:30week. And presumably the Internet as well, you said in your manifesto you
0:22:31 > 0:22:35think the Internet should be free of surveillance. Knowing jihadi groups
0:22:36 > 0:22:38and extremist groups use an encrypted messaging on the Internet
0:22:39 > 0:22:44and also use the Internet to promote the hate filled messages, do you
0:22:45 > 0:22:49think that is a sensible policy? Our policy is about opposing industrial
0:22:50 > 0:22:53scale surveillance of e-mails. There are plenty of people you would see
0:22:54 > 0:22:56as being on the side of the argument that are wanting to make sure we
0:22:57 > 0:23:01crack down on this as hard as possible, who would save bigger you
0:23:02 > 0:23:06make the haystack in which you are looking for the needle, the harder
0:23:07 > 0:23:09it is to find it, so having the extra surveillance doesn't work.
0:23:10 > 0:23:14Targeted surveillance makes the difference and that is what we are
0:23:15 > 0:23:19in favour of. Are you saying you don't want the police to have extra
0:23:20 > 0:23:23powers of surveillance? We opposed the snoopers Charter on the grounds
0:23:24 > 0:23:29that there was evidence that suggested it wasn't going to be
0:23:30 > 0:23:32effective. It wasn't on only a civil liberties line, although that is
0:23:33 > 0:23:34important, it was about how effective is it if you are
0:23:35 > 0:23:39increasing the number of people you are putting under surveillance, if
0:23:40 > 0:23:44you are mass trawling. People like myself are on the domestic extremist
0:23:45 > 0:23:49list, peaceful and environmentalists are on that list. How does that help
0:23:50 > 0:23:55if police resources are being spent looking after people like myself
0:23:56 > 0:24:03rather than people who pose a serious risk? Do you think ending
0:24:04 > 0:24:08end to end encryption is wrong? No. So you would like to see this end to
0:24:09 > 0:24:13end encryption, very controversial, you would like to see it ended? I
0:24:14 > 0:24:19want to take advice from the security services about what they
0:24:20 > 0:24:24think needs to keep us safe. One thing we do know is that Abedi's
0:24:25 > 0:24:28friends and family contacted the state, did what they were supposed
0:24:29 > 0:24:36to do through the Prevent mechanism, but you have called Prevent
0:24:37 > 0:24:41xenophobic, why is that? Because many in the Muslim community believe
0:24:42 > 0:24:44it is an attack on the group in particular. We want a mechanism
0:24:45 > 0:24:48whereby people can come to the state with concerns but when it is
0:24:49 > 0:24:52perceived by the Muslim community itself as being a toxic big brother
0:24:53 > 0:24:56brand, we need to look at it again and that is what the mayor of
0:24:57 > 0:25:01Manchester is saying, and many others have said. We need to review
0:25:02 > 0:25:07Prevent to make sure it is something that is seen as broad and inclusive
0:25:08 > 0:25:10and bottom-up. Let me put it to you that this is knee jerk liberalism
0:25:11 > 0:25:16and one of the very few Muslim MPs in the last Parliament Khaled Mahmud
0:25:17 > 0:25:21said, by and large the majority of the Muslim community have no real
0:25:22 > 0:25:26issue with Prevent. We seek small groups of so-called activists who
0:25:27 > 0:25:32continue to condemn Prevent but provide no real alternative, and
0:25:33 > 0:25:36he's talking about people like you. My opinion is guided by the Muslim
0:25:37 > 0:25:39community I speak to, it's about what is the most effective way of
0:25:40 > 0:25:42keeping people safe and when you have a programme that has lost
0:25:43 > 0:25:48credibility in vast areas of the Muslim society I think it means we
0:25:49 > 0:25:52should look at it again. It means making sure we have a mechanism that
0:25:53 > 0:25:56has the confidence of the communities so we can make sure we
0:25:57 > 0:26:00do our very best. In other circumstances we would be talking
0:26:01 > 0:26:06about wind farms and solar energy and the rest of it. And jobs and
0:26:07 > 0:26:08climate change. But this morning you will understand that is all we have
0:26:09 > 0:26:09time for. I don't normally think
0:26:10 > 0:26:13an awful lot about this bit. But since I learned this week
0:26:14 > 0:26:16there is an entire Twitter account devoted to me talking
0:26:17 > 0:26:18about the weather, called @sototheweather, I feel
0:26:19 > 0:26:19completely paralysed, I guess all I can say
0:26:20 > 0:26:23is that it's been very hot Darren Bett is in the
0:26:24 > 0:26:33BBC weather studio. Maybe I should start following you
0:26:34 > 0:26:37on Twitter. The weather has been fairly quiet so far with spells of
0:26:38 > 0:26:41sunshine around today but we are expecting some storms to return
0:26:42 > 0:26:45later from the south and it is areas like this in Minehead in Somerset
0:26:46 > 0:26:50that we will see the weather changing significantly later. Head
0:26:51 > 0:26:54of that, the cloud continuing to break up, most enjoying a fine day,
0:26:55 > 0:26:59but thickening cloud comes across the Channel bringing storms and
0:27:00 > 0:27:04heavy rain, maybe in the south-west and south Wales. It is nowhere near
0:27:05 > 0:27:10as hard as it has been recently in the north of Scotland. Some sunshine
0:27:11 > 0:27:13here, the storms continue to push northwards this evening, developing
0:27:14 > 0:27:19more widely. We are getting more widespread heavy rain and storms
0:27:20 > 0:27:24across England and Wales overnight. Light rain for Northern Ireland
0:27:25 > 0:27:27pushing into Scotland, and more comfortable night for sleeping. Much
0:27:28 > 0:27:32less comfortable in the humidity in the south after those storms. The
0:27:33 > 0:27:38storms rumbled the way northwards tomorrow morning, some rain making
0:27:39 > 0:27:45further inroads into Scotland. Clearing away from Northern Ireland,
0:27:46 > 0:27:51then into the south, warm and muggy air, but much cooler in Scotland.
0:27:52 > 0:27:53Andrew. I didn't sleep much last night, it
0:27:54 > 0:27:57is probably only too apparent. A lot of people who are only half
0:27:58 > 0:28:00paying attention to the election campaign more or less assume
0:28:01 > 0:28:03it was in the bag for the Tories. But now the polls have been closing
0:28:04 > 0:28:06a bit, they're having to focus for the first time of the real
0:28:07 > 0:28:09possibility of Jeremy Corbyn And that means, almost
0:28:10 > 0:28:16certainly that Diane Abbott A lot of people watching this
0:28:17 > 0:28:20programme after Manchester, thinking about who to vote for look at you
0:28:21 > 0:28:24and Jeremy Corbyn and think, we don't completely trust you to be in
0:28:25 > 0:28:27charge of the security of this country, given what you have said in
0:28:28 > 0:28:32the past, some of the things you have done in the past. You can take
0:28:33 > 0:28:38a moment to talk to them and tell them why they are wrong about you.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42It is too soon to forget the victims, 22 people dead, and so many
0:28:43 > 0:28:47families and children who have seen things which will haunt them for
0:28:48 > 0:28:53many years. We have talked a lot about the victims but quite right.
0:28:54 > 0:28:57In terms of why people should vote Labour in the forthcoming general
0:28:58 > 0:29:01election, they should vote Labour because we have put forward a
0:29:02 > 0:29:04manifesto which will be transforming manifesto which is talking about
0:29:05 > 0:29:09investment in the NHS and education and is also saying how we would fund
0:29:10 > 0:29:13it. And we will come onto that manifesto in some detail in the
0:29:14 > 0:29:18moment but first I want to ask you about your record, and people who
0:29:19 > 0:29:22don't trust you to be in charge of the Home Office. Firstly I think
0:29:23 > 0:29:27there is something to be said for Home Secretary who has actually
0:29:28 > 0:29:30worked in the Home Office. I worked in the Home Office for nearly three
0:29:31 > 0:29:35years is a graduate trainee and I know how it works from the inside. I
0:29:36 > 0:29:39think there is something to be said for Home Secretary who is a young
0:29:40 > 0:29:43woman who has worked and campaigned with diverse communities and sees
0:29:44 > 0:29:47these issues is not just from the point of view of bureaucrats but
0:29:48 > 0:29:50from the point of view of diverse communities, and there is something
0:29:51 > 0:29:59to be said for Home Secretary who has spent 30 years as a constituency
0:30:00 > 0:30:02MP and knows how these issues impact on normal people. What about Home
0:30:03 > 0:30:08Secretary who has in the past said we should abolish MI5. I think you
0:30:09 > 0:30:13have got that from some... Motion you signed calling for the abolition
0:30:14 > 0:30:16of conspiratorial groups like MI5 and special Branch, which are not
0:30:17 > 0:30:20accountable to the British people, signed by Diane Abbott.
0:30:21 > 0:30:29At that time I and a lot of people felt a MI5 needed reforming. It has
0:30:30 > 0:30:37since been reformed. I would not call for its abolition now. You pro
0:30:38 > 0:30:44MI5? No, that MI5 is gone. It has been reformed. That is why so many
0:30:45 > 0:30:49of us can support it now. Also in your career in the House of Commons,
0:30:50 > 0:30:53you voted around 30 times against anti-terror legislation for
0:30:54 > 0:30:56different reasons. What you have to remember is that on many of those
0:30:57 > 0:31:03occasions, I ended Jeremy Corbyn were going through the lobby with
0:31:04 > 0:31:07Tory MPs. Theresa May herself voted against the 2005 prevention of
0:31:08 > 0:31:12terrorism Bill. She voted against ID cards. And she voted against control
0:31:13 > 0:31:17orders without sufficient legal intervention. And my point is this.
0:31:18 > 0:31:23Nobody votes against these things without a lot of thought. And the
0:31:24 > 0:31:27view of myself and Jeremy and most members of the Conservative Party,
0:31:28 > 0:31:31including David Davis at the time, was this was counter-productive
0:31:32 > 0:31:36counterterror legislation. Some of the positions we voted for were
0:31:37 > 0:31:39upheld in the courts. Usain body votes against these kind of things
0:31:40 > 0:31:45without thought. Shortly before 9/11 you voted against prescribing
0:31:46 > 0:31:51al-Qaeda as a terror organisation. That was a huge mistake on your
0:31:52 > 0:31:57part, was not? Have you read the legislation? I have and I have
0:31:58 > 0:32:01looked at the addendums as well. There was a whole list of
0:32:02 > 0:32:03organisations, some of which some people would argue when the
0:32:04 > 0:32:11terrorist organisations but dissident organisations. -- were not
0:32:12 > 0:32:18terror organisations. Which once? I have got the list. Al-Qaeda,
0:32:19 > 0:32:24Egyptian Islamic jihad, the mujahideen, the liberation Tigers of
0:32:25 > 0:32:29Tamil, the Palestinian Islamic jihad group, the Abu Nadal organisation,
0:32:30 > 0:32:36the Kurdistan Workers Party... Which of these should not be prescribed?
0:32:37 > 0:32:38The title thing but the reality of some of those groups was that they
0:32:39 > 0:32:46were dissidents in their country of origin. Had they taken out Al-Qaeda
0:32:47 > 0:32:50as one thing, that would have been something. These are brutal,
0:32:51 > 0:32:56dangerous organisations from around the world, many of whom have killed
0:32:57 > 0:32:59a lot of people. The mum by attacks, which killed more than 170 people.
0:33:00 > 0:33:06That organisation was on the list. -- Mumbai. You voted against
0:33:07 > 0:33:10prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on that list I
0:33:11 > 0:33:13deemed to be dissidents rather than terror organisations. You have to
0:33:14 > 0:33:18give people credit for thinking about how they vote. We are hearing
0:33:19 > 0:33:22about all this anti-terror legislation that Jeremy and I voted
0:33:23 > 0:33:27against, but we're not hearing that the Tories voted against some the
0:33:28 > 0:33:31same legislation. Control orders and detention without trial. Which of
0:33:32 > 0:33:35these organisations do you think should not have been prescribed? You
0:33:36 > 0:33:39voted against the whole lot being prescribed because presumably some
0:33:40 > 0:33:43of you -- some of the new thought were OK. Which once? It is not that
0:33:44 > 0:33:49I thought they were OK. I thought they were dissident organisations. I
0:33:50 > 0:33:53don't need the list. At this point, less than a week after those people
0:33:54 > 0:33:59died in Manchester, we should be talking about how we go forward to
0:34:00 > 0:34:02make this country safe. Got to know how to go forward we have to look
0:34:03 > 0:34:09behind and look at people's records, which is why I have been talking
0:34:10 > 0:34:12about you. Jeremy Corbyn said he had not met the IRA and then he was
0:34:13 > 0:34:16photographed with lots of people from the IRA during his career. You
0:34:17 > 0:34:21yourself said a defeat for the British state would be a great
0:34:22 > 0:34:26liberation, a great move forward. Do you regret your support for the IRA
0:34:27 > 0:34:35back in the 80s? That particular quote comes from a now defunct
0:34:36 > 0:34:39left-wing newspaper. You said it. It was 34 years ago. I had a rather
0:34:40 > 0:34:46splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same hairstyle. I don't
0:34:47 > 0:34:53have the same views. It was 34 years ago. The hairstyle is gone and some
0:34:54 > 0:34:58of the views have gone. You regret what you said about the IRA? The
0:34:59 > 0:35:04hairstyle has gone, the views have gone. We have all moved on in 34
0:35:05 > 0:35:09years. Haven't you, Andrew? Do you regret what he said about the IRA at
0:35:10 > 0:35:16the height of the bombing? What specifically do you want me to
0:35:17 > 0:35:20regret? Basically what you said was that a defeat of the IRA would be
0:35:21 > 0:35:24devastating for the British people and defeat for the British state was
0:35:25 > 0:35:28a thing. You said the reason for the violence was entirely caused by the
0:35:29 > 0:35:32British presence in Northern Ireland. Do you think those
0:35:33 > 0:35:39statements are wrong? It is 34 years ago. I've moved on. You said Aaron
0:35:40 > 0:35:45end is our struggle. Every defeat of the British state is a victory for
0:35:46 > 0:35:50all of us. 34 years ago and I have moved on. Within a few weeks you
0:35:51 > 0:35:55could be Home Secretary. We know from Amber Road that she spends two
0:35:56 > 0:35:59hours a day signing orders approving the surveillance of individual
0:36:00 > 0:36:06people. Would you put -- be prepared to sit there and do that? Of course,
0:36:07 > 0:36:10if the evidence was presented. I was -- I worked at the Home Office, I
0:36:11 > 0:36:14know how these things work. Of course I would. It is part of the
0:36:15 > 0:36:20job. Let's turn to another big issue, encrypted services on
0:36:21 > 0:36:27WhatsApp and other mobile messaging devices. Do you oppose or support
0:36:28 > 0:36:31forcing those companies to reveal what they do? The problem with a lot
0:36:32 > 0:36:34of these companies is they are American companies and they feel
0:36:35 > 0:36:39very strongly about the rights to free speech. But we do have to work
0:36:40 > 0:36:44with them to allow us to access some of these messages. There is an issue
0:36:45 > 0:36:48about encryption. We have to work with them. If they are not willing
0:36:49 > 0:36:52to cooperate, we have to consider what further action we can take. I
0:36:53 > 0:36:55would hope given the tragedy in Manchester that these companies
0:36:56 > 0:37:00would want to work with the British government. Let's turn to something
0:37:01 > 0:37:06else, again reported today in the papers. As recently as 2010 you told
0:37:07 > 0:37:10a dinner party we should not put people's DNA on the database, and we
0:37:11 > 0:37:14should not have guilty people on the database either. You still support
0:37:15 > 0:37:18that statement as someone who could be Home Secretary? What you have to
0:37:19 > 0:37:22remember is I am also a constituency MP and I have had to deal with
0:37:23 > 0:37:27difficult cases of children not actually convicted of anything, who
0:37:28 > 0:37:30had their DNA on the database. I had a huge struggle to get their DNA
0:37:31 > 0:37:37taken off. Yes, we do need to be careful about taking children's DNA.
0:37:38 > 0:37:43You didn't use the word children there. Yes, because I don't know
0:37:44 > 0:37:47where that story comes from. What was in my mind was a case at the
0:37:48 > 0:37:53time about a child whose DNA had been taken. In terms of retaining a
0:37:54 > 0:37:57strong DNA national database, IU in favour or against? I'm in favour of
0:37:58 > 0:38:03a DNA database. And not in favour of keeping the DNA of children who have
0:38:04 > 0:38:08committed no crime. Anybody else, their DNA should be kept? Yes, of
0:38:09 > 0:38:14course. One of your big announcements has been lots more
0:38:15 > 0:38:18officers, including another thousand people for the security services.
0:38:19 > 0:38:21They are already increasing by a thousand after David Cameron's
0:38:22 > 0:38:28government. Is this another thousand beyond that? No, that thousand
0:38:29 > 0:38:32hasn't been recruited. They say they are doing it at the moment but they
0:38:33 > 0:38:36have not recruited them yet. We want to recruit 10,000 extra police
0:38:37 > 0:38:44officers, community police officers. We think community policing is key.
0:38:45 > 0:38:49We want to recruit 3000 extra firefighters, 3000 extra prison
0:38:50 > 0:38:54officers, a thousand, as you say, people in the security field, and
0:38:55 > 0:38:59500 more border guards, because we think protecting the border is so
0:39:00 > 0:39:05important. How much extra you going to bent on MI5? On MI5 we are not
0:39:06 > 0:39:11spending extra because the government has put the money aside.
0:39:12 > 0:39:19This is not a new announcement? It is part of our committee safety
0:39:20 > 0:39:23pledge card. And altogether we are talking about 10,000 extra police
0:39:24 > 0:39:29officers. The reason we have had to promise 10,000 extra police officers
0:39:30 > 0:39:34is that on Theresa May's watch, they had 20,000 police officers down. The
0:39:35 > 0:39:38cost of the entire package, which is 10,000 extra police officers, 3000
0:39:39 > 0:39:48firefighters, a thousand security people and 500 border guards, will
0:39:49 > 0:39:53be 417. In the labour manifesto it says freedom group and will end when
0:39:54 > 0:39:57we leave the European Union. -- Labour. Our human support of that
0:39:58 > 0:40:04policy? Freedom of movement obviously an swami leave the EU. We
0:40:05 > 0:40:14only have freedom of movement in the EU. What we should be talking about
0:40:15 > 0:40:18is the immigration legislation we have won freedom of movement ends.
0:40:19 > 0:40:25It is just that you have said ending free movement has become a synonym
0:40:26 > 0:40:29for anti-immigrant racism. Which suggests the Labour Party manifesto
0:40:30 > 0:40:34has got lots of anti-immigrant races in it. I don't think you are reading
0:40:35 > 0:40:42a manifesto properly. Of course, anti-immigrant racism is toxic. We
0:40:43 > 0:40:47are seeing the numbers of EU migrants going down at a time when
0:40:48 > 0:40:53we are 24,000 nurses short. Anti-immigrant rhetoric is
0:40:54 > 0:40:59unpleasant and bad for the economy. On freedom of movement, it ends when
0:41:00 > 0:41:04we come out of the EU. If you become home Secretary, you will be the
0:41:05 > 0:41:08first black person in any one of the major offices of state. Would you
0:41:09 > 0:41:12run the Home Office differently in terms of its attitudes to racism,
0:41:13 > 0:41:19communities etc? Would we notice a step change? I would run the best
0:41:20 > 0:41:23Home Office I can. I will draw on my experience having worked there. I
0:41:24 > 0:41:28will draw on my experience as an MP at the grassroots. But I will have
0:41:29 > 0:41:33the best Home Office that I can run, which will draw on some of the Home
0:41:34 > 0:41:37Office's best traditions. And above all, we'll keep this country safe.
0:41:38 > 0:41:39Diane Abbott, thank you for talking to us.
0:41:40 > 0:41:42Now, coming up later this morning, Jo Coburn will have all the election
0:41:43 > 0:41:45campaign latest and will be talking to the Security Minister,
0:41:46 > 0:41:46Ben Wallace, and the Shadow Justice Secretary, Richard Burgon.
0:41:47 > 0:41:54That's the Sunday Politics at 11 here on BBC One.
0:41:55 > 0:42:00I'm joined by the current Home Secretary, Amber Road. A lot of
0:42:01 > 0:42:04people watching and remembering what has happened this week will think
0:42:05 > 0:42:09that after Manchester there has to be a different attitude to security
0:42:10 > 0:42:12in this country. Do you agree? I believe there is information we can
0:42:13 > 0:42:17gather and there are steps we can take to improve the security of this
0:42:18 > 0:42:21country. But be in no doubt, this is something this country has been
0:42:22 > 0:42:27prepared for. The threat level has been at severe now since 2014, which
0:42:28 > 0:42:34is that an attack is highly likely. We have invested in our intelligence
0:42:35 > 0:42:38services, counter-terrorism. There will be as many armed police by the
0:42:39 > 0:42:42end of this year as there has ever been. We are stepping that up all
0:42:43 > 0:42:47the time. This hasn't come out of the blue, very sadly. This is
0:42:48 > 0:42:50something we have prepared for. One other thing I would like to say is
0:42:51 > 0:42:55that the reason why the handling of this terrible atrocity was done so
0:42:56 > 0:43:00well in Manchester by the emergency services, which I would like to
0:43:01 > 0:43:04thank, and by everybody involved, by the people who volunteered, is
0:43:05 > 0:43:09because we had rehearsed for it. Before we get onto the main bit the
0:43:10 > 0:43:14interview, you have downgraded the threat level one point. We hear that
0:43:15 > 0:43:17a large part of the group around these terrorists have been
0:43:18 > 0:43:22apprehended and taken. Does that mean some of the group is still out
0:43:23 > 0:43:29there? Potentially. It is an ongoing operation. There are 11 people in
0:43:30 > 0:43:33custody. The operation is really at full tilt in a way. Until the
0:43:34 > 0:43:38operation is complete, we can't be entirely sure it is closed. The
0:43:39 > 0:43:42security services do a great job and all the rest of it. But there are
0:43:43 > 0:43:44questions that must be asked. Can I ask how many times the security
0:43:45 > 0:43:51services were tipped off about Salman Abedi? It is not for me to be
0:43:52 > 0:43:56drawn in about what the intelligence services did or did not know,
0:43:57 > 0:44:01particularly at this stage. We do know some stuff. We do. It is an
0:44:02 > 0:44:06ongoing investigation. You have asked about other people who are
0:44:07 > 0:44:09going to be potentially pursued. That is between the intelligence
0:44:10 > 0:44:13services and counter-terrorism policing. People will want to look
0:44:14 > 0:44:20afterwards to see if we could have done it better. Can I also point out
0:44:21 > 0:44:24that since 2013, they have foiled 18 separate plots. They do a good job.
0:44:25 > 0:44:29We are not frightened of learning lessons and improving. I don't want
0:44:30 > 0:44:33to diminish what they do. What we do know is that Salman Abedi was
0:44:34 > 0:44:40identified as a dangerous man by friends and family, his community
0:44:41 > 0:44:45doing exactly what we asked them to do. They phoned the terror hotline.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48We know that the imam in his local mosque used the prevent strategy to
0:44:49 > 0:44:53get in touch and say this guy is out of control, he is dangerous, and
0:44:54 > 0:45:00apparently nothing happened. Was Salman Abedi under surveillance? I
0:45:01 > 0:45:03don't know those details. The intelligence services are still
0:45:04 > 0:45:06collecting information about him and the people around him. I would not
0:45:07 > 0:45:12rush to conclusions as you seem to be, that they have somehow missed
0:45:13 > 0:45:16something. People have found the terror hotline. As they should do.
0:45:17 > 0:45:19The reason we have put it in place, the reason we have put in place the
0:45:20 > 0:45:24Prevent strategy is because we recognise the scale of the problem.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29What this reminds us is the scale of the problem that we have. The enemy
0:45:30 > 0:45:33that we have, Daesh, that is trying to weaponised the young people in
0:45:34 > 0:45:36our society. We have put in place measures to make sure we can protect
0:45:37 > 0:45:40ourselves but we have been at severe for a number of years, an attack is
0:45:41 > 0:45:44highly likely. We will look to see what else we can do, which is why
0:45:45 > 0:45:47the Prime Minister has announced in the manifesto before this event
0:45:48 > 0:45:51there would be a commission for extremism, to see what else we can
0:45:52 > 0:45:55do to root out extremism, to put legislation in place if we need to,
0:45:56 > 0:45:56to make sure we take action to stop extremism taking root in our
0:45:57 > 0:46:05society. The manifesto now effectively reads
0:46:06 > 0:46:10like a pre-Manchester manifesto, there was lots of talk of pushing
0:46:11 > 0:46:14things forward, doesn't necessarily have the urgency that a lot of
0:46:15 > 0:46:18people feel is necessary after the Manchester attack. This Government
0:46:19 > 0:46:22has always felt that urgency, that's why we have been putting additional
0:46:23 > 0:46:26money and additional resources... And to significant the commission
0:46:27 > 0:46:32for extremism was put in before Manchester. We recognise the scale
0:46:33 > 0:46:38of the threat. Across the country how many serious potential jihadism
0:46:39 > 0:46:44are we worried about? The MI5 are looking at 500 different plots, 3000
0:46:45 > 0:46:49on a sort of top list, then 20,000 underneath that, but that is
0:46:50 > 0:46:55different layers. It might be a question over one of them or
0:46:56 > 0:46:59something serious. I suppose I'm wondering, the question over whether
0:47:00 > 0:47:03Abedi was red flagged maybe because there are so many plots, so many
0:47:04 > 0:47:08people they have to look at. One thing you could decide to do after
0:47:09 > 0:47:13Manchester is a step change in the size of MI5. You could double it and
0:47:14 > 0:47:17spend money that is being spent on Trident into this, have you
0:47:18 > 0:47:22considered that? We won't shy away from finding out what else we can do
0:47:23 > 0:47:29to keep people safe. The budget has already gone up significantly, we
0:47:30 > 0:47:34are recruiting 1900 people for MI5, but we will look at this. If there
0:47:35 > 0:47:39is a need for more recruitment or more security and armed vehicles, we
0:47:40 > 0:47:42will do that. If you win this general election and go back to the
0:47:43 > 0:47:46Home Office, will it be business as usual with the Prime Minister and
0:47:47 > 0:48:00the Chancellor when it comes to budgets, or will you ask for a
0:48:01 > 0:48:05bigger budget? From 2015 to now we have increased the budget 15
0:48:06 > 0:48:10million. We spoke during the paper review about where Abedi had been,
0:48:11 > 0:48:14we know he has been to Libya and we think to Syria, how many charities
0:48:15 > 0:48:19have come back to this country from Syria? We don't know the exact
0:48:20 > 0:48:22number but in engaging with the intelligence services we make sure
0:48:23 > 0:48:26they have the tools to track them and keep them out where we can. Is
0:48:27 > 0:48:33it possible to tell where someone has been, when they come into
0:48:34 > 0:48:39Heathrow? How can we possibly know if they have been to Syria? It is
0:48:40 > 0:48:41intelligence-led, and we have very good intelligence services who
0:48:42 > 0:48:46collect that information to make sure we follow and track the right
0:48:47 > 0:48:48people who might be dangerous. Because the Government has
0:48:49 > 0:48:54introduced temporary exclusion orders, how many of those have been
0:48:55 > 0:49:01used? I'm not going to give you the exact number but we have started to
0:49:02 > 0:49:08use them. It was zero. It was, it is no longer zero. It is part of the
0:49:09 > 0:49:12toolkit we have to keep people safe. You have an entire strategy in place
0:49:13 > 0:49:19for trying to pick people up and identify them, but you got rid of
0:49:20 > 0:49:21Labour's control orders. Under the Labour government control orders
0:49:22 > 0:49:27were highly controversial but they seem to be effective and they were
0:49:28 > 0:49:30often very well used. They included curfews and electronic tagging. If
0:49:31 > 0:49:34Abedi had been subject to that, he would not have been able to commit
0:49:35 > 0:49:41the Manchester atrocity. The security services and the police
0:49:42 > 0:49:49have what they need, we don't have control orders, we have TPIMs. We
0:49:50 > 0:49:53make sure we have the right tools they need. They have the ability to
0:49:54 > 0:50:02come to me as Home Secretary and for me to sign off TPIMs, we will do
0:50:03 > 0:50:05that where we need to. So they are terrorism prevention and
0:50:06 > 0:50:10investigation measures, and can include a form of house arrest. You
0:50:11 > 0:50:14have used them only six or seven times so far. Slightly more than
0:50:15 > 0:50:18that but I cannot give the exact number because it is a quarterly
0:50:19 > 0:50:23reporting method. It is for me to say to the intelligence services,
0:50:24 > 0:50:27who will keep us says, tell me how many you need and we will take them
0:50:28 > 0:50:31forward. The reason I ask is because Lord Carlile, a former independent
0:50:32 > 0:50:35reviewer of terror legislation, said it was a grave mistake by the
0:50:36 > 0:50:40coalition governments to remove control orders and produce something
0:50:41 > 0:50:43that he called more dilute. I think that quote may be out of date
0:50:44 > 0:50:47because Mr Anderson who was the reviewer subsequent to him said they
0:50:48 > 0:50:52represent the mature evolution following control orders, and Max
0:50:53 > 0:50:56Hill just today, the reviewer for terrorist legislation, has said
0:50:57 > 0:50:59there is no more legislation needed currently so we are constantly alert
0:51:00 > 0:51:04and we won't shy away from introducing new legislation when it
0:51:05 > 0:51:08is needed. The last time we spoke after another terrible terrorist
0:51:09 > 0:51:11attack in London, we had a discussion about end to end
0:51:12 > 0:51:16encryption and there's a lot of comments afterwards about what was
0:51:17 > 0:51:20possible and not possible. What is your proposal now? We are making
0:51:21 > 0:51:25good progress with the companies that have put in place end to end
0:51:26 > 0:51:29encryption. Some have been more obstructive than others but we
0:51:30 > 0:51:33continue to build on that. I am concerned about internet companies
0:51:34 > 0:51:37who continue to publish hate material that is contributing to
0:51:38 > 0:51:40radicalising people in this country. I also spoke about setting up an
0:51:41 > 0:51:44internet forum which we did in the UK and now the Prime Minister has
0:51:45 > 0:51:49announced this week that she has agreed to do an international forum
0:51:50 > 0:51:52so we are continuing to build on better relations with the internet,
0:51:53 > 0:51:58and ask them to make those changes so people don't get radicalised. The
0:51:59 > 0:52:03problem with end to end encryption is the technology to achieve that,
0:52:04 > 0:52:07the software is out there freely available all over the internet. You
0:52:08 > 0:52:16can make your own soap if a terrorist is using Whatsapp for
0:52:17 > 0:52:20instance, they can make their own messaging service, and another, and
0:52:21 > 0:52:25another, they can build their own. The only way you can stop this is by
0:52:26 > 0:52:32banning end to end encryption completely. We are challenging the
0:52:33 > 0:52:36people who are delivering and to end encryption so we can keep people
0:52:37 > 0:52:39safe. Nobody wants terrorists to have a safe place to exchange
0:52:40 > 0:52:44information and plot terrible atrocities. I believe we can get
0:52:45 > 0:52:49them to be more successful in working with us. But banning end to
0:52:50 > 0:52:54end encryption completely would destroy the internet as a
0:52:55 > 0:52:57marketplace for people doing the banking, it would totally devastate
0:52:58 > 0:53:00the internet economy in this country. Do you understand why
0:53:01 > 0:53:05people were so shocked when he suggested that's what you wanted to
0:53:06 > 0:53:08do? I never did suggest it because I have always said the internet
0:53:09 > 0:53:13provides an incredibly important place for people to do business. But
0:53:14 > 0:53:17we need to do better to stop terrorists being able to use it. In
0:53:18 > 0:53:20your interview today in the mail on Sunday you were asked whether
0:53:21 > 0:53:26electing a Labour government would result in more people being killed
0:53:27 > 0:53:30by terrorists and you said yes, do you really stand by that? The
0:53:31 > 0:53:33evidence is Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott and John McDonnell have a
0:53:34 > 0:53:39history of not supporting terrorist legislation. Jeremy Corbyn has in
0:53:40 > 0:53:45fact boasted he opposed all counterterrorist legislation. Diane
0:53:46 > 0:53:48Abbott gave quite a good account then of terrorist legislation which
0:53:49 > 0:53:53was counter-productive and badly thought through. In those cases
0:53:54 > 0:54:01opposing it is the right thing to do. I thought she gave a poor
0:54:02 > 0:54:07recount, we have banned a far right group, National Action. I have
0:54:08 > 0:54:11changed my hairstyle a few times in 34 years as well but I have not
0:54:12 > 0:54:16changed my view about how we keep the British public safe. Let's turn
0:54:17 > 0:54:19to the embarrassing U-turn over social care. Damian Green sitting in
0:54:20 > 0:54:25that chair, I asked him if he would look again at this policy, he looked
0:54:26 > 0:54:29at me and then said no, then the next day you changed the policy
0:54:30 > 0:54:35radically. You produced a cap when there was going to be no cap. Is it
0:54:36 > 0:54:39not taking the British people for full to say there hasn't been a
0:54:40 > 0:54:43U-turn? I think we have been frank about it, we have levelled with
0:54:44 > 0:54:47people. The Conservative Party is very frank about these things,
0:54:48 > 0:54:52unlike the Labour Party. We have put the most important element of that
0:54:53 > 0:54:56policy that we are protecting ?100,000 of people's assets the
0:54:57 > 0:55:00house and making sure they don't have to move from the house if they
0:55:01 > 0:55:06are using the equity from it if they are either at home using social care
0:55:07 > 0:55:10or elsewhere. You said as a government there wouldn't be a cap.
0:55:11 > 0:55:15Jeremy Hunt went on the radio and said we are getting rid of the cap,
0:55:16 > 0:55:21there will be no cap. Is there going to be a cap? The Prime Minister has
0:55:22 > 0:55:25yes, but we are not sure where it will be. We will have a Green paper
0:55:26 > 0:55:31to make sure we set it at the right level. So it could be 200,000,
0:55:32 > 0:55:36300,000. The people worried about this policy should still be worried
0:55:37 > 0:55:39until they know where the cap is. What people should realise is that
0:55:40 > 0:55:43we know people are living longer. The next decade there will be
0:55:44 > 0:55:48another 2 million people over 75, which is great news, but we have to
0:55:49 > 0:55:52be frank this will cost money. We have to find a way that is fair for
0:55:53 > 0:55:55people to pay for it. This is the best way to do it. Thank you very
0:55:56 > 0:55:57much indeed. Now a look at what's coming up
0:55:58 > 0:56:05straight after this programme. At ten o'clock we will be debating
0:56:06 > 0:56:12privatisation in the health service, and racism against white people - is
0:56:13 > 0:56:14there such a thing? Lastly, did we evolve to become moral beings or did
0:56:15 > 0:56:19we need religion to tame us? Last Monday's attack reminded us
0:56:20 > 0:56:21all of the Manchester spirit. On 1 June at the Bridgewater Hall,
0:56:22 > 0:56:24a concert featuring all of the city's orchestras will be
0:56:25 > 0:56:27held in support of the victims We leave you now with musicians
0:56:28 > 0:56:30from the Manchester Camerata and the Happy Mondays star,
0:56:31 > 0:56:32Rowetta. Here they are with a Hacienda club
0:56:33 > 0:56:57classic, 'You've Got The Love'. # Sometimes I feel like throwing
0:56:58 > 0:57:01my hands up in the air # Sometimes I feel like saying
0:57:02 > 0:57:10"Lord I just don't care" # Sometimes it seems
0:57:11 > 0:57:20the going is just too rough # And things go wrong
0:57:21 > 0:57:25no matter what I do # Now and then it seems that
0:57:26 > 0:57:29life is just too much # When food is gone
0:57:30 > 0:57:45you are my daily meal # When friends are gone
0:57:46 > 0:57:49I know my savior's love is real # You've got the love,
0:57:50 > 0:58:03you've got the love # You've got the love,
0:58:04 > 0:58:15you've got the love # Sometimes I feel like throwing
0:58:16 > 0:58:18my hands up in the air # Sometimes I feel like saying
0:58:19 > 0:58:26"Lord I just don't care" # It gets so rough sometimes
0:58:27 > 0:58:53# The going gets so hard # You've got the love,
0:58:54 > 0:59:00you've got the love # You've got the love,
0:59:01 > 0:59:06you've got the love