0:00:03 > 0:00:06Good morning.
0:00:06 > 0:00:13The Harvey Weinstein story seems to be changing something quite
0:00:13 > 0:00:15profound in our culture, as stories of sexual abuse
0:00:15 > 0:00:17spill out from Hollywood, the theatre, the media,
0:00:17 > 0:00:20including the BBC, and now, this week, Westminster as well.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22Jeremy Corbyn said yesterday that this is a turning point.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26Is it?
0:00:40 > 0:00:47Diane Abbott, the shadow Home Secretary, has had
0:00:47 > 0:00:4930 years of experience of the Westminster culture.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51Mr Corbyn said something needs to change - so, what?
0:00:51 > 0:00:54But there's another huge national issue we're looking at today.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56Theresa May writes this morning about her new
0:00:56 > 0:00:59crusade on mental health.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01The Government is promising action, but what's the actual Tory
0:01:01 > 0:01:03record on mental health?
0:01:03 > 0:01:12I'll be asking the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt.
0:01:12 > 0:01:17With the Catalan crisis still dominating today's news,
0:01:17 > 0:01:20I'm going to be looking at some of its origins and the unsettling
0:01:20 > 0:01:23historical parallels with a leading historian of the Spanish civil war,
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Antony Beevor.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Playing us out this morning, a Grammy Award-winning
0:01:27 > 0:01:37country star, Jason Isbell.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45# Knowing that this can't go on forever.
0:01:45 > 0:01:50# Likely one of us will have to spend some days alone.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52Reviewing the news, the Corbyn-supporting Guardian
0:01:52 > 0:01:54columnist Owen Jones, and the author and commentator
0:01:54 > 0:01:55Isabel Oakeshott.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57All that coming up after the news, read this morning
0:01:57 > 0:01:58by Christian Fraser.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Supporters of a united Spain are expected to gather in Barcelona
0:02:01 > 0:02:02today amid rising tension over Catalonia's declaration
0:02:02 > 0:02:05of independence, which has plunged the country into a political crisis.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07The Spanish government has sacked the region's leader,
0:02:07 > 0:02:11Carles Puigdemont, and imposed direct rule from Madrid.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13Mr Puigdemont has responded with a call for "democratic
0:02:13 > 0:02:14opposition" from all Catalans.
0:02:14 > 0:02:21Gavin Lee is in Barcelona for us this morning.
0:02:21 > 0:02:27What is the latest? These are the days of alternate
0:02:27 > 0:02:32demonstrations. We had on Friday in credible scenes of celebration,
0:02:32 > 0:02:36families, pensioners, children brought to the street wrapped in the
0:02:36 > 0:02:40flag of independence. To date on it is the turn of Catalans who want
0:02:40 > 0:02:44unity who will be wearing their flag, we have seen them crossing
0:02:44 > 0:02:48behind me as they gather in the main square, we expect over 100,000
0:02:48 > 0:02:53people here today. Both sides asking pretty much the same question, how
0:02:53 > 0:02:58will, or will indeed, the Spanish Government force out the man who is
0:02:58 > 0:03:00technically no longer president, Carles Puigdemont, but who will not
0:03:00 > 0:03:12go? He spoke yesterday
0:03:24 > 0:03:26about democratic and resisting what will happen if him, along with 140
0:03:26 > 0:03:29officials, are moved out. I think today we will see movement on the
0:03:29 > 0:03:31streets, the battle of the flags. Tomorrow potentially the flash point
0:03:31 > 0:03:33in the government office, does Carles Puigdemont try to go to work?
0:03:33 > 0:03:35It so, what does the Spanish Government do about it?
0:03:35 > 0:03:37Heathrow Airport says it is investigating how details
0:03:37 > 0:03:39of its security procedures were found lying in
0:03:39 > 0:03:40the street in west London.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43The Sunday Mirror says the information was on a memory
0:03:43 > 0:03:44stick, and had not been encrypted.
0:03:44 > 0:03:46It contained information concerning the Queen,
0:03:46 > 0:03:49as well as maps showing CCTV cameras and a network of tunnels
0:03:49 > 0:03:51and escape shafts, linked to the Heathrow Express train line.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54Parents will no longer be able to use a legal loophole to avoid
0:03:54 > 0:03:56paying child maintenance, under new rules to be
0:03:56 > 0:03:58introduced within months.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01The Department for Work and Pensions says it hope the changes will lead
0:04:01 > 0:04:03to hundreds of thousands of pounds in additional child
0:04:03 > 0:04:04maintenance being collected
0:04:04 > 0:04:07The First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, is to apologise
0:04:07 > 0:04:09on behalf of her Government to all men convicted of sexual
0:04:09 > 0:04:12offences which involved other men and have since been abolished.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14She'll make her statement next week when the Scottish Government sets
0:04:14 > 0:04:16out new legislation to grant automatic pardons
0:04:16 > 0:04:19to those affected.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23That's all from me.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26The next news on BBC One is at 1pm.
0:04:26 > 0:04:27Back to you, Andrew.
0:04:27 > 0:04:28Thank you.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30Now to the papers.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33No single story dominating today, the Sunday Times has a story about
0:04:33 > 0:04:38prisoners getting the vote in a change of human rights legislation,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42and the sex pest story, they focus on BBCi women, Michelle Hussain
0:04:42 > 0:04:46wakes up to find itself on the front page of The Times and has tweeted
0:04:46 > 0:04:50this story is not accurate so far as it concerns her. The Sunday
0:04:50 > 0:04:54Telegraph has a story about hospitals failing to tackle a safety
0:04:54 > 0:04:58crisis, the Observer has gone for Brexit, the only paper to do that
0:04:58 > 0:05:08today. Theresa May has warned the UK to be ready for no deal. Spain on a
0:05:08 > 0:05:12knife edge, a genuinely dangerous situation, and the Mail On Sunday
0:05:12 > 0:05:19has gone for the Westminster sex story. Westminster sent -- minister
0:05:19 > 0:05:24said his PA to buy sex toys, not too much gory detail, so don't panic.
0:05:24 > 0:05:31Owen Jones, let's carry on with that story, inside the Sunday Times, a
0:05:31 > 0:05:34big piece about what is going on in Westminster.I think this is
0:05:34 > 0:05:39potentially very scandalous, reports of two senior Cabinet ministers
0:05:39 > 0:05:49named by female researchers as being "sex pests", the Prime Minister
0:05:49 > 0:05:53being updated on this but the whips, and this is serious, treating it
0:05:53 > 0:05:58apparently as a bit of a laugh. A joke yesterday about Harvey
0:05:58 > 0:06:01Weinstein and the sexual abuse and rape of women. I think a number of
0:06:01 > 0:06:05things have to happen here, firstly women need to be encouraged to be
0:06:05 > 0:06:08able to come forward and be supported and believed, action needs
0:06:08 > 0:06:13to be taken about these Cabinet ministers, but a critical question
0:06:13 > 0:06:16is, is Theresa May herself involved in a cover-up of sexual harassment
0:06:16 > 0:06:20and abuse by her own ministers?That has to be made abundantly clear. You
0:06:20 > 0:06:24put all of this on the Conservatives but there are stories about the
0:06:24 > 0:06:31Labour Party as well.Absolutely, 1.4 million women face domestic
0:06:31 > 0:06:34violence EJ, 400,000 sexually assaulted, 90,000 raped, the vast
0:06:34 > 0:06:38majority of cases have no justice, whether it be the Labour Party or
0:06:38 > 0:06:42Conservative Party, any party, any institution, women need to be
0:06:42 > 0:06:46supported and believed. The issue here is about this briefing where
0:06:46 > 0:06:50whips apparently are treating it as a joke and Theresa May is not taking
0:06:50 > 0:06:56action.I think a lot of people watching, Isabel Oakeshott, will be
0:06:56 > 0:07:01asking the question, how serious is this? Some suggest Theresa May could
0:07:01 > 0:07:04lose three ministers over this and be forced into a cabinet reshuffle.
0:07:04 > 0:07:09We need to keep a perspective on this, the way Westminster is
0:07:09 > 0:07:13depicted in the papers today, you imagine corridors full of marauding
0:07:13 > 0:07:19sex pest, the whole place like a Berlin sex dungeon. I have worked at
0:07:19 > 0:07:24Westminster for over a decade, I simply do not recognise the way that
0:07:24 > 0:07:28the corridors of power are being portrayed here. Of course there are
0:07:28 > 0:07:32a few bad elements, I'm sure we have all come across them, but I think
0:07:32 > 0:07:35the reporting of this is rather hysterical and I do actually
0:07:35 > 0:07:40disagree with you, Owen, about the comments by Michael Gove. Yes they
0:07:40 > 0:07:44were tasteless, but for everybody to be so outraged over what was a
0:07:44 > 0:07:48rather clumsy comment, I just think there are so many more things to be
0:07:48 > 0:07:54outraged about.Obviously you can talk about a hierarchy of outrage,
0:07:54 > 0:07:56there are many other things you could go on forever with that logic,
0:07:56 > 0:08:00but the issue is many girls and women, and I know many myself, do
0:08:00 > 0:08:04not feel able to come forward, do not feel bullied, and when a Cabinet
0:08:04 > 0:08:09minister makes a joke about sexual harassment, abuse and rape, in the
0:08:09 > 0:08:13case of Harvey Weinstein, it makes it harder for people to come forward
0:08:13 > 0:08:20and it encourages a culture amongst men, and men need to take
0:08:20 > 0:08:23responsibility to treat sexual abuse and harassment as a bit of a joke, a
0:08:23 > 0:08:27bit of a laugh, lighten up everyone, that is an issue that we have do
0:08:27 > 0:08:30address.I don't for a minute believe Theresa May or her whips
0:08:30 > 0:08:35will be taking this as a bit of a laugh.That is what the Sunday Times
0:08:35 > 0:08:38suggests.If there is a possibility of Cabinet ministers losing their
0:08:38 > 0:08:42jobs, that is not a laughing situation.You have been inside this
0:08:42 > 0:08:48culture for a long time, as had the Sunday Times' deputy editor, she has
0:08:48 > 0:08:51written a piece.Sarah Baxter has written a piece in which she points
0:08:51 > 0:08:57out that, she is sort of slightly coming at it from the same angle as
0:08:57 > 0:09:02I am, saying there is a world of difference between a rape allegation
0:09:02 > 0:09:06or a really serious assault allegation and the kind of rather
0:09:06 > 0:09:12clumsy flirting, rather rubbish, s that I think a lot of people are
0:09:12 > 0:09:19talking about here. It is not pleasant but it was ever thus, there
0:09:19 > 0:09:22are 14,000 pass-holders at Westminster, show me any other
0:09:22 > 0:09:25workplace with that many people where there are not some people who
0:09:25 > 0:09:29make rather rubbish comments.Jeremy Corbyn made a powerful intervention
0:09:29 > 0:09:32yesterday when he called for victims, survivors of sexual
0:09:32 > 0:09:35harassment, abuse or worse, to come forward. You would yourself
0:09:35 > 0:09:39encourage women who have been sexually harassed or assaulted to
0:09:39 > 0:09:44come forward and put those allegations forward, surely?John
0:09:44 > 0:09:50Mann, in the House of Commons, has suggested there should be some kind
0:09:50 > 0:09:55of tsar whose job it is to receive allegations.There was some pushback
0:09:55 > 0:09:58on that, which says something slightly worrying. I think we should
0:09:58 > 0:10:05demand and expect a higher standard from our elected representatives.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Partly I'm saying, show me another workplace... Actually, MPs have to
0:10:09 > 0:10:14be better than other people.What does it say about our democratic
0:10:14 > 0:10:18culture that every time there is probably call for a tsar?The
0:10:18 > 0:10:22problem with the House of Commons is the nature of the employment,
0:10:22 > 0:10:25basically MPs are effectively self-employed, there is not a human
0:10:25 > 0:10:28resources Department, it is difficult to know who you go to,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32there is a trade union, Unite represents Parliamentary research
0:10:32 > 0:10:36is, but it is difficult for them to come forward and what MPs exploit in
0:10:36 > 0:10:39these cases is, this could be detrimental to your career if you
0:10:39 > 0:10:42come forward.I would like to move on to the other huge story, the
0:10:42 > 0:10:49Catalan crisis. You have an Observer story?Yes, a story about the
0:10:49 > 0:10:51massive polarisation of Catalan society, I think it is about 50-50
0:10:51 > 0:10:56at the moment being leaving, but the vast amount of responsibility for
0:10:56 > 0:11:00the situation lies with the Spanish government, there was reprimanded
0:11:00 > 0:11:06years ago Catalonia that enshrined them as a nation, gave the language
0:11:06 > 0:11:10special protected status, the ruling People's party stripped those away
0:11:10 > 0:11:13and, in attempt to deflect from corruption scandals in the game,
0:11:13 > 0:11:19they ratcheted up attacks on so-called separatists, and that has
0:11:19 > 0:11:24led to the attacks on the democratic norms in Catalonia and assaulting
0:11:24 > 0:11:31voters as we saw the other week. Your 50-50 statistic is interesting,
0:11:31 > 0:11:39I'm not sure where it comes from... From polls.Imagine the Scottish
0:11:39 > 0:11:42Government unilaterally declared independence on the basis of an
0:11:42 > 0:11:49unconstitutional vote which attracted a mere 43% turnout. That
0:11:49 > 0:11:53is nothing, we would be rightly outraged about this. The Spanish
0:11:53 > 0:11:57Government has spectacularly mishandled this, they have turned it
0:11:57 > 0:12:01into an unnecessary crisis.The differences, I did praise David
0:12:01 > 0:12:06Cameron very often, but the Government here allowed Scotland to
0:12:06 > 0:12:11have a referendum to democratically decided own future.And that defused
0:12:11 > 0:12:14the situation, Madrid has not handled this well.They refused to
0:12:14 > 0:12:18allow them... I don't support Catalan independence, as much as it
0:12:18 > 0:12:22matters, but they are being denied the right to determine their future.
0:12:22 > 0:12:27In Cuba and Scotland, they were allowed to decide.Part of the
0:12:27 > 0:12:30problem I think is the Spanish constitution, almost too clear on
0:12:30 > 0:12:37this, it has not given Mariano Rajoy much movement for manoeuvre.It was
0:12:37 > 0:12:42passed in the death of Franco and was done to stop Civil War kicking
0:12:42 > 0:12:46off, that is why it is a hard line. We don't have a huge amount of time,
0:12:46 > 0:12:49I want to move onto some other stories. An intriguing story in the
0:12:49 > 0:12:54Mail on Sunday, that Amber Rudd, on one wing of the party when it comes
0:12:54 > 0:12:57to Europe, Boris Johnson very much on another, have come to some kind
0:12:57 > 0:13:03of arrangement?This suggestion that Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary,
0:13:03 > 0:13:07whose star has very much risen in recent months, might team up with
0:13:07 > 0:13:11Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary whose star has somewhat fallen, to
0:13:11 > 0:13:16make a kind of dream team in the event of Theresa May falling on her
0:13:16 > 0:13:22sword, all being ousted.So before jumping in, Amber Rudd has been so
0:13:22 > 0:13:29rude about Boris Johnson in the past -- sorry for jumping in.Absolutely,
0:13:29 > 0:13:33she said she would not want to be in the same car as Boris at the end of
0:13:33 > 0:13:36a night out! I don't entirely buy into this, knowing the personalities
0:13:36 > 0:13:40and characters of both politicians. I think it would be a very
0:13:40 > 0:13:45attractive ticket for voters, but the problem is it would fall down
0:13:45 > 0:13:50almost instantly.It just wouldn't work?I don't think Amber Rudd would
0:13:50 > 0:13:55put up with Boris' nonsense for more than a few days, it might be another
0:13:55 > 0:13:58Michael Gove situation where she pulled the plug at the last minute.
0:13:58 > 0:14:03The fact he is Foreign Secretary is almost an international laughing
0:14:03 > 0:14:07stock, he has a history of bigoted remarks, his manoeuvring on Brexit
0:14:07 > 0:14:16was for his own political career. Onto the iPad with which you have
0:14:16 > 0:14:22been furnished...So, yes, this is Jeremy Corbyn yesterday marking 50
0:14:22 > 0:14:27years since abortion was decriminalised, he has continued to
0:14:27 > 0:14:29fight for women's rights to choose here and around the world. This
0:14:29 > 0:14:35point about giving women the right to choose, it is an act of terrible
0:14:35 > 0:14:38violence to force women to have children against their will. We know
0:14:38 > 0:14:41in countries where abortion is banned, women do not have the right
0:14:41 > 0:14:45to choose, there is still demand for abortion but it is unsafe and
0:14:45 > 0:14:48women's lives are put at risk and that is why safe abortion is so
0:14:48 > 0:14:52important.If it virtue signalling to say, we must remember this? There
0:14:52 > 0:14:58is not a proposal here?It was a landmark, he is talking about
0:14:58 > 0:15:01Labour's record, Labour have a good record of championing women's
0:15:01 > 0:15:05rights, that was a critical milestone, and there is a danger
0:15:05 > 0:15:09that in America and here culture warriors want to take away the right
0:15:09 > 0:15:11to choose...You talk about an act of terrible violence to force women
0:15:11 > 0:15:16to have babies they don't want, at act of terrible violence is a late
0:15:16 > 0:15:19abortion. They are obscene and a lot of people in this country feel
0:15:19 > 0:15:32really strongly about that. I think what is
0:15:35 > 0:15:37interesting about the whole 50 year anniversary thing is the extent to
0:15:37 > 0:15:39which science has come on, and medicine, in those 50 years, and our
0:15:39 > 0:15:41ability to save premature babies, neonatal care has improved
0:15:41 > 0:15:44dramatically so I would love to see a debate about reducing the time
0:15:44 > 0:15:46limit on abortion, but it is very difficult for politicians to do
0:15:46 > 0:15:49this.I will encourage you to pick up on another health story.An
0:15:49 > 0:15:54unusual one, Owen and ICI to write on this. Theresa May picking up on
0:15:54 > 0:15:58the pressure from voters over putting more resources into mental
0:15:58 > 0:16:04Health Services, a real problem here with the cash-strapped NHS, mental
0:16:04 > 0:16:08health Services so often don't get the resources they need.I hope you
0:16:08 > 0:16:12hammid Jeremy Hunt on his atrocious record as Health Secretary, the
0:16:12 > 0:16:16longest squeeze in NHS funding since its foundation and even though
0:16:16 > 0:16:20parity of esteem was promised for physical and mental health, cuts to
0:16:20 > 0:16:24Mental Health Services ended up 20% worse than for the rest of the NHS,
0:16:24 > 0:16:28people forced to wait months for treatment, often when they subside,
0:16:28 > 0:16:33bumped around the country, bed is not available, there is lots of good
0:16:33 > 0:16:40talk about mental health, and that is important, but the action is not
0:16:40 > 0:16:44there.I detect an intriguing considerable moment has not quite
0:16:44 > 0:16:48crystallised as expected! Thank you both very much.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50So we've just been talking about Catalonia.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53We all understand that this is now a confrontation between Madrid
0:16:53 > 0:16:54and the Northern separatists.
0:16:54 > 0:16:56But what can be difficult to remember is just why
0:16:56 > 0:16:57feelings run so deep.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00This goes back to the 1930s - many people will remember
0:17:00 > 0:17:01George Orwell's Homage To Catalonia.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03He was describing his time fighting for anarchists
0:17:03 > 0:17:10in the Spanish civil war.
0:17:10 > 0:17:16And I'm joined now by one of this country's prime historians
0:17:16 > 0:17:17of that war, Antony Beevor.
0:17:17 > 0:17:24Can we start off about why the Catalans feel separate?They did
0:17:24 > 0:17:29have their own country and empire back in medieval times and it was
0:17:29 > 0:17:35only really from 1716, after the war Spanish accession and the great
0:17:35 > 0:17:37siege of Barcelona, but they were fully brought under the control of
0:17:37 > 0:17:44Madrid. And it was the first ball going king, Philip V, who brought
0:17:44 > 0:17:49this to pass, and this is why they're very reluctant to accept the
0:17:49 > 0:17:55monarchy.So they were effectively invaded and grabbed. In modern
0:17:55 > 0:17:58times, of course, they were mostly on the Republican side in the
0:17:58 > 0:18:03Spanish civil war, and most people who go to Barcelona now think it is
0:18:03 > 0:18:07a very lovely, sun-kissed place that they should remember what it was
0:18:07 > 0:18:13like during the Spanish civil war, when it was the epicentre?Well, it
0:18:13 > 0:18:16was and Franco and his generals thought that they would win
0:18:16 > 0:18:21Barcelona easily. In fact the most desperate fighting took place in
0:18:21 > 0:18:25July 1936, when the general stride to take over, and they were defeated
0:18:25 > 0:18:32basically by the Alick -ists, but also by the semi Trotskyists who
0:18:32 > 0:18:45George Orwell was fighting with. Absolutely. So, a lot of fighting.
0:18:45 > 0:18:51And these divisions go deep into Catalan society to which side were
0:18:51 > 0:18:59weak on in the war? I should mention that in Madrid Mr Rajoy came from a
0:18:59 > 0:19:02pro-Franco family, for instance. Whereas Mr Puigdemont was on the
0:19:02 > 0:19:07other side, so these are still deep divisions in Catalonia?Well, they
0:19:07 > 0:19:13are deep throughout Spain, really. But for the Catalans, I think the
0:19:13 > 0:19:20most appalling crime of all was the way that the Gestapo handed over the
0:19:20 > 0:19:25president of the Generalitat to Franco and he was then exit you did
0:19:25 > 0:19:32in 1940.We think of fascist leaders as being 1940s characters, but
0:19:32 > 0:19:38actually in Spain it goes right up to the nineteen seventies. After he
0:19:38 > 0:19:51wins the civil war, Franco really represses Catalan autonomy?Yes, and
0:19:51 > 0:19:55for other regions as well. That's why it was important after the death
0:19:55 > 0:20:01of Franco in the constitution of 1978 for there to be a certain
0:20:01 > 0:20:08reassurance about the unity of Spain.Absolutely. And what are your
0:20:08 > 0:20:11reflections, you very, very well, on what is happening right now, and the
0:20:11 > 0:20:17agency with its the Catalans seem to be demanding independence?What one
0:20:17 > 0:20:21is seeing to a degree is that the urgency is prompted by the fact that
0:20:21 > 0:20:25they are losing support for independence. The latest poll shows
0:20:25 > 0:20:31that actually it is 55% against and only 41% or 42% in favour of
0:20:31 > 0:20:35independence. They know they're losing control and this is why there
0:20:35 > 0:20:38is much more of a push over recent days.I was reading another
0:20:38 > 0:20:43historian, I would say the name, suggesting in yesterday's papers
0:20:43 > 0:20:47that Spain might be on the brink of actual violence, the beginning of a
0:20:47 > 0:20:52Yugoslav-style break-up?I don't think so, I don't think we will see
0:20:52 > 0:21:02a Catalan version of Eta arising or anything like that. People say, are
0:21:02 > 0:21:08we facing another Spanish civil war? The conditions are totally separate.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12I think Spain is a very mature democracy and I think they probably
0:21:12 > 0:21:16handle things as best they can in the circumstances.And of course
0:21:16 > 0:21:19Catalonia is a very wealthy part of Spain, Abel have a lot to lose?In
0:21:19 > 0:21:25deed. The Northern League in Italy and other independence movements
0:21:25 > 0:21:28were much more interested in paying less taxes. I think on the whole
0:21:28 > 0:21:35many of the historical arguments tended to be used, if you like, as
0:21:35 > 0:21:37emotional support to basically what are quite self-centred reasons for
0:21:37 > 0:21:43independence.So we are in a kind of read the book, don't look at the
0:21:43 > 0:21:47crystal ball moment. What would you expect for the next few moves?I
0:21:47 > 0:21:51think we're going to see more or less a collapse, a split within the
0:21:51 > 0:22:00Catalan movement. The extreme activist side, which was already
0:22:00 > 0:22:06holding Mr Puigdemont a little bit hostage, I think that will be
0:22:06 > 0:22:10falling back and we will see a fragmentation. The very fact that
0:22:10 > 0:22:15you've got 55% supporting the central government and its call for
0:22:15 > 0:22:19elections means that I think we're going to see a calming of the
0:22:19 > 0:22:24situation, rather than a threat of another civil war, far from it.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28Thank you very much very much indeed for coming in. And so for the
0:22:28 > 0:22:35weather. I'm delighted to say, it is about to get a bit colder. About
0:22:35 > 0:22:39time! Over to Louise Lear. Well, it is only
0:22:39 > 0:22:42time! Over to Louise Lear. Well, it is only going to be a brief short,
0:22:42 > 0:22:48sharp shock, but, yes. Temperatures have been 8 degrees down on where
0:22:48 > 0:22:52they were yesterday in Scotland. A different story further south and
0:22:52 > 0:22:59west, though. This has been sitting across Wales and the Midlands, East
0:22:59 > 0:23:02Anglia and the south-east of England so far this morning, this weather
0:23:02 > 0:23:08front. And behind it, some colder air coming down from the Arctic. You
0:23:08 > 0:23:11will notice that the cold air never really gets down into the extreme
0:23:11 > 0:23:16south-west today. But we will see the cloud breaking up and sunny
0:23:16 > 0:23:21spells coming through. Generally speaking, it's a quiet day. The
0:23:21 > 0:23:26northerly wind is driving in showers along the North Sea coast driver.
0:23:26 > 0:23:35Temperatures disappointing in Scotland. The winds will continue to
0:23:35 > 0:23:38be very large indeed, clear skies overnight, as temperatures fall
0:23:38 > 0:23:45away. First thing in the morning it's going to be on the chilly site.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49In rural spots we could see temperatures just below freezing, so
0:23:49 > 0:23:55our first widespread frost of the season. Andrew, you're quite right,
0:23:55 > 0:24:05but it's not going to last. Horrible, mushy, grey, mild weather!
0:24:05 > 0:24:10I hate it!
0:24:10 > 0:24:12Speaking yesterday the leader of the Opposition, Jeremy Corbyn,
0:24:12 > 0:24:16responded to stories of sexual abuse and the disgrace of a Labour MP,
0:24:16 > 0:24:19Jared O'Mara, by denouncing "a warped and degrading culture that
0:24:19 > 0:24:21exists and thrives in the corridors of power, including Westminster".
0:24:21 > 0:24:24Diane Abbott, now the Shadow Home Secretary, has lived inside that
0:24:24 > 0:24:27culture for three decades, and she joins me now.
0:24:27 > 0:24:33You have been there for a long time - do you recognise that as a warped
0:24:33 > 0:24:36and dangerous culture?Yes, and if anything it was worse when I first
0:24:36 > 0:24:40became an MP. You would remember, you were there. You would have
0:24:40 > 0:24:44micro-sexual aggression, so women would get up in the chamber and the
0:24:44 > 0:24:49Tories opposite would do this gesture like they were weighing
0:24:49 > 0:24:53their breasts. There was harassment, there were jokes. Party to do with
0:24:53 > 0:24:57the fact that it was a very male environment, just 20 women out of
0:24:57 > 0:25:03650 MPs when I went there. Hartley to do with all of these men away
0:25:03 > 0:25:06from home. Party to do with the fact that there were eight bars and very
0:25:06 > 0:25:10long hours and the bars were open for as long as they were sitting.
0:25:10 > 0:25:14Party due to the notion that what happens in Westminster stays in
0:25:14 > 0:25:18westerns to. It was worse. It is a little better now but there is a
0:25:18 > 0:25:24long way to go.Did you yourself face harassment?I have to say, when
0:25:24 > 0:25:31I was a new MP, I had a little boy, I was a single mother, I didn't have
0:25:31 > 0:25:35time to hang around bars. But I heard from colleagues and I saw some
0:25:35 > 0:25:40of the gestures and noises that were made in the chamber. Clare Short,
0:25:40 > 0:25:46who was a colleague at that time, she tries to have a campaign against
0:25:46 > 0:25:52naked women in the Sun, and the abuse she got from other MPs...
0:25:52 > 0:25:57People would be pulled now if that kind of thing happened.Fast forward
0:25:57 > 0:26:01to now and it is still about men in power and women relatively powerless
0:26:01 > 0:26:05in many cases, researchers and so forth. There is now a WhatsApp group
0:26:05 > 0:26:09and women are talking to each other. I don't know if you are aware of
0:26:09 > 0:26:13that, but there is a different atmosphere?The world has moved on.
0:26:13 > 0:26:17When I first went into Parliament, so many of those men had been to all
0:26:17 > 0:26:25boy boarding schools and had really archaic attitudes towards women.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28Middle-aged women, actually, are less likely now than middle-aged men
0:26:28 > 0:26:34to believe that young researchers are irresistibly sexually attracted
0:26:34 > 0:26:38to them. So the fact that we have women MPs helps with that. We have
0:26:38 > 0:26:44seen problems with our Labour colleague who had to be suspended
0:26:44 > 0:26:49for quite unacceptable language.We read in the Times about the
0:26:49 > 0:26:54allegations, the question is, what needs to change? Are you attracted
0:26:54 > 0:26:58by the idea which I think John Mann has talked about, some kind of
0:26:58 > 0:27:02central figure in Westminster who is there to receive those allegations
0:27:02 > 0:27:07and investigate them privately? Well, just this July, the Labour
0:27:07 > 0:27:11Party has changed its systems. We're going to be setting out where the
0:27:11 > 0:27:14accusations were made, and you will be able to make them anonymously,
0:27:14 > 0:27:18and we're going to have special sexual harassment panels and a
0:27:18 > 0:27:21special process for dealing with it. And I think all parties could learn
0:27:21 > 0:27:27from that. But this is not a problem for any particular party or fraction
0:27:27 > 0:27:32of a party, it runs right across Parliament.That said, Jared O'Mara,
0:27:32 > 0:27:35when did the Labour Party know about what he said?Well, when I heard
0:27:35 > 0:27:44about it was last Monday. He came and apologised and a lot of people
0:27:44 > 0:27:47took his apology quite seriously and then on Tuesday we had more
0:27:47 > 0:27:51information and he was suspended and the Labour Party is looking at it.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54There was a text which suggested the Labour Party was told this month ago
0:27:54 > 0:27:59and didn't do anything?I don't know anything about that. The party knew
0:27:59 > 0:28:03about it as far as I know, when the allegations became public, last
0:28:03 > 0:28:08week. This is an internal party issue.We are not hearing any sense
0:28:08 > 0:28:11to sit in judgment without knowing the facts over anybody, but
0:28:11 > 0:28:15nevertheless, if these kinds of things were said by any Labour MP,
0:28:15 > 0:28:19should they stay as an MP?You're talking about the language and the
0:28:19 > 0:28:28tone?Yes.Yes. That language and that town is not acceptable in 2017.
0:28:28 > 0:28:33We have now moved on, and the Labour Party is fairly clear that we're
0:28:33 > 0:28:36going to be a party with zero tolerance for sexual harassment.Do
0:28:36 > 0:28:42you think Jared O'Mara can stay as a Labour MP?I can't judge, because
0:28:42 > 0:28:50I've not seen the evidence. What I would say is that that language and
0:28:50 > 0:28:55that tone is unacceptable. The party has moved on. And you know, where
0:28:55 > 0:29:00you have that sort of language and that sort of harassment and sexual
0:29:00 > 0:29:05micro-aggression, it demeans and diminishes all women - that's why
0:29:05 > 0:29:08it's important to take a strong line.I don't know if you heard
0:29:08 > 0:29:13Michael Gove's comments, which have been all over the press - do you
0:29:13 > 0:29:17think it is an overreaction to those comments?I heard it and I didn't
0:29:17 > 0:29:23think it was funny. You know, particularly in Parliament, making
0:29:23 > 0:29:29sexual harassment the joke is not... We've got to realise that it's
0:29:29 > 0:29:33demeaning for women and undermines the institution.What about somebody
0:29:33 > 0:29:37else who is much closer to you, John McDonnell, I think you were actually
0:29:37 > 0:29:45at the meeting, and he said, why are we sacking her? Why aren't we
0:29:45 > 0:29:51lynching the...? I cannot use the word on television.I wasn't at that
0:29:51 > 0:29:55meeting, but I believe he was quoting from somebody else. But let
0:29:55 > 0:30:03me repeat, it undermines the case against sexual abuse and harassment
0:30:03 > 0:30:08if we try and make it a problem of a particular party or fraction.I
0:30:08 > 0:30:11absolutely accept that. I'm only asking you because this is your bit
0:30:11 > 0:30:17of the party and everybody has to call people out on these kind of
0:30:17 > 0:30:22things in their own institutions and organisations. Jess Phillips, who is
0:30:22 > 0:30:28chair of the women's PLP said, the targets of this betrayal, we should
0:30:28 > 0:30:32kill Thatcher, comment nominate always seems to be the one that
0:30:32 > 0:30:42these people are women -- the common denominator?
0:30:42 > 0:30:46Sexual abuse in the abuse of women has been a problem for a very long
0:30:46 > 0:30:52time.Including the left as well as the right?Making this a party
0:30:52 > 0:30:57political thing...I just want you to acknowledge that it affects your
0:30:57 > 0:31:01part of politics as well as the other.One of the first things I
0:31:01 > 0:31:05said was this is about Parliament as a whole, not about any one party,
0:31:05 > 0:31:09and I am sticking to that because that is correct. Once you start to
0:31:09 > 0:31:13make it a tit-for-tat, finger-pointing, party faction of
0:31:13 > 0:31:19thing, actually you undercut what ought to be in move forward to
0:31:19 > 0:31:22eliminate this type of talk from Parliament as a whole.Did you think
0:31:22 > 0:31:26this is a moment when the actual culture is changing and that meant,
0:31:26 > 0:31:30across Parliament, the BBC, anywhere else, are now going to look at what
0:31:30 > 0:31:35is on the front pages and change their behaviour?I hope so, because
0:31:35 > 0:31:39although Parliament has long had this toxic climate as Jeremy
0:31:39 > 0:31:42referred to yesterday, I don't believe broadcasters all newspapers
0:31:42 > 0:31:47are any better and I do hope that in the aftermath of the revelations
0:31:47 > 0:31:53about Harvey Weinstein and the film industry, modelling, that old male
0:31:53 > 0:31:57dominated professions will look at the way women are treated,
0:31:57 > 0:32:01disrespected, and spoken about, and we can see a change in attitudes.We
0:32:01 > 0:32:05have not spoken here since the general election campaign. During
0:32:05 > 0:32:09that campaign you were singled out and treated very, very aggressively
0:32:09 > 0:32:13by some parts of the media and indeed other politicians, Theresa
0:32:13 > 0:32:17May kept using your name, Diane Abbott, Diane Abbott, Diane Abbott,
0:32:17 > 0:32:21again and again and again. Do you think you were unfairly singled out
0:32:21 > 0:32:26or victimised during the campaign?I know I was singled out early in the
0:32:26 > 0:32:31campaign by a colleague fighting in a constituency who said there were
0:32:31 > 0:32:36lorries coming around her constituency...Why do you think
0:32:36 > 0:32:40that was?Also the tour we spent a lot of money on targeted Facebook
0:32:40 > 0:32:44advertising about me, I think they spent more money on me than anybody
0:32:44 > 0:32:49else.Do you think it was about the colour of your skin?You would have
0:32:49 > 0:32:54to ask them. There is no question that of all the Labour front bench I
0:32:54 > 0:33:00was singled out. The Daily Mail had I think 12 pages on me, Jeremy said
0:33:00 > 0:33:08they should do 24 pages next time to get more votes.Did you ever think I
0:33:08 > 0:33:12could put up with this any longer, I will leave public life?It is
0:33:12 > 0:33:15difficult but I have fantastic support from my friends and family
0:33:15 > 0:33:19and people in the constituency, people are still very supportive
0:33:19 > 0:33:22now. Fortunately British people are better than the tabloid press and
0:33:22 > 0:33:26some of their politicians.We haven't even mentioned Brexit yet,
0:33:26 > 0:33:32strange days! You have been very, very clear that abolishing free
0:33:32 > 0:33:38movement is connected in your future anti-immigrant racism, and yet when
0:33:38 > 0:33:42we leave the EU, which we will almost certainly do in March 2019,
0:33:42 > 0:33:47you may well be the person who ends free movement. A lot of people who
0:33:47 > 0:33:50voted for Brexit don't still understand what the Labour Party's
0:33:50 > 0:33:54position is going to be on free movement and migration after we have
0:33:54 > 0:33:58left the EU.First of all, lots of perfectly respectable reasons to
0:33:58 > 0:34:03vote for Brexit, Tony Benn would have voted for Brexit, had he been
0:34:03 > 0:34:09alive, he always argued for coming out of the European Union. But there
0:34:09 > 0:34:15is an anti-immigrant undercurrent, the Nigel Farage narrative, which
0:34:15 > 0:34:19was not something which Tony Benn would have had any time for. When we
0:34:19 > 0:34:24leave the single market, free movement falls because free movement
0:34:24 > 0:34:30is part of being in the single market.So if you are a voter who
0:34:30 > 0:34:33decided to vote for Brexit because they wanted fewer people coming here
0:34:33 > 0:34:39from the EU, will that happen under a Labour Government?Under a Labour
0:34:39 > 0:34:45Government, we will have fair rules, managed migration, we will deal with
0:34:45 > 0:34:51some of these predatory employers using not just European Union
0:34:51 > 0:34:54immigrants but immigrants from other parts of the world to undercut
0:34:54 > 0:34:57British workers, we will deal with that and we have spoken about the
0:34:57 > 0:35:01things we will do.To put it brutally and coarsely, lots of
0:35:01 > 0:35:05people out there would want fewer Polish people, French people,
0:35:05 > 0:35:07Spanish people, arriving here and still don't know whether that would
0:35:07 > 0:35:12be the case under Labour.People want fair rules and managed
0:35:12 > 0:35:17migration, but if they also want eight jobs Brexit and a Brexit which
0:35:17 > 0:35:23does not harm the economy, they should be voting Labour.One final
0:35:23 > 0:35:26question, in this morning's papers you have seen a report that
0:35:26 > 0:35:31prisoners will get the vote in some circumstances, what is the Labour
0:35:31 > 0:35:34position on that?The European Court of Human Rights has said. Years that
0:35:34 > 0:35:39we cannot stop all prisoners having the vote, and the Labour Party
0:35:39 > 0:35:46believes that we should indeed, in the end, we have to support the
0:35:46 > 0:35:49position of the European Court of Human Rights. So prisoners should
0:35:49 > 0:35:53have the boat? It is not whether they should have the vote but
0:35:53 > 0:35:56whether we should abide by the European Court of Human Rights, and
0:35:56 > 0:35:59I think abiding by the European Court of Human Rights, whether we
0:35:59 > 0:36:03are in the EU will not, abiding by those human rights issues is very
0:36:03 > 0:36:07much a tenet of the type of socialism I believe in.One final
0:36:07 > 0:36:11question, do you think a Labour Government would or should recognise
0:36:11 > 0:36:18the Catalans as an independent state? A nice easy one for you!It
0:36:18 > 0:36:23is a very difficult and tragic situation. We would want to see it
0:36:23 > 0:36:30resolved by negotiation and we would want to see it resolved under the
0:36:30 > 0:36:34laws and legislation of Spain.The Government here has been clear there
0:36:34 > 0:36:37would not recognise an independent Catalonia, I wonder if the Labour
0:36:37 > 0:36:41Party position is the same?We are clear this has to be resolved by
0:36:41 > 0:36:44negotiation. The pictures that we saw of what happened when the
0:36:44 > 0:36:50Catalans tried to have a referendum, of violence, the police, they were
0:36:50 > 0:36:54dreadful, no one wants to see those in a fellow European country.All of
0:36:54 > 0:36:58this is true but not quite an answer to my question.We believe that the
0:36:58 > 0:37:02situation should be resolved by negotiation, it is not for us to cut
0:37:02 > 0:37:06across the laws and constitution is of another country.Diane Abbott,
0:37:06 > 0:37:09thank you very much indeed for talking to us.
0:37:09 > 0:37:11Coming up later this morning on the Sunday Politics,
0:37:11 > 0:37:13Sarah Smith talks to the chair of the Brexit committee,
0:37:13 > 0:37:15Hilary Benn, and former Cabinet Minister Theresa Villiers
0:37:15 > 0:37:16on airport expansion.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20That's the Sunday Politics at 11am.
0:37:20 > 0:37:23Theresa May says that, for far too long, mental health has
0:37:23 > 0:37:25been disregarded compared to physical health in this country,
0:37:25 > 0:37:28and things need to change.
0:37:28 > 0:37:30She's promising to defeat the stigma of mental illness.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34But what, over the last seven years, is the actual Tory record on this?
0:37:34 > 0:37:40The Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, is with me.
0:37:40 > 0:37:44Welcome, Mr Hunt. Can I ask you, on your watch, has provision for mental
0:37:44 > 0:37:48health got better or worse?It has got better but needs to get a lot
0:37:48 > 0:37:54better still. We are treating now 1400 more people every day, seeing a
0:37:54 > 0:37:59real increase in resources hitting the front line, but when we made
0:37:59 > 0:38:04that historic change in the law in 2012 when we said that we wanted to
0:38:04 > 0:38:08end the terrible injustice of the fact that if you break a leg you get
0:38:08 > 0:38:11treated immediately in A&E but if you have a mental health crisis you
0:38:11 > 0:38:16might have to wait weeks or months to be seen, to change that is going
0:38:16 > 0:38:20to take a bit of time and we are making progress on the right
0:38:20 > 0:38:24direction but there is a lot more to do.You say it is getting better.
0:38:24 > 0:38:28For a young person who may have an anxiety disorder, depression, an
0:38:28 > 0:38:31eating disorder or whatever, how long should they have to wait before
0:38:31 > 0:38:35they are seen by the NHS?We have said for an eating disorder we have
0:38:35 > 0:38:40introduced a waiting time standard, I think we are the first country in
0:38:40 > 0:38:43the world to do that for eating disorders, we have said if it is an
0:38:43 > 0:38:46emergency they should be seen the same week but you should certainly
0:38:46 > 0:38:50be seen within four weeks. We are setting up a series of eating
0:38:50 > 0:38:57disorder units across the country... Psychosis, depression?On psychosis,
0:38:57 > 0:39:00again, we are the first country in the world to set up a waiting time
0:39:00 > 0:39:04standard for your first incident of psychosis but in order to deliver
0:39:04 > 0:39:08that we have to train up staff, trained psychiatrist, mental health
0:39:08 > 0:39:14nurses, that is why I announced in July and additional 21,000 posts
0:39:14 > 0:39:18that we will be recruiting for in the NHS in order to deliver those.
0:39:18 > 0:39:22The quality care commission did a study on this and found some young
0:39:22 > 0:39:26people were waiting 18 months for any kind of treatment?That is
0:39:26 > 0:39:29totally unacceptable and that is why a couple of years ago we put
0:39:29 > 0:39:35together a big report, authored by Paul Farmer, the chief executive of
0:39:35 > 0:39:39Mind, as to how we make progress towards this parity of esteem, and
0:39:39 > 0:39:45what we said was that, by 2020, 21, we would aim to treat 1 million more
0:39:45 > 0:39:49people every year, £1 billion extra resources into mental health, but
0:39:49 > 0:39:53that it would take some time to get there because of the training of new
0:39:53 > 0:39:58staff, expansion of capacity that we need. We are, as I say, making good
0:39:58 > 0:40:03progress in delivering that.You make it all sound very sunny but The
0:40:03 > 0:40:07Children's Society said 30,000 children were turned away in a year,
0:40:07 > 0:40:11getting no help at all from the NHS, and if we look at the resources
0:40:11 > 0:40:16problem, it comes down to resources, when you came to power can you
0:40:16 > 0:40:18remember how many mental health nurses there were?I think you are
0:40:18 > 0:40:24going to tell me the number has gone down.By 5000, a lot.Let me explain
0:40:24 > 0:40:28why. Over the last five years we have been dealing with the terrible
0:40:28 > 0:40:32problems that we had in Mid-Staffs and what that meant what we needed
0:40:32 > 0:40:36to get more nurses into hospital wards. Over that period we had
0:40:36 > 0:40:4111,000 more nurses in the NHS as a whole but they have tended to go
0:40:41 > 0:40:44into hospitals where we had an urgent problem to deal with. Overall
0:40:44 > 0:40:47in terms of mental health staff, those working in mental health
0:40:47 > 0:40:52trust, we have got more than seven years ago so we are expanding the
0:40:52 > 0:41:00numbers...Was it a mistake to take out 5000 mental health nurses?It
0:41:00 > 0:41:04was not a conscious decision, we had a crisis and realised a number of
0:41:04 > 0:41:07hospitals across the country were unsafe so we had a big effort to
0:41:07 > 0:41:13make them safe and I think that has borne fruit. But the unintended
0:41:13 > 0:41:15consequence was pressure on mental health nursing and the overall
0:41:15 > 0:41:18lesson was we don't have enough nurses and that is why at the
0:41:18 > 0:41:22Conservative party conference a few weeks ago I announced a 25% increase
0:41:22 > 0:41:26in the number of nurse training places, because the fact is we need
0:41:26 > 0:41:32more nurses.Given that you could the nurses in the first place, it
0:41:32 > 0:41:36does seem as if Jeremy Hunt has decided to clear up the mess made by
0:41:36 > 0:41:40Jeremy Hunt.With respect, we have 11,000 more nurses now in the NHS
0:41:40 > 0:41:43than when I became health secretaries of the one thing you
0:41:43 > 0:41:46cannot say is that I have not prioritised the importance of nurses
0:41:46 > 0:41:50in delivering safe care. We also have more people working in mental
0:41:50 > 0:41:54health. There has been a specific issue on mental health nursing but
0:41:54 > 0:42:03we are sorting that out.What about beds, because it is more or less the
0:42:03 > 0:42:05same story, 7500 put in mental health beds, for instance.There are
0:42:05 > 0:42:11two things going on, the first is that we know that it is much better,
0:42:11 > 0:42:14if you can, to treat someone with severe mental health problems in the
0:42:14 > 0:42:18community where they are properly looked after, often by NHS staff,
0:42:18 > 0:42:23than it is in what we used to have, the old asylums, so there is a trend
0:42:23 > 0:42:28away from hospital care.Yet there are people who need hospital care,
0:42:28 > 0:42:32June the 1st last year there was a moment in London when, if you were a
0:42:32 > 0:42:35young person with a mental health problem, there was not a single
0:42:35 > 0:42:39hospital bed available for you in London, the capital of one of the
0:42:39 > 0:42:44world -- the capital, and one of the world's greatest cities. That is
0:42:44 > 0:42:51scandal. We have a problem with what is called the tier four bed and we
0:42:51 > 0:42:55have increased those in response to those issues.What is most
0:42:55 > 0:43:01unacceptable is if you are a young person and need to be an NHS
0:43:01 > 0:43:04inpatient in a mental health organisation, to have to go to the
0:43:04 > 0:43:07other side of the country, because what matters in terms of your
0:43:07 > 0:43:10recovery is that you can be visited by parents or friends...That is
0:43:10 > 0:43:14happening again and again because of the lack of nurses and beds on your
0:43:14 > 0:43:18watch.Andrew, I think you are mis-characterising what has happened
0:43:18 > 0:43:22because there is more money, more people working in mental health, we
0:43:22 > 0:43:26are increasing the number of beds particularly for younger people, but
0:43:26 > 0:43:31Rome wasn't built in a day and if we are going to achieve Theresa May's
0:43:31 > 0:43:34ambition of full parity of esteem between mental and physical help
0:43:34 > 0:43:37then we are going to need to train up many, many more people to deliver
0:43:37 > 0:43:42that. That is what we are doing, and we are absolutely determined to end
0:43:42 > 0:43:47this injustice that we have at the moment.Seven years to end this
0:43:47 > 0:43:51injustice, you are entering your sixth year as Health Secretary,
0:43:51 > 0:43:56which makes you the third longest in the post since neither them, and I
0:43:56 > 0:44:03can't under who else...Norman Fowler.One of the longest serving
0:44:03 > 0:44:07Health Secretary. Do not recognise that given the cuts in bed and
0:44:07 > 0:44:10nurses over time, part of the crisis has happened on your watch and is a
0:44:10 > 0:44:14result of the cuts made at the beginning of your time?Andrew, you
0:44:14 > 0:44:18are only painting a limited picture. What has actually happened on my
0:44:18 > 0:44:22watch is the biggest expansion of mental health provision in Europe.
0:44:22 > 0:44:26Other countries are looking at what we are doing... Forgive me, if not
0:44:26 > 0:44:33the bed and nurses, where is the expansion taking place?For example,
0:44:33 > 0:44:36treatment on anxiety and depression, what we are doing now is considered
0:44:36 > 0:44:39world leading, being copied by the Swedes, who are looking to import
0:44:39 > 0:44:43what we are doing on psychological therapy into Stockholm. Overall, we
0:44:43 > 0:44:47are treating, I am saying this for the second time because I don't
0:44:47 > 0:44:51think it registered, 1400 more people every day, there is a big
0:44:51 > 0:44:55expansion, 3000 more people working in talking therapies...People
0:44:55 > 0:45:06outside saying so many different things.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15The president of the family board, I'm sure you will remember the case
0:45:15 > 0:45:18of a 17-year-old girl who was a recital and about to be released and
0:45:18 > 0:45:20he condemned the disgraceful and utterly shaming black of proper
0:45:20 > 0:45:22provision in this country and he said, we, the system, society and
0:45:22 > 0:45:25the state will have blood on our hands. Things then changed for that
0:45:25 > 0:45:28girl but he took -- but it took a High Court judge to say that
0:45:28 > 0:45:30publicly and come to the Secretary of State to get changes.And he was
0:45:30 > 0:45:34right to say that but that is why we are changing. In the last year, for
0:45:34 > 0:45:36example, we are spending over half £1 billion more on mental health in
0:45:36 > 0:45:40the NHS, at a time when, as you know, NHS resources are very
0:45:40 > 0:45:45constrained, but the reality is, because we are proud to offer a
0:45:45 > 0:45:50service that is free at the point of use in the NHS, and rightly so,
0:45:50 > 0:45:54there is huge untapped demand for mental health provision and we know
0:45:54 > 0:45:59now that you can, in many cases, make a mental illness completely
0:45:59 > 0:46:03better, and because people understand that there are lots of
0:46:03 > 0:46:06people who want NHS care, but it will not be solved overnight and we
0:46:06 > 0:46:12have to be honest with the British people, our plan is 2020-21, we will
0:46:12 > 0:46:16deliver the Paul Farmer plan and be tweeting more people every year, we
0:46:16 > 0:46:20are on track to do that but it will not happen overnight, there is no
0:46:20 > 0:46:32silver bullet, I'm afraid it takes time.
0:46:32 > 0:46:37You have been at Westminster for a very long time and you have heard
0:46:37 > 0:46:44all of the stories, what you think about them?These stories if they
0:46:44 > 0:46:48are true are totally unacceptable. The Cabinet Office will be
0:46:48 > 0:46:52conducting an investigation as to whether there has been a breach of
0:46:52 > 0:46:56the ministerial code in this particular case. The facts are
0:46:56 > 0:47:02disputed, obviously. But there are mums and dads who have daughters who
0:47:02 > 0:47:05are politics students hoping to get a job in Westminster. They must be
0:47:05 > 0:47:07able to be confident that if they get that job, their daughter will
0:47:07 > 0:47:11not be subject to some of these behaviours, so it's absolutely
0:47:11 > 0:47:14essential that we sort this out. Nobody wants trial by television,
0:47:14 > 0:47:18but nonetheless the Mysterio code covers this area, does it?It does,
0:47:18 > 0:47:23this area and many others. But I think it is important, you were
0:47:23 > 0:47:26having the same discussion with Diane Abbott, and the other point to
0:47:26 > 0:47:32make is that this is something which covers behaviour by MPs of all
0:47:32 > 0:47:36parties, and that's why the other thing that's going to happen is that
0:47:36 > 0:47:40today, Theresa May is going to write to the Speaker to ask for his advice
0:47:40 > 0:47:44as to how we change that culture. I would agree with Diane Abbott, I
0:47:44 > 0:47:48think things have got better in recent years, but there's still a
0:47:48 > 0:47:52long way to go.Do you agree with John Mann that there should be some
0:47:52 > 0:47:55kind of miss entry character who receives allegations of this nature,
0:47:55 > 0:48:02logs into them in private, a place that people can go?Well, I think
0:48:02 > 0:48:07there is merit in the idea of having someone anonymously or you can talk
0:48:07 > 0:48:10to if you're unhappy about the way you've been treated. But I think
0:48:10 > 0:48:14these things need to be looked at probably by the Speaker, because
0:48:14 > 0:48:20it's about the conduct of Parliament has a whole.Let's turn back to the
0:48:20 > 0:48:23NHS. Normally in these interviews, I have statistics and you have
0:48:23 > 0:48:29statistics and we throw them at each other! We've already done that! So,
0:48:29 > 0:48:34let's do something slightly different and ask you to listen to
0:48:34 > 0:48:37the test any of a nurse who spoke to Newsnight last week, and this is
0:48:37 > 0:48:41what she said.The way that things have become in A&E over the last two
0:48:41 > 0:48:46years, we're at breaking point, it can't carry on. Queues on the
0:48:46 > 0:48:49corridor and the situation that the patients are in and that the
0:48:49 > 0:48:55department is in, it's unsafe. We're probably seeing about 100 patients
0:48:55 > 0:48:59more per day than we were a year ago. It just seems to be acceptable
0:48:59 > 0:49:06to treat people on the corridor, and it's not be defied, really, is it?
0:49:06 > 0:49:13To see the NHS as it is now, erm, I don't see it getting any better. In
0:49:13 > 0:49:18my eyes, it's just going to get worse.Now, that's how it feels from
0:49:18 > 0:49:21the perspective of one nurse in Birmingham. What would you say to
0:49:21 > 0:49:26that?Well, I listen to that with a great deal of sympathy, because I
0:49:26 > 0:49:31think she speaks for a lot of people who feel an enormous amount of
0:49:31 > 0:49:35stress on the front line, our hospitals have never been busier,
0:49:35 > 0:49:39our NHS staff have never worked harder. We have this enormous
0:49:39 > 0:49:43pressure of an ageing population, and there is no doubt that we are
0:49:43 > 0:49:47going to need to find more money for the NHS in the years ahead of us,
0:49:47 > 0:49:53because we have a million more over Max Evans fives coming down the
0:49:53 > 0:49:56railway track in the next decade. And what do we want? We want the NHS
0:49:56 > 0:50:02to be the safest and best health service anywhere in the world. As a
0:50:02 > 0:50:08Conservative, I believe that good public services are moral purpose of
0:50:08 > 0:50:12a strong capitalist economy, that's why we do it. And so what we need to
0:50:12 > 0:50:16do as a government is to make sure the NHS gets the resources it needs,
0:50:16 > 0:50:19and that has been very difficult because of the financial situation
0:50:19 > 0:50:25the country is in. But over the last few years we've started to seize
0:50:25 > 0:50:30some increases, and we need to address that nurse's concerns,
0:50:30 > 0:50:33because what she wants is what I want, which is to make sure we give
0:50:33 > 0:50:38patients the very best care.The last time we spoke you said that it
0:50:38 > 0:50:43was very clear that the NHS does need more resources. You're just
0:50:43 > 0:50:48about to lift the 1% cap on NHS pay, which will delight a lot of people
0:50:48 > 0:50:53working in the NHS - are they actually going to get a pay
0:50:53 > 0:50:56increase?Well, we have the independent pay review body which
0:50:56 > 0:51:00looks at this, and it would be one for me on how to give you a view as
0:51:00 > 0:51:04to where I think that process will end up, because I want to hear what
0:51:04 > 0:51:09the independent experts say would be a fair pay rise. But one of the
0:51:09 > 0:51:13things which is behind the frustration of that nurse and others
0:51:13 > 0:51:17is that they have had pay restraint for many, many years, and they want
0:51:17 > 0:51:24to see some recognition of the very hard work they do.So, even a 3%
0:51:24 > 0:51:27rise would not actually be a pay rise for most people, given
0:51:27 > 0:51:34inflation. But to give people a sense, how much would a 3% rise cost
0:51:34 > 0:51:39the NHS?It would probably be £1 billion, so it's a serious amount of
0:51:39 > 0:51:45it. The Chancellor has said that if we can have a negotiation and look
0:51:45 > 0:51:49at some of the ways that we can improve productivity at the same
0:51:49 > 0:51:53time condo he's willing to have a discussion with me about finding
0:51:53 > 0:51:59extra resources.This is the crucial question. You've got mental health,
0:51:59 > 0:52:04many other things, and now the pay pressure as well - are you going to
0:52:04 > 0:52:07be able to marry this with the new money from the Chancellor which
0:52:07 > 0:52:10allows you to pay people more without actually cutting back
0:52:10 > 0:52:14elsewhere in hospitals?Well, this government is absolutely committed
0:52:14 > 0:52:19to making our NHS the safest and best health care system. We
0:52:19 > 0:52:22recognise there's a lot of work to do in mental health and many other
0:52:22 > 0:52:26areas as well. I will be making a very robust case for the NHS to get
0:52:26 > 0:52:30the resources it needs, as I'm sure other Cabinet ministers will be
0:52:30 > 0:52:35doing for their departments. But when it comes to money for the NHS,
0:52:35 > 0:52:40every week we have avoidable death, avoidable harm in the NHS. That is
0:52:40 > 0:52:44nothing to do with resources, at least not principally to do with
0:52:44 > 0:52:49resources. If we're going to be the best, we have to have a culture of
0:52:49 > 0:52:54safety and quality which comes from the inside, as well as the cheque
0:52:54 > 0:53:02from the Chancellor. The two need to go together. The CQC say that the
0:53:02 > 0:53:06care is getting safer. The Commonwealth Fund and the
0:53:06 > 0:53:09independent think-tank say the NHS is the best health care system in
0:53:09 > 0:53:14the world. So, the final thing I would say to that nurse is, yes, we
0:53:14 > 0:53:19face enormous pressures, but we're not the only country. Our NHS and
0:53:19 > 0:53:23our values put us in a better place to deal with those pressures than
0:53:23 > 0:53:28many other countries.Perhaps it is because we ask the NHS to do so much
0:53:28 > 0:53:34and we do relatively little ourselves. There was an interesting
0:53:34 > 0:53:37experiment in Hertfordshire, saying to people that if they want
0:53:37 > 0:53:41nonurgent operations, they can't have it while they're still smoking.
0:53:41 > 0:53:44They're going to Brecel lies them to check that they have not been
0:53:44 > 0:53:47smoking for six weeks before the operation - do you think that kind
0:53:47 > 0:53:54of thing is a good idea?I do think that we have to allow some local
0:53:54 > 0:53:57discretion in these areas. There are a number of operations where your
0:53:57 > 0:54:02recovery is a lot quicker if you're not a smoker. The thinking behind
0:54:02 > 0:54:05these kind of scheme is that you will have better surgical outcomes
0:54:05 > 0:54:10if you do this... It is not something I would suggest for the
0:54:10 > 0:54:13whole NHS, we need to see if it works in Hertfordshire.It's more
0:54:13 > 0:54:19the general philosophical question, if you drink, if you smoke - these
0:54:19 > 0:54:23things should be taken into account, a kind of deal between you and the
0:54:23 > 0:54:30NHS?I think I believe in a taxpayer funded system, where care is not
0:54:30 > 0:54:33rushing and everybody pays their taxes. But I also believe in
0:54:33 > 0:54:37personal responsibility. And I think we all have responsibility in terms
0:54:37 > 0:54:43of the lifestyle that we lead, to ourselves and also to our fellow
0:54:43 > 0:54:46citizens, and also in terms of the pressures that are being put on the
0:54:46 > 0:54:52NHS. But I think British citizens understand that, because the NHS
0:54:52 > 0:54:56belongs to all of us, and we all need to do our bit to make sure that
0:54:56 > 0:55:00we don't exacerbate the pressures which are very real.There has been
0:55:00 > 0:55:03quite a dramatic crop in the number of nurses coming into the NHS from
0:55:03 > 0:55:09the rest of the EU after the Brexit vote - are you worried about that?I
0:55:09 > 0:55:17think, of course, Brexit brings a number of concerns to the NHS. What
0:55:17 > 0:55:21I always try to do is to reassure the brilliant doctors and nurses
0:55:21 > 0:55:27from the EU who are working in the NHS that they do a fantastic job, we
0:55:27 > 0:55:29want you to stay and we're very confident that you will be able to
0:55:29 > 0:55:33stay. But in a period of difficult negotiations, it's probably not
0:55:33 > 0:55:37surprising that you're going to have some tailing off of applications
0:55:37 > 0:55:42from people from other countries, not least because they have their
0:55:42 > 0:55:45own ageing populations, and countries like Spain and Portugal
0:55:45 > 0:55:47are recruiting nurses in significant numbers for the first time in a
0:55:47 > 0:55:52while.John McDonnell has been in touch to make it absolutely clear
0:55:52 > 0:55:57that he was repeating comments other people had made about lynching
0:55:57 > 0:56:03Esther McVey. He wanted to clarify that.
0:56:03 > 0:56:07Now, a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.
0:56:07 > 0:56:12How tough should we be on British jihadists coming back after fighting
0:56:12 > 0:56:19with Islamic State? And forest bathing, the latest way to de-stress
0:56:19 > 0:56:23by getting to know a tree! All of that coming up.
0:56:23 > 0:56:26Almost out of time for today.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29Next week, I'll be talking to the Queen - well, OK,
0:56:29 > 0:56:31not exactly the Queen, but the wonderful Olivia Colman,
0:56:31 > 0:56:32who's going to be playing her.
0:56:32 > 0:56:33Lucky Queen.
0:56:33 > 0:56:36We leave you now with a maverick star of Americana.
0:56:36 > 0:56:38Grammy Award winner Jason Isbell is one of the few recording artists
0:56:38 > 0:56:40who is completely independent of any label.
0:56:40 > 0:56:44The Nashville Sound, an acclaimed new album,
0:56:44 > 0:56:46sees him touring the UK with his band 400 Unit.
0:56:46 > 0:56:48He's here this morning with If We Were Vampires.
0:56:48 > 0:56:49Goodbye.
0:56:49 > 0:56:53# It's not the long flowing dress that you're in
0:56:53 > 0:56:58# Or the light coming off of your skin
0:56:58 > 0:57:03# The fragile heart you protected for so long
0:57:03 > 0:57:08# Or the mercy in your sense of right and wrong
0:57:08 > 0:57:12# It's not your hands, searching slow in the dark
0:57:12 > 0:57:17# Or your nails leaving love's watermark
0:57:17 > 0:57:23# It's not the way you talk me off the roof
0:57:23 > 0:57:28# Your questions like directions to the truth
0:57:28 > 0:57:37# It's knowing that this can't go on forever
0:57:37 > 0:57:40# Likely one of us will have to spend some days alone
0:57:40 > 0:57:45# Maybe we'll get 40 years together
0:57:45 > 0:57:48# But one day I'll be gone or one day you'll be gone
0:57:48 > 0:57:52# If we were vampires and death was a joke
0:57:52 > 0:57:57# We'd go out on the sidewalk and smoke
0:57:57 > 0:58:02# And laugh at all the lovers and their plans
0:58:02 > 0:58:07# I wouldn't feel the need to hold your hand
0:58:07 > 0:58:11# Maybe time running out is a gift
0:58:11 > 0:58:17# I'll work hard 'til the end of my shift
0:58:17 > 0:58:22# And give you every second I can find
0:58:22 > 0:58:28# And hope it isn't me who's left behind
0:58:28 > 0:58:33# It's knowing that this can't go on forever
0:58:33 > 0:58:38# Likely one of us will have to spend some days alone
0:58:38 > 0:58:42# Maybe we'll get 40 years together
0:58:42 > 0:58:50# But one day I'll be gone or one day you'll be gone