0:00:04 > 0:00:05Good morning.
0:00:05 > 0:00:09There's a long tradition about the days after the Budget.
0:00:09 > 0:00:13Bit by bit, it unravels, and an ashen-faced Chancellor has
0:00:13 > 0:00:17to scrabble around apologising for his mistakes.
0:00:17 > 0:00:18But not this year.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21Philip Hammond has been warmly applauded by the Tory party -
0:00:21 > 0:00:24even the Daily Mail withdrew its claim that he was
0:00:24 > 0:00:29Britain's Eeyore.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31But, those forecasts - basically that we're all going to be
0:00:31 > 0:00:34poorer for much longer than we thought - show
0:00:34 > 0:00:35there might be trouble ahead.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38Bad for Britain, but in pure electoral terms, perhaps,
0:00:38 > 0:00:43a huge opportunity for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01I'm joined this morning by the woman many Tories see
0:01:01 > 0:01:04as their future Prime Minister - the Leader of the Scottish
0:01:04 > 0:01:07Conservatives, Ruth Davidson.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11And by a key member of Labour's economic team, Barry Gardiner,
0:01:11 > 0:01:16on Labour's vision for the economy.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Keeping an eye on both of them, the grand wizard of the numbers,
0:01:19 > 0:01:24Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29And remember this?
0:01:29 > 0:01:31I've still got the pieces.
0:01:37 > 0:01:45So I'm not going to wear a dog collar until Mugabe has gone.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47But now Mugabe's gone, will the Archbishop
0:01:47 > 0:01:48put his collar back on?
0:01:48 > 0:01:50And a message to the UK from ABBA.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52Benny Andersson has got this to say about Brexit.
0:01:52 > 0:01:59We need you in there. Because it's like, you have a friend, and he
0:01:59 > 0:02:05says, we don't want to be friends with you any more. Stay.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07I'll be talking to him and Sir Tim Rice
0:02:07 > 0:02:08about their Cold War musical, "Chess".
0:02:08 > 0:02:11Plus, we'll have a fantastic tune from three other musical
0:02:11 > 0:02:18greats: Jools Holland, Jose Feliciano and Ruby Turner.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22# Hey Ray...
0:02:22 > 0:02:24And reviewing the papers - the former Tory adviser and head
0:02:24 > 0:02:27of media for the Vote Leave campaign, Robert Oxley; the writer
0:02:27 > 0:02:29and commentator Ellie Mae O'Hagan, and the political editor
0:02:29 > 0:02:30of the Financial Times, George Parker.
0:02:30 > 0:02:34But first, the news with Tina Daheley.
0:02:34 > 0:02:35Good morning.
0:02:35 > 0:02:39Ireland's European Commissioner has urged the UK not to leave the single
0:02:39 > 0:02:41market and customs union.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44Phil Hogan has told The Observer that it would be the best way
0:02:44 > 0:02:47to avoid stringent border controls between Northern Ireland
0:02:47 > 0:02:48and the Republic.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52Theresa May hopes the EU will agree to move the Brexit talks onto trade
0:02:52 > 0:02:53at next month's summit.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56But Mr Hogan warns Ireland will use its veto to stop progress
0:02:56 > 0:03:00if it is not satisfied.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03People who fly drones will be required to take safety awareness
0:03:03 > 0:03:07tests as part of a government clamp-down on rogue operators.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10Owners will be banned from flying them near airports,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13while the police will be given new powers to seize the machines.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16They are part of plans to crack down on criminal
0:03:16 > 0:03:18and unsafe use of drones - which have been used
0:03:18 > 0:03:23for smuggling, and involved in near-misses with aeroplanes.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26There's concern that a volcano on the Indonesian island of Bali
0:03:26 > 0:03:28may be about to erupt.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31Mount Agung last errupted in 1963.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35Around 25,000 people have been evacuated since volcanic activity
0:03:35 > 0:03:37was first seen in September.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41Some flights have been cancelled, and an airport on the neighbouring
0:03:41 > 0:03:43island of Lombok has been closed.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46Military history will be made at Buckingham Palace this morning,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50when sailors from the Royal Navy take part in the changing of
0:03:50 > 0:03:52the guard for the very first time.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55More than 80 sailors have been taught the intricate routines
0:03:55 > 0:03:57and drill movements required for the duty,
0:03:57 > 0:04:01which is usually carried out by the Army's Household Division.
0:04:01 > 0:04:06That's all from me.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08The next news on BBC One is at 1.00.
0:04:08 > 0:04:09Back to you, Andrew.
0:04:09 > 0:04:10Thank you.
0:04:10 > 0:04:16Now to the papers.
0:04:16 > 0:04:21The one story that is really taking focused this morning is the Irish
0:04:21 > 0:04:26border. The Observer has it there, with the Irish Commissioner warning
0:04:26 > 0:04:32Theresa May to change course or risk Brexit chaos. We only have to weeks
0:04:32 > 0:04:39to sort this out. There is the Sunday town -- the Sunday Times with
0:04:39 > 0:04:46a very sad story there. We see Meghan Markle on almost every front
0:04:46 > 0:04:51page, her and Harry. That is Victoria Beckham there. A big EU
0:04:51 > 0:04:58story, and lots of Brexit coverage this morning. On the other side of
0:04:58 > 0:05:03the Irish story, a fairly withering comment from the DUP, saying that
0:05:03 > 0:05:08they will not put up with having no border at all. In the Mail on Sunday
0:05:08 > 0:05:12there, quite a complicated story about an alleged link between
0:05:12 > 0:05:16Brexiteers and Russia and so forth, but you have to follow quite a lot
0:05:16 > 0:05:22of dots to work it out. There is Meghan Markle again. The press is
0:05:22 > 0:05:26already gearing up for some kind of wedding announcement shortly. We
0:05:26 > 0:05:31will not be talking very much about that, I suspect. We will start
0:05:31 > 0:05:38talking about the Irish border story and the Observer front-page.This
0:05:38 > 0:05:42continued anti-Brexit coverage has splashed the idea that Ireland's EU
0:05:42 > 0:05:47Commissioner thinks that the only way Northern Ireland can stay in the
0:05:47 > 0:05:51customs union or the single market... The DUP do not think that
0:05:51 > 0:05:56is right. They do not want to see the UK and Northern Ireland
0:05:56 > 0:06:00separated off. The EU Commissioner pronouncing on a UK issue, I think
0:06:00 > 0:06:04that is one of the reasons people voted to leave. Also this
0:06:04 > 0:06:10interference back into the UK domestic scene, and potentially
0:06:10 > 0:06:13making some significant constitutional changes to the
0:06:13 > 0:06:15relationship between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland
0:06:15 > 0:06:22is not the sort of thing that should be happening in this way. It is
0:06:22 > 0:06:25interesting that we have got to one of the bigger issues of Brexit.We
0:06:25 > 0:06:30didn't hear much of this in the campaign.In the Vote Leave
0:06:30 > 0:06:36campaign, we set out what people didn't like in the European Union.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40They didn't like that it was too controlling. That is what people
0:06:40 > 0:06:44said. I think this story Pulis it's one of the things the British people
0:06:44 > 0:06:51didn't like.Anything that separates Northern Ireland from the rest of
0:06:51 > 0:06:55the United Kingdom, economically or politically, is something that we
0:06:55 > 0:07:03could not bear. So there is something... A big choice now. Does
0:07:03 > 0:07:08Northern Ireland stay in side the customs union, or if not, if they
0:07:08 > 0:07:13stay in the rest of the UK, there is going to have to be some kind of
0:07:13 > 0:07:20border? That is in excess ten shall choice, not just for Ireland.There
0:07:20 > 0:07:24are going to have to be third way is coming through these decisions. What
0:07:24 > 0:07:29you have here is possibly one of the more interesting issues, getting
0:07:29 > 0:07:33away from the bill that has dominated our coverage so far. The
0:07:33 > 0:07:38public voted to take back control and they wanted these decisions to
0:07:38 > 0:07:43be taken. Ireland could be playing with fire here if they decide to up
0:07:43 > 0:07:47the ante. If there is a Brexit that cuts the UK off, Ireland have the
0:07:47 > 0:07:52most use from it. I don't think that will happen. I think common sense
0:07:52 > 0:07:59prevail.Three of the most articulate advocates of Brexit were
0:07:59 > 0:08:03newspaper columnists, like Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. Now we are
0:08:03 > 0:08:08talking about what is in the next 1000 words.There are too many
0:08:08 > 0:08:16journalists getting into politics, is that it?This is the Irish side
0:08:16 > 0:08:22of the same story. The same relations between Dublin and London,
0:08:22 > 0:08:27saying they have not been so strained for years. Talking about
0:08:27 > 0:08:31the terrible relationship between the Irish Taoiseach and Theresa May.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36He quotes a former Conservative minister. What the hell does your
0:08:36 > 0:08:40government think it's doing? That is the point Rob was making. If these
0:08:40 > 0:08:45talks break down, you end up with no deal, and a very hard border in
0:08:45 > 0:08:51deep.Very serious stuff. We are sitting here after the budget, and
0:08:51 > 0:08:54the immediate aftermath was quite good for the Chancellor. But there's
0:08:54 > 0:08:59a lot of trouble ahead. You picked a story from the Sunday Mirror about
0:08:59 > 0:09:09the NHS.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12Yes. Philip Hammond gave £4 billion to the banks, but only £2.8 billion
0:09:12 > 0:09:15to the NHS, and the reason I picked this out is because this plays to
0:09:15 > 0:09:19what a lot of people in the country think at the moment, that we have a
0:09:19 > 0:09:23government interested in looking after the interests of the rich and
0:09:23 > 0:09:28not ordinarily people. There's been a few successful days of press
0:09:28 > 0:09:31coverage, better than the calamitous headlines the Tories have been
0:09:31 > 0:09:36getting lately, anyway, but actually it's starting to unravel, and I
0:09:36 > 0:09:41agree with what you said in the introduction, which is that the
0:09:41 > 0:09:46long-term ramifications of this budget, the OBR figures... If Labour
0:09:46 > 0:09:51can capitalise on that, it will pay offer them electorally. That is and
0:09:51 > 0:09:58if, though, and not inevitable. I don't think the IS figures on
0:09:58 > 0:10:02stagnating wages, missing the deficit target, terrible growth
0:10:02 > 0:10:06figures, these are the things that will determine politics in the next
0:10:06 > 0:10:11few years.These forecasts. We don't know what is going to happen. In the
0:10:11 > 0:10:17Sunday Times, lots of knives flying towards the Chancellor, and you turn
0:10:17 > 0:10:24over the page and he is deflecting them. What is the overall message?
0:10:24 > 0:10:27The big thing was the forecasts. I think Philip Hammond will have been
0:10:27 > 0:10:32relieved to have got through the day. That was the priority, not to
0:10:32 > 0:10:39mess it up. He lives to fight another day. From his point of view,
0:10:39 > 0:10:43and from the Conservative government's point of view, spending
0:10:43 > 0:10:47money on the health service and public sector pay politically is the
0:10:47 > 0:10:51wrong choice, because they need to show that the economy will grow
0:10:51 > 0:10:55under a Tory government. Any money they've got should be put into
0:10:55 > 0:11:01raising the growth potential of the economy, and hoping that by the time
0:11:01 > 0:11:05the next election comes round, the economy is picking up and that
0:11:05 > 0:11:12people have something to lose if they vote for Jeremy Corbyn.Rob,
0:11:12 > 0:11:16apart from your Vote Leave years, you were also special adviser to Sir
0:11:16 > 0:11:21Michael Fallon, who has now left the government. Can I ask you a bit, in
0:11:21 > 0:11:30personal terms, what it is like. He was a big political figure and is
0:11:30 > 0:11:35now on the backbenches. He did intervene a bit in the budget.It is
0:11:35 > 0:11:40a very sudden change. You go from being the Defence Secretary, making
0:11:40 > 0:11:45life and death decisions, and then suddenly it disappears. There has
0:11:45 > 0:11:48been a tendency recently for politicians to disappear off the
0:11:48 > 0:11:54second they have lost office. But what Sir Michael did in the budget
0:11:54 > 0:12:00debate was to make a case firstly about an important issue, employees'
0:12:00 > 0:12:05share ownership, and talk about how we make Brexit a success. What comes
0:12:05 > 0:12:10through from Tim Shipman's really good write-up of the budget is that
0:12:10 > 0:12:14it was quite a simplistic, straightforward budget. It was
0:12:14 > 0:12:18low-key, it wasn't aiming to do too much, expectations had been lowered
0:12:18 > 0:12:25very well and it was quite simple. One big issue that Tory MPs will be
0:12:25 > 0:12:29looking at is, yes we have got through a difficult period now, but
0:12:29 > 0:12:35what is going to change? What is going to make people under the age
0:12:35 > 0:12:40of 50 vote for Conservative's what can they offer? I think there is a
0:12:40 > 0:12:47lot to offer, but they will have to articulate the case.Ellie Mae
0:12:47 > 0:12:52O'Hagan, an interesting story in the Observer. This is momentum asking
0:12:52 > 0:12:58would-be MPs to sign up to their values if they want Momentum's
0:12:58 > 0:13:01support at the next election.I brought this up because I know that
0:13:01 > 0:13:06a lot of journalists watch your show. I wanted to give them friendly
0:13:06 > 0:13:13advice, which is, stop trying to make problems that are not there.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Millions of people voted for the Labour Party at the last election
0:13:16 > 0:13:23and a lot of people like the Labour Party. It is called Stalinist here.
0:13:23 > 0:13:27Stalin was a dictator who sent people to their death if they didn't
0:13:27 > 0:13:33do what he wanted. Getting MPs to sign a document which is essentially
0:13:33 > 0:13:39an ethics document, that everybody who joins Momentum pass to sign up
0:13:39 > 0:13:46to, is just a nonstory.Stalin would never have allowed that beard! But
0:13:46 > 0:13:52is it not the case that Momentum, the left of the party, are making
0:13:52 > 0:13:59very fast advances at the moment? The top three candidates in the NEC
0:13:59 > 0:14:05elections are Momentum.Maybe it would be better to spend more column
0:14:05 > 0:14:09inches wondering why the so-called moderates of the Labour Party are
0:14:09 > 0:14:14failing and why Corbyn is doing so well.Let's move to another leader.
0:14:14 > 0:14:19Very important what has happened in Germany, to Europe and Brexit.
0:14:19 > 0:14:25Angela Merkel looks like she is going to try to hold on.Indeed.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29There is talk of her either running a minority government or restoring a
0:14:29 > 0:14:34grand coalition with the Social Democrats. The Social Democrats are
0:14:34 > 0:14:41split down the middle on this one. Do they go into government and risk
0:14:41 > 0:14:44the possibility they are snuffed out during the course of the coalition?
0:14:44 > 0:14:53A domestic point of view, and having Angela Merkel in Powell, will be
0:14:53 > 0:14:58good for the Brexit negotiations. There is another foreign affairs and
0:14:58 > 0:15:12story which is terrible. This huge attack in Egypt on Suffi by Sunni
0:15:12 > 0:15:18Muslims.The gunmen were wrapped in the black flags of ISO. This is
0:15:18 > 0:15:25murderous and violent. The kind of death cult that is Islamic State.
0:15:25 > 0:15:31They seem to want to do barbaric violence and go to extremes. Britain
0:15:31 > 0:15:36is involved in a campaign against IS, we are winning in Iraq and
0:15:36 > 0:15:41Syria.Most of the extremist Islamist violence is killing other
0:15:41 > 0:15:45Muslims, we should remember. There is a real worry at the moment that
0:15:45 > 0:15:54we will be heading towards a Sunni Shia war.It is violence against a
0:15:54 > 0:16:00Muslim minority. We have seen violence against Coptic Christians.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04IS goes for minorities. I would suggest that the only real option
0:16:04 > 0:16:09for the evil of our time is the rightly targeted cruise missile,
0:16:09 > 0:16:24rather than a different campaign.
0:16:24 > 0:16:33Tell us a little bit about this, the Jezza annual.This is just a bit of
0:16:33 > 0:16:43fun, I'm going to get this for my mum.She knows what she's getting
0:16:43 > 0:16:49for Christmas now, you have spoiled it.Jeremy Corbyn had a very tough
0:16:49 > 0:16:55time in the media when he first became Labour leader and I think the
0:16:55 > 0:17:01sort of over the top phrase that his supporters give him is a sort of
0:17:01 > 0:17:07reaction. It is kind of like a Millwall fan thing, you all hate us
0:17:07 > 0:17:11and you don't care, a reaction to the way he has been treated in the
0:17:11 > 0:17:19media. This is clearly a joke and I'm going to be putting it in some
0:17:19 > 0:17:25people's stockings.I don't want to spoil it for your mum but there is a
0:17:25 > 0:17:31word search with the word proletariat.Amazing.
0:17:31 > 0:17:32And so to the weather.
0:17:32 > 0:17:33Bracing.
0:17:33 > 0:17:34Enlivening.
0:17:34 > 0:17:35Invigorating.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37Or, as some of you might put it, cold.
0:17:37 > 0:17:38But bright as well.
0:17:38 > 0:17:39Ben Rich has more details.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43Good morning, it is cold out there, there is something milder on the way
0:17:43 > 0:17:45but it hasn't arrived just yet.
0:17:45 > 0:17:46there is something milder on the way but it hasn't arrived just yet. It
0:17:46 > 0:17:51looked like this for one of our weather watchers in Dunbartonshire,
0:17:51 > 0:17:56but tonight the change. Some wet and windy weather and then it will turn
0:17:56 > 0:18:01milder but briefly is the operative word. Eastern areas largely dry with
0:18:01 > 0:18:06quite a lot of sunshine, showers fading in the west. Some wintry
0:18:06 > 0:18:11weather over hills in the north, then thickening cloud from Northern
0:18:11 > 0:18:17Ireland and temperatures just subtly beginning to move up by a degree or
0:18:17 > 0:18:22two from yesterday. In Scotland some hill snow, then this band of heavy
0:18:22 > 0:18:28rain sinks into the Midlands with some strong winds. We will see gales
0:18:28 > 0:18:33in places, but the south of the rainbow and we get the mild air, 12
0:18:33 > 0:18:38degrees in Plymouth but just three in Aberdeen and as we go through
0:18:38 > 0:18:43tomorrow it's a process of bringing that cold air south again. Then the
0:18:43 > 0:18:47skies will brighten with some sunshine, showers following on
0:18:47 > 0:18:52behind on a strong wind, gales in places. Wintry showers in the north,
0:18:52 > 0:18:57temperatures dipping away and the cold air will be with us for much of
0:18:57 > 0:18:58the week ahead.
0:18:58 > 0:18:58cold air will be with us for much of the week ahead.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02It really is winter, isn't it.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05In the early '80s, Benny and Bjorn from ABBA were looking
0:19:05 > 0:19:07for their next big project after the supergroup
0:19:07 > 0:19:08had called it a day.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Along came Tim Rice with a tale of how the Russians and Americans
0:19:11 > 0:19:12used chess champions as political pawns.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15So was born the Cold War musical "Chess" with hit songs
0:19:15 > 0:19:17like "I Know Him So Well".
0:19:17 > 0:19:20It returns to the London stage in spring for the first
0:19:20 > 0:19:21time in three decades.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24I caught up with Benny Andersson and Tim Rice, who told me how real
0:19:24 > 0:19:27events inspired Chess.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Well, I was trying to illustrate that anybody who becomes well-known
0:19:31 > 0:19:40in almost any field finds him or herself approached
0:19:40 > 0:19:43and used by politicians, particularly in the Chess world
0:19:43 > 0:19:45Bobby Fischer and Spassky, that great Chess tussle
0:19:45 > 0:19:51in Reykjavik in 1972, in which Fischer was meant
0:19:51 > 0:19:54to be "our guy" - which, indeed he was, in theory -
0:19:54 > 0:19:57but he was a nasty piece of work, and Spassky was the nasty
0:19:57 > 0:19:59chap from evil Russia, but he was actually a charming
0:19:59 > 0:20:02gentleman, so the whole story was fascinating and was quite a good
0:20:02 > 0:20:07inspiration for our show.
0:20:07 > 0:20:09And you originally wanted to write this with Andrew
0:20:09 > 0:20:10Lloyd Webber, and...
0:20:10 > 0:20:11Oh, no!
0:20:11 > 0:20:12He did!
0:20:12 > 0:20:13He did!
0:20:13 > 0:20:14Definitely he did.
0:20:14 > 0:20:15I did suggest the idea.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18Before I'd met Bjorn and Benny, I did suggest the idea to Andrew,
0:20:18 > 0:20:23but he was working on Cats, I think, or Phantom.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26He was intrigued, but not gripped, and to be honest, I did go to one
0:20:26 > 0:20:28or two other people, including the late, great,
0:20:28 > 0:20:31Marvin Hamlisch, but nobody really thought it was a good idea
0:20:31 > 0:20:35until I met Bjorn and Benny.
0:20:35 > 0:20:36You never said!
0:20:36 > 0:20:40We always thought we were your first choice.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42So you meet Bjorn and Benny, you go to Stockholm,
0:20:42 > 0:20:43and then to Moscow.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46Yes.
0:20:46 > 0:20:47Tim came to Stockholm.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50Bjorn and I had been thinking about this for quite a long time,
0:20:50 > 0:20:53actually, that we should try to write music for the theatre,
0:20:53 > 0:21:00and when Tim came along we said, Chess, that's a challenge.
0:21:00 > 0:21:01Nobody wants to see a musical about chess.
0:21:01 > 0:21:02Let's do that.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03# Wasn't it good?
0:21:03 > 0:21:04# So good
0:21:04 > 0:21:06# Wasn't he fine?
0:21:06 > 0:21:11# So fine
0:21:11 > 0:21:15# Isn't it madness he can't be mine?
0:21:15 > 0:21:18I had no idea that Bjorn and Benny, who were still huge...
0:21:18 > 0:21:23They are even huger today, that ABBA was still going strong.
0:21:23 > 0:21:29An American producer came to me in a hotel
0:21:29 > 0:21:32in New York, '81-ish, and said,
0:21:32 > 0:21:33"Have you heard of Arb-ba?"
0:21:33 > 0:21:34And I said, "No."
0:21:34 > 0:21:37I thought he was talking about some sort of tree.
0:21:37 > 0:21:40I was about to say, "I'm not really interested in horticulture..."
0:21:40 > 0:21:43and he said, "You know, Arb-ba - Waterloo, Fernando, Dancing Queen."
0:21:43 > 0:21:44I said, "Oh, ABBA!"
0:21:44 > 0:21:45And he said, "Yes."
0:21:45 > 0:21:47"Well, apparently they want to write a musical."
0:21:47 > 0:21:52And that was when I thought I would approach them.
0:21:52 > 0:21:54After asking Marvin Hamlisch!
0:21:54 > 0:21:57You yourself a big music fan, of course, right the way through.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59You were a big Arb-ba fan.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01What was the great secret of Arb-ba, do you think?
0:22:01 > 0:22:02Oh, gosh.
0:22:02 > 0:22:07Well, wonderful songs, which sounds obvious.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12I think it was great melodies, and very good presentation.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14# How could I ever refuse?
0:22:14 > 0:22:19# I feel like I win when I lose.
0:22:19 > 0:22:20# Waterloo
0:22:20 > 0:22:24# I was defeated, you won the war
0:22:24 > 0:22:26# Waterloo
0:22:26 > 0:22:32# Promise to love you forever more...
0:22:32 > 0:22:35They were just unlike anybody who came before.
0:22:35 > 0:22:36Benny, I want to ask you something.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39A lot of very, very serious, pompous rock and pop music
0:22:39 > 0:22:41going on at the time.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43People taking themselves terribly seriously, and you didn't
0:22:43 > 0:22:46seem to take yourselves quite so seriously.
0:22:46 > 0:22:51No, but I would say we treated our work seriously,
0:22:51 > 0:22:58and we spent as much time as we had available to us in the studio,
0:22:58 > 0:23:03trying to be good at what we were doing.
0:23:03 > 0:23:04# Money, money, money what we were doing.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06# Must be funny
0:23:06 > 0:23:10# In a rich man's world
0:23:10 > 0:23:12# Money, money, money
0:23:12 > 0:23:14# Always sunny
0:23:14 > 0:23:17# In a rich man's world.
0:23:17 > 0:23:23And some of the great bits from Chess, out of the ABBA
0:23:23 > 0:23:24songwriting experience directly, don't they?
0:23:24 > 0:23:26It all comes out from that.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28It's just taking it a step further.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32And what we did with Chess was that...
0:23:32 > 0:23:34Because Bjorn and I wanted to, sort of, I don't know,
0:23:34 > 0:23:38have a grip on what we were doing.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42So we said, let's do a record first, because that's our home territory
0:23:42 > 0:23:45and we know where we are, so let's do the recordings
0:23:45 > 0:23:52first before we try to go on to the West End, or whatever.
0:23:52 > 0:23:57So clearly, we're going through this extraordinary drama in Britain
0:23:57 > 0:23:59at the moment over Brexit.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01As a good Tory, Tim, you're the man to write
0:24:01 > 0:24:03Brexit: The Book, The Opera, and music by...
0:24:03 > 0:24:06It's a brilliant idea, isn't it?
0:24:06 > 0:24:08It's a brilliant idea, isn't it?
0:24:08 > 0:24:09Well...
0:24:09 > 0:24:13No, it's a terrible idea.
0:24:13 > 0:24:14All right.
0:24:14 > 0:24:15Yes!
0:24:15 > 0:24:16I don't know...
0:24:16 > 0:24:19I think we should wait and see what the end story
0:24:19 > 0:24:21is before anybody tackles it, but it's probably best,
0:24:21 > 0:24:24just as I think Chess would probably work better now,
0:24:24 > 0:24:27looking back on a period, I think maybe the great Brexit musical,
0:24:27 > 0:24:29which I won't be around to write, will be written
0:24:29 > 0:24:30in about 25 years' time.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32A sad but diplomatic answer!
0:24:32 > 0:24:33I still think...
0:24:33 > 0:24:37I keep saying that I want to see it happen before I comment on it.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39I mean, you're not out of there yet, are you?
0:24:39 > 0:24:41And we need you in there.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45Why?
0:24:45 > 0:24:49Because it's like, you have a friend and he says,
0:24:49 > 0:24:52well, I don't want to be friends with you any more.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54I want to be friends with everybody in Europe!
0:24:54 > 0:24:57Yeah, but now England says, we don't want to be friends with you,
0:24:57 > 0:24:59we want to be on our own.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02I think they're only saying, we don't want to be run by you.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04But still, I'll say, I'll wait to see it actually happening.
0:25:04 > 0:25:05Fair enough.Stay.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07Thank you very, very much.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10And the first major revival of "Chess" in 30 years will be
0:25:10 > 0:25:13at the London Coliseum from next April.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16Now coming up later this morning, Sarah Smith talks to the man
0:25:16 > 0:25:22who tried to topple Theresa May last month - Grant Shapps.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25And what did the Chancellor's Budget do for the north?
0:25:25 > 0:25:29She'll ask Greater Manchester Mayor, Andy Burnham.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32That's the Sunday Politics at 11 here on BBC One.
0:25:32 > 0:25:34We've had enough of experts, so Michael Gove famously told us
0:25:34 > 0:25:39during the referendum campaign.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41But in Budget week, we haven't.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, is the economist
0:25:43 > 0:25:46who's been marking the Government's card, and producing some chilling
0:25:46 > 0:25:47warnings about our economic future.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51He's here with me now.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55I mentioned those warnings at the top of the show, I said we are going
0:25:55 > 0:25:59to be poorer for longer than we expected but they are just
0:25:59 > 0:26:04forecasts, aren't they?Yes, but they are based on what's happening
0:26:04 > 0:26:08at the moment. Real earnings are falling now because inflation is
0:26:08 > 0:26:13higher following the loss in value of the pound. What the independent
0:26:13 > 0:26:17Office for Budget Responsibility have said is we look back over our
0:26:17 > 0:26:21forecasts in the last six or seven years, they have all been
0:26:21 > 0:26:26overoptimistic so it's time to start bringing them down. They will be
0:26:26 > 0:26:31wrong but there is likely to be too optimistic as they are too
0:26:31 > 0:26:35pessimistic.At this point you take a ruler and draw a line from where
0:26:35 > 0:26:41we are but we don't know what will happen after Brexit, so there's a
0:26:41 > 0:26:44range of possibilities. It could be much brighter than I suggested at
0:26:44 > 0:26:50the top of the show?There is huge uncertainty around this, it is
0:26:50 > 0:26:53probably the moment of greatest uncertainty that we know about at
0:26:53 > 0:26:56least that we have faced in a long time so it could be brighter but I
0:26:56 > 0:27:00think they have taken the middle part so it is just as likely to be
0:27:00 > 0:27:07even worse than they are suggesting. What would that feel like for us?At
0:27:07 > 0:27:12the moment it feels like what it has felt like for a long time, earnings
0:27:12 > 0:27:16are falling so people are feeling the squeeze. The worry innocence
0:27:16 > 0:27:26about the OBR's forecast is they just think that will continue
0:27:26 > 0:27:30broadening server burnings are no higher than in 2008 which is
0:27:30 > 0:27:35unprecedented.Can I ask about the Labour proposal but you can spend
0:27:35 > 0:27:40£250 billion over ten years and get that back in greater economic
0:27:40 > 0:27:44growth.The most important thing about investing is how you spend it
0:27:44 > 0:27:48so it is easy to talk about big numbers and actually to be fair to
0:27:48 > 0:27:53the current Chancellor he's increasing investment to its highest
0:27:53 > 0:27:58levels proportion of GDP that it has been in at least 40 years so the
0:27:58 > 0:28:03Conservatives are doing some of this. If you look back at the 1997
0:28:03 > 0:28:07Labour government they have big plans to increase investment. I was
0:28:07 > 0:28:11in the Treasury at the time and they literally couldn't get the money out
0:28:11 > 0:28:14of the door and that was on a smaller scale than being suggested
0:28:14 > 0:28:19at the moment. It's about making this useful investment, getting the
0:28:19 > 0:28:23money out of the door and getting value for money.When it comes to
0:28:23 > 0:28:27ambitious plans to renationalise swathes of the British economy, are
0:28:27 > 0:28:31there upfront costs in your view? That's a different kind of
0:28:31 > 0:28:36investment so if you are paying for an asset, what it's worth, the
0:28:36 > 0:28:40Government balance sheets doesn't change in reality although the
0:28:40 > 0:28:44financial numbers will change. The real issue here is do you really
0:28:44 > 0:28:48believe these things were work better in the public sector that
0:28:48 > 0:28:53that's worth doing? Because if you look over history, you can have an
0:28:53 > 0:28:57argument about this but it is not clear that the case.Stay there for
0:28:57 > 0:29:00now if you don't mind.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02Listening to that was Barry Gardiner, the Shadow Secretary
0:29:02 > 0:29:04for International Trade.
0:29:04 > 0:29:10In honest political terms, the Budget went quite well for the
0:29:10 > 0:29:13Chancellor, didn't it?It went well for him personally but this was the
0:29:13 > 0:29:20Budget that actually admitted failure and then said, "And we don't
0:29:20 > 0:29:25know what to do about failure". But if you look at the numbers going
0:29:25 > 0:29:31forward they have admitted growth is down by half a percent, productivity
0:29:31 > 0:29:38is down by 0.7% and investment is down by 1.5%. Instead of them
0:29:38 > 0:29:44saying, and this is our plan to get things back on the right track, they
0:29:44 > 0:29:49basically have tinkered with the economy. All the key things which at
0:29:49 > 0:29:53the general election they set out as the major challenges facing our
0:29:53 > 0:30:00country - look at social care for example, there was nothing in this
0:30:00 > 0:30:03Budget for social care.Their position is that there isn't a huge
0:30:03 > 0:30:09amount of money to tackle these in a big way. Your position is spend the
0:30:09 > 0:30:15money.Now, our position is grow the economy, Andrew. Just as in any
0:30:15 > 0:30:20business, if you are finding that you are running at a deficit, you
0:30:20 > 0:30:26have got two things to do. One is you can either cut your day to day
0:30:26 > 0:30:30spending, and we have said we will never borrow to fund day-to-day
0:30:30 > 0:30:35spending, but we have said we will borrow to invest to Grow the economy
0:30:35 > 0:30:43so that as a proportion of GDP, debt is reduced. That is the burden that
0:30:43 > 0:30:48economies face. It is actually whether the debt to GDP ratio is too
0:30:48 > 0:30:53large. At the moment it is, what the Chancellor said is I have no idea
0:30:53 > 0:30:58how to get that down.In that case, under Labour, when will the deficit
0:30:58 > 0:31:04be paid off?
0:31:04 > 0:31:10Wii has said, under Labour, within five years, that will come down. We
0:31:10 > 0:31:14will have the deficit reducing.When will it be eliminated by?
0:31:14 > 0:31:19Critically, we have said that we will be growing the economy so that
0:31:19 > 0:31:24debt is not the same burden on the economy that it is.Can you say when
0:31:24 > 0:31:31the deficit would be eliminated?I'm not going to say that at all.But
0:31:31 > 0:31:34you are attacking the government for not knowing whether the deficit will
0:31:34 > 0:31:41be eliminated.Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that. I could
0:31:41 > 0:31:48have quoted the then Chancellor, George Osborne, on the 15th of July
0:31:48 > 0:31:542015, when he said that by 2015, it would be eliminated, and year on
0:31:54 > 0:31:59year, the deficit would be reduced. The debt as a proportion of GDP
0:31:59 > 0:32:06would be reduced.We are now being told that by 2031 it will be
0:32:06 > 0:32:11eliminated. Is that the same under Labour?You have deterred one of our
0:32:11 > 0:32:15most eminent economists telling you that we have drawn a line and it
0:32:15 > 0:32:20could be on either side of it. Anybody who wants to forecast what
0:32:20 > 0:32:27our economy is going to be like in 2031 here, 14 or 15 years ahead of
0:32:27 > 0:32:31that date, when we have not even determined what the Brexit
0:32:31 > 0:32:35negotiations are going to look like, would be foolish, and you know that
0:32:35 > 0:32:41as well as I do.You mention the Brexit negotiations. Let me turn to
0:32:41 > 0:32:47the Irish border question. We have to propositions on the table, one is
0:32:47 > 0:32:51the Irish government's proposal, which is that Northern Ireland
0:32:51 > 0:32:56should be inside some sort of customs union and single market, and
0:32:56 > 0:33:00in those circumstances, there does not have to be a border between
0:33:00 > 0:33:03Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland. Then there is the
0:33:03 > 0:33:07government and Nigel Dodds saying that it is important that Northern
0:33:07 > 0:33:11Ireland comes out of the customs union and the single market with the
0:33:11 > 0:33:16rest of us. Which side are you on? What this government has done is it
0:33:16 > 0:33:21hasn't ruled out remaining a member of the single market or a member of
0:33:21 > 0:33:25the customs union. That is what they have said very clearly. They are
0:33:25 > 0:33:30going to leave both of those institutions. We have not ruled
0:33:30 > 0:33:35those of the table. We recognise the benefits both of the single market
0:33:35 > 0:33:40and of a customs union. Once we leave the EU, we cannot be in the
0:33:40 > 0:33:48customs union that we had, but with a customs union, we recognise the
0:33:48 > 0:33:51benefits of that, which is why we have left those options on the
0:33:51 > 0:33:58table. Unfortunately, we are not at the negotiating table with the
0:33:58 > 0:34:01European Union conducting those negotiations.No, you are not, but
0:34:01 > 0:34:05there is only two weeks before this has to be resolved. In the context
0:34:05 > 0:34:14of their being a fortnight left, what your options should be, and
0:34:14 > 0:34:20what you think should happen?You think it is fair to ask this.I do.
0:34:20 > 0:34:25We are not the government. All we can do is to mitigate the damage
0:34:25 > 0:34:30that this government is doing. They have been absolutely chaotic in
0:34:30 > 0:34:34their negotiations.It is an agonisingly difficult choice, but it
0:34:34 > 0:34:40is one you are not prepared to make. It is not our call, and it would be
0:34:40 > 0:34:44foolish of an opposition to actually put out there and say, this is the
0:34:44 > 0:34:50solution, when we are not in the negotiations themselves. If we are
0:34:50 > 0:34:55at the negotiating table, we can have those discussions. If Theresa
0:34:55 > 0:35:00May wanted to move over and call that election, let us do that. Until
0:35:00 > 0:35:05we are around that table, it's not sensible to say what you can get out
0:35:05 > 0:35:14of the negotiations, because you are not sitting opposite someone trying
0:35:14 > 0:35:20to get a deal.We have to weeks to go. What happens if we don't get
0:35:20 > 0:35:23agreement in those next two weeks? What happens in the House of
0:35:23 > 0:35:30Commons?The Irish government are desperately worried about this. We
0:35:30 > 0:35:34all are. They in particular are worried because their economic
0:35:34 > 0:35:39growth depends on the trade relations that they have with the
0:35:39 > 0:35:45UK. It used to be much larger, but now it's about 17% still. It's a
0:35:45 > 0:35:50huge slice of the economy. So they are determined not to see a hard
0:35:50 > 0:35:54border, but there are politics playing into this, and we must
0:35:54 > 0:35:59ensure that nothing is done that damages the Good Friday Agreement.
0:35:59 > 0:36:03To me, that's the bottom line, and everybody should keep that in mind.
0:36:03 > 0:36:06Thank you for coming to talk to us.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09We'll speak in a moment to Ruth Davidson, but before we do -
0:36:09 > 0:36:14Paul Johnson - another couple of points.
0:36:14 > 0:36:21We were talking about the target for paying off the deficit. It was going
0:36:21 > 0:36:27to be 2015, now it's 2031. How big this is that?Back in 2015, George
0:36:27 > 0:36:35Osborne had a target to borrow only to invest by 2015. He missed that
0:36:35 > 0:36:40target by some way because the economy was growing. It's not
0:36:40 > 0:36:44because there wasn't enough austerity. It's because the economy
0:36:44 > 0:36:49was growing. Borrowing is now down to where it was pre-recession. It's
0:36:49 > 0:36:56come down from the highest level by far since the last war in 2009,
0:36:56 > 0:37:032010, to a more reasonable level. The worry is, in a sense, is that
0:37:03 > 0:37:08debt at about 90% of national income, is a very high-level.We
0:37:08 > 0:37:13were always told that 90% was intolerable, and now we are just
0:37:13 > 0:37:18underneath it. How much are we paying in debt interest?Remarkably,
0:37:18 > 0:37:24not more than we were ten years ago, because interest rates are so low.
0:37:24 > 0:37:28It is very cheap to borrow and the drag on the economy at the moment is
0:37:28 > 0:37:33minimal because of those very low interest rates. We don't know at
0:37:33 > 0:37:38what point debt becomes a problem. At the moment, we are managing it
0:37:38 > 0:37:43fine. The worry is, particularly with slow growth forecasts, that
0:37:43 > 0:37:48that debt is not going to come down at all fast. With the uncertainty we
0:37:48 > 0:37:53have around politics and Brexit, it may not be possible to borrow that
0:37:53 > 0:37:58cheaply forever.What does slow growth mean for earnings?Earnings
0:37:58 > 0:38:05are not rising at the moment. They are falling. By 2020, they will
0:38:05 > 0:38:10probably be lower than they were in 2008, which is historically
0:38:10 > 0:38:15unprecedented, and that is making people uncomfortable. With growth,
0:38:15 > 0:38:22it is income that matter.On that subject, I am joined by Ruth
0:38:22 > 0:38:27Davidson. The government has missed its target on the deficit and debt.
0:38:27 > 0:38:32This is a picture of economic failure, isn't it?You have just
0:38:32 > 0:38:35heard from Paul Johnson that debt interest is not higher than it was
0:38:35 > 0:38:40and we've brought borrowing down to its highest levels in decades from
0:38:40 > 0:38:45its highest levels post war. We are two thirds of the way to cutting the
0:38:45 > 0:38:51deficit. One of the underlying issues we have with growth in this
0:38:51 > 0:38:56country is productivity, and this budget has sought to address that.
0:38:56 > 0:39:01In 2010, we were promised by your party that the deficit would be
0:39:01 > 0:39:03eliminated in 2015. Can you remind us when the deficit will be
0:39:03 > 0:39:09eliminated?We are more than two thirds of the way through that
0:39:09 > 0:39:14process, not just because of the hard work of the government, but the
0:39:14 > 0:39:18hard work of everybody in this country. We are trying to ensure we
0:39:18 > 0:39:22have a balanced economy, so we can't be criticised for cutting too much
0:39:22 > 0:39:26on the one hand but not bringing down borrowing on the other. It is
0:39:26 > 0:39:32about trying to find that balanced way forward.You didn't answer my
0:39:32 > 0:39:46question. On current figures, the answer is by 2031. That is 16 years
0:39:46 > 0:39:48of extra indebtedness. A toddler watching this programme will be a
0:39:48 > 0:39:51voter... They will be struggling with the remote control, trying to
0:39:51 > 0:39:57turn over to CBBC. They will be a voter in the election before this
0:39:57 > 0:40:02deficit is sorted. That is a massive failure by your government.The
0:40:02 > 0:40:07deficit was run out before we came to office. As your previous
0:40:07 > 0:40:13independent adviser has said, we have been bringing it down at a time
0:40:13 > 0:40:17of low interest rates. The debt interest is not higher than it was
0:40:17 > 0:40:22ten years ago. We are making sure we are building for the long-term, so
0:40:22 > 0:40:26we have investment in infrastructure and productivity. We are making sure
0:40:26 > 0:40:31we have the housing we need, the investment in skills we need. These
0:40:31 > 0:40:37will carry us forward.A couple of years ago, you said that by 2020 we
0:40:37 > 0:40:49would be in surplus. There is going to be a £35 billion deficit then.
0:40:49 > 0:40:51That is a terrible failure.We are bringing down the deficit we
0:40:51 > 0:40:54inherited in a stable way. Barry Gardiner just gave an extraordinary
0:40:54 > 0:40:57interview, when he said the Chancellor had had a very good
0:40:57 > 0:41:03budget and he couldn't tell you what Labour's plans were on the economy
0:41:03 > 0:41:06on... Or Brexit. We inherited a mess from a government who didn't know
0:41:06 > 0:41:11what they were doing and we have been sustainably bringing it down
0:41:11 > 0:41:20over time. We have got over the hump of the debt to GDP ratio this year.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23We are the second fastest growing economy of major developed countries
0:41:23 > 0:41:28last year. We are investing in our indeed, infrastructure and skills so
0:41:28 > 0:41:33that we can have sustained growth. I'm delighted that you are going to
0:41:33 > 0:41:37answer some of my questions on Brexit. Philip Hammond said in his
0:41:37 > 0:41:45first budget that it was a privilege to report on an economy that was
0:41:45 > 0:41:48predicted to be the fastest-growing major economy this year. Where are
0:41:48 > 0:41:57we now?We have seen that those have been revised downwards, which is
0:41:57 > 0:42:00disappointing, but we have consistently broken some of the
0:42:00 > 0:42:06forecasts of the future.We are right at the bottom, with Portugal.
0:42:06 > 0:42:13The last year we had actual numbers, not just forecasts, for last year,
0:42:13 > 0:42:172016, we were the second fastest-growing major developed
0:42:17 > 0:42:23economy in the world.You used the word productivity earlier on.
0:42:23 > 0:42:29Productivity has been a problem in this economy for a very long time.
0:42:29 > 0:42:33In every budget between 2010 and 2015, the word wasn't even
0:42:33 > 0:42:39mentioned. Haven't the Conservatives been asleep at the wheel in terms of
0:42:39 > 0:42:42getting productivity up again?I don't think you saw Alistair Brown
0:42:42 > 0:42:50or Gordon -- Alistair Darling or Gordon Brown mentioning this. Philip
0:42:50 > 0:42:58Hammond has talked about looking at skills training in his budget.
0:42:58 > 0:43:02Technical education, infrastructure, so that we are able to support
0:43:02 > 0:43:07businesses and growth, to invest in research and development, so we can
0:43:07 > 0:43:12solve the productivity crisis. And long-term investment... Paul
0:43:12 > 0:43:19Johnson, your IS contributor a few moments ago, let me just say this,
0:43:19 > 0:43:24because it's quite important. He said we were headed for 2.4% of our
0:43:24 > 0:43:28GDP to be put into long-term investment. That is the highest
0:43:28 > 0:43:35level for 40 years. He said it was remarkable at a time where there has
0:43:35 > 0:43:39been great restrictions on the budget, which shows there is a real
0:43:39 > 0:43:44commitment to building Britain's future going forward.Lots of big,
0:43:44 > 0:43:49abstract words, like productivity and investment. You made your point
0:43:49 > 0:43:55that yourself. Real wages. People going out and working their socks
0:43:55 > 0:44:02off every day. Real wages are going to carry on falling until 2025. That
0:44:02 > 0:44:08surely changes the entire political context of this country.We have
0:44:08 > 0:44:12been making sure that people on the lowest wages have had the biggest
0:44:12 > 0:44:16wages, which is why there have been rises in the national minimum wage
0:44:16 > 0:44:21and the National Living Wage. We have raised the threshold at which
0:44:21 > 0:44:25you start paying tax. Somebody who works full-time on the National
0:44:25 > 0:44:32Living Wage is now £2000 a year better off than they were in 2010.
0:44:32 > 0:44:37That is a real difference, 7% above the way in which inflation has been
0:44:37 > 0:44:42rising. People on lower incomes have had the better time. I know it's
0:44:42 > 0:44:47tough.And it's going to be tough for a very long time.That is why we
0:44:47 > 0:44:51are doing more in terms of making sure the wage themselves rise, and
0:44:51 > 0:44:58taking back less in tax.Turning to Brexit. There is now a very clear
0:44:58 > 0:45:01choice in front of the country, a kind of existential choice. The
0:45:01 > 0:45:09Irish EU Commissioner, the Taoiseach himself, has said they want in
0:45:09 > 0:45:12writing an agreement that Northern Ireland will be part of a single
0:45:12 > 0:45:16market or customs union arrangements so that there doesn't have to be a
0:45:16 > 0:45:21hard border between northern and southern Ireland. On the other hand,
0:45:21 > 0:45:24the DUP has made absolutely clear that they will not put up with that.
0:45:24 > 0:45:35We know that you are a Unionist, so what is your view of the situation?
0:45:35 > 0:45:40I think it is a false dichotomy. The Prime Minister has made it clear she
0:45:40 > 0:45:50doesn't want physical infrastructure on the border. Nor should we see
0:45:50 > 0:45:54anything that impacts on the territorial integrity of the UK.I'm
0:45:54 > 0:46:00going to jump into that and ask you for a solution. It's not. Dichotomy,
0:46:00 > 0:46:03if Northern Ireland is in one situation with the customs union and
0:46:03 > 0:46:07the single market and the self is still part of those things, there
0:46:07 > 0:46:11has to be some kind of order and nobody has explained how that will
0:46:11 > 0:46:15be avoided so it is not a false dichotomy, it is a real hard choice
0:46:15 > 0:46:23that has to be made by the Government. Which side are you on?
0:46:23 > 0:46:26As you say, we have two weeks in which it will get pretty tough in
0:46:26 > 0:46:30that negotiating room. It doesn't require commentators from outside
0:46:30 > 0:46:34government like myself to try to commit the UK governments to one way
0:46:34 > 0:46:38or another and I'm not going to do that on your programme.If I may say
0:46:38 > 0:46:45so, you are doing a Barry Gardiner! I've had plenty of insults thrown at
0:46:45 > 0:46:51me before but I'm not sure that one will stick. I'm not sure me and
0:46:51 > 0:46:55Barry are from the same political tribe.He was dodging this question
0:46:55 > 0:47:01and you are dodging it too.We know this is one of the difficult bits of
0:47:01 > 0:47:06the negotiation and we understand that, but what we are proposing to
0:47:06 > 0:47:09the European Union is that we don't have to have an off-the-shelf
0:47:09 > 0:47:13solution because we are different case to any other country that
0:47:13 > 0:47:18interacts with the EU. We are not Canada, not Norway, because we are
0:47:18 > 0:47:23the only country that has previously been part of the European Union,
0:47:23 > 0:47:29that complies with every rule and regulation that will then sit
0:47:29 > 0:47:35outside of it. I know from ten years as a reporter before I was elected,
0:47:35 > 0:47:40and you know from 30-something years from reporting on negotiations that
0:47:40 > 0:47:44people who walk up to their microphones don't always reflect the
0:47:44 > 0:47:49progress going on in the room. When it comes to European negotiations it
0:47:49 > 0:47:53is always a five past midnight job so don't think that just because you
0:47:53 > 0:47:57have members of the European Commission who have a position to
0:47:57 > 0:48:02defend, and I understand that, that when you walk up to a microphone and
0:48:02 > 0:48:06they are speaking to a home audience that that necessarily reflect the
0:48:06 > 0:48:14progress going on in the room.And if we don't get it resolved in two
0:48:14 > 0:48:18weeks, how serious is that for the entire Brexit negotiations? Do we
0:48:18 > 0:48:25need to get onto the trade talks?I think it's really important we get
0:48:25 > 0:48:28the transitional deal nailed down for businesses so they know what
0:48:28 > 0:48:32they are doing next year and they are able to plan, but I do
0:48:32 > 0:48:37understand that if we don't make it through in the next two weeks onto
0:48:37 > 0:48:41that phase, we will rapidly run out of time in terms of getting us into
0:48:41 > 0:48:45a good position by the time that transitional deal is supposed to
0:48:45 > 0:48:51take place.So this is quite a hard deadline in your view?It is hard in
0:48:51 > 0:48:54the sense that it constricts the amount of time we have got to do
0:48:54 > 0:48:59things if we don't make it into the next phase. I don't think it means
0:48:59 > 0:49:05the world has ended but it is a setback.Ruth Davidson, thank you
0:49:05 > 0:49:09for talking to us today.Thank you.
0:49:09 > 0:49:10I'm feeling very old.
0:49:10 > 0:49:13It's ten years since I interviewed the Archbishop of York,
0:49:13 > 0:49:14John Sentamu, about Robert Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe
0:49:14 > 0:49:16when this happened.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19People there are starving, a lot of people are traumatised.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22You know, as an African, as an Anglican this is
0:49:22 > 0:49:24what I wear to identify myself, that I'm a clergyman.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26Do you know what Mugabe has done?
0:49:26 > 0:49:28He's taken people's identity and literally, if you don't
0:49:28 > 0:49:30mind, cut it to pieces.
0:49:30 > 0:49:33This is what he's actually done, and in the end
0:49:33 > 0:49:33there's nothing.
0:49:33 > 0:49:36So as far as I'm concerned, from now on I'm not going
0:49:36 > 0:49:39to wear a dog collar until Mugabe has gone.
0:49:39 > 0:49:40My goodness.
0:49:40 > 0:49:41Archbishop, that is a dramatic gesture and
0:49:41 > 0:49:43everybody will observe it.
0:49:43 > 0:49:45Thank you very much indeed for coming in.
0:49:45 > 0:49:47Thank you, Andrew, and keep my pieces by the way.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50Collect them until the day when Zimbabwe is free.
0:49:50 > 0:49:53And then we will give you them back.
0:49:53 > 0:49:55Well, now Mugabe has gone, is it time for the Archbishop
0:49:55 > 0:49:57to put his dog collar back on?
0:49:57 > 0:50:00I sat down with him yesterday, and he began by telling me
0:50:00 > 0:50:03about something that happened to him in the days leading up
0:50:03 > 0:50:08to Mugabe's resignation.
0:50:08 > 0:50:10I hadn't been able to sleep and suddenly Zimbabwe
0:50:10 > 0:50:12were very, very strong in my mind.
0:50:12 > 0:50:15And I said, "Lord, it's been going on for a long
0:50:15 > 0:50:16time, how does this end?"
0:50:16 > 0:50:21And then I almost hear a little voice saying, "Light a candle.
0:50:21 > 0:50:27At the end when it burns out will be the beginning of the end
0:50:27 > 0:50:29of the government of Robert Mugabe."
0:50:29 > 0:50:33I lit the candle, told my wife, and it started burning.
0:50:33 > 0:50:36It went out on the 14th of November.
0:50:36 > 0:50:39Very interesting.
0:50:39 > 0:50:42And then I heard another voice - "Light another, and when it goes
0:50:42 > 0:50:44out, Mugabe will be gone."
0:50:44 > 0:50:48And that one ran out on the 21st.
0:50:48 > 0:50:53What did it mean to you yourself not to have a collar on all that period?
0:50:53 > 0:50:58When I wake up or dress up and I'm getting out of the house,
0:50:58 > 0:51:04normally I tie the top button and then put on my collar.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07But for nearly ten years, I haven't been able to put
0:51:07 > 0:51:12on my collar back really, and it has meant I remember Zimbabwe.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17So every morning you're thinking Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe.
0:51:17 > 0:51:19Yeah.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22And you said to me back then, you said, "Here are the bits
0:51:22 > 0:51:23of my collar, keep them for me."
0:51:23 > 0:51:26Nearly ten years on, I have got them for you.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28They have been sitting in my desk.
0:51:28 > 0:51:29They are in a slightly crumpled old envelope
0:51:29 > 0:51:32but here they all are and I said I'd give them back,
0:51:32 > 0:51:34and so I give them back.
0:51:34 > 0:51:35Thank you.
0:51:35 > 0:51:38There they go, I don't know if you can pull them out there.
0:51:38 > 0:51:39Yes.
0:51:39 > 0:51:40They're all in here?
0:51:40 > 0:51:41They are all there, yes.
0:51:41 > 0:51:44You have been a very faithful friend, you have kept them.
0:51:44 > 0:51:45That's lovely, and they're all here.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48Do you know, Andrew, I could attempt to put this one back
0:51:48 > 0:51:53or I could try and put them all together using superglue.
0:51:53 > 0:51:55It would be a pretty ropey collar, Archbishop.
0:51:55 > 0:51:57Ropey collar.
0:51:57 > 0:52:01And I actually think the lesson for Zimbabwe is the same.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03They just can't try and stitch it up.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06Something more radical, something new needs to happen
0:52:06 > 0:52:11in terms of the rule of law, you know, allowing people
0:52:11 > 0:52:14to get jobs because 90% of people aren't at work.
0:52:14 > 0:52:20So they can't just stitch it up, I need a new collar.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23So, here is the million dollar question - are you going to put
0:52:23 > 0:52:25a collar back on again now, Archbishop?
0:52:25 > 0:52:29Andrew, I promised that when Mugabe goes, I put my collar on,
0:52:29 > 0:52:32so I have no choice but to put it back on.
0:52:32 > 0:52:33To keep your promise.
0:52:33 > 0:52:34Absolutely.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37Mugabe has gone, but the new president has got to remember
0:52:37 > 0:52:43something more new than simply stitching up a thing.
0:52:43 > 0:52:45Archbishop, you are looking as you should - congratulations,
0:52:45 > 0:52:49but is Zimbabwe as it should be?
0:52:49 > 0:52:52We've got a new president coming in, Emmerson Mnangagwa.
0:52:52 > 0:52:54He was one of the hench people of Mugabe.
0:52:54 > 0:52:56He is called "the crocodile".
0:52:56 > 0:53:03Are you convinced that real change is happening?
0:53:03 > 0:53:06Well, I mean he's implicated into a lot of other stuff.
0:53:06 > 0:53:08He's been denying, for example, the Gukurahundi, the massacre
0:53:08 > 0:53:09in Matabeleland and Manicaland.
0:53:09 > 0:53:11He was heavily involved in that massacre.
0:53:11 > 0:53:17Well, he was the Minister, the Minister of security
0:53:17 > 0:53:22and also he was in charge of the Central Intelligence Organisation.
0:53:22 > 0:53:25The answer for me and for him is not simply what he said,
0:53:25 > 0:53:28"let bygones be bygones," because people in Matabeleland
0:53:28 > 0:53:33and Manicaland, who lost nearly 20,000 people,
0:53:33 > 0:53:34it's as if it happened yesterday.
0:53:34 > 0:53:39So somehow he's got to find a way of sorting it out.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42Now, who am I to advise him?
0:53:42 > 0:53:46But all I would say, he needs similar to what South Africa did.
0:53:46 > 0:53:48A truth, justice and reconciliation commission to look
0:53:48 > 0:53:51into it so that this doesn't hang over him like a big cloud.
0:53:51 > 0:53:52Now, I'm a man of faith.
0:53:52 > 0:53:55I am a strong believer in hope and therefore a strong
0:53:55 > 0:53:56believer people can change.
0:53:56 > 0:54:00It's quite possible that, you know, Emmerson Mnangagwa could actually be
0:54:00 > 0:54:03a very good president, but he can't simply bury the past.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06It won't go away.
0:54:06 > 0:54:09As you say, you are man of faith.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11Robert Mugabe himself said, "Nobody can remove me
0:54:11 > 0:54:13from office but God."
0:54:13 > 0:54:15Now he's been removed from office, and I wonder,
0:54:15 > 0:54:19is it possible to forgive him?
0:54:19 > 0:54:22You used to say he should go to The Hague and face international
0:54:22 > 0:54:24court for his crimes against people of Zimbabwe.
0:54:24 > 0:54:27Now he has gone and there seems to be a new mood.
0:54:27 > 0:54:34Even Morgan Tsvangirai saying, "Let the old man be in peace."
0:54:34 > 0:54:36Do you think he should be forgiven?
0:54:36 > 0:54:38It's not for me, he never killed any of my relations.
0:54:38 > 0:54:42At the time, the crimes were so raw and so important but what happened
0:54:42 > 0:54:44to South Africa with the truth and reconciliation commission,
0:54:44 > 0:54:47people were able to say "we are sorry we did this,"
0:54:47 > 0:54:51and Mugabe at some point needs to say to the people of Zimbabwe,
0:54:51 > 0:54:54"37 years, I took on a country which was fantastic
0:54:54 > 0:54:57and nearly took it to ruin.
0:54:57 > 0:55:00Zimbabweans, forgive me."
0:55:00 > 0:55:03You want him to reflect, look in the mirror, and apologise?
0:55:03 > 0:55:07Yes, because he's a very, very intelligent man.
0:55:07 > 0:55:11And actually I think he's capable of doing it.
0:55:11 > 0:55:15You heard him say, "we must learn to forgive" but how can people
0:55:15 > 0:55:19forgive you if you don't admit that was your plan?
0:55:19 > 0:55:26So he needs to do the second bit, having asked and done not rather
0:55:26 > 0:55:29So he needs to do the second bit, having asked and done that rather
0:55:29 > 0:55:32rambling speech a few days ago - "Zimbabweans, we must
0:55:32 > 0:55:33all learn to forgive."
0:55:33 > 0:55:34OK fine, Mr former president.
0:55:34 > 0:55:37Can you listen to the things you have done wrong to us
0:55:37 > 0:55:38and ask us for forgiveness?
0:55:38 > 0:55:40And I'm quite sure Zimbabweans probably would do.
0:55:40 > 0:55:42Cutting up that dog collar was a very dramatic moment.
0:55:42 > 0:55:44It made me completely speechless on television.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46Not for the first time, but I was dumbfounded
0:55:46 > 0:55:48and I didn't know what to say.
0:55:48 > 0:55:49Did it actually change anything though?
0:55:49 > 0:55:52I think what it did is that the Christians
0:55:52 > 0:55:56were galvanised to be praying for Zimbabwe.
0:55:56 > 0:55:59People realised that some change needs to happen.
0:55:59 > 0:56:02But hope can take a long time, and a friend of mine has said that
0:56:02 > 0:56:05hope is believing in spite of the evidence and then watching
0:56:05 > 0:56:08the evidence change.
0:56:08 > 0:56:10We have just watched that evidence change.
0:56:10 > 0:56:12Archbishop, thanks very much indeed for talking to us.
0:56:12 > 0:56:14Thank you, thank you, thank you, Andrew.
0:56:14 > 0:56:15Nice to see you again.
0:56:15 > 0:56:22Nice to see you again as well.
0:56:22 > 0:56:23That's nearly all for this week.
0:56:23 > 0:56:26Next Sunday my guests will include the actor Matt Smith,
0:56:26 > 0:56:28on the strange affinity between Doctor Who and
0:56:28 > 0:56:29the Duke of Edinburgh.
0:56:29 > 0:56:31We leave you now with music from Jools Holland,
0:56:31 > 0:56:32Ruby Turner and Jose Feliciano.
0:56:32 > 0:56:34From their new album 'As You See Me Now',
0:56:34 > 0:56:37here is something I can almost guarantee you'll like -
0:56:37 > 0:56:38'Hit The Road Jack'.
0:56:38 > 0:56:41Take it away.
0:56:51 > 0:56:54# Woah woman, oh woman, don't treat me so mean.
0:56:54 > 0:56:56# You're the meanest old woman that I've ever seen.
0:56:56 > 0:56:58# I guess if you said so.
0:56:58 > 0:57:00# I'd have to pack my things and go.
0:57:00 > 0:57:02# That's right # Hit the road Jack and don't
0:57:02 > 0:57:05you come back no more, no more, no more, no more.
0:57:05 > 0:57:08# Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more.
0:57:08 > 0:57:13# What you say?
0:57:13 > 0:57:15# Now baby, listen baby, don't ya treat me this-a way.
0:57:15 > 0:57:18# Cos I'll be back on my feet some day.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20# Don't care if you do cos it's understood
0:57:20 > 0:57:23# You ain't got no money you just ain't no good.
0:57:23 > 0:57:25# Well, I guess if you say so.
0:57:25 > 0:57:27# I'd have to pack my things and go.
0:57:27 > 0:57:28# That's right
0:57:28 > 0:57:29# Hit the road Jack and don't
0:57:29 > 0:57:32you come back no more, no more, no more, no more.
0:57:32 > 0:57:37# Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39# What you say?
0:58:25 > 0:58:28# Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more,
0:58:28 > 0:58:29no more, no more, no more.
0:58:29 > 0:58:37# Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more.
0:58:37 > 0:58:40# Uh, what you say?
0:58:40 > 0:58:43# Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more,
0:58:43 > 0:58:44no more, no more, no more.
0:58:44 > 0:58:47# Hit the road Jack and don't you come back no more.
0:58:47 > 0:58:51# Well # Don't you come back no more.
0:58:51 > 0:58:52# You can't mean that.
0:58:52 > 0:58:56# Don't you come back no more.
0:58:56 > 0:58:57# Oh, now baby, please.
0:58:57 > 0:58:59# Don't you come back no more.
0:58:59 > 0:59:01# What you tryin' to do to me?
0:59:01 > 0:59:06# Don't you come back no more.
0:59:06 > 0:59:08# Don't you come back no more.
0:59:08 > 0:59:14# Don't you come back no more.