0:00:07 > 0:00:09Good morning.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10This week, Europe's most powerful single leader,
0:00:10 > 0:00:12and one of the world's more glamorous presidents,
0:00:12 > 0:00:14swept into Britain.
0:00:14 > 0:00:16He came bearing a gift, or at least a generous loan,
0:00:16 > 0:00:18of the Bayeux Tapestry.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20It tells, of course, the story of a charismatic French
0:00:20 > 0:00:22leader sweeping into Britain and giving the British
0:00:22 > 0:00:27leader one in the eye.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29Not really even a coded message really, was it?
0:00:29 > 0:00:32And we have the exclusive interview.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49We'll be hearing more from Emmanuel Macron -
0:00:49 > 0:00:51his thoughts on Britain's possible Brexit deal and the awkward reality
0:00:51 > 0:00:55of dealing with Donald Trump.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Here, it's been a week dominated by the aftermath
0:00:58 > 0:01:00of the Carillion collapse and serious questions over the use
0:01:00 > 0:01:04of private finance by the state.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, joins me to talk
0:01:06 > 0:01:08about what Labour thinks is a watershed moment
0:01:08 > 0:01:11in our politics.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18I'll also be talking to one of Britain's most
0:01:18 > 0:01:20successful female journalists.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Tina Brown spent the wild 1980s rubbing shoulders
0:01:22 > 0:01:27with the likes of Donald Trump and found herself working
0:01:27 > 0:01:28uncomfortably closely with one Harvey Weinstein.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32She has some stories to tell.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34And reviewing the news, covering that Carillion
0:01:34 > 0:01:35collapse of course, James Cleverly,
0:01:35 > 0:01:38the new Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40And in the week The Guardian relaunched itself as a tabloid,
0:01:40 > 0:01:45the paper's first female editor, Kath Viner.
0:01:45 > 0:01:50But first the news with Babita Sharma.
0:01:50 > 0:01:57Andrew, thank you, good morning. Afghan security forces have taken
0:01:57 > 0:02:01control of a luxury hotel in Kabul. Battles raged through the night as
0:02:01 > 0:02:07special forces troops fought against the government as they moved around
0:02:07 > 0:02:09the Intercontinental are told. Five civilians and three militants
0:02:09 > 0:02:14killed, more than 150 guests and staff rescued including 41
0:02:14 > 0:02:19foreigners. The government will stop workers' pensions being put at risk
0:02:19 > 0:02:22from executives who try to line their own pockets, the Prime
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Minister has said. Writing in the Observer newspaper Theresa May said
0:02:25 > 0:02:29a government White Paper would set out tough new rules for company
0:02:29 > 0:02:32bosses. It comes as construction firm Carillion's collapse could
0:02:32 > 0:02:37leave a pension scheme deficit of £900 million potentially affecting
0:02:37 > 0:02:3927,500 workers.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42The Ukip leader, Henry Bolton, will fight for his job today
0:02:42 > 0:02:44when the party's national executive committee holds
0:02:44 > 0:02:48an emergency meeting.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Mr Bolton has been under pressure to step down since it emerged
0:02:51 > 0:02:53that his former girlfriend, Jo Marney, had made racist comments
0:02:53 > 0:02:56about Prince Harry's fiancee, Meghan Markle.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00People with hidden disabilities such as autism and dementia could soon
0:03:00 > 0:03:02qualify for blue badge permits in England, entitling
0:03:02 > 0:03:04them to free parking.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06The Department for Transport is beginning a public
0:03:06 > 0:03:07consultation on the proposal.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10It says it would make it easier for people to travel to work,
0:03:10 > 0:03:15socialise and shop.
0:03:15 > 0:03:16That's all from me.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20The next news on BBC One is at 1pm. Back to you, Andrew.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22Many thanks for that.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Now to the papers.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29Not all of them looking entirely familiar, that is the new Observer
0:03:29 > 0:03:33with an interview with Theresa May saying she will find greedy bosses
0:03:33 > 0:03:40who betray their workers by failing to pay into pension pots, and in the
0:03:40 > 0:03:43Sunday Times, Corbyn allies plot to oust 50 Labour MPs, which we will
0:03:43 > 0:03:48talk more about. Sunday Telegraph, we should welcome Trump visit, says
0:03:48 > 0:03:53Boris. There is lots of Boris on the papers today, I wonder why. Sunday
0:03:53 > 0:03:56express, the Brexit enforcers, 100 Tory MPs will try and keep Theresa
0:03:56 > 0:04:00May on the straight and narrow when it comes to Brexit, they say. Jacob
0:04:00 > 0:04:04Rees-Mogg, no surprise he is involved. The Mail on Sunday, top
0:04:04 > 0:04:09Tories in Chinese cash for Brexit furore but is it really a funeral is
0:04:09 > 0:04:15it the sting that didn't stink? -- funerary. Let's start by talking
0:04:15 > 0:04:22about the Observer's exclusive with Theresa May. They have made quite a
0:04:22 > 0:04:26substantial peace.It is a substantial piece, the economy has
0:04:26 > 0:04:30to work for all. There is a quote, too often we have seen top
0:04:30 > 0:04:33executives reaping big bonuses for recklessly putting short-term profit
0:04:33 > 0:04:39ahead of long-term success. It is strong language, we have heard
0:04:39 > 0:04:43Theresa May talk about this before on the steps of No 10, this language
0:04:43 > 0:04:47is strong but the question is whether we will see anything happen.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50As ever the public mood has shifted dramatically in the last couple of
0:04:50 > 0:04:55years against turbo-charged capitalism, against high executive
0:04:55 > 0:04:58pay and something needs to be done. The question is whether this will be
0:04:58 > 0:05:05enough. I'm glad it was in the Observer, it knows how to get
0:05:05 > 0:05:08impact.Like the Guardian the Observer has changed dramatically.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11When you relaunch a paper you are taking something away from readers
0:05:11 > 0:05:14so you have to make sure they recognise the has changed. You call
0:05:14 > 0:05:22these tabloids, not compact, why? They are just papers so I don't mind
0:05:22 > 0:05:28what people call them as long as they have the good strong Guardian
0:05:28 > 0:05:31and Observer journalist and they used to have. There is an
0:05:31 > 0:05:35interesting question about the role of print in people's lives, the
0:05:35 > 0:05:38Guardian has 150 million readers around the world who are digital but
0:05:38 > 0:05:42the people who want to buy print, what is it they want from us? They
0:05:42 > 0:05:47want something tangible and physical to keep hold of.I will talk about
0:05:47 > 0:05:51this with Tina Brown later, but the problem is people are buying less
0:05:51 > 0:05:54print and therefore you have to find an alternative way of earning your
0:05:54 > 0:05:58lunch, the times has its subscription model which seems to
0:05:58 > 0:06:03work quite well but you have a very different model.Our model is a
0:06:03 > 0:06:05voluntary pay wall rather than a compulsory one, we still have lots
0:06:05 > 0:06:09of subscriptions and they do well for the Guardian, both subscription
0:06:09 > 0:06:13and in print but our new model, the last 18 months, has been a really
0:06:13 > 0:06:18successful model, people were very surprised because it's based on
0:06:18 > 0:06:21supporting the journalism, you don't get anything back, you don't get any
0:06:21 > 0:06:26freebies, but what you do is support Guardian journalism.And you feel
0:06:26 > 0:06:31better for that, you feel warm inside?Lots of people say one of
0:06:31 > 0:06:34the reasons they want to give us money is it keeps Guardian
0:06:34 > 0:06:37journalism available to everyone and that only works with organisations
0:06:37 > 0:06:41like the Guardian, you need a strong mission, something very distinctive,
0:06:41 > 0:06:45the Guardian is the world's biggest progressive news organisation. You
0:06:45 > 0:06:53also think, I you need a good relationship with your readers. We
0:06:53 > 0:06:58have 12,000 people giving us money. James Kelly, deputy chairman of the
0:06:58 > 0:07:00Conservative Party, perhaps not a glaring surprise you have chosen a
0:07:00 > 0:07:05Sunday Times splash about Momentum tightening its grip. We will talk
0:07:05 > 0:07:09more about its origins in a moment. What we have here is what we have
0:07:09 > 0:07:16seen happening subtly at the national level, which is Momentum
0:07:16 > 0:07:21really tightening its grip on the Labour Party. In the NEC elections
0:07:21 > 0:07:26they really consolidated. What we are seeing here now is this playing
0:07:26 > 0:07:32out at local government level, which will be the first time that we see
0:07:32 > 0:07:38the Momentum ideas put into practice, we have a story here about
0:07:38 > 0:07:43Momentum gets its clutches on its first council, we have local
0:07:43 > 0:07:47government elections coming later year in the spring. We have some
0:07:47 > 0:07:53indications of the kind of policies, including cutting the salaries of
0:07:53 > 0:07:58public employees who are earning over £60,000 a year.On the front
0:07:58 > 0:08:03page, they have said Corbyn allies will oust 50 Labour MPs, sounds very
0:08:03 > 0:08:05dramatic. When you look at it it's based on a single unattributable
0:08:05 > 0:08:11anonymous quote and Momentum put out a story saying this is nonsense, it
0:08:11 > 0:08:16is very thin, and I was hoping to read who the 50 Labour MPs are gone
0:08:16 > 0:08:23and who in Momentum is doing it but I can't find anything in the paper
0:08:23 > 0:08:27about that.We will come onto why that is not the strongest story for
0:08:27 > 0:08:32a front-page splash on a national newspaper.We will certainly come
0:08:32 > 0:08:35onto that later. Let's keep moving ahead because there is quite a tough
0:08:35 > 0:08:39story again for the Conservatives inside the Sunday Times, this is
0:08:39 > 0:08:43Michael Gove and others, I would say, on manoeuvres, is that a fair
0:08:43 > 0:08:48phrase?The amazing quotes from Nick Boles, former Housing Minister,
0:08:48 > 0:08:53still a Tory MP, he said we have a government full of boiled rabbits,
0:08:53 > 0:08:58which is apparently an Orwellian phrase, George Orwell phrase, saying
0:08:58 > 0:09:03that he thinks that the government is full of people who are either
0:09:03 > 0:09:08wet, meaning soft, or they are not brave enough to be radical and it is
0:09:08 > 0:09:12a timid government.Because he is so vivid I will read the whole quote,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15or most of it. We have a government full of boiled rabbits, Theresa may
0:09:15 > 0:09:19needs to give ministers their head and needs to tell them to follow
0:09:19 > 0:09:21their convictions, and ideally she needs to have a few convictions
0:09:21 > 0:09:29herself. Ouch! What do you make of that, James Kelly?Unsurprisingly I
0:09:29 > 0:09:37don't agree with Nick.What has gone on?
0:09:37 > 0:09:40on?The Prime Minister set out her views about corporate responsibility
0:09:40 > 0:09:45and big business, which were a reflection of the things she was
0:09:45 > 0:09:51saying on the steps of Downing Street when she set out her vision.
0:09:51 > 0:09:56Would you expect strong actions to go after these words?The fact she
0:09:56 > 0:10:01has made such a powerful statement in the Observer indicates that we
0:10:01 > 0:10:04are very much focused on getting a grip on this kind of stuff and
0:10:04 > 0:10:07people expect that. The point I was making is this is not new, this is
0:10:07 > 0:10:12not a response to things that have happened, this is her long-standing
0:10:12 > 0:10:15position on these issues.You have been a supporter of Boris in the
0:10:15 > 0:10:18past, we have seen him all over the front page of the Daily Telegraph
0:10:18 > 0:10:22and again in the story, it said he will win a cabinet battle to put
0:10:22 > 0:10:27more money into the NHS after Brexit. Is he on manoeuvres?Not as
0:10:27 > 0:10:37far as I know.Silly question, I know. Still, the Momentum story?
0:10:37 > 0:10:41Quite possibly.Something that is definitely not thin because it's in
0:10:41 > 0:10:44his own words, John McDonnell in the Shadow Chancellor talking in the
0:10:44 > 0:10:48Sunday Mirror about his plans for the NHS and Emergency Budget.John
0:10:48 > 0:10:51McDonnell says if he were Chancellor at the moment he would unveil an
0:10:51 > 0:10:56Emergency Budget next week for the NHS is providing £5 billion input
0:10:56 > 0:11:02and he would do this by taxing higher earners more.This is stuff
0:11:02 > 0:11:05we know up to a point already in terms of the high rates of tax but
0:11:05 > 0:11:09he's bringing it forward, he's saying it's about momentum in a
0:11:09 > 0:11:12different sense, I suppose, early days for a Labour government, we
0:11:12 > 0:11:17would first do an emergency digit and put more money into the NHS.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21They think there is a mood out there for people to pay more tax to save
0:11:21 > 0:11:27the NHS, as it were. This is another watershed moment.Well, it depends.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30If the Labour Party were honest enough to say we are going to pump
0:11:30 > 0:11:35extra spending into the NHS, and you are going to pay more tax, I would
0:11:35 > 0:11:37have more respect. Once again what we are seeing is the Labour Party
0:11:37 > 0:11:43saying they will put money in and somebody else.Over 80,000 fourth of
0:11:43 > 0:11:47the vast majority of British people in reality will pay more tax on the
0:11:47 > 0:11:50Labour's plans and we will come onto that in a minute.What they keep
0:11:50 > 0:11:53doing is they say we will spend this extra money but don't worry somebody
0:11:53 > 0:11:57else will foot the bill and that's just fundamentally dishonest
0:11:57 > 0:12:03position to help with the British people.Telegraph has a story, the
0:12:03 > 0:12:07right of centre think tank, we should say, has costed some Labour
0:12:07 > 0:12:10spending plans when it comes to renationalisation, is that right?
0:12:10 > 0:12:19The figure they have put on it which they have calculated is £176 billion
0:12:19 > 0:12:22to renationalise these public utilities and the rail companies. To
0:12:22 > 0:12:26put that into perspective, that is about the same size as the NHS
0:12:26 > 0:12:33budget and the defence budget put together.If it's true...Even if
0:12:33 > 0:12:37the figure is slightly off, we are not looking at an order of magnitude
0:12:37 > 0:12:43error, you are looking at something at or near 100, 50 billion and that
0:12:43 > 0:12:50is a massive amount of money. Once again someone is going to have to
0:12:50 > 0:12:53pay -- 150 billion.I will talk to John McDonnell about that later.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58Talk about the story that stung but maybe not enough, on the front page
0:12:58 > 0:13:02of the Mail on Sunday and inside the Mail on Sunday and there suggestions
0:13:02 > 0:13:06the Sunday Times had it and they were working with Channel 4's
0:13:06 > 0:13:10Dispatches programme and they set up a sting operation in an office in
0:13:10 > 0:13:14Mayfair and had a Chinese lady who brought in three leading
0:13:14 > 0:13:16Conservatives and she tried to persuade them to do something
0:13:16 > 0:13:21improper and sadly for everybody they didn't.This is the point I was
0:13:21 > 0:13:28making about those seeming
0:13:28 > 0:13:30making about those seeming gaps in The Times. The Mail on Sunday has
0:13:30 > 0:13:34gone with a big splash but when you look at the language it is all about
0:13:34 > 0:13:39what was done to the MPs and not what they have actually said. As far
0:13:39 > 0:13:43as I can make out, I've read through this in a bit of detail, it seems
0:13:43 > 0:13:46they were approached and they also bass interesting, I will consult the
0:13:46 > 0:13:50Parliamentary authorities and get back to you.Exacted what they were
0:13:50 > 0:13:54supposed to not do, they were supposed to say, yeah, give it to
0:13:54 > 0:13:59me.It is a bit of a nonstory, big splash.As a newspaper editor there
0:13:59 > 0:14:02is nothing worse than having a big story you are excited about,
0:14:02 > 0:14:06emptying space across the paper for it and it's not quite ready on the
0:14:06 > 0:14:08day.Especially if people know about it which is what happened in this
0:14:08 > 0:14:11case, it is best to keep these incredibly secret so nobody knows
0:14:11 > 0:14:16about it when you fail to deliver. UNIX story is a bit further afield,
0:14:16 > 0:14:21but still a British connection to the talks in Germany between Angela
0:14:21 > 0:14:24Merkel and social Democrats.It is crunch day today because there is a
0:14:24 > 0:14:27vote amongst the social Democrats about whether their leader and
0:14:27 > 0:14:31whether they should go into a grand coalition with Merkel's
0:14:31 > 0:14:33Conservatives. It's particularly interesting because according to
0:14:33 > 0:14:39this terrific piece in the Observer, the people who are most opposing the
0:14:39 > 0:14:42idea of an alliance with Merkel are the young activists in the social
0:14:42 > 0:14:48Democrats. They say they want a chance for the SPD to renew itself,
0:14:48 > 0:14:54they want to prevent the far right, AfD, from being the official
0:14:54 > 0:14:57opposition in the Bundestag, so they may prevent this from happening. The
0:14:57 > 0:15:01idea it is the youth wing causing all the excitement I think is
0:15:01 > 0:15:05interesting and has parallels here and the boat is today.Fascinating
0:15:05 > 0:15:10story and we will watch closely. A few days ago I noticed Nigel Farage
0:15:10 > 0:15:14said something quite odd. He said that we Brexiteers are losing the
0:15:14 > 0:15:18argument, things are going backward, something will have to change, you
0:15:18 > 0:15:23wonder what he's up to. The Sunday Times thinks it knows what he's up
0:15:23 > 0:15:27to.Apparently he seems to feel that not being the leader of a political
0:15:27 > 0:15:33party is something he is unhappy with her as a status and there is
0:15:33 > 0:15:39talk about him launching a new political party, which I think is
0:15:39 > 0:15:48interesting. The internal arguments in Ukip are boiling up here.Do you
0:15:48 > 0:15:53think Henry Bolton fans arrive as leader of Ukip?I'm not sure is that
0:15:53 > 0:15:57relevant, this is the challenge Ukip have got, they are no longer
0:15:57 > 0:16:02relevant. What is the question to which Ukip is the right answer? I
0:16:02 > 0:16:06certainly don't know.Long pause there. Thank you, that was a really
0:16:06 > 0:16:10good counter, indeed a gallop from the newspaper stories. And so to the
0:16:10 > 0:16:13weather, lots of snow in the north and lowest temperatures for a very
0:16:13 > 0:16:16long time, -13 in some places, but beyond that down here soaking, it's
0:16:16 > 0:16:24coming down in Sderot, cats and dogs, sluicing, dripping, gushing,
0:16:24 > 0:16:35gurgling, nice for docks, over to Tomasz Schafernaker.
0:16:35 > 0:16:39What an introduction, you have summed it up perfectly. We are
0:16:39 > 0:16:43talking about snow, take it steady on the roads today, the snow will be
0:16:43 > 0:16:48coming down in the coming hours. The very mild areas in the south, the
0:16:48 > 0:16:54cold air in the north and it was the coldest night of the winter so far,
0:16:54 > 0:16:58minus 13 degrees. This snow from Scotland and to the Highlands and
0:16:58 > 0:17:04the north of England as well.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07the north of England as well. Up to 15 centimetres of fresh snow on the
0:17:07 > 0:17:11way, turning milder in Northern Ireland, Wales and the south-west,
0:17:11 > 0:17:15but in the Midlands we would have seemed a bit of snow. It is very
0:17:15 > 0:17:22difficult today to say how much snow, but the overall message is
0:17:22 > 0:17:25many northern, central and some southern areas will get at least
0:17:25 > 0:17:30some covering here and there. Most of the snow will fall across the
0:17:30 > 0:17:34hills but it will be a temporary feature because by the time we get
0:17:34 > 0:17:39to the end of the night the mild air arrives of the Atlantic. The
0:17:39 > 0:17:43snapshot for tomorrow, you can see a completely different day, no snow in
0:17:43 > 0:17:44the forecast
0:17:44 > 0:17:47completely different day, no snow in the forecast and that little bit
0:17:47 > 0:17:49milder as well. So for once we can look forward to
0:17:49 > 0:17:50Monday.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53Tina Brown was a bright young British journalist who grabbed
0:17:53 > 0:17:56Tatler at the age of 25 and basically saved its bacon.
0:17:56 > 0:17:57She married the great newspaper editor Harry Evans
0:17:57 > 0:17:59and went to New York.
0:17:59 > 0:18:00There, she reshaped much of American journalism,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03latterly at The Daily Beast, before that at the New Yorker,
0:18:03 > 0:18:05and perhaps most successfully of all, Vanity Fair.
0:18:05 > 0:18:06She's just published
0:18:06 > 0:18:11the Vanity Fair Diaries and she joins me now.
0:18:11 > 0:18:19Tino, welcome. You tell in the stories of the diaries, a world of
0:18:19 > 0:18:23rubbing shoulders with extraordinarily glamorous people
0:18:23 > 0:18:31like Michael Jackson, Andy Warhol, all sorts.
0:18:31 > 0:18:36all sorts. Is there anybody now where you can turn around at a party
0:18:36 > 0:18:47and say, wow, and standing next to X?An completely obsessed with
0:18:47 > 0:18:50Angela Merkel but she is the anti-Vanity Fair person.You
0:18:50 > 0:18:58couldn't put her on the front cover, could you?I would now. She's been a
0:18:58 > 0:19:03rock star, her charisma is fading a little but she still remains the
0:19:03 > 0:19:07incredible purpose-built pantsuit that conquers the world.The first
0:19:07 > 0:19:11really big moments in New York were putting onto the front page of
0:19:11 > 0:19:16Vanity Fair some extraordinary pictures which grabbed attention
0:19:16 > 0:19:24very famously of Demi Moore. Did you know at the time, did you think this
0:19:24 > 0:19:28will change things?As soon as I saw that picture I was obsessed with
0:19:28 > 0:19:33having it on the cover. It happened because I had just been pregnant and
0:19:33 > 0:19:39was militant about wearing maternity clothes. I said to the photographer,
0:19:39 > 0:19:46do hurts so you can show the bulge. What I didn't say was doing naked
0:19:46 > 0:19:53and pregnant, but she came back with these pictures, I went ballistic and
0:19:53 > 0:20:00I had to have it.So you didn't look at it, and think this is too much?
0:20:00 > 0:20:05No, I thought it was a liberating statement for women. I don't think
0:20:05 > 0:20:09women have ever really worn maternity clothes since.It did
0:20:09 > 0:20:15change things and of course you put on about a million on Vanity Fair's
0:20:15 > 0:20:20circulation mainly on the news stand so people would walk past the new
0:20:20 > 0:20:25stand, put their hand in their pocket and by that.Indeed, a
0:20:25 > 0:20:31wonderful day.You think it is still possible for print to get its Mojo
0:20:31 > 0:20:35back?It is not possible I don't think for the newsstand to ever
0:20:35 > 0:20:44return. Actually with Demi Moore, we were at 700,000, we went up to 1.2
0:20:44 > 0:20:53million. When the Caitlin Jenner cover, the transgender cover of
0:20:53 > 0:20:57Caitlin Jenner was on the cover of Vanity Fair, it didn't really impact
0:20:57 > 0:21:01at all... It had an impact but it didn't have newsstand impact because
0:21:01 > 0:21:06everybody looked at it online.So this means a whole new way of
0:21:06 > 0:21:10thinking about journalism and Harry Evans, the idea you have to have a
0:21:10 > 0:21:14great headline and picture, that's how you build circulation, that is
0:21:14 > 0:21:20all going?You still need a great cover, more than ever, because now
0:21:20 > 0:21:28nobody reads inside magazines. Everybody hopes that will get you
0:21:28 > 0:21:35talking and drive you to the content inside.In the Vanity Fair Diaries,
0:21:35 > 0:21:39one figure appears again and again added to his Donald Trump. You
0:21:39 > 0:21:43compare him initially to Elvis, what was he like when you first came
0:21:43 > 0:21:48across him?He does recur like a virus! When I first met him I had
0:21:48 > 0:21:54just extracted the art of the deal in Vanity Fair. I say in the diaries
0:21:54 > 0:22:02this is all
0:22:02 > 0:22:14this is all -- full-hit but it is authentic. He was loud and brash,
0:22:14 > 0:22:22and I thought he was for me.Later on one of your reporters does number
0:22:22 > 0:22:26on him and discovers he has a collection of Hitler's speeches in
0:22:26 > 0:22:31his office and various other things about him. She goes to a party with
0:22:31 > 0:22:37him, what happens next?This piece which had gone into his financial
0:22:37 > 0:22:40failings and then the Hitler speeches which have made enormous
0:22:40 > 0:22:45news, so she's at a dinner party sitting at a black-tie benefit and
0:22:45 > 0:22:49she suddenly feels something wet down her back. She looks behind her
0:22:49 > 0:22:55and thinking the waiter had spilled the wind. She sees the sneaky figure
0:22:55 > 0:23:03of Donald Trump taking off, he had spilled wine down her back and she
0:23:03 > 0:23:10wanted to send him the cleaning bill but decided that would only get more
0:23:10 > 0:23:14thunder from him.And to understand Donald Trump you have to understand
0:23:14 > 0:23:19New York in the 1980s, high rolling, brash, over the top, people spoke
0:23:19 > 0:23:25and acted in an unusual way.His gilded grossness is the icon of that
0:23:25 > 0:23:31whole era and it was his tower in a sense. If you can think of one image
0:23:31 > 0:23:35of the 1980s it was that the old tower with Donald Trump at the top
0:23:35 > 0:23:39of it. It is interesting now how that sort of sense of the 1980s has
0:23:39 > 0:23:42returned, like we are in the constant recurring waves of the
0:23:42 > 0:23:47past.Is it not possible, you are involved in corporations of one kind
0:23:47 > 0:23:54or another, big personal tax cuts and corporate tax cuts, is it
0:23:54 > 0:23:58possible Trump economics will work, bringing jobs back to America and a
0:23:58 > 0:24:03return to the Roaring 1980s?Frankly you already feel the animal spirits
0:24:03 > 0:24:08on Wall Street just like in the 1980s. I think the Democrats'
0:24:08 > 0:24:15mistake is not to allow him any credit. Apple has 270 billion
0:24:15 > 0:24:23offshore account, coming back to the US, which will result in 38 billion
0:24:23 > 0:24:28dollars in taxes, jobs, it is a big thing and will be emulated by other
0:24:28 > 0:24:36people. It is just possible...That he could be re-elected.Without
0:24:36 > 0:24:40doubt, there is a strong possibility he could be re-elected.The other
0:24:40 > 0:24:46big figure you were involved with in Talk magazine is Harvey Weinstein,
0:24:46 > 0:24:51and you didn't know he was engaged to like this, you have great and
0:24:51 > 0:24:56tonight.It was not my greatest career move going to work with
0:24:56 > 0:25:03Harvey, I was more concerned with the volcanic chicanery
0:25:05 > 0:25:08the volcanic chicanery than any sexual stuff. I didn't know what was
0:25:08 > 0:25:13going on inside his office. One knew he had a million and one women who
0:25:13 > 0:25:20would like to hang out with at night but he was a Hollywood guy.He was a
0:25:20 > 0:25:23bully and caused you post-traumatic stress disorder, you said?I've
0:25:23 > 0:25:29never experienced battling with Harvey because on a daily basis he
0:25:29 > 0:25:33so profane and awful.You wrote an interesting book about Diana, the
0:25:33 > 0:25:37day chronicles, in that context anecdotes about Meghan Markle as she
0:25:37 > 0:25:41embarks on this odd life inside the royal family?What's interesting to
0:25:41 > 0:25:47think about is the fact at 36 Meghan Markle is the same age Diana was
0:25:47 > 0:25:52when she died. With Meghan Markle the main thing is she's had this
0:25:52 > 0:25:56huge life already and she's this well-trained public woman so that is
0:25:56 > 0:26:01one of the biggest differences. Diana was a child, she was 19 when
0:26:01 > 0:26:07she met Charles.Absolutely
0:26:08 > 0:26:11she met Charles.Absolutely funds -- fascinating, Tina Brown. And for
0:26:11 > 0:26:15anybody offended by a word used, we apologise.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18Now coming up later this morning, Sarah Smith will be talking
0:26:18 > 0:26:20about Brexit as Jacob Rees-Mogg goes head to head with
0:26:20 > 0:26:21arch remainer Lord Adonis.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24And she'll be talking to beguiled Ukip leader Henry Bolton.
0:26:24 > 0:26:26That's the Sunday Politics at 11am, here on BBC One.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29I first interviewed Emmanuel Macron in 2016 when he was a relatively
0:26:29 > 0:26:31unknown economic minister determined to swipe hi-tech jobs from London.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34Since then, of course, he tore up the political rule book
0:26:34 > 0:26:36and romped to a historic victory in the French
0:26:36 > 0:26:39presidential elections.
0:26:39 > 0:26:41With Angela Merkel struggling in Germany,
0:26:41 > 0:26:43President Macron is widely seen as THE Leader in Europe.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45This week, he came to talk defence and the migrant
0:26:45 > 0:26:47crisis with Theresa May at the Royal Military
0:26:47 > 0:26:49Academy in Sandhurst.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52I caught up with him there and began by asking him whether he thought our
0:26:52 > 0:26:54Prime Minister could secure the deep and special partnership
0:26:54 > 0:26:59with the EU that she talks of.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02I do hope.
0:27:02 > 0:27:06I do hope, because I think it will be good for the EU and for the UK.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09She said a deep relationship.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12However, I imagine your view is if the UK is not going to be
0:27:12 > 0:27:15a member of the customs union or the Single Market,
0:27:15 > 0:27:18or accept the four freedoms, it can't be that deep.
0:27:18 > 0:27:23Look, it will be by definition less deep than today because the deepest
0:27:23 > 0:27:27possible relation is being a member of the European Union,
0:27:27 > 0:27:35so I think you have to be lucid and you have to be fair with people.
0:27:36 > 0:27:43As you decided to leave, you cannot be part of the Single Market.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46But in the function of the nature of the negotiation, you can have some
0:27:46 > 0:27:48deeper relations than some others.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51For instance, we have a deeper relation with Norway than the one
0:27:51 > 0:27:53we have with Canada.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55So, it depends on the outcome of the negotiation.
0:27:55 > 0:28:00But, for sure, except if you change your mind,
0:28:00 > 0:28:03but you will not be part of the Single Market,
0:28:03 > 0:28:08as you will not be part of the European Union.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11And in concrete terms, let's talk about what that might mean.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14You've said in the past you can have Canada or you can have
0:28:14 > 0:28:16Norway, but you can't have your own special deal.
0:28:16 > 0:28:18Is that really fair, given how long Britain has
0:28:18 > 0:28:19been part of the EU?
0:28:19 > 0:28:22No, it's not a question to be fair or unfair.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26I take that as a reference but for sure you'll have your own
0:28:26 > 0:28:28solution, and my willingness...
0:28:28 > 0:28:31So there will be a bespoke special solution for Britain?
0:28:31 > 0:28:35Sure but I take these two references because this special way should be
0:28:35 > 0:28:38consistent with the preservation of the Single Market
0:28:38 > 0:28:42and our collective interests.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45And, you should understand that you cannot, by definition,
0:28:45 > 0:28:47have the full access to the Single Market
0:28:47 > 0:28:52if you don't tick the box.
0:28:52 > 0:28:56And to get full access to the Single Market you need
0:28:56 > 0:28:58contribution to the budget and you have to accept...
0:28:58 > 0:29:00The freedoms.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02..The freedoms and the four pillars, and you have
0:29:02 > 0:29:04to accept the jurisdiction.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07As soon as you decide not to join these preconditions
0:29:07 > 0:29:09it's not a full access.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12So, it's something perhaps between this full access
0:29:12 > 0:29:15and a trade agreement.
0:29:15 > 0:29:17But what's important is not to make people think or believe that
0:29:17 > 0:29:20it's possible to have...
0:29:20 > 0:29:23Your cake and eat it?
0:29:23 > 0:29:25Exactly.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28So, when I talk to David Davis, our main Brexit negotiator,
0:29:28 > 0:29:31and I say what is Britain really want out of this, David?
0:29:31 > 0:29:38He says we want Canada plus plus plus.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41And, by plus plus plus, he means a deal on services because so much
0:29:41 > 0:29:44of the UK economy is based on services in general
0:29:44 > 0:29:46and on the City in particular.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48From what you've said today, I guess that you don't believe
0:29:48 > 0:29:51that we can have any special deal involving the City.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54I mean, you don't just speak about services but you speak
0:29:54 > 0:29:58about financial services.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01Cooking a deal is the job of Michel Barnier, and we have a very
0:30:01 > 0:30:04dedicated organisation.
0:30:04 > 0:30:07I don't want to start a negotiation country by country.
0:30:07 > 0:30:12It would be ridiculous and the best way to dismantle the whole EU.
0:30:12 > 0:30:20I think what we have to do, and what we will do,
0:30:20 > 0:30:23is first to take the decision in March regarding the mandate
0:30:23 > 0:30:25we want to give to Michel Barnier to negotiate,
0:30:25 > 0:30:33after what he will have to negotiate with your negotiator.
0:30:42 > 0:30:48Full access to the single market is not feasible.So in concrete terms,
0:30:48 > 0:30:53some form of passporting deal is off the table with these negotiations as
0:30:53 > 0:30:57far as you are concerned?I am not the one to negotiate but it depends
0:30:57 > 0:31:04on what you are ready to put on the table in terms of preconditions.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07If you respect the precondition to get But there is no cherry
0:31:07 > 0:31:08picking in the Single Market.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10I mean, if I have to wrap up the full philosophy,
0:31:10 > 0:31:14no cherry picking of the Single Market.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17Because it's not feasible.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20Because otherwise that's the dismantling of the Single Market.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23And for me it's one of the pillars of the European Union and something
0:31:23 > 0:31:25you loved in the past.
0:31:25 > 0:31:29And you say that you're not negotiating and that's absolutely
0:31:29 > 0:31:33right, but you are very much saying that one of the consequences
0:31:33 > 0:31:35of Brexit, you thought, was to reaffirm Paris's centrality
0:31:35 > 0:31:38in the financial system and France has made a very,
0:31:38 > 0:31:39very strong pitch to British financial institutions
0:31:39 > 0:31:40to come over to Paris.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43How is it going?
0:31:43 > 0:31:46In terms of European dialogue on financial services, but for sure,
0:31:46 > 0:31:48for sure we want to attract the maximum activity.
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Why?
0:31:50 > 0:31:55Because this decision has an impact for a lot of players.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58So a lot of players will decide to be part of the EU
0:31:58 > 0:32:00and the Eurozone, and they have to choose between
0:32:00 > 0:32:01different countries.
0:32:01 > 0:32:03So there is a competition between different countries.
0:32:03 > 0:32:05Of course there is.
0:32:05 > 0:32:09I suppose the case for the City is that it has built up a very big
0:32:09 > 0:32:11part of the whole global financial system and to unplug the City
0:32:11 > 0:32:14from the rest of the European financial structure is a big
0:32:14 > 0:32:21risk and danger.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24Look, I think, first of all, it's absolutely not my willingness
0:32:24 > 0:32:25and not a reasonable perspective.
0:32:25 > 0:32:28Second, it's something to be taken into consideration by your
0:32:28 > 0:32:33negotiator and your own proposals.
0:32:33 > 0:32:35But my willingness is not precisely to unplug,
0:32:35 > 0:32:38as you say, the British City, I think it doesn't make sense
0:32:38 > 0:32:42because it's part of the whole financing of our European Union.
0:32:42 > 0:32:48But for sure, if there is no change in terms of full access
0:32:48 > 0:32:52to the financial Single Market, it doesn't make sense for the other.
0:32:52 > 0:32:58So, I want to preserve what we created post-World War II.
0:32:58 > 0:33:02So, I want to preserve what we created post-World War.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05And what we created is this sophisticated organisation
0:33:05 > 0:33:08called the European Union, which is for the very first
0:33:08 > 0:33:09time not an hegemony
0:33:09 > 0:33:11of one on the others but a very complete, democratic,
0:33:11 > 0:33:15economic and human construction.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17Why do you think the British voted to leave this
0:33:17 > 0:33:18sophisticated structure?
0:33:18 > 0:33:23Look, I'm not the one to judge or to comment
0:33:23 > 0:33:26the decision of your people.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29But my interpretation is that a lot of losers of this new globalisation
0:33:29 > 0:33:32and this new system suddenly decided that it was no more for them.
0:33:32 > 0:33:40You always take a risk when you have such a referendum.
0:33:40 > 0:33:43Just yes or no in a very complicated context.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46If France had had a referendum it might have had the same results.
0:33:46 > 0:33:50If France had had a referendum it might have had the same result.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52Yeah, probably.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54Probably, in a similar context.
0:33:54 > 0:34:02But our context was very different, so I don't want to...
0:34:03 > 0:34:06..Make any...
0:34:06 > 0:34:08I mean, to take any bed, but I would have definitely
0:34:08 > 0:34:10fought very hard to win.
0:34:10 > 0:34:13But I think it's a mistake when we just ask yes or no
0:34:13 > 0:34:15when you don't ask people how to improve the situation
0:34:15 > 0:34:19and to explain how to improve it.
0:34:19 > 0:34:21As for the Brexit vote, my understanding is that middle
0:34:21 > 0:34:23classes and working classes, and especially the oldest
0:34:23 > 0:34:26in your country, decided that the recent decades were not
0:34:26 > 0:34:34in their favour and that the adjustments made by both
0:34:37 > 0:34:40EU and globalisation, because for me it was a mix of both
0:34:40 > 0:34:42of them, was not in their favour.
0:34:42 > 0:34:46But surely it was about Europe as well, and the structure of Europe.
0:34:46 > 0:34:50And second, I think one of the reasons was precisely
0:34:50 > 0:34:57an organisation of our European Union, probably
0:34:57 > 0:35:01which got too far in terms of freedom without cohesion,
0:35:01 > 0:35:05towards free markets without any rules and any convergence.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08And I have to say that your government had some
0:35:08 > 0:35:10responsibilities in it.
0:35:10 > 0:35:18Too neoliberal, perhaps?
0:35:19 > 0:35:21Ten years ago ultra-liberal and purely free-market
0:35:21 > 0:35:27without any regulation, because all your people saying
0:35:27 > 0:35:30the Hungarian workers or the Polish workers are much more favoured
0:35:30 > 0:35:34than I am, it was exactly the debate we had in France ten to 15 years ago
0:35:34 > 0:35:38against some directives that a lot of your governments pushed at that
0:35:38 > 0:35:40time saying, guys, you are not free market.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42I do believe in free market.
0:35:42 > 0:35:43I do believe in a market economy.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46But we need regulation and convergence.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50Your vision seems to me to be deepening Europe
0:35:50 > 0:35:51as a response to this.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54You want a single financial minister over the whole thing,
0:35:54 > 0:35:56more European taxes, more done at the centre.
0:35:56 > 0:35:57Again, is that not a terrible risk?
0:35:57 > 0:35:59No.
0:35:59 > 0:36:01Given how many European people look at this and say,
0:36:01 > 0:36:02"It's too far away already."
0:36:02 > 0:36:03No.
0:36:03 > 0:36:05"I don't feel engaged with it."
0:36:05 > 0:36:07No, because it's not just my view.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10I think what we need is first of all to have a much
0:36:10 > 0:36:11more protective Europe.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14Europe is something which will protect you on digital,
0:36:14 > 0:36:15environment, migration, collective security,
0:36:15 > 0:36:23and a fair organisation.
0:36:25 > 0:36:28But my, I would say, on the mid- to long-run view
0:36:28 > 0:36:31of Europe is the following.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33I do believe that we will have a European Union,
0:36:33 > 0:36:34we will be, unhappily, 27.
0:36:34 > 0:36:35Inevitably, definitely?
0:36:35 > 0:36:38I mean it's on your own, it depends on you.
0:36:38 > 0:36:39I mean, I do respect this vote.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41I do regret this vote.
0:36:41 > 0:36:42And I would love to welcome you again.
0:36:42 > 0:36:44I can say it.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47Your vision of a different Europe.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50But my vision, to be clear, on the very short run,
0:36:50 > 0:36:52be much more concrete, less bureaucracy and more concrete
0:36:52 > 0:36:55and so to protect people and address the issues.
0:36:55 > 0:36:59More sovereignty, more unity, more democracy.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01That's the recipe in order to succeed in Europe.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04If you lose your sovereignty and you don't protect people
0:37:04 > 0:37:05they don't believe in you.
0:37:05 > 0:37:11If you are not based on a democratic approach they will not follow you.
0:37:11 > 0:37:14If you are not following this unity, ie creating consistency
0:37:14 > 0:37:15and convergence they will leave.
0:37:15 > 0:37:16You said France is back.
0:37:16 > 0:37:19What did you mean by that?
0:37:19 > 0:37:21I mean that we are delivering reforms which were
0:37:21 > 0:37:25impossible for decades.
0:37:25 > 0:37:28This is, for me, the pillar because when you are not credible
0:37:28 > 0:37:30at home you have no chance to be credible outside.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33You talk about values, which must involve, presumably,
0:37:33 > 0:37:37freedom of the press and human rights and so forth.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39Did you raise those with the Chinese President
0:37:39 > 0:37:43when you were talking to him?
0:37:43 > 0:37:45I raised with all the leaders I met.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47In China it's absolutely counter-productive to raise it,
0:37:47 > 0:37:49there is no press conference.
0:37:49 > 0:37:54Because, I mean, the political systems, regime, presidency,
0:37:54 > 0:37:56is not in a situation, in an environment...
0:37:56 > 0:37:57Not going to help, you think?
0:37:57 > 0:38:00I do believe it's totally counter-productive.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04OK.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07So, what I did is I had a direct discussion,
0:38:07 > 0:38:11we have tried to discuss the issue.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14We decided an organisation and I provided, I would say,
0:38:14 > 0:38:17visibility and the ability for him to be sure that this is not
0:38:17 > 0:38:19a diplomacy in front of the camera.
0:38:19 > 0:38:21But I issued a very clear statement.
0:38:21 > 0:38:26Let me ask you, if I may, about yet another leader and wonder
0:38:26 > 0:38:29what you thought when you got up in the morning and read
0:38:29 > 0:38:31what President Trump, I can't say the word,
0:38:31 > 0:38:36had said about certain African countries, s-hole countries,
0:38:36 > 0:38:39he denies it but a lot of people say he used that word.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41And among the African countries who were outraged and very offended
0:38:41 > 0:38:43by that were many Francophone countries, many French-speaking
0:38:43 > 0:38:46countries in Africa, and I wondered, did you share their outrage?
0:38:46 > 0:38:51For sure.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54For sure.
0:38:54 > 0:39:00It's not a word you can use, and if we want precisely to build
0:39:00 > 0:39:07peace, development in this country
0:39:07 > 0:39:09and a respectful relationship.
0:39:09 > 0:39:11You can't use those kind of words?
0:39:11 > 0:39:14That by definition, and I think a lot of our issues in both
0:39:14 > 0:39:17the Middle East and in Africa is due to a lot of frustrations,
0:39:17 > 0:39:19due to a lot of past humiliation.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22And we have to understand that, and I do believe that we have
0:39:22 > 0:39:25to respect all the countries.
0:39:25 > 0:39:32That's what we owe them and that's much more efficient.
0:39:32 > 0:39:35So, I have a very direct relationship with President Trump.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38We have a very good relationship.
0:39:38 > 0:39:42You sat down for him with dinner at the top of the Eiffel Tower.
0:39:42 > 0:39:43Sure.
0:39:43 > 0:39:45I wondered what you make of him as a person having
0:39:45 > 0:39:46come across him closely.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48Look, I think he is not a classical politician.
0:39:48 > 0:39:52So, first of all, he was elected by the American people as the President
0:39:52 > 0:39:54of the United States.
0:39:54 > 0:40:01And that's a great country and that's a great ally.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04So, I want to work with him and I think we built a very
0:40:04 > 0:40:05strong relationship.
0:40:05 > 0:40:06We disagree on several topics.
0:40:06 > 0:40:08Sure.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10I call him very regularly.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12I'm always extremely direct and frank, he is.
0:40:12 > 0:40:13Sometimes I manage to convince him.
0:40:13 > 0:40:15And sometimes I fail.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17Do you wake up in the morning thinking, what has
0:40:17 > 0:40:19he tweeted this night?
0:40:19 > 0:40:21No.
0:40:21 > 0:40:23No, because I think we should not overplay
0:40:23 > 0:40:25the situation and these tweets.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28I'm asking you...
0:40:28 > 0:40:30That's a sort of mix between personal and political
0:40:30 > 0:40:38reaction, and I think it's not feasible when you are the President
0:40:39 > 0:40:42of a Republic like the US Republic but like the French ones.
0:40:42 > 0:40:45To respond too much like that.
0:40:45 > 0:40:47The reason I'm asking with a slight smile on my face,
0:40:47 > 0:40:49but it is very, very serious.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52We've got something like the North Korean situation.
0:40:52 > 0:40:56When Trump basically says, "My nuclear button's bigger
0:40:56 > 0:40:59than your nuclear button," a lot of people in the world think
0:40:59 > 0:41:01this is just slightly unhinged and very dangerous.
0:41:01 > 0:41:03Yes, but the best answer you can provide to that is what?
0:41:03 > 0:41:07Just to say we have to work very closely and seriously to force
0:41:07 > 0:41:09North Korea to come back to the table of negotiations.
0:41:09 > 0:41:13We have to follow the UN sanctions and implement them.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15And the critical country in order to deliver is China.
0:41:15 > 0:41:16Absolutely.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18And that's what we discussed with President Xi.
0:41:18 > 0:41:20Talking about bringing countries back...
0:41:20 > 0:41:25It's just, calm down everybody.
0:41:25 > 0:41:27Do you think that there is any chance at all of persuading
0:41:27 > 0:41:31the Americans to come back to the table on the Paris
0:41:31 > 0:41:31climate change agreement?
0:41:31 > 0:41:34First of all, I don't think there is any option to come back
0:41:34 > 0:41:37to the table of negotiations to the Paris Agreement.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40I've always been very clear, it's negotiated and signed.
0:41:40 > 0:41:42It's just deciding to sign what is done.
0:41:42 > 0:41:43Why?
0:41:43 > 0:41:44Because...
0:41:44 > 0:41:48To sign it then?
0:41:48 > 0:41:50We negotiated, more than 180 countries signed
0:41:50 > 0:41:53and have been ratifying.
0:41:53 > 0:41:57Come on, we will not renegotiate for one people.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00So, I do believe it's a big mistake.
0:42:00 > 0:42:02I told him there is no new negotiation.
0:42:02 > 0:42:05You join or you don't join.
0:42:05 > 0:42:07China decided to remain in the loop and we will deliver,
0:42:07 > 0:42:11I think we have to accelerate.
0:42:11 > 0:42:15But what I see is that the private sector and the state in the US
0:42:15 > 0:42:16are following this line.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19They are trying to comply with the agreement, so we will do it.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22Very final question.
0:42:22 > 0:42:24You said you were going to be a Jupiter-like president.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27What did you mean by that?
0:42:27 > 0:42:30I think I never used like that this expression.
0:42:30 > 0:42:34When you preside you have to preside, it's different
0:42:34 > 0:42:41from governing, and you have to avoid permanent comments,
0:42:41 > 0:42:44to avoid the sort of day-to-day presence without strong decisions.
0:42:44 > 0:42:47You have to have a bit of elan, a bit of gloire.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51I would not say that exactly.
0:42:51 > 0:42:59You need efficiency, authority, humanity.
0:43:00 > 0:43:02So that's why the third pillar is not compatible with Jupiter,
0:43:02 > 0:43:06or anything of this kind.
0:43:06 > 0:43:09But what's important to me and the message I want to say
0:43:09 > 0:43:12is that our credibility is to explain what we want to do,
0:43:12 > 0:43:16to deliver, to change the country, to prepare the country
0:43:16 > 0:43:21for the new centuries.
0:43:21 > 0:43:24That's what we are doing in France because that's a precondition
0:43:24 > 0:43:26to succeed in Europe.
0:43:26 > 0:43:28And our role in this world is to help everywhere to build peace.
0:43:28 > 0:43:34That's it, that's my job.
0:43:34 > 0:43:35President Macron, thank you very much indeed.
0:43:35 > 0:43:40Thank you very much.
0:43:40 > 0:43:44If you are a dog soul you can see a longer version of my interview with
0:43:44 > 0:43:48President Emmanuel Macron on the BBC News Channel at 11:30am this morning
0:43:48 > 0:43:51and also tonight at 8:30pm.
0:43:51 > 0:43:53So, we've heard from President Macron that the EU
0:43:53 > 0:43:56won't be doing the City of London any favours in the Brexit talks.
0:43:56 > 0:43:58Yet more financial headaches for the next government.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01And if he is Chancellor in it, Labour's John McDonnell,
0:44:01 > 0:44:04is also going to have to find major resources to reverse the private
0:44:04 > 0:44:05finance revolution which, after Carillion, seems
0:44:05 > 0:44:06to be unravelling.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09He joins me now.
0:44:09 > 0:44:13What did you make of President Macron.It was an impressive
0:44:13 > 0:44:16interview, I thought you interviewed him extremely well, I will flatter
0:44:16 > 0:44:20you, but I thought he was impressive, very straightforward in
0:44:20 > 0:44:26his views.Very eloquent.And also he set the parameters of the debate.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29He regards himself as a man of the left, do you think he is?He is
0:44:29 > 0:44:32centre-left, some of his policies, some of them I disagree with. He
0:44:32 > 0:44:36veers too much towards dominance of the market within the economy itself
0:44:36 > 0:44:40but it's interesting, some of the reforms he is advocating are also
0:44:40 > 0:44:45about the protection of the lower earners as well. I agree with his
0:44:45 > 0:44:50analysis about the referendum, by the way. About how neoliberalism has
0:44:50 > 0:44:53alienate people as a result of that and they voted in a particular way
0:44:53 > 0:44:57in the referendum.That's interesting because he was very
0:44:57 > 0:45:01specific, he said neoliberalism, or too much liberalism, free markets
0:45:01 > 0:45:05without protections, was the responsibility and fault of previous
0:45:05 > 0:45:08Labour British government.Previous governments but also governments
0:45:08 > 0:45:11across Europe as well. This adherence to neoliberalism, Mark
0:45:11 > 0:45:15Cridge, nation, we are seeing the consequences of it. Carillion is one
0:45:15 > 0:45:23example of that. He hit the nail on the head about how that alienating
0:45:23 > 0:45:26people, and people were not getting the benefits about how the economy
0:45:26 > 0:45:33was developing. As a result of that in the referendum they rejected.He
0:45:33 > 0:45:38was also very clear that the British can get a passporting deal from the
0:45:38 > 0:45:42City of London. You have said in the past that any deal over Brexit
0:45:42 > 0:45:44without passporting writes for financial services would be
0:45:44 > 0:45:48unacceptable.I'm really worried that if we don't get the passporting
0:45:48 > 0:45:52right it will impact upon our financial sector. But also about our
0:45:52 > 0:45:56services sector overall. That is something we have got to negotiate.
0:45:56 > 0:46:00He said they would set the Michel Barnier mandate in March. We will
0:46:00 > 0:46:06see what that mandate is but, yes, it is a worrying instance that is
0:46:06 > 0:46:09being cited.Very worrying because not only would it mean less taxes
0:46:09 > 0:46:13for a Labour government, it would be a big part of the British economy.
0:46:13 > 0:46:19It would cost jobs.If you are the Chancellor after Brexit was
0:46:19 > 0:46:22negotiated and the City did not get passporting writes what would that
0:46:22 > 0:46:26mean?It would cost jobs and undermine our financial sector. That
0:46:26 > 0:46:30is why there is a deal to be had. It isn't just the City of London and
0:46:30 > 0:46:33financial sector in London benefiting our own country, it
0:46:33 > 0:46:36benefits Europe as a whole because it brings together the opportunities
0:46:36 > 0:46:40of investors joining together and investing in Europe as well as in
0:46:40 > 0:46:45Britain. I think there is a deal to be had. I understand why President
0:46:45 > 0:46:48Macron has been hard-nosed about it at this stage but in the
0:46:48 > 0:46:51negotiations I think we will see a softening because they will be an
0:46:51 > 0:46:54increasing recognition of the joint benefits we get from passporting.Do
0:46:54 > 0:46:59you think he's bluffing?No, he is setting up certain parameters but I
0:46:59 > 0:47:03don't think it will dominate in the discussions about the mandate but we
0:47:03 > 0:47:07will see.If you were negotiating, in charge of the negotiations, you
0:47:07 > 0:47:11wouldn't accept any deal that didn't have passporting in it, or something
0:47:11 > 0:47:17like that?I set that as a redline. I said passporting, or the
0:47:17 > 0:47:21equivalent, basically. I think that is a deal to be had. I don't believe
0:47:21 > 0:47:26that our current government can secure that deal but I think we
0:47:26 > 0:47:28could in government.In those circumstances to get that kind of
0:47:28 > 0:47:32deal, would you, like Keir Starmer and Diane Abbott, he prepared for
0:47:32 > 0:47:35Britain to pay money in?It's interesting because we have already
0:47:35 > 0:47:42said certain institutions like Euratom, we need to pay our way
0:47:42 > 0:47:45because of the costs and get services in return. I'm not sure
0:47:45 > 0:47:49what President Macron means when he says we have to pay to get access on
0:47:49 > 0:47:54services.You have said in the past you wouldn't pay financially, purely
0:47:54 > 0:47:57for financial services to get access.I don't understand why we
0:47:57 > 0:48:00would have to pay. Does that mean we would have to charge them for access
0:48:00 > 0:48:05to our market as well? I think it is a negotiating ploy rather than a
0:48:05 > 0:48:08reality.He brought up again and again the Forde freedoms and Single
0:48:08 > 0:48:11Market. Can I ask you about something that puzzles lots of
0:48:11 > 0:48:14people. Jeremy Corbyn said repeatedly that you can be a member
0:48:14 > 0:48:21of the Single Market once you have left the EU, what is Norway? -- the
0:48:21 > 0:48:24Forde freedoms.Norway has access to the Single Market but it's not a
0:48:24 > 0:48:27full member in the sense it is a decision-making, it is a rule taker
0:48:27 > 0:48:31rather than real mega, that's what Jeremy means.When people say can we
0:48:31 > 0:48:35be a member of the Single Market? Would could be so long as we agreed
0:48:35 > 0:48:38we would not make the rules.You can have access to the Single Market.
0:48:38 > 0:48:42Effectively members of the Single Market.You will have access but not
0:48:42 > 0:48:45be a decision maker when it comes the rules which is important.Owen
0:48:45 > 0:48:49Smith, one of your Shadow Cabinet ministers, totally disagrees. He
0:48:49 > 0:48:52says he finds these comments slightly puzzling because it's
0:48:52 > 0:48:55clearly possible for us to be outside the EU and inside the Single
0:48:55 > 0:49:00Market, as is Norway and other countries. Is he wrong?He means
0:49:00 > 0:49:04access to the Single Market. The distinction fact is you will not be
0:49:04 > 0:49:09a decision-making, you will not be a party to make decisions.To that
0:49:09 > 0:49:11extent it is a semantic difference and an obvious one.It is quite
0:49:11 > 0:49:14important because there is a distinction between having access
0:49:14 > 0:49:18and then being a member where you are determined the rules of the
0:49:18 > 0:49:21future which is significant.In the circumstance of you being able to
0:49:21 > 0:49:26negotiate this, would you like us to become in effect, part of the Single
0:49:26 > 0:49:30Market? Not rule-makers. We are leaving the EU but really close
0:49:30 > 0:49:35accepting the Forde freedoms and paying in.
0:49:35 > 0:49:40We would like the benefits of the single market.But you have to give
0:49:40 > 0:49:48something back.I think there is a way in which we can negotiate around
0:49:48 > 0:49:53that which would be acceptable to our European partners, reform of the
0:49:53 > 0:49:57single market so it would not be the same single market access to a
0:49:57 > 0:50:01single market.That would involve meaning a certain amount of free
0:50:01 > 0:50:05movement, paying in, and certainly copying a lot of their directives.
0:50:05 > 0:50:08All of this is subject to negotiation but on freedom of
0:50:08 > 0:50:15movement we always said we wanted reform because we don't the
0:50:15 > 0:50:20exploitative employment that has forced down wages, we want
0:50:20 > 0:50:23protections. In terms of decision-making, of course we want
0:50:23 > 0:50:27to be party to that but that's about equivalence rules as well.Jeremy
0:50:27 > 0:50:34Corbyn has said that Carillion collapsed marks a watershed in our
0:50:34 > 0:50:39politics and raises the PFI issue. However, the people who
0:50:39 > 0:50:43turbo-charged the private finance initiative were the Labour
0:50:43 > 0:50:47government, 75% of those contracts were signed under Gordon Brown.It
0:50:47 > 0:50:51started with John Major, you are right New Labour took it up and over
0:50:51 > 0:50:56the last seven years it has continued on as well. One of my team
0:50:56 > 0:51:01dugout for me some of the speeches I made as far back as 1998 in
0:51:01 > 0:51:06Parliament and of the articles I wrote. I opposed private finance
0:51:06 > 0:51:12initiative, why? I said then, it is cheaper for us to use the state to
0:51:12 > 0:51:17borrow funds to fund public services rather than go to the private
0:51:17 > 0:51:21sector, in addition to that we will have control and ownership of the
0:51:21 > 0:51:25asset. I think PFI was wrong and said so from the beginning.The
0:51:25 > 0:51:30people promoting it said this is the only way here and now we can get the
0:51:30 > 0:51:35new schools and new hospitals and that innocence is fair enough, isn't
0:51:35 > 0:51:39it?I can understand the argument but it was wrong. It would have been
0:51:39 > 0:51:43cheaper, let me give you an example...Let me give you an
0:51:43 > 0:51:49example because you had hospital in Hillingdon and you said at the time,
0:51:49 > 0:51:55"I am not supportive of PFI schemes but if this is the way to secure the
0:51:55 > 0:52:00money, fair enough".That was the point I made time and time again in
0:52:00 > 0:52:06debates. You are forcing people into PFIs when they don't want one. If
0:52:06 > 0:52:12they don't go down the PFI route the patients will suffer.This was the
0:52:12 > 0:52:15dilemma, you were against the PFI principle but when you get a
0:52:15 > 0:52:21hospital in your own constituency, you are in favour of it.It is
0:52:21 > 0:52:25because we were forced into it and all the way along I said this is
0:52:25 > 0:52:29wrong, it won't work, it will cost more.Now you want to take those
0:52:29 > 0:52:35contracts back home, you said to the Conservative Party, back in-house.
0:52:35 > 0:52:39Do you accept that involves quite a large upfront payment?We have
0:52:39 > 0:52:43already got the upfront payment. The National Audit Office report this
0:52:43 > 0:52:48week said we are now committed to £200 billion worth of expenditure
0:52:48 > 0:52:54over the next 20, 25 years so that money is already there in terms of a
0:52:54 > 0:52:59liability we have got. What I'm saying is if we bring into public
0:52:59 > 0:53:05ownership the special vehicles, equity in these stakes is 10%, the
0:53:05 > 0:53:09rest 90% is debt, what we could do then is control then and refinance
0:53:09 > 0:53:13in a way that would save money and in the long run it would save money.
0:53:13 > 0:53:18The problem you have got is some pretty savage break clauses, penalty
0:53:18 > 0:53:22clauses, written into these contracts. I went on to the Treasury
0:53:22 > 0:53:26website and they give an example of one of these clauses, they say the
0:53:26 > 0:53:31contract around its financiers are fully compensated, no worse off than
0:53:31 > 0:53:41if the contract had
0:53:41 > 0:53:42if the contract had proceeded as expected.Departments across
0:53:42 > 0:53:45Whitehall are supposed to use those contracts to do PFIs. You take
0:53:45 > 0:53:47Transport for London, they terminate on PFI, they save nearly £500
0:53:47 > 0:53:51million. There will be some contracts with clauses, we will look
0:53:51 > 0:53:55at those but Parliament will determine the price we pay for the
0:53:55 > 0:53:58special-purpose vehicle, that's the first thing, and Parliament will
0:53:58 > 0:54:02determine the conditions for the future. I have warned against these
0:54:02 > 0:54:10for over 20 years.I am just arguing about the cost of bringing it back.
0:54:10 > 0:54:15The advice I'm saying to people, it will be cheaper now to bring the
0:54:15 > 0:54:18special-purpose vehicles into public ownership, Parliament will determine
0:54:18 > 0:54:23the price, we can renegotiate the terms of the debt there now and make
0:54:23 > 0:54:27it cheaper. That's what a lot of people do in their own lives, they
0:54:27 > 0:54:31renegotiate their mortgage to save money.Another conversation we have
0:54:31 > 0:54:36had over the years is the cost of renationalisation and you have never
0:54:36 > 0:54:41given me a figure anywhere like it, but now one of the admittedly right
0:54:41 > 0:54:46of centre leaning think tanks has kindly moved in to help.It is more
0:54:46 > 0:54:50than right of centre, it is almost a Department for the Conservative
0:54:50 > 0:54:55Party.If you won't give the figures other people will. There are lots of
0:54:55 > 0:55:01voters who look at the sky above and look at their taps and think why are
0:55:01 > 0:55:06we paying £86 billion to a private company to give us water, and they
0:55:06 > 0:55:12would like water to be re-nationalised but the cost would
0:55:12 > 0:55:19be £86 billion according to the CPS. Too high?The CPS is almost like a
0:55:19 > 0:55:22Department for the Conservative Satie, that report was written to
0:55:22 > 0:55:27Amber Rudd so hardly independent. What I'm saying is Parliament will
0:55:27 > 0:55:34determine the price that we pay.
0:55:34 > 0:55:36determine the price that we pay. Let me use this analogy because people
0:55:36 > 0:55:40need to understand the process of it. It's almost like buying a
0:55:40 > 0:55:45property. We go out and buy a house in London, the average price is half
0:55:45 > 0:55:51a million, we borrow that money from the bank. I rent that house out, it
0:55:51 > 0:55:55brings in rent so I have borrowed half a million but I have an offset
0:55:55 > 0:56:01of half a million. I rent it out, that rent comes in, I pay the
0:56:01 > 0:56:14mortgage, the rent will also cover income for
0:56:14 > 0:56:16income for myself but also it will cover a bit of repair maybe extend
0:56:16 > 0:56:18the property. That's what we will do here, bring them in-house, borrow
0:56:18 > 0:56:21the money to do that but the income that comes from those assets will
0:56:21 > 0:56:24cover that cost and enable us to reduce price and invest.Socialism
0:56:24 > 0:56:29is the language of priority, someone once said. As Labour Chancellor you
0:56:29 > 0:56:34have lots of call on money, lots of things on education, welfare and the
0:56:34 > 0:56:39NHS. Is it worth it to spend so much money to bring the PFI contracts in
0:56:39 > 0:56:47early?Yes, because at the moment the NHS, our education services and
0:56:47 > 0:56:53other services are being drained by the exploitation of this. Look at
0:56:53 > 0:56:57the National Audit Office report, it gives one example of schools, 40%
0:56:57 > 0:57:03above the cost than if we have borrowed as a state. One hospital
0:57:03 > 0:57:0770% above costs. Some of our local health authorities are paying out
0:57:07 > 0:57:1320% of their income.There is one other thing I must ask about this
0:57:13 > 0:57:17week. Andrea Leadsom, the Leader of the House of Commons, made a strong
0:57:17 > 0:57:20personal attack on nukes, about comments you have made about Esther
0:57:20 > 0:57:28McVey. "This Is truly evil, disgusting. Seriously, is this
0:57:28 > 0:57:34Jeremy Corbyn's kind of gender politics? This has to stop"
0:57:34 > 0:57:37Jeremy Corbyn's kind of gender politics? This has to stop".I am
0:57:37 > 0:57:42surprised that Andrea, I like her, she's a good woman.The problem is
0:57:42 > 0:57:47the audio has become available of that meeting. You were quoting
0:57:47 > 0:57:51someone else, but somehow quoting them approvingly.Of course I
0:57:51 > 0:57:59wasn't. It was a stand-up thing and I was saying this is how rough
0:57:59 > 0:58:02politics is up there. Remember, a couple of weeks later in Parliament
0:58:02 > 0:58:06I got up and made a statement and said of course I don't agree with
0:58:06 > 0:58:13that, I don't wish harm to anybody and refuted it completely.We can
0:58:13 > 0:58:18play the audio, would you like me to play the audio?You don't need to, I
0:58:18 > 0:58:24know exactly what was on it. That was recorded by The Mail, it did
0:58:24 > 0:58:28nothing until Ed Miliband was getting up to make a major speech,
0:58:28 > 0:58:32then they ran the story to spike his speech, it was a political
0:58:32 > 0:58:40manoeuvre.There was laughter in the background.I was saying look how
0:58:40 > 0:58:44rough politics is up there, it's ridiculous. When people
0:58:44 > 0:58:49misinterpreted it, I got up and said of course I don't support this and I
0:58:49 > 0:58:54wish harm nobody.You completely disagree with Esther McVey's
0:58:54 > 0:58:58politics but can you now apologise to her, if she was upset as she
0:58:58 > 0:59:02would have been by this?I said then I didn't support what was happening,
0:59:02 > 0:59:07of course I didn't and it was for those people who make that statement
0:59:07 > 0:59:15if they wish to make that apology. I made a statement in saying of course
0:59:15 > 0:59:18I don't support this, I wish harm to nobody but what I do want people to
0:59:18 > 0:59:21think about is the policies the Government was pursuing against
0:59:21 > 0:59:27disabled people who suffered so much as a result of those policies.Thank
0:59:27 > 0:59:35you for talking to us. Coming up after this programme...
0:59:35 > 0:59:40Join us at ten from Cambridge where we will be debating President
0:59:40 > 0:59:46Trump's first year. And here we will be asking if inequality functions as
0:59:46 > 0:59:53an insensitive. Is the urge to better your neighbour quality and
0:59:53 > 0:59:55not a sin?
0:59:55 > 0:59:56That's all for this Sunday.
0:59:56 > 0:59:58Thanks to all my guests.
0:59:58 > 1:00:05Lots more next week, join me then.