0:00:08 > 0:00:10Good morning.
0:00:10 > 0:00:14This week, we are promised, a crucial
0:00:14 > 0:00:16confrontation between the two Tory views on Brexit at a War Cabinet
0:00:16 > 0:00:18chaired by the Prime Minister.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21Those who want a decisive break with the EU are issuing menacing
0:00:21 > 0:00:24briefings about what will happen to Theresa May if she doesn't
0:00:24 > 0:00:25do what they tell her.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27Those who want a much closer relationship with Europe,
0:00:27 > 0:00:30like the Chancellor, are digging in too.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34Mrs May's third way, a generous bespoke deal,
0:00:34 > 0:00:40is beginning to look a bit like a unicorn: glimpsed, rumoured,
0:00:40 > 0:00:48but never seen and suspiciously shy.
0:00:56 > 0:00:59I'm joined by the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, who has, perhaps,
0:00:59 > 0:01:04seen this bespoke deal and could even describe it to us.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06And by the Liberal Democrat leader Sir Vince Cable -
0:01:06 > 0:01:09the man who wants to be the British Emmanuel Macron.
0:01:09 > 0:01:16I'll ask him how it's going.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21Plus, Gerry Adams, who is standing down as president of Sinn Fein for
0:01:21 > 0:01:29the looks back over a controversial and tumultuous life.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32But we'll be talking about Labour too.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35The London Borough of Haringey has been rocked by a huge row over
0:01:35 > 0:01:36private money and public housing.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38Claire Kober, who's stepping down as council leader,
0:01:38 > 0:01:40is in the studio this morning as well.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43And reviewing the news, Munira Mirza, author,
0:01:43 > 0:01:46blogger and a former Conservative Deputy Mayor of London.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49And in the week when Buzzfeed had a big Brexit scoop,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51their UK editor in chief Janine Gibson.
0:01:51 > 0:01:52But first the headlines with Tina Daheley.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54Good morning.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57MPs have warned against cutting the number of Royal Marines
0:01:57 > 0:02:01or the ships they use to carry out beach landings.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04The Government is reported to be considering axing up to 2,000
0:02:04 > 0:02:06Marines, along with the Royal Navy's two amphibious assault ships.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10The Commons Defence Select Committee says such a move would undermine one
0:02:10 > 0:02:12of Britain's elite fighting forces.
0:02:12 > 0:02:20The Conservative MP, Julian Lewis, is chairman of the committee.
0:02:20 > 0:02:28There are only about 6500 Royal Marines but they supply 40% of our
0:02:28 > 0:02:33special forces personnel. Think of the knock-on effect and why is any
0:02:33 > 0:02:37of this happening? It is happening because there are black holes in the
0:02:37 > 0:02:39defence budget.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41A senior Conservative MP and Leave supporter has accused ministers
0:02:41 > 0:02:43of being vague and divided over Brexit.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45Writing in the Sunday Telegraph, Bernard Jenkin said civil servants
0:02:45 > 0:02:49deserved an "unambiguous and united direction" from ministers,
0:02:49 > 0:02:52singling out the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, for criticism.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54Senior ministers are due to meet this week to discuss
0:02:54 > 0:02:59the future trade relationship between the UK and EU.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02The Prime Minister is expected to announce plans to make it
0:03:02 > 0:03:04an offence under electoral law to intimidate parliamentary
0:03:04 > 0:03:07candidates and their campaigners.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11In a speech later this week, Mrs May will say recent cases
0:03:11 > 0:03:14of politicians being abused - in the street and online -
0:03:14 > 0:03:17risk toxifying public debate.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20Scotland Yard is looking into two more allegations of sexual assault
0:03:20 > 0:03:23against the Hollywood film producer Harvey Weinstein.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26It brings the total number of women who have reported him
0:03:26 > 0:03:29to British police to nine.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31The claims came as the Hollywood actress, Uma Thurman, also alleged
0:03:31 > 0:03:33he assaulted her on two occasions.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37Mr Weinstein's team say the accusations are false.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40An Olympic ice hockey team, with players from both North
0:03:40 > 0:03:44and South Korea, will compete for the first time later today.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47The all-women's team will take on Sweden in a friendly
0:03:47 > 0:03:50match before the start of the Winter Olympics next week.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52North Korea's participation is being seen as a show
0:03:52 > 0:03:55of reconciliation with the South.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57That's all from me.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59The next news on BBC One is at one o'clock.
0:03:59 > 0:04:00Back to you, Andrew.
0:04:00 > 0:04:05Thank you.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09We are going to look at some of those stories in more detail but now
0:04:09 > 0:04:14look at the headlines on the front pages. England expects says the
0:04:14 > 0:04:19Sunday Telegraph. Also the interview. Theresa May is told,
0:04:19 > 0:04:27don't let Hammond ruin Brexit. The Sunday Times has the doping scandal
0:04:27 > 0:04:33hitting the winter Olympics. They also claim that three Brexiteers art
0:04:33 > 0:04:40or plotting to get rid of Theresa May. Not a lot of detail but making
0:04:40 > 0:04:44menacing noises. -- are all plotting. In the Observer and its
0:04:44 > 0:04:52new tabloid form there is the civil service and Andrew Turnbull hitting
0:04:52 > 0:04:55back against those people saying it is reminiscent of the stab in the
0:04:55 > 0:05:06back myth in Germany. And Uma Thurman on almost every front page.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11It is with some dread we look again at a chance by Oris Johnson, Michael
0:05:11 > 0:05:17Gove and Jacob Rees Mogg. The Sunday Times have illustrated this with a
0:05:17 > 0:05:23picture of them wearing musketeer hats, trying to cheer us up a bit.
0:05:23 > 0:05:31-- Boris Johnson. Not his hugely detailed story. There are a couple
0:05:31 > 0:05:38of Gori quotes about the cavalry is coming and we are ready for a
0:05:38 > 0:05:45contest and there will be a war. It feels like a tactical move.Very few
0:05:45 > 0:05:50details and scepticism. When they say, but we have the numbers in the
0:05:50 > 0:05:56Tory Party for our wing of the argument that they are right, aren't
0:05:56 > 0:06:01they?This story looks a bit like fake news. It is based on quotes
0:06:01 > 0:06:07from MPs not named. I am fairly well acquainted with the goings-on in
0:06:07 > 0:06:13Westminster and it does not ring true. Certainly not this plot. It
0:06:13 > 0:06:21feels very unlikely makes for a very good newspaper headline. Both
0:06:21 > 0:06:29borrowers and Jeffrey Rees Mogg box office. -- Jacob Rees Mogg. To the
0:06:29 > 0:06:37credit of Theresa May she was a Remainer and has committed to
0:06:37 > 0:06:43leaving the EU for that she is trying hard with the parliamentary
0:06:43 > 0:06:52majority against Brexit. That is the tension.Boris is basically a
0:06:52 > 0:06:56blushing violet are not interested in promoting himself.I do not think
0:06:56 > 0:07:01he is involved in this plot.There is a real choice for Theresa May to
0:07:01 > 0:07:05make about the customs union and which way she is going. I joked
0:07:05 > 0:07:09about her option being like a unicorn, rustling in the forest and
0:07:09 > 0:07:13you cannot see it. We are told it's there but we are beginning to
0:07:13 > 0:07:17believe it is not there. Quite soon she has to come down off the fence
0:07:17 > 0:07:21and say she will be sticking closely to the EU after we leave she will
0:07:21 > 0:07:26not be sticking closely at all. I is a genuine choice for the country.We
0:07:26 > 0:07:30are seeing a lot of jostling on the front pages about where people think
0:07:30 > 0:07:36she should be a question. It is not going to be fake news. Tim Shipman,
0:07:36 > 0:07:40who has written it, is a very good and well sourced journalist he has
0:07:40 > 0:07:45not made it up.He has suggested this is a warning from some Tory
0:07:45 > 0:07:49MPs. That is not quite the same is a conspiracy from these three
0:07:49 > 0:07:54individuals. We have to be careful, to be honest about it. It is true,
0:07:54 > 0:07:59there are people who are very disappointed with her and want the
0:07:59 > 0:08:02debate to move on. We have been saying that for the last six months
0:08:02 > 0:08:08have it cannot possibly last and then it moves on.We have been
0:08:08 > 0:08:11watching Jacob Rees Mogg in the scuffle at Bristol University but
0:08:11 > 0:08:18the Mail on Sunday has a big double page interview with him.It is a
0:08:18 > 0:08:24remarkable scene of Jacob Rees Mogg speaking at a university.He has
0:08:24 > 0:08:29been cool about it, saying it is overdone.He has handled it well he
0:08:29 > 0:08:33has not overplayed the sense of being evicted and has shrugged it
0:08:33 > 0:08:39off. People arrived wearing masks, clearly wanting to cause trouble. He
0:08:39 > 0:08:43went up to them and started to talk to them and reason with him.
0:08:43 > 0:08:51Actually think there is a big issue about on university campuses and
0:08:51 > 0:08:55students trying to close down debate, which is very worrying. His
0:08:55 > 0:09:02way of dealing with it is the right one.His message on Brexit is clear.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06He has cast doubt on the Treasury forecast report that was leaked this
0:09:06 > 0:09:11week. He owned a number of other Tory MPs have said the civil service
0:09:11 > 0:09:17is not acting impartially. There is another story in the Observer of
0:09:17 > 0:09:25that.Civil servants getting involved? Can I ask you a little bit
0:09:25 > 0:09:30about Jacob Rees Mogg? You understand all of theirs. The video
0:09:30 > 0:09:34of this tussle, very short and hard to see what was going on. It has
0:09:34 > 0:09:39been shed all over Twitter and Facebook for about 12 hours now it
0:09:39 > 0:09:43has done Jacob Rees Mogg presumably quite a lot of good.There are
0:09:43 > 0:09:47several perspectives on the video you can find different versions of
0:09:47 > 0:09:51an different media outlets will promote different versions, as with
0:09:51 > 0:09:58everything. He comes out of it just fine. He did not come well out of
0:09:58 > 0:10:04casting doubt over the document last week and just repeatedly lying. He
0:10:04 > 0:10:09did not like what the document said. He did not like that there was a
0:10:09 > 0:10:14good -- no good scenario and he lied about the way it came. I feel
0:10:14 > 0:10:18strongly this war on the civil service has become an ideological
0:10:18 > 0:10:21position where actually you have to trust the people who have gone and
0:10:21 > 0:10:26done the work. If you don't like them, that is really troubling that
0:10:26 > 0:10:39is what it said.Sir Andrew Turnbull is
0:10:41 > 0:10:44the main person quoted, head of the civil service back in the day.Very
0:10:44 > 0:10:46experienced and mostly keeps his mouth shut. It is interesting that
0:10:46 > 0:10:48he has done this. He and another former head of the civil servants,
0:10:48 > 0:10:50formerly involved in the civil service, Robin Butler.He was
0:10:50 > 0:10:54involved, very eminent.Suggesting these attacks are reminiscent of
0:10:54 > 0:11:011930s Germany. The important thing to remember is despite the
0:11:01 > 0:11:04indignation, where the civil service is being accused of not being
0:11:04 > 0:11:08impartial, someone in the civil service did leak this document with
0:11:08 > 0:11:14a view to implementing policy and that suggests there is a view... You
0:11:14 > 0:11:20are busy involved crucially in this story. I presume something that was
0:11:20 > 0:11:29mentioned...It was not left on a photocopier, was it?Whether it was
0:11:29 > 0:11:33stolen by one of your journalists, I don't know.You have chosen another
0:11:33 > 0:11:39story about Facebook and the future of British elections and so one.
0:11:39 > 0:11:44That has gone upside down. Your tablet is no better than my tablet.
0:11:44 > 0:11:53It is my tablet. There you go.This is a story we published last night
0:11:53 > 0:11:57about the Facebook news feed. It does play into the whole thing about
0:11:57 > 0:12:01whether a fact is biased or the fact that you don't like the fact is
0:12:01 > 0:12:08biased. Facebook's news feed, they said they will change the algorithm
0:12:08 > 0:12:16to show less inflammatory news stories and more pictures of your
0:12:17 > 0:12:21lovely pets. Everyone is panicking about the dilation of traffic.
0:12:21 > 0:12:27Instead of our lovely news stories, it will be pictures of your baby
0:12:27 > 0:12:32cousin. This is not just a journalism problem, it is a politics
0:12:32 > 0:12:35problem. It is particularly a problem for people worrying about
0:12:35 > 0:12:41the next election, which I know we all hope and trust is a few years
0:12:41 > 0:12:45away.To be clear about this, if someone on Facebook decide we're
0:12:45 > 0:12:49getting too many stories about social housing, they can change the
0:12:49 > 0:12:54algorithm to insure far fewer can appear.I am sure if Facebook were
0:12:54 > 0:12:58here, they would say they would not take a subject or a biased or
0:12:58 > 0:13:02anything like that to change it. Because of the great success of
0:13:02 > 0:13:11highly talented direct campaigning, in the Labour Party, the Tories have
0:13:11 > 0:13:17put in a lot of effort into upgrading digital marketing. As Jim
0:13:17 > 0:13:20points out in the story, our political editor, they may be
0:13:20 > 0:13:24changing their campaigning for the last election.They are a bit behind
0:13:24 > 0:13:31the curve on all of this. Finally, can I talk about the Momentum story.
0:13:31 > 0:13:35We will be talking to Claire Kober in a moment but the Sunday Times has
0:13:35 > 0:13:43done a big operation on this.Here we go. A Labour council, where the
0:13:43 > 0:13:49leader has now walked away because she said she was essentially being
0:13:49 > 0:13:52targeted by Momentum activists. It is interesting that this week it is
0:13:52 > 0:13:56presented by a number of commentators as a working-class
0:13:56 > 0:14:00takeover of labour. Actually, I think it is the opposite. Claire
0:14:00 > 0:14:09Kober has said the kinds of people attacking her work whitehead men.
0:14:09 > 0:14:15Momentum denied doing all of this stuff. It is a favoured media story
0:14:15 > 0:14:19now, the wickedness of Momentum.You have to be honest about what is
0:14:19 > 0:14:23really happening but there is a bigger shift in the Labour Party,
0:14:23 > 0:14:27with the changes in the NEC, the way in which people who have been
0:14:27 > 0:14:31formally banned from the Labour Party are being allowed back in.
0:14:31 > 0:14:36This goes to the heart of the issue, where the working class is in the
0:14:36 > 0:14:43Labour Party. It seems to be more and more removed from that.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46and more removed from that.Reeta Chakrabarti wrote this week, it is
0:14:46 > 0:14:52one person's at it. For residents it is a housing problem in that area
0:14:52 > 0:14:57and it is that every generation.A theme we will pick up in a moment.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59Thank you.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Now, picking up from that Haringey story...
0:15:01 > 0:15:03Councillor Claire Kober, shortly to depart after ten years
0:15:03 > 0:15:05leading Haringey Council.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08Before we get onto the issue at the centre of all of this great you said
0:15:08 > 0:15:13you suffered bullying and abuse. What do you mean by that?I had been
0:15:13 > 0:15:18a leader for ten years, a borough leader and as any politician in a
0:15:18 > 0:15:21front-line role, you become pretty resilient. My experience has been at
0:15:21 > 0:15:27have experienced more threats, more bullying, more intimidation than in
0:15:27 > 0:15:33the previous eight years put together.And sexist as well?
0:15:33 > 0:15:37Absolutely sexist. It runs from the way I was treated by the National
0:15:37 > 0:15:40executive of my party just last week and I don't believe a man would have
0:15:40 > 0:15:43been treated in the same way, through two examples of in Council
0:15:43 > 0:15:48meetings were Labour Party members have been ending -- at the end the
0:15:48 > 0:15:53meeting had shouted at me and sunk a police song, every breath you take,
0:15:53 > 0:16:01as a means of intimidating me. That is a song about stalking.
0:16:01 > 0:16:07Who do you blame for this?I point to a political toxic culture, I
0:16:07 > 0:16:10don't blame individuals because if you look at these acts in isolation
0:16:10 > 0:16:14they don't look too significant but when you put them together you see a
0:16:14 > 0:16:21whole culture. We see it in the way Jacob Rees-Mogg was treated at the
0:16:21 > 0:16:24weekend, in the wake Diane Abbott receives abuse, in the fact the
0:16:24 > 0:16:27political editor of the BBC has to take bodyguards to Labour Party
0:16:27 > 0:16:33conference.A lot of people have said this is caused by Momentum, who
0:16:33 > 0:16:40deny any involvement. You accused John one of calling you incompetent,
0:16:40 > 0:16:47is there not a
0:16:48 > 0:16:53is there not a danger of...A senior Labour council leader, died on the
0:16:53 > 0:17:00role for a long time and I think that is outrageous behaviour.Do you
0:17:00 > 0:17:03have hard evidence and if so why have you not complain to the party
0:17:03 > 0:17:08because there is a procedure. You could complain formally but you have
0:17:08 > 0:17:17chosen not to do that.To take on example of Momentum's behaviour, I
0:17:17 > 0:17:20proposed a motion against anti-Semitism. Lament called a
0:17:20 > 0:17:25demonstration to that meeting to protest against that motion --
0:17:25 > 0:17:30momentum.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35momentum.Demonstrations are lawful. But we are screamed and shouted up
0:17:35 > 0:17:41in that meeting, members were told they would be seen in their
0:17:41 > 0:17:46constituency Labour parties.So why did you not complain to the Labour
0:17:46 > 0:17:49Party?Because in complaining to the Labour Party I would complain to the
0:17:49 > 0:17:54very body I feel most disillusioned by which is the national executive
0:17:54 > 0:17:58committee. Why would I complain to people who have treated me in this
0:17:58 > 0:18:03way?Let's turn to the issue itself, this Haringey development vehicle.
0:18:03 > 0:18:10You got into bed as it were with an Australian property company and a
0:18:10 > 0:18:13lot of locals feel that company was going to demolish their houses and
0:18:13 > 0:18:17they would not be provided with sufficient quantities of low-cost
0:18:17 > 0:18:20housing so they could stay in the area and they would have to leave
0:18:20 > 0:18:25the area, hence the phrase social cleansing.We need to look at the
0:18:25 > 0:18:29housing crisis in my borough, 9000 families on the waiting list without
0:18:29 > 0:18:36the security of a home. 3000 families in temporary accommodation,
0:18:36 > 0:18:39more children than ever being referred to social services because
0:18:39 > 0:18:45of their housing situation. What do we do about that? Councils do not
0:18:45 > 0:18:49have the power or the resources or the expertise to deal with that on
0:18:49 > 0:18:54their own so do we say ideological age as the Labour Party we believe
0:18:54 > 0:19:01we can only work as the state, or do we say there is compromise but we
0:19:01 > 0:19:06have to work in partnership in order to deliver?There are lawful lot of
0:19:06 > 0:19:11local people who don't buy that solution and they are not limited to
0:19:11 > 0:19:18the hard left. David Lammy, the local MP, who is not a Jeremy Corbyn
0:19:18 > 0:19:25supporter, says "I'm not convinced it will deliver the affordable homes
0:19:25 > 0:19:32we need in Tottenham." If you look at the elephant and Castle
0:19:32 > 0:19:37development in he gate, they were promised there would be 500 housing
0:19:37 > 0:19:42units, turned out there were only 87. The same company you are working
0:19:42 > 0:19:48with, and you see the same pattern all over the place. Big promises by
0:19:48 > 0:19:54developers who come to local people and they are not there.This was not
0:19:54 > 0:19:56the traditional development agreement, it was a partnership
0:19:56 > 0:20:02deal. However, I understand there are risks. You talk about the local
0:20:02 > 0:20:05community, there has been noise around this so I spent the summer
0:20:05 > 0:20:10with a group of councillors knocking on 450 doors on the various dates
0:20:10 > 0:20:17affected by these schemes.And lots of people opposed it.Actually we
0:20:17 > 0:20:20found only a handful of people with concerns but I heard many more
0:20:20 > 0:20:25people asking when they could move, saying their housing situation is
0:20:25 > 0:20:30intolerable, and we don't see any other way through this.Let me read
0:20:30 > 0:20:35you something Rita chakra Barty wrote, "Please ditch the cliches
0:20:35 > 0:20:44about suburban revolutionaries, the death of HDV is a victory for
0:20:44 > 0:20:56democracy of the machine politics and victory ..."There are still
0:20:56 > 0:21:00thousands of families with no housing security and this week they
0:21:00 > 0:21:05have even less. Being told this is a victory when the activists who are
0:21:05 > 0:21:08campaigning against it have no alternative that will develop
0:21:08 > 0:21:14anything like the scale housing to me feels like the politics of jam
0:21:14 > 0:21:21tomorrow and that feels acceptable. Isn't the truth about this but you
0:21:21 > 0:21:28have left because you are losing?I have been a loyal party member for
0:21:28 > 0:21:3220 years to every Labour leader. I haven't spoken out against any
0:21:32 > 0:21:36Labour leader but I have been in a role in ten years in a borough that
0:21:36 > 0:21:42has faced problems and my politics is of course defined by pragmatism
0:21:42 > 0:21:45and problem solving because I want to make life better. I worry about
0:21:45 > 0:21:50the fact we are moving into an area where the politics of ideology, of
0:21:50 > 0:21:54blinkered dogma will tell the politics of pragmatism and I say the
0:21:54 > 0:22:00only losers in that scenario are the communities that need a Labour
0:22:00 > 0:22:03government most.Thank you for talking to us.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05A little later on the Sunday Politics, Sarah Smith will be
0:22:05 > 0:22:08speaking to Shadow Health Secretary Jonathan Ashworth about NHS funding
0:22:08 > 0:22:09and those events in Haringey too.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11And the Conservative chairman Brandon Lewis will be
0:22:11 > 0:22:14talking about the future of his party and the Government.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17That's the Sunday Politics here on BBC One at 11 o'clock.
0:22:17 > 0:22:18And so to the weather.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20It's been warm, balmy, sun-kissed.
0:22:20 > 0:22:21But sadly not in Britain.
0:22:21 > 0:22:27Over to Ben Rich in the weather studio.
0:22:28 > 0:22:33Sun-kissed we might just about manage, balmy we certainly won't
0:22:33 > 0:22:37over the next few days. It will feel absolutely like winter, cold enough
0:22:37 > 0:22:44today for wintry showers in Aberdeenshire this morning. Eastern
0:22:44 > 0:22:49areas seeing the lion's share of the cloud. Sleet and snow over high
0:22:49 > 0:22:55ground. Further west more sunshine. Light winds mean six or 7 degrees in
0:22:55 > 0:22:58Belfast won't feel too bad but in London you might get seven on the
0:22:58 > 0:23:02thermometer and it will feel more like freezing because it will be
0:23:02 > 0:23:05windy towards the south and south-east. Through tonight the
0:23:05 > 0:23:09winds will bring wintry showers, mostly snow showers into Monday
0:23:09 > 0:23:14morning across East Anglia and the south-east. A few centimetres of
0:23:14 > 0:23:19snow is possible. Elsewhere fog patches and a cold night, but it is
0:23:19 > 0:23:22in the eastern areas where we could have disruption tomorrow morning.
0:23:22 > 0:23:29Snow showers and ice as well, some of those showers drifting further
0:23:29 > 0:23:34west but tomorrow a lovely looking day. Crisp and cold but sunny. As we
0:23:34 > 0:23:39look deeper into the coming week, it remains cold with widespread frost
0:23:39 > 0:23:44by night and just about wherever you are there is the chance for some
0:23:44 > 0:23:45snow. Certainly nothing
0:23:45 > 0:23:47are there is the chance for some snow. Certainly nothing balmy in the
0:23:47 > 0:23:54outlook. The man whose news is mostly chilly!
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Now, this spring marks 30 years of the Liberal Democrats.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59People keep talking these days about a new centre third force
0:23:59 > 0:24:00in British politics.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02But they don't generally mean the Lib Dems.
0:24:02 > 0:24:03Why not?
0:24:03 > 0:24:05In the latest of our leader interviews,
0:24:05 > 0:24:06Sir Vince Cable joins me now.
0:24:06 > 0:24:10Can I start by reading something Paddy Ashdown said recently, talking
0:24:10 > 0:24:16about the Conservatives, "According government after this lot is now
0:24:16 > 0:24:20completely unavoidable unless the centre gets its act together,
0:24:20 > 0:24:26creating a people's movement. Emmanuel Macron is the model." Do
0:24:26 > 0:24:31you agree with that?Partly, that defines the threat to Britain from
0:24:31 > 0:24:34the extremes on the opportunity for people with a sensible middle ground
0:24:34 > 0:24:38opinion but of course we are not France, we have a different voting
0:24:38 > 0:24:42system. I think the political upheaval we are going to get this
0:24:42 > 0:24:47year in the wake of Brexit does indeed present major opportunities
0:24:47 > 0:24:52and
0:24:53 > 0:24:55and the Liberal Democrats are there, we are well established party. We
0:24:55 > 0:24:57have record levels of membership, it is expanding, younger even than the
0:24:57 > 0:25:02Labour Party and its demographic and we are doing well on the ground.But
0:25:02 > 0:25:10not quite according to Paddy, because who -- it was asked who is
0:25:10 > 0:25:14the British Macron, and he said "There isn't one. I was saying to
0:25:14 > 0:25:19someone the other day John the Baptist has arrived, the public is
0:25:19 > 0:25:25hungry, but Jesus Christ won't turn up". He doesn't seem to have faith
0:25:25 > 0:25:29in the Liberal Democrats.I'm certainly not claiming to be Jesus
0:25:29 > 0:25:34Christ! But I am leading a party that is fundamentally right, United
0:25:34 > 0:25:39and clear on Brexit. We are winning the public argument which is
0:25:39 > 0:25:43essentially we have a vote on the final deal and I am very comfortable
0:25:43 > 0:25:50I am in the right place. I'm currently trying to ask the Labour
0:25:50 > 0:25:54Party to come out and support this position.When you became leader,
0:25:54 > 0:25:59you said you would bring big ideas and rejuvenate the party, what is
0:25:59 > 0:26:04your biggest idea, apart from Brexit?Tomorrow we will be
0:26:04 > 0:26:09launching your views on health. We have withdrawn on ten high-level
0:26:09 > 0:26:16people with experience in the health service. We will be presenting a set
0:26:16 > 0:26:19of proposals which relate to the financial needs of the health
0:26:19 > 0:26:25service. And put it on a sustainable basis. I think a lot of people would
0:26:25 > 0:26:29find that package attractive.Are you going to ask for a different
0:26:29 > 0:26:35kind of taxation to fund the NHS? Because if not it's what everyone
0:26:35 > 0:26:39else is saying.It is not what everyone else is saying but it is
0:26:39 > 0:26:44built around the idea we have to have a dedicated form of taxation.
0:26:44 > 0:26:50Earmarked tax of some kind?That principle, and there are people
0:26:50 > 0:26:55around arguing for that.You talked about Brexit before that. The
0:26:55 > 0:26:58trouble is if you look at the polling, and John Curtis who is the
0:26:58 > 0:27:04guru of these things, says people are not changing their minds about
0:27:04 > 0:27:09Brexit, there is no great driving the country for second referendum.
0:27:09 > 0:27:13They think you are wrong on the second but right on the first.
0:27:13 > 0:27:18Polling suggests people haven't moved great deal, although there is
0:27:18 > 0:27:27a bit of a shift to Remain. There is a move on the fact that people feel
0:27:27 > 0:27:30the Government is making a mess of the negotiations, and supporting
0:27:30 > 0:27:37vote on the final deal, and that will be crucial.There is a lot of
0:27:37 > 0:27:40support for a vote on the final deal in the House of Commons but the
0:27:40 > 0:27:45second referendum is a step beyond that. You have a dozen MPs. The
0:27:45 > 0:27:50Labour leader made it clear he is against a second referendum, so are
0:27:50 > 0:27:59the Tories, therefore in practical terms it is a dead duck, isn't it?
0:27:59 > 0:28:04Jeremy Corbyn is crucial to this. The vast majority of his MPs, party
0:28:04 > 0:28:09supporters, are very concerned about the fact he hasn't opposed Brexit.
0:28:09 > 0:28:13He's effectively worked in collusion with Theresa May and her government.
0:28:13 > 0:28:17There is a simmering anger about that and I think as we get through
0:28:17 > 0:28:22this year and come closer to the final decision, as it becomes clear
0:28:22 > 0:28:27that we are going to get a bad deal from these negotiations, he will be
0:28:27 > 0:28:31under enormous pressure to agree to support a referendum on the final
0:28:31 > 0:28:38deal and I think the Labour Party will come round to it, as will a
0:28:38 > 0:28:40significant number of dissident Conservatives.It seems pretty clear
0:28:40 > 0:28:45it is hard to imagine how we will not formally leave the EU in March
0:28:45 > 0:28:49next year, it is quite close now, and I'm wondering what happens to
0:28:49 > 0:28:54the Lib Dems after that, do you become the Return party?I don't
0:28:54 > 0:29:02agree it is inevitable.Highly likely though.The probability is it
0:29:02 > 0:29:05will happen, but there is a possibility it won't. We are not
0:29:05 > 0:29:10just an anti-Brexit party, we have a wide range of policies, apart from
0:29:10 > 0:29:16the issues on health, I have been setting out our views on the extreme
0:29:16 > 0:29:19inequalities of wealth, I have focused on homelessness over the
0:29:19 > 0:29:23Christmas period and how we will deal with that so we are broadly
0:29:23 > 0:29:26based party with a liberal democratic agenda and that will
0:29:26 > 0:29:31develop whether or not Brexit happens.But if Brexit happens, will
0:29:31 > 0:29:37you be a party campaigning to return to the EU?Returning to the EU wants
0:29:37 > 0:29:42Britain has left would be much more difficult than staying in. So not
0:29:42 > 0:29:49necessarily? Not necessarily. There is a set of hurdles you would have
0:29:49 > 0:29:53to cross to rejoin and we would have to rethink their position at that
0:29:53 > 0:29:57stage but it is not inevitable. There is a high possibility this
0:29:57 > 0:30:03whole extremely damaging process can be stopped.Are you enjoying the
0:30:03 > 0:30:11job?Yes, I am.Really?You may have forgotten but a year ago I was out
0:30:11 > 0:30:17of work, going round book Festival is promoting my novel.A wonderful
0:30:17 > 0:30:24life!Look, I have been in politics in some form for over half a
0:30:24 > 0:30:29century.And you have got the job you always wanted. A bit like your
0:30:29 > 0:30:33friend Menzies Campbell or Gordon Brown, perhaps not at the right
0:30:33 > 0:30:36moment, perhaps it has come too late when the party is in the doldrums
0:30:36 > 0:30:41and it is hard to turn it round.I think the timing issue is right but
0:30:41 > 0:30:46not in the way you mean. I'm very fortunate I'm in this position,
0:30:46 > 0:30:51probably one of the most important turning points of British political
0:30:51 > 0:30:55history, and I and my party have an opportunity to be a critical player
0:30:55 > 0:30:59in that so actually yes I am happy to be here.We assume the next
0:30:59 > 0:31:05election will be in 2022, will you be leading the Liberal Democrats at
0:31:05 > 0:31:09that point?Yes, I am here for the duration. One of the problems is we
0:31:09 > 0:31:14have no idea when the next election will be. It may go four and a half
0:31:14 > 0:31:20years, it could be some time next year if the current book evils in
0:31:20 > 0:31:25the Tory party get out of control but we don't know.Sir Vince Cable,
0:31:25 > 0:31:28as always a pleasure to talk to you.
0:31:28 > 0:31:30Few political lives divide opinion like Gerry Adams.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33For some, he's a man of blood who defended many IRA
0:31:33 > 0:31:35atrocities during The Troubles in Northern Ireland, to others,
0:31:35 > 0:31:37a courageous peacemaker who was instrumental
0:31:37 > 0:31:39in the Good Friday Agreement 20 years ago.
0:31:39 > 0:31:44After 35 years as President of Sinn Fein, Mr Adams is standing
0:31:44 > 0:31:46down this month and handing over to a new generation
0:31:46 > 0:31:48of Republican leaders.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51I sat down with him last week in Dundalk, near the Irish border,
0:31:51 > 0:31:54to reflect on his life campaigning for a united Ireland.
0:31:54 > 0:31:59I began by asking him whether he had failed in that endeavour.
0:31:59 > 0:32:03No, because when I joined Sinn Fein, which is over 50 years ago,
0:32:03 > 0:32:08it was banned, it was outlawed.
0:32:08 > 0:32:12There was no prospect really of a strategy for Irish unity.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15If I look back now, half a million people vote for Sinn Fein.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18We're the second largest party in the North.
0:32:18 > 0:32:25There's now a peaceful way to get Irish unity.
0:32:25 > 0:32:27Your old comrade Martin McGuinness never saw it.
0:32:27 > 0:32:29Do you think you will see it?
0:32:29 > 0:32:30Yes, if I live long enough.
0:32:30 > 0:32:33You know what?
0:32:33 > 0:32:35Martin's passing, I suppose, proved to all of us you can't be
0:32:35 > 0:32:38certain about anything.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41I miss Martin every single day.
0:32:41 > 0:32:43So, is an Irish Republic, is Irish unity inevitable?
0:32:43 > 0:32:45No, it isn't.
0:32:45 > 0:32:47It's only going to happen if we work at it.
0:32:47 > 0:32:51I come from a very, very straightforward position.
0:32:51 > 0:32:56I want to see an end to the British connection with Ireland.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59How much does the Brexit vote help your ideal of a united Ireland?
0:32:59 > 0:33:04I think we need to be very, very careful that we don't
0:33:04 > 0:33:10see Brexit as something which can be exploited.
0:33:10 > 0:33:15Brexit is disastrous for the people of Ireland.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19The British government are not at all clear about what their future
0:33:19 > 0:33:22relationship with the European Union is going to be and they are arguing
0:33:22 > 0:33:25that they are going to leave the customs union and they are going
0:33:25 > 0:33:28to leave the single market, and that will end up
0:33:28 > 0:33:33a complete disaster for people here on the end of Ireland.
0:33:33 > 0:33:35The agreement that was made recently, which moved
0:33:35 > 0:33:40the negotiations into their second phase, was a fudge.
0:33:40 > 0:33:43It is filled with contradictions.
0:33:43 > 0:33:51Fudge is not always bad?
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Well, it's not always bad if it gets you over a particular difficulty.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57Tonnes of business people are totally dependent on the flow
0:33:57 > 0:34:00back and forth of business and commerce across what is
0:34:00 > 0:34:03an invisible border.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06When a hard economic border comes back, that's going to stunt that,
0:34:06 > 0:34:07that's going to destroy it.
0:34:07 > 0:34:08If it comes back.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10If it comes back.
0:34:10 > 0:34:13One of your own MPs said, if it comes back,
0:34:13 > 0:34:16those customs posts and those hard pieces of infrastructure along
0:34:16 > 0:34:18the border could become a target for dissident republican groups
0:34:18 > 0:34:21and mass civil disobedience and we could see the return
0:34:21 > 0:34:22of violence around the border.
0:34:22 > 0:34:26Do you share that worry?
0:34:26 > 0:34:30Yes.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33He didn't say it was likely, he said it was a concern and one has
0:34:33 > 0:34:35to be concerned that this would be exploited.
0:34:35 > 0:34:39But, look, you see, people have got used,
0:34:39 > 0:34:45after decades of conflict, people have got used to peace.
0:34:45 > 0:34:49So, the images which you may have or I may have of border checkpoints
0:34:49 > 0:34:50and of heavy patrols...
0:34:50 > 0:34:51They belong to history.
0:34:51 > 0:34:52That all belongs to history.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54And nobody wants that back.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56Now these debates are going to be thrashed out on the floor
0:34:56 > 0:34:59of the House of Commons and there are going to be some
0:34:59 > 0:35:01very substantial votes.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04If Sinn Fein took up its seats, and even voted once or twice,
0:35:04 > 0:35:07you could change the course of British history and change
0:35:07 > 0:35:10the course of history for the whole island of Ireland.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Is it really worth republican principle not taking those seats
0:35:13 > 0:35:16and not engaging in those votes?
0:35:16 > 0:35:18Well, before I leave it at that, let me tell
0:35:18 > 0:35:20you the solution to this problem.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22The solution to this problem is special designated
0:35:22 > 0:35:24status for the North within the European Union,
0:35:24 > 0:35:28and that is doable.
0:35:28 > 0:35:30And the Irish government don't like this idea,
0:35:30 > 0:35:34nor do they like it in Brussels.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37They think it sets too many precedents for the rest of the EU.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40Well, I don't know whether they like it or not,
0:35:40 > 0:35:42because they're very flexible in terms of how they are deal
0:35:42 > 0:35:44with the European Union and its relationships
0:35:44 > 0:35:46with the various different states.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50And with political will, that is very, very doable.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53Coming back to the issue of Sinn Fein taking our seats
0:35:53 > 0:35:55at Westminster, we just received the largest vote
0:35:55 > 0:35:56that we ever received.
0:35:56 > 0:35:57And you have leverage.
0:35:57 > 0:36:01Sorry, Andrew.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04We, when we get a mandate, obey that mandate and stay
0:36:04 > 0:36:09true to that mandate.
0:36:09 > 0:36:14That vote was a vote for no British involvement in our affairs.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17The centre of political gravity being on the island of Ireland.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20So, we will not betray those people who had a choice.
0:36:20 > 0:36:21Let's talk now about the past.
0:36:21 > 0:36:24Why did you not join the IRA?
0:36:24 > 0:36:29Because I was active in Sinn Fein when the IRA
0:36:29 > 0:36:32was just nonexistent, in the 1960s, after the border
0:36:32 > 0:36:37campaign, the whole trajectory within republicanism
0:36:37 > 0:36:41was to build politically.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45And I'm one of the very small group of people who were activists before
0:36:45 > 0:36:49the problems in 1969, one of the very few
0:36:49 > 0:36:53Republicans in there.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55Having said that, and it's a matter of history.
0:36:55 > 0:36:56The IRA has gone, Andrew.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58The IRA has gone.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02My position has been consistent, that I was not a member of the IRA,
0:37:02 > 0:37:05but I have never distanced myself from the IRA.
0:37:05 > 0:37:07Were you never tempted to join?
0:37:07 > 0:37:09No, I wasn't.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12I had my role in the struggle.
0:37:12 > 0:37:14I like to think I have served the struggle well.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16You always supported the armed struggle.
0:37:16 > 0:37:17You always defended the IRA.
0:37:17 > 0:37:22You were treated by members of the IRA as a kind of commander
0:37:22 > 0:37:26when you were in Long Kesh, and everybody who studied you,
0:37:26 > 0:37:28and I range from British politicians to journalists,
0:37:28 > 0:37:31they all think you were in the IRA.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34You always say, no, I wasn't, and I wasn't on the Army Council.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36Why is it that everybody else, including people who left
0:37:36 > 0:37:39their testimony in Boston and so forth, are sure that you were?
0:37:39 > 0:37:47You'd have to ask them that, Andrew.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51You know, some day I'll do an interview and this
0:37:51 > 0:37:52issue won't arise.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55Now I don't mind dealing with the issue but I
0:37:55 > 0:37:56make the point again.
0:37:56 > 0:37:57The IRA are gone.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00I did defend the IRA, but I also was very critical
0:38:00 > 0:38:01of the IRA at times.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04I don't condone everything that the IRA did.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07So, you were very, very vociferous and very clear in condemning
0:38:07 > 0:38:10the Manchester Arena bombing by an Islamic group.
0:38:10 > 0:38:13What is the moral difference between that, for instance,
0:38:13 > 0:38:15and the Birmingham pub bombings?
0:38:15 > 0:38:16Well, the Birmingham pub bombings were wrong.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18I condemn that as well.
0:38:18 > 0:38:20I don't have any compunction about it.
0:38:20 > 0:38:24Again, those were innocent people, going in just to have a pint of mild
0:38:24 > 0:38:25and listen to a jukebox.
0:38:25 > 0:38:29I've given you my answer to that.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32I would wish that no-one, no-one, had been killed or injured
0:38:32 > 0:38:35in the course of the conflict.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38At some point, you changed your mind about the physical force process
0:38:38 > 0:38:41and about the use of violence.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43When and why did you change your mind?
0:38:43 > 0:38:46Because we were able to create an alternative.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50When you can put forward an alternative, sensible people
0:38:50 > 0:38:54will embrace that alternative because no one wants to be either
0:38:54 > 0:38:57supporting or part...
0:38:57 > 0:39:01No-one sensible wants to be supporting or part of armed action.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04So, once you present an alternative...
0:39:04 > 0:39:06It's when you close down the options.
0:39:06 > 0:39:07When you say to people...
0:39:07 > 0:39:09So, it was tactical rather than moral.
0:39:09 > 0:39:11It wasn't you saying, this is morally wrong.
0:39:11 > 0:39:13Killing people like this is the wrong thing to do morally.
0:39:13 > 0:39:16It no longer works is what you're saying, in a sense.
0:39:16 > 0:39:20No, no.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23I'm sorry, Andrew, I'm better able to tell you what I think on these
0:39:23 > 0:39:26matters than you to put words into my mouth.
0:39:26 > 0:39:31If we want to talk about morality, you'd need a longer show than this.
0:39:31 > 0:39:35But, look, you can only make moral judgments about people
0:39:35 > 0:39:37when you walk in their shoes.
0:39:37 > 0:39:40And that's...
0:39:40 > 0:39:43Thankfully, we're talking here about history.
0:39:43 > 0:39:48We're talking about something that has passed.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50So, there was not a moment when you looked at the death
0:39:50 > 0:39:53of Tim Parry or some kid, or whatever, and you thought,
0:39:53 > 0:39:54this has gone far enough.
0:39:54 > 0:39:55Of course.
0:39:55 > 0:39:57There was a moral revulsion.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00I said that at the time.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02Hark at anyone, even if it is accidental,
0:40:02 > 0:40:05hark at anyone standing over the killing of a child, standing
0:40:05 > 0:40:07over the killing of a civilian.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10What's different, not entirely, if you want to be into all of that,
0:40:10 > 0:40:13if it's soldiers versus soldiers.
0:40:13 > 0:40:15But in the awfulness and the horror of war,
0:40:15 > 0:40:19you cannot stand over some of those incidents.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22You spent a lot of time sitting on the other side of a table.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25From a whole stream of British leaders, very, very early days,
0:40:25 > 0:40:27Ted Heath and Willie Whitelaw and so forth and then
0:40:27 > 0:40:31John Major, Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson, Mo Mowlam.
0:40:31 > 0:40:36Which of those did most for peace in Ireland in your view?
0:40:36 > 0:40:39Well, I suppose Tony Blair.
0:40:39 > 0:40:43When I would have big issues with him around
0:40:43 > 0:40:46Iraq and other matters, and we actually, myself and Martin,
0:40:46 > 0:40:48warned him about not getting involved in Iraq...
0:40:48 > 0:40:49Did you?
0:40:49 > 0:40:50Oh, yes.
0:40:50 > 0:40:52We said to him, don't do...
0:40:52 > 0:40:53Look at the Irish experience.
0:40:53 > 0:40:58Don't go in there.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01But he was given an opportunity, if you like, on a plate,
0:41:01 > 0:41:04and he seized it.
0:41:04 > 0:41:09So, Tony Blair, and now Tony Blair's party is now
0:41:09 > 0:41:12led by a very different man, who has always supported
0:41:12 > 0:41:13a united Ireland.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15He has been a big backer of yours over the years.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18What difference would it make to the island
0:41:18 > 0:41:23of Ireland and to Sinn Fein and your cause to have Jeremy Corbyn
0:41:23 > 0:41:26as British Prime Minister, which he might well be?
0:41:26 > 0:41:29Well, I would like to see Jeremy in that position for the benefit
0:41:29 > 0:41:31of people in Britain - leaving Ireland out of it.
0:41:31 > 0:41:33I think Jeremy is an outstanding politician.
0:41:33 > 0:41:40Let's put Ireland back into it though.
0:41:40 > 0:41:43I hope my endorsement of him isn't used against him in the time ahead.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46But, yes, he and Ken Livingstone and others kept faith
0:41:46 > 0:41:48and they were the people who said, when others said no, talk.
0:41:48 > 0:41:52They were the people who were open to conversation about how to deal
0:41:52 > 0:41:54with conflict and how to get conflict resolution processes.
0:41:54 > 0:41:56But, look, let's not pre-empt the next...
0:41:56 > 0:41:57Of course not.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59General election.
0:41:59 > 0:42:02Gerry Adams, are you a man of faith?
0:42:02 > 0:42:05Yes, I am, yes.
0:42:05 > 0:42:08So, one day, you will be judged by your maker.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10When you're being judged by your maker, will you be able
0:42:10 > 0:42:13to say, I have clean hands?
0:42:13 > 0:42:18Well, the one thing that I understand about faith and,
0:42:18 > 0:42:21you know, as you get older, you reflect on all of these things.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24The one thing I know about Jesus is that he forgave.
0:42:24 > 0:42:25He didn't go around condemning.
0:42:25 > 0:42:29Treat people with dignity and people will respond in a dignified way.
0:42:29 > 0:42:32Treat people badly and people will respond badly.
0:42:32 > 0:42:35Nobody gets to write their own obituary but what would be
0:42:35 > 0:42:36the headline on yours?
0:42:36 > 0:42:37God knows!
0:42:37 > 0:42:40I'm not really interested.
0:42:40 > 0:42:42Some people say to me, "What's your legacy?"
0:42:42 > 0:42:44I won't be around.
0:42:44 > 0:42:45None of us will.
0:42:45 > 0:42:51Gerry Adams, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54If there's one thing I can say without departing from studious
0:42:54 > 0:42:57neutrality on Brexit, it's that the Conservative Party
0:42:57 > 0:42:59doesn't agree with itself about where to go next.
0:42:59 > 0:43:04I'm joined by the Home Secretary, Amber Rudd.
0:43:04 > 0:43:11Welcome. Thank you.Can I start by asking that you have complete
0:43:11 > 0:43:15confidence in civil servants, especially is Treasury civil
0:43:15 > 0:43:20servants?Yes, I do. We are indeed the world over for the high
0:43:20 > 0:43:22standards of civil servants full stop now more than ever we need to
0:43:22 > 0:43:27make sure we attract the best into our civil service to take on what is
0:43:27 > 0:43:33an enormous challenge in terms of leaving the youth.When Mr Dash Mr
0:43:33 > 0:43:37Rees Mogg says, for instance, they are fiddling the figures and others
0:43:37 > 0:43:43say it is propaganda, what do you think?I am very surprised that he
0:43:43 > 0:43:49has used that language was I think he is wrong here. The document he
0:43:49 > 0:43:52particularly refers to is not a Treasury document anyway, it is
0:43:52 > 0:43:57prepared across different departments and it is a tool for
0:43:57 > 0:44:00informing those of us on the EU subcommittee bad choices that are to
0:44:00 > 0:44:06be made but not about projecting one way or another.Can you point me to
0:44:06 > 0:44:12a single government forecast that has been accurate?I can reassure
0:44:12 > 0:44:17you we need to have those forecasts whenever we embark on big policy
0:44:17 > 0:44:22decisions. The Treasury has them ahead of the budget. Are they ever
0:44:22 > 0:44:26right? They are what they are, sometimes wrong, but it does not
0:44:26 > 0:44:31mean we should not have them. The UK Government needs forecasts in order
0:44:31 > 0:44:35to make certain decisions. Sometimes they are wrong but only by a degree,
0:44:35 > 0:44:40they are still right about the direction.So you don't agree that
0:44:40 > 0:44:44civil service forecasts are always wrong and wrong for good reasons.
0:44:44 > 0:44:48Steve Baker had an interesting week this week where, over the whole
0:44:48 > 0:44:53debate about what was said when, was gracious enough to issue an apology.
0:44:53 > 0:44:58We all use forecasts. It does not mean we put all the way to people
0:44:58 > 0:45:02might expect on them we have to approach them with a certain amount
0:45:02 > 0:45:07of cynicism but they help inform the debate and decisions we make.Civil
0:45:07 > 0:45:13servants have feelings and some are watching this programme perhaps
0:45:13 > 0:45:19there is a lot of hurt by people inside the civil service. What
0:45:19 > 0:45:25visual message to them?They are and important. They are internationally
0:45:25 > 0:45:31admired for the system we have. We need to make sure we continue to
0:45:31 > 0:45:37attract the best into the civil service.You say these forecasts are
0:45:37 > 0:45:41credible if not exactly accurate. In the three options for the EU they
0:45:41 > 0:45:49model, British growth drops between 8%, 5% and 2%. A really significant
0:45:49 > 0:45:55factor. What did you think when you were allowed to read them?They are
0:45:55 > 0:45:59tools for helping to inform decision-making as we go into the
0:45:59 > 0:46:03critical stage for leaving the European Union was there not
0:46:03 > 0:46:06forecasts for certain consequences of the decision-making for the big
0:46:06 > 0:46:09cannot model for the domestic policy we might take the adjustments we
0:46:09 > 0:46:13could make in order to make changes to the country as we go forward foot
0:46:13 > 0:46:17or it doesn't model the changes in industrial policy nor the changes
0:46:17 > 0:46:25to...The future is unknown. But you must have been concerned?I am aware
0:46:25 > 0:46:30there are consequences. If you set up trade barriers, there is a
0:46:30 > 0:46:34consequence to a trading nation. I am very enthusiastic for making sure
0:46:34 > 0:46:39we have as few trade barriers as possible. The Prime Minister has
0:46:39 > 0:46:42said she wants frictionless trade at the border. We put up trade
0:46:42 > 0:46:47barriers, it will not help the economy?Do you think we will grow
0:46:47 > 0:46:54or contract when we leave the EU?We will absolutely grow. We have grown
0:46:54 > 0:47:00over the past two years and will continue to sow do.
0:47:00 > 0:47:05But we will grow less than we would have done if we had not left?The
0:47:05 > 0:47:09wealth of the country is not made entirely of trade, it's made from
0:47:09 > 0:47:14culture, rule of law, ambition and enterprise.But let me remind you
0:47:14 > 0:47:19what Philip Lay the justice minister said this week, he said "We cannot
0:47:19 > 0:47:23just dismiss this and move on. If these figures turn out to be
0:47:23 > 0:47:27anywhere near right there will be serious questions over whether a
0:47:27 > 0:47:32government could legitimately lead country along the path with the
0:47:32 > 0:47:38evidence -- which the evidence indicates would be damaging".It is
0:47:38 > 0:47:41not the whole picture, these forecasts are tools for
0:47:41 > 0:47:46decision-making but don't put in place elements such as other trade
0:47:46 > 0:47:51deals. The other thing I would say is the decision to leave the
0:47:51 > 0:47:56European Union was not all about the economy. We know that. It was about
0:47:56 > 0:48:01sovereignty as well. In my constituency in Hastings, we hate
0:48:01 > 0:48:05the Common fisheries policy, we would like to make sure the
0:48:05 > 0:48:09fishermen all through coastal communities get a better deal. That
0:48:09 > 0:48:14is not about per capita, it is about communities and independence.The
0:48:14 > 0:48:18other thing about these models is they did not include what the Prime
0:48:18 > 0:48:24Minister wants which is this generous bespoke deal. I described
0:48:24 > 0:48:28it at the beginning of the programme has been a bit like unicorn, talked
0:48:28 > 0:48:33about but never seen. Have you seen it?There have been discussions
0:48:33 > 0:48:38about it. The proposal in terms of the leaked document we talked about
0:48:38 > 0:48:50sets out consequences.What we are talking about is some kind of Canada
0:48:50 > 0:48:56like trade deal with things attached to it to help us specifically like a
0:48:56 > 0:49:01special deal for the city and for services generally?I'm not going to
0:49:01 > 0:49:06get drawn too far into those sectors. We are having meetings this
0:49:06 > 0:49:11week. There's been a lot of criticism about pre-leaking ahead of
0:49:11 > 0:49:17decisions and I am the -- one of those who has been critical of that.
0:49:17 > 0:49:23We want to make sure the Irish border doesn't go up again,
0:49:23 > 0:49:25particularly significant having listened to your interview with
0:49:25 > 0:49:32Gerry Adams, and that we are free to do trade deals outside the EU.When
0:49:32 > 0:49:38people like you chastise people like me for listening to briefings and
0:49:38 > 0:49:43leaks, you say go back and read the Lancaster house speech, it is all
0:49:43 > 0:49:54there, so I have done. " Whether that means we should reach a new
0:49:54 > 0:49:58customs union agreement, I hold no preconceived opinion, I have an open
0:49:58 > 0:50:04mind on how we do it" is that still policy?She has an open mind about
0:50:04 > 0:50:10it. We proposed either a customs arrangement or a customs
0:50:10 > 0:50:13partnership, they are both alternatives we could look at.She's
0:50:13 > 0:50:19talking about the possibility of a customs union with some kind -- of
0:50:19 > 0:50:24some kind with the rest of the EU. We do not want to have tariffs at
0:50:24 > 0:50:29the border so that is a form of customs agreement, arrangement,
0:50:29 > 0:50:36partnership.So you would need some kind of customs union?It is likely
0:50:36 > 0:50:39to be something within the customs framework but I don't want to be
0:50:39 > 0:50:44drawn.It seems like you are so intimidated by the other side of the
0:50:44 > 0:50:49argument you don't actually want to say the words customs union.I am
0:50:49 > 0:50:52not intimidated, we need to make sure we have given a sense of
0:50:52 > 0:50:56direction about what we want to achieve, which we have. It would be
0:50:56 > 0:51:02wrong to think we can give all of the punctuation in the details.Liam
0:51:02 > 0:51:06Fox says "It is difficult to see how being in a customs union is
0:51:06 > 0:51:09compatible with having an independent trade policy" and
0:51:09 > 0:51:16Bernard Jenkin as well. It sounds like a menacing threat if you go too
0:51:16 > 0:51:22close to a customs union.That's why I've said we want frictionless trade
0:51:22 > 0:51:25on the border, no border on the island of Ireland, and we want to be
0:51:25 > 0:51:30able to do trade deals outside the European Union.That is cake and
0:51:30 > 0:51:33eating it in the sense everybody seems to agree if we are in a
0:51:33 > 0:51:36customs union we cannot do the big deals around the rest of the world
0:51:36 > 0:51:42but if we are not in a customs union we have the border problem with
0:51:42 > 0:51:45Ireland and the friction trade problem as well.You have brought
0:51:45 > 0:51:49out the problems, we know they are there, that's why we have said we
0:51:49 > 0:51:56want a bespoke agreement. We are not going to surrender before we have
0:51:56 > 0:52:00had the battle.After you have had this two day meeting, Michel Barnier
0:52:00 > 0:52:04is coming over this weekend, by the end of this coming week, will we
0:52:04 > 0:52:10have a much clearer idea of what the British government actually wants to
0:52:10 > 0:52:14negotiate?I think it is clear what we want to negotiate. We haven't
0:52:14 > 0:52:18achieved that yet, we have made progress in protecting EU citizens
0:52:18 > 0:52:28but we need to make sure we have this wider agreement. I don't know
0:52:30 > 0:52:33how far that will go over the next few weeks but I hope the Government
0:52:33 > 0:52:36will be given the space to try to achieve that.You mentioned the
0:52:36 > 0:52:38transition agreement, as Home Secretary are you clear it is a red
0:52:38 > 0:52:41line that once we have left the EU in March, EU citizens won't have the
0:52:41 > 0:52:45same rights they have now?The critical thing is they will be able
0:52:45 > 0:52:50to come and go to work here. They will need to register in order to
0:52:50 > 0:52:55show they are here during the two year period. The Prime Minister has
0:52:55 > 0:52:59said she wants them to have different settlement rights to those
0:52:59 > 0:53:04who arrived before the specified date.That is a red line?I'm not
0:53:04 > 0:53:07going to get drawn on red lines because the negotiations are only
0:53:07 > 0:53:15just starting.Can I put it gently because we have heard both Michel
0:53:15 > 0:53:20Barnier saying there is no way we are going to accept that.I think
0:53:20 > 0:53:25you are surrendering to quickly here, Andrew.You are surrendering
0:53:25 > 0:53:30slowly but still surrendering.It is right to have a distinction between
0:53:30 > 0:53:40EU citizens who arrived before and after. I support the Prime Minister
0:53:40 > 0:53:45in taking that position.This means, to be clear, if the EU won't accept
0:53:45 > 0:53:49our position on the transitional rights of EU citizens coming here,
0:53:49 > 0:53:54as we have been describing, there will not be a transition period?I
0:53:54 > 0:53:58think our offer to EU citizens both before and after the transition
0:53:58 > 0:54:02period is generous and takes into account what we want for British
0:54:02 > 0:54:07citizens in the EU as well. Essentially the Brexiteers are
0:54:07 > 0:54:11saying in today's papers we have the numbers, you people, people like
0:54:11 > 0:54:16Amber Rudd and Philip Hammond and possibly even Theresa May, will have
0:54:16 > 0:54:21to see things our way or else.The committee that meet in order to make
0:54:21 > 0:54:26these decisions, meeting twice this week, is more united than they
0:54:26 > 0:54:30think. We meet in the committee and privately for discussions, I think
0:54:30 > 0:54:36we will arrive at something which suits us all. There may be choices
0:54:36 > 0:54:40to be made in that but we all want to arrive at a deal that works for
0:54:40 > 0:54:46the UK, is that looks ahead, not just protecting trade behind us,
0:54:46 > 0:54:50looking ahead, and we all have those interests at heart and I think can
0:54:50 > 0:54:55work closely to deliver it.The weirdest suggestion in the papers
0:54:55 > 0:54:59today is you might be Boris Johnson's Chancellor of the
0:54:59 > 0:55:04Exchequer. Can you imagine that? That is such a difficult question,
0:55:04 > 0:55:10I'm going to pass.Let's talk about the position of women, 100 years
0:55:10 > 0:55:14after women got the vote. There's been a lot said about where women
0:55:14 > 0:55:21are now and we've had an extraordinary
0:55:22 > 0:55:24extraordinary week with yet more Harvey Weinstein allegations, the
0:55:24 > 0:55:26President's club, lots of debates about women going to darts matches,
0:55:26 > 0:55:34parading around at the beginning of Formula One. Where do you think the
0:55:34 > 0:55:38cause is right now?As you rightly said, it is 100 years since women
0:55:38 > 0:55:43got the vote and that is something to celebrate. Only by having women
0:55:43 > 0:55:47in Government do you get women's lives properly considered by
0:55:47 > 0:55:51government and we saw that with Harriet Harman, who did so much for
0:55:51 > 0:55:54women's working lives, and we see that now from this Government
0:55:54 > 0:55:59delivering on the gender pay gap, making sure action is taken against
0:55:59 > 0:56:03violence against women and girls. There's a big cultural change going
0:56:03 > 0:56:11on, do you like to see the parading of women at the beginning of boxing
0:56:11 > 0:56:17matches ending, as it is in Formula One?The women in sporting events
0:56:17 > 0:56:23that really inspire me are the women playing in football, on the
0:56:23 > 0:56:29athletics field, delivering.The President's club event are really
0:56:29 > 0:56:34shocked a lot of people bought up and down the country, behind high
0:56:34 > 0:56:39streets, there are gentlemen 's clubs everywhere. Where there is
0:56:39 > 0:56:42pole dancing, lap dancing, and the same kind of atmosphere pertains,
0:56:42 > 0:56:47would you like to see that ended in this country?I think we are
0:56:47 > 0:56:52reaching a tipping point now. The President's club was objectionable,
0:56:52 > 0:56:55and women working anywhere should feel safe in their working
0:56:55 > 0:57:00environment. What worries me most is some of the women you are suggesting
0:57:00 > 0:57:03there may not feel safe in that working environment, that's what
0:57:03 > 0:57:08matters most. Women in business expect to be in an environment where
0:57:08 > 0:57:13sexual titillation is not part of the offer.The Fawcett Society have
0:57:13 > 0:57:19suggested misogyny should be made a hate crime, do you agree with that?
0:57:19 > 0:57:24I'm always going to look at what the Fawcett Society are suggesting.
0:57:24 > 0:57:29There is the gender recognition act coming up as well, are you as
0:57:29 > 0:57:34enthusiastic about that as Justine Greening was?We will be consulting
0:57:34 > 0:57:37on the gender recognition act, seeing how far we need to go with
0:57:37 > 0:57:42it. Women's aid will be reviewing their arrangements for allowing
0:57:42 > 0:57:47transgender people to be working in women's only spaces. It is a
0:57:47 > 0:57:50sensitive issue, we will be consulting on seeing what changes we
0:57:50 > 0:57:55need to make, if any.What about transgender people going to women's
0:57:55 > 0:58:00prisons for instance?It is something we need to look at
0:58:00 > 0:58:04carefully, transgender women need to be treated with respect and always
0:58:04 > 0:58:10safe, but at the same time I want to protect women's safe spaces.And
0:58:10 > 0:58:14what would you say to women, including many feminists, who look
0:58:14 > 0:58:18at what's happening in the women's aid situation for instance and they
0:58:18 > 0:58:21are worried about the possibility of people who are not yet biologically
0:58:21 > 0:58:27fully women being in charge of those spaces.I hear them and I say let's
0:58:27 > 0:58:32look and wait and see what happens with women's aid, let's make sure we
0:58:32 > 0:58:37don't rush to judgment, but above all the exception in the equality
0:58:37 > 0:58:41act for only women working in women's safe spaces will not be
0:58:41 > 0:58:45touched.Amber Rudd, thank you for talking to us.
0:58:45 > 0:58:50Now a look at what's coming up straight after this programme.
0:58:50 > 0:58:56Join us at ten, whereas Britain reaches the anniversary of 100 years
0:58:56 > 0:59:02since women got the vote, we ask our women holding themselves back? And
0:59:02 > 0:59:08does evidence post problems for religions, discussing the dead Sea
0:59:08 > 0:59:09Scrolls.
0:59:09 > 0:59:12That's all we've got time for - a busy programme today.
0:59:12 > 0:59:14Among my guests next week, the actors Jeremy Irons
0:59:14 > 0:59:15and Lesley Manville.
0:59:15 > 0:59:21For now, goodbye.