:00:14. > :00:16.Hello and welcome to our Sunday morning edition of The Papers.
:00:17. > :00:18.With me are Lisa Markwell, Editor of the Independent on Sunday
:00:19. > :00:23.and Ian Birrell, Associate Editor of the Mail on Sunday.
:00:24. > :00:28.The Observer says David Cameron is considering plans to allow
:00:29. > :00:32.thousands of unaccompanied migrant children into Britain.
:00:33. > :00:35.The Sunday Express leads on the story that the RAF has foiled
:00:36. > :00:38.a plan by so-called Islamic State to attack London, Brighton,
:00:39. > :00:44.The gloves are off says the Sunday Telegraph as Conservative
:00:45. > :00:49.infighting deepens over whether to stay in the European Union.
:00:50. > :00:53.The Independent on Sunday's cover photo shows rows of cars under snow
:00:54. > :01:01.And in the Sunday Times, the story that a former British spy
:01:02. > :01:04.is to expose what he says was MI5 knowledge of torture at Guantanamo
:01:05. > :01:18.Good morning to you both. Let's start with the Independent. That is
:01:19. > :01:23.your newspaper. Why don't we look at the Snow Festival. Ian, help us with
:01:24. > :01:29.that. A great picture on the front page, cars buried. First of all,
:01:30. > :01:33.it's caused deaths of people as well but a massive storm. This is the big
:01:34. > :01:39.overnight story. A one metre has fallen in one area of West Virginia.
:01:40. > :01:43.Phenomenal. Ten states are in emergency. The number of dead is up
:01:44. > :01:49.to 18. In New York, five of the six deaths have been caused by people
:01:50. > :01:52.falling over in the snow but it's a big deal for America and it's
:01:53. > :01:56.interesting how well-prepared they seem to be in many ways, certainly
:01:57. > :02:01.from the outside. I'm sure there will be the usual weather fuss about
:02:02. > :02:06.poor preparations but they close down the tube, police on the streets
:02:07. > :02:11.and suchlike. It's hard for papers in a way to do justice to this
:02:12. > :02:14.because it's a very visual thing for television but this picture is great
:02:15. > :02:19.showing the depth of the snow. What struck me is it was a short time
:02:20. > :02:23.ago, couple of weeks ago, they were having the mildest weather with
:02:24. > :02:26.people in short sleeves wondering about Central Park. And Donald Trump
:02:27. > :02:32.saying he does not believe in global warming because it's cold outside.
:02:33. > :02:36.There's politics in this as well, of course. Always politics. Extreme
:02:37. > :02:44.weather is something I think we all have to get used to, between highs
:02:45. > :02:46.and lows, it happens very suddenly. But the preparation is really
:02:47. > :02:52.interesting. When we first started to see pictures, you get the usual
:02:53. > :02:56.thing of people in Central Park on skis and it's snowing, that's
:02:57. > :03:04.charming, but, as the evening progressed and it became clear it
:03:05. > :03:06.was unprecedented, and people were dying, you change how you want to
:03:07. > :03:11.represented visually. Also comes after the hottest year in which you
:03:12. > :03:15.are right about the extreme weather and the fluctuating conditions. I'm
:03:16. > :03:20.sure Donald Trump will be angry about it in some way. OK, right,
:03:21. > :03:27.staying with your paper, Lisa, your main story, schools told to drop
:03:28. > :03:32.university snobbery. What's this about? Nicky Morgan, the Education
:03:33. > :03:37.Secretary, has noticed all been briefed, which is very true, but
:03:38. > :03:43.high-flying state schools, not private schools, are funnelling the
:03:44. > :03:48.more able pupils very much towards university. That's nothing new, it's
:03:49. > :03:52.always happened, but they believe it's to the detriment of inner work
:03:53. > :04:00.and apprenticeships which, if you like, are becoming training for all
:04:01. > :04:05.pupils because universities and students have debt, it's not
:04:06. > :04:09.necessarily... There's no guarantee or likelihood you're going to get a
:04:10. > :04:13.job at the end of university. What's happened is, because there's been so
:04:14. > :04:17.much emphasis on University, pupils are not even getting the information
:04:18. > :04:20.in careers advice about the fact that they could be having an
:04:21. > :04:24.alternative route into employment and so what they want to do through
:04:25. > :04:28.legislation which is quite unusual, law will be brought in very quickly,
:04:29. > :04:34.that schools including academies will be compelled to bring in people
:04:35. > :04:38.from further education colleges and companies to articulate to the
:04:39. > :04:43.students, you could be coming to us, earning money more quickly and
:04:44. > :04:45.progressing in your career. While it's an interesting issue, it does
:04:46. > :04:50.seem pretty crass politics because the Tories are trying to show that
:04:51. > :04:54.the party of everyone and, at the same time, trying to spread the
:04:55. > :04:57.message they are backing apprenticeship, the Levy pushed by
:04:58. > :05:01.George Osborne, which is an interesting thing with tax on
:05:02. > :05:07.business. You don't need a law with this. This is the government trying
:05:08. > :05:11.to use legislation to underline a political point and dry home a
:05:12. > :05:15.political message. It seems silly to clog up Westminster's time with
:05:16. > :05:19.another needless use of legislation. I presume it will be waved through
:05:20. > :05:25.very quickly. It's not a contentious because no one is going to oppose
:05:26. > :05:29.it. Let's go on to the Observer. Wider Java go at this? This is on
:05:30. > :05:37.the back of Jeremy Corbyn's ill timed visit to Calais. Which was
:05:38. > :05:41.interesting. Ill timed why? While I have sympathy for a lot of things
:05:42. > :05:44.he's saying, I'm not sure politically it's the wisest and it
:05:45. > :05:48.coincided also with a group of refugees and migrants storming a
:05:49. > :05:53.ferry. The picture the public is getting is not the most popular
:05:54. > :05:56.message is doing. Even though I have great sympathy for the things he's
:05:57. > :06:03.saying and for his determination against political consensus on it.
:06:04. > :06:08.Orthodoxy. To ram home at a different message. This is about
:06:09. > :06:11.migrant children particularly. It's a story which is curious because
:06:12. > :06:16.there's not much evidence the government is considering the report
:06:17. > :06:20.which save the children have been pushing for a long time to take 3000
:06:21. > :06:26.children. The right thing to do, the government seems to be like an
:06:27. > :06:29.offshoot of save the children. But she ever does not seem to be firm
:06:30. > :06:34.evidence they will act on it although let's hope they are. What
:06:35. > :06:38.they're asking for something quite different because the government has
:06:39. > :06:41.said they will help people and bring people over, I think its 20,000,
:06:42. > :06:49.from camps in the Middle East. This is saying... Over five years. These
:06:50. > :06:53.children have already arrived in Europe. It would be a change and
:06:54. > :06:59.that for the government is slightly dragging its feet. It's interesting
:07:00. > :07:04.how it also plays into the discussions with the Tory party.
:07:05. > :07:09.We've got a comment piece by the prime Mr Balls saying talks should
:07:10. > :07:17.be put on hold until this is sorted out because it's such a big issue
:07:18. > :07:21.now. -- the Prime Minister. David Cameron has not been to Calais and
:07:22. > :07:26.he he is the highest-ranking British politician to go. The riot in
:07:27. > :07:31.protest going on in Calais yesterday, I don't think it
:07:32. > :07:35.coincided with Jeremy Corbyn because it was only announced last minute he
:07:36. > :07:44.was going. That was happening anyway. Let's go on to the Sunday
:07:45. > :07:50.Telegraph. Their front page says Europe, the gloves are off as Tory
:07:51. > :07:55.rift widens. I seem to have been reading that Tory refs since Tories
:07:56. > :08:12.were invented. It makes a change from Labour refs. -- riffs. -- --
:08:13. > :08:18.rifts. . Europe has got to have a considered message which it won't
:08:19. > :08:23.show the public. If the referendum is going to take place, this summer,
:08:24. > :08:27.they have got to look coherently like they're on the same side but
:08:28. > :08:31.most of the people involved in this, Liam Fox, Frank Field, say they are
:08:32. > :08:37.for the outcome pain. Nicholas Soames. They are not the most
:08:38. > :08:45.dynamic figures dare I say in the Conservative Party. Nicholas Soames
:08:46. > :08:48.is pretty noisy. Noisy and dynamic? It ties into what we're talking
:08:49. > :08:52.because they are conflating the migration issue as well. Nicholas
:08:53. > :08:55.owned and Frank Field had a group with a talk about an end of open
:08:56. > :08:58.door policy in Britain which is ludicrous because Britain does not
:08:59. > :09:02.have an open door policy despite some of the myths about it. We are
:09:03. > :09:09.pretty restrictive policy wise compared to Europe. It's the usual
:09:10. > :09:13.suspects on the hard right of the Conservative Party. They are are
:09:14. > :09:19.opposed to the EU trying to push their case. Isn't it also about the
:09:20. > :09:27.politics of the newspaper concerned, as well? I can't remember they have
:09:28. > :09:31.declared which read go, but appears to me the views of the editor and
:09:32. > :09:35.the management and so on, the stories they report on Europe, they
:09:36. > :09:40.seem to be merging together now. It's difficult to pick a path. The
:09:41. > :09:45.Telegraph group is conservative and sceptical. I have no problem with
:09:46. > :09:50.that. They are pushing their cause. You know, it's not like it totally
:09:51. > :09:54.made up story. There are divisions within the Conservative Party which
:09:55. > :09:58.threatened to explode and there is a group of hard right conservatives
:09:59. > :10:01.who are very opposed to Britain's membership and are doing everything
:10:02. > :10:07.to try and put some dynamism into a rather divided and confused campaign
:10:08. > :10:12.to pull out. The most sensible voice in this comes much later down in the
:10:13. > :10:15.story as you might expect. Stephen Crabb, the Welsh Secretary, saying
:10:16. > :10:22.on both sides, if they start to use the language of Project fear, where
:10:23. > :10:25.its scaremongers the public, it does everybody a disservice and really,
:10:26. > :10:30.it's more important, whichever way they go and campaign on both sides,
:10:31. > :10:33.it can't be about the politics of fear. Realistically it has to be
:10:34. > :10:38.because that will have to do with the debate. People are nervous about
:10:39. > :10:41.pulling out of Europe. I think ultimately, Britain will vote to
:10:42. > :10:45.stay in Europe because people are scared of the unknown. And they will
:10:46. > :10:52.be persuaded the risks are too great. Senior Tories accusing David
:10:53. > :10:57.Cameron of bringing back his flash man persona. There's a group of hard
:10:58. > :11:02.like MPs who don't like him and we're prepared to overthrow him
:11:03. > :11:06.after they thought was not going to win the election and were dismayed
:11:07. > :11:10.by the fact he won the election. Let's move on. Still on the front
:11:11. > :11:16.page of the Sunday Telegraph. This is a tale everyone can relate to.
:11:17. > :11:21.The matter of the ?33 million ticket. It's a bit like a film
:11:22. > :11:25.script. The idea that some unfortunate person bought a lottery
:11:26. > :11:29.ticket which defied the odds and one this extraordinary life changing
:11:30. > :11:33.amount of money, 33 million, and she was desperate to go into the house
:11:34. > :11:36.wondering what she done with it. It's a story one can relate to but
:11:37. > :11:44.the question is, whether it will wash. It was in a pair of jeans.
:11:45. > :11:47.Yes, this is the back story. The ticket was in a pair of jeans and
:11:48. > :11:51.went through the washing machine so the bar code which would show
:11:52. > :11:55.whether and where it was bought and the date has conveniently become
:11:56. > :12:01.blurred. But the numbers are still clear. We've all part of ?33 million
:12:02. > :12:09.lottery tickets to the wash, haven't we? What terrible cynics you are.
:12:10. > :12:12.Let's hope it's true. Everybody likes those amazing stories so if
:12:13. > :12:18.it's true, it's a film script waiting to happen. Absolutely.
:12:19. > :12:22.Worcester woman is going to bomb the big screen any time soon, I'm sure.
:12:23. > :12:33.Let's move on. The Sunday express. The front-page story sounds, a tax
:12:34. > :12:37.on four towns foiled by the RAF. -- attacks. This needn't detain us for
:12:38. > :12:41.very long because it has been rather overplayed I would say. Would you
:12:42. > :12:51.give more credence to the lottery woman? Shall we say first of all
:12:52. > :12:55.what it says? This is a conversation picked up by people who listen to
:12:56. > :13:01.pilots and air traffic on an emergency channel by two pilots, not
:13:02. > :13:07.British, very soon after the Paris attacks which is also significant,
:13:08. > :13:11.they were using coded language in Arabic which led the people
:13:12. > :13:17.listening in to believe they were planning to somehow bring into the
:13:18. > :13:22.country chemical weapons and weaponry that would be used in an
:13:23. > :13:25.attack. Now, that is significant and important and, of course, you would
:13:26. > :13:33.expect the monitoring to be very careful in the air and we all know
:13:34. > :13:36.why. But, when the language, the conversations were passed on to
:13:37. > :13:44.GCHQ, it was quickly decided the pilots wear clean, which... How do
:13:45. > :13:48.the RAF get involved? I presume on the channel, the emergency channel,
:13:49. > :13:55.the RAF would have two scramble pretty quickly. My knowledge of
:13:56. > :14:07.aviation security is not a second to say. Again, it would be a great film
:14:08. > :14:13.script it was true. Also, RAF is a good word for headlines. Only three
:14:14. > :14:19.letters. They have now been put on a watchlist of is nothing to suggest
:14:20. > :14:23.this a real and present danger. What strikes me as what's going to
:14:24. > :14:28.undermine any films is the fact attacks on London and Bath and
:14:29. > :14:33.Brighton may be but Ipswich? You never know. Funnily enough I think
:14:34. > :14:35.that's an interesting part about it. I was talking to a colleague
:14:36. > :14:42.yesterday about Oxford Circus, and Buckingham Palace and places where
:14:43. > :14:49.lots of people go but actually, it would be... I always hesitate to
:14:50. > :14:56.talk about Islamic State and propaganda, so-called, that would be
:14:57. > :14:58.a very, very significant way to mobilise a huge amount of
:14:59. > :15:00.national-security in an unprecedented way in this country if
:15:01. > :15:06.the were dotted around the country and not just in one place. Let's
:15:07. > :15:10.move on. Staying with a world of intelligence. The Sunday Times front
:15:11. > :15:18.page about an MI5 officer saying I will expose torturous secrets. This
:15:19. > :15:22.is an interesting story which claims a senior official is prepared to
:15:23. > :15:25.confirm what everyone has long suspected, which is that British
:15:26. > :15:32.intelligence operatives were in some way involved in the interrogation of
:15:33. > :15:37.people being captured and tortured at Guantanamo Bay. And the story
:15:38. > :15:42.says, this senior officer has asked to give evidence to a Parliamentary
:15:43. > :15:45.enquiry, he has not yet been given permission, but it would be quite
:15:46. > :15:51.difficult for the authorities to say no to the person concerned. And if
:15:52. > :15:55.they do, I think it really helps in us getting to grips with something
:15:56. > :15:59.which is Long stained the country and one of the legacies of the new
:16:00. > :16:03.Labour government and their support for what happened in Iraq and
:16:04. > :16:08.elsewhere in the world and Afghanistan, I think this is
:16:09. > :16:11.potentially a big step forward and a really interesting story and put MI5
:16:12. > :16:17.in a very difficult position because they will institutionally want to
:16:18. > :16:22.say no because it is washing their dirty linen in public but, equally,
:16:23. > :16:25.there is a big public interest in this person being allowed to do so
:16:26. > :16:30.so I think it's a fascinating story. Might it not lead on to suspicions
:16:31. > :16:33.around that somehow Britain are not just closing its eyes to what
:16:34. > :16:37.happened in Guantanamo Bay, but might have actually been involved in
:16:38. > :16:43.it? It's always been very, very delicate, the line trod by MI5 that
:16:44. > :16:49.they've always denied participating or condoning any torture of
:16:50. > :16:56.detainees, but there's always the knowledge, slightly difficult point.
:16:57. > :17:01.When I was in Libya, I got these documents showing MI5 were sending
:17:02. > :17:04.over questions to the Libyan authorities under Colonel Gaddafi,
:17:05. > :17:08.the dictator, and they'll actually putting forward the questions that
:17:09. > :17:11.should be asked to people who had been rendered and being tortured and
:17:12. > :17:15.they did on three different occasions. As you say, keeping a lid
:17:16. > :17:18.on this is increasingly difficult and it interesting Dominic Greaves,
:17:19. > :17:23.who heads up the intelligence and security committee has said, if it's
:17:24. > :17:28.the case that this person is trying to get evidence suppressed, that
:17:29. > :17:33.can't be allowed to happen. We have to hear from any interested parties.
:17:34. > :17:38.That is a very interesting element and of course, coming after
:17:39. > :17:42.Alexander Litvinenko the security services are really under the
:17:43. > :17:44.microscope. Lisa, Ian, thank you very much indeed.
:17:45. > :17:47.Just a reminder we take a look at tomorrow's front pages every
:17:48. > :18:00.evening at 10.30 and 11.30 here on BBC News.
:18:01. > :18:04.Really mild this Sunday across the UK but it's going to be
:18:05. > :18:07.crisp and very cold across the eastern side