:00:00. > :00:18.Hello and welcome to our Sunday morning edition of The Papers.
:00:19. > :00:20.With me are Eleanor Mills, editorial director of
:00:21. > :00:26.The Sunday Times, and Hugh Muir, columnist for The Guardian.
:00:27. > :00:27.Today's front pages: The Sunday Times leads
:00:28. > :00:30.with the much-delayed Chilcott Report into the Iraq War.
:00:31. > :00:32.The paper claims the report will deliver a 'brutal verdict'
:00:33. > :00:35.on senior government figures including Tony Blair.
:00:36. > :00:38.The Sunday Telegraph leads with the EU referendum,
:00:39. > :00:41.it says a government leak has laid bare a trade war
:00:42. > :00:47.The Mail on Sunday has a warning from high street bosses
:00:48. > :00:50.claiming prices will soar if Britain leaves the EU.
:00:51. > :00:57.It reports 12 million Turkish migrants will head to the UK
:00:58. > :01:05.The Sunday Times leads with the much-delayed
:01:06. > :01:19.Seven years on, it is meant to be released on July the 6th. We have
:01:20. > :01:23.got a really good read out of what we think is going to be in it.
:01:24. > :01:27.Basically, it's interesting because it kind of tells us what we already
:01:28. > :01:31.knew, that there were real problems around the intelligence and the way
:01:32. > :01:37.that it was spun, and the whole dodgy dossier, but it also paints a
:01:38. > :01:41.bleak picture of the lack of pace invasion planning, so we know that
:01:42. > :01:45.the British had big problems in Basra, and the Americans had to help
:01:46. > :01:48.us out. It is saying that actually the second half of the report, which
:01:49. > :01:53.looks at not what got us into war, but what happened while we were
:01:54. > :01:57.there, shows real problems within the whole UK administration of
:01:58. > :02:00.Basra, southern Iraqi, and that we didn't know what we were doing. We
:02:01. > :02:06.would like to pride ourselves that we did, so having got rid of Saddam
:02:07. > :02:10.Hussein, dismantling all of his structure was not a great idea, and
:02:11. > :02:14.these rather naive ideas in Whitehall that this was immediately
:02:15. > :02:20.going to be a peaceful transition to democracy did not help. Yes, that
:02:21. > :02:26.they would welcome democracy with flowers, but instability was what
:02:27. > :02:34.was left. Yes, people were nervous about seeing this report and they
:02:35. > :02:37.will be even more nervous now. Jack Straw was named as someone who would
:02:38. > :02:42.have a particular reason to worry and he was strongly criticised. That
:02:43. > :02:46.is part of the reason for the delay. Chilcott was forced to tell them,
:02:47. > :02:50.this is the kind of criticism you will encounter and give them an
:02:51. > :02:56.opportunity to reply. One of the problems as Alan says, a lot of it
:02:57. > :03:00.is going to be familiar to us, and it has taken so long, and you do
:03:01. > :03:04.wonder what the impact will be, given that we know the broad themes.
:03:05. > :03:09.There are villains here, we kind of note who they are, and we know what
:03:10. > :03:15.they did, so really the report will be on the majorly, but that will
:03:16. > :03:20.sack some of its impact. I'm not sure we are going to learn anything
:03:21. > :03:24.new. A fair point, but it does play into our reluctance to get involved
:03:25. > :03:32.in foreign adventures, the public's reluctance. If you break it, you own
:03:33. > :03:35.it, as Colin Powell just said, ... That is interesting. What we did not
:03:36. > :03:38.know about this report is what it is saying about the aftermath and how
:03:39. > :03:42.bad things really had got in Basra, and who is responsible for that. A
:03:43. > :03:46.lot of the argument about this report has been the general saying
:03:47. > :03:51.yes, this went wrong, but these were political decisions. We are implying
:03:52. > :03:54.that Jack Straw is going to come in for a much bigger troubling than
:03:55. > :04:00.people had expected. Things like Tony Blair has had to push a year
:04:01. > :04:03.out that he would support him in a ruck by backing military action, all
:04:04. > :04:07.of those kind of things we know, but it may be the granular detail of
:04:08. > :04:10.actually what a hash we made of it on the ground, that people will be
:04:11. > :04:16.light shocked by. The remit of this report was that he wanted government
:04:17. > :04:21.in the future to make better decisions, and a real tragedy of all
:04:22. > :04:25.of this is that we have left Iraqi where the whole of northern Iraqi
:04:26. > :04:29.has been overrun by Isis. The Americans got out of there very
:04:30. > :04:34.quickly. We decided it had all been a decided and we had messed it up so
:04:35. > :04:40.we were getting out, so we have created this nightmare dystopian
:04:41. > :04:45.chaos in northern Iraq and Syria, where people are dying in their
:04:46. > :04:48.hundreds and thousands. It'll be interesting how this moves us
:04:49. > :04:50.forward because as you say we have got into other ventures since then,
:04:51. > :05:01.and we haven't handled the aftermath any better. As someone once said we
:05:02. > :05:10.don't do nation-building. An Iraqi friend of mine says an Arab proverb
:05:11. > :05:15.says 1000 years of tyranny is better than one year of chaos. A depressing
:05:16. > :05:23.thought. The male is very interesting -- the Mail on Sunday.
:05:24. > :05:27.Prices to soar if we whip the EU. Catastrophe on the high street. For
:05:28. > :05:36.giants of UK retail break silence. It has got stuff about Boris Johnson
:05:37. > :05:41.on page eight. Boris offers Number 11 keys to three MPs when he is at
:05:42. > :05:51.number ten. What is going on here? It is almost a special EU edition of
:05:52. > :05:55.the Mail on Sunday. You have got different angles coming at you from
:05:56. > :06:00.different sides. One may have chosen to give most prominent is too is, as
:06:01. > :06:08.you say, these high Street bosses, Tesco, Sainsbury's, Marks Spencer
:06:09. > :06:12.is and B, saying that if we leave the EU that will have a devastating
:06:13. > :06:16.effect on the economy. This is the camera crew remained strategy to
:06:17. > :06:20.say, never mind the romanticism of it, which is the Leave campaign main
:06:21. > :06:24.card, here are the hard nuts and bolts, this is what actually happens
:06:25. > :06:28.to the economy if you decide to make this decision. We have got a month
:06:29. > :06:34.of this to go, but I think the remaining campaign will focus almost
:06:35. > :06:39.exclusively on this because they can't read compete in terms of the
:06:40. > :06:44.romanticism and if we leave we will make Britain great again. They can't
:06:45. > :06:52.match that, but they can say, folks, think hard, it will cost you. Your
:06:53. > :06:59.mortgage, the country's economy is fragile. It won't be pretty, but it
:07:00. > :07:02.could be quite effective. This is project fear. Yesterday, George
:07:03. > :07:06.Osborne was saying house prices will drop 18%, now all the supermarket
:07:07. > :07:10.bosses are going to say ever they will get more expensive. The IMF is
:07:11. > :07:14.saying it is a disaster. I think there is a risk here that people get
:07:15. > :07:17.a bit sick of the doom mongering, and we have a lot of it is about
:07:18. > :07:24.whether we should join the euro or not, and if we don't join it it'll
:07:25. > :07:29.be a disaster. We had in Scotland around the referendum there, and
:07:30. > :07:31.there's a danger the public feel Banged Up Abroad the establishment.
:07:32. > :07:36.Of course these big businesses, being in the EU help them, but if
:07:37. > :07:40.you look at small businesses, they are less keen. They talk about the
:07:41. > :07:44.red tape and the amount of money it costs them. If you talk about the
:07:45. > :07:49.romanticism of the Leave campaign, that is also getting pretty grim.
:07:50. > :07:53.It's increasingly about immigration. All this scaremongering about
:07:54. > :07:59.Turkey. The cover of the Daily Express today. Yes, let's look at
:08:00. > :08:02.that now. 12 million Turkish people say they will come to the UK. Have
:08:03. > :08:08.they talked to all of them? This is a survey. They know them all
:08:09. > :08:13.personally. They are much more likely to go to Germany, in the
:08:14. > :08:17.unlikely event of Turkey joining the EU any time soon. Exactly. The level
:08:18. > :08:21.of debate on both sides is pretty pathetic. We have got a project fear
:08:22. > :08:25.going you are going to be skint, it is a disaster, and Vote Leave saying
:08:26. > :08:31.we are going to get swamped, these horrible phrases about the kind of
:08:32. > :08:34.people who will come here. And the Sunday express is really about how
:08:35. > :08:39.they are all criminals, murderers, they have higher rates of crime in
:08:40. > :08:48.Turkey, and all the students and unemployed are coming here. They
:08:49. > :08:50.have spoken to 2000 -- 2600 people, but to extrapolate that is 12
:08:51. > :09:01.million people arriving on our doors! Then there is a little thing
:09:02. > :09:05.from Nigel Farage. Their enthusiasm from the Germans or the French, and
:09:06. > :09:10.given away that Austrian politics are going today O'Groats really
:09:11. > :09:15.scary. There is always this assumption that if people can come
:09:16. > :09:19.to this country then they will. A lot of people will, but a lot of
:09:20. > :09:24.people won't. It is a big decision to move to another country. When you
:09:25. > :09:27.see a headline like this, it does its job, it attracts attention, but
:09:28. > :09:31.you really have to question it. I remember when he talked about
:09:32. > :09:37.Romanians coming here, the original figure was 29 million. That didn't
:09:38. > :09:41.happen either. The Blair government said yes we can open the EU to all
:09:42. > :09:46.these countries in Eastern Europe. I think they said it would be about
:09:47. > :09:52.40,000 people. It was more like 500,000 or a million, it has been a
:09:53. > :09:56.lot. I do think that people have rightful... That's because this is a
:09:57. > :10:00.great country! And London is a great centre and people want to be here.
:10:01. > :10:04.But it does not mean everyone wants to be here! When you get outside
:10:05. > :10:09.London, people are much more worried about it than they are in London. In
:10:10. > :10:12.London, we feel we are a melting pot, the whole world is in London
:10:13. > :10:18.and it is exciting, but out of London people worry about their
:10:19. > :10:22.jobs, they see their wages going down and they don't like it. The
:10:23. > :10:25.less familiar you are with immigration and how that can be
:10:26. > :10:31.great, the more worried you are about it. When the Leave campaign
:10:32. > :10:35.talk about project fear, will they talk about headlines like this? It
:10:36. > :10:40.is the other side of the coin. The level of debate is dire and we have
:10:41. > :10:46.got another month to go. The Battle of Britain on a 32 days to go, this
:10:47. > :10:52.is in the Mail on Sunday. This piece about Boris Johnson, there are some
:10:53. > :10:56.people quietly within the Leave campaign who think that he has not
:10:57. > :11:00.hit a lot of the right votes, that he is not the master of detail, and
:11:01. > :11:05.that the rhetoric has been wrong. What do you think? In a way, this is
:11:06. > :11:09.a little bit unsurprising. People who watched him as the Mayor of
:11:10. > :11:13.London, people who watched him closely won't be surprised at all.
:11:14. > :11:17.He is great entertainment and he adds great gaiety to our nation in
:11:18. > :11:20.terms of politics, but when has been a hot political issue to address, he
:11:21. > :11:25.has never been that good at doing it. It really was a risk making him
:11:26. > :11:31.the figurehead of the Leave campaign in the way that they have. There are
:11:32. > :11:35.several flaws. One of them is that Boris must always be Boris, so it's
:11:36. > :11:42.difficult for him to address a political subject in a sober way. In
:11:43. > :11:48.some ways, this is quite a sober argument. Boris almost takes the
:11:49. > :11:53.schoolboy throwing the stink bomb in the room approach, and that was
:11:54. > :11:59.never going to work. I think the wheels are coming off that as well,
:12:00. > :12:02.this does not look good for him. Him offering the Treasury job to three
:12:03. > :12:07.different MPs. What they are actually saying is that with all the
:12:08. > :12:12.shambling and the messing around, a does not look very statesman-like.
:12:13. > :12:16.Some senior Tories come out, like Michael Heseltine, what he is saying
:12:17. > :12:20.about the Hitler project unifying Europe last weekend showed a total
:12:21. > :12:25.lack of John O'Groats and the limerick about the Turkish
:12:26. > :12:30.president. It does not feel very statesman-like. Boris is funny and
:12:31. > :12:34.he is great, he is jolly company, but this is serious and he does not
:12:35. > :12:40.really seem to be making the transition to the politician that
:12:41. > :12:44.can reach parts other can't reach, the Heineken Boris. Someone who
:12:45. > :12:48.looks capable of being a leader. And that is a problem. The problem is he
:12:49. > :12:53.is brand Boris and he makes the cut relation that he is to Sirius and he
:12:54. > :12:55.will damage Rand Boris and he needs that for the future. It's
:12:56. > :13:02.interesting that the latest conservative survey, which had put
:13:03. > :13:07.him ahead as toys of leader, now put him behind Liam Fox. It is Willie
:13:08. > :13:13.not working. -- choice of leader. For me, one of the most interesting
:13:14. > :13:21.stories, students back back on freeze reach. Most students support
:13:22. > :13:26.a ban on people speaking offensively on campuses. What did you make of
:13:27. > :13:29.this question mark what is going on in our universities? 76% want
:13:30. > :13:35.speakers who they don't agree with, what they term offensive, they want
:13:36. > :13:43.them banned. We said earlier, what about Galileo, suggesting the Earth
:13:44. > :13:46.microbes he would have been banned. All Martin Luther. The whole point
:13:47. > :13:51.about university is to make everyone think about ideas that they they
:13:52. > :13:55.find unpalatable and to argue them out and to use rational debate and
:13:56. > :13:59.discussion to say, I may not agree with you, but this is how I demolish
:14:00. > :14:03.argument. Also, the whole point about free speech is that you may
:14:04. > :14:07.hear things that you find offensive, that is somebody else's freedom to
:14:08. > :14:10.say it. So the idea that the place where somebody goes to expand their
:14:11. > :14:17.mind becomes a place where nothing offensive can ever be mentioned is
:14:18. > :14:20.appalling. We need a campaign for real students! I don't mind the fact
:14:21. > :14:24.they object to a lot of this stuff, but what real students do is to get
:14:25. > :14:29.the speaker come and then give them a really hard time. Exactly! You
:14:30. > :14:33.note there may be a picket outside, or someone with a bucket full of
:14:34. > :14:40.rotten fruit, but that was the point of it. It is not like in our day! It
:14:41. > :14:44.is this health and safety culture gone mad. Is this the generation
:14:45. > :14:47.that have been brought up in such a coddled way that they feel that
:14:48. > :14:50.their human rights are offended if somebody says something that they
:14:51. > :14:56.don't agree with? It is ready worrying and narrowing. The Times
:14:57. > :15:01.had a front-page story this week about students at a certain
:15:02. > :15:04.university being forbidden for throwing mortarboards in the air for
:15:05. > :15:07.a photograph because they could be injured, but they could pretend to
:15:08. > :15:12.do so and they would photo shop them in. But isn't that all about what it
:15:13. > :15:18.looks like and not what it is? That's another thing. The other
:15:19. > :15:24.story is a school bans whistles as to offensive or aggressive soap
:15:25. > :15:29.schools can't blow a whistle at the end of break time because pupils
:15:30. > :15:36.find it scary. The world is a tough place. There is a lack of confidence
:15:37. > :15:39.in some places, universities don't have confidence that their students
:15:40. > :15:42.can adapt and deal with this. And students don't seem to have
:15:43. > :15:47.confidence in themselves. There were people who said Donald Trump, his
:15:48. > :15:51.views many people disagree with, should not be allowed to come to the
:15:52. > :15:54.United Kingdom. He could be the president of the United States. It
:15:55. > :15:58.would be interesting to see who wants to ban him then. You can't
:15:59. > :16:02.lock yourself in a cupboard with earphones on saying, I can't hear
:16:03. > :16:06.you, none of this exists. It is pathetic and not grown up. This is a
:16:07. > :16:09.point where they are meant to be spreading their intellectual wings
:16:10. > :16:15.and trying to understand things. We are going to end up with the Sunday
:16:16. > :16:22.Times Magazine. Young attractive educated female and single, she
:16:23. > :16:26.relents the man drought. Yes, women now outnumber men at British
:16:27. > :16:33.universities. By the time they graduate, there are 29% more women
:16:34. > :16:37.than men. This young woman is writing about what that means in
:16:38. > :16:43.your 20s when there are so many less men who might be the kind of people
:16:44. > :16:49.that might end up as your long-term partner. It is called assault if --
:16:50. > :16:54.she has written a very good piece about that, and I think there is a
:16:55. > :16:57.kind of irony in all these women who have done so well, and now they find
:16:58. > :17:05.themselves slightly marooned. We call it left on the shelf. This is a
:17:06. > :17:12.blatant plug because I am editor of the magazine, but it is a really
:17:13. > :17:20.good piece! So there are no attractive plumbers? Opposite track.
:17:21. > :17:25.There are fewer male students, beware the alert mortarboards. It is
:17:26. > :17:29.all the girls faults! It is all gone mad. Thank you, that is it for the
:17:30. > :17:36.papers.